You Can't Say That Anymore

  
By:  wheel  •  2 months ago  •  81 comments

You Can't Say That Anymore
"“The vilest deeds like poison-weeds- Bloom well in prison-air: It is only what is good in Man - That wastes and withers there: Pale Anguish keeps the heavy gate - And the Warden is Despair”

I'm going to talk about something that I literally never talk about to strangers. I'm going to talk about my son. His name is J.T. He will be 40 years old in July. He's in prison in Va. right now.

He got arrested and sent to Youth Detention for the first time when he was 12 years old. 6 weeks, seemed like a eternity to me then. But since then he's spent more than half his life in custody of some sort, detention centers, reformatories, boot camps, wilderness camps, jails, prisons. He's been in jail in 3 different states throughout his checkered past. He's been in prison in 2 different states. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it. He committed the crimes, and he did, and is doing, the time for them. Shoplifting, stealing from people's out buildings and cars, lots of traffic stuff, multiple counts of driving drunk, no license, no insurance, fictitious registration, speeding, eluding, resisting, damage to private property. Alcohol was involved in nearly all of his crimes, including the one when he was 12. Pretty long list. No violent crimes. No raping or robbing or assaulting, no guns or knives, but still it's a pretty long list. He's chosen a tough row to hoe for himself. He's an alcoholic, he admits it but that's as far as he's gone. I've talked to him about counseling, AA, something, anything, to get him off the track he's on. Doing life on the installment plan.

I've spent uncounted hours driving back and forth and standing in line with the other parents and family members on lot of Saturdays and Sundays all over the place, His mother seldom goes with me. She can't stand to see her baby like that. It breaks her heart and she cries all the way home. We others, we're waiting to get to see our kids or brothers or sisters or husbands or wives or parents. For a few minutes usually, sometimes as much as an hour if we're lucky. Mostly just to let them know that they aren't forgotten and that they are loved. The make up of the lines has changed through the years. At first I was almost always the only white person in line and the only man. Now there's a lot more variety, more white and Hispanic, more men. But still the same dynamic. We're just waiting patiently for our chance, our turn, to see our people. Our convicts. We talk while we wait. We get to know each other. If one of the regular crowd turns up missing one week we are all concerned. Sometimes their convict has gotten out, or been transferred, or gotten in trouble and put in the hole and lost visiting privileges. Something to talk about while we wait our turn.

I got to know one woman who had 2 sons in prison. One was in N.C., one in S.C. Visiting day for one was on Sat. and the other on Sun. She told me she drives over 500 miles a weekend to see her boys and she never missed a week that I know of. We never ask each other “What did yours do to wind up here?” That's not good etiquette in the waiting line. Of course we mostly do wind up talking about it sooner or later, but never unless the other person brings it up first. Some do, some don't, it's their business. Convicts do their own time in their own way, and so do the people that love them. And we do the time with them, sitting there like a ghost in the cell of our hearts, waiting right beside them.

And of course, there are some convicts that never, or very seldom, get any visitors. Maybe they don't have anyone on the outside. Maybe their families have turned their backs on them. Either because of the nature of their crimes or because it just hurts too damn much. Because it does hurt, make no mistake about that. It hurts a LOT, all the time. Or maybe it's just too far to drive and they can't get there easily. I met one man who saved up for a bus ticket so he could come see his son, his convict, once a month. He had no driver's license, no car, not much money. It happens lots of different ways, for lots of different reasons that some convicts don't get visitors.

My son, my convict, is one of the luckier ones. He has me and him mom, his daughter, his sisters, his nieces and nephews and cousins. They write to him, accept his phone calls. The kids draw pictures for him. Let him know he's not forgotten and that he is loved. There is a system in place so that we can put a few dollars on his 'book'. So that he can have a some amenities, some snacks, warmer clothes, stamps, writing paper, nothing spectacular but still it helps. There's a system to put money on his account so he can make phone calls. He calls me and his mother nearly every day for a few minutes. He talks to his daughter, his sisters and their kids. It's a good thing even though it's a hard thing. Funny to think that something can be both.

All of this I'm telling you here is not to garner sympathy. It's a long preamble to illustrate a point. And that point is that there are little kids in cages, alone. Some of them sick, some of them dying, all of them scared and alone. And these kids are not convicts. They committed no crimes. They're victims of what is nothing more or less than a fascist regime. Put there not to teach them a lesson, but to instill fear in their parents and other people who might want to seek asylum in our country. And they have no way out. No one to come visit them, no system in place for people to visit them. No phone calls, no one to call. No oversight. No way out. No money for warmer clothes. Many of them can't read or write and they're not being taught. If they did know how to write, they have no one to write to. Just growing up in a cage. Or being distributed across the country secretively and being turned over to people in a way that doesn't have any oversight, without any one being held responsible. It's known that some of them have wound with child traffickers, some have been adopted without their parents knowledge or consent. A lot of them are just waiting, hopelessly, in Hell. A Hell that our country made and is allowing to continue. Actually, they'd be better off as convicts. They would have some rights and some path to freedom. They don't even have that.

These kid's parents? They're my spiritual brothers and sisters. I know what kind of agony they're going through every single minute of every single day. Because I feel it too. They're suffering more than me, without the small comfort that I get to take from speaking to my convict, from visiting him, from knowing there are some small measures I can take to make his life a bit better.

I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime that is doing irreparable harm to the minds and spirits of these children. People like that, people who want to blame the victims or their parents, people who want to engage in 'what about-ism' and propaganda and outright lies can all go somewhere else. I don't care a bit about what those kind of people think. And even the ones who care, the ones who sincerely want to see this regime overthrown aren't really much better. All too many of you are ripping and tearing at each other. “My guy is better than your guy”. “I could never vote for your guy, I'll stay home first or vote 3rd party or vote for Trump. Yeah, that'll teach you a lesson, boy howdy!” And maybe your guy is the 'best' guy. And maybe the other guy is a bumbling buffoon...or not. Whatever, I really don't care about that. I didn't vote for either one of them in the primary here in N.C. and I don't really like either one of them all that much. But that's the past, what I'm talking about is now. Because whatever promises your guy makes, he may or may not be able to fulfill them. He may, or may not, be sincere about fulfilling them. But I am confident that your guy or the other guy, the candidate, whoever it winds up being, will release these children from Hell. But only, you see, if he wins. So vote for who you want to, do whatever you want to. But come November, remember, there are little kids in Hell in our country and you can choose to do your best to release them, or not. But you can't say you're not aware of them. And you can't say you don't know what your decision will cost. You can't say that anymore.


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Wheel
1  author  Wheel    2 months ago

I'm sure a lot of you are surprised to see me write a serious article after so long.  Hadn't really planned to.  This one has just been boiling around inside of me for a long time and it finally had to come out.  Didn't really even want to write it, just felt like I had to.  In all the fuss about COVID-19, and the coming financial collapse, ecological disaster. climate catastrophe, and all that I felt like we've lost sight of more human scale concerns.  Just wanted to remind you all that they're still out there, and that they still matter.

 
 
 
CB
1.1  CB   replied to  Wheel @1    2 months ago

I have wondered about this very thing. In like manner, I even wonder (without further action-taking) if there a war still raging in Syria? At long moments these kinds of news stories are all over the place networks and cable news.

I did make note that when Donald Trump became president talk of Afghan war/fighting drizzled down, then when the Kurds were moved out. . .no more news of Syrian war. I am not really sure what was the precursor to the end of seeing kids in cages, but there is none to view.

In fact, I find it remarkable that you bring it up! It is an affirmation from afar that perhaps yes, those kids are still being held at the border. In some "thrown-together" facilities like Guantanamo Bay-Lite.

What happens when inquisitive and investigative reporters surrender a news story? It seems it can die a permanent death!

 
 
 
Wheel
1.1.1  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @1.1    2 months ago
In fact, I find it remarkable that you bring it up! It is an affirmation from afar that perhaps yes, those kids are still being held at the border. In some "thrown-together" facilities like Guantanamo Bay-Lite.

I read a report that just last night a group of them were secretively flown into NY by ICE.  What the actual HELL!?  Why? and where? and to what purpose?

My real target here is people on the left.  I don't think there's any hope for people on the right and I don't care to waste time on them.

 
 
 
The Magic Eight Ball
1.1.2  The Magic Eight Ball  replied to  Wheel @1.1.1    2 months ago
I don't think there's any hope for people on the right  and I don't care to waste time on them.

 


They committed no crimes. They're victims of what is nothing more or less than

bad parenting and illegal trafficking.

stop illegals entering our country and that stops illegal trafficking.

simple.    


[deleted]

 
 
 
cjcold
1.1.3  cjcold  replied to  CB @1.1    2 months ago

If it bleeds it leads. Unless it has been the lead story for too long. Used to assist an editor on a major daily paper and was always astounded at the callousness.

Spent a few months in a county jail once way back in my misspent youth on a pot charge. First and last time I was ever jailed. Wouldn't allow anybody to come see me because I had to keep my game face on (and I don't look good in orange).    

 
 
 
CB
1.1.4  CB   replied to  cjcold @1.1.3    2 months ago

Thanks for sharing! (Smile.)

 
 
 
Wheel
1.1.5  author  Wheel  replied to  The Magic Eight Ball @1.1.2    2 months ago

Another perfect illustration of the fact that every word I wrote about people on the right is true.  Well done.

 
 
 
Wheel
1.1.6  author  Wheel  replied to  cjcold @1.1.3    2 months ago
Wouldn't allow anybody to come see me because I had to keep my game face on (and I don't look good in orange).    

This is another point that I should have made, thanks for bringing it up.  Many prisoners don't have visitors because they don't want them, not because no one on the outside cares.  As you say, reminders of life beyond the walls can cause a prisoner to fall off their game and being locked up is no place for that to happen.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
1.1.7  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Wheel @1.1.5    2 months ago

Sad that you to choose to tar all on the right with the same brush because it is convenient for you. 

 
 
 
CB
1.2  CB   replied to  Wheel @1    2 months ago

By the way, very nice narrative you put forward above. I liked the opening, the middle, and a return to what matters at the end!

 
 
 
Wheel
1.2.1  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @1.2    2 months ago
By the way, very nice narrative you put forward above. I liked the opening, the middle, and a return to what matters at the end!

Thanks.  I try.  I wanted to make a few points that I felt could be best illustrated by showing that I have a lot of first hand knowledge of what it means to be a convict vs being political pawns.

 
 
 
cjcold
1.2.2  cjcold  replied to  CB @1.2    2 months ago

Yep, there is a future for this writer.

 
 
 
CB
1.2.3  CB   replied to  cjcold @1.2.2    2 months ago

It's very well organized and meaningful, indeed.

 
 
 
squiggy
1.3  squiggy  replied to  Wheel @1    2 months ago

"I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals..."

The whole story leads to a political point, and from there you tell those of a different view to piss off. Start with being honest with yourself.

 
 
 
Wheel
1.3.1  author  Wheel  replied to  squiggy @1.3    2 months ago

I said exactly what I meant to say:

I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime that is doing irreparable harm to the minds and spirits of these children. People like that, people who want to blame the victims or their parents, people who want to engage in 'what about-ism' and propaganda and outright lies can all go somewhere else. I don't care a bit about what those kind of people think.
 
 
 
Heartland American
1.3.2  Heartland American  replied to  Wheel @1.3.1    2 months ago
 
 
 
CB
1.3.3  CB   replied to  Heartland American @1.3.2    2 months ago

removed for context

 
 
 
XDm9mm
3  XDm9mm    2 months ago
I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime that is doing irreparable harm to the minds and spirits of these children.

The ones that have done the irreparable damage to the children are in fact their own parents who brought them to a place illegally hoping to avoid what had been foretold and publicized.

I feel empathy for you and your situation, but as you yourself noted, it was not your choice, but that of your son.  He made his life decisions, and you suffer the consequences.  Much like the children you speak of.  They didn't make the choices their parents did, but they get caught up in the consequences.

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
3.1  Larry Hampton  replied to  XDm9mm @3    2 months ago

Which says and does fuck-all for the poor kids sitting imprisoned right now.

The ones responsible are the ones who could today, at anytime, reverse this for them.

We should be shamed, we deserve to be.

256

This is the sorta thing that wrecks kids for life, that creates a living hell for them. 

At one time we considered ourselves a light on a shinning hill, a country of migrants, a great melting pot. Instead we are stepping back to the Stone-age to Maga; it shouldn't surprise me I suppose to see children imprisoned without rights.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
3.1.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Larry Hampton @3.1    2 months ago
At one time we considered ourselves a light on a shinning hill, a country of migrants, a great melting pot.

We still are.  Come legally and you will be welcomed.  

Come sneaking in the back door or through the window, and you'll be treated the same way other criminals are.

It really is that simple.

 
 
 
Wheel
3.1.2  author  Wheel  replied to  XDm9mm @3.1.1    2 months ago
I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime that is doing irreparable harm to the minds and spirits of these children. People like that, people who want to blame the victims or their parents, people who want to engage in 'what about-ism' and propaganda and outright lies can all go somewhere else. I don't care a bit about what those kind of people think.
 
 
 
CB
3.1.3  CB   replied to  Larry Hampton @3.1    2 months ago

This reminds me of why it is important to be decent and honest with people. Even people and circumstances with whom we have strong disagreements. For the wisdom books have long told us to care about our very souls! (What does it profit a man, woman, boy, or girl to gain the whole of Earth-and be found soulless in the offing?)

Some in this nation are now running around applauding the misuse and abuse of people (old folks, women, and children, men) who simply want a better outcome in life and are willing to work hard toward that goal.

'Bitter' Americans, always looking to their own bottom-line; always strict with others, but never so within. Always desiring that somebody would come along and put the hammer down! Doing it all for the money, wealth, and power. 

Evenso, every time, we fail the test of our humanity a situation appears from across the horizon which causes us to remember our own miserable state. The Coronavirus still persuades us, even our hard-cases, that we are one massively large community of human beings for which the connective tissue between us is what's flowing in our blood.

What does it matter if a man, woman, boy, or girl has all the right family, friends, and work associates, when the Reaper appears to question the state of affairs surrounding your soul?

 
 
 
Wheel
3.1.4  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @3.1.3    2 months ago
Some in this nation are now running around applauding the misuse and abuse of people (old folks, women, and children, men) who simply want a better outcome in life and are willing to work hard toward that goal.

...as well as gay people, poor people, homeless people.  Basically anyone who isn't white straight and well to do.

 
 
 
CB
3.1.5  CB   replied to  Wheel @3.1.4    2 months ago

It is so desperately sad to me that the conservative mind is so locked in and captured in the past. This comment is not a put-down, nevertheless. Last night, I was thinking about a silly variety show I watched on NT and felt so strongly about; I looked it up and watched the segment "live" On Demand - what was the name again?

John Russell - showcased a single episode of it - got it - The Masked Singer. The character behind the mask revealed to be Sarah Palin! Former governor from Alaska, republican, hard conservative, former vice-president nominee of the John McCain campaign, and recent divorcee - there she was on national television rockin and giving her all to sound out Sir Mix-A-Lot's anthem: "Baby Got Back!"

"To not be able to see really much of anything out of this [costume], it's really nice," Palin said on stage. "It takes the sharp edges off the world. Everything looks a little bit softer, sweeter. I needed this. I loved this."  "This is the weirdest thing I've ever done, that's for sure," Palin said. "But it's all about fun, it's unity. This is something that our country needs right now too."  

She brought the house down! She roared! In the middle of the night - with Sarah in my thoughts I wondered why she had come to mind. I realized it then: A staunch fundamentalist Christian woman (promised to marry for life) who likely never dances in public and most definitely not to pop music was symbolically and simply poetically making a statement of "shaking it off!" on national television. Doing so, with a raunchy dance tune. I feel sure her fundie constituents could not miss the irony: 'Sarah got back!' 

And for one night-if one night only: A conservative fundamentalist Christian was one in spirit with a liberal audience. 

Sarah, you were 'it,' "Miss Thang"!

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
3.1.6  Larry Hampton  replied to  XDm9mm @3.1.1    2 months ago
Come sneaking in the back door or through the window, and you'll be treated the same way other criminals are.

You do realize that these children, do not even have the rights we afford criminals, don't you? A convicted and imprisoned murderer or rapists has more rights than a 5 year old Guatemalan. 

In what world does that make any frickin' sense?

 
 
 
MUVA
3.1.7  MUVA  replied to  Larry Hampton @3.1.6    2 months ago

Because they rapist killer is a citizen.

 
 
 
CB
3.1.8  CB   replied to  MUVA @3.1.7    2 months ago

Has the Spirit 'moved'?

 
 
 
Wheel
3.1.9  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @3.1.5    2 months ago
A staunch fundamentalist Christian woman (promised to marry for life) who likely never dances in public

Q.  Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

A.  They're afraid people will think they're dancing.

 
 
 
CB
3.1.10  CB   replied to  Wheel @3.1.9    2 months ago

Oh-oh, who made that joke up? (Giggles.)

 
 
 
Wheel
3.1.11  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @3.1.10    2 months ago

I was raised fundie baptist by my mom and grandma.  My grandpa was my main male role model and he was  not a fan of the 'flathead' baptists.  My grandma always hated when he called it that.  It's a wonder they managed to have 11 children. jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

I guess 3 sets of twins helped

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.12  Heartland American  replied to  XDm9mm @3.1.1    2 months ago

Exactly!  We are all for legal immigration and we area nation of immigrants from every where on earth.  We still are a shining city on a hill, a beacon of light shining around the world.  

 
 
 
Wheel
3.1.13  author  Wheel  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.12    2 months ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
CB
3.1.14  CB   replied to  Heartland American @3.1.12    2 months ago

I am curious. Just how many field workers and slaughterhouse workers come here legally, any idea? Enough?

 
 
 
Kathleen
4  Kathleen    2 months ago

I am sorry to hear what you are going through with your son. It’s nice that you are there for him, that means a lot.

 
 
 
Wheel
4.1  author  Wheel  replied to  Kathleen @4    2 months ago

jrSmiley_2_smiley_image.png Thanks

 
 
 
CB
5  CB     2 months ago

Wheel, are you a praying man? Strange forward question I know. However, there is a lot of wisdom which can be gleaned from knowing your frame of reference in this case.

I went through an acoholic's cycle of life with a good friend of mine (besties). There were job/s, centers, hospitals, even a helicopter ride. He didn't win his long battle with diabetes and alcohol. Which I guess goes to show our powerful addiction can be! Anyway, I still miss his "spot" in my life. Just a bestie!

 
 
 
Wheel
5.1  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @5    2 months ago
Wheel, are you a praying man?

Nope.  Not for lack of trying on my mom and grandmother's part.  They started pushing me HARD toward being a preacher when I was a kid.  Had the opposite effect.

 
 
 
CB
5.1.1  CB   replied to  Wheel @5.1    2 months ago

Okay. I understand. People do win out over alcohol and jail sentences. May your son do so as well. I, for one, though saddened by it all, am glad you opened up to us. It can be cathartic, for body, mind, and human spirit!

 
 
 
CB
5.1.2  CB   replied to  Wheel @5.1    2 months ago

Even so, sometimes when you are spending time alone with "Wheel," simply speak to the 'silence' around you and have a good conversation with good old "Peace and Quiet" about what life can be for your son if you can see him come to a realization (the appointed time even) he is sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I think about my own good old grandmother, who probably thought of my walking away from church-life as a highway headed to despair. She's been gone for many, many years now. Still, in my imagination, I envision this "mama" praying after her fashion for her "little warrior." She would be amazed and amused to learn my account of just how and for how long I have returned to belief in God at the appointed time. Grand-mamas are like that, you know.

 
 
 
Wheel
5.1.3  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @5.1.2    2 months ago
what life can be for your son if you can see him come to a realization (the appointed time even) he is sick and tired of being sick and tired.

He thinks he is not worthy of having a better life.  I've talked to him about it.  Because he's been a mess his whole life he thinks that's what he IS.

 
 
 
CB
5.1.4  CB   replied to  Wheel @5.1.3    2 months ago

Not so. He must accent the positive. Is there something good and wholesome he would like to do—go for it all the more now. It will build on itself, no matter how denied and diminished it will build and bank itself. Since he has real-life experiences in state custody translate it to state service. Get a vocational training or higher education degree and get involved in fixing what's broken in other youth and adults lives.

Let go of the negative. Move away in body, mind, and spirit from that which is making him anemic as a person. That is, if he can't move away from the location of his 'old haunts' - be the man - let those old friends go all together. Listen: Count the cost first. That is be sure he means to walk away from everything he has determined is unwholesome to him and his future. This includes every male or female who can get under his "skin" and make him fall back into old habits. Factor them in (or out) ahead mentally.  Then put it all in the trash-bin of the past.

Should he cross paths with them later. Man-up with a confident state of mind. Let them know that ain't him anymore, anyway, any shape or fashion. Listen, he should not judge others. Just smile and  get out of there after firmly declaring a path to go; and bid them good-bye.

 
 
 
Wheel
5.2  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @5    2 months ago
I went through an acoholic's cycle of life with a good friend of mine (besties). There were job/s, centers, hospitals, even a helicopter ride. He didn't win his long battle with diabetes and alcohol. Which I guess goes to show our powerful addiction can be! Anyway, I still miss his "spot" in my life. Just a bestie!

I am sorry about your friend. It's hard to watch someone you care about destroy themselves.

 
 
 
CB
5.2.1  CB   replied to  Wheel @5.2    2 months ago

I still hear his voice. . . . What a light! What a mess! He needed me—somebody. His family loved him flawlessly. Yet, he died at home alone and all of us found his body "corrupted." No good-byes uttered. The death is fading into ground of time now, yet I can still feel his voice and all those long hours of conversations we had.

I gave him all I had to give in the form of wisdom. Ultimately, he could not or would not win this time around.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
6  Perrie Halpern R.A.    2 months ago

First of all, I really have to hand it to you about the blunt honesty about your son. I hope one day he will wake up and turn his life around. Nothing tears at a parent's heart like watching your kid suffer, even if it's at their own hands. 

I agree with you that kids shouldn't be in cages. It is not their fault. Imagine if we put criminal's kids in cages for what their parents did. While I do agree that immigration needs to be addressed, these kids should be at some better kind of detention center and not treated like animals. I would think that most people could agree with that.

 
 
 
Wheel
6.1  author  Wheel  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6    2 months ago
While I do agree that immigration needs to be addressed, these kids should be at some better kind of detention center and not treated like animals. I would think that most people could agree with that.

They shouldn't be in a detention center of any kind unless their parents are there with them.  They aren't criminals and their parents are not criminals.  Seeking asylum is not a criminal act, in fact it's protected by law.  They aren't immigrants, they're refugees.

 
 
 
Wheel
6.2  author  Wheel  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @6    2 months ago
First of all, I really have to hand it to you about the blunt honesty about your son. I hope one day he will wake up and turn his life around. Nothing tears at a parent's heart like watching your kid suffer, even if it's at their own hands. 

Well you know me.  Pick the most hurtful, embarrassing thing in my life and I'll write about it. 

 
 
 
CB
7  CB     2 months ago

This is a great open article. I am glad you shared it with us. Lots going on. Moreover, this is good writing!

 
 
 
Wheel
7.1  author  Wheel  replied to  CB @7    2 months ago
This is a great open article. I am glad you shared it with us. Lots going on. Moreover, this is good writing!

Well thank you.  It's my first one in a while.

 
 
 
CB
7.1.1  CB   replied to  Wheel @7.1    2 months ago

 You're welcome. (Smile.)

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8  Citizen Kane-473667    2 months ago
I've avoided the politics here, because frankly I consider a lot of you to be Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime that is doing irreparable harm to the minds and spirits of these children.

Hardly a "rabid supporter ", but I will say I DO support a lot of his policies--INCLUDING STOPPING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!  I guess we both feel the same way about those with opposing opinions on the matter.

People like that, people who want to blame the victims or their parents, people who want to engage in 'what about-ism' and propaganda and outright lies can all go somewhere else.

Nah, I'll stay right here and call out those parents who deliberately endanger their children by dragging them through dangerous terrains in the company of known criminals. THEY are the fucking Animals who are hell bent on chasing American dollars when there are OTHER countries closer to home that are NOT suffering the same ills as their own. Matter of fact, several South American countries outrank the U.S. for being safer! So don't give me that bullshit excuse that they made that long trek to get away from the violence at home when there are places closer they could flee to. It sucks when actual facts get in the way of emotional arguments,,,

I don't care a bit about what those kind of people think.

What makes you think they care what you think either? At least on this point anyway. You've made it quite clear that you are willing to put these people ahead of those fellow citizens who are currently homeless, not getting proper healthcare, not getting fed a balanced meal, and live and die on the streets of America...which none of your people currently locked up for their illegal actions are facing. Quit wasting our time shedding tears for those who put themselves in harms way, or those who cared so little for their children that they would willingly sacrifice their lives for the good ole American dollar. I'm too busy worrying about the actual citizens--and helping them out.

 
 
 
Wheel
8.1  author  Wheel  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8    2 months ago

Thank you for perfectly illustrating that every word I wrote about people like you is true. Well done.

 
 
 
Freedom Warrior
8.1.1  Freedom Warrior  replied to  Wheel @8.1    2 months ago

Given what he said is undeniably true your comments are pretty much right out of cockwomble land. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.2  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Wheel @8.1    2 months ago
every word I wrote about people like you is true

Which ones Wheel? " Neanderthals, ignoramuses, and rabid supporters of that same fascist regime "??? Because if I'm a Neanderthal for holding people accountable for their actions, then maybe this could explain why today's kids find themselves in the trouble they are in; because their parents refused to hold them accountable for their actions! Sorry, it isn't " their parents fault ", or " societies fault ", or " the schools fault"  when they do the stupid shit that gets them in trouble; IT IS THEIR FAULT--unless their parents didn't teach them Right from Wrong and enforced good behavior using both discipline and rewards appropriately. Of course nowadays it seems that it is parents putting their kids on street corners to sell dope or sending them out to loot during power outages and national disasters. Teaching them that they will never be worth a damn because the " system " is out to get them and keep them down is NOT going to get them into college or get them into a trade.  Why the fuck do you think we've got the explosion of Meth Heads in this country??? It isn't because the parents instilled good ethics in these kids, because if they did, they wouldn't be doing this shit. Everyone has got their hands out wanting them filled with shit they didn't work for. Where does that ethic come from? Who taught them that? Or better yet, if they were taught that, then why aren't we holding those teachers of that premise responsible for being irresponsible?

If that makes me a Neanderthal, then I'm glad to be one! Meanwhile, I've got two kids I raised since birth. One is in college, and the other is studying to be an underwater welder. I get compliments all the time on how well mannered they are, how helpful they are, how kind they are. The college student even started a charity organization at her college to help feed and clothe the homeless people she sees around her college on the streets of Atlanta! THIS is the way I raised my kids. Oh what a fucking Neanderthal I am!

Or maybe I'm really an ignoramus like you say? Maybe I should have taught my kids that The Law means nothing if it stands in the way of getting what they want. Hungry? Store closed? Just break in and take whatever you can! That is what you are preaching here. DON'T follow the Rules. Rules are for Ignorant , Backwards people who know nothing about the way things should be. So tell me something Wheel: Do you only follow the Rules and Laws that benefit you personally?  If so, then you wouldn't mind if I only follow the ones I like, say maybe the "possession is 9/10ths of the law" rule; so you won't mind if I just take whatever you have that I want. That would be so much more in line with what you are preaching here. These illegal immigrants came here to do just that--take what they want. It doesn't matter to them if they undercut our wages, drive up rental costs, drive up our insurance rates, increase our tax burdens to pay for their free schooling and free lunches for their kids. Nah, they don't care one bit what it costs US ! Matter of fact, they care so little they want to demand that we give them Amnesty so they can continue their free ride all while waving their countries flags while demonstrating in our streets. They have no real desire to be American Citizens; they just want the free stuff!

The ones responsible for "kids in cages" are the parents who put them there!

Oh yeah, and just to be clear, I am not a supporter of the " Deporter in Chief " . Not since right after his first 6 months in office almost 12 years ago...

 
 
 
MUVA
8.1.3  MUVA  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.2    2 months ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.4  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  MUVA @8.1.3    2 months ago

removed for context

 
 
 
CB
8.1.5  CB   replied to  MUVA @8.1.3    2 months ago

?

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
8.1.6  Larry Hampton  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.2    2 months ago

384

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.7  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Larry Hampton @8.1.6    2 months ago

Really Larry?  Did YOU go snag those kids and drag them across the border illegally? I know I didn't...

 
 
 
XDm9mm
8.1.8  XDm9mm  replied to  Larry Hampton @8.1.6    2 months ago

Wow.....   can't use words unless others others write them?

In other words try to refute anything said.

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
8.1.9  Larry Hampton  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.7    2 months ago

No, we merely adopted a couple of them.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.11  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Larry Hampton @8.1.9    2 months ago
No, we merely adopted a couple of them.

Their parents too? Or did you let them get sent back and just kept their kids???

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
8.1.12  Larry Hampton  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.11    2 months ago

Mom and Dad have passed on. 

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.13  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  Larry Hampton @8.1.12    2 months ago

You going to tell the story, or do I have to drag it out of you one line at a time?

So far we've got that you've adopted two kids (illegals?) whose parents have died.

Did they die before or after you adopted them?

How old were the kids when the parents died?

How did the parents die?

Were they illegal immigrants too?

How did you know the family to begin with?

Where did they come from?

Etc, etc, etc....

Give us some good reasons why you would deliberately break the Law by aiding and abetting the illegal human trafficking trade. Help us to understand why people would place illegal immigrants above their suffering fellow American's.

 
 
 
Larry Hampton
8.1.14  Larry Hampton  replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.13    2 months ago

Nerm this is something I have shared about in some detail here on the NTers years ago, in more than one article and conversation.

If you wish to backtrack for that information, please do. Those are personal moments shared here with friends. My personal as well as online friends here on NTers have been a constant source of strength In the endeavor, and have since developed relationships with our children. And know our grandchildren. 

The reason you now know is because you asked the question, and I answered. 

 
 
 
CB
8.1.15  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.13    2 months ago
Help us to understand why people would place illegal immigrants above their suffering fellow American's.

Why you can't do both. I like your bold insertion of the word, "illegal," as if that word alone should trump any reason to have compassion and listen to the individual narratives of people. Speak to me farther about it, if you wish. Regarding our suffering American citizens: How many of them are willing today to 'work in the fields' and in our slaughterhouses? Got a number?

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.16  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  CB @8.1.15    2 months ago

Probably the same number as those who fill the jobs now. Funny how prior to the start of this problem with illegal immigrants those jobs were still getting done. I do appreciate the attempt to make the whole "jobs nobody wants to do" lie keep on living. Guess that if all you have is tired old cliches that have been disproven years ago to present, maybe you should bone up on the reality of the situation before we engage further on the subject.

And Yes, you can have compassion on more than one front. As a matter of fact, it is possible to do both at the same time without encouraging people to flout the law. Go ahead, adopt those kids, but do it before the law is broken, not after. You are rewarding illegal behavior. Not exactly a deterrent to breaking other laws...

 
 
 
CB
8.1.17  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.16    2 months ago
Funny how prior to the start of this problem with illegal immigrants those jobs were still getting done.

How come immigrants of questionable persuasion were able to persuade EMPLOYERS ("Patriots") to ignore NEEDY CITIZENS demanding work? They could not work if businesses are not open to them.

"Probably," you say? What means, "probably"? You sound so strong; so cock-sure else wise. Probably, means you don't know if things will properly work after these immigrants are gone.

Complex problems have complex solutions. If not so, then you and me wouldn't be dwelling on it. The issue is these people are here, and asylum seekers are coming, and they can not be 'bundled' into an indistinguishable wrap together and tossed back to from where they come.

Ball in your court. . . .

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.18  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  CB @8.1.17    2 months ago
EMPLOYERS

You mean the same people I've been advocating being jailed and having their assets seized like we do with drug dealers??? Fuck them!

Probably, means you don't know if things will properly work after these immigrants are gone.

No, "probably" at this point in time means that there would probably be more applicants than jobs right now thanks to Coronavirus. Too many people can't survive on Unemployment.  Doh!!!!

they can not be 'bundled' into an indistinguishable wrap together and tossed back to from where they come.

Damn sure can if they are entering the country illegally or overstaying their visas. There is a legal way to become a Citizen, and a legal way to enter this country, and a legal way to stay in this country. If you can't be bother to do it the right way, then get the fuck out and don't come back!

 
 
 
CB
8.1.19  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.18    2 months ago
No, "probably" at this point in time means that there would probably be more applicants than jobs right now thanks to Coronavirus. Too many people can't survive on Unemployment.  Doh!!!!

I am not a "Citizen-Kane whisperer." Since you demonstrate arrogance about it, I suggest striving to be a better communicator. As to the Coronavirus, that is an opportune "probably" because Congress is about to spend a tremendous amount of this nation's future capital intake for one year to make all workers whole during this virus crisis, and hold them in their work 'slots.' No set of workers in the numbers prescribed will opt for the fields based on this specific issue.

 
 
 
CB
8.1.20  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.18    2 months ago
Damn sure can if they are entering the country illegally or overstaying their visas. There is a legal way to become a Citizen, and a legal way to enter this country, and a legal way to stay in this country. If you can't be bother to do it the right way, then get the fuck out and don't come back!

Spoken like someone who has no one to lose or speak up for in this situation. I get it. By the way, that does not imply that I have anybody in particular who is friend, partner, or foe in the immigration issue—I do not. People get entangled emotionally with each other when they work (bond) in-close. Same occurred in the bygone period of master-slave relationships.

By way of example, consider this: If being illegal is the cold-harsh decider of this, then this nation can kick out anybody who repeatedly engages in illegal activities, or execute them, get 'rid' of them like we do vermin. The nation(s) do not do this. Our country will not do it, because of protections in the law and a standard called human rights. Moreover, there is a limited reciprocal reaction which can occur in foreign nations against us-if we act too ghastly, grossly, and negligently to our world brethren.

Native U.S. citizens are not returning to farm labor in sufficient numbers, if at all.

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.21  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  CB @8.1.19    2 months ago
A popular argument among pro-amnesty supporters is that illegal aliens are doing work that Americans won't do. But data from the  Bureau of Labor Statistics  show that in all  occupational fields, the the vast majority of workers are American In the United States there are 20.8 million native-borns unemployed , while there are 7.1 million illegal aliens working and employed   ( Center for Immigration Studies, Table 36 ). By looking at the numbers, if the unemployed natives replaced all the illegal workers in the workforce, 35% of the unemployed would become employed.

Source

The authors examined all 474 civilian occupations as defined by the Department of Commerce and found only six in which non-natives hold a majority — graders and sorters of agricultural products; plasterers and stucco masons; sewing machine operators; tailors, dressmakers and sewers; miscellaneous personal appearance workers; and miscellaneous agricultural workers.

But Camarota said workers in those professions make up only about 1 percent of the U.S. workforce. “They’re almost irrelevant,” he said.

Even among the six occupations with foreign-born majorities, some of the immigrant laborers have become naturalized citizens. And about 755,000 workers were born in the United States, according to the study.

“They still make up almost half even in those occupations,” Camarota said.

More from LifeZette TV

If there truly were jobs that Americans refuse to do, Camarota said, it would be impossible for businesses to fill vacancies in parts of the country where the foreign-born population is small. But that is not the case, he said.

“Where there are not immigrants, Americans do the jobs ,” he said.

Source

But that’s not how the world, or business, works. There’s no such thing as a job an American won’t do. There are such things as jobs that Americans in your geographic area won’t do at the conditions on which you are offering them. At this point in the economic cycle, building homes in Denver now seems to be one of them. 

Source

And therein lies the biggest problem--employers want to pay shit wages to maximize their profits. It was never about "job's American's won't do"; it's about you have to pay them enough to do them!

 
 
 
Citizen Kane-473667
8.1.22  Citizen Kane-473667  replied to  CB @8.1.20    2 months ago
If being illegal is the cold-harsh decider of this, then this nation can kick out anybody who repeatedly engages in illegal activities

Bullshit. Unless you lied to get it in the first place that is :

U.S. citizens (or nationals) can never be stripped of their U.S. citizenship (or nationality), with limited exceptions. 

And you are right:

Spoken like someone who has no one to lose or speak up for in this situation.

Probably because I don't hire them, house them, or aid them in any way in their illegal immigration.I donate to organizations that actually give aid to American's. I don't reward those who try to cheat the system. Apparently, legal immigrants feel the same way too...

 
 
 
CB
8.1.23  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.21    2 months ago
By looking at the numbers, if the unemployed natives replaced all the illegal workers in the workforce, 35% of the unemployed would become employed.

Okay, you and yours go first. Put action to works: Hit the fields bright and early next week. The farmers are waiting for y'all. I doubt you can make up the shortfall, nevertheless.

Furthermore, if you have some roving  idea conservative politicians can push people into the fields, while not going themselves, be careful of what you wish. Your politicians can get themselves put out of their present job and end up as field hands too!

Native U.S. citizens are not returning to farm labor in sufficient numbers, if at all.

There are such things as jobs that Americans in your geographic area won’t do at the conditions on which you are offering them.

Same thing, when you expand upon it. "Won't do." = "Ain't worth it." =  "Find someone else.

Equivalent to immigrants farm workers love their work. It is what they do back home. Back home is dangerous, away from family who have migrated, deadly, and can not pay (reward) them in a 'win-win" fashion. Thus, for these reasons they come to the United States.

I am not saying it is right in all cases. I am saying that once it happens, it expands into a complex issue over time. There are legitimate reason immigration is not being properly legislated in our Congress, Presidencies, and courts.

 
 
 
CB
8.1.24  CB   replied to  Citizen Kane-473667 @8.1.22    2 months ago
U.S. citizens (or nationals) can never be stripped of their U.S. citizenship (or nationality), with limited exceptions. 

True. And I repeat. This nation can kick out anybody who repeatedly engages in illegal activities, or execute them, or get 'rid' of them like we do vermin. The nation(s) do not do this. Our country will not do it, because of protections in the law and a standard called human rights. Moreover, there is a limited reciprocal reaction which can occur in foreign nations against us-if we act too ghastly, grossly, and negligently to our world brethren.

Probably because I don't hire them, house them, or aid them in any way in their illegal immigration.I donate to organizations that actually give aid to American's. I don't reward those who try to cheat the system.

You do not represent any government responsibility to the situation or its accountability(ies) to the Constitution and/or the people of the United States (of whom you are a minute 'parcel'). That is, the government represents all its varied "tribes," and not just your tribe of choice.

You get to give to do whatever you wish, up to a point. The government is tasked to be bigger, better, and more flexible than your or my relatively small 'organization.'

 
 
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