The lesson of the substitute teacher who stole Christmas

Via:  johnrussell  •  4 days ago  •  223 comments

The lesson of the substitute teacher who stole Christmas
The principal of Cedar Hill Elementary School in Montville, New Jersey, is apologizing to parents after a substitute teacher told first graders that Santa Claus isn't real.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


The principal of Cedar Hill Elementary School in Montville, New Jersey, is apologizing to parents after a substitute teacher told first graders that Santa Claus isn't real.

According to a Facebook post by a devastated parent, the teacher told aghast and agog children that, in fact, parents buy the presents, reindeer can't fly, elves aren't real, and the popular Elf on the Shelf doll is just a toy that parents move around.

This heartless woman even shattered the illusions derived from other childhood fairy tales, from the Tooth Fairy to the Easter Bunny.

Now, an entire class of schoolchildren will no longer know the untold fulfillment of believing in mythical creatures who aim to guide their moral character, reward good behavior and fill their hearts with endless wonder and joy.

While it's unclear why this substitute teacher felt compelled to dismantle these children's harmless fantasies in a matter of minutes -- maybe she was having a bad day, maybe she was wronged by a rotten Tooth Fairy, maybe she felt like she was preparing gullible kiddos for the harsh realities of life -- what she did was wrong and inexcusable. And it was just plain mean.

But among the many laments about our public education system, the aberrant Ebenezer Sub who ruins Christmas is nowhere near the top of the list.

As a kid who moved a lot, I went to all kinds of schools, including public, private, magnet, Catholic and single-sex. Some of the best schools I attended were public — just like the one where the over-sharing sub taught. Her actions point up a problem that this ghost of Christmas future might portend: As parents, we've long ceded far too much authority to our schools, and we are starting to see the results.

Public elementary schools should be places to learn what parents cannot teach. Even if we, as adults, already know what our kids are only just learning, we don't always know how to teach it to them ourselves — how to read or multiply, perform chemical reactions or process centuries of world history. And for those of us who work, we certainly don't have the time.

But the things that all parents can teach their kids -- moral values, tolerance, and what not to put in their bodies -- should be left to them. Instead, these topics are codified into curriculum, and parents expect, and indeed demand, that they are taught.

Public school sex education, for instance, was born out of a 1919 US Department of Labor report suggesting that educating young men about sex could have better prevented STDs in soldiers. The very next year it was introduced in high schools. Somewhere along the way it trickled down to middle school, elementary school and even kindergarten, and vastly expanded its purview to include everything from pornography to gay rights. Some schools have introduced graphic sex ed plans that walk children through things like the benefits of lubrication and increasing pleasure during sex.

This gradual and ever-increasing reliance on public school to teach kids not only about the birds and the bees, but also the LGBTQs and the Big Os, has led to some next-level absurdity.

And one Rhode Island mom and education writer wanted public schools to teach the idea of consent to kindergartners because a local toddler kept kissing her 4-year-old.

The overexposure to sex advice, rather than education, in public schools, cuts the other way, too. A majority of school districts in Georgia, despite hundreds of student requests for science-based sex programs, still instruct students to save sex for marriage.

Sex advice is for parents to offer, not public school teachers. So, too, are lessons about tolerance and inclusion, ideas about gender fluidity, and drug and alcohol abuse, experimentation or avoidance.

Nevertheless, teachers are taking these lessons into their own hands. In a California charter school, a kindergarten teacher held a "transition ceremony" to celebrate a 5-year-old boy's decision to identify as a girl. California law requires parental consent in matters of sex education, but the school argued this had to do with "gender identity," which the school district says falls under their "tolerance and diversity" curriculum, raising the question: Why do schools have a tolerance and diversity curriculum?

They certainly won't if they know their schools will do it for them. So rather than insist our schools keep expanding the range and scope of what they teach our kids, so that eventually they'll have nothing to learn at home, shouldn't we spend more energy compelling parents to teach these important lessons in the ways they feel are age-appropriate and consistent with their own values?

The usual arguments over public school curricula often center around religion. Like history and literature, public schools should teach religion -- but they should not teach faith. That is the difference. Like science, teach sex -- but not sexual morality.

When we cede so much authority to schools, it's no wonder they often overstep and run into these invisible boundaries between home lessons and school lessons. It's also no wonder the homeschooling movement is booming.

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, a federal organization that collects and analyzes education-related data, in 2012 there were only 1.8 million children who were homeschooled. The National Home Education Research Institute, which conducts research on homeschooling, estimates the practice has grown at a rate of 3% to 8% a year.

That's not an option for everyone, but it's hard to blame parents for wanting more control over their children's coursework when any of it is devoted to lessons best learned at home.

That includes whether and how to tell your innocent babes that Santa isn't real, or that God isn't either. The sub who stole Christmas shouldn't do the job of parents -- but too many schools already are.

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JohnRussell
1  seeder  JohnRussell    4 days ago
A substitute teacher at a New Jersey elementary school may get put on the naughty list after telling a class that Santa Claus is not real and the presents left under the Christmas tree are put there by their parents.

Michael J. Raj, the principal of Cedar Hill Elementary School in Towaco in Morris County, told parents in a letter that the incident happened Thursday, and the school had talked to the substitute "regarding her poor judgment in making this proclamation," NJ.com reported.

"As a father of four myself, I am truly aware of the sensitive nature of this announcement," he said. "On behalf of Cedar Hill School, I apologize for this incident."

Raj said he wanted to alert parents of the situation in case their children bring it up.

"If the conversation comes up at home over the next few days you can take appropriate steps to maintain the childhood innocence of the holiday season," he wrote in the letter.

Parent Lisa Simek wrote on Facebook that the teacher began by asking the class what holiday was coming up. When the kids answered that Christmas was the next holiday, the teacher "proceeded to just completely unleash on them," Simek posted.

"She told them Santa isn’t real and parents just buy presents and put them under their tree," wrote Simek, whose 6-year-old daughter was in the class. "She told them reindeer can’t fly and elves are not real."

The substitute didn't stop there and also told the class that the tooth fairy and Easter Bunny don't exist, according to Simek's post.

"A grown woman tried to crush our 6-year-old's spirit, along with the spirits of the other 22 kids in CH’s 1st Grade class. Many of us parents have been doing damage control since the kids get home from school today," she said.

Another parent, Mayra Aboyoun, posted in a Montville Moms Facebook group that her daughter was "heartbroken," according to local outlet Tap into Montville.

Aboyoun told the outlet that she tried to remedy the situation by taking her daughter to see Santa at a local event and telling her that the substitute was Santa's evil counterpart and "will not be returning."

Raj told NJ.com that the substitute has worked in the Montville school district for a few years, but it is uncertain if she will be invited back to teach at Cedar Hill.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/substitute-teacher-tells-1st-grade-class-santa-isn-t-real-n943201
 
 
squiggy
1.1  squiggy  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 days ago
after telling a class that Santa Claus is not real

The illuminati do that here daily in one way or another - parade pissers, mind vandals.

 
 
JohnRussell
2  seeder  JohnRussell    4 days ago

I believe that most kids stop believing in Santa Claus when they are 8 or 9.  First graders are 6 .

What can we call this woman but mean-spirited ?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @2    4 days ago

Some might call her a realist, an atheist, or perhaps something worse.

I mean, the same people who don't believe in God must be celebrating this woman's decision right now.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
2.1.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1    3 days ago

I mean, the same people who don't believe in God must be celebrating this woman's decision right now.

Lol.  Because telling your child that Santa is real is the same thing as telling them that God is real?  Every single child that has ever been born eventually comes to the conclusion that Santa is not real.  Your comment is just another idiotic snipe at atheists.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @2.1.1    3 days ago

No, it is reality.

Why have a Santa Claus if you don't believe in Christ? 

There is no Christmas without Christ.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
2.1.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @2.1.1    3 days ago
Every single child that has ever been born eventually comes to the conclusion that Santa is not real.

Which for many intelligent adults eventually extends to the lies they were told about another imaginary character who sees you when you're sleeping, and knows when you're awake, knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
2.1.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    3 days ago
Why have a Santa Claus if you don't believe in Christ?  There is no Christmas without Christ.

Why have a Santa Claus if you DO believe in Christ? 

Is there no Christmas without Santa?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.1.4    3 days ago

If you don't believe in Christ, what is the point of Christmas?

But I get it--it is probably easier to destroy some kid's harmless belief in Santa Claus than supporting a kid and his imagination.

Carry on!

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
2.1.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.5    3 days ago
it is probably easier to destroy some kid's harmless belief in Santa Claus than supporting a kid and his imagination.

You just said if you don't believe in Christ, what's the point of Christmas, then you claim it's destroying a child's imagination. Is Christmas just a tool Christians use to open their children's minds to the fantasy religious world they exist in? A child's imagination is alive and well without parents lying to them about a jolly fat man. If you want to lie to your kids there's plenty of other ways to do it too. Tell them when it rains it's because God is crying, probably because of something they did, that's just as effective as telling them an obese bearded man in suspenders is always watching them.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.1.6    3 days ago

What possible difference could it ever make to someone such as yourself WHAT Christians believe?

 
 
Trout Giggles
2.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.7    3 days ago

What possible difference does it make to you if non-believers celebrate Christmas?

 
 
arkpdx
2.1.9  arkpdx  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.7    3 days ago

I have asked that same question several times and I am still waiting for an answer. 

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.10  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    3 days ago
There is no Christmas without Christ.

It was called Yule long before the Christians stole it from the Pagan's and, Santa was known as the Yule King in some cultures or, for those who needed a demon type, Krampus.

 
 
Trout Giggles
2.1.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  arkpdx @2.1.9    3 days ago

Because we non-believers like the giving aspect of the season and spending time with family and friends. We don't need Jesus for that

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.12  Texan1211  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.8    3 days ago

it would be very hypocritical of them to do so.

Duh.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.13  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.10    3 days ago
It was called Yule long before the Christians stole it from the Pagan's and, Santa was known as the Yule King in some cultures or, for those who needed a demon type,

Where I come from, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Period.

 
 
Trout Giggles
2.1.14  Trout Giggles  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.12    3 days ago

I don't see it that way. Christmas is not just about Jesus and the Christian religion.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.15  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.5    3 days ago
If you don't believe in Christ, what is the point of Christmas? But I get it--it is probably easier to destroy some kid's harmless belief in Santa Claus than supporting a kid and his imagination.

Maybe a little ancient history for you will help, maybe not,

https://www.paganspath.com/magik/yule-history.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

 
 
Trout Giggles
2.1.16  Trout Giggles  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.13    3 days ago

Well, good for you! I don't see anybody here trying to tell you that you have to believe otherwise.

Some of us simply like the spirit of the season. We don't need Jesus to make it meaningful

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.17  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.13    3 days ago
Where I come from, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Period.

And, because of this lie the birth date of Christ was lost about 1400 years ago.

 
 
devangelical
2.1.18  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.13    3 days ago

... with a revised birthdate to complete the hostile takeover of another pagan holiday. sorry, but the religiously challenged are only allowed to revise their own history, not world history.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.19  Texan1211  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.14    3 days ago

What do you believe Christmas is about if not Jesus?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.20  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @2.1.18    3 days ago

Damn, 2000+ years later, and you pagans STILL can't get over it?

And what exactly prevented any pagans from celebrating whatever holiday they wanted?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.21  Texan1211  replied to  Trout Giggles @2.1.16    3 days ago

Winter has a spirit now?

Who knew!

 
 
devangelical
2.1.22  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.20    3 days ago

how about easter next. a good metaphor would be the racist tea party claiming veteran's day as tea party patriot day too, and then saying the previously planned parades were really for them. without stealing established pagan celebration time frames, the then fledgling xtian celebrations would be represented by petrified lion shit.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
2.1.23  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    3 days ago

There is no Christmas without Christ.

And yet Christians had to co-opt a widely practiced pre-existing holiday as their own.  There is plenty of winter solstice without Christ, and always has been.

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.24  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.2    3 days ago
Why have a Santa Claus if you don't believe in Christ? 

Why not just let parents have fun with their kids. It's fun. It certainly isn't hurting the crabby, evangelizing atheists in the world who get up in the morning and think "how can I ruin a family's day today?"

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.25  Tacos!  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.10    3 days ago
before the Christians stole it from the Pagan's

No one stole anything from pagans. The pagans are still free to celebrate whatever they want however they want.

Unless you mean they got an idea for celebration from someone else, in which case: so effing what? You never got an idea of how to have fun by watching someone else have fun?

Or do you even do fun?

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.26  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.25    2 days ago
No one stole anything from pagans. The pagans are still free to celebrate whatever they want however they want.

Yes, they did, Christians claim that Christmas the birth date of Jesus but, it really isn't, it is in Pagan beliefs the birth date of one of our gods. Using the Yule season was the way the Christians at the time convince many Pagans that Jesus was the same as their gods and, Christianity was the one true religion, in other words they lied to the Pagans to get them to become Christians. I thought lying was against Christian beliefs. Jesus was actually born in September on the 5th day of the month. Here, let me show you,

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Jesus-Birthday

Unless you mean they got an idea for celebration from someone else, in which case: so effing what? You never got an idea of how to have fun by watching someone else have fun?

Now, not only did the Christians decide to take a Pagan holiday but, they also coopted many of their traditions in that holiday. The "Christmas tree" and, the wreaths, the use of holly and, the use of Mistletoe, Santa Clause even all came from the celebration of Yule which was never Christian.

What does it say in Deuteronomy about following Pagan traditions? Oh Yeah,

DEUTERONOMY 12:28 "Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. 29 When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' 31 "You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (NKJV)

It seems in celebrating Christmas on the 25th of December Christians have broken a law of Yahweh. Oooops!

I don't care myself when you celebrate Jesus's birthday or, what traditions you wish to follow but, it would seem that both Jesus and, Yahweh would be pissed that you celebrate the birth of Jesus on a Pagan holiday following Pagan traditions. I'm sure Odin likes the idea that you are celebrating his Wild Hunt though.

Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a festival observed by the historical Germanic peoples. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdraniht. It later underwent Christianized reformulation resulting in the term Christmastide.
Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for the holidays of this season. Today Yule is also used to a lesser extent in the English-speaking world as a synonym for Christmas. Present-day Christmas customs and traditions such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from pagan Yule. Today the event is celebrated in Heathenry and some other forms of Modern Paganism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

 
 
Gordy327
2.1.27  Gordy327  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.1.3    2 days ago

Santa sounds like a stalker, watching everything you do, Lol

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.28  Tacos!  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.26    2 days ago
Yes, they did, Christians claim that Christmas the birth date of Jesus

Which Christians? I don't know one church that thinks Jesus was actually born on December 25th. It's simply the day we have chosen to celebrate it. People do this all the time with celebrations. The date is not what matters.

they also coopted many of their traditions in that holiday

It amazes that the some people are always so eager to take something ordinary and try to repackage it as a scandal. I have the same response to the last time you made this claim: so effing what?

It seems in celebrating Christmas on the 25th of December Christians have broken a law of Yahweh. Oooops!

If you actually knew anything about Christianity, you'd know we aren't worried about following every rule in Deuteronomy. Not even Jews think following every one of those rules is some kind of ticket to Heaven. You have some studying to do.

I don't care myself when you celebrate Jesus's birthday or, what traditions you wish to follow

Don't flatter yourself. You clearly do care or you wouldn't be trying to so hard to defend the cruelty we see in this seed. You also wouldn't be ranting about Christians "stealing" things from other cultures or employing flimsy internet arguments rooted in ignorance to try and trash Christianity and Christians generally.

 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.29  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.28    2 days ago
The date is not what matters.

You might want to tell the "Jesus is the reason for the season" folks.

 
 
epistte
2.1.30  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.25    2 days ago
No one stole anything from pagans. The pagans are still free to celebrate whatever they want however they want.

Unless you mean they got an idea for celebration from someone else, in which case: so effing what? You never got an idea of how to have fun by watching someone else have fun?

Or do you even do fun?

Jesus was not born on Decemeber 25th so why did the Christian church move his supposed birthday to coincide the major early winter holiday w that was the dominant festival at the time?  All of the symbolism of Christmas is Pagan in origin, just as the symbolism of Easter is also Pagan.  Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday and getting mad that people don't call it Christmas when in fact it is actually a pagan holiday.  Irony, thy name is religious belief. 

Researchers believe the Roman Catholic Church settled on Dec. 25 for many reasons, such as that date's ties to the winter solstice and Saturnalia, a festival dedicated to the Roman deity Saturn. By choosing this day to celebrate Jesus' birthday, the church could co-opt the popular pagan festival, as well as the winter celebrations of other pagan religions.

December 25th is the first day that daylight begins lengthen after the solstice of the 21st. That is why the son/sun is born. 

 
 
epistte
2.1.31  epistte  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.29    2 days ago
You might want to tell the "Jesus is the reason for the season" folks.

Retail quarterly profits are the reason for the season.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.32  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.28    2 days ago
Don't flatter yourself. You clearly do care or you wouldn't be trying to so hard to defend the cruelty we see in this seed. You also wouldn't be ranting about Christians "stealing" things from other cultures or employing flimsy internet arguments rooted in ignorance to try and trash Christianity and Christians generally.

Oh  gosh, I'm so hurt by your anger.....not really. Who's defending the "cruelty we see in this seed", keep reading on down the line here, you'll find a comment of mine that explains how I feel and, it ain't defending this seed. I'm simply stating history, you know, that thing you're ignoring here?

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.33  Tacos!  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.32    2 days ago
your anger

You either have quite an ego or quite an imagination. I don't where you got the idea that I am angry at you. I disagree with you. That's all.

I'm simply stating history, you know, that thing you're ignoring here?

You're not "simply" stating anything. You state it to make a point. You state it for a reason, and that reason is not to generously educate people. It's to attack them. That's why you use accusatory and demonizing language like Christians "stealing", "lying" or "taking." Your "simple" statements of history are all about attacking Christians and Christmas.

 
 
SteevieGee
2.1.34  SteevieGee  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1    yesterday

Oh the horror of being called an atheist.  What could be worse than that?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.35  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.33    9 hours ago
You're not "simply" stating anything. You state it to make a point. You state it for a reason, and that reason is not to generously educate people. It's to attack them. That's why you use accusatory and demonizing language like Christians "stealing", "lying" or "taking." Your "simple" statements of history are all about attacking Christians and Christmas.

Some things will never change.

If the people who don't believe in God would simply live and let live, there would be far less arguments here.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.36  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.15    9 hours ago

That history is real nice and all, but I don't think you'll convince any adult that Christians are celebrating anything other than the birth of Christ on Christmas.

Mainly because they aren't, of course.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.37  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.36    9 hours ago
That history is real nice and all, but I don't think you'll convince any adult that Christians are celebrating anything other than the birth of Christ on Christmas.

Sooo, ignore history is your answer?

Mainly because they aren't, of course.

Of course they aren't celebrating Christs birthday, that's why Christians call it Christmas because they aren't celebrating a mistaken belief that Jesus was born on December 25th. jrSmiley_23_smiley_image.gif

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.38  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.35    9 hours ago
If the people who don't believe in God would simply live and let live, there would be far less arguments here.

Don't even go there, I believe in Yahweh, I just don't believe in repeating lies that have been in existence since the church put the Bible together out of different books in the Hebrew religion and, then added writing from some Christians that happened to hanging around and, calling it the gospel.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.39  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.37    4 hours ago
That history is real nice and all, but I don't think you'll convince any adult that Christians are celebrating anything other than the birth of Christ on Christmas. Sooo, ignore history is your answer?
Mainly because they aren't, of course.
Of course they aren't celebrating Christs birthday, that's why Christians call it Christmas because they aren't celebrating a mistaken belief that Jesus was born on December 25th.

If Christians aren't celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th, what do YOU think they are celebrating?

WTF are you going on about now?

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.40  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.38    4 hours ago
Don't even go there, I believe in Yahweh, I just don't believe in repeating lies that have been in existence since the church put the Bible together out of different books in the Hebrew religion and, then added writing from some Christians that happened to hanging around and, calling it the gospel.

As far as I can tell, no one has asked you to spread a lie or do anything at all.

If you take that upon yourself, then that's on you.

Your comment is a fine example of exactly what I was speaking of.

Good job.

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.41  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.35    4 hours ago
If the people who don't believe in God would simply live and let live, there would be far less arguments here.

The great irony is that they accuse Christians of ramming religion down their throats.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.42  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.41    4 hours ago

Yep, exactly right.

The self-professed "tolerant" people are proving themselves to be anything BUT tolerant.

 
 
epistte
2.1.43  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.41    3 hours ago
The great irony is that they accuse Christians of ramming religion down their throats.

That goes both ways. Keep your beliefs to yourself and stop trying to make them public policy issues. 

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.44  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @2.1.43    2 hours ago

That's garbage. There's no policy preventing you from being a militant atheist or attacking atheist children and families for their traditions (whatever they might be).

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.45  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.39    an hour ago
If Christians aren't celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th, what do YOU think they are celebrating? WTF are you going on about now?

Texan, two things about my post that you seem to be forgetting, the part that ends with the sentence, "Mainly because they aren't, of course.", is the part that you wrote, my part which is, "Of course they aren't celebrating Christs birthday, that's why Christians call it Christmas because they aren't celebrating a mistaken belief that Jesus was born on December 25th." Is sarcasm, as suggested by the emoticon I added at the end.

 
 
epistte
2.1.46  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.44    an hour ago
That's garbage. There's no policy preventing you from being a militant atheist or attacking atheist children and families for their traditions (whatever they might be).

If there are government policies that support or endorsing one religion over another or religious belief over non-belief then we do not have equal religious rights and both the Free Exercise Clause and the concept of the separation of church and state are not being obeyed. The First Amendment is not just a suggestion for you or anyone else, so the state is to be absolutely neutral on religious belief for the protection of both secular and religious rights of all people and not just the Christian majority who believe as you seem to do.    How many times does it need to be rubbed in your face that if we swapped your Christian ideas for Islam, Hindu, or pagan beliefs in public policy that you would scream loud enough to be heard by the Voyager satellites, but you have no problem forcing your beliefs on others when you seek to legislate and then weaponize them.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.47  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.40    an hour ago
As far as I can tell, no one has asked you to spread a lie or do anything at all.

If you take that upon yourself, then that's on you.

Your comment is a fine example of exactly what I was speaking of.

And, here you go again showing that you can't follow a simple conversation. Please go back and,, look at what you posted to Tacos and, what Tacos said in reply to me.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.48  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.41    an hour ago
If the people who don't believe in God would simply live and let live, there would be far less arguments here.
The great irony is that they accuse Christians of ramming religion down their throats.

Interesting way to try to turn it on those who wish that certain people would leave religion out of the government. You go ahead and, believe whatever fairy tale you wish to believe but, remember, history knows the truth.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.49  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.42    an hour ago
The self-professed "tolerant" people are proving themselves to be anything BUT tolerant.

You all should really try harder to be more tolerant then shouldn't you.

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.50  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @2.1.46    an hour ago
How many times does it need to be rubbed in your face

Yes, you people do so love to try and rub stuff in our faces. That's sorta the theme of this seed - a shining example of exactly that.

if we swapped your Christian ideas for Islam, Hindu, or pagan beliefs in public policy

Such as?

 
 
Tacos!
2.1.51  Tacos!  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.48    an hour ago
wish that certain people would leave religion out of the government

It's not in government. It's in the people who are in government. Their ideas and opinions are going to come from somewhere. Better to have people in government who rely on timeless principles than to have people who just do whatever feels good in the moment.

 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.52  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.51    an hour ago
Better to have people in government who rely on timeless principles

Like slavery and genocide?

Yeah, that always works out well.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.53  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.47    an hour ago
And, here you go again showing that you can't follow a simple conversation. Please go back and,, look at what you posted to Tacos and, what Tacos said in reply to me.

I understand English quite well, thanks.

If I need help I'll let you know.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.54  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.49    an hour ago
You all should really try harder to be more tolerant then shouldn't you

Got it. Like the teacher in this article, right?

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.55  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.50    49 minutes ago
if we swapped your Christian ideas for Islam, Hindu, or pagan beliefs in public policy
Such as?

Let's start with certain states bathroom laws like in North Carolina, then lets move on to so called "religious rights laws" like in Indiana.

 
 
epistte
2.1.56  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @2.1.50    48 minutes ago
Yes, you people do so love to try and rub stuff in our faces. That's sorta the theme of this seed - a shining example of exactly that. such as?

The Islamic, Hindu, and Pagan equivalent of banning abortion, mandatory public school prayer, attacks on LGBT people, and limiting both the secular and religious rights of others in favor of conservative Christian rights that hide behind the Religious Freedom Restoration euphemism.  Your ideas are the start of the Christian equivalent of ISIL, the Saudi religious enforcers and the Taliban. The fact that not even all Protestant Christian churches agree with these very conservative ideas seems to be lost on you, or maybe you don't care about others as long as you get the power to enforce your ideas.  You are not supporting Christian beliefs but instead, you are seeking to create a fundamentalist Christian theorcracy to protect and enforce the conservative patriarchal social structure that you see as being threatened by 21st-century social change.  

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.57  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.54    47 minutes ago
Got it. Like the teacher in this article, right?

Did I MENTION the teacher in this article? No, that was you who did that.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.58  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  epistte @2.1.56    44 minutes ago

Bravo, well said.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.59  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.57    40 minutes ago
Did I MENTION the teacher in this article? No, that was you who did that.

She IS the topic, correct? You read the article right?

I know what a stickler you are on your articles for sticking to the topic.

I guess that only applies sometimes, huh?

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
2.1.60  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @2.1.59    32 minutes ago
I know what a stickler you are on your articles for sticking to the topic. I guess that only applies sometimes, huh?

Start at the top of this fucking thread and, then come back and, talk to me, until then, good bye.

 
 
Texan1211
2.1.61  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.60    26 minutes ago
I believe that most kids stop believing in Santa Claus when they are 8 or 9.  First graders are 6 . What can we call this woman but mean-spirited ?

Here it is.

Looks like the topic is the teacher, what she did, and little kids believing in Santa Claus.

Anything else I can clear up for you?

 
 
epistte
2.1.62  epistte  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @2.1.58    15 minutes ago
Bravo, well said.

Thank you very much for those kind words.  I'm certain that you know the story about a blind squirrel and a nut..............

 
 
epistte
2.1.63  epistte  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.1.52    12 minutes ago
Like slavery and genocide? Yeah, that always works out well.

Roasting witches and others as heretics is a known Christian principle.

 
 
Split Personality
2.1.64  Split Personality  replied to  epistte @2.1.63    a minute ago

The True Meaning Of Christ-Mass

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract4.html

by pastor David J Myer

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
2.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @2    3 days ago
What can we call this woman but mean-spirited ?

Honest? Unwilling to lie to children?

 
 
JohnRussell
2.2.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.2    3 days ago

Most children in this culture are taught to believe in Santa Claus and I believe that most 1st graders still do.

It is hardly her place to ruin Christmas for these families.

There are probably a few homely children in her class. Does "honesty" require her to tell them they are weird looking?

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
2.2.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.1    3 days ago
Does "honesty" require her to tell them they are weird looking?

While I agree, the topic shouldn't ever be brought up in public school, if directly asked her beliefs I see no reason why she should be forced to lie.

 
 
CometRider
2.2.3  CometRider  replied to  JohnRussell @2.2.1    3 days ago

I don't know why, but I never did believe in Santa Clause. My parents did their best to install that belief in me I just never bought into it.

 
 
Tacos!
2.2.4  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.2    3 days ago
Honest? Unwilling to lie to children?

I'll go with arrogant and disrespectful. She didn't have a professional need to talk about Santa at all.

 
 
Tacos!
2.2.5  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.2.2    3 days ago
if directly asked her beliefs

The answer is "We're not here to talk about my beliefs. We're here to do schoolwork."

 
 
epistte
2.2.6  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @2.2.4    2 days ago
I'll go with arrogant and disrespectful. She didn't have a professional need to talk about Santa at all.

We know that the basis of the Santa Claus myth actually existed, unlike Jesus. 

The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in the village of Patara. At the time the area was Greek and is now on the southern coast of Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships. Under the Roman Emperor Diocletian, who ruthlessly persecuted Christians, Bishop Nicholas suffered for his faith, was exiled and imprisoned. The prisons were so full of bishops, priests, and deacons, there was no room for the real criminals—murderers, thieves and robbers. After his release, Nicholas attended the Council of Nicaea in AD 325. He died December 6, AD 343 in Myra and was buried in his cathedral church, where a unique relic, called manna, formed in his grave. This liquid substance, said to have healing powers, fostered the growth of devotion to Nicholas. The anniversary of his death became a day of celebration, St. Nicholas Day, December 6th (December 19 on the Julian Calendar).
 
 
Tacos!
2.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @2.2.6    2 days ago
We know that the basis of the Santa Claus myth actually existed, unlike Jesus. 

This comment and your quote, which I won't read, have nothing to do with my comment that you are replying to. If you want to change topics, maybe try posting your own original comment.

 
 
JBB
3  JBB    4 days ago

In third grade using an encyclopedia and the dictionary as proof I made my case to the class that Santa was, "Mythical", and thus not real. Many tears were shed and later my parents received several angry phone calls...

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  JBB @3    4 days ago

were you proud of yourself?

 
 
321steve
3.1.1  321steve  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1    4 days ago
were you proud of yourself?

Proving anything to a group at 9 or 10 years old, I would be.

Reality is reality. And yeah I get it.

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve @3.1.1    3 days ago

Reality is "Life's A Bitch And Then You Die". 

Claiming that something must be done because we can't have children accepting fantasy is wrong thinking. Mythology plays a very important part in healthy human psychology.

 
 
321steve
3.1.3  321steve  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.2    3 days ago
Claiming that something must be done because we can't have children accepting fantasy is wrong thinking.

John, I see this particular incident as one where a child figured out the truth and was anjous to  share it.  I dont blame them.

As far as presenting their findings to a group I'm sure that child had no idea of what he was doig. But to be able to make your case so well at that age is an achievement in my book even if it was misdirected and as you put it wrong. 

Mythology plays a very important part in healthy human psychology.

Personally I have had better results learning to deal with and living in reality. 

In today's world of modern technology fantasy and reality are harder than ever to distinguish between , The cartoons we watched, you knew they were fake, not so much today. 

Today I'd say we have plenty of non reality, so much some have a hell of a time dealing with the real thing. 

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.2    3 days ago
Mythology plays a very important part in healthy human psychology

I agree, as long as it's always presented as mythology. I told my two daughters that I will never lie to them, and so far I haven't. There are thing's I haven't told them of course, I don't need to fill their heads with every little detail about adult life, but I see no reason to lie to children simply for expedience's sake. I told them they can ask me anything and I will answer truthfully, just don't ask something they really don't want to hear about.

While we can have great fun with our Children using their imaginations, make believe, fantasy, fiction, fairy tales, all of them are healthy and wonderful for kids, as long as you don't try and pass any of them off as truth. As soon as they're old enough to find out you've been lying to them, they'll have learned one additional fact along with Santa not being real, that their parents are liars. It's what I took away from the experience as a 7 year old learning Santa wasn't real from my older brother. From then on I had a sliver of doubt in virtually everything my pastor father would preach. "If they lied to me about that, what else have they been lying about?" I thought to myself. And thank goodness I did. It was their lies that eventually lead me to question the Christian faith, examine it, study it and eventually abandon it as the flawed fantasy that it is. So go ahead, lie to your kids, it's your prerogative. But remember, they might just question your entire faith as I did because you claim on one hand that Satan exists and is the father of the lie, then you tell them Santa exists and then later find out you're lying.

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.5  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve @3.1.3    3 days ago
Personally I have had better results learning to deal with and living in reality. 

Irrelevant.

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.6  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.4    3 days ago

I found out Santa wasn't real when I woke up in the middle of Christmas Eve night and saw my mother and father laying the kids toys out under the tree. I was probably 8 or 9, I don't exactly remember.

Didn't bother me a bit that they had been "liars" all those years.

-

Santa Claus is real.

DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
Papa says, ‘If you see it in THE SUN it’s so.’
Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?

VIRGINIA O’HANLON.
115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET.

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
 
 
321steve
3.1.7  321steve  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.5    3 days ago
Personally I have had better results learning to deal with and living in reality. 
Irrelevant.

LOL Yeah irrelevant If ya live in cartoon land maybe, But here in reality its been a real benefit. 

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.8  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  321steve @3.1.7    3 days ago

You are the one relating your experiences in reality with kids believing in Santa Claus.  Hundreds of millions of kids around the world believe in Santa Claus when they are young. It doesn't harm them a bit.

The fact that an adult such as yourself would rather live in "reality" is irrelevant to that.

 
 
321steve
3.1.9  321steve  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.8    3 days ago
The fact that an adult such as yourself would rather live in "reality" is irrelevant to that.

Sooner or later we all end up here. Like it or not. Even if its the last breath a person takes. 

There really is no way to avoid reality. IMO" The soon a human realizes that the better off they are. 

Yeah let the kids enjoy the fantastic but at some point they need to understand reality or it will crush them. 

IMO" We support enough people that never learned how to deal with reality. 

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.10  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.6    3 days ago
Didn't bother me a bit that they had been "liars" all those years

And that's fine, not everyone was as precocious as I was at 7.

As for the story, the very first line is a lie, why would any intelligent 8 year old read any further?

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.11  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.10    3 days ago

What is a lie?

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.12  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.11    3 days ago
What is a lie?

"VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong." The very first sentence was a blatant lie, and slanderous to boot. He just falsely accused her friends of being liars.

Also, what eight year old would say "Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.". Why wouldn't she just call them her friends? Smells rather contrived if you ask me.

 
 
JohnRussell
3.1.13  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.12    3 days ago
Also, what eight year old would say "Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.". Why wouldn't she just call them her friends? Smells rather contrived if you ask me.

I'm not that familiar with how 8 year olds writing letters to the editor may have phrased things in the late 19th century.  Maybe her parents helped her form the letter.

The editor isn't lying when he says the girl's friends are wrong. The rest of his response explains why he said that.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.14  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.13    3 days ago
The editor isn't lying when he says the girl's friends are wrong. The rest of his response explains why he said that.
"He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus."
Nope, the world would be just as exciting without Santa, billions of people around the world do not celebrate or even know of the jolly fat man.
"There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence."
Again, total nonsense. All those things exist apart from Santa.
I get it, it's a cute letter about fantasy, but it's still a lie, Santa isn't real and he's none of those things. The Santa kids today imagine is nothing but a mascot created by marketing experts to sell Christmas (along with merchants products) to kids and parents across America. And this editorial plays right into that.
 
 
epistte
3.1.15  epistte  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1.11    3 days ago
What is a lie?

Being encouraged to believe in what doesn't exist. Santa, The Easter Bunny, God.

 
 
Tacos!
3.1.16  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.4    3 days ago
I told my two daughters that I will never lie to them

If you're clever and want your kids to have the same fun other kids are having, you can allow Santa into their lives without lying to them.

 
 
321steve
3.2  321steve  replied to  JBB @3    4 days ago

Meany

lol

 
 
Trout Giggles
3.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  JBB @3    3 days ago

At least you found out for yourself.

I had a Mean Mom moment when the Tooth Fairy was slacking off and I just couldn't contain it any longer. I told both kids "You know what? The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist! Neither does Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny!"

They were about 6 and 7 at the time....

 
 
321steve
3.3.1  321steve  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.3    3 days ago

wow

I'll bet your own X-mas gifts after that were crap for a few years. ...LOL 

Well maybe not the kids were young enough they didn't know to retaliate ... yet. 

LOL. Cant say as I can blame ya but.. wow

lol

I can just imagine though after telling a kid that on getting a piece of paper as my christmas gift from them saying simply "Merry christmas mom from me not santa." "PS: Mom, I was short on money so this IS your christmas gift hope ya enjoy it,"

year after year, cause paybacks are a bitch !!!

LOL  

 
 
Paula Bartholomew
3.3.2  Paula Bartholomew  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.3    3 days ago

I figured the tooth fairy thing out when my father ended up with 3 stitches on his thumb.  It would seem that when he tried to slide the money under my pillow, I bit him.

 
 
Trout Giggles
3.3.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  321steve @3.3.1    3 days ago
I'll bet your own X-mas gifts after that were crap for a few years. ..

By the time they were giving me gifts they had forgotten the Mean Mommy Moment

 
 
321steve
3.3.4  321steve  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.3.3    3 days ago
By the time they were giving me gifts they had forgotten the Mean Mommy Moment

LOL.. I remember as children making christmas gifts for our families in school. If mom had said that to me, she wold have gotten my note. Year after year till I got over it.

I can be and always could be quite the asshole when provoked.

lol 

 
 
sandy-2021492
3.3.5  sandy-2021492  replied to  Paula Bartholomew @3.3.2    3 days ago

Jeez, who ever decided that under the pillow was the best place for the exchange?  I remember almost outing the tooth fairy when my kid woke up.

 
 
Paula Bartholomew
5  Paula Bartholomew    3 days ago

Santa needs to put a one ton lump of coal in that bitch's stocking.  Too many children are already losing the innocence of childhood without her adding to it.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
6  Hal A. Lujah    3 days ago

I clearly remember disclosing that God doesn't exist in a car ride with my friend, when his super Catholic mom was driving.  I was in middle school, and yelled for God to do something about it if he didn't like me denying his existence.  She lost her mind.  God has yet to do something about it.

 
 
Texan1211
6.1  Texan1211  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6    3 days ago

Perhaps God merely let you make your own choices.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
6.1.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Texan1211 @6.1    3 days ago

What a convenient excuse.

 
 
Tacos!
6.2  Tacos!  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6    3 days ago
yelled for God to do something about it if he didn't like me denying his existence.  She lost her mind.  God has yet to do something about it.

So you think the creator of all things should be compelled to do tricks to impress you when you demand it. You might have an overinflated sense of your own importance.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
6.2.1  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Tacos! @6.2    3 days ago

So you think the creator of all things should be compelled to do tricks to impress you when you demand it.

The “creator of all things” gives exactly the same amount of evidence for its existence as any other entity that doesn’t exist.  I guess that impresses you.

 
 
Tacos!
6.2.2  Tacos!  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6.2.1    3 days ago

I see you want to change the subject now. Interesting.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
6.2.3  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Tacos! @6.2.2    3 days ago

The subject of your response to me is about evidence.  Let’s see some evidence of god.  That evidence is every bit as elusive as evidence for Santa.

 
 
lennylynx
6.2.4  lennylynx  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6.2.3    3 days ago

You mean they're not the same guy??

 
 
Tacos!
6.2.5  Tacos!  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6.2.3    3 days ago
Let’s see some evidence of god.

You have already established your own standard. It's not up to me to hunt around for something else to convince you. My only purpose was to point out how arrogant your standard is. Lots of atheists think they are in a position to define God and then tear him down. It's the ultimate straw man argument, characterized by the ultimate in absurdity.

As for offering you other evidence, why would I waste the effort on someone who's got it all figured out already? i.e. closed mind.

That evidence is every bit as elusive as evidence for Santa.

The evidence for Santa? Do you imagine someone here is trying to prove something about Santa? Are the concepts of imagination and fun really this alien to you? That's pretty sad.

 
 
Hal A. Lujah
6.2.6  Hal A. Lujah  replied to  Tacos! @6.2.5    2 days ago

You have already established your own standard.

Oh, now you know my standards?  Lol.  I offered a short anecdote and now that is my ‘standard’.  Sure, in my whole life, forced to attend church every Sunday until high school, then attending a Jesuit high school, even allowing my kids to attend catholic school k-8 so that they can get the exposure to make up their own minds about religion - but my ‘standard’ for religiosity is whatever you want it to be.  Sounds like you have a god complex yourself.

The ultimate in absurdity is accepting the biggest myth humanity has ever conjured up without a shred of evidence.  All the evidence points to the non-existence of a sentient creator.  If there is a god, it’s hardly something to revere.  Feel free to dispute that.

 
 
Tacos!
6.2.7  Tacos!  replied to  Hal A. Lujah @6.2.6    2 days ago
but my ‘standard’ for religiosity is whatever you want it to be

Nope, only what you said it was. Sorry, but I am not responsible for the words you choose to write.

 
 
Trout Giggles
6.2.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @6.2.5    2 days ago
It's not up to me to hunt around for something else to convince you.

Aren't you called as a Christian to spread the good news? How do you respond to someone who has never heard the message before and will take some convincing especially if that person is dubious about the existence of a Supreme Being?

 
 
Tacos!
6.2.9  Tacos!  replied to  Trout Giggles @6.2.8    2 days ago
Aren't you called as a Christian to spread the good news?

Yes, but you'll notice I'm not trying to save it done anyone's throat. You should be applauding my restraint.

How do you respond to someone who has never heard the message before and will take some convincing especially if that person is dubious about the existence of a Supreme Being?

You're off-topic.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7  Dismayed Patriot    3 days ago

This is a good example of how steeped in Christianity our public schools are. This wouldn't even be a story if it was about a teacher telling the class that Rumplestiltskin wasn't real, or that wish granting Genies don't exist. But you go and tell the truth about some fictional Christian icon and "Stop the presses! We've got someone we can label as anti-Christian! It fits our war or Christians/war on Christmas narrative perfectly! Make it front page!".

 
 
Tacos!
7.1  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7    3 days ago
It fits our war or Christians/war on Christmas narrative perfectly!

Hey, the facts are what they are. It's pretty hard to deny that this jerk isn't waging a war on Christmas. I can't help it that you approve of her actions and yet are offended by the very accurate description of those actions. That's your hangup. Maybe try facing reality and understand that being mean is just that. No sugarcoating. You applaud this teacher's honesty? Well, "war on Christmas" is honest and appropriate given the facts.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
7.1.1  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Tacos! @7.1    2 days ago
No sugarcoating. You applaud this teacher's honesty? Well, "war on Christmas" is honest and appropriate given the facts.

Yeah, right, try again,

384

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.2  Tacos!  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @7.1.1    2 days ago

You can say there is no war all you like and it wouldn't surprise me. The people that engage in this meanness love to deny the truth of what they are doing. Their egos won't let them face their own cruelty. Going out of your way to tell kids that they are fools for thinking the things they think about Christmas is a clear attempt to ruin their good time. There's no other description for it but a war on their Christmas. You might as well slap them and claim you're not trying to hurt them.

 
 
Trout Giggles
7.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.2    2 days ago

Then let them run home to Mommy and she can soothe their fears and hurt feelings.

Seriously, why was this even a discussion in a public school?

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.4  Tacos!  replied to  Trout Giggles @7.1.3    2 days ago
Then let them run home to Mommy and she can soothe their fears and hurt feelings.

That makes it ok?

Seriously, why was this even a discussion in a public school?

Because an unprofessional teacher chose to bully children and violate the wishes of their parents.

 
 
Trout Giggles
7.1.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.4    2 days ago

Ok.

Now please go answer my question.

 
 
epistte
7.1.6  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @7.1    2 days ago
Hey, the facts are what they are. It's pretty hard to deny that this jerk isn't waging a war on Christmas.

If telling the children facts, as is her job, is a war on Christmas you might want to reexamine your beliefs.  You are at war with logic and reality. 

 
 
JohnRussell
7.1.7  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  epistte @7.1.6    2 days ago

It isn't anyone's job to tell six year olds there is no Santa Claus.

When you see a homely person on the street, do you walk up to them and say "damn you're ugly" ?

You have a "responsibility" to tell everyone the truth don't you?

 
 
epistte
7.1.8  epistte  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.7    2 days ago
It isn't anyone's job to tell six year olds there is no Santa Claus.

I wouldn't lie to them and say that there is a Santa. 

When you see a homely person on the street, do you walk up to them and say "damn you're ugly" ?

That would be a very rude thing to do.

You have a "responsibility" to tell everyone the truth don't you?

I really like facts.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.9  Tacos!  replied to  Trout Giggles @7.1.5    2 days ago
How do you respond to someone who has never heard the message before and will take some convincing especially if that person is dubious about the existence of a Supreme Being?

I did answer your question. The teacher controls the conversation, not a bunch of six year-olds.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.10  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.6    2 days ago
If telling the children facts, as is her job

This topic is not part of her job.

You are at war with logic and reality. 

No, you are if you think Santa Claus is actually part of the curriculum.

 
 
epistte
7.1.11  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.10    2 days ago
No, you are if you think Santa Claus is actually part of the curriculum.

Then keep Christmas out of public schools.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.12  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.8    2 days ago
That would be a very rude thing to do.

Oh, so you do recognize that there might be a time when withholding the truth might be the kinder thing to do.

I guess that doesn't apply when the militant atheist agenda is in play, though. Maybe if you thought the homely person was a christian, you might volunteer the information anyway.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.13  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.11    2 days ago
Then keep Christmas out of public schools.

That makes no sense! No one put Christmas in the school. It's in the kids, but no one can change that. The teacher has control over what she talks about. Not the kids. And no adult or school official made her talk about Christmas.

 
 
Phoenyx13
7.1.14  Phoenyx13  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.2    2 days ago
There's no other description for it but a war on their Christmas.

oh geez.. again ? did this teacher send out Christmas cards and write "Merry X-mas" on them too ? jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif it seems you are itching for a war of some kind against religion...

 
 
epistte
7.1.15  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.12    2 days ago
I guess that doesn't apply when the militant atheist agenda is in play, though.

When exactly did telling the truth kids the become part of a militant atheist agenda?

Maybe if you thought the homely person was a christian, you might volunteer the information anyway.

That would still be very rude. Even if they asked I would not do as you are suggesting. I've had bad hair days and days that I didn't feel good, and I would not want someone to do that to me. I would never go oput the way to hurt someone. We are discussing a topic so I put forth my opinion.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.16  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.15    2 days ago
When exactly

Apparently Wednesday, or whenever it was that this happened.

I would never go oput the way to hurt someone

But this teacher did and you seem to be not only defending it, but cheering her on.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.17  Tacos!  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7.1.14    2 days ago
did this teacher send out Christmas cards and write "Merry X-mas" on them too ?

She didn't have to. She had her captive audience right in front of her. Lucky, right?

you are itching for a war of some kind against religion...

No, your comment makes no sense. I'd like it if the angry people of the world would let us enjoy Christmas as it is. I'm not the one causing trouble. This story isn't about me ruining Christmas for a couple dozen families. It's about this wacky "teacher" doing it.

 
 
epistte
7.1.18  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.16    2 days ago

Does it make you happy to know that she will not return to that district?

https://nypost.com/2018/12/05/teacher-who-ruined-santa-for-first-graders-will-no-longer-work-in-school-district/

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.19  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.18    2 days ago
Does it make you happy to know that she will not return to that district?

Yes, it does. It's a shame we can't undo her mean act. Unfortunately, there are a lot of mean people in the profession who should probably get out.

 
 
epistte
7.1.20  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.19    yesterday
Yes, it does. It's a shame we can't undo her mean act. Unfortunately, there are a lot of mean people in the profession who should probably get out.

It is not healthy to tell children that Santa actually exists any more than Little Red Riding Hood, Mother Goose or the Easter Bunny. Santa is a myth and should be treated as one by parents so we do not open children up to not being able to tell lies from facts. We know that there is no Santa, so it isn't psychologically healthy to tell children otherwise.  Stop gaslighting children.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/plato-pop/201212/say-goodbye-the-santa-claus-lie

 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.21  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.20    yesterday
It is not healthy to tell children that Santa actually exists

How many children have you raised, exactly?

 
 
epistte
7.1.22  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.21    yesterday
How many children have you raised, exactly?

What is your problem, Jack?

Do you believe that Santa exists? Why would you tell children that Santa exists when it isn't true, or does Santa exist of you believe that he does? 

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.23  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @7.1.20    yesterday
It is not healthy to tell children that Santa actually exists

Your link is full of opinion and a single anecdote. It's worthless. You claim to like science and data, well, just look around. You don't need a study. Do a simple observation. It's very clear that hundreds of millions of kids have grown up with Santa and turned out just fine. And the ones that don't didn't get that way because they got excited about Santa for a few years when they were little.

But that's not even the point of this seed. If you don't want your children doing the Santa thing, that's fine, but no one has the right to sabotage someone else's Christmas tradition.

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.24  Kathleen  replied to  epistte @7.1.20    yesterday

It did not harm my daughter. She had great fun with it and I do not regret it at all. I also believed it and it did not harm me or anyone I ever knew.  It was a part of your life that gave you so much fun and I would not like to take that away.

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.25  Kathleen  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.23    yesterday

I agree, it's a parents decision and if you do not want your children believing in santa that is fine, but if others do, then you need to keep your views to yourself on that matter and just concentrate on your own family.

I don't tell other people how to raise their children and I certainly don't want anyone telling me how to raise mine.

 
 
321steve
7.1.26  321steve  replied to  Kathleen @7.1.25    yesterday

I agree, it's a parents decision and if you do not want your children believing in santa that is fine, but if others do, then you need to keep your views to yourself on that matter and just concentrate on your own family.

I 100% agree and if everyone did that we wouldn't even have this story. 

 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.27  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.22    yesterday
What is your problem, Jack?

I am intelligent enough to post responses with civility and not involving personal attacks. 

Do you believe that Santa exists?

I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter.

Why would you tell children that Santa exists when it isn't true, or does Santa exist of you believe that he does? 

A number of reasons.  In no particular order..... 

It's fun.  Kids love it and parents love it.  This bullshit about how "you shouldn't do that" is just angry leftist killjoys trying to make sure nobody else is happy, either.

It's a bonding experience for families.  It's one of the few times where parents enthusiastically embrace the imaginative fantasies of their children.  They do so because....and this is important....the parents had the same experiences when they were kids, they were good experiences, and they want their kids to share that. 

It's a cultural experience that unites most of America.  Even people who aren't very religious embrace the Santa Claus idea.  Not embracing it makes you an outsider (just ask your Jewish or Muslim friends), and is arguably far more damaging to your child than enjoying a bit of traditional Christmas happiness. 

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.28  Kathleen  replied to  321steve @7.1.26    yesterday

We would even put out an apple and a carrot for the reindeer's.  : ) 

It was so much fun.

 
 
epistte
7.1.29  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.27    yesterday
I am intelligent enough to post responses with civility and not involving personal attacks. 

I am being civil to you. 

I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter.

This isn't a partisan or political issue, so stop trying to deflect. Do you or do you not believe that Santa Claus exists?  Children don't need to be told that Santa actually exists to have fun at Christmas. 

 
 
epistte
7.1.30  epistte  replied to  Kathleen @7.1.24    yesterday
It was a part of your life that gave you so much fun and I would not like to take that away.

Don't assume that I am like you.

 
 
321steve
7.1.31  321steve  replied to  Kathleen @7.1.28    yesterday
We would even put out an apple and a carrot for the reindeer's.  : )  It was so much fun.

LOL...

I dont remember much about my christmases as a child. I dont even know when I was made aware that santa was mom and dad.  I do remember hating the cold though....lol 

WE went to visit my grand parents one christmas in Florida when I was 6, I did not want to go back to Illinois.... ever...LOL 

By 18 I was on my way. Never looked back much. Still don't. Life's better now ! Why would I ? 

lol

 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.32  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.29    yesterday
I am being civil to you. 

I'm not sure if it's sadder that you post rudeness or that you don't realize it's rudeness.

This isn't a partisan or political issue, so stop trying to deflect.

Do you understand what a joke is?  To borrow a phrase, "what is your problem, epistte"?

But to your "partisan political" point, I challenge you to find a conservative or moderate who thinks Santa is a bad thing.  This whole no-Santa topic is firmly in the realm of the progressive "absolutely everything we do now is wrong and we should change it" belief system.

Do you or do you not believe that Santa Claus exists?

I'm guessing you don't think such a question is insulting, either.  "What is your problem, epistte"?

  Children don't need to be told that Santa actually exists to have fun at Christmas. 

They don't need soccer balls or video games or electric trains or new iPhones, either.  But Santa is fun, and the reasons to participate vastly outweigh the reasons not to.....unless of course the family goal is to raise a new generation of angry, bitter outcasts just like Mom & Dad.  

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.33  Kathleen  replied to  epistte @7.1.30    yesterday

Pardon me, I meant to put "our" instead of "your".

I certainly would never assume that you are like me in anyway.

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.34  Kathleen  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.32    yesterday

Sometimes you can be so extreme that we tend to forget about having fun in life. Even though I consider myself as a realist on some things, I still stop to have some fun.

Doesn't that make life worth living? I think so..

 
 
epistte
7.1.35  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.32    23 hours ago
I'm not sure if it's sadder that you post rudeness or that you don't realize it's rudeness.

You began this discussion by attacking me both as a parent and then as a mother and then you immediately tried to transition your reply into a personal attack about political beliefs, so you have a lot of nerve to complain about me being rude.   It seems to me that you are very upset because I refuse to take part in a religious and social tradition that you seem to hold dear, even to the point of me being a heretic in your eyes. 

 I used to be unnerved by anger and bluster from people such as you but now I see it for what it is. You apparently don't have a rational argument so you lash out at me in anger in hopes that I will cower and back off. That tactic worked about a decade ago but now I see through it. If you cannot stay on topic and rationally discuss my idea of telling children the truth that Santa Claus is a myth instead of telling them that Santa is real then I would prefer that you do not reply to me. 

But Santa is fun, and the reasons to participate vastly outweigh the reasons not to.....unless of course the family goal is to raise a new generation of angry, bitter outcasts just like Mom & Dad.

Your personal attack is noted.

 
 
epistte
7.1.36  epistte  replied to  Kathleen @7.1.33    21 hours ago
Pardon me, I meant to put "our" instead of "your". I certainly would never assume that you are like me in anyway.

.

It did not harm my daughter. She had great fun with it and I do not regret it at all. I also believed it and it did not harm me or anyone I ever knew.  It was a part of your life that gave you so much fun and I would not like to take that away.

I always thought that Santa was kind of silly.   I knew that there was no Santa as soon as I understand the reason that I received at Christmas. I am the second youngest of 5 sisters and I learned that it was my parents because my sisters would babysit while they shopped and then my parents spend most of the weekend before Christmas wrapping them while my older sister took us to the movies.  

 I don't enjoy social and religious traditions so Christmas has never been something that I looked forward to.  I'd happily sleep from Black Friday until January 2nd if it were possible. 

 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.37  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.35    21 hours ago
You began this discussion by attacking me both as a parent and then as a mother

I asked you how many children you had raised.  Hardly an attack.

you immediately tried to transition your reply into a personal attack about political beliefs

Still struggling with the concept of "joke", I see.

so you have a lot of nerve to complain about me being rude

It's your normal pattern.  I've come to expect it, but that doesn't mean I don't point it out.

It seems to me that you are very upset because I refuse to take part in a religious and social tradition that you seem to hold dear, even to the point of me being a heretic in your eyes. 

Oh sweetie.   I don't do "very upset".  Almost nothing is worth the effort, least of all the religious traditions or lack thereof of random angry people on the internet.  "Very upset" is for extremists who see horror and evil under every rock....like fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Leftists. (Yes, "Leftist" is a religion.)

I used to be unnerved by anger and bluster from people such as you but now I see it for what it is.

I doubt it very much.  You've already demonstrated that you don't.

You apparently don't have a rational argument

It was even organized into three points to help you understand it.  You just don't like it.

Your personal attack is noted.

Now struggling with the concept of "personal", I see.   Le'ts see....what was the phrase.....  oh yes.... "what's your problem"?

 
 
epistte
7.1.38  epistte  replied to  Jack_TX @7.1.37    21 hours ago
I asked you how many children you had raised.  Hardly an attack.

Why is that even an issue?

Still struggling with the concept of "joke", I see.

I'm not laughing, despite your attempt to spin it. 

It's your normal pattern.  I've come to expect it, but that doesn't mean I don't point it out.

You are protecting like a 12 screen cineplex. 

Oh sweetie. 

Kindly keep your sexist pandering to yourself. I am not amused.

 I don't do "very upset".  Almost nothing is worth the effort, least of all the religious traditions or lack thereof of random angry people on the internet.  "Very upset" is for extremists who see horror and evil under every rock....like fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Leftists. (Yes, "Leftist" is a religion.)

How can it possibly be a religion when I am an atheist?  What leftist icon are you claiming that I pray to?

It was even organized into three points to help you understand it.  You just don't like it.

You still have no argument.

Now struggling with the concept of "personal", I see.   Le'ts see....what was the phrase.....  oh yes.... "what's your problem"?

How is this phrase from you not a personal attack?

unless of course the family goal is to raise a new generation of angry, bitter outcasts just like Mom & Dad.
 
 
Phoenyx13
7.1.39  Phoenyx13  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.17    19 hours ago
She didn't have to. She had her captive audience right in front of her. Lucky, right?

i'm quite sure you stated that the "war on Christmas" involved writing "X-mas" on cards instead of Christmas, right ? what's the criteria now for this "war on Christmas" ?

No, your comment makes no sense. I'd like it if the angry people of the world would let us enjoy Christmas as it is. I'm not the one causing trouble. This story isn't about me ruining Christmas for a couple dozen families. It's about this wacky "teacher" doing it

the following comment made no sense:

There's no other description for it but a war on their Christmas.

since the article doesn't mention any kind of "war on Christmas" and in fact states:

This heartless woman even shattered the illusions derived from other childhood fairy tales, from the Tooth Fairy to the Easter Bunny.

so why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had Easter ruined for them ? why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had the Tooth Fairy ruined for them ? both the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy don't involve Christmas at all, yet you are clamoring on about another supposed "war on Christmas". Give everyone the criteria for this "war on Christmas", and how you came to the "logical" conclusion that this woman in the article is having a "war on Christmas" (especially since she involved the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy)

 
 
Jack_TX
7.1.40  Jack_TX  replied to  epistte @7.1.38    15 hours ago
Why is that even an issue?

If you're going to speak on the subject, you should have some experience.

I'm not laughing,

I am. 

Kindly keep your sexist pandering to yourself.

It's not pandering.  It's condescension.  Stop earning it and I'll stop supplying.

I am not amused.

I am not concerned.

How can it possibly be a religion when I am an atheist?

It's not all about you, dear.  But leftists use politics as their religion.  They substitute leftist political views as their dogma.  It's how they decide right from wrong.  The righteous are those who adhere to leftist doctrine.  Those who do not are sinners or infidels.

You still have no argument.

You just don't like the fact I'm right.

How is this phrase from you not a personal attack?

Because it's not all about you, dear.  Are you an angry, bitter, outcast?  No?  Then why would you think I was talking about you?

 
 
Kathleen
7.1.41  Kathleen  replied to  epistte @7.1.36    9 hours ago

Okay, I can see what is happening here. 

Have a good day.

 
 
Tacos!
7.1.42  Tacos!  replied to  Phoenyx13 @7.1.39    4 hours ago
i'm quite sure you stated that the "war on Christmas" involved writing "X-mas" on cards instead of Christmas, right ?

No, I did not. You might be confusing me with someone else.

so why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had Easter ruined for them ? why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had the Tooth Fairy ruined for them ?

Who said I wasn't? That bothers me, too.

 
 
Phoenyx13
7.1.43  Phoenyx13  replied to  Tacos! @7.1.42    14 minutes ago
No, I did not. You might be confusing me with someone else.

you could be correct and i do apologize if that's the case - i'll have to check it out later, it's no biggie.

Who said I wasn't? That bothers me, too.

wait.. no "war on Easter" nor "war on the Tooth Fairy" mentioned tho ? ..... that seems very odd... how do you know it's specifically a "war on Christmas" when the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were mentioned as well ?

 
 
JohnRussell
8  seeder  JohnRussell    3 days ago

I wonder if everyone agreeing that kids of 6 or 7 years of age should be told there is no Santa would also agree that people who are obsessed with superheroes (as adults) have a bigger problem, lol.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @8    3 days ago
would also agree that people who are obsessed with superheroes (as adults) have a bigger problem, lol.

Why would we? I have no problem with people who are obsessed with Santa as long as they're not actually running around claiming he's real. If you do that as an adult, whether it be Santa or Superman, you're more likely to end up in the nut house than ComiCon.

 
 
Tacos!
8.2  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @8    3 days ago

Some people hate it when others are having fun.

 
 
Trout Giggles
8.2.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @8.2    2 days ago

That's the truth!

 
 
Jack_TX
8.2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @8.2    21 hours ago
Some people hate it when others are having fun.

Seriously.  

Pity the children who grow up in those families.

 
 
Freefaller
9  Freefaller    3 days ago

While I made my own kids aware of the truth very young so they never believed that sort of silliness.  I also don't believe it's my job to make other parents children aware of the truth on this matter (it's their job)

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
9.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Freefaller @9    3 days ago
I also don't believe it's my job to make other parents children aware of the truth on this matter (it's their job)

While I don't believe in lying to children, I don't feel it's my job to inform everyone else's children. With my own daughter she had a close friend who's parents decided to lie to about Santa so I had the discussion with my daughter to not burst her friends bubble and just play along, not saying she believed but also not making an issue out of it and simply changing the subject if it comes up.

As for in school, I don't think Christmas, Christ or any religion should be discussed, public schools should be a place kept free of religious indoctrination. That way there's no chance an honest teacher like this one might confuse children already infected with such delusions.

 
 
Tacos!
9.2  Tacos!  replied to  Freefaller @9    3 days ago
they never believed that sort of silliness

Kids believe in all sorts of silliness, much of which will never be clear to their parents because the kids invented it in their own imaginations. Amazingly, hundreds of millions of children have believed in Santa Claus and grown up to be perfectly good adults.

 
 
Freefaller
9.2.1  Freefaller  replied to  Tacos! @9.2    2 days ago
Kids believe in all sorts of silliness

Yep that they do

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
10  Dismayed Patriot    3 days ago

If you celebrate Christmas with your family, and you don't focus on gifts or guilt or selfishness, you focus on the true spirit of giving from the heart to those you love and to those in need, then hooray, it doesn't really matter you're rehashing an ancient pagan celebration to a Sun God. But if you're like most Christians, you're just caught up in the mob mentality of do it because it's tradition, and advertisers have you convinced you're a bad parent if you don't get your kids everything they want on December 25th. But years ago when I was a Christian I stopped to think, would the Christ depicted in the bible have celebrated this holiday like we do here in America? Not the Jesus I read about. He would have been disgusted by how commercial the holiday has become, how stores predict their futures based on Christmas profits, children greedily whine for more, parents physically fight over the limited trending toys of that season and often go into debt just to fulfill the expectation set upon them by Christian society.

"13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” John 2:13-16

Would the Christ in the bible have lied to this girl and told her Santa was real when we all know he isn't, just to appease her parents? Of course not, the Christ in the bible came to break old useless traditions, it's what he was eventually killed for, disrupting the status quo and revealing the established religion at the time as the fraud it had become.

 
 
Tacos!
10.1  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @10    3 days ago
would the Christ depicted in the bible have celebrated this holiday like we do here in America? Not the Jesus I read about.

Jesus loved fun. He famously turned water into wine (and good wine at that) to make a wedding more fun. There's nothing wrong with fun.

The analogy of the temple merchants is a very different situation.

 
 
Sparty On
10.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Tacos! @10.1    2 days ago
(and good wine at that)

Yeah, no Boones Farm or TJ Swan for him.  

It's Two Buck Chuck at minimum ....... low cost miracles are more supernaturally efficient than high cost miracles.

 
 
Trout Giggles
10.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @10.1    2 days ago

Would you believe that I've actually had Christians try to tell me that it wasn't really wine it was grape juice?

These weren't particularly smart people considering the fact that grape juice doesn't keep well without refrigeration

 
 
sandy-2021492
10.1.3  sandy-2021492  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.1.2    2 days ago

That's what the church I grew up in taught.

 
 
Trout Giggles
10.1.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  sandy-2021492 @10.1.3    2 days ago

Like I said, critical thinking skills are seriously lacking in some church doctrines.

Back when we first moved into our house, we were still attending Mass on Sundays (Saturdays if we wanted to drink and light up fire works). Anyway, the girl across the street that's the same age as my daughter kept trying to get my daughter to go to her church. They were Church of Christ and not the liberal United Church of Christ. These are the bible enthusiasts who run our town. So she was asking K about drinking wine for the Eucharist. K said she did. Well, this kid got all offended about it and said that is was illegal and kids shouldn't be drinking wine, blah, blah, blah.

That was the last we saw of that kid at our house

 
 
321steve
10.1.5  321steve  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.1.4    2 days ago
That was the last we saw of that kid at our house

Lucky you. 

PS: If that's all it takes, I'm buying a bottle of wine. 

 
 
epistte
10.1.6  epistte  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.1.2    2 days ago
Would you believe that I've actually had Christians try to tell me that it wasn't really wine it was grape juice? These weren't particularly smart people considering the fact that grape juice doesn't keep well without refrigeration

I never understood that idea but it is very common. The water wasn't safe to drink but the process of fermentation made the wine safe and extended its storage life. The alcoholic buzz was a bonus, but puritanical religious belief frowns upon fun and enjoying yourself. 

I grew up Catholic and I know many people accused them of being drunks because they had no problem with alcohol.

 
 
Tacos!
10.1.7  Tacos!  replied to  Trout Giggles @10.1.2    2 days ago
it wasn't really wine it was grape juice

Wow. See, that's not Christianity so much as Victorianism. I'd say a lot of the places where churches or church people seem to be oddly uptight about things comes from that influence a lot more than it comes from scripture.

 
 
Kathleen
11  Kathleen    3 days ago

I think many people seem to forget what Christmas is all about.  It is about the birth of Christ and goodwill towards fellow man.

It has nothing to do with presents, cookies, fruitcake, Christmas tree's and even Santa. It does make it much more fun though. I would like to strangle the person that invented giving gifts.   It has gotten out of hand and the advertising is crazy. Plus having over 30 people over for dinner is a lot of work. I enjoyed it more when my daughter was little, and yes, she believed in Santa until she was around 10. That teacher is a jerk. It's a shame that it has gotten more about money then what the holiday really means.

Giving to charity would be nice.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
11.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Kathleen @11    3 days ago
I would like to strangle the person that invented giving gifts.

"Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.

The Sigillaria on 19 December was a day of gift-giving. Because gifts of value would mark social status contrary to the spirit of the season, these were often the pottery or wax figurines called sigillaria made specially for the day, candles, or "gag gifts", of which Augustus was particularly fond. Children received toys as gifts. In his many poems about the Saturnalia, Martial names both expensive and quite cheap gifts, including writing tablets, dice, knucklebones, moneyboxes, combs, toothpicks, a hat, a hunting knife, an axe, various lamps, balls, perfumes, pipes, a pig, a sausage, a parrot, tables, cups, spoons, items of clothing, statues, masks, books, and pets. Gifts might be as costly as a slave or exotic animal, but Martial suggests that token gifts of low intrinsic value inversely measure the high quality of a friendship. Patrons or "bosses" might pass along a gratuity (sigillaricium) to their poorer clients or dependents to help them buy gifts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

 
 
Kathleen
11.1.1  Kathleen  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @11.1    2 days ago

That is great if you like doing it, but I think Christmas has become more commercial over the years. I have to admit, I liked buying the toys, but sometimes it gets hard to figure out what to get the adults after so many years. I prefer to make things because they have more meaning. It's not that I don't want to spend money on people, it just gets hard figuring out what to get them. That is my beef. 

 
 
Kathleen
11.1.2  Kathleen  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @11.1    2 days ago

If you wish to call it Saturnalia instead of Christmas, you are free to do so, it does not bother me at all. To each his own.The only thing I find disturbing is when others are telling others they are wrong.  That is why I would rather let others believe what they wish as long as it does not affect the other person. 

 
 
Trout Giggles
11.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kathleen @11    2 days ago
It is about the birth of Christ and goodwill towards fellow man.

I thought you weren't a Christian?

 
 
Kathleen
11.2.1  Kathleen  replied to  Trout Giggles @11.2    2 days ago

I was brought up a Christian, but after college, I changed to being not sure. I was just saying that I thought that is Christmas was really about. I don't feel like I need to explain myself here, I don't expect that of others either.  

 
 
Trout Giggles
11.2.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kathleen @11.2.1    2 days ago

hmmmm.....

 
 
Kathleen
11.2.3  Kathleen  replied to  Trout Giggles @11.2.2    2 days ago

Do you disagree with me about what Christmas was all about? 

Why did you ask me that question?

 
 
Trout Giggles
11.2.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kathleen @11.2.3    2 days ago

Because I don't believe that Christmas is all about Jesus. As Dismayed above tried to show you, Christians hijacked several Pagan holidays to make Christianity more palatable to them and get them to convert.

You always claimed you weren't a Christian but you're stating something very different here. I don't care if you're a Christian, but you should be honest.

 
 
Kathleen
11.2.5  Kathleen  replied to  Trout Giggles @11.2.4    2 days ago

So if I think Christmas is about Jesus, I am a christian? Just because I think that something is about something it does not mean I am part of it. I am honest, I had said numerous times that I do not know for sure what is out there.  There are many things about organized religion I do not like, but I always thought Christmas was about the birth of Jesus. Do I believe it is actually true? I don't know.. I was not alive to see what happened back then and neither was anyone else. So I find it hard for anyone to know 100%. 

I can honestly say... I have no idea for sure, but I will celebrate it with some my family members that are Christian.

 
 
Trout Giggles
11.2.6  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kathleen @11.2.5    2 days ago

ok

 
 
Sparty On
12  Sparty On    3 days ago

I'm with Frank Costanza ..... just a simple Festivus, for the rest of us ..... now back to your Newstalkers daily airing of grievances ......

 
 
Tacos!
13  Tacos!    3 days ago

This is pretty mean, but it's also pretty arrogant to imagine that it's your place to set a bunch of 6 year-olds straight, contrary to the wishes of their parents. This is what evil looks like.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
13.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @13    3 days ago
This is what evil looks like

Sounds exactly like what the supposed father of the lie would want you to believe...

 
 
Tacos!
13.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @13.1    3 days ago

So you think it's laudable to mean to kids and force your views on them over the will of their parents. I sure hope you aren't around other people's kids.

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
13.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @13.1.1    2 days ago
So you think it's laudable to mean to kids and force your views on them over the will of their parents.

I said no such thing. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of a Christian Holiday (based on an ancient Pagan holiday) where one of the traditions is lying to your children.

"44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. " John 8:44

 
 
MUVA
14  MUVA    3 days ago

No Virginia there isn't a Santa Claus. 

 
 
JohnRussell
15  seeder  JohnRussell    2 days ago

It's kind of sad how so many articles on NT have to turn into "debates" about religion and the existence or non existence of God. The seeded article was really about the appropriateness of a teacher informing 6 year olds that there is no Santa Claus. 

Do all atheists really believe that it is wrong for little children to believe in "magic"? 

That sounds depressing. 

 
 
Dismayed Patriot
15.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @15    2 days ago
The seeded article was really about the appropriateness of a teacher informing 6 year olds that there is no Santa Claus.

But that debate, by its very nature, invites one to question the appropriateness of a teacher informing 6 year olds that there is a Santa Claus. How can you conclude it's inappropriate for a teacher to choose truth over fiction if you haven't questioned the necessity of the lie in the first place?

Pretty much every comment here agrees that it wasn't really the teachers place to volunteer such information against the parents wishes, and so far we have no motive for her decision to take it upon herself to inform these kids that elves don't exist, reindeer can't fly, there's no tooth fairy, no Easter Bunny and no Santa. Taking it upon yourself to correct others without being asked is not something I condone or support (though if they make a claim in an open forum they're inviting critique).

However, the core of this debate is deeper than just 'should this teacher have spilled the beans'. At its core it's a discussion over whether it's healthy to lie to your children in any form. If teaching your kids by example that lying is okay sometimes, that there are "little white lies", then I think you're teaching your children to lie and you really can't complain later on when they lie to you. And I believe it's doing far more harm to them than any good could come of supposedly encouraging a child's imagination. There are plenty of healthy ways to encourage an imagination without lying to them.

 
 
mocowgirl
15.1.1  mocowgirl  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @15.1    2 days ago
At its core it's a discussion over whether it's healthy to lie to your children in any form.

I agree.  

I never taught my children to believe in the Santa Claus myth.  I did have to caution them about telling other children that it was their parents who bought them gifts because I did not want them to get yelled at by angry adults.

I did not do the Santa myth because I did not want to explain to my kids why Santa rewarded some of their brattiest friends with every trendy toy of the year.  I felt, and still feel, that teaching children that there is a man watching their every move and tallying a reward based on their being "bad or good" is psychological abuse. 

I think that I just gave them a $1 for each baby tooth they lost, but I really can't remember.

 
 
mocowgirl
15.2  mocowgirl  replied to  JohnRussell @15    2 days ago
Do all atheists really believe that it is wrong for little children to believe in "magic"? 

Have you forgotten the hysteria that some Christian groups have over Harry Potter?

According to the Santa myth, "he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you are awake, he knows when you are bad or good".......

Do you really believe it is appropriate to teach small children that they are being spied on by Santa?

 
 
Ender
16  Ender    2 days ago

Grinches exist. I know several.

 
 
Kathleen
16.1  Kathleen  replied to  Ender @16    2 days ago

I like Christmas, but it has become more commercial then the actual "Christmas Spirit". Take me back to the times like Little house on the Prairie when it was more simple.

 
 
lady in black
16.1.1  lady in black  replied to  Kathleen @16.1    2 days ago

Nice sentiment but women were treated like property, no thank you.

 
 
Ender
16.1.2  Ender  replied to  Kathleen @16.1    2 days ago

Eh, I am a sucker for some of it. I love seeing lights on houses.

This year I did red and white lights. The regular C9 lights but two red, one white, in succession.

Looks pretty good. Almost like a candy cane. Next year I want to do green and white. The older types of lights are getting harder to find though. Everything is LED now.

 
 
Kathleen
16.1.3  Kathleen  replied to  lady in black @16.1.1    2 days ago

I was talking about the simple way of life, as for treating women like property, I don't agree with that.

 
 
Kathleen
16.1.4  Kathleen  replied to  Ender @16.1.2    2 days ago

It's nice, I decorate myself I just don't like seeing the store putting out Christmas decorations before Halloween.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
16.1.5  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Kathleen @16.1.4    2 days ago
It's nice, I decorate myself I just don't like seeing the store putting out Christmas decorations before Halloween

You know the best time to buy Christmas decorations is after Christmas.

 
 
Ender
16.1.6  Ender  replied to  Kathleen @16.1.4    2 days ago

Gotta agree with that. They do that here too.

 
 
Kathleen
16.1.7  Kathleen  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @16.1.5    2 days ago

That is true, It's at least 50% off..

 
 
mocowgirl
16.1.9  mocowgirl  replied to  Kathleen @16.1    4 hours ago
Take me back to the times like Little house on the Prairie when it was more simple.

Women simply worked from before daylight to after dark, birthed babies with no doctor, concocted home remedies and bought assorted snake oil medicines for what ailed them.

I wouldn't wish the life of the 1800s on anyone.  I doubt that arguing about the myth of Santa Claus was a big part of their lives.

Some interesting facts about "when it was more simple" at link below.

http://www.connerprairie.org/education-research/indiana-history-1860-1900/lives-of-women

The weekly schedule of "drudge" likely included laundry on Monday, ironing and mending on Tuesday, baking on Wednesday and Saturday, daily tidying of kitchen and parlor, and thorough cleaning on Thursday and again on Saturday. This was in addition to childcare, three meals a day, hauling water and keeping the fire burning in the stove, a chore that in itself took at least one hour each day. Then there was making the family garments and seasonal preserving of fruits, vegetables and meat. Often, too, the scope of work extended to the farm itself. Women had charge of the farm garden, livestock and poultry and work related to "civilizing" the farm. During planting and harvest, if she did not work in the fields herself, she provided room and board for the extra help that did.

Rural women were required, by the nature of their work, to be healthy and strong. But that was often not the case. Beset by long days of labor, they were often exhausted, mentally and physically. It was generally accepted, however, that the prevalence of sickness and decline was the result of the "peculiarity" of her anatomy - woman as a natural invalid. Contemporary writings often noted the preponderance of nervous disorders and "fretfulness."

Childbearing and child mortality remained two of the most serious health issues for women and their families. There is evidence that white women in the later part of the century were controlling their fertility. Between 1800 and 1900, their birthrates dropped by half, while those of blacks and European immigrants grew, even though their childhood death rates were higher. On average, women earlier in the century gave birth to seven live babies in her lifetime. One-third to one-half would not survive to age 5. By 1900, the birthrate had dropped to an average of 3.5 live births. Even with this reduction in birthrate, many families lost children early, before they reached adulthood.

By the end of the 19th century, it became evident that college-educated women did not marry as often as other women. Regardless of who did the counting, the figures always showed that at least a fourth of women who graduated from college never married, more that double the proportion of non-college women. And, if they married at all, they did so later in life, and consequently had fewer children. As a result, women’s higher education came under fire for having a subversive effect on the traditional concept of women and family. The intent of educating women – making them better wives and mothers – showed every indication of doing just the opposite. Once doors had been opened, expectations raised and new skills learned, how women used their education or what conclusions they drew from it were not always what their teachers – or society – intended.

and a good article about societal change in the 1890s.

https://www.nps.gov/klgo/learn/historyculture/women1890s.htm

Setting the Scene: Women of the 1890s

To paint a portrait of women during this time, the stage must first be set. An understanding of the economical atmosphere and social standards women experienced in the 1890 is needed. 
 
 
epistte
16.2  epistte  replied to  Ender @16    2 days ago
Grinches exist. I know several.

I hope you count me among them. That is my favorite part of Christmas holiday. I've tried to use this song as my December phone ring tone. 

 
 
Ender
16.2.1  Ender  replied to  epistte @16.2    2 days ago

haha.  I want to see the new Grinch movie. It looks funny. Love the screaming goat.

 
 
arkpdx
16.2.2  arkpdx  replied to  epistte @16.2    2 days ago

Hey! There you go we finally agree on something. That is my favorite Christmas  tune also. Who says miracles  don't happen. 

 
 
epistte
16.2.3  epistte  replied to  arkpdx @16.2.2    2 days ago

I'm looking for a 8' tall inflatable Grinch for my yard.

 
 
Ender
16.2.4  Ender  replied to  epistte @16.2.3    2 days ago

My Sister/BIL have exactly that. I need to take a pic of it.

 
 
epistte
16.2.5  epistte  replied to  Ender @16.2.4    2 days ago
My Sister/BIL have exactly that. I need to take a pic of it.

I found an 8' tall inflatable at Lowes for $100. I might have to buy it.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
17  Galen Marvin Ross    2 days ago

Just so you know where I stand on this whole Christmas thingy, if you don't already know, I celebrate Yule but, I also hold traditions that celebrate Christmas as well and, Hanukah, if someone comes up to me and, wishes me a Merry Christmas I wish it right back at them, the same for Hanukah or, any of the other celebrations at this time of the year. All of that being said there is one more thing I can add to this, my step-daughter still kind of believes in Santa and, she's thirty-seven and, yes, that is my fault. When she was 14 I introduced her to "Santa" at a Thanksgiving Dinner we were at, she said to me, "No, he's not Santa, Santa's not real", the gentleman had his name changed to Kris Kringle years before because he ran the North Pole in Colorado and, his drivers license said Kris Kringle on it, he showed it to her and, since that time she always asks me if it was real and, I tell her yes, it was real.

 
 
PJ
18  PJ    2 days ago

Very clever article.  It sucks you in by pulling at your heart strings about young children's dreams being shattered by an evil women.

The underlying message is women need to stay home and raise their children.

 
 
Tacos!
18.1  Tacos!  replied to  PJ @18    yesterday
The underlying message is women need to stay home and raise their children.

Say what now?

 
 
PJ
18.1.1  PJ  replied to  Tacos! @18.1    22 hours ago

Sorry......I'm sure I could come up with several witty things to say but I've been baking Christmas cookies for hours and I just don't have a decent conversation in me this evening.

 
 
Mark in Wyoming
19  Mark in Wyoming    2 days ago

seems a few here apply my grandmas advice of remember the reason for the season , even if its only your reason .

 I remember when my kids started to question things and eventually having to answer that dreaded question , is santa real?

Now I have always enjoyed the season , and came to enjoy it even more after I became a father , even if Christmas morning meant I was sleep deprived , watching the kids and listening to the excitement was really the only gift I needed and desired .

How I explained it when asked was , of course santa is real , because Santa is within YOU, I told them what great gramma told me , to remember the reason for the season and told them that they had to find their own reason , for me it was of course as I said above  with the kids , but it went further , to be nice to others , be helpful even if I wasn't asked to be , those were simply gifts of my time and effort , but it was something I gave free of any strings and never feeling I needed to be paid or repaid .  I explained it to them that giving to others of your time and energies , is not only a gift to them from you , but one of the best gifts one can give to themselves .

I made sure that they knew , a gift didn't have to come from the store , be wrapped in ribbons and bows with colorful paper wrapping , it could be as simple as a greeting , shoveling a walkway unasked for , helping someone across the street, and doing so with a smile on ones face.

I also told them before they would know it , it would become second nature , and before long , it wouldn't just happen during the holidays , and like Scrooge from a Christmas carol, they would carry it the whole year long.

for me Christmas is for the kids , the presents , the excitement and anticipation , it is impossible not to get caught up with a childs imagination , but there always comes a time that they have to be let in on the secret everyone knows after a certain age ,  That Santa lives within each and every one of us , how we let him live , is also up to us.

So I will close this with ,a heart felt and warm, happy holidays to all , and to all , a good night.

 
 
Kathleen
19.1  Kathleen  replied to  Mark in Wyoming @19    yesterday

Reading your post, I can remember when I was little there was one present that I did not open yet and when I did it was a pretty doll.  My mom said "That is from me, not santa". I thought that was the greatest thing.  I think after that I started to understand about giving from the heart. 

You are right, Christmas is for kids, because that was the most fun waking up that morning and running to the tree.

 
 
321steve
19.1.1  321steve  replied to  Kathleen @19.1    yesterday

My mom said "That is from me, not santa". I thought that was the greatest thing.

Realty realy is much better than make believe.  I agree !

 
 
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