DEMOCRATS UNANIMOUS AS HOUSE PASSES BILL FORCING SCHOOLS TO LET MALE ATHLETES COMPETE IN GIRLS’ SPORTS

  
Via:  1stwarrior  •  one week ago  •  227 comments

DEMOCRATS UNANIMOUS AS HOUSE PASSES BILL FORCING SCHOOLS TO LET MALE ATHLETES COMPETE IN GIRLS’ SPORTS

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


The Democratically controlled House of Representatives voted Friday 236-173 in favor of the Equality Act, which would require schools to include male athletes who identify as transgender girls on female sports teams.

Eight Republicans crossed party lines to vote for the bill, which had unanimous Democratic support.

The bill amends the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to make “sexual orientation and gender identity” protected characteristics under federal anti-discrimination law.

Among other things, that would force public schools to expand female athletic teams to include biological males who identify as transgender girls.

Republican Florida Rep. Greg Steube introduced a last-minute amendment to the bill that would have preserved Title IX’s protections of female athletic teams, but Democrats rejected it.

Every House Democrat but one co-sponsored the legislation. The only Democrat who wasn’t a co-sponsor, Illinois Rep. Dan Lipinski, announced his support for the bill following pressure from left-wing activists.

“People need to wake up. This radical bill is going to totally eliminate women’s and girls sports,” Republican Arizona Rep. Debbie Lesko warned in an op-ed Thursday.

Republican Missouri Rep. Vicky Hartzler and a half-dozen other House Republicans held a press conference Thursday in opposition to what Hartzler dubbed the “Inequality Act.”

“Congress enacted Title IX to provide equal opportunities for women in education and sports. All this is erased under H.R. 5,” Hartzler said at the press conference.

Three former elite female athletes, Doriane Coleman, Martina Navratilova and Sanya Richards-Ross, warned that the Equality Act would wreak havoc on women’s sports in an April 29 Washington Post op-ed.

“The legislation would make it unlawful to differentiate among girls and women in sports on the basis of sex for any purpose. For example, a sports team couldn’t treat a transgender woman differently from a woman who is not transgender on the grounds that the former is male-bodied,” the former athletes wrote.

“Yet the reality is that putting male- and female-bodied athletes together is co-ed or open sport. And in open sport, females lose,” the three women warned.

House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler, a Democrat from New York, insisted the bill wouldn’t put female athletes at a disadvantage.

“Many states have sexual orientation and gender identity nondiscrimination laws, and all of them still have women’s sports. Arguments about transgender athletes participating in sports in accordance with their gender identity having competitive advantages have not been borne out,” Nadler said at a April 2 hearing on the bill.

In Connecticut, one of the states to which Nadler was referring, two male runners have dominated girls’ high school track. A female competitor called the male runners’ advantage “demoralizing.”

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1stwarrior
1  seeder  1stwarrior    one week ago

The Dems/Libs have just had one of their finest hours - and the eight Repubs who voted for this need to become the Dems/Libs they truly are.

Next - the Senate is all going to be admitted to the nearest emergency room due to having such laughing fits and convulsions.

OMFG

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.1  Greg Jones  replied to  1stwarrior @1    one week ago

It's good to see the foolish Dems continue to destroy their once respected party.

They are so out of touch and step with everyday American citizens that it's unbelievable

I don't think the transgender vote will be big enough to get them over the hump.

I do see the House being retaken by the Republicans next year.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
1.1.1  seeder  1stwarrior  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1    one week ago

Greg - I truly can not believe that the party that sponsored and passed this bill (?) has any idea of what the vast, vast majority of American citizens are looking for in our government body.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.1.2  Greg Jones  replied to  1stwarrior @1.1.1    one week ago

I think they are going to learn it all over again at election time! 

 
 
 
XXJefferson#51
1.1.3  XXJefferson#51  replied to  1stwarrior @1.1.1    5 days ago

thanks for seeding this.  I’ve seeded warnings about this bill several times before it passed and the secular progressives defended the law and attacked the opposition as bigots.  Maybe you will have a better reception here than I did.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
1.2  Sparty On  replied to  1stwarrior @1    one week ago

Good gawd .... please tell me this is from the onion!

No?    We are wholly and totally screwed with leadership like this.

Unbelieveable

 
 
 
epistte
1.2.1  epistte  replied to  Sparty On @1.2    one week ago
Good gawd .... please tell me this is from the onion!

No?    We are wholly and totally screwed with leadership like this.

Unbelieveable

There have already been numerous threads on this subject. As long as the trans-female athletes are and have been on proper doses of both estrogen and androgen blockers for 6 months what more do you want them to do? Is the school going to pay for gender surgery if you want their testes removed? 

If trans-women (male to female) had to compete as male then trans men would have to compete as women. How do you think that would work out because those trans-men (female to male) have a much higher testosterone level.

Do you want to bans mtf and ftm athletes from participating in sports?

Maybe you could go all the way and ban black athletes from participating on an equal basis with white athletes or is that too obvious?

 
 
 
Cerenkov
1.2.2  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @1.2.1    one week ago

"Maybe you could go all the way and ban black athletes from participating on an equal basis with white athletes or is that too obvious?"

Ridiculous racebaiting does not address the issue at hand.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.3  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @1.2.1    one week ago
Do you want to bans mtf and ftm athletes from participating in sports?

No, we simply want biological males to compete as males, and biological females to compete as females.

Just asking for a tiny bit of sanity here.

 
 
 
epistte
1.2.4  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @1.2.3    one week ago
No, we simply want biological males to compete as males, and biological females to compete as females. Just asking for a tiny bit of sanity here.

Do you think that those female to male trans-boys with a male level of testosterone are going to be on an equal basis with CIS girls?

 
 
 
epistte
1.2.5  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @1.2.2    one week ago
"Maybe you could go all the way and ban black athletes from participating on an equal basis with white athletes or is that too obvious?" Ridiculous racebaiting does not address the issue at hand.

It is gender baiting in this issue.  Social conservatives have a problem with trans people.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/oct/02/athletes-racism-language-sports-cam-newton

https://www.livescience.com/10716-scientists-theorize-black-athletes-run-fastest.html

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.6  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @1.2.4    one week ago
Do you think that those female to male trans-boys with a male level of testosterone are going to be on an equal basis with CIS girls?

What I think is that males should compete against males, and females compete against females.

Period.

Full stop.

 
 
 
epistte
1.2.7  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @1.2.6    one week ago
What I think is that males should compete against males, and females compete against females.

Period.

Full stop.

Trans boys were born female and now they are living as males and taking larges doses of testosterone to masculinize their body to match their male gender identity.

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.8  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @1.2.7    one week ago
Trans boys were born female

EXACTLY, and they should compete as females.

 
 
 
epistte
1.2.9  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @1.2.8    one week ago
EXACTLY, and they should compete as females.

Di you really think that a transboy with a male gender identity and a male level of testosterone is going to be a fair match for a genetic female?

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.10  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @1.2.9    one week ago
Di you really think that a transboy with a male gender identity and a male level of testosterone is going to be a fair match for a genetic female?

Not sure about every state, but most have regulations on the amounts of testosterone for athletes. Not sure that would be allowed by most athletic associations.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.2.11  Greg Jones  replied to  epistte @1.2.9    6 days ago

Anyone born male will have an unfair physical advantage over anyone born female. Testosterone levels don't change body type or strength.

The war on women by the Democrats continues unabated.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
1.2.12  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @1.2.5    6 days ago

Black isn't a gender. Try another spin...

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
1.2.13  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Cerenkov @1.2.12    6 days ago

You can however be transblack like these two and while they are not black SJW rules insist we ignore reality and pretend they are black.

320

 
 
 
Sparty On
1.2.14  Sparty On  replied to  epistte @1.2.1    6 days ago
Maybe you could go all the way and ban black athletes from participating on an equal basis with white athletes or is that too obvious?

Or perhaps you could stop making completely ridiculous rationalizations.

less emotion please and more reason

 
 
 
Texan1211
1.2.15  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @1.2.14    6 days ago
less emotion please and more reason

jrSmiley_81_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Don Overton
1.2.16  Don Overton  replied to  Sparty On @1.2.14    3 days ago

[delete]

 
 
 
Sparty On
1.2.17  Sparty On  replied to  Don Overton @1.2.16    2 days ago

deleted for context

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
1.2.18  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Cerenkov @1.2.12    2 days ago

No, but the analogy for the past discrimination against black athletes is a solid one. 

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
1.2.19  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @1.2.13    2 days ago

You're kind of a jeenyus at picking out these rare examples of absurd claims, never letting go of them and pretending it's some widespread phenom.  You don't seem to be able to dismount your hobbyhorse.  And I've got a new abbreviation since you love that SJW one:  SIW -- Social Injustice Warrior, and I credit you as the inspiration and dub you this movement's founder.  Congratulations.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
1.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  1stwarrior @1    6 days ago

I wish the left luck (sarc) gettin that piece of filth they call legislation past the Senate which they do not control. I foresee a crash and burn on this one...jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
zuksam
2  zuksam    one week ago

"The bill amends the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to make “sexual orientation and gender identity” protected characteristics under federal anti-discrimination law."   This means any male who claims to identify as female is now eligible for any and all female sports scholarships by law. No he does not have to be taking hormones or have any surgery. All he has to do is be better at his chosen sport than the females who would normally win those scholarships and they will forced to award the scholarship to him. So much for women's rights.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
2.1  seeder  1stwarrior  replied to  zuksam @2    one week ago

But, if the Dems/Libs are going to start pulling these kinds of stunts - I think we need to be on the lookout at what other Civil Rights and Constitutional Rights they are going to start tearing apart.

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
2.2  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  zuksam @2    2 days ago
All he has to do is be better at his chosen sport than the females who would normally win those scholarships and they will forced to award the scholarship to him.

You really think that cis-males are going to sign up for girls/women sports just to excel?  First off even thinking that makes you suspicious and it also sounds like something Cadet Bonespur and The Shitbag of a "president" we have would have done when he was in school but any male who'd try this stunt would  get such well-deserved ridicule that his high school career would be a living hell-- also well deserved. 

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
3  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉    one week ago

So much for femanism. Men will now dominate women's sports.

Democrats decided it's a man's world.

jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

Ms. Doubtfire will now be the state 100 meter women's champion.

 
 
 
zuksam
3.1  zuksam  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @3    one week ago

On a positive note Girl's Basketball just got a whole lot better.

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
3.1.1  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  zuksam @3.1    one week ago

In hindsight Beto could have actually lettered in women's volleyball and had an actual accomplishment on his resume.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.2  epistte  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @3.1.1    one week ago
In hindsight Beto could have actually lettered in women's volleyball and had an actual accomplishment on his resume.

 I wasn't aware that Beto was transgendered.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
3.1.3  Cerenkov  replied to  epistte @3.1.2    one week ago

All he has to do is pretend. That's all it takes.

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.4  epistte  replied to  Cerenkov @3.1.3    one week ago
All he has to do is pretend. That's all it takes.

Are trans people pretending?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.4    one week ago
Are trans people pretending?

Some might think so.

After all, the science says they were born a certain sex. 

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.6  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.5    one week ago
Some might think so.

Those people are ignorant.

After all, the science says they were born a certain sex. 

Your biological gender (chromosomes/DNA) doesn't always guarantee that same person's psychological gender identity will be the same. That is the core of what a transgendered person is.

What about interssexxed people who are neither gender?

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.6    one week ago
doesn't always guarantee that same person's psychologial gender identity will be the same. That is the core of what a transgendered person is.

Sounds MUCH more like a psychological problem than a physical problem then.

What about interssexxed people who are neither gender?

What about them? Do you think we should force schools to field teams for them? Will there even be enough to field a team from one school? Not a chance!

 
 
 
epistte
3.1.8  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.7    one week ago
Sounds MUCH more like a psychological problem than a physical problem then.

It is psychological but since we cannot change a persons gender identity to match their body medical science changes the body to match their innate gender identity with hormones and then surgery.

What about them? Do you think we should force schools to field teams for them? Will there even be enough to field a team from one school? Not a chance!

You clearly missed the point that i was trying to make. Do intersexxed students play on the male or female team because their biological gender and often psychological gender identity is a mix of both genders and most do not take hormones or have surgery.

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @3.1.8    one week ago
It is psychological but since we cannot change a persons gender identity to match their body medical science changes the body to match their innate gender identity with hormones and then surgery.

I don't care.

You clearly missed the point that i was trying to make. Do intersexxed students play on the male or female team because their biological gender and often psychological gender identity is a mix of both genders and most do not take hormones or have surgery.

Not playing the "What If" game. Show me an intersexed high schooler who wants to play sports and isn't allowed and then we can discuss.

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.2  TᵢG  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @3    one week ago
Ms. Doubtfire will now be the state 100 meter women's champion.

Not with the frontal baggage she carried.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
4  Sean Treacy    one week ago

Crazy times we live in.

This going to make great fodder for whoever authors the America focused equivalent of Gibbon's  Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire in a thousand years. 

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
4.1  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Sean Treacy @4    one week ago

Just wait until the entire women's softball team has to wear cups. There won't be a single female playing sports at the collegiant level.

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tacos!
4.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @4.1    one week ago
Just wait until the entire women's softball team has to wear cups.

Anyone (teen or older) who developed as male has longer limbs and larger hands and feet than the typical female of the same age. All the hormone treatments in the world won't unmake a longer arm with a larger hand at the end of it. Anyone who doesn't think that would be a huge advantage has never tried to throw a softball.

 
 
 
epistte
4.1.2  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.1    one week ago
Anyone (teen or older) who developed as male has longer limbs and larger hands and feet than the typical female of the same age. All the hormone treatments in the world won't unmake a longer arm with a larger hand at the end of it. Anyone who doesn't think that would be a huge advantage has never tried to throw a softball.

Are you suggesting that tall females (5-10-6-2") have an unfair advantage over average females who are 5'4"?  I'm 5-10 but I'm hopeless at sports, despite my height.

 It is the muscles that are the core ability to throw or run.

 
 
 
Texan1211
4.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @4.1.2    one week ago
Are you suggesting that tall females (5-10-6-2") have an unfair advantage over average females who are 5'4"? I'm 5-10 but I'm hopeless at sports, despite my height.

Unfair? NO. But they would have an advantage. Just like someone who has some talent and practices a lot and improves that talent has an advantage over a novice to a sport, generally speaking.

A male will often have advantages over women in sports. 

 
 
 
epistte
4.1.4  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.3    one week ago
A male will often have advantages over women in sports. 

Are you aware that those trans-boys compete with CIS boys on an equal basis and win? What would happen with the same trans-boys competing with CIS females?

 
 
 
Texan1211
4.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @4.1.4    one week ago
Are you aware that those trans-boys compete with CIS boys on an equal basis and win? What would happen with the same trans-boys competing with CIS females?

If you can't recognize that males have some advantages in sports you are simply fooling yourself.

There are also male-to-females competing and winning.

Who cares?

 
 
 
TᵢG
4.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  epistte @4.1.4    one week ago
Are you aware that those trans-boys compete with CIS boys on an equal basis and win? What would happen with the same trans-boys competing with CIS females?

Good point.

This, to me, suggests that we have a new challenge to address similar to the performance enhancing drugs problems of sports.   Is the hormone therapy for transgenders akin to performance enhancing drugs?

This will be a substantial debate.

 
 
 
epistte
4.1.7  epistte  replied to  TᵢG @4.1.6    one week ago
 Is the hormone therapy for transgenders akin to performance enhancing drugs? This will be a substantial controversy.

It is testosterone but if they are female to male trans that is medically supported part of the transition process to masculinize their body.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/ftm-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099

 
 
 
Texan1211
4.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @4.1.7    one week ago
It is testosterone but if they are female to male trans that is medically supported part of the transition process to masculinize their body.

That won't matter to most athletic associations because they are dedicated to level playing fields.

 
 
 
epistte
4.1.9  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.8    one week ago
That won't matter to most athletic associations because they are dedicated to level playing fields.

They cannot expect a teen to endanger their life by stopping testosterone treatment.

That trans-boy should be competing with CIS boys, just as the trans-girl should be competing with CIS girls.

 
 
 
Tacos!
4.1.10  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @4.1.2    6 days ago
Are you suggesting that tall females (5-10-6-2") have an unfair advantage over average females who are 5'4"? 

They may have an advantage, but it's a fair advantage because they didn't have the benefit of testosterone impacting their body development. Their advantage is simply part of the ordinary variation in women.

No playing field is perfectly even for the participants, but sports have been segregated by sex because the differences in how boys and girls develop is dramatic and the great bulk of naturally developed women will not be able to overcome the advantage males have. Thus, the joys, challenges, and benefits of competitive sports are closed to them - or would be but for Title IX.

Bigger muscles are not the only advantage males have. Males actually grow different types of muscles, so even if they shrink, they may still be more competitive muscles. Bone density takes longer to decrease than muscle size. This is also an advantage. As I mentioned above, certain structures develop larger in males, giving an advantage. Hands are larger, which is huge in a sport like softball. Heart and lungs are larger, increasing cardiovascular efficiency. Hips form so that the legs of males are more directly underneath the torso, making them more effective at supporting weight and performing agile movements. The proportion of leg length to torso will also tend to be different.

These are all factors that aid in athletic performance and are typically not seen in a person who develops as a female. If a person develops as a male, even if you give him hormone treatments for years, most of these advantages will remain. That's not fair and it undoes - albeit in small numbers - the crucial progress that has been made on behalf of the female athlete.

 
 
 
Texan1211
4.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @4.1.9    6 days ago
They cannot expect a teen to endanger their life by stopping testosterone treatment.

As far as I can tell, no one here has suggested any such thing.

That trans-boy should be competing with CIS boys, just as the trans-girl should be competing with CIS girls.

That is nothing more than your opinion. My opinion is that males should compete against other males, and females against other females.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
4.1.12  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @4.1.9    6 days ago
just as the trans-girl should be competing with CIS girls.

Possibly under the new IAAF rules, this would be feasible and fair to everyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/25/iaaf-testosterone-rules-caster-semenya

The Olympic 800m champion Caster Semenya could run up to seven seconds slower under new rules requiring her to lower her natural testosterone levels to race internationally, a prominent sports scientist has predicted.

Under rules due to be announced on Thursday morning by the IAAF, the world athletics governing body, a separate female classification for an athlete with differences of sexual development (or DSDs) will be introduced. Such athletes, including Semenya, will have to reduce and then maintain their testosterone levels to no greater than 5nmol/L by 1 November if they want to compete in events ranging from 400 metres to a mile.

The International Association of Athletics Federations believes its new rules will “preserve fair and meaningful competition in the female classification” because women athletes with high testosterone have an advantage of up to 9% over women with normal levels of testosterone.

The move, which is sure to divide opinion, was unanimously approved by the IAAF council last month. According to the world-renowned sports scientist Ross Tucker, the effect will be significant on athletes such as Semenya. “If this policy passes, then I would predict that Semenya will be five to seven seconds slower over 800 metres,” he wrote.

“The other really interesting thing is that, guided by the new IOC transgender policy that lowers the upper limit for testosterone to 5nmol/L, the IAAF are setting their limit at 5nmol/L. It used to be 10. That will slow the times of these athletes down even more than it did in the past.”

He told the Guardian: “History suggests Semenya will lose about four seconds to five seconds. Because in 2013 and 2014, when the IAAF were diligent about ensuring her compliance with the upper limit at that time (10nM), she was running 2:00. I don’t think she even qualified for the Commonwealth Games. Now, at 5nM, that effect will be even larger, I suspect. She will go from a 1:54 to 2:01-2:03, is my estimate.”

Semenya burst on to the scene in 2009 when she won the world 800m titlebut was then required to take testosterone-suppressing medicine by the IAAF in order to compete. However, in July 2015 the court of arbitration for sport reversed that rule when it examined the Dutee Chand case – allowing inter-sex athletes to compete without taking testosterone-suppressing medication.

The decisive factor for the Cas panel in 2015 was whether testosterone above the 10nmol/L threshold set by the IAAF gave female athletes a competitive advantage over their fellow competitors. However research by the IAAF since then shows that in certain events testosterone does make an enormous difference. An IAAF report notes that “most females have low levels of testosterone circulating naturally in their bodies (0.12 to 1.79 nmol/L in blood); while after puberty the normal male range is much higher (7.7 – 29.4 nmol/L). Absent a DSD or a tumour, no female would have serum levels of testosterone approaching 5 nmol/L, but individuals with DSDs can have very high levels of natural testosterone, extending into and even beyond the normal male range.”

 
 
 
mocowgirl
4.1.13  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @4.1.12    6 days ago

The IAAF rules have science on their side.  

If the goal is to be fair to all involved, then isn't it prudent to continue to use every bit of science technology available to us today?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/25/iaaf-testosterone-rules-caster-semenya

The IAAF also makes it clear that science is on its side. In its report it writes: “There is a broad medical and scientific consensus that if these individuals are sensitive to androgens (ie, they have properly-functioning androgen receptors), such very high levels of natural testosterone can increase their muscle mass and strength, as well as their levels of circulating haemoglobin, and so significantly enhance their sporting potential.

“This evidence shows clearly that (at least in certain events) DSD athletes with levels of circulating testosterone in the normal male range have a very significant competitive advantage over female athletes with testosterone levels in the normal female range.”

It also uses numbers to back up its case. As it notes: “In particular, increasing testosterone levels in women from 0.9 nmol/L to just 7.3 nmol/L increases muscle mass by 4% and muscle strength by 12-26%; while increasing it to 5, 7, 10 and 19 nmol/L respectively increases circulating haemoglobin by 6.5%, 7.8%, 8.9% and 11% respectively. Taking all available knowledge and data into account, the experts estimate that the ergogenic advantage in having circulating testosterone levels in the normal male range rather than in the normal female range is greater than 9%.”

“To the best of our knowledge, there is no other genetic or biological trait encountered in female athletics that confers such a huge performance advantage.”

In explaining its decision, the IAAF said it was trying to create “a level playing field and ensure that success is determined by talent, dedication, hard work, and the other values and characteristics that the sport embodies and celebrates”.

It added: “The IAAF wants athletes to be incentivised to make the huge commitment and sacrifice required to excel in the sport, and so to inspire new generations to join the sport and aspire to the same excellence. It does not want to risk discouraging those aspirations by having unfair competition conditions that deny athletes a fair opportunity to succeed.

“Because of the significant advantages in size, strength and power enjoyed (on average) by men over women from puberty onwards, due in large part to men’s much higher levels of circulating testosterone, and the impact that such advantages can have on sporting performance, it is generally accepted that competition between male and female athletes would not be fair and meaningful, and would risk discouraging women from participation in the sport. Therefore, in addition to separate competition categories based on age, the IAAF has also created separate competition categories for male and female athletes.
 
 
 
Don Overton
4.1.14  Don Overton  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.1    3 days ago

Gosh how did you get a degree in medicine in the 5 minutes you thought that one up

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
4.1.15  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.8    2 days ago
That won't matter to most athletic associations because they are dedicated to level playing fields.

Do you mean having both teams on a field held to the same rules?  IOW, what should be the status quo.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
4.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @4.1.15    2 days ago
Do you mean having both teams on a field held to the same rules?

Yes, very good, you got it. 

SAME rules. Do you think a male transitioning to a female will have the same levels of testosterone as a female?

 
 
 
Tacos!
5  Tacos!    one week ago
Republican Florida Rep. Greg Steube introduced a last-minute amendment to the bill that would have preserved Title IX’s protections of female athletic teams, but Democrats rejected it.

Democrats declare war on young women. Shameful. Just shameful. 

There are ways to treat trans kids fairly without destroying the opportunities for female athletes. As someone who coached and advocated for female athletes for two decades, I am disgusted.

Three former elite female athletes, Doriane Coleman, Martina Navratilova and Sanya Richards-Ross, warned that the Equality Act would wreak havoc on women’s sports in an April 29 Washington Post op-ed.

What happened to "listen to women?" What happened to "believe women?"

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
5.1  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 days ago
What happened to "listen to women?" What happened to "believe women?"

Your side destroyed that concept with Kavanaugh, that's what happened. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
5.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @5.1    2 days ago

smh. My "side" - whatever that means - hasn't been going around saying "believe any wild accusation just because the person saying it is female." Here, you have women with experiences everyone can see and yet people are disregarding what they have to say or dismissing it as bigotry, and all over a cause that that "side" used to endorse. I'm amazed I even have to explain, much less point out, the massive hypocrisy of that.

 
 
 
Dulay
5.1.2  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.1    2 days ago
yet people are disregarding what they have to say or dismissing it as bigotry

Would you please link a comment in this seed that does that. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
5.1.3  Tacos!  replied to  Dulay @5.1.2    2 days ago

I never said I was referencing a comment in this seed. You referenced Kavanaugh, so I assume you are familiar with the events and opinions surrounding that name around the whole nation. If not, I suggest you go read up on it with my comment in mind.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
6  Thrawn 31    one week ago

Outside of the Olympics and Women's world Cup, who cares?

 
 
 
Ronin2
6.1  Ronin2  replied to  Thrawn 31 @6    one week ago

Any girl that is trying to compete at the high school level to get a college scholarship. 

Or are you against girls/women being able to compete on a level playing field?

 
 
 
Cerenkov
6.1.1  Cerenkov  replied to  Ronin2 @6.1    one week ago

Apparently so.

 
 
 
Texan1211
7  Texan1211    one week ago

All the real things that need addressing in our country, and our fine Democratic friends choose THIS?

LMFAO!

How out-of-touch with mainstream America can they get?

 
 
 
Dulay
7.1  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @7    3 days ago
All the real things that need addressing in our country, and our fine Democratic friends choose THIS?

Well hell Tex, for days now yall chose to address a tiny minority of the people who will be effected by the bill so it seems fitting. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @7.1    3 days ago
Well hell Tex, for days now yall chose to address a tiny minority of the people who will be effected by the bill so it seems fitting.

Well, hell, Dulay, you surely can believe that this is an important issue--more important than healthcare, taxes, social safety net, immigration, campaign finance reform, worker's rights, education, banking reform, childcare, drug prices, insurance costs, student debt, income inequality --if you choose.

I just don't buy it is high on the list for mainstream America.

 
 
 
Dulay
7.1.2  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1.1    2 days ago
Well, hell, Dulay, you surely can believe that this is an important issue--more important than healthcare, taxes, social safety net, immigration, campaign finance reform, worker's rights, education, banking reform, childcare, drug prices, insurance costs, student debt, income inequality --if you choose.

Strawman. 

I just don't buy it is high on the list for mainstream America.

Yet you've been here for days posting comments about it...

jrSmiley_84_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
7.1.3  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1.1    2 days ago
I just don't buy it is high on the list for mainstream America.

No one's worried about selling to you. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @7.1.2    2 days ago

I hope Democrats follow your lead and make this an important campaign issue. Should be fun!

You should learn about strawmen arguments before accusing someone of using one. Might do some good.

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @7.1.3    2 days ago
No one's worried about selling to you.

Whew! That is such a relief!! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I wasn't in the market to buy bullshit anyways.

People can peddle that crap to someone who thinks it is more important than the items I already mentioned!

 
 
 
Dulay
7.1.6  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1.4    2 days ago
I hope Democrats follow your lead and make this an important campaign issue. Should be fun!

What 'lead' is that Tex? Please be specific. 

You should learn about strawmen arguments before accusing someone of using one. Might do some good.

Strawman: 

The straw man is a fallacy in which an opponent's argument is overstated or misrepresented in order to be more easily attacked or refuted.

Yep, that fit's your comment to a T. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @7.1.6    2 days ago
What 'lead' is that Tex? Please be specific.

Exactly what part of "I hope Democrats follow your lead and make this an important campaign issue." did you noit understand? I WAS pretty specific----read it again if it isn't clear to you.

Yep, that fit's your comment to a T.

Just because you read something doesn't mean you understood it or applied it correctly.

Have a nice day.

 
 
 
Dulay
7.1.8  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @7.1.7    2 days ago
Exactly what part of "I hope Democrats follow your lead and make this an important campaign issue." did you noit understand? I WAS pretty specific----read it again if it isn't clear to you.

I understood your words Tex. I don't know how the hell you came to the unfounded conclusion that I was leading anyone, anywhere. 

Just because you read something doesn't mean you understood it or applied it correctly.

Just because you're desperate to pretend that your comment wasn't a strawman doesn't mean it wasn't. I'll let other members decide for themselves...

 
 
 
Texan1211
7.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @7.1.8    2 days ago

GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
 
Texan1211
8  Texan1211    one week ago

Is this the beginning of the Democratic War on Women?

 
 
 
Don Overton
8.1  Don Overton  replied to  Texan1211 @8    3 days ago

Yet republicans have been declaring war on women for the last century

 
 
 
Texan1211
8.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Don Overton @8.1    3 days ago
Yet republicans have been declaring war on women for the last century

Its nice to have dreams. 

Don't you ever give them up, no-sir-ee!

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
8.2  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @8    2 days ago
Is this the beginning of the Democratic War on Women?

Republicans will never surrender on that front.  

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9  Phoenyx13    one week ago

do people actually believe that cisgendered boys are going to pretend to be transgendered girls just to compete in girl's sports and try to win ? so they can - what - brag they won in girl's sports ? jrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9    one week ago
do people actually believe that cisgendered boys are going to pretend to be transgendered girls just to compete in girl's sports and try to win ? so they can - what - brag they won in girl's sports ?

Why not?

Most high schoolers know what sex they are. Some just pretend otherwise.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.1  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    one week ago
Why not? Most high schoolers know what sex they are. Some just pretend otherwise.

Most high school students aren't transgendered either. Why would a students pretend to be trans and take massive doses of hormones just  for a trophy?

[deleted]

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.2  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    one week ago
Why not? Most high schoolers know what sex they are. Some just pretend otherwise

so you seriously believe that this will be the new trend - that cisgendered boys will pretend to be transgendered girls so they can win at girls sports and brag to their friends about it ? do you think colleges will start handing out scholarships to cisgendered boys for pretending to be transgendered girls and winning at girl's sports ?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.1    one week ago
Mos high school students aren't transgendered either. Why would a students pretend to be trans?

Well, gee, thanks for that earth-shattering news. Most HS students aren't transgendered. Well, no shit.

Don't know why people pretend to be things they aren't.

I just feel as though males should compete against other males. And females should compete against other females.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.4  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.3    one week ago
Don't know why people pretend to be things they aren't. I just feel as though males should compete against other males. And females should compete against other females.

Trans people aren't pretending anything. Their psychological gender (sense of self) is different from their physical gender.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.1    one week ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.4    one week ago
Trans people aren't pretending anything.

I never said they were. That answer was in response to a direct question from you. If you don't want an answer, perhaps not asking would work better.

Their psychological gender (sense of self) is different from their physical gender.

I don't give a rat's behind what they think about themselves. Doesn't have anything to do with competing in sports as a male or female--whichever one they were born as.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.2    one week ago
so you seriously believe that this will be the new trend - that cisgendered boys will pretend to be transgendered girls so they can win at girls sports and brag to their friends about it ? do you think colleges will start handing out scholarships to cisgendered boys for pretending to be transgendered girls and winning at girl's sports ?

I didn't say that, but it damn sure wouldn't surprise me in today's world.

No telling what colleges might do to get more money.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.8  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.7    one week ago
I didn't say that, but it damn sure wouldn't surprise me in today's world. No telling what colleges might do to get more money.

very interesting viewpoint..... out of curiosity - do you believe in pizzagate as well ?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.9  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.8    one week ago
out of curiosity - do you believe in pizzagate as well ?

WTF does THAT have to do with THIS?

Please, make the connection, because I damn sure can't see one---or are you merely trying to derail and deflect?

And for the record, since it seems important to you, the answer is no.

Do you still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.10  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.9    one week ago
WTF does THAT have to do with THIS?

Please, make the connection, because I damn sure can't see one---or are you merely trying to derail and deflect?

And for the record, since it seems important to you, the answer is no.

Do you still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

the connection - i'm curious as to what your mind will believe if you certainly think that the possibility exists that a new trend will happen that cisgendered boys will pretend to be transgendered girls so they can win at girl's sports... and that possibly colleges will hand out scholarships to cisgendered boys who pretended to be transgendered girls to win at girl's sports.  (i thought that connection was obvious, i apologize for making that assumption)

and if you were curious - I stopped believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and other imaginary friends before i became a teenager.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.10    one week ago
the connection - i'm curious as to what your mind will believe if you certainly think that the possibility exists that a new trend will happen that cisgendered boys will pretend to be transgendered girls so they can win at girl's sports... and that possibly colleges will hand out scholarships to cisgendered boys who pretended to be transgendered girls to win at girl's sports.

That is so thin as to be see-through.

Surely you can come up with something more substantive than that?

I will tell you one thing MY mind will never believe-------that I was born a male but am really a woman.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.12  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.11    one week ago
I will tell you one thing MY mind will never believe-------that I was born a male but am really a woman.

Congrats. Like more than 98% of the people you are not transgendered.  The fact that +/- 1.5% of people might be transgendered in some form. Either primary or secondary transgendered.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.13  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.11    one week ago
That is so thin as to be see-through.

Surely you can come up with something more substantive than that?

I will tell you one thing MY mind will never believe-------that I was born a male but am really a woman.

they are your words - not mine... so i was just curious how far your mind will go into believing certain things - like Pizzagate. if you can't make the further connections - that would be an issue you will need to resolve for yourself.

ok, so your gender identity aligns with your biological sex - congrats. i know you'll find this shocking - but not everyone is like you.

 
 
 
Iamak47
9.1.14  Iamak47  replied to  epistte @9.1.1    one week ago
Why would a students pretend to be trans and take massive doses of hormones just  for a trophy?

You’ve obviously never been associated with competitive sports.  People, including high school kids, do all kinds of things to their bodies in order to win.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.15  epistte  replied to  Iamak47 @9.1.14    one week ago
You’ve obviously never been associated with competitive sports.  People, including high school kids, do all kinds of things to their bodies in order to win.

What doctors is going to prescribe those hormones? Why would a boy take large does of estrogen to win a women's trophy and then attend college as a male? Do you have any idea the medical problems that would cause?  That amount of estrogen in a male brain would also cause severe depression and he would be sterile.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.16  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.13    one week ago
they are your words - not mine... so i was just curious how far your mind will go into believing certain things - like Pizzagate. if you can't make the further connections - that would be an issue you will need to resolve for yourself.

No issue for me. I'll toss that bit of trash where it belongs.

[deleted]

 
 
 
zuksam
9.1.17  zuksam  replied to  epistte @9.1.1    6 days ago
Why would a students pretend to be trans and take massive doses of hormones just  for a trophy?

First they don't have to take massive doses of hormones to qualify as trans and secondly there is more than just trophies up for grabs there are college scholarships that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Once sexual orientation and gender identity are protected characteristics under federal anti-discrimination law colleges will be forced to award these scholarships on merit alone. Typically only the top 1% of high school athletes get sports scholarships so this Law would put many of these scholarships in jeopardy.

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
9.1.18  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  epistte @9.1.4    6 days ago
Their psychological gender

Gender is biological, one's opinion doesn't change it. Under pressure the American Psychological Association has changed the definition to one based on opinion instead of science.

There are not 150 genders, there are two. 

What we have done here is normalize mental illness and demanded that people accept transgender for something they are not.

Science matters.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.19  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.1    6 days ago
Why would a students pretend to be trans and take massive doses of hormones just  for a trophy?

Why assume that everyone in that position is being honest?

Why would someone spend a million dollars to pretend to get their kid on a soccer team even though the kid doesn't play soccer? Why would someone in another country get pregnant and then sneak into America just so their kid could be a US citizen? Why would someone running for president coordinate with a historically antagonistic country like Russia to steal the election? Why would an actual sitting president risk everything to get blowjobs from an intern and then lie about it under oath? Why would a mother throw her own children off a bridge? Why would a famous TV star fake being threatened and attacked just to get attention when he already gets tons of it? Why would maybe the most loved black comic in America drug and rape women by the dozens?

Maybe you think some of these things are true and some aren't. That's not the point. The point is people do absurd crap like this or society at least understands that they would. But somehow everyone trying to be a trans female athlete is 100% honest?

And even if they are honest, they may still have an unfair advantage that they don't appreciate. These cases should be reviewable on an individual basis. There should not be a blanket policy one way or the other. It's too complex an issue.

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.20  Phoenyx13  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @9.1.18    5 days ago
Gender is biological, one's opinion doesn't change it.

biological sex is biological - research gender and gender identity, there's a difference between the two. one's opinion doesn't change the fact there's a difference between biological sex and gender.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.21  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.19    5 days ago
Why assume that everyone in that position is being honest?

It would be a medical violation to give a child medication under false pretenses for a condition that they do not have. Why would you go to that level and then not be transgendered?

There would be no great athletic endeavor to win as a female in high school and then go back to your CIS male gender in college.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.22  epistte  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @9.1.18    5 days ago
Gender is biological, one's opinion doesn't change it. Under pressure the American Psychological Association has changed the definition to one based on opinion instead of science. There are not 150 genders, there are two. 

I agree mostly but there are three genders if you would intersexxed. There is male, female and intersexxed, which has biological aspects of both genders. Those with gender identity incongruency are changing their biological gender to match their physical gender. they are not creating a new gender.

 Gender identity is based on medical science. Our brains appear to have a gender and it is very obvious that our personalities have a gender. 

  The other classes are sexual orientations or lack there-of and actions but they are not genders.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.23  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.21    5 days ago
It would be a medical violation

So because doing something would be stupid, dangerous and generally wrong, we shouldn't be on the alert for it?

There would be no great athletic endeavor to win as a female in high school and then go back to your CIS male gender in college.

Free college is pretty great. Preferential admission consideration because you've been through something like this is useful, too.

I'd love it if everyone were fair and honest, but they aren't.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.24  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.23    5 days ago
Free college is pretty great. Preferential admission consideration because you've been through something like this is useful, too. I'd love it if everyone were fair and honest, but they aren't.

Who would give a guy who won athletic awards as a female and then attended college as a guy?

We should be wary of the possibility but I don't see it being common. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.25  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.24    5 days ago
and then attended college as a guy?

This is the second time you have tried to argue against this point even though I didn't make it. I feel no obligation to defend a scenario I haven't proposed. I know you are familiar with the concept of a straw man.

I don't see it being common

Similarly, I have not said it would be common, nor would I. Many things are uncommon but that doesn't mean they are things we should ignore.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.26  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.25    5 days ago
This is the second time you have tried to argue against this point even though I didn't make it. I feel no obligation to defend a scenario I haven't proposed. I know you are familiar with the concept of a straw man.

It is far easier to argue what someone wants you to have said instead of your actual words. This trend is becoming rampant. It really is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty and laziness.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.27  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.25    4 days ago
This is the second time you have tried to argue against this point even though I didn't make it. I feel no obligation to defend a scenario I haven't proposed. I know you are familiar with the concept of a straw man.

Do you have any idea how dangerous it would be for a CIS boy to take estrogen just to compete against women instead of men? they would be sterile for their entire life and probably have severe mental health problems. This would be insane.

 The Dr would lose his medical license for this stunt.

How do you think up such insane ideas?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.28  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.27    4 days ago
they would be sterile for their entire life

From what I am reading, sterility is a risk, not a certainty.  

Bruce Jenner fathered two children with Kris despite the fact that he had been on HRT for 4 1/2 years.

I am also reading that there could be other side effects such as loss of bone density and brain development.  There are too few children using HRT and therefore too few studies even possible to have any kind of comprehensive overview of the benefits and adversities of HRT either short or long term.

We do know that children's brains don't fully mature until they reach their mid 20s.  I am apprehensive about the ethics and morality on experimenting with children with HRT with such limited data.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/may/08/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-transitioning-kardashians-reality-tv-star

The most startling revelation of the book is that when they met, Jenner had been on hormone replacement therapy for four and a half years and had a bust size of 36B. Before meeting Kris, she had been determined to transition before turning 40 and the main controversy over the book has been Kris’s suggestion – made on her TV show – that Jenner married her on false pretences. Jenner says this isn’t so and that she told Kris from the outset she had gender issues. “Did I downplay it some? Of course I did. Because I was coming up off six years of hell, and of course I wanted to get back into the game. I’m sure I downplayed it, because I didn’t think 25 years later I would transition.”

Kris knew you had been taking hormones?

“Yeah.”
 
 
 
epistte
9.1.29  epistte  replied to  mocowgirl @9.1.28    4 days ago
Bruce Jenner fathered two children with Kris despite the fact that he had been on HRT for 4 1/2 years. I am also reading that there could be other side effects such as loss of bone density and brain development.  There are too few children using HRT and therefore too few studies even possible to have any kind of comprehensive overview of the benefits and adversities of HRT either short or long term.

She must have been taking a low dose of estrogen. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.30  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.27    4 days ago
they would be sterile for their entire life and probably have severe mental health problems.

Men have been killing themselves for generations by taking testosterone to improve performance, so I am not impressed that fatal side effects would necessarily prevent some other males from taking estrogen to achieve a very similar goal. Additionally, thousands of olympic level female athletes doped with testosterone and other drugs for decades, suffering severe physical and mental damage.

How do you think up such insane ideas?

I didn't think it up. It's called "history."

 
 
 
Sparty On
9.1.31  Sparty On  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.30    4 days ago

The East German "womens" (wink-wink) swim team comes to mind for some reason .....

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.32  Tacos!  replied to  Sparty On @9.1.31    4 days ago

How soon they forget, I guess.

East Germany’s forgotten Olympic doping victims tell of illness, infertility and changing sex

The stars of yesterday suffered severe depression, heart conditions, degenerative bone disease and infertility. Some even changed sex because of the drugs. Many spiralled into drink and drug addictions, unable to find work.

Part of that bears repeating:

Some even changed sex because of the drugs.

This girl was pumped so full of testosterone, she went on to become a man:

Announcer: "Where on Earth do they find them, year after year?" Where, indeed.

 
 
 
MonsterMash
9.1.33  MonsterMash  replied to  epistte @9.1.29    4 days ago
She must have been taking a low dose of estrogen. 

HE must have been taking a low dose of estrogen.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.34  Texan1211  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.33    4 days ago
HE must have been taking a low dose of estrogen.

He, she...……..depending on how someone "identifies" that day.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.35  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.34    4 days ago
He, she...……..depending on how someone "identifies" that day.

If their gender identity varies by the day then they are not transgendered but are instead gender fluidor genderqueer.

The term first appeared as gender-fluid in the 1980s, coming into use alongside somewhat adjacent terms: transgender evidenced in the 1970s, and genderqueer in the 1990s.

The term gender-fluid spread with the understanding that gender was not binary (only and always male or female) and not necessarily tied to physical sex characteristics. Philosopher Judith Butler helped advance this thinking and is often credited with popularizing the idea in 1980-90s that gender is socially constructed. Writers like Sandy Stone were also influential. In 1987, she penned The Empire Strikes Back: A Posttranssexual Manifesto, an essay discussing trans identity and the need for an assertion of such identities in a cisgender-centric world.

The mid-1990s into the early 2000s was when trans identities, like gender-fluid identities, were finding their footing. Online communities, because of their private yet communal nature, were safe places for LGBTQ people and are where many first encountered the word gender-fluid.

The late 2000s and the 2010s were when the term truly began to be noticed, venturing somewhat out of online forums, especially in academic literature. This was also the time when millennials, of whom 12% identify as non-cisgender, were beginning to come of age. By 2011, gender-fluid had 37,000 hits on Google. In 2018, this increased to a staggering 2.3 million.
 
 
 
epistte
9.1.36  epistte  replied to  MonsterMash @9.1.33    4 days ago
HE must have been taking a low dose of estrogen.

You may not like Caitlyn, and many people in the LGBT or supportive community do not, but please have the respect to use the proper gendered pronoun when you refer to her, unless others can refer to use as Ms'Mash.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.37  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.30    4 days ago
Men have been killing themselves for generations by taking testosterone to improve performance, so I am not impressed that fatal side effects would necessarily prevent some other males from taking estrogen to achieve a very similar goal. Additionally, thousands of olympic level female athletes doped with testosterone and other drugs for decades, suffering severe physical and mental damage.

Why would they take estrogen when it would severely degrade their performance, especially if they are not transgendered?

Birth control pills have given women control over our reproductive lives but even they have emotional and physical side effects that prohibit many from taking them. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.38  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.36    4 days ago

To some, born a male or a female, always a male or female. Elective surgeries notwithstanding.

The chromosomes didn't change just because someone chooses to change from male to female or vice-versa.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.39  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.38    4 days ago
To some, born a male or a female, always a male or female. Elective surgeries notwithstanding.

It is not an elective surgery to the medical community. If trained people do not get the surgery to correct the gender dysphoria their risk of suicide increases greatly. Where did you get your medical/psych training?

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender

The chromosomes didn't change just because someone chooses to change from male to female or vice-versa.

A person's chromosomes and DNA determine their biological gender but they do not always create the psychological gender identity to be congruent to their biological gender. It would be great for their quality of life if they didn't have to take the correct gender hormones because they would be produced by their body and that their reproductive organs were 100% functional rather thanjust being aesthetic, but it is still a great benefit to them when their appearance matches their gender identity as much as currently medically possible. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.40  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.39    4 days ago

Science says whether one is born male or female. If a person doesn't believe they were assigned the right sex at birth, then that is a psychological condition. Why would they ignore the science and attempt to change their sex instead of changing their mind which is telling them the science got it wrong?

In any case, this is far away from participating in sports as the sex you were born.

Unless it is co-ed sport, males should compete against males and females against females.

 
 
 
TᵢG
9.1.41  TᵢG  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.40    4 days ago
... instead of changing their mind ...

Ever try to 'change your mind' about being male?   Do you really think it is possible to choose to desire being female?

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.42  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.40    4 days ago
Science says whether one is born male or female. If a person doesn't believe they were assigned the right sex at birth, then that is a psychological condition. Why would they ignore the science and attempt to change their sex instead of changing their mind which is telling them the science got it wrong?

Their body is born male or female, except in the case of the intersexxed. Medical science assumes at birth that their gender identity is in alignment with their biological gender, but in the case of 1%, who are transgendered, they would be correct.  Some Drs have tried to treat the transgendered with medication for delusions, but it doesn't work and they only get depressed.

Why can't you understand that our sexuality and gender is far more complex than you want to believe? Are you threated because trans' people exist outside of the usual binary gender construct?

Our gender identity is fixed before birth and can not be changed by any means so medical science instead changes the body to match their psycholoigiaLgender identity. John Money tried to use both hormones and psychotherapy to change the gender identity of a person because he believed that it was the result of nurture instead of nature.  That person committed suicide because of it and that idea has been banned, except for religious dipsticks who still cling to reparative therapy despite the fact that even their own say that it is abusive and ineffective. 

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.43  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.40    4 days ago
Why would they ignore the science and attempt to change their sex instead of changing their mind which is telling them the science got it wrong?

why would you conflate biological sex with gender while knowing they aren't the same thing ?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.44  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.42    4 days ago
?Their body is born male or female,

yes, I made that point quite clearly--or at least I thought I did.

Why can't you understand that our sexuality and gender is far more complex than you want to believe? Are you threated because trans' people exist outside of the usual binary gender construct?

FFS--stop that bullshit right there. it is a lazy tactic to tell others what THEY are afraid of based on nothing more than YOUR opinion, or that they "just don't understand" it as well as the "brilliant" you do.

,Our gender identity is fixed before birth and can not be changed by any means

,At what specific point is gender identity fixed?  1 month, 2, 3, 4 ,5, 6, 7, 8, 9?

And once again, WTF does any of this have to do with sports?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.45  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.43    4 days ago
why would you conflate biological sex with gender while knowing they aren't the same thing ?

I didn't, You simply didn't understand what I wrote.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.46  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.44    4 days ago
At what specific point is gender identity fixed?  1 month, 2, 3, 4 ,5, 6, 7, 8, 9?

Birth.  If our brain and sex organs are in sync, then we are subjected to society telling us what to do with them.

If our brain and sex organs are out of sync with the majority, then we are subjected to all kinds of shit - little to none of it humane.

And once again, WTF does any of this have to do with sports?

Some people believe that people born with a male body and female mind should be allowed to play sports as a female.   I find this argument to be completely ludicrous and unacceptable on every level with or without hormone replacement therapy and surgery at this time.  

In the future, when it can be proved that HRT absolutely makes it fair to allow people born with a male body to compete as a woman, then the stance should re-evaluated.  

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.1.47  Phoenyx13  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.45    4 days ago
I didn't, You simply didn't understand what I wrote.

yeap, that must be it, thanks ! jrSmiley_13_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.48  Texan1211  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9.1.47    4 days ago
yeap, that must be it, thanks !

You are quite welcome.

Anytime!

jrSmiley_7_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.49  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @9.1.46    4 days ago
Birth. If our brain and sex organs are in sync, then we are subjected to society telling us what to do with them.

Birth. Epistte disagrees with you. The claim is that it is before birth.

Some people believe that people born with a male body and female mind should be allowed to play sports as a female. I find this argument to be completely ludicrous and unacceptable on every level with or without hormone replacement therapy and surgery at this time.

As do I. Males should compete against males and females against females, IMO.

In the future, when it can be proved that HRT absolutely makes it fair to allow people born with a male body to compete as a woman, then the stance should re-evaluated.

In the future, I would be more than willing to reevaluate my position when more research is completed.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.50  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.49    4 days ago
Birth. Epistte disagrees with you. The claim is that it is before birth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.51  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.50    4 days ago

Abstract. Did you miss that part of your source?

Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation.
Savic I1, Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF.
Author information

Abstract
It is believed that during the intrauterine period the fetal brain develops in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. According to this concept, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation should be programmed into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in transsexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no proof that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation. Data on genetic and hormone independent influence on gender identity are presently divergent and do not provide convincing information about the underlying etiology. To what extent fetal programming may determine sexual orientation is also a matter of discussion. A number of studies show patterns of sex atypical cerebral dimorphism in homosexual subjects. Although the crucial question, namely how such complex functions as sexual orientation and identity are processed in the brain remains unanswered, emerging data point at a key role of specific neuronal circuits involving the hypothalamus.

The bold is my doing, just to point out that this isn't settled science as you would have me believe.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.52  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.50    3 days ago

Do you have any sources that present facts?

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.53  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.52    3 days ago
Do you have any sources that present facts?

Do you have anything that supports your idea that transgendered people are confused and are making a choice to be male or female?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/?redirect=1

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.54  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.53    3 days ago

A blog? 

You claimed that gender identity is defined before birth, and when pressed, supplied a source that was nothing more than abstract thoughts.

This newest source from you is no better off at proving what you claimed.

And if a person can look down and see male part on themselves and somehow think they are a woman, I would consider THAT sufficient evidence that they are, indeed, confused.

All of this is just great, but not a thing to do with allowing men to compete against women or women to compete against men.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.55  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.54    3 days ago
And if a person can look down and see male part on themselves and somehow think they are a woman, I would consider THAT sufficient evidence that they are, indeed, confused.

Why did you ignore this idea?

A lingering question asked by neuroscientists has to do with what, if anything, makes the male and female brains distinctive, whether in mice or (wo)men. There is still no concise answer. The best evidence from the most recent research suggests that both males and females share the same neural circuitry, but use it differently.

You are creating a strawman. They feel like a woman and have the drives of a woman but visually they see a man in the mirror. Or they feel like a man but they see a woman in the mirror.  That mind-body incongruence is what gender dysphoria is. 

You have no knowledge of this situation and are basing your ideas on ignorance and your emotions. The idea that they are confused was a common idea early in the treatment of gender identity but when they tried to reinforce their biological gender identity with psychotherapy and even increasing hormone levels it only caused suicides and addictions.

All of this is just great, but not a thing to do with allowing men to compete against women or women to compete against men.

Once again this is a gross simplification of the situation because you understand nothing else.  You also refuse to learn.

 

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.56  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.55    3 days ago
Why did you ignore this idea?

I didn't ignore it. it isn't settled science by any stretch of your imagination. You asked and I answered.

You are creating a strawman. They feel like a woman and have the drives of a woman but visually they see a man in the mirror. Or they feel like a man but they see a woman in the mirror.

To me, born a male, you ARE a male. Born female, you ARE female. I feel sorry for people who suffer from mental problems, but that simply doesn't change what they actually are.

Once again this is a gross simplification of the situation because you understand nothing else. You also refuse to learn.

Just yet another example of you making it personal. Phfft.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.57  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.54    3 days ago
And if a person can look down and see male part on themselves and somehow think they are a woman, I would consider THAT sufficient evidence that they are, indeed, confused.

I have done some research on this.

The fetal brain development is the problem.  epistte is correct that studies show it is prior to birth because of either maternal hormone imbalances or the inability of the developing fetus to fully utilize the hormones.

Brain scans show that the child/teen/adult transgender male has a brain similar to a female - not identical to a female.  And vice versa for the transgender female.  So the male transgender does not think or act completely female, not does his/her body develop as a female unless HRT is used.  Even with HRT, the male does not completely become a female unless his/her male organs are removed....and even then he/she is not FEMALE, but as close as human science can get to date.

Girls/women should not be expected to accept transgender males as "one of the girls" until we know what we are dealing with.  

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/11/karen-white-how-manipulative-and-controlling-offender-attacked-again-transgender-prison

Transgender politics – like any politics – can be divisive. Yet in the case of Karen White, who is legally still a man but was put in a female-only prison, both sides of the transgender rights debate are united in the belief mistakes were made.

White entered the UK prison system as transgender. However, despite dressing as a woman, the 52-year-old had not undergone any surgery and was still legally a male. She was also a convicted paedophile and on remand for grievous bodily harm, burglary, multiple rapes and other sexual offences against women.

In September last year she was transferred to New Hall prison in West Yorkshire. During a three-month period at the female prison she sexually assaulted two other inmates.

The decision to move White to a women’s prison was made public after she admitted in court to the sexual assault and to multiple rapes committed before she was sent to prison.

Those who met White were shocked that she was moved to a female prison, describing the convicted sex offender as “manipulative and controlling”, and questioned her commitment to her transition. The Ministry of Justice has since apologised for the placement.

For now, White is being held at HM Prison Leeds, a category B men’s prison, and is undergoing gender reassignment surgery.
 
 
 
epistte
9.1.58  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.56    3 days ago
To me, born a male, you ARE a male. Born female, you ARE female. I feel sorry for people who suffer from mental problems, but that simply doesn't change what they actually are.

You are focusing only on biology and not on their psychologial gender identity which determines who they are and how they act.  Do you have a unique personality or are all males identical because of your XY chromosomes?  That same unique brain psychology is what makes some guys gay, some bi and some heterosexual, unless you also do not believe that people are bi and gay? .

 The reason why you want to focus on that and ignore everything else because if you admitted that our brain is what makes us unique then you would be forced to change your stance on transgendered people as a whole instead of just claiming that they are confused.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.59  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.58    3 days ago

If their brain is telling someone with a penis that they are a woman, then there is a problem in that brain.

Even you have admitted that it is a psychological problem.

When again is gender identity fixed?

 
 
 
lib50
9.1.60  lib50  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.59    3 days ago

God made everyone.  Accept them.  Or are you saying he f'd it up?

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.61  Texan1211  replied to  lib50 @9.1.60    3 days ago
God made everyone. Accept them. Or are you saying he f'd it up?

Yes, He did. yes, I accept that they are free to live their own lives. if you didn't see the words in my post, it should be obvious I didn't say that.

Just because I accept them doesn't mean I condone them competing in sports as anything other than what they were born as.

 
 
 
Don Overton
9.1.62  Don Overton  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1    3 days ago

Most high schoolers know what sex they are. Some just pretend otherwise.

That comment is a tortal lie

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.63  Texan1211  replied to  Don Overton @9.1.62    3 days ago
Most high schoolers know what sex they are. Some just pretend otherwise.
That comment is a tortal lie

So you must be of the opinion that the majority of high schoolers do NOT know what sex they are. 

Good to know.

Nice talking with you!

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.64  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.61    3 days ago
Yes, He did. yes, I accept that they are free to live their own lives. if you didn't see the words in my post, it should be obvious I didn't say that. Just because I accept them doesn't mean I condone them competing in sports as anything other than what they were born as.

They were obviously born trans and they are of their gender identity, despite your attempt to ignore their psychological gender identity and only focus on the external sex organs. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.65  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.64    3 days ago
They were obviously born trans and they are of their gender identity, despite your attempt to ignore their psychological gender identity and only focus on the external sex organs.

Their physical organs are somewhat tied to their overall physiology, no?

That physiology is way more important in most sports than the mind.

So males compete against males and women against women.

I have no concern over anywhere else in any of their lives--just the playing field.

That is what this about.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.66  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.1.65    3 days ago
Their physical organs are somewhat tied to their overall physiology, no?

That physiology is way more important in most sports than the mind.

So males compete against males and women against women.

I have no concern over anywhere else in any of their lives--just the playing field.

That is what this about.

For the last time, trans' females are not men and transmen are not female.  You also want trans males to stop their transition and their testosterone injections so they are biologically female again, despite the fact that they are male and that would be detrimental to their mental and physical health. 

The mind controls the body so it is physiologically superior. You cannot ignore this basic fact, no matter how hard you try to do so.

If the trans athletes are taking the proper dose of hormones/blockers that align with their gender identity then they should be on parity with the CIS athletes that they are competing for against.

 You have a problem with transgendered people and this is just another instance where you do not see them as being of their gender identity because you are visually motivated.  You only see the gender of their body and not their psychological gender identity.

 
 
 
Texan1211
9.1.67  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.1.66    3 days ago
For the last time,

Promise? Cross your heart and hope to die?

You have a problem with transgendered people and this is just another instance where you do not see them as being of their gender identity because you are visually motivated. You only see the gender of their body and not their psychological gender identity.

Sports can be segregated by gender, like always. My opinion is as valid as yours.

Why must everything get personal with you?

You don't know me, and I resent the fact you are attempting to tell me how I feel about something. Back off.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.68  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.66    3 days ago
If the trans athletes are taking the proper dose of hormones/blockers that align with their gender identity then they should be on parity with the CIS athletes that they are competing for against.

"Should be" is not good enough on any level.  For one thing, brain scans have not shown that trans people's brains are 100% aligned with the CIS folks.  There are similarities. 

It has to be irrefutably "ARE on parity" before trans athletes are allowed to participate in girls'/women's athletics.  

I googled for more info about HRT and found an interesting article than answered some of my questions and raised more concerns.  HRT has many side effects and should be monitored closely. 

Until we actually have more info and a reliable way to ascertain that the transgender male to female has transitioned permanently to a mental and physical state that is part with CIS females, there is no way that they should ever be allowed to play girls'/women's athletics.

Also, we have no real idea of the longterm health risks of HRT so I am surprised that doctors are being allowed to use teenagers as guinea pigs - no matter how willing they are.  

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

There are four areas where you can expect changes to occur as your hormone therapy progresses.

The first is physical.

The first changes you will probably notice are that your skin will become a bit drier and thinner. Your pores will become smaller and there will be less oil production. You may become more prone to bruising or cuts and in the first few weeks you’ll notice that the odors of your sweat and urine will change. It’s also likely that you’ll sweat less.

When you touch things, they may “feel different” and you may perceive pain and temperature differently.

Probably within a few weeks you’ll begin to develop small “buds” beneath your nipples. These may be slightly painful, especially to the touch and the right and left side may be uneven. This is the normal course of breast development and whatever pain you experience will diminish significantly over the course of several months.

It’s important to note that breast development varies from person to person. Not everyone develops at the same rate and most transgender women, even after many years of hormone therapy, can only expect to develop an “A” cup or perhaps a small “B” cup. Like all other women, the breasts of transgender women vary in size and shape and will sometimes be uneven with each other.

Your body will begin to redistribute your weight. Fat will begin to collect around your hips and thighs and the muscles in your arms and legs will become less defined and have a smoother appearance as the fat just below your skin becomes a bit thicker. Hormones will not have a significant effect on the fat in your abdomen, also known as your “gut”. You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease significantly. To maintain muscle tone, and for your general health, I recommend you exercise. Overall, you may gain or lose weight once you begin hormone therapy, depending on your diet, lifestyle, genetics and muscle mass.

Your eyes and face will begin to develop a more female appearance as the fat under the skin increases and shifts. Because it can take two or more years for these changes to fully develop, you should wait at least that long before considering any drastic facial feminization procedures. What won’t change is your bone structure, including your hips, arms, hands, legs and feet.

Let’s talk about hair. The hair on your body, including your chest, back and arms, will decrease in thickness and grow at a slower rate. But it may not go away all together. For that you might want to consider electrolysis or laser treatment. Remember that all women have some body hair and that this is normal. Your facial hair may thin a bit and grow slower but it will rarely go away entirely without electrolysis or laser treatments. If you have had any scalp balding, hormone therapy should slow or stop it, but how much if it will grow back is unknown.

Some people may notice minor changes in shoe size or height. This is not due to bony changes, but due to changes in the ligaments and muscles of your feet.

The second impact of hormone therapy is on your emotional state

Your overall emotional state may or may not change, this varies from person to person. Puberty is a roller coaster of emotions, and the second puberty that you will experience during your transition is no exception. You may find that you have access to a wider range of emotions or feelings, or have different interests, tastes or pastimes, or behave differently in relationships with other people. While psychotherapy is not for everyone, most people would benefit from a course of supportive psychotherapy while in transition to help you explore these new thoughts and feelings, and get to know your new body and self.

The third impact of hormone therapy is sexual in nature.

Soon after beginning hormone treatment, you will notice a decrease in the number of erections you have. And when you do have one, you may lose the ability to penetrate, because it won’t be as firm or last as long. You will, however, still have erotic sensations and be able to orgasm. .

You may find that you get erotic pleasure from different sex acts and different parts of your body. Your orgasms will feel like more of a “whole body” experience and last longer, but with less peak intensity. You may experience ejaculation of a small amount of clear or white fluid, or perhaps no fluid. Don’t be afraid to explore and experiment with your new sexuality through masturbation and with sex toys such dildos and vibrators. Involve your sexual partner if you have one.

Though your testicles will shrink to less than half their original size, most experts agree that the amount of scrotal skin available for future genital surgery won’t be affected.

The fourth impact of hormone therapy is on the reproductive system.

Within a few months of beginning hormone therapy, you must assume that you will become permanently and irreversibly sterile. Some people may maintain a sperm count on hormone therapy, or have their sperm count return after stopping hormone therapy, but you must assume that won’t be the case for you.

If there’s any chance you may want to parent a child from your own sperm, you should speak to the doctor about preserving your sperm in a sperm bank. This process generally takes 2-4 weeks and costs roughly $2000-$3000. Your sperm should be stored before beginning hormone therapy. All too often, transgender women decide later in life that they would like to parent a child using their own sperm but are unable to do so because they did not take the steps to preserve sperm before beginning hormone treatment.

Also, if you are on hormones but remaining sexually active with a woman who is able to become pregnant, you should always continue to use a birth control method to prevent unwanted pregnancy.

Many of the effects of hormone therapy are reversible, if you stop taking them. The degree to which they can be reversed depends on how long you have been taking them. Breast growth and possibly sterility are not reversible. If you have an orchiectomy, which is removal of the testicles, or genital reassignment surgery, you will be able to take a lower dose of hormones but should remain on hormones until you’re at least 50 to prevent weakening of the bones, otherwise known as osteoporosis.

Now let’s talk about treatments. Cross gender hormone therapy for transwomen may include three different kinds of medicines: Estrogen, testosterone blockers and progesterones.

Estrogen is the hormone responsible for most female characteristics. It causes the physical changes of transition and many of the emotional changes. Estrogen may be given as a pill, by injection, or by a number of skin preparations such as a cream, gel, spray or a patch.

Pills are convenient, cheap and effective, but are less safe if you smoke or are older than 35. Patches can be very effective and safe, but they need to be worn at all times. They could also irritate your skin. .

Many transwomen are interested in estrogen through injection. Estrogen injections tend to cause very high and fluctuating estrogen levels which can cause mood swings, weight gain, hot flashes, anxiety or migraines. Additionally, little is known about the effects of these high levels over the long term. If injections are used, it should be at a low dose and with an understanding that there may be uncomfortable side effects, and that switching off of injections to other forms may cause mood swings or hot flashes.

Contrary to what many may have heard, you can achieve the maximum effect of your transition with relatively small doses of estrogen. Taking high doses does not necessarily make changes happen quicker it could, however, endanger your health. And after you’ve had genital surgery or orchiectomy—removal of the testicles—your estrogen dose will be lowered. Without your testicles you need less estrogen to maintain your feminine characteristics and overall health

To monitor your health while on estrogen, your doctor will periodically check your liver functions and cholesterol and screen you for diabetes.

Let’s move on to testosterone blockers.

There are a number of medicines that can block testosterone and they fall into two categories: those that block the action of testosterone in your body and those that prevent the production of it. Most testosterone blockers are very safe but they can have side effects.

The blocker most commonly used, spironolactone, can cause you to urinate excessively and feel dizzy or lightheaded, especially when you first start taking it. It’s important to drink plenty of fluids with this medication. Because spironolactone can be dangerous for people with kidney problems and because it interacts with some blood pressure medicines, it’s essential you share with your doctor your full medical history and the names of all the medications you’re taking. A rare but potentially dangerous side effect of spironolactone is a large increase in the production of potassium, which could cause your heart to stop, so while on this medication you should have your potassium levels checked periodically.

Finasteride and dutasteride are medicines which prevent the production of dihydro-testosterone, a specific form of testosterone that has action on the skin, hair, and prostate. These medicines are weaker testosterone blockers than spironolactone but have few side effects, and are useful for those who can not tolerate spironolactone. It is unclear if there is any added benefit to taking one of these medicines at the same time as spironolactone.

Lastly, let’s talk about Progesterone.

Progesterone is a source of constant debate among both transwomen and providers. Though it’s commonly believed to have a number of benefits, including: improved mood and libido, enhanced energy, and better breast development and body fat redistribution, there is very little scientific evidence to support these claims. Nevertheless, some transwomen say they experience some or all of these benefits from progesterone. Progesterone may be taken as a pill or applied as a cream.

So what are the risks? The risk of things like blood clots, strokes and cancer are minimal, but may be elevated. There is not much scientific evidence regarding the risks of cancer in transgender women. We believe your risk of prostate cancer will go down but we can’t be sure, so you should follow standard testing guidelines for someone your age. Your risk of breast cancer may increase slightly, but you’ll still be at less of a risk than a non-transgender female. When you’ve been on hormones for at least 2-3 years, we recommend you begin breast cancer screenings depending on your age and risk factors after discussion with your doctor. Since there is not a lot of research on the use of estrogen in transwomen, there may be other risks that we won’t know about, especially for those who have used estrogen for many years

In conclusion, please be patient and remember that all of the changes associated with the puberty you’re about to experience can take years to develop.

Thank you for reading and for taking care of your health.
 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.69  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.66    3 days ago
You only see the gender of their body and not their psychological gender identity.

I don't know that is the case here.  I believe that our concerns are valid.

Regardless of their psychological gender ID, It is the gender of their body that will used to participate in athletics.  Where is the PROOF that HRT will destroy male muscle to the point of making it compatible to a CIS female?  To date, I have found exactly none.

From what I have read so far,  just because their psychological gender ID aligns more closely with female, it does not align completely.   I really don't want to deal with male aggression brought on by HRT.  I really feel that we need to know more before we throw CIS females under bus by trying to bend over backwards to be "fair" to transgenders.  Shouldn't the goal be to be "fair" as possible to everyone? 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.70  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @9.1.68    3 days ago
that is part with CIS females

Correction......that is on par with CIS females

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.71  epistte  replied to  mocowgirl @9.1.69    3 days ago
Regardless of their psychological gender ID, It is the gender of their body that will used to participate in athletics.  Where is the PROOF that HRT will destroy male muscle to the point of making it compatible to a CIS female?  To date, I have found exactly none.

The muscle tissue atrophies with the absence of testosterone. The estrogen also causes them to gain weight.

From what I have read so far,  just because their psychological gender ID aligns more closely with female, it does not align completely.   I really don't want to deal with male aggression brought on by HRT.  I really feel that we need to know more before we throw CIS females under bus by trying to bend over backwards to be "fair" to transgenders.  Shouldn't the goal be to be "fair" as possible to everyone? 

Why would a trans female experience male aggression brought on by estrogen therapy? It seems that would be the expected action of a trans boy taking testosterone. Trans females get mood swings and other hormonal joys that we deal with every month.

 I do not see how we CIS females are being thrown under any bus because trans people are permitted to take part in their identified gender role as long as the trans athletes has been on effective HRT with their levels at standard female levels for more than 6 months.  Having surgery and the removal of the testes would be optimum but surgeons are leery of operating on teens and there is a significant cost for that, unless it could be paid for by Medicaid if the student's family didn't have proper coverage.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.72  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.71    3 days ago
Why would a trans female experience male aggression brought on by estrogen therapy?

Hormone therapy can influence behavior and mood in ways that are unpredictable. This is true no matter the drug or the sex of the person receiving it.

because trans people are permitted to take part in their identified gender role

Here's the thing: there are many so-called gender roles, but sports is a sex role. By that I don't mean that procreation is happening in organized sport, but that the sports are segregated based purely on biology. It has nothing whatsoever to do with traditional gender roles. It's not about separating boys and girls because of custom or morality. It's because of performance due to biology. Sports programs for females had to to be created to give them the opportunity to participate. They were physically incapable of competing for spots on sports teams because of lesser female performance. 

One thing every female in a sports program knew (up until recently) was that everyone they were competing against - even if they were an extraordinary physical specimen - was every bit as female as they were. That gave female athletes a sense that the competition was fair. Now that is going away because of a laudable desire to cut someone a break who is struggling with dysphoria. The problem is that though that compassion is commendable, it may well destroy an opportunity that had previously been set aside for someone in need of it. 

It's worse than a straight trade-off, because not only does a natural-born female lose out, but the other females who want to take part are discouraged. That defeats everything that advocates for female athletes have been fighting for for 50 years.

 
 
 
epistte
9.1.73  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @9.1.72    3 days ago
Hormone therapy can influence behavior and mood in ways that are unpredictable. This is true no matter the drug or the sex of the person receiving it.

When has a trans female on HRT ever become unusually aggressive that was determined to be caused by her hormone therapy?  You are arguing for a solution when there is no problem needing be addressed.

Here's the thing: there are many so-called gender roles, but sports is a sex role. By that I don't mean that procreation is happening in organized sport, but that the sports are segregated based purely on biology. It has nothing whatsoever to do with traditional gender roles. It's not about separating boys and girls because of custom or morality. It's because of performance due to biology. Sports programs for females had to to be created to give them the opportunity to participate. They were physically incapable of competing for spots on sports teams because of lesser female performance.  One thing every female in a sports program knew (up until recently) was that everyone they were competing against - even if they were an extraordinary physical specimen - was every bit as female as they were. That gave female athletes a sense that the competition was fair. Now that is going away because of a laudable desire to cut someone a break who is struggling with dysphoria. The problem is that though that compassion is commendable, it may well destroy an opportunity that had previously been set aside for someone in need of it. 

Your idea would also ban intersexxed people from sporting competition. 

 From my perscpetive it seems that conservatives have found a new minority that they can attack and who cannot fight back because of the rare situation of a trans athlete is better than their CIS competitor. Do you need to feel superior to someone so you can be happy?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.74  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.73    2 days ago
From my perscpetive it seems that conservatives have found a new minority that they can attack and who cannot fight back because of the rare situation of a trans athlete is better than their CIS competitor. Do you need to feel superior to someone so you can be happy?

I am far from a conservative and I have repeatedly expressed my concerns about this situation for ALL involved. We need far more research and understanding than studies on a few dozen or hundred people transitioning.  When is science ever satisfied with such a limited amount of subjects? 

OTOH, it is you who are saying that males taking HRT are 100% the same as CIS females with absolutely zero proof to back up that assertion - possibly because there are not comprehensive studies on large enough control groups. 

Usually you are very analytic and open to discussing possibilities so I am not understanding your stance on this issue.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.75  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.71    2 days ago
The muscle tissue atrophies with the absence of testosterone. The estrogen also causes them to gain weight.

Still zero proof that it lessens their muscle strength to make it the exact same of CIS females.  

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.76  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.71    2 days ago
Why would a trans female experience male aggression brought on by estrogen therapy?

Uh, consider the fact that taking estrogen does not completely eliminate the testosterone as long as they are physically intact.

Male aggression / estrogen induced mood swings?  We have no idea what we are dealing with here because we don't have enough subjects and years of study to comfortably know what kind of emotional Hell we are subjecting these people to.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
9.1.77  mocowgirl  replied to  epistte @9.1.71    2 days ago
I do not see how we CIS females are being thrown under any bus because trans people are permitted to take part in their identified gender role as long as the trans athletes has been on effective HRT with their levels at standard female levels for more than 6 months. 

I completely disagree and will continue to disagree until science proves otherwise.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.78  Tacos!  replied to  epistte @9.1.73    2 days ago
When has a trans female on HRT ever become unusually aggressive that was determined to be caused by her hormone therapy?

I have seen people's moods - and even their apparent perceptions of reality - swing wildly under hormone therapy. Women and men. It happens.

Your idea would also ban intersexxed people from sporting competition. 

Not at all, but it might mean they would have to compete in male sports, not female. The population is small enough that I think - for now - these cases should be evaluated on an individual basis.

From my perscpetive it seems that conservatives have found a new minority that they can attack

Politics has nothing to do with it - at least not for me. This is true for many others. There have been several so-called liberals who have publicly expressed the same views I have. The article seeded here mentions a few, but there have been others all over the world. Unless, it's your position that anyone advocating for females athletes is being politically conservative? That would be a new one on me.

Do you need to feel superior to someone so you can be happy?

I don't know. Do you need to take cheap shots at people to make an argument?

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.2  Tacos!  replied to  Phoenyx13 @9    6 days ago
do people actually believe that cisgendered boys are going to pretend to be transgendered girls just to compete in girl's sports and try to win ? so they can - what - brag they won in girl's sports ?

People do some pretty insane shit, especially when it comes to school or school sports. Just look at all the people spending hundreds of thousands - even millions - of dollars to fake getting their kid onto a sports team so they can go to the college they want to go to. Who would have predicted that lunacy?

Look at how many athletes use performance enhancing drugs and/or steroids to compete - in spite of knowing full well the dire legal and medical consequences. Look at how many do it even though they are already at the top of their game (see: Barry Bonds)

It doesn't even need to start out as something nefarious. Maybe somebody genuinely wants to make the change, but decides along the way that maybe they don't need to rush to get the testosterone out of their system. Maybe they could make the change as slow or as minimally as possible and just enjoy the slight benefit that goes along with it. If it's not technically cheating, it's ok, right?

 
 
 
Phoenyx13
9.2.1  Phoenyx13  replied to  Tacos! @9.2    5 days ago
People do some pretty insane shit, especially when it comes to school or school sports. Just look at all the people spending hundreds of thousands - even millions - of dollars to fake getting their kid onto a sports team so they can go to the college they want to go to. Who would have predicted that lunacy?

um.. that's been happening for quite a few years, decades even - have you not been paying attention ? i haven't seen any biological male pretend to be a trans female just to win at female sports to go to their choice of college to compete on female's sports teams -- maybe you could show a couple instances ?

Look at how many athletes use performance enhancing drugs and/or steroids to compete - in spite of knowing full well the dire legal and medical consequences. Look at how many do it even though they are already at the top of their game (see: Barry Bonds)

oddly.. those performance enhancing drugs, for guys, aren't changing their biological sex nor enabling them to compete in women's sports - it's just so they can be better at competing at guys sports (same applies to women)

It doesn't even need to start out as something nefarious. Maybe somebody genuinely wants to make the change, but decides along the way that maybe they don't need to rush to get the testosterone out of their system. Maybe they could make the change as slow or as minimally as possible and just enjoy the slight benefit that goes along with it. If it's not technically cheating, it's ok, right?

you do have a point with that and i will agree that rules need to be set in place for instances like that.

 
 
 
TᵢG
10  TᵢG    one week ago

I accept the fact that some biological males identify as female.   Male body, female mental identity.    I get that.   And it makes great sense to accept people for who they are and not force them to conform to societal norms (as long as they do no harm).   So, in this case, individuals who identify as the gender opposite their physiology should be allowed to do so.

So now move to physical activities like sports.   We segregate male and female sports for a very good reason.   That reason is because the male body is generally more suited to athletic endeavors.   No matter how talented a female tennis player, she typically will be at a great disadvantage going up against an opponent with male muscularity.   Moving to sports like football or hockey illustrate the problem in rather glaring clarity.

For the most part this is not going to be a problem because there are so few trans.   But the ethical and logical factors are still worthy of discussion.

A counterargument is that people are naturally different.   So some girls are naturally more muscular than others and thus have a similar advantage.   And that is true.   It is also true that some people are simply not athletic.   The natural advantage argument is sound.   Recognizing that most differences must simply be accepted, we need to draw lines of demarcation at what are considered the critical differences.  Historically, competitive athletics have done just that.   Depending upon the sport we draw the line based on age, weight, height, gender and/or skill level (e.g. beginners vs intermediate vs advanced).   These are the measurable factors that matter most in sports.

Now we have legislation that in effect argues that the well established gender demarcation is no longer valid if an athlete believes himself to be female.   But the athletic / competitive reasoning for gender demarcation was not found to be invalid, the reasoning for the demarcation remains sound, right?

Seems we have a substantial logical contradiction.

 
 
 
Texan1211
10.1  Texan1211  replied to  TᵢG @10    one week ago

That sounds way too reasonable for this forum.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
10.2  Greg Jones  replied to  TᵢG @10    6 days ago

Well, I don't think the Democrats are going to find that this will be a winning issue for them.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3  Colour Me Free  replied to  TᵢG @10    6 days ago
 But the athletic / competitive reasoning for gender demarcation was not found to be invalid, the reasoning for the demarcation remains sound, right?

Hmmm interesting and thought provoking .. I have to say no, the reasoning is no longer sound, another major boundary has been moved - thus opening the door for further challenge to the standard guidelines.

.. females have already crossed over to playing football with males, as well as competing in wrestling programs..  a female can even be a Boy Scout .. when it comes to gender equality .. transgender rights .. the battle 'kind of really' has just begun.  What team will the gender neutral play for?  My friends youngest daughter identifies as Agender..

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.3.1  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3    6 days ago

My nephew is a giraffe.

 
 
 
Colour Me Free
10.3.2  Colour Me Free  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @10.3.1    6 days ago

Must have been difficult for him to come out of the closet...

 
 
 
r.t..b...
10.3.3  r.t..b...  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @10.3.1    6 days ago
My nephew is a giraffe.

Get the boy a basketball.

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.3.4  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.2    6 days ago

This movie made him cry.

384

 
 
 
1stwarrior
10.3.5  seeder  1stwarrior  replied to  Colour Me Free @10.3.2    4 days ago

Yeah - the door was too low.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
10.4  mocowgirl  replied to  TᵢG @10    6 days ago
We segregate male and female sports for a very good reason

And should continue to do so, indefinitely and probably forever.  When it comes to transgender, there is still too much to learn and understand before we allow people born with male bodies to compete in female athletics in any sport.  I don't know if there are enough hormones to have ever made it fair to allow Caitlyn Jenner to compete in girls'/women's athletics.  Until we know, then transgenders should not be allowed to compete as females - period.

I have sympathy for the transgender people of all ages.  Life can be confusing enough when the brain and sexual organs are aligned.   

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/may/08/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-transitioning-kardashians-reality-tv-star

As a child, Jenner struggled as much with undiagnosed dyslexia as with gender dysphoria, something for which, in conservative Westchester County, New York, there was “no information, no name”. All she knew was that she was fascinated with her older sister Pam’s clothes and that when she looked in the mirror, she hated what she saw. “Throughout a lifetime, everything goes through your head,” she says. “Am I just a cross-dresser? Is cross-dressing a sexual stimulation to me, so that I’m having sex with myself? Am I gay, is that what it is?” But none of these solutions felt right.

The answer, for Jenner, was to throw herself into athletics. “I was the fastest kid in school and the reason I trained so hard for so many years had a lot to do with who I was. It made me more determined than the next guy to go out there and compete.” Athletic success, and the public acclaim that came with it, would surely “fix” her nameless unease, but it didn’t, not even winning an Olympic gold medal in the decathlon in 1976.
 
 
 
Tacos!
10.5  Tacos!  replied to  TᵢG @10    6 days ago
And it makes great sense to accept people for who they are and not force them to conform to societal norms

Ironically, I think the failure of trans advocates on this point drives some young people into changes they don't need. 

For some people who genuinely look at their body and see themselves trapped in something alien, probably the only way they can ever find peace is through surgery and hormone treatments. One of my oldest friends is one of those people.

But I think for a lot of people, they present as someone who acts and has preferences outside of expected gender norms and the trend today is to decide that person is trans and requires medical intervention. That approach is actually enforcing gender stereotypes. If we were serious about defeating those standards, we would tell young people there are an infinite number of ways to be a male or female and allow them to behave as they are comfortable.

There is nothing wrong, for example, with being a female with short hair, wearing pants, playing sports, driving trucks, or whatever else it is we think guys normally do. And the reverse, of course, is true. Probably many people could live as what they are without having to behave in ways that socially conform to the expectations of their biological sex if the rest of us were just ok with that.

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.5.1  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Tacos! @10.5    6 days ago

I don't personally care if you want to mutilate your junk or add a tail on the donkey just as long as you groom. I'm tired of all these false Big Foot sightings.

 
 
 
TᵢG
10.5.2  TᵢG  replied to  Tacos! @10.5    6 days ago
Probably many people could live as what they are without having to behave in ways that socially conform to the expectations of their biological sex if the rest of us were just ok with that.

I think you are correct.   People in general seem overly concerned about acceptance.   That is part of the reason why group think even exists.    We all have a tendency to try to fit in and be accepted.   It takes work to think for oneself and it takes guts to go against the established norms.

Live and let live would indeed go a long way to reduce radical moves by people to conform.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.5.3  Dulay  replied to  Tacos! @10.5    2 days ago
if the rest of us were just ok with that.

Therein lies the rub. 

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.5.4  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Dulay @10.5.3    2 days ago
Therein lies the rub. 

If you rub it the gender genie gives you three wishes.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.5.5  Dulay  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @10.5.4    2 days ago

Jejune.  

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.5.6  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  Dulay @10.5.5    2 days ago

Blatherskite.

 
 
 
Sparty On
10.5.7  Sparty On  replied to  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉ @10.5.6    2 days ago

Rumpelstiltskin.

 
 
 
1stwarrior
10.6  seeder  1stwarrior  replied to  TᵢG @10    4 days ago

So far, the "legislation" hasn't passed the Senate sniff test yet.

 
 
 
TᵢG
10.6.1  TᵢG  replied to  1stwarrior @10.6    4 days ago

I suspect knowledge that this is very unlikely to pass the Senate was part of the thought process for many.

 
 
 
Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉
10.6.2  Badfish H҉a҉n҉d҉ ҉o҉f҉ ҉D҉o҉o҉m҉  replied to  TᵢG @10.6.1    3 days ago

Good point, moonbat virtue signaling.

 
 
 
Dulay
10.6.3  Dulay  replied to  TᵢG @10.6.1    2 days ago
I suspect knowledge that this is very unlikely to pass the Senate was part of the thought process for many.

Why? Both Houses of Congress have been trying to pass ENDA for over 2 decades, the Equality Act is the next step since it includes housing and the jury system. 

 
 
 
Raven Wing
11  Raven Wing    2 days ago

Frankly, as they already allow females to participate and compete in male sports, such as baseball, football and others, then there should be no qualms about allowing males to do the same in girl's sports if they choose to do so. 

IMHO, there won't be that many males that will want to participate or compete with girls in their sports. However, if there are any, they should be allowed to do so, and if not, then they should not allow girls to so in boy's sports.

JMOO  

 
 
 
Dulay
11.1  Dulay  replied to  Raven Wing @11    2 days ago

As far as I know, the only girls in 'boys' sports are competing in sports were there is only a 'boys' team. 

 
 
 
Raven Wing
11.1.1  Raven Wing  replied to  Dulay @11.1    2 days ago
 
 
 
Dulay
11.1.2  Dulay  replied to  Raven Wing @11.1.1    2 days ago

The only team that I see there that they could have a girls soccer team.

From your link:

The CIAC rules state that girls may participate on a boys team — “however, a member school has discretion to exclude girls from boys teams when it can demonstrate that its overall sports program does not limit athletic opportunities for girls.”

So it looks like they don't have a girls soccer team. It also says 39 girls play on boys teams in CT. 

There are no 'girls' football or baseball teams that I know of. 

 
 
 
 
Dulay
11.1.4  Dulay  replied to  Raven Wing @11.1.3    2 days ago
Just doing a bit of quick on-line research proves this is not the case.

'Girls' was the operative word there RW. 

Your first 'football' link is for a defunct Ausie WOMEN's league. BOTH leagues have half naked women playing 'football'. 

As for your baseball link, I saw 'A league of their own', too. The last game they played was before even I was born. 

As I said, as far as I know, there are no GIRLS baseball teams. Recently, they are allowing girls play Little League and that should help girls compete on a one on one basis. As your link showed, last year we FINALLY fielded a women's National baseball team and many of those young women probably got to play in Little League. Maybe some day there will be women in MLB. 

As the CT link you posted shows, 39 GIRLS are playing on BOYS teams because there are no GIRLS soccer teams for them to try out for. It isn't a stretch to presume that there are many states where GIRLS are doing the same. The fact that some colleges have teams and the US fields a national team doesn't change that fact.

So it's pretty obvious that even 45 years after Title IX, GIRLS still don't have anything near equal opportunity in sports. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
11.2  Sparty On  replied to  Raven Wing @11    2 days ago

Couldn't disagree more.  

Girls playing in boys sports?   Okay, if they can compete, i'm all for it.   But boys in girls sports?   The average boy athlete WILL dominate the average girl athlete in most sports.   It would penalize girls in girls sports.   Not good, not good at all.

Some things are just natural/logical separations and IMO that is one of them.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
11.2.1  Raven Wing  replied to  Sparty On @11.2    2 days ago

Well....I have to disagree with you there. That's kind of misogynistic thinking. I have met a good many girls who can hold their own any day of the week against a male. And I have seen males get their butts kicked by a female. 

Girls today and not the little shrinking violets and fragile Magnolia blossoms of yester year. I was a Tom Boy in my youth and could out run, out tree and rope climb, and out wrestle any boy in our neighborhood. And that is fact. I also played field baseball, hockey, ran track, and could punch with the best of them. And most of today's girls are more fit that most of us were in my day.

So if you think there are not some girls that can hold their own in a boys sports, or could not fairly compete against boys in girl's sports, you might want to think twice.

 
 
 
Sparty On
11.2.2  Sparty On  replied to  Raven Wing @11.2.1    2 days ago
I have met a good many girls who can hold their own any day of the week against a male. And I have seen males get their butts kicked by a female. 

As have i, myself included in one instance but it simply isn't the norm.   The physiology of the situation dictates the norm.   And that norm yields boys over girls most of the time.   Thats just reality no matter how you try to slice it.

So if you think there are not some girls that can hold their own in a boys sports, or could not fairly compete against boys in girl's sports, you might want to think twice.

Not even close to what i was said.   In fact its just the opposite of what i said so i suggest you take that chip off your shoulders and read what i said again.  

Boys playing in girls sports will take spots from away girls.   No question about it.   And i for one am surprised you would support taking those opportunities away from girls.   Very surprised.   Having coached JrH and HS sports, its already hard enough telling parents and the kids they didn't make the team.   This would just make it worse for the girls.  

This is just another case of taking care of a minority while screwing the majority.   Nothing more, nothing less.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
11.2.3  Raven Wing  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.2    2 days ago
This is just another case of taking care of a minority while screwing the majority.   Nothing more, nothing less.

Not so. It's called gender equality. A term I know most males hate to hear or see. No matter what their gender, if the person  qualifies for the position they are trying out for they should have just as much right to be considered for that position as anyone else, no matter what their gender. To do otherwise is called gender bias or prejudice. This term is not one that males hear, but, a large majority of females do, and not only in sports.

So for you to say that women are considered a minority, then your male chauvinism is showing bright and clear.

 
 
 
Sparty On
11.2.4  Sparty On  replied to  Raven Wing @11.2.3    2 days ago
So for you to say that women are considered a minority, then your male chauvinism is showing bright and clear.

Your words not mine.    Once again the chip on your shoulder shines through like a beacon in a lighthouse.   It's clear now that you have no interest in checking it at the door on this one.

The minority is the small number of biological boys who would try to take spots from the majority of biological girls in sports.   Make no mistake, that is a minority.   A very small minority   And again, i am honestly surprised you would support taking such opportunity away from girls.

I don't.   Not for gender equality, not for anything.

 
 
 
Raven Wing
11.2.5  Raven Wing  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.4    2 days ago

Well..... I am not taking anything away from girls. Again, it's called gender equality. If a male or female can qualify for the position, they have a right to be considered. 

Biological gender has no real meaning one way or the other. It would be unfair for a trans-gender of either sex to be denied a spot on a team they are amply qualified for on any team and allow a totally unqualified person to take the spot simply because they are biological. That is called prejudice. 

Seeing how we disagree on this topic, let's agree to disagree and call it good.

 
 
 
Sparty On
11.2.6  Sparty On  replied to  Raven Wing @11.2.5    2 days ago
let's agree to disagree and call it good.

Agreed

 
 
 
Texan1211
11.2.7  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.4    2 days ago

I wonder how many people would support curbing Title IX in regards to sports? 

Instead of male and female sports, just have anyone interested in playing any sport simply try out. To make the team, you have to be among the best with no regard to sex. Title IX says that opportunities must be equal, and if everyone has a chance to try out, that is equal. Just because the results might not be satisfactory to some won't matter, because everyone has the same opportunity.

Bet that wouldn't fly!

 
 
 
Sparty On
11.2.8  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @11.2.7    yesterday

It is interesting how few "feminists" (and they are plentiful here) are voicing an objection to this.

Must be an awfully confusing time for them.

 
 
 
Dulay
11.2.9  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.4    19 hours ago
Make no mistake, that is a minority.   A very small minority

Yet y'all have been harping on it for DAYS while ignoring the MAJORITY of those that will be helped by the Equality Act. 

 
 
 
Dulay
11.2.10  Dulay  replied to  Sparty On @11.2.8    18 hours ago
Must be an awfully confusing time for them.

Most feminists are intelligent enough to understand that the Equality Act will not have a negative effect on the political, economic or social equality of the sexes. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
11.3  Tacos!  replied to  Raven Wing @11    2 days ago
male sports, such as baseball, football and others

There's really no such thing as "male sports." Sports are sports. As it happens, males tend to be better at most sports than females, so where those sports are competitive, males tend to be the ones to make the team. Thus, alternative opportunities were created for females, excluding males from participating. If males weren't excluded, we would have the same scenario we had before; i.e. sports programs that are almost entirely male.

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
12  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו    2 days ago

The title of this article is false.  If 8 of the 236 votes came from Republicans that means 7 Dems did not vote for it.  But it is the Daily Caller so, no surprise there. 

 
 
 
Ender
12.1  Ender  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @12    2 days ago

It is also cherry picking one small aspect of the bill in order to condemn it.

 
 
 
Don Overton
12.1.1  Don Overton  replied to  Ender @12.1    2 days ago

It is also cherry picking one small aspect of the bill in order to condemn it.

That's very usual for the right.  

 
 
 
Ender
12.1.2  Ender  replied to  Don Overton @12.1.1    2 days ago

Yep. And instead of asking to amend that one little section, they will just use it as an excuse to scrap the whole bill.

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @12.1.2    2 days ago
Yep. And instead of asking to amend that one little section, they will just use it as an excuse to scrap the whole bill.

What little section would you amend, and why?

Surely the Democrats who co-sponsored the bill (it was just about every one of them) could have read the bill first and amended it like normal, right?

Or is this just a Nancy bill that had to be passed to see what was in it?

 
 
 
Ender
12.1.4  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.3    2 days ago

Why would I amend it? I am not the one that has a problem with it.

I am not against equal rights and protections.

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @12.1.4    2 days ago

Why would anyone amend it?

What part would be amended?

I mean, you were the one who brought amending it up.

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.1.6  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @12.1.4    2 days ago
I am not against equal rights and protections

Neither am I, but then again, I wasn't the one who brought up amending it.

Personally, I would scrap the whole thing and forget amending it at all.

 
 
 
Dulay
12.1.7  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.6    2 days ago

If your for equal rights and protections, why would you scrap the whole thing? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.1.8  Texan1211  replied to  Dulay @12.1.7    yesterday
If your for equal rights and protections, why would you scrap the whole thing?

Because it is totally unnecessary.

We have equal rights.

 
 
 
Dulay
12.1.9  Dulay  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.8    19 hours ago
Because it is totally unnecessary. We have equal rights.

Bullshit.

Those in the LGBT community can loose their jobs, their homes, the right to adopt, all based on where they live.

Equal rights shouldn't be based on what state or town you live in. 

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
12.1.10  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.6    an hour ago
Neither am I

So you support this bill.

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
12.1.11  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.8    an hour ago
We have equal rights.

And pigs with wings. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.2  Texan1211  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @12    2 days ago
The title of this article is false. If 8 of the 236 votes came from Republicans that means 7 Dems did not vote for it. But it is the Daily Caller so, no surprise there

Took me all of a 30-second Google search to find out that 7 Democrats did not vote. So every Democrat who actually voted voted for it.

Whew! That was so damn hard………………….

LOL!

 
 
 
Cerenkov
12.2.1  Cerenkov  replied to  Texan1211 @12.2    2 days ago

Nice job pointing out the deflection spin on that comment. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.2.2  Texan1211  replied to  Cerenkov @12.2.1    2 days ago
Nice job pointing out the deflection spin on that comment.

Hey, you know it is hard---Googling AND math together! 

Oh no!

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
12.2.3  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @12.2    an hour ago
Took me all of a 30-second Google search to find out that 7 Democrats did not vote. So every Democrat who actually voted voted for it.

The article claims that it was a unanimous vote by Dems.  That's still false no matter how you try to pretend otherwise.  When you agree that 7 dems did not vote you are also saying they did not vote for this bill.  That's how our language works.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
12.3  Texan1211  replied to  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו @12    2 days ago
The title of this article is false. If 8 of the 236 votes came from Republicans that means 7 Dems did not vote for it. But it is the Daily Caller so, no surprise there.

Unanimous:

u·nan·i·mous
[yo͞oˈnanəməs]

ADJECTIVE
(of two or more people) fully in agreement.
"the doctors were unanimous in their diagnoses"
synonyms:
united · in complete agreement · in complete accord · of one mind · like-minded · of the same mind · in harmony · at one · with one voice · concordant · undivided · consentient
(of an opinion, decision, or vote) held or carried by everyone involved.
synonyms:
uniform · consistent · solid · united · concerted · congruent · undivided

Seems like the article headline is 100% correct.

Why dispute the unvarnished truth?

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
12.3.1  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו  replied to  Texan1211 @12.3    an hour ago
Why dispute the unvarnished truth?

Obviously because it's not even in the same universe as truth much less the "unvarnished" version of it since you yourself have shown that  this vote was not unanimous by Dems since 7 of them did not vote and therefore, by logic and language,  DID NOT VOTE FOR THIS BILL.   You do not get to corrupt  both the arithmetic and the language to make it otherwise no matter how determined you are to make a false claim. 

 
 
 
Kavika
13  Kavika     2 days ago

There is a sport where men and women compete against each other and have for years. 

The Iditarod, The Last Great Race On Earth.

The Iditarod® Race is truly a race among equals, women and men. There is no separate race for women, no special privileges, no mercy. Women compete toe-to-toe with men—and they have a history of victory. 

998 miles in some of the most treacherous areas of the world. Crossing two mountain ranges it stretches the competitors to their physical and mental limits. 

Just finishing this race is a great accomplishment. 

In it's history women have won the event 5 times. This year Ally Zirkle finished 4th. She also has three 2nd places finishes in this race. 

huskysnowiditarodmusheraliy-zirkle-ey9dr

 
 
 
epistte
13.1  epistte  replied to  Kavika @13    2 days ago

Men and women also compete equally in motorsports.  We are powered by gasoline instead of dog chow. 

 
 
 
Kavika
13.1.1  Kavika   replied to  epistte @13.1    2 days ago
Men and women also compete equally in motorsports.  We are powered by gasoline instead of dog chow. 

They also compete in horse racing. They are powered by horsepower instead of gasoline. 

 
 
 
Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו
14  Atheist יוחנן בן אברהם אבינו    2 hours ago

All the usual sorts are carping about trans-males getting on women's sports teams but ignoring the fact that this law also also trans-females to play on men's teams.  That would seem to me to be a much more likely thing to happen but why doesn't that spark the high dudgeon from the Constant Belly-ache Community? 

 
 
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