The lesson of the substitute teacher who stole Christmas
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The principal of Cedar Hill Elementary School in Montville, New Jersey, is apologizing to parents after a substitute teacher told first graders that Santa Claus isn't real.
According to a Facebook post by a devastated parent, the teacher told aghast and agog children that, in fact, parents buy the presents, reindeer can't fly, elves aren't real, and the popular Elf on the Shelf doll is just a toy that parents move around.
This heartless woman even shattered the illusions derived from other childhood fairy tales, from the Tooth Fairy to the Easter Bunny.
Now, an entire class of schoolchildren will no longer know the untold fulfillment of believing in mythical creatures who aim to guide their moral character, reward good behavior and fill their hearts with endless wonder and joy.
While it's unclear why this substitute teacher felt compelled to dismantle these children's harmless fantasies in a matter of minutes -- maybe she was having a bad day, maybe she was wronged by a rotten Tooth Fairy, maybe she felt like she was preparing gullible kiddos for the harsh realities of life -- what she did was wrong and inexcusable. And it was just plain mean.
But among the many laments about our public education system, the aberrant Ebenezer Sub who ruins Christmas is nowhere near the top of the list.
As a kid who moved a lot, I went to all kinds of schools, including public, private, magnet, Catholic and single-sex. Some of the best schools I attended were public — just like the one where the over-sharing sub taught. Her actions point up a problem that this ghost of Christmas future might portend: As parents, we've long ceded far too much authority to our schools, and we are starting to see the results.
Public elementary schools should be places to learn what parents cannot teach. Even if we, as adults, already know what our kids are only just learning, we don't always know how to teach it to them ourselves — how to read or multiply, perform chemical reactions or process centuries of world history. And for those of us who work, we certainly don't have the time.
But the things that all parents can teach their kids -- moral values, tolerance, and what not to put in their bodies -- should be left to them. Instead, these topics are codified into curriculum , and parents expect, and indeed demand, that they are taught.
Public school sex education, for instance, was born out of a 1919 US Department of Labor report suggesting that educating young men about sex could have better prevented STDs in soldiers . The very next year it was introduced in high schools. Somewhere along the way it trickled down to middle school, elementary school and even kindergarten, and vastly expanded its purview to include everything from pornography to gay rights. Some schools have introduced graphic sex ed plans that walk children through things like the benefits of lubrication and increasing pleasure during sex.
This gradual and ever-increasing reliance on public school to teach kids not only about the birds and the bees, but also the LGBTQs and the Big Os, has led to some next-level absurdity.
And one Rhode Island mom and education writer wanted public schools to teach the idea of consent to kindergartners because a local toddler kept kissing her 4-year-old.
The overexposure to sex advice, rather than education, in public schools, cuts the other way, too. A majority of school districts in Georgia, despite hundreds of student requests for science-based sex programs, still instruct students to save sex for marriage.
Sex advice is for parents to offer, not public school teachers. So, too, are lessons about tolerance and inclusion, ideas about gender fluidity, and drug and alcohol abuse, experimentation or avoidance.
Nevertheless, teachers are taking these lessons into their own hands. In a California charter school, a kindergarten teacher held a " transition ceremony " to celebrate a 5-year-old boy's decision to identify as a girl. California law requires parental consent in matters of sex education, but the school argued this had to do with "gender identity," which the school district says falls under their "tolerance and diversity" curriculum, raising the question: Why do schools have a tolerance and diversity curriculum?
They certainly won't if they know their schools will do it for them. So rather than insist our schools keep expanding the range and scope of what they teach our kids, so that eventually they'll have nothing to learn at home, shouldn't we spend more energy compelling parents to teach these important lessons in the ways they feel are age-appropriate and consistent with their own values?
The usual arguments over public school curricula often center around religion. Like history and literature, public schools should teach religion -- but they should not teach faith. That is the difference. Like science, teach sex -- but not sexual morality.
When we cede so much authority to schools, it's no wonder they often overstep and run into these invisible boundaries between home lessons and school lessons. It's also no wonder the homeschooling movement is booming.
According to the National Center for Education Statistics , a federal organization that collects and analyzes education-related data, in 2012 there were only 1.8 million children who were homeschooled. The National Home Education Research Institute, which conducts research on homeschooling, estimates the practice has grown at a rate of 3% to 8% a year.
That's not an option for everyone, but it's hard to blame parents for wanting more control over their children's coursework when any of it is devoted to lessons best learned at home.
That includes whether and how to tell your innocent babes that Santa isn't real, or that God isn't either. The sub who stole Christmas shouldn't do the job of parents -- but too many schools already are.
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I'm locking this seed. I get tired of everything on Newstalkers being turned into a discussion about the viability of Christianity or the belief in God.
The seed was about the appropriateness of a teacher telling 6 year olds there is no Santa Claus.
Plus, the seed is 5 days old and the discussion has run it's course.
I believe that most kids stop believing in Santa Claus when they are 8 or 9. First graders are 6 .
What can we call this woman but mean-spirited ?
Some might call her a realist, an atheist, or perhaps something worse.
I mean, the same people who don't believe in God must be celebrating this woman's decision right now.
I mean, the same people who don't believe in God must be celebrating this woman's decision right now.
Lol. Because telling your child that Santa is real is the same thing as telling them that God is real? Every single child that has ever been born eventually comes to the conclusion that Santa is not real. Your comment is just another idiotic snipe at atheists.
No, it is reality.
Why have a Santa Claus if you don't believe in Christ?
There is no Christmas without Christ.
Which for many intelligent adults eventually extends to the lies they were told about another imaginary character who sees you when you're sleeping, and knows when you're awake, knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...
Why have a Santa Claus if you DO believe in Christ?
Is there no Christmas without Santa?
If you don't believe in Christ, what is the point of Christmas?
But I get it--it is probably easier to destroy some kid's harmless belief in Santa Claus than supporting a kid and his imagination.
Carry on!
You just said if you don't believe in Christ, what's the point of Christmas, then you claim it's destroying a child's imagination. Is Christmas just a tool Christians use to open their children's minds to the fantasy religious world they exist in? A child's imagination is alive and well without parents lying to them about a jolly fat man. If you want to lie to your kids there's plenty of other ways to do it too. Tell them when it rains it's because God is crying, probably because of something they did, that's just as effective as telling them an obese bearded man in suspenders is always watching them.
What possible difference could it ever make to someone such as yourself WHAT Christians believe?
What possible difference does it make to you if non-believers celebrate Christmas?
I have asked that same question several times and I am still waiting for an answer.
It was called Yule long before the Christians stole it from the Pagan's and, Santa was known as the Yule King in some cultures or, for those who needed a demon type, Krampus.
Because we non-believers like the giving aspect of the season and spending time with family and friends. We don't need Jesus for that
it would be very hypocritical of them to do so.
Duh.
Where I come from, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ. Period.
I don't see it that way. Christmas is not just about Jesus and the Christian religion.
Maybe a little ancient history for you will help, maybe not,
Well, good for you! I don't see anybody here trying to tell you that you have to believe otherwise.
Some of us simply like the spirit of the season. We don't need Jesus to make it meaningful
And, because of this lie the birth date of Christ was lost about 1400 years ago.
... with a revised birthdate to complete the hostile takeover of another pagan holiday. sorry, but the religiously challenged are only allowed to revise their own history, not world history.
What do you believe Christmas is about if not Jesus?
Damn, 2000+ years later, and you pagans STILL can't get over it?
And what exactly prevented any pagans from celebrating whatever holiday they wanted?
Winter has a spirit now?
Who knew!
how about easter next. a good metaphor would be the racist tea party claiming veteran's day as tea party patriot day too, and then saying the previously planned parades were really for them. without stealing established pagan celebration time frames, the then fledgling xtian celebrations would be represented by petrified lion shit.
There is no Christmas without Christ.
And yet Christians had to co-opt a widely practiced pre-existing holiday as their own. There is plenty of winter solstice without Christ, and always has been.
Why not just let parents have fun with their kids. It's fun. It certainly isn't hurting the crabby, evangelizing atheists in the world who get up in the morning and think "how can I ruin a family's day today?"
No one stole anything from pagans. The pagans are still free to celebrate whatever they want however they want.
Unless you mean they got an idea for celebration from someone else, in which case: so effing what? You never got an idea of how to have fun by watching someone else have fun?
Or do you even do fun?
Yes, they did, Christians claim that Christmas the birth date of Jesus but, it really isn't, it is in Pagan beliefs the birth date of one of our gods. Using the Yule season was the way the Christians at the time convince many Pagans that Jesus was the same as their gods and, Christianity was the one true religion, in other words they lied to the Pagans to get them to become Christians. I thought lying was against Christian beliefs. Jesus was actually born in September on the 5th day of the month. Here, let me show you,
Now, not only did the Christians decide to take a Pagan holiday but, they also coopted many of their traditions in that holiday. The "Christmas tree" and, the wreaths, the use of holly and, the use of Mistletoe, Santa Clause even all came from the celebration of Yule which was never Christian.
What does it say in Deuteronomy about following Pagan traditions? Oh Yeah,
It seems in celebrating Christmas on the 25th of December Christians have broken a law of Yahweh. Oooops!
I don't care myself when you celebrate Jesus's birthday or, what traditions you wish to follow but, it would seem that both Jesus and, Yahweh would be pissed that you celebrate the birth of Jesus on a Pagan holiday following Pagan traditions. I'm sure Odin likes the idea that you are celebrating his Wild Hunt though.
Santa sounds like a stalker, watching everything you do, Lol
Which Christians? I don't know one church that thinks Jesus was actually born on December 25th. It's simply the day we have chosen to celebrate it. People do this all the time with celebrations. The date is not what matters.
It amazes that the some people are always so eager to take something ordinary and try to repackage it as a scandal. I have the same response to the last time you made this claim: so effing what?
If you actually knew anything about Christianity, you'd know we aren't worried about following every rule in Deuteronomy. Not even Jews think following every one of those rules is some kind of ticket to Heaven. You have some studying to do.
Don't flatter yourself. You clearly do care or you wouldn't be trying to so hard to defend the cruelty we see in this seed. You also wouldn't be ranting about Christians "stealing" things from other cultures or employing flimsy internet arguments rooted in ignorance to try and trash Christianity and Christians generally.
You might want to tell the "Jesus is the reason for the season" folks.
Jesus was not born on Decemeber 25th so why did the Christian church move his supposed birthday to coincide the major early winter holiday w that was the dominant festival at the time? All of the symbolism of Christmas is Pagan in origin, just as the symbolism of Easter is also Pagan. Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday and getting mad that people don't call it Christmas when in fact it is actually a pagan holiday. Irony, thy name is religious belief.
December 25th is the first day that daylight begins lengthen after the solstice of the 21st. That is why the son/sun is born.
Retail quarterly profits are the reason for the season.
Oh gosh, I'm so hurt by your anger.....not really. Who's defending the "cruelty we see in this seed", keep reading on down the line here, you'll find a comment of mine that explains how I feel and, it ain't defending this seed. I'm simply stating history, you know, that thing you're ignoring here?
You either have quite an ego or quite an imagination. I don't where you got the idea that I am angry at you. I disagree with you. That's all.
You're not "simply" stating anything. You state it to make a point. You state it for a reason, and that reason is not to generously educate people. It's to attack them. That's why you use accusatory and demonizing language like Christians "stealing", "lying" or "taking." Your "simple" statements of history are all about attacking Christians and Christmas.
Oh the horror of being called an atheist. What could be worse than that?
Some things will never change.
If the people who don't believe in God would simply live and let live, there would be far less arguments here.
That history is real nice and all, but I don't think you'll convince any adult that Christians are celebrating anything other than the birth of Christ on Christmas.
Mainly because they aren't, of course.
Sooo, ignore history is your answer?
Of course they aren't celebrating Christs birthday, that's why Christians call it Christmas because they aren't celebrating a mistaken belief that Jesus was born on December 25th.
Don't even go there, I believe in Yahweh, I just don't believe in repeating lies that have been in existence since the church put the Bible together out of different books in the Hebrew religion and, then added writing from some Christians that happened to hanging around and, calling it the gospel.
If Christians aren't celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25th, what do YOU think they are celebrating?
WTF are you going on about now?
As far as I can tell, no one has asked you to spread a lie or do anything at all.
If you take that upon yourself, then that's on you.
Your comment is a fine example of exactly what I was speaking of.
Good job.
The great irony is that they accuse Christians of ramming religion down their throats.
Yep, exactly right.
The self-professed "tolerant" people are proving themselves to be anything BUT tolerant.
That goes both ways. Keep your beliefs to yourself and stop trying to make them public policy issues.
That's garbage. There's no policy preventing you from being a militant atheist or attacking atheist children and families for their traditions (whatever they might be).
Texan, two things about my post that you seem to be forgetting, the part that ends with the sentence, "Mainly because they aren't, of course.", is the part that you wrote, my part which is, "Of course they aren't celebrating Christs birthday, that's why Christians call it Christmas because they aren't celebrating a mistaken belief that Jesus was born on December 25th." Is sarcasm, as suggested by the emoticon I added at the end.
If there are government policies that support or endorsing one religion over another or religious belief over non-belief then we do not have equal religious rights and both the Free Exercise Clause and the concept of the separation of church and state are not being obeyed. The First Amendment is not just a suggestion for you or anyone else, so the state is to be absolutely neutral on religious belief for the protection of both secular and religious rights of all people and not just the Christian majority who believe as you seem to do. How many times does it need to be rubbed in your face that if we swapped your Christian ideas for Islam, Hindu, or pagan beliefs in public policy that you would scream loud enough to be heard by the Voyager satellites, but you have no problem forcing your beliefs on others when you seek to legislate and then weaponize them.
And, here you go again showing that you can't follow a simple conversation. Please go back and,, look at what you posted to Tacos and, what Tacos said in reply to me.
Interesting way to try to turn it on those who wish that certain people would leave religion out of the government. You go ahead and, believe whatever fairy tale you wish to believe but, remember, history knows the truth.
You all should really try harder to be more tolerant then shouldn't you.
Yes, you people do so love to try and rub stuff in our faces. That's sorta the theme of this seed - a shining example of exactly that.
Such as?
It's not in government. It's in the people who are in government. Their ideas and opinions are going to come from somewhere. Better to have people in government who rely on timeless principles than to have people who just do whatever feels good in the moment.
Like slavery and genocide?
Yeah, that always works out well.
I understand English quite well, thanks.
If I need help I'll let you know.
Got it. Like the teacher in this article, right?
Let's start with certain states bathroom laws like in North Carolina, then lets move on to so called "religious rights laws" like in Indiana.
The Islamic, Hindu, and Pagan equivalent of banning abortion, mandatory public school prayer, attacks on LGBT people, and limiting both the secular and religious rights of others in favor of conservative Christian rights that hide behind the Religious Freedom Restoration euphemism. Your ideas are the start of the Christian equivalent of ISIL, the Saudi religious enforcers and the Taliban. The fact that not even all Protestant Christian churches agree with these very conservative ideas seems to be lost on you, or maybe you don't care about others as long as you get the power to enforce your ideas. You are not supporting Christian beliefs but instead, you are seeking to create a fundamentalist Christian theorcracy to protect and enforce the conservative patriarchal social structure that you see as being threatened by 21st-century social change.
Did I MENTION the teacher in this article? No, that was you who did that.
Bravo, well said.
She IS the topic, correct? You read the article right?
I know what a stickler you are on your articles for sticking to the topic.
I guess that only applies sometimes, huh?
Start at the top of this fucking thread and, then come back and, talk to me, until then, good bye.
Here it is.
Looks like the topic is the teacher, what she did, and little kids believing in Santa Claus.
Anything else I can clear up for you?
Thank you very much for those kind words. I'm certain that you know the story about a blind squirrel and a nut..............
Roasting witches and others as heretics is a known Christian principle.
The True Meaning Of Christ-Mass
by pastor David J Myer
I found this most interesting,
The Pagan's never asked for the Roman Catholic Church to steal our traditions or, our holidays, that was their choice.
So, what you're really saying is "Thank God I live in a country founded and run by Christians!" Because none of those things are happening here. Pretty sweet!
I know you have an extremely high opinion of your own insight, but you really don't have the slightest freakin clue what I support or seek.
How was this country founded by Christians as a Christian country? Keeping religion and the government separate is a cornerstone of the American government. We cannot have religious freedom for all if it is different, unless you believe that only Christians are meant to enjoy religious freedom in the US? Why don't you lay out your religious views for all to see.
I know from your past that you oppose the concept of the separation of church and state, and that you are a Christian who holds conservative beliefs on issues such as abortion and LGBT rights. Do you want to call me a liar?
Were the pagans unable to celebrate a thing they chose to?
No one stole anything.
During the rise of the Catholic Church yes, they were, in fact they were generally burned at the stake if they did celebrate their religion.
Wah, wah, wah.
No one stole a thing.
Sheesh, 2000+ years later and STILL can't get over it?!?
Gee, I am sorry the pagans weren't strong enough in their belief that someone ELSE celebrating something on their holiday would ruin their religion.
And how is this mumbo-jumbo related to some cruel teacher doing something stupid to a bunch of kids again?
Ah, there goes epistle again, misquoting people so she can win another straw man argument. I never said it was it was founded as a Christian country. We'll see if you have the integrity to admit what you have done. I won't hold my breath.
BUZZZ.
Oh, I'm sorry, that's a wrong answer.
BUZZZ. Oh I AM sorry. You're wrong again! That is a shame. But don't feel bad, we have some lovely consolation prizes. And thank you for playing.
Honest? Unwilling to lie to children?
Most children in this culture are taught to believe in Santa Claus and I believe that most 1st graders still do.
It is hardly her place to ruin Christmas for these families.
There are probably a few homely children in her class. Does "honesty" require her to tell them they are weird looking?
While I agree, the topic shouldn't ever be brought up in public school, if directly asked her beliefs I see no reason why she should be forced to lie.
I don't know why, but I never did believe in Santa Clause. My parents did their best to install that belief in me I just never bought into it.
I'll go with arrogant and disrespectful. She didn't have a professional need to talk about Santa at all.
The answer is "We're not here to talk about my beliefs. We're here to do schoolwork."
We know that the basis of the Santa Claus myth actually existed, unlike Jesus.
This comment and your quote, which I won't read, have nothing to do with my comment that you are replying to. If you want to change topics, maybe try posting your own original comment.
In third grade using an encyclopedia and the dictionary as proof I made my case to the class that Santa was, "Mythical", and thus not real. Many tears were shed and later my parents received several angry phone calls...
were you proud of yourself?
Proving anything to a group at 9 or 10 years old, I would be.
Reality is reality. And yeah I get it.
Reality is "Life's A Bitch And Then You Die".
Claiming that something must be done because we can't have children accepting fantasy is wrong thinking. Mythology plays a very important part in healthy human psychology.
John, I see this particular incident as one where a child figured out the truth and was anjous to share it. I dont blame them.
As far as presenting their findings to a group I'm sure that child had no idea of what he was doig. But to be able to make your case so well at that age is an achievement in my book even if it was misdirected and as you put it wrong.
Mythology plays a very important part in healthy human psychology.
Personally I have had better results learning to deal with and living in reality.
In today's world of modern technology fantasy and reality are harder than ever to distinguish between , The cartoons we watched, you knew they were fake, not so much today.
Today I'd say we have plenty of non reality, so much some have a hell of a time dealing with the real thing.
I agree, as long as it's always presented as mythology. I told my two daughters that I will never lie to them, and so far I haven't. There are thing's I haven't told them of course, I don't need to fill their heads with every little detail about adult life, but I see no reason to lie to children simply for expedience's sake. I told them they can ask me anything and I will answer truthfully, just don't ask something they really don't want to hear about.
While we can have great fun with our Children using their imaginations, make believe, fantasy, fiction, fairy tales, all of them are healthy and wonderful for kids, as long as you don't try and pass any of them off as truth. As soon as they're old enough to find out you've been lying to them, they'll have learned one additional fact along with Santa not being real, that their parents are liars. It's what I took away from the experience as a 7 year old learning Santa wasn't real from my older brother. From then on I had a sliver of doubt in virtually everything my pastor father would preach. "If they lied to me about that, what else have they been lying about?" I thought to myself. And thank goodness I did. It was their lies that eventually lead me to question the Christian faith, examine it, study it and eventually abandon it as the flawed fantasy that it is. So go ahead, lie to your kids, it's your prerogative. But remember, they might just question your entire faith as I did because you claim on one hand that Satan exists and is the father of the lie, then you tell them Santa exists and then later find out you're lying.
Irrelevant.
I found out Santa wasn't real when I woke up in the middle of Christmas Eve night and saw my mother and father laying the kids toys out under the tree. I was probably 8 or 9, I don't exactly remember.
Didn't bother me a bit that they had been "liars" all those years.
-
Santa Claus is real.
LOL Yeah irrelevant If ya live in cartoon land maybe, But here in reality its been a real benefit.
You are the one relating your experiences in reality with kids believing in Santa Claus. Hundreds of millions of kids around the world believe in Santa Claus when they are young. It doesn't harm them a bit.
The fact that an adult such as yourself would rather live in "reality" is irrelevant to that.
Sooner or later we all end up here. Like it or not. Even if its the last breath a person takes.
There really is no way to avoid reality. IMO" The soon a human realizes that the better off they are.
Yeah let the kids enjoy the fantastic but at some point they need to understand reality or it will crush them.
IMO" We support enough people that never learned how to deal with reality.
And that's fine, not everyone was as precocious as I was at 7.
As for the story, the very first line is a lie, why would any intelligent 8 year old read any further?
What is a lie?
"VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong." The very first sentence was a blatant lie, and slanderous to boot. He just falsely accused her friends of being liars.
Also, what eight year old would say "Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.". Why wouldn't she just call them her friends? Smells rather contrived if you ask me.
I'm not that familiar with how 8 year olds writing letters to the editor may have phrased things in the late 19th century. Maybe her parents helped her form the letter.
The editor isn't lying when he says the girl's friends are wrong. The rest of his response explains why he said that.
Being encouraged to believe in what doesn't exist. Santa, The Easter Bunny, God.
If you're clever and want your kids to have the same fun other kids are having, you can allow Santa into their lives without lying to them.
Meany
lol
At least you found out for yourself.
I had a Mean Mom moment when the Tooth Fairy was slacking off and I just couldn't contain it any longer. I told both kids "You know what? The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist! Neither does Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny!"
They were about 6 and 7 at the time....
wow
I'll bet your own X-mas gifts after that were crap for a few years. ...LOL
Well maybe not the kids were young enough they didn't know to retaliate ... yet.
LOL. Cant say as I can blame ya but.. wow
lol
I can just imagine though after telling a kid that on getting a piece of paper as my christmas gift from them saying simply "Merry christmas mom from me not santa." "PS: Mom, I was short on money so this IS your christmas gift hope ya enjoy it,"
year after year, cause paybacks are a bitch !!!
LOL
I figured the tooth fairy thing out when my father ended up with 3 stitches on his thumb. It would seem that when he tried to slide the money under my pillow, I bit him.
By the time they were giving me gifts they had forgotten the Mean Mommy Moment
LOL.. I remember as children making christmas gifts for our families in school. If mom had said that to me, she wold have gotten my note. Year after year till I got over it.
I can be and always could be quite the asshole when provoked.
lol
Jeez, who ever decided that under the pillow was the best place for the exchange? I remember almost outing the tooth fairy when my kid woke up.
Santa needs to put a one ton lump of coal in that bitch's stocking. Too many children are already losing the innocence of childhood without her adding to it.
I clearly remember disclosing that God doesn't exist in a car ride with my friend, when his super Catholic mom was driving. I was in middle school, and yelled for God to do something about it if he didn't like me denying his existence. She lost her mind. God has yet to do something about it.
Perhaps God merely let you make your own choices.
What a convenient excuse.
So you think the creator of all things should be compelled to do tricks to impress you when you demand it. You might have an overinflated sense of your own importance.
So you think the creator of all things should be compelled to do tricks to impress you when you demand it.
The “creator of all things” gives exactly the same amount of evidence for its existence as any other entity that doesn’t exist. I guess that impresses you.
I see you want to change the subject now. Interesting.
The subject of your response to me is about evidence. Let’s see some evidence of god. That evidence is every bit as elusive as evidence for Santa.
You mean they're not the same guy??
You have already established your own standard. It's not up to me to hunt around for something else to convince you. My only purpose was to point out how arrogant your standard is. Lots of atheists think they are in a position to define God and then tear him down. It's the ultimate straw man argument, characterized by the ultimate in absurdity.
As for offering you other evidence, why would I waste the effort on someone who's got it all figured out already? i.e. closed mind.
The evidence for Santa? Do you imagine someone here is trying to prove something about Santa? Are the concepts of imagination and fun really this alien to you? That's pretty sad.
You have already established your own standard.
Oh, now you know my standards? Lol. I offered a short anecdote and now that is my ‘standard’. Sure, in my whole life, forced to attend church every Sunday until high school, then attending a Jesuit high school, even allowing my kids to attend catholic school k-8 so that they can get the exposure to make up their own minds about religion - but my ‘standard’ for religiosity is whatever you want it to be. Sounds like you have a god complex yourself.
The ultimate in absurdity is accepting the biggest myth humanity has ever conjured up without a shred of evidence. All the evidence points to the non-existence of a sentient creator. If there is a god, it’s hardly something to revere. Feel free to dispute that.
Nope, only what you said it was. Sorry, but I am not responsible for the words you choose to write.
Aren't you called as a Christian to spread the good news? How do you respond to someone who has never heard the message before and will take some convincing especially if that person is dubious about the existence of a Supreme Being?
Yes, but you'll notice I'm not trying to save it done anyone's throat. You should be applauding my restraint.
You're off-topic.
Apparently not since I didn't get a ticket.
I guess this subject makes you uncomfortable. No problem
Not at all. It's just so wildly off-topic and worthy of much more conversation and effort than I think can can be reasonably put in in this forum.
This is a good example of how steeped in Christianity our public schools are. This wouldn't even be a story if it was about a teacher telling the class that Rumplestiltskin wasn't real, or that wish granting Genies don't exist. But you go and tell the truth about some fictional Christian icon and "Stop the presses! We've got someone we can label as anti-Christian! It fits our war or Christians/war on Christmas narrative perfectly! Make it front page!".
Hey, the facts are what they are. It's pretty hard to deny that this jerk isn't waging a war on Christmas. I can't help it that you approve of her actions and yet are offended by the very accurate description of those actions. That's your hangup. Maybe try facing reality and understand that being mean is just that. No sugarcoating. You applaud this teacher's honesty? Well, "war on Christmas" is honest and appropriate given the facts.
Yeah, right, try again,
You can say there is no war all you like and it wouldn't surprise me. The people that engage in this meanness love to deny the truth of what they are doing. Their egos won't let them face their own cruelty. Going out of your way to tell kids that they are fools for thinking the things they think about Christmas is a clear attempt to ruin their good time. There's no other description for it but a war on their Christmas. You might as well slap them and claim you're not trying to hurt them.
Then let them run home to Mommy and she can soothe their fears and hurt feelings.
Seriously, why was this even a discussion in a public school?
That makes it ok?
Because an unprofessional teacher chose to bully children and violate the wishes of their parents.
Ok.
Now please go answer my question.
If telling the children facts, as is her job, is a war on Christmas you might want to reexamine your beliefs. You are at war with logic and reality.
It isn't anyone's job to tell six year olds there is no Santa Claus.
When you see a homely person on the street, do you walk up to them and say "damn you're ugly" ?
You have a "responsibility" to tell everyone the truth don't you?
I wouldn't lie to them and say that there is a Santa.
That would be a very rude thing to do.
I really like facts.
I did answer your question. The teacher controls the conversation, not a bunch of six year-olds.
This topic is not part of her job.
No, you are if you think Santa Claus is actually part of the curriculum.
Then keep Christmas out of public schools.
Oh, so you do recognize that there might be a time when withholding the truth might be the kinder thing to do.
I guess that doesn't apply when the militant atheist agenda is in play, though. Maybe if you thought the homely person was a christian, you might volunteer the information anyway.
That makes no sense! No one put Christmas in the school. It's in the kids, but no one can change that. The teacher has control over what she talks about. Not the kids. And no adult or school official made her talk about Christmas.
oh geez.. again ? did this teacher send out Christmas cards and write " Merry X-mas " on them too ?
it seems you are itching for a war of some kind against religion ...
When exactly did telling the truth kids the become part of a militant atheist agenda?
That would still be very rude. Even if they asked I would not do as you are suggesting. I've had bad hair days and days that I didn't feel good, and I would not want someone to do that to me. I would never go oput the way to hurt someone. We are discussing a topic so I put forth my opinion.
Apparently Wednesday, or whenever it was that this happened.
But this teacher did and you seem to be not only defending it, but cheering her on.
She didn't have to. She had her captive audience right in front of her. Lucky, right?
No, your comment makes no sense. I'd like it if the angry people of the world would let us enjoy Christmas as it is. I'm not the one causing trouble. This story isn't about me ruining Christmas for a couple dozen families. It's about this wacky "teacher" doing it.
Does it make you happy to know that she will not return to that district?
Yes, it does. It's a shame we can't undo her mean act. Unfortunately, there are a lot of mean people in the profession who should probably get out.
It is not healthy to tell children that Santa actually exists any more than Little Red Riding Hood, Mother Goose or the Easter Bunny. Santa is a myth and should be treated as one by parents so we do not open children up to not being able to tell lies from facts. We know that there is no Santa, so it isn't psychologically healthy to tell children otherwise. Stop gaslighting children.
How many children have you raised, exactly?
What is your problem, Jack?
Do you believe that Santa exists? Why would you tell children that Santa exists when it isn't true, or does Santa exist of you believe that he does?
Your link is full of opinion and a single anecdote. It's worthless. You claim to like science and data, well, just look around. You don't need a study. Do a simple observation. It's very clear that hundreds of millions of kids have grown up with Santa and turned out just fine. And the ones that don't didn't get that way because they got excited about Santa for a few years when they were little.
But that's not even the point of this seed. If you don't want your children doing the Santa thing, that's fine, but no one has the right to sabotage someone else's Christmas tradition.
I agree, it's a parents decision and if you do not want your children believing in santa that is fine, but if others do, then you need to keep your views to yourself on that matter and just concentrate on your own family.
I 100% agree and if everyone did that we wouldn't even have this story.
I am intelligent enough to post responses with civility and not involving personal attacks.
I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter.
A number of reasons. In no particular order.....
It's fun. Kids love it and parents love it. This bullshit about how "you shouldn't do that" is just angry leftist killjoys trying to make sure nobody else is happy, either.
It's a bonding experience for families. It's one of the few times where parents enthusiastically embrace the imaginative fantasies of their children. They do so because....and this is important....the parents had the same experiences when they were kids, they were good experiences, and they want their kids to share that.
It's a cultural experience that unites most of America. Even people who aren't very religious embrace the Santa Claus idea. Not embracing it makes you an outsider (just ask your Jewish or Muslim friends), and is arguably far more damaging to your child than enjoying a bit of traditional Christmas happiness.
I am being civil to you.
This isn't a partisan or political issue, so stop trying to deflect. Do you or do you not believe that Santa Claus exists? Children don't need to be told that Santa actually exists to have fun at Christmas.
Don't assume that I am like you.
LOL...
I dont remember much about my christmases as a child. I dont even know when I was made aware that santa was mom and dad. I do remember hating the cold though....lol
WE went to visit my grand parents one christmas in Florida when I was 6, I did not want to go back to Illinois.... ever...LOL
By 18 I was on my way. Never looked back much. Still don't. Life's better now ! Why would I ?
lol
I'm not sure if it's sadder that you post rudeness or that you don't realize it's rudeness.
Do you understand what a joke is? To borrow a phrase, "what is your problem, epistte"?
But to your "partisan political" point, I challenge you to find a conservative or moderate who thinks Santa is a bad thing. This whole no-Santa topic is firmly in the realm of the progressive "absolutely everything we do now is wrong and we should change it" belief system.
I'm guessing you don't think such a question is insulting, either. "What is your problem, epistte"?
They don't need soccer balls or video games or electric trains or new iPhones, either. But Santa is fun, and the reasons to participate vastly outweigh the reasons not to.....unless of course the family goal is to raise a new generation of angry, bitter outcasts just like Mom & Dad.
You began this discussion by attacking me both as a parent and then as a mother and then you immediately tried to transition your reply into a personal attack about political beliefs, so you have a lot of nerve to complain about me being rude. It seems to me that you are very upset because I refuse to take part in a religious and social tradition that you seem to hold dear, even to the point of me being a heretic in your eyes.
I used to be unnerved by anger and bluster from people such as you but now I see it for what it is. You apparently don't have a rational argument so you lash out at me in anger in hopes that I will cower and back off. That tactic worked about a decade ago but now I see through it. If you cannot stay on topic and rationally discuss my idea of telling children the truth that Santa Claus is a myth instead of telling them that Santa is real then I would prefer that you do not reply to me.
Your personal attack is noted.
.
I always thought that Santa was kind of silly. I knew that there was no Santa as soon as I understand the reason that I received at Christmas. I am the second youngest of 5 sisters and I learned that it was my parents because my sisters would babysit while they shopped and then my parents spend most of the weekend before Christmas wrapping them while my older sister took us to the movies.
I don't enjoy social and religious traditions so Christmas has never been something that I looked forward to. I'd happily sleep from Black Friday until January 2nd if it were possible.
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Why is that even an issue?
I'm not laughing, despite your attempt to spin it.
You are protecting like a 12 screen cineplex.
Kindly keep your sexist pandering to yourself. I am not amused.
How can it possibly be a religion when I am an atheist? What leftist icon are you claiming that I pray to?
You still have no argument.
How is this phrase from you not a personal attack?
i'm quite sure you stated that the "war on Christmas" involved writing "X-mas" on cards instead of Christmas, right ? what's the criteria now for this "war on Christmas" ?
the following comment made no sense:
since the article doesn't mention any kind of "war on Christmas" and in fact states:
so why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had Easter ruined for them ? why aren't you upset over the "couple dozen families" that have had the Tooth Fairy ruined for them ? both the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy don't involve Christmas at all, yet you are clamoring on about another supposed "war on Christmas". Give everyone the criteria for this "war on Christmas", and how you came to the "logical" conclusion that this woman in the article is having a "war on Christmas" (especially since she involved the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy)
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No, I did not. You might be confusing me with someone else.
Who said I wasn't? That bothers me, too.
you could be correct and i do apologize if that's the case - i'll have to check it out later, it's no biggie.
wait.. no "war on Easter" nor "war on the Tooth Fairy" mentioned tho ? ..... that seems very odd... how do you know it's specifically a "war on Christmas" when the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were mentioned as well ?
It may well be a war on those things, too. Why are we plunging into the weeds over semantics? It's definitely on war on something. Maybe family traditions. Why quibble?
What is it that's happening here?
I wonder if everyone agreeing that kids of 6 or 7 years of age should be told there is no Santa would also agree that people who are obsessed with superheroes (as adults) have a bigger problem, lol.
Why would we? I have no problem with people who are obsessed with Santa as long as they're not actually running around claiming he's real. If you do that as an adult, whether it be Santa or Superman, you're more likely to end up in the nut house than ComiCon.
Some people hate it when others are having fun.
That's the truth!
Seriously.
Pity the children who grow up in those families.
While I made my own kids aware of the truth very young so they never believed that sort of silliness. I also don't believe it's my job to make other parents children aware of the truth on this matter (it's their job)
While I don't believe in lying to children, I don't feel it's my job to inform everyone else's children. With my own daughter she had a close friend who's parents decided to lie to about Santa so I had the discussion with my daughter to not burst her friends bubble and just play along, not saying she believed but also not making an issue out of it and simply changing the subject if it comes up.
As for in school, I don't think Christmas, Christ or any religion should be discussed, public schools should be a place kept free of religious indoctrination. That way there's no chance an honest teacher like this one might confuse children already infected with such delusions.
Kids believe in all sorts of silliness, much of which will never be clear to their parents because the kids invented it in their own imaginations. Amazingly, hundreds of millions of children have believed in Santa Claus and grown up to be perfectly good adults.
Yep that they do
If you celebrate Christmas with your family, and you don't focus on gifts or guilt or selfishness, you focus on the true spirit of giving from the heart to those you love and to those in need, then hooray, it doesn't really matter you're rehashing an ancient pagan celebration to a Sun God. But if you're like most Christians, you're just caught up in the mob mentality of do it because it's tradition, and advertisers have you convinced you're a bad parent if you don't get your kids everything they want on December 25th. But years ago when I was a Christian I stopped to think, would the Christ depicted in the bible have celebrated this holiday like we do here in America? Not the Jesus I read about. He would have been disgusted by how commercial the holiday has become, how stores predict their futures based on Christmas profits, children greedily whine for more, parents physically fight over the limited trending toys of that season and often go into debt just to fulfill the expectation set upon them by Christian society.
"13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” John 2:13-16
Would the Christ in the bible have lied to this girl and told her Santa was real when we all know he isn't, just to appease her parents? Of course not, the Christ in the bible came to break old useless traditions, it's what he was eventually killed for, disrupting the status quo and revealing the established religion at the time as the fraud it had become.
Jesus loved fun. He famously turned water into wine (and good wine at that) to make a wedding more fun. There's nothing wrong with fun.
The analogy of the temple merchants is a very different situation.
Yeah, no Boones Farm or TJ Swan for him.
It's Two Buck Chuck at minimum ....... low cost miracles are more supernaturally efficient than high cost miracles.
Would you believe that I've actually had Christians try to tell me that it wasn't really wine it was grape juice?
These weren't particularly smart people considering the fact that grape juice doesn't keep well without refrigeration
That's what the church I grew up in taught.
Like I said, critical thinking skills are seriously lacking in some church doctrines.
Back when we first moved into our house, we were still attending Mass on Sundays (Saturdays if we wanted to drink and light up fire works). Anyway, the girl across the street that's the same age as my daughter kept trying to get my daughter to go to her church. They were Church of Christ and not the liberal United Church of Christ. These are the bible enthusiasts who run our town. So she was asking K about drinking wine for the Eucharist. K said she did. Well, this kid got all offended about it and said that is was illegal and kids shouldn't be drinking wine, blah, blah, blah.
That was the last we saw of that kid at our house
Lucky you.
PS: If that's all it takes, I'm buying a bottle of wine.
I never understood that idea but it is very common. The water wasn't safe to drink but the process of fermentation made the wine safe and extended its storage life. The alcoholic buzz was a bonus, but puritanical religious belief frowns upon fun and enjoying yourself.
I grew up Catholic and I know many people accused them of being drunks because they had no problem with alcohol.
Wow. See, that's not Christianity so much as Victorianism. I'd say a lot of the places where churches or church people seem to be oddly uptight about things comes from that influence a lot more than it comes from scripture.
And I agree with you. I do think that they take a part of scripture and bastardize it to make it fit their beliefs
I'm with Frank Costanza ..... just a simple Festivus, for the rest of us ..... now back to your Newstalkers daily airing of grievances ......
This is pretty mean, but it's also pretty arrogant to imagine that it's your place to set a bunch of 6 year-olds straight, contrary to the wishes of their parents. This is what evil looks like.
Sounds exactly like what the supposed father of the lie would want you to believe...
So you think it's laudable to mean to kids and force your views on them over the will of their parents. I sure hope you aren't around other people's kids.
I said no such thing. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of a Christian Holiday (based on an ancient Pagan holiday) where one of the traditions is lying to your children.
"44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. " John 8:44
It's kind of sad how so many articles on NT have to turn into "debates" about religion and the existence or non existence of God. The seeded article was really about the appropriateness of a teacher informing 6 year olds that there is no Santa Claus.
Do all atheists really believe that it is wrong for little children to believe in "magic"?
That sounds depressing.
But that debate, by its very nature, invites one to question the appropriateness of a teacher informing 6 year olds that there is a Santa Claus. How can you conclude it's inappropriate for a teacher to choose truth over fiction if you haven't questioned the necessity of the lie in the first place?
Pretty much every comment here agrees that it wasn't really the teachers place to volunteer such information against the parents wishes, and so far we have no motive for her decision to take it upon herself to inform these kids that elves don't exist, reindeer can't fly, there's no tooth fairy, no Easter Bunny and no Santa. Taking it upon yourself to correct others without being asked is not something I condone or support (though if they make a claim in an open forum they're inviting critique).
However, the core of this debate is deeper than just 'should this teacher have spilled the beans'. At its core it's a discussion over whether it's healthy to lie to your children in any form. If teaching your kids by example that lying is okay sometimes, that there are "little white lies", then I think you're teaching your children to lie and you really can't complain later on when they lie to you. And I believe it's doing far more harm to them than any good could come of supposedly encouraging a child's imagination. There are plenty of healthy ways to encourage an imagination without lying to them.
I agree.
I never taught my children to believe in the Santa Claus myth. I did have to caution them about telling other children that it was their parents who bought them gifts because I did not want them to get yelled at by angry adults.
I did not do the Santa myth because I did not want to explain to my kids why Santa rewarded some of their brattiest friends with every trendy toy of the year. I felt, and still feel, that teaching children that there is a man watching their every move and tallying a reward based on their being "bad or good" is psychological abuse.
I think that I just gave them a $1 for each baby tooth they lost, but I really can't remember.
Have you forgotten the hysteria that some Christian groups have over Harry Potter?
According to the Santa myth, "he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you are awake, he knows when you are bad or good".......
Do you really believe it is appropriate to teach small children that they are being spied on by Santa?
Grinches exist. I know several.
I hope you count me among them. That is my favorite part of Christmas holiday. I've tried to use this song as my December phone ring tone.
haha. I want to see the new Grinch movie. It looks funny. Love the screaming goat.
Hey! There you go we finally agree on something. That is my favorite Christmas tune also. Who says miracles don't happen.
I'm looking for a 8' tall inflatable Grinch for my yard.
My Sister/BIL have exactly that. I need to take a pic of it.
I found an 8' tall inflatable at Lowes for $100. I might have to buy it.
Just so you know where I stand on this whole Christmas thingy, if you don't already know, I celebrate Yule but, I also hold traditions that celebrate Christmas as well and, Hanukah, if someone comes up to me and, wishes me a Merry Christmas I wish it right back at them, the same for Hanukah or, any of the other celebrations at this time of the year. All of that being said there is one more thing I can add to this, my step-daughter still kind of believes in Santa and, she's thirty-seven and, yes, that is my fault. When she was 14 I introduced her to "Santa" at a Thanksgiving Dinner we were at, she said to me, "No, he's not Santa, Santa's not real", the gentleman had his name changed to Kris Kringle years before because he ran the North Pole in Colorado and, his drivers license said Kris Kringle on it, he showed it to her and, since that time she always asks me if it was real and, I tell her yes, it was real.
Very clever article. It sucks you in by pulling at your heart strings about young children's dreams being shattered by an evil women.
The underlying message is women need to stay home and raise their children.
Say what now?
Sorry......I'm sure I could come up with several witty things to say but I've been baking Christmas cookies for hours and I just don't have a decent conversation in me this evening.
seems a few here apply my grandmas advice of remember the reason for the season , even if its only your reason .
I remember when my kids started to question things and eventually having to answer that dreaded question , is santa real?
Now I have always enjoyed the season , and came to enjoy it even more after I became a father , even if Christmas morning meant I was sleep deprived , watching the kids and listening to the excitement was really the only gift I needed and desired .
How I explained it when asked was , of course santa is real , because Santa is within YOU, I told them what great gramma told me , to remember the reason for the season and told them that they had to find their own reason , for me it was of course as I said above with the kids , but it went further , to be nice to others , be helpful even if I wasn't asked to be , those were simply gifts of my time and effort , but it was something I gave free of any strings and never feeling I needed to be paid or repaid . I explained it to them that giving to others of your time and energies , is not only a gift to them from you , but one of the best gifts one can give to themselves .
I made sure that they knew , a gift didn't have to come from the store , be wrapped in ribbons and bows with colorful paper wrapping , it could be as simple as a greeting , shoveling a walkway unasked for , helping someone across the street, and doing so with a smile on ones face.
I also told them before they would know it , it would become second nature , and before long , it wouldn't just happen during the holidays , and like Scrooge from a Christmas carol, they would carry it the whole year long.
for me Christmas is for the kids , the presents , the excitement and anticipation , it is impossible not to get caught up with a childs imagination , but there always comes a time that they have to be let in on the secret everyone knows after a certain age , That Santa lives within each and every one of us , how we let him live , is also up to us.
So I will close this with ,a heart felt and warm, happy holidays to all , and to all , a good night.
I'm locking this seed. I get tired of everything on Newstalkers being turned into a discussion about the viability of Christianity or the belief in God.
The seed was about the appropriateness of a teacher telling 6 year olds there is no Santa Claus.
Plus, the seed is 5 days old and the discussion has run it's course.