The Indifference Of Independents Empowers Donald Trump

  
By:  john-russell  •  3 months ago  •  61 comments

The Indifference Of Independents Empowers Donald Trump

Should the world be "fair" to Donald Trump?  Why would it? 

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A few weeks ago a group of "Never Trumpers", made up of ex or disaffected Republicans, announced they would actively oppose Trump for re-election and use their resources to defeat him in the coming election, and if doing so creates an all Democratic government, so be it. 

The Lincoln Project considers Trump to be en existential threat to the American way of life, and the way we govern ourselves. One of it's leaders , Rick Wilson has specifically said that ANY Democratic candidate should be elected over Trump. ANY. That includes Sanders and Warren.  In other words, Trump is so bad that these erstwhile Republican establishment figures openly state that a "socialist" like Sanders is an absolute necessity if the alternative is four more years of Donald Trump. 

The only chance Trump has is if he is "normalized" in the minds of the American public. The attempt to normalize him from the right is the exact, if usually unexpressed, reason Trumpsters invented this "TDS" (Trump Derangement Syndrome) fantasy.  As if it were even humanly possible to be irrationally in opposition to Donald Trump. (It's not).  But Trump supporters make this silly assertion constantly because they want to make Trump look "normal".  A clue - someone who lies thousands of times , often repeating the same , already disproven lies, is not remotely "normal", and is not remotely fit to be president of a great country like the United States.  The assessment of Trump by people around the world is instructive. The vast majority of people in nations that are America's best long term allies think Trump is a horrible person. 


“Across the countries surveyed by Pew Research Center, a median of 64% say they do not have confidence in Trump to do the right thing in world affairs, while just 29% express confidence in the American leader,” Pew said. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/8/trump-still-unpopular-most-nations-especially-west/

Less than 1 in 3 people in these countries trust Trump to do the right thing. Obama's favorable ratings overseas were far higher.  The US was more respected. 

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Why are independents in the US being so kind to Trump?  We rarely hear any of them saying that Trump should not be re-elected under any circumstances.  I think many of them BELIEVE that Trump should not be re-elected under any circumstances, but they are reluctant to say it. Sometimes very reluctant.  It has to do with wanting to be "fair".  "Both sides" have their good points and their bad points they say, as if Trump and Trumpism constitute a legitimate "side". 

Someone who lies thousands of times, in office, does not represent a legitimate "side" in a political debate. It is ludicrous to say so. Not to mention that Trump is a KNOWN crook, bigot and buffoon (moron) as well as being the biggest liar in the political history of our country. 

What is the rationale for independents "normalizing" this insanity? 

The AP has put out their latest article fact checking Trump from the past week.  When will we wake up to the fact that this behavior by Trump is wildly abberational?

AP FACT CHECK:  Trump 's distortions are across the board


Newswire January 11, 2020  |  Associated Press: Financial News

Author: CALVIN WOODWARD and HOPE YEN Associated Press  |  Section: Elections

2920 Words  |  Readability: Lexile: 1290, grade level(s): 11-12




WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald  Trump  systematically fabricated his record before boisterous supporters and the eyes of the world this past week.

To a core question — did the U.S. killing of an Iranian general avoid an imminent attack on U.S. interests? — there is no definitive answer days after missiles flew.  Trump  and his officials said the U.S. attack achieved that result but have yet to prove it.

In other matters,  Trump  offered distortion across the breadth of public policy. He declared clean-air achievements when the air has become dirtier. He claimed to have come up with the "great idea" of letting veterans seek private care at public expense, when that was already law, accomplished by President Barack Obama.

He complained that he didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize for peace in Ethiopia, when he had little to nothing to do with it.

He invented a dialogue with a Democrat in Congress and claimed he succeeded on two fronts where other presidents failed, each time for at least 44 years, a made-up number.

And as he done repeatedly, but this time in the midst of dangerous brinkmanship with Iran, he falsely accused Obama of opening the U.S. treasury to Tehran and handing over a fortune.

A sampling from the week:

PEACE PRIZE

TRUMP : "I'm going to tell you about the Nobel Peace Prize, I will tell you about that. I made a deal, I saved the country and I just heard that the head of that country is now getting the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the country. I said, what, did I have something to do with it? Yeah but, you know, that is the way it is. " Toledo, Ohio, rally Thursday.

THE FACTS:  Trump  did not save Ethiopia.

Ethiopian Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed won the prize in October after he fully accepted a peace deal ending a 20-year border war with neighboring Eritrea that saw some 80,000 people killed.  Trump  had no known involvement in the peace deal.

The prize also recognized Abiy, Africa's youngest leader, for sweeping changes in Ethiopian society as he released tens of thousands of prisoners, welcomed home once-banned opposition groups, expanded freedom of expression and acknowledged his country's past abuses.

Trump  did agree to a request from Egypt's president to mediate a dispute among Egypt, Ethiopia and Sudan over a proposed dam on the Nile River. That mediation continues.

Trump  is known to express pique when he is not recognized in the manner he thinks is deserved. He mocked teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg when Time magazine named her person of the year last month.

___

JOBS

TRUMP : "America lost 60,000 factories under the previous administration, 60,000. You wouldn't believe that's possible but I know it's true. ... No, it's true. No, it's true. ... It's 60,000 closed, gone. They are all coming back. They are all coming back." — Toledo rally.

THE FACTS: It's not true.

The U.S. has indeed lost roughly 60,000 factories but that's since 2001, the start of President George W. Bush's administration. It didn't happen "under the previous administration." And they're not "all coming back."

Construction spending on factories has declined since a recent peak in 2015 during Obama's presidency. Factories cut 12,000 jobs in December, according to the jobs report Friday. Growth in manufacturing jobs decelerated sharply in 2019, to 46,000, down from 264,000 added jobs in 2018.

___

VETERANS

TRUMP  on the Veterans Administration: "For 44 years they try to get accountability. ... I said, you know ... I have an idea, such a great idea. You are going to go out private, you're going to pick up a doctor, you are going to get yourself fixed up, we're going to pay the bill, right? And you know what happened? And I said how — how brilliant is that? They say sir, we've been working on that for 48 years but we've never been able to get it approved. So I was very, very disillusioned but you know what I'm good at, getting things approved and we got it approved." — to cheers at Toledo rally.

THE FACTS: He did not think up the idea and get it approved. Obama got it approved. Obama signed into law the Choice program that lets veterans go to a private doctor at public expense under some circumstances.  Trump  routinely ignores that and says presidents have tried to get it done for 44 years. He only expanded the program.

As for accountability,  Trump  claims that his law means bad VA employees are swiftly fired. But a report released in October by the VA inspector general found "significant deficiencies" in the accountability office established by the law, such as poor leadership, shoddy training of investigators and a failure to push out underperforming senior leaders.

Also at the rally,  Trump  claimed that "44 years" of failure preceded his success in getting the "right to try" initiative into law. That initiative, aimed at giving terminally ill patients more access to unapproved drugs, only goes back five or so years.

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CANCER

TRUMP : "U.S. Cancer Death Rate Lowest In Recorded History! A lot of good news coming out of this Administration." — tweet Thursday.

THE FACTS: The news came from the American Cancer Society, not the administration, and it does not reflect  Trump 's record.

The group said the death rate from cancer has declined nearly 30% since 1991 and took its sharpest one-year drop in 2017. But the data did not reflect cancer-research spending under the  Trump  administration.

Trump  proposed cutting spending at the National Institutes of Health but Congress ignored the effort and raised spending in a bill the president signed. That is not reflected in the cancer society report.

___

IRAN

TRUMP : "Iran's hostility substantially increased after the foolish Iran nuclear deal was signed in 2013. And they were given $150 billion, not to mention $1.8 billion in cash." — address Wednesday.

TRUMP : "Iran now is not wealthy like it was when President Obama handed him $150 billion.." — remarks Thursday.

TRUMP : "They gave around $150 billion including $1.7 billion in the hard cold cash, can you imagine? No, no, can you imagine? $1.7 billion, $1.8 billion in cash." — Toledo rally.

THE FACTS: There was no $150 billion payout from the U.S. treasury or other countries. The U.S. made a separate payment of roughly $1.8 billion to cover a decades-old IOU.

When Iran signed the multinational deal to restrain its nuclear development in return for being freed from sanctions, it regained access to its own assets, which had been frozen abroad. Iran was allowed to get its money back. The deal actually was signed in 2015, after a 2013 preliminary agreement.  Trump  has taken the U.S. out of it.

As for the $1.8 billion: In the 1970s, Iran paid the U.S. $400 million for military equipment that was never delivered because the Iranian government was overthrown and diplomatic relations ruptured. After the nuclear deal, the U.S. and Iran announced they had settled the matter, with the U.S. agreeing to pay the $400 million principal along with about $1.3 billion in interest.

The $400 million was paid in cash and flown to Tehran on a cargo plane, which gave rise to  Trump 's previous dramatic accounts of money stuffed in barrels or boxes and delivered in the dead of night. The arrangement provided for the interest to be paid later, not crammed into containers.

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TRUMP : "The foolish Iran nuclear deal financed Iranian aggression while allowing a quick path to nuclear breakout. That is what it did. And by the way it expires so soon. They can have nuclear weapons." — Toledo rally.

TRUMP : "It's close to expiring. In other words, if I didn't terminate it, it expires in a very short period of time." — remarks at White House on Thursday.

THE FACTS: The 2015 agreement is not about to expire. It imposes limits on Iran's nuclear development for 15 years.

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TRUMP : "The missiles fired last night at us and our allies were paid for with the funds made available by the last administration." — address Wednesday.

THE FACTS: That accusation comes without corroboration. The administration has offered no information supporting the contention that in regaining access to $150 billion of its assets that had been frozen abroad, Iran steered a chunk of that money to the missiles that hit the U.S. bases in Iraq.

"I doubt anyone has the insight into Iran's budgetary mechanisms to say that this money was used for this purpose," said Gerald Feierstein, a career U.S. diplomat who retired in 2016 as the principal deputy assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs.

"It's a funds-are-fungible kind of argument," he said. "I mean, if they have money, can you say that dollar went directly to buy a missile, as opposed to freeing up another dollar that went to buy a missile?"

Joseph Votel, who retired from the U.S. Army in March as the top military commander for the Middle East, said he was not aware of any specific intelligence on this question. "I don't have anything that would particularly support that," he said. "I'm not saying it did or it didn't, but I don't have details to demonstrate it one way or the other."

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ENVIRONMENT

TRUMP : "We have some of the cleanest air and cleanest water on earth, and for our country the air is right now cleaner than it's been in 40 years." — remarks Thursday.

THE FACTS: No, air quality has worsened under the  Trump  administration. And it's a stretch to say the U.S. is among the countries with the cleanest air. Dozens of nations have less smoggy air.  Trump  made the remarks as he proposed the latest enforcement rollbacks for the bedrock environmental acts credited with beginning the clean-up of U.S. air and water a half-century ago.

As to water quality, one measure, Yale University's global Environmental Performance Index, finds the U.S. tied with nine other countries as having the cleanest drinking water.

But after decades of improvement, progress in air quality has stalled.

There were 15% more days with unhealthy air in America in 2017 and 2018 than there were on average from 2013 through 2016, the four years when the U.S had its fewest number of those days since at least 1980, according to an AP analysis of EPA data.

A recent study by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University found that deadly air particle pollution increased 5.5% in the United States between 2016 and 2018 after declining by 24.2% from 2009 to 2016.

"The increase was associated with 9,700 premature deaths in 2018," the study by Karen Clay and Nicholas Muller said. "At conventional valuations, these deaths represent damages of $89 billion."

The Obama administration set records for the fewest air-polluted days.

Trump 's proposal would greatly cut back on the National Environmental Policy Act's requirement that federal agencies consider whether a big construction project would hurt the environment before they approve the project. Other  Trump  proposals would roll back restrictions on major sources of air and water pollution, including coal-fired power plants and autos."

___

ISLAMIC STATE GROUP

TRUMP : "Three months ago, after destroying 100% of ISIS and its territorial caliphate ..." — address Wednesday on Iran's missile strike on two Iraqi bases.

THE FACTS: His claim of a 100% defeat is misleading as the Islamic State group still poses a threat.

IS was defeated in Iraq in 2017, then lost the last of its land holdings in Syria in March, marking the end of the extremists' self-declared caliphate. Still, extremist sleeper cells have continued to launch attacks in Iraq and Syria and are believed to be responsible for targeted killings against local officials and members of the Syrian Democratic Forces.

U.N. experts have warned that IS leaders are seeking a resurgence. This past week, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said the fight against the group was continuing in Syria.

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IMPEACHMENT

TRUMP , on the House Intelligence Committee chairman: "He's a corrupt politician, Adam Schiff. He's corrupt. ... He gave a sentence that he made up. He made it up, and it was not — it was not what was said in the conversation. That's why I released the transcript, got approval from Ukraine." — remarks Thursday.

THE FACTS:  Trump 's timeline is wrong and he's exaggerating the episode and botching the timeline.

Schiff, D-Calif., delivered what he called a parody of  Trump 's remarks in the president's July 25 phone call with Ukraine's leader.

Schiff did so after the White House released a rough transcript of the call, not before, as  Trump  states. So people who read the official account knew Schiff was riffing from it, not quoting from it.

Though  Trump  took umbrage at having words put in his mouth by Schiff, the president routinely invents dialogue. It's a staple of his rhetoric when he mocks political rivals. He did it Thursday night at a rally, making up a conversation he pretended he had — with Schiff.

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TRUMP : "We released the exact transcript." — remarks Thursday.

THE FACTS: No, the White House memo describing  Trump 's phone conversation with President Volodymyr Zelenskiy isn't exact.

It was presented by the White House as a rough transcript. The public does not know precisely what each leader said.

Officials who were tasked to listen in to the call say the rough transcript is largely accurate in representing the material aspects of the conversation as they heard it.

One such witness testified that some quotations in the account were not exact, though he did not consider the variance to be consequential.

___

TRUMP , explaining why he initially held up military aid to Ukraine: "Why is it that the United States pays? And it affects Europe far more than it affects the United States. So why isn't it that France, Germany, and all of those countries in Europe that are so strongly affected, why aren't they paying?" — remarks Tuesday with Greece's prime minister.

THE FACTS: He's incorrect that European countries weren't putting up aid for Ukraine.

European Union institutions have provided far more development assistance than the $204 million from Washington. Specific EU members, Japan and Canada also contribute significantly.

Since 2014, the EU and European financial institutions have mobilized more than $16 billion to help Ukraine's economy, counter corruption, build institutions and strengthen its sovereignty against further incursions by Russia after its annexation of Crimea.

The U.S. is a heavy source of military assistance. But NATO also contributes a variety of military-assistance programs and trust funds for Ukraine. In most such cases, the programs are modest and NATO countries other than the U.S. take the lead

___

ENERGY

TRUMP : "We are independent, and we do not need Middle East oil." — address Wednesday.

THE FACTS:  Trump 's declaration of energy independence is premature. The U.S. still needs plenty of oil from the Mideast.

The volume of U.S. oil imports from the Persian Gulf alone — 23 million barrels in October - would not be easy to make up elsewhere, at least not without major changes in U.S. demand or production.

Technological advances like fracking and horizontal drilling have allowed the U.S. to greatly increase production, but demand remains brisk and the country still imports millions of barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia, Canada, Iraq and other countries. Moreover, much of what the U.S. produces is hard for domestic refiners to convert to practical use. So the U.S. exports that production and imports oil that is more suitable for American refineries to handle.

On energy more broadly, the U.S. is indeed close to parity on how much energy it produces and how much it consumes. In some months, it produces more than it consumes. But it has not achieved self-sufficiency. In the first nine months of last year, it imported about as much energy as it exported.

___

MILITARY

TRUMP : "The American military has been completely rebuilt under my administration, at a cost of $2.5 trillion." — address Wednesday.

THE FACTS: That's an exaggeration.

It's true that his administration has accelerated a sharp buildup in defense spending, including a respite from what the U.S. military considered to be crippling spending limits under budget sequestration.

But a number of new Pentagon weapons programs, such as the F-35 fighter jet, were started years before the  Trump  administration. And it will take years for freshly ordered tanks, planes and other weapons to be built, delivered and put to use.

The Air Force's Minuteman 3 missiles, a key part of the U.S. nuclear force, for instance, have been operating since the early 1970s and the modernization was begun under the Obama administration. They are due to be replaced with a new version, but not until later this decade.

___

Associated Press writers Christopher Rugaber, Ellen Knickmeyer, Matthew Lee, Michael Biesecker, Lolita C. Baldor, Matthew Daly and Robert Burns contributed to this report.


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JohnRussell
1  author  JohnRussell    3 months ago

Trump whines because the prime minister of Ethiopia got the Nobel Peace Prize, lied about cancer, lied about veterans, lied about loss of US factories, lied about clean air, lied about energy independence, lied about Obama "giving" Iran money. 

A typical few days in the Trump presidency. 

 
 
 
squiggy
1.1  squiggy  replied to  JohnRussell @1    3 months ago

"“Across the countries surveyed by Pew Research Center, a median of 64% say they do not have confidence..."

That's why they don't get to vote here.

 
 
 
Ronin2
1.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  squiggy @1.1    3 months ago

Shhh, Don't crush their dream.

They still think it is important what the rest of the world thinks. Frankly, our "allies" need to STFU and leave the US alone. Try taking care of themselves for a change instead of relying on the US to do all the heavy lifting.

But Trruuummmmppppp!!!!!!

It is the only thing the Dems have. Their campaign ideas are economy destroying; and their candidates clowns that can't get out of each others way.

 
 
 
JBB
2  JBB    3 months ago

If you can't pick sides in 2020 you are a bad citizen...

If you can't tell right from wrong you're a bad person.

 
 
 
MUVA
2.1  MUVA  replied to  JBB @2    3 months ago

If you judge people by who they vote for and not the actions that they take you are unamerican.

 
 
 
JBB
2.1.1  JBB  replied to  MUVA @2.1    3 months ago

We should judge politicians for what they do!

Any voting for Trump are complicit w/Trump.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
2.1.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    3 months ago

I think what you do not see or refuse to see is that we are all products of our upbringing and our environment. Just as you, and by you I mean the progressive liberal left,  choose to damn any that do not share your particular political views, my personal feeling is that I see the progressive liberal left's views as the greater problem in this country. Contrary to what some here believe and have repeatedly accused me of, I am not particularly a Trump supporter. I voted 3rd party in the last election and may do so in the next. I fully respect the right of each individual to believe what they will. Some here believe the same while others refuse to do so, both on the right and the left. As long as I am treated with a modicum of respect, I will gladly reciprocate. Treat me like crap and you will get that right back.

 
 
 
MUVA
2.1.3  MUVA  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @2.1.2    3 months ago

I think for some it is all the got it's like a game they have no life no wealth no meaning spending day after day trying to change people's minds by belittling them.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
2.1.4  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @2.1.2    3 months ago

I dont care about "reciprocating" with people. I want to know why they vote for and support a man who is a pathological liar, a crook, a bigot , and a moron.  He embarrasses our country every single day , and the world knows it. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
2.1.5  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    3 months ago

John, I'm sorry you totally missed or ignored all that I was trying to say above. Either way, I still respect your views and your right to them even if you cannot or will not respect my right to mine. Have a good evening.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
2.2  r.t..b...  replied to  JBB @2    3 months ago
If you can't pick sides in 2020 you are a bad citizen... If you can't tell right from wrong you're a bad person.

One in the same, JBB, and who could possibly be riding the fence at this point? As for this independent, the choice is clear and affirmed daily. 

 
 
 
 
WallyW
2.3  WallyW  replied to  JBB @2    3 months ago

TRUMP-PENCE   2020jrSmiley_49_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ronin2
2.4  Ronin2  replied to  JBB @2    3 months ago
If you can't pick sides in 2020 you are a bad citizen...

At this point I don't think anyone is having a problem picking sides.

If you can't tell right from wrong you're a bad person.

If anyone thinks the Democrats are right, then they are definitely wrong.

Congrats to the Democrats for making themselves the greater of two evils. Took a lot of work, They should be proud of themselves.

 
 
 
bugsy
2.4.1  bugsy  replied to  Ronin2 @2.4    3 months ago
Took a lot of work

Not really...

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
3  The Magic Eight Ball    3 months ago
Why are independents in the US being so kind to Trump?

because they are done with the liberal progressives socialist BS

next question?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
3.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @3    3 months ago

Not all dems are socialists or even progressives. 

 
 
 
GregTx
4  GregTx    3 months ago

The contempt that partisans show for anybody that doesn't seem to think or feel like they do is the fuel behind that indifference.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  GregTx @4    3 months ago

People should explain why they are indifferent towards Trump.  Otherwise it is inexplicable. 

 
 
 
MUVA
4.1.1  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1    3 months ago

Why people vote for someone is none of your business.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MUVA @4.1.1    3 months ago

Well, we know that you dont have a good reason for supporting a pathological liar.  I was speaking of independents. 

 
 
 
MUVA
4.1.3  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    3 months ago

It is none of you business why someone votes the way they do. I'm as Independent as they come but will not vote for a leftist wealth redistribution type never ever.

 
 
 
bugsy
4.1.4  bugsy  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    3 months ago
I was speaking of independents. 

Well, that certainly leaves you out.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.5  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MUVA @4.1.3    3 months ago

What kind of mental weakling is Trump that he has to complain about the prime minister of Ethiopia getting the Nobel Peace Prize instead of him? 

Any idea? 

 
 
 
MUVA
4.1.6  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.5    3 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
4.1.7  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MUVA @4.1.6    3 months ago

[Deleted]

 
 
 
MUVA
4.1.8  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.7    3 months ago

No one here could give me a hard time on this site I would love to meet some of these keyboard tough guys in person.

 
 
 
WallyW
4.1.9  WallyW  replied to  JohnRussell @4.1.2    3 months ago

More and more people of all political persuasions are realizing what the Dems amount to and stand for....which is nothing

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
4.1.10  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  WallyW @4.1.9    3 months ago

That's not true Wally. What we are is picky about our dems, as you should have been about your republican president.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5  author  JohnRussell    3 months ago

I do not believe for a single second that anyone who has objected to this article here is actually an "independent" .  They are Trump loyalists. 

 There are independents on NT, who havent said anything. Which was kind of my point. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
5.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  JohnRussell @5    3 months ago

That is because we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, so why bother? It only brings us aggravation. 

I will tell you this: No independent is indifferent about this election. In fact, I would say we are very impassioned about it. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1    3 months ago
That is because we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, so why bother?

I dont think anyone is ever damned by telling the truth. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.1    3 months ago
I dont think anyone is ever damned by telling the truth. 

Not by telling the truth.

No matter what we say, it's never enough to suit some.  If we condemn Trump, we don't do so vocally enough, and if we don't attack his supporters, well, that's a problem, too.

I don't think anybody here would suspect me of being a Trump supporter, except one NTer who had no idea just how hilariously wrong his accusation was.  But I get derision from some who support him for not supporting him, and also some from his detractors for not being vitriolic enough in my criticism of him.  Guess which one pisses me off more?

Friendly fire sucks.  It alienates potential allies.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
5.1.3  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.2    3 months ago

Well said Sandy! Bravo!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.4  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.3    3 months ago

Thanks, Perrie.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.5  author  JohnRussell  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.2    3 months ago

Let me ask you a question. If you dont support Trump, and it sounds like you dont, why would it give you pause to say so? 

He's not fit for office. If you want to call that vitriol, thats your problem. All it is is the plain truth. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.6  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.5    3 months ago

I've said multiple times on this site that I don't support Trump.  I agree that he's not fit for office.  The fact that you haven't noticed my stance should perhaps cause you to examine your requirements for those you consider to be political allies.  

Must I post an article about it every day?  Must I add it to every comment I make in all caps, a huge font, and perhaps red lettering?

If that's what it takes for you to not accuse me of fence-sitting, then to you, I'll always be a fence-sitter, because I choose not to live my life with a virtual megaphone at my lips.

But you should consider what your requirements and accusations of fence-sitting might be doing - they might be pushing undecideds to the other side.  Is that your intention?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.7  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.1.3    3 months ago


TRUMP : "I'm going to tell you about the Nobel Peace Prize, I will tell you about that. I made a deal, I saved the country and I just heard that the head of that country is now getting the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the country. I said, what, did I have something to do with it? Yeah .

THE FACTS:  Trump  did not save Ethiopia.

=========================================



TRUMP : "America lost 60,000 factories under the previous administration, 60,000. You wouldn't believe that's possible but I know it's true. ... No, it's true. No, it's true. ... It's 60,000 closed, gone. They are all coming back. They are all coming back." — Toledo rally.

THE FACTS: It's not true.





TRUMP  on the Veterans Administration: "For 44 years they try to get accountability. ... I said, you know ... I have an idea, such a great idea. You are going to go out private, you're going to pick up a doctor, you are going to get yourself fixed up, we're going to pay the bill, right? And you know what happened? And I said how — how brilliant is that? 

THE FACTS: He did not think up the idea and get it approved. Obama got it approved. Obama signed into law the Choice program that lets veterans go to a private doctor


TRUMP : "U.S. Cancer Death Rate Lowest In Recorded History! A lot of good news coming out of this Administration." — tweet Thursday.

THE FACTS: The news came from the American Cancer Society, not the administration, and it does not reflect  Trump 's record.



TRUMP : "They gave around $150 billion including $1.7 billion in the hard cold cash, can you imagine? No, no, can you imagine? $1.7 billion, $1.8 billion in cash." — Toledo rally.

THE FACTS: There was no $150 billion payout from the U.S. treasury or other countries. The U.S. made a separate payment of roughly $1.8 billion to cover a decades-old IOU.



TRUMP : "We have some of the cleanest air and cleanest water on earth, and for our country the air is right now cleaner than it's been in 40 years." — remarks Thursday.

THE FACTS: No, air quality has worsened under the  Trump  administration. And it's a stretch to say the U.S. is among the countries with the cleanest air. Dozens of nations have less smoggy air.  


TRUMP : "We are independent, and we do not need Middle East oil." — address Wednesday.

THE FACTS:  Trump 's declaration of energy independence is premature. The U.S. still needs plenty of oil from the Mideast.

==========================================

That is SOME of his bullshit from ONE WEEK. 

I dont know why anyone hesitates to criticize this idiot. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.8  author  JohnRussell  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.6    3 months ago
Must I post an article about it every day?  Must I add it to every comment I make in all caps, a huge font, and perhaps red lettering?

Sandy, you virtually never do.  Are you waiting for more facts? 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.8    3 months ago

If you are unaware of my views on Trump, you haven't been paying attention.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.8    3 months ago

John, I think her views are quite clear. 

Not everyone will be as vociferous as you are regarding Trump.

It IS quite possible to not like someone or care for them particularly without voicing the same opinions over and over again.

That doesn't mean that they don't care as much as you do.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.11  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.10    3 months ago

Im quite sure neither Sandy or Perrie need you to speak for them. 

 
 
 
MUVA
5.1.12  MUVA  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.10    3 months ago

Can you imagine what kind of miserable  [DELETE (can't call him that)]  you have to be to spend every day complaining about one person.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.13  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MUVA @5.1.12    3 months ago

[delete]

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.10    3 months ago
It IS quite possible to not like someone or care for them particularly without voicing the same opinions over and over again. That doesn't mean that they don't care as much as you do.

Exactly so.

John, you should consider that in this conversation, Texan and I, who probably don't agree on much of anything from the color of the sky to how we take our coffee, are on the same side.  A metaphor, if you will.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.11    3 months ago
Im quite sure neither Sandy or Perrie need you to speak for them. 

As am I. I would not presume to speak for them, they don't need any help in that regard.

That is why I didn't speak for them.

But as an observer of the comments here, it appears to me that you are badgering her merely because she doesn't condemn Trump enough to suit you. I have seen you take that stance before--and usually with people who actually agree with much of what you write.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.16  author  JohnRussell  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.14    3 months ago
John, you should consider that in this conversation, Texan and I, who probably don't agree on much of anything from the color of the sky to how we take our coffee, are on the same side.

So you will side with a Trump supporter for the sake of politeness. 

How is it working against him so far? 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.17  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.16    3 months ago
So you will side with a Trump supporter for the sake of politeness. 

Not for the sake of politeness.  Because he's seeing and putting words to the same problem I'm seeing.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.18  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.15    3 months ago

If Sandy wants to agree with you about this I would consider it quite unfortunate. She should spend more of her energy speaking out against the plague on our nation known as Trumpism. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.19  author  JohnRussell  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.17    3 months ago

The problem is Trump is president and not enough independents are saying so.  Thats the problem, not that I am impolite to a few people here. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.20  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.18    3 months ago
She should spend more of her energy speaking out against the plague on our nation known as Trumpism. 

By policing the thoughts and words (or lack of words) of those with whom you agree, you alienate them.  In my case, my mind was made up long ago in opposition to Trump.  But consider the bystander - someone new to politics, for example.  A young person who is just recently starting to pay attention and form opinions.  Your insistence that they express themselves with the same vehemence as you is offputting.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.21  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.16    3 months ago
So you will side with a Trump supporter for the sake of politeness. 

She didn't "side" with me.

How is it working against him so far? 

Well, john, as you have pointed out more than once, Trump has been impeached. And that didn't have one thing to do with someone condemning Trump everyday on a website. Talking on a website won't undo the election of 2016. 

If he isn't removed through impeachment, then vote him out.

Those are the options.

Talking and condemnation won't alter that.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.22  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.19    3 months ago
not enough independents are saying so

Because you're insisting that they follow your script.

We consider ourselves to be independents for a reason.  We don't follow scripts.

 
 
 
Texan1211
5.1.23  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.18    3 months ago
If Sandy wants to agree with you about this I would consider it quite unfortunate. 

I can't speak for her, but I know I don't care.

She should spend more of her energy speaking out against the plague on our nation known as Trumpism. 

Have you ever considered that some people, even some who agree with you, don't want to be talked down to and don't want to be told how to act and what to say?

Just a thought.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5.1.24  author  JohnRussell  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.1.20    3 months ago
But consider the bystander - someone new to politics, for example.  A young person who is just recently starting to pay attention and form opinions.  Your insistence that they express themselves with the same vehemence as you is offputting.

This country is in a crisis. A crisis of leadership, a crisis or morality and national decency.  We are "led" by a pathological liar. If a young person cant form a negative opinion of Trump unless social graces are observed then we are in a hopeless position. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
5.1.25  sandy-2021492  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.24    3 months ago

Honey vs. vinegar, John.

 
 
 
Steve Ott
6  Steve Ott    3 months ago

If you are attempting to get independents to join your cause, you are going about it in exactly the wrong way.

Trump is a result of the system used in America. It is the system that needs to change, not Independents.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1  author  JohnRussell  replied to  Steve Ott @6    3 months ago

Our country is in a CRISIS.  We need everyone who opposes Trump to make that known so we can build an overwhelming consensus against him.  This is not the time to be worried about social niceties. 

If Trump is normalized, he may win and we will get more right wing judges. And more embarrassing insanity from our national "leader". 

People who dont want Trump normalized should speak out on a regular basis. 

There is no such thing as Trump Derangement Syndrome. 

 
 
 
MUVA
6.1.1  MUVA  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1    3 months ago

I'm pretty sure admitting there is a problem is the first step in controlling TDS.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.2  author  JohnRussell  replied to  MUVA @6.1.1    3 months ago

There is no TDS. You are misinformed. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
7  Texan1211    3 months ago

I suppose it is possible not everyone knows that independents decide elections in many cases--especially national elections.

 
 
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