Trump's Supporters Are Getting the Lab-Leak Story Backwards

  

Category:  Op/Ed

Via:  john-russell  •  2 weeks ago  •  62 comments

By:   David Frum (The Atlantic)

Trump's Supporters Are Getting the Lab-Leak Story Backwards
If their thesis is right, it points to a course opposite what they propose.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



If their thesis is right, it points to a course opposite what they propose.

By David Frumoriginal.jpg May 27, 2021Share

Suppose it's true. Suppose the coronavirus spread throughout the world from a Chinese lab. What then?

A ferocious early promoter of the idea that the coronavirus was a Chinese attack was the Trump White House's former chief strategist Steve Bannon. Bannon hoped to transfer responsibility for Donald Trump's failures onto China's rulers. As he told a Polish interviewer in May 2020: "They are totally, 100 percent culpable for every death, for all the agony, for all the economic carnage."

After months of belittling the virus, then-President Trump himself briefly endorsed the Bannon line. "We went through the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is the worst attack we've ever had," he said in May 2020. "This is worse than Pearl Harbor; this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this."

Daniel Engber: If the lab-leak theory is right, what's next?

Trump's early attempt at blame-shifting collapsed, however, because it contradicted a deeper and bigger message from the president and those around him: that the virus was no big deal, nothing to worry about, no reason to close the economy.

You can see the two imperatives hilariously struggling against each other in a February 2020 Rush Limbaugh monologue:


It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump. Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. (interruption) You think I'm wrong about this? You think I'm missing it by saying that's … (interruption) Yeah, I'm dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks.
The drive-by-media hype of this thing as a pandemic, as the Andromeda strain, as, "Oh my God, if you get it, you're dead." Do you know what the—I think the survival rate is 98 percent. Ninety-eight percent of people [who] get the coronavirus survive.

Then, immediately following:


It's a respiratory-system virus. It probably is a Chicom laboratory experiment that is in the process of being weaponized. All superpower nations weaponize bioweapons.

Then, pivot again:


It's really being hyped as a deadly Andromeda strain or Ebola pandemic that, "oh my God, is going to wipe out the nation. It's going to wipe out the population of the world."
The stock market's down like 900 points right now. The survival rate of this is 98 percent! You have to read very deeply to find that number, that 2 percent of the people [who] get the coronavirus die. That's less than the flu, folks.

So the coronavirus is a sinister "Chicom" bioweapon—that is also almost completely harmless, and nothing for the stock market to worry about? Even by the roller-coaster standards of Trumpworld, that was a head-snappingly confusing propaganda line.

It's no big deal.

It'll go away on its own.

Reopen the economy by Easter.

Sunlight and cheap antimalarial drugs will cure everything.

Don't blame Trump.

Hate China instead.

The only way to sort the confusion is to remember that different people in Trumpworld cared more or less about different parts of the message.

Trump himself was only intermittently interested in stoking anti-Chinese feeling. In January and February 2020, he repeatedly praised the Chinese leadership. He downplayed the spread of the virus, resisted doing anything that might spread alarm, hurt the stock market, and endanger his reelection message as he imagined it to be. "I like the [coronavirus case] numbers being where they are," Trump said in early March to explain why he had refused to allow passengers from a stricken cruise ship to disembark. "I don't need to have the numbers to double because of one ship."

David Frum: The pro-Trump culture war on American scientists

Only in March 2020 did Trump adopt anti-Chinese language. That language did not deliver political results, however, and so at the end of March, Trump announced that he would stop. He occasionally resumed, as in his May remarks about an "attack," but he mostly left the "blame China" message to political surrogates and Fox News talking heads. Trump's own core message was virus minimization, a message inconsistent with anti-China finger-pointing.

But other Trump allies were interested in stoking anti-China feeling, and not only as an excuse for Trump's failures, but as a goal in itself.

Senators Tom Cotton and Marco Rubio, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo: They were not concerned with protecting Trump. They had agendas and interests of their own to advance last year, above all an intensification of conflict with China.

Whether Trump won or lost in November—and maybe especially if he lost—the coronavirus could become the supreme justification for a radically more confrontational policy toward China. Better still, it could provide a basis for a culture war here at home, against scientists, against the legacy media, against the Biden administration.

But the facts were not friendly to those who wanted to use the lab-escape idea to inflame relations with China. The bioweapon story almost instantly disintegrated. By March 2020, it was clear that if China had done something wrong, it was a failure of care and safety—not an act of aggression or malice. Perhaps the Chinese had collected virus specimens, neglected to take proper care of them, and then lied about it. That would be a grave and deadly failure, if it indeed happened. But such a failure by China, if real, would point to a U.S. policy exactly the opposite of the one urged by the China hawks.

China may not be a superpower equal to the United States, but it is definitely too big to bully. If some Chinese failure led to the COVID-19 pandemic, the United States is not about to send gunboats up the Yangtze to extort reparations. If Chinese labs are unsafe, the United States and the world must find a way to induce China to improve their safety. And that imperative implies more cooperation with China, not less. It implies more binding of China to the international order, more cross-border health-and-safety standards, more American scientists in Chinese labs, and concomitantly, more Chinese scientists in American labs. There is no "America First" response to a pandemic. If the pandemic did spread because of Chinese secrecy and paranoia, then "America First" would be an even more useless and dangerous policy than it already seemed.

It's not all kumbaya. China may have to be harshly pressured into meeting new international obligations. But if the lab-escape hypothesis is true, or even partly true, it serves notice: We are all more connected to one another than we ever imagined, and the truculent nationalism advocated by Trump and his supporters is pointless and self-harming.

Under its present regime, China and the United States may not be friends. But they are doomed to be partners dealing with a range of risks, from viruses today to climate change tomorrow. Scientific communities will have to share more information, not less. Political leaders will have to find ways to work more closely, not less. We need to get to the truth of the coronavirus. High among those truths: Like it or not, we dwell in one global ecosystem, in which national chauvinism long ago ceased to be an adaptive behavior.


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

The political right has spread so many contradictory and far fetched theories about China that they became the little boy who cried wolf. Even when they are right it sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 weeks ago

When are they ever right, as in correct?

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
1.1.1  SteevieGee  replied to  Tessylo @1.1    2 weeks ago

Frantically googling for an answer to that one.  Stand by....

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.2  Tessylo  replied to  SteevieGee @1.1.1    2 weeks ago
"Frantically googling for an answer to that one.  Stand by...."

. . . . three days later . . . 

giphy.gif

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
1.1.3  SteevieGee  replied to  Tessylo @1.1.2    2 weeks ago

They say you can find anything on google.  Still looking...

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.2  Ozzwald  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 weeks ago

The political right has spread so many contradictory and far fetched theories about China that they became the little boy who cried wolf. Even when they are right it sounds like a ridiculous conspiracy. 

Which their base will still eat up like candy.  They don't see contradictions because their attention span and memory rivals that of a goldfish.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago
So the coronavirus is a sinister "Chicom" bioweapon—that is also almost completely harmless, and nothing for the stock market to worry about? Even by the roller-coaster standards of Trumpworld, that was a head-snappingly confusing propaganda line.

It's no big deal.

It'll go away on its own.

Reopen the economy by Easter.

Sunlight and cheap antimalarial drugs will cure everything.

Don't blame Trump.

Hate China instead.
 
 
 
Snuffy
Junior Quiet
2.1  Snuffy  replied to  JohnRussell @2    2 weeks ago

JR - so after a year + of mainstream media shouting that if someone mentions a possible lab leak as the cause they were shouted down as a racist providing conspiracy theories,  we have a left-leaning magazine publish a piece that deflects from what they have been doing for the past year and instead tries to assign blame on Trump?  It's just sad.

Did Trump fuck up in the beginnings of the pandemic?  Yes in some ways,  but in other ways he was doing good actions and was verbally hammered for the actions he was trying to get done.  I would feel a lot better about MSM if they would just come out and admit they were also wrong in this but they can't seem to get over their partisanship.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @2.1    2 weeks ago

188991582_332738151545542_4068490867813020681_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=WI00uMmCQocAX8XbT3d&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=799776f20953fd1c841caed24ad53dc0&oe=60E1810C

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Snuffy @2.1    2 weeks ago
"We went through the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is the worst attack we've ever had," he said in May 2020. "This is worse than Pearl Harbor; this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this."
D. Trump
==================================================

Did China attack the US by deliberately using a deadly virus ?

Yes or no?

-

The left downplayed the possibility the virus was accidentally created in a laboratory in China because we had an insane president. 

 
 
 
Snuffy
Junior Quiet
2.1.3  Snuffy  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.2    2 weeks ago

Did China deliberately attack the US with a deadly virus,  no I do not believe that.  But there is evidence that the Wuhan lab was conducting gain of function testing and there is evidence that some technicians from that lab did go to a hospital with Covid like symptoms before any official notification of the virus. There is no evidence they were sick from this Covid-19 virus, could have been anything else that is also being worked on in that lab. And we have had our own scientists state that lab accidents and leaks do happen, even here in the US.   So there is a possibility the virus came from an accidental leak from that lab.  But we have heard for the last year + that any suggestion the virus may have leaked from the lab in Wuhan was just conspiracy theory crap and was ridiculed by the left.

The left downplayed the possibility the virus was accidentally created in a laboratory in China because we had an insane president. 

I believe this line of yours is very telling. And idea of an accidental leak out of a lab in China had to be downplayed because the left had to do everything it could to remove Trump and the Republican party. This really shows that the left put partisan politics above the country. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Snuffy @2.1.3    2 weeks ago
And idea of an accidental leak out of a lab in China had to be downplayed because the left had to do everything it could to remove Trump and the Republican party. This really shows that the left put partisan politics above the country. 

Uh, Snuffy, Trump was not for one second fit to be president of the United States. Of course people wanted to see him removed. It would have been a dereliction of their duty as citizens to not want him removed. 

I dont minimize the crisis our country is in. 95% of this crisis comes from people blindly following the worst president in American history. 

-----------------------------------

from the seeded article

If Chinese labs are unsafe, the United States and the world must find a way to induce China to improve their safety. And that imperative implies more cooperation with China, not less. It implies more binding of China to the international order, more cross-border health-and-safety standards, more American scientists in Chinese labs, and concomitantly, more Chinese scientists in American labs. There is no "America First" response to a pandemic. If the pandemic did spread because of Chinese secrecy and paranoia, then "America First" would be an even more useless and dangerous policy than it already seemed.
 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.5  Ozzwald  replied to  Snuffy @2.1.3    2 weeks ago
And idea of an accidental leak out of a lab in China had to be downplayed because the left had to do everything it could to remove Trump and the Republican party.

Or because there was absolutely not a single piece of evidence to support the lab leak claim.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
2.1.6  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @2.1.5    2 weeks ago

Maybe back then..........but how many times was Trump right and all it took was time to wash it out? I have repeated ad nauseum over the last couple of years that Mr. Trump was and is a businessman. In business you harvest ideas by sometimes planting some of the most outlandish ideas to see what may develop from those around you. It sparks thinking and creativity and critical thinking. Yes, even this one.............maybe. We shall see.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.7  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.6    2 weeks ago
"but how many times was Trump right"

NEVER

 
 
 
Snuffy
Junior Quiet
2.1.8  Snuffy  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.4    2 weeks ago
Trump was not for one second fit to be president of the United States.

And I'm not arguing this with you. My entire point is this article is IMO a deflection by a left-leaning MSM outlet to avoid any culpability for their actions and just point fingers at Trump. I might put a little consideration into my thoughts about MSM if they would admit where they were wrong, but they cannot seem to do that. Regardless if Trump needed to be removed from office or not, that does not excuse them from their culpability surrounding the pandemic and the huge impact it has had on the world. 

I dont minimize the crisis our country is in. 95% of this crisis comes from people blindly following the worst president in American history.

But you do appear to minimize it when all you can seem to do is bitch about Trump rather than admit other groups also failed us.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.9  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Snuffy @2.1.8    2 weeks ago
. My entire point is this article is IMO a deflection by a left-leaning MSM outlet

To my knowledge David Frum, the author, is a George Bush style conservative. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
2.1.10  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.9    2 weeks ago
dge David Frum, the author, is a George Bush style conservative. 

Are you a George Bush style conservative? I assume you must be, since you probably seed David Frum articles more than any other pundit.   

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.11  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @2.1.10    2 weeks ago

I really dont care about Frum one way or the other. He drew attention because he was one of the original Never Trumper Republicans. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.12  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.6    2 weeks ago
Maybe back then.....

So, "back then", when Trump made the accusation, there was absolutely no evidence to support it?  Just making sure I understand what you just said.

but how many times was Trump right and all it took was time to wash it out?

None.

I have repeated ad nauseum over the last couple of years that Mr. Trump was and is a businessman.

A failed business man.

In business you harvest ideas by sometimes planting some of the most outlandish ideas to see what may develop from those around you.

So you lie, then pray you find some way to justify that lie.

It sparks thinking and creativity and critical thinking.

Lying sparks thinking and creativity?  He does come up with some creative lies.

Yes, even this one.............maybe. We shall see.

So you are saying that he lied about the China lab, but are hoping that some small part of that lie, may coincidently, be true?

That is by far one of the most honest, but convoluted spins I have ever heard you come up with.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
2.1.13  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @2.1.12    2 weeks ago

Mine was a spin? LMMFAO. You twisted everything I said and cherry picked through to make it seem as though you are right and I am wrong. Your usual MO.........and quite tiring. Ever hear of JFK and his wild assed statement about putting a man on the moon before the end of the decade? How about the Wright brothers? Or how about an electric powered vehicle? Or any one of millions of other examples of innovation that began as a hair brained idea?

Have a nice afternoon.

**cannot..........stop..........laughing OMG**

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.1.14  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.6    2 weeks ago

Donald Trump is a well known pathological liar.   The fact that you call him "Mr. Trump" is a little worrisome. [removed]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @2.1.3    2 weeks ago

You all talk about 'gain of function' testing as if you know what that means!!!!!!!!!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.16  Tessylo  replied to  Ozzwald @2.1.12    2 weeks ago

Sounds like you've summed it all up quite well Ozz!  Kudos!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't . . . . .  Stop . . . .  . Laughing at someone spewing such nonsense.  

trumpturds 'ideas' weren't hair brained schemes - they were batshit flipping craziness!!!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.17  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.13    2 weeks ago

He is right and you are wrong.  

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
2.1.18  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.14    2 weeks ago
The fact that you call him "Mr. Trump" is a little worrisome. Thats what his toadies call him.

Sorry to burst your highly partisan, argumentative bubble but I always use the terms Mr. and Ms. I always referred to Barrack as Mr., Hillary as Ms., you will find a Ms. Harris and Mr. Biden in my list of comments also. [Deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.19  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @2.1.14    2 weeks ago

192309233_327533765555812_7297527097694147400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=38b56G7EdhwAX88y3Zv&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=471eff05a54d3b3362a90fb621cb4a18&oe=60E093D9

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.20  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.13    2 weeks ago
You twisted everything I said

I repeated everything you said in plain English, you just didn't like it.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.21  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.18    2 weeks ago
I always referred to Barrack as Mr.

You don't even know "Barack's" name, nor are apparently willing to look it up..

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
2.1.22  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @2.1.20    2 weeks ago

You parsed them to fit your own narrative............ always do. 

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
2.1.23  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Ozzwald @2.1.21    2 weeks ago
You don't even know "Barack's" name, nor are apparently willing to look it up..

Holy shit I slipped an extra "r" in there. So damned sorry............

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
2.1.24  Bob Nelson  replied to  Tessylo @2.1.19    2 weeks ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
2.1.25  Ozzwald  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.1.23    2 weeks ago
Holy shit I slipped an extra "r" in there. So damned sorry.

Accidents happen, but most people publicly posting, try to be careful with names.  They can too often be altered so as to appear demeaning or insulting.  Especially when you are talking about people you are vocally opposed to.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3  Just Jim NC TttH    2 weeks ago

256

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    2 weeks ago
A ferocious early promoter of the idea that the coronavirus was a Chinese attack was the Trump White House's former chief strategist Steve Bannon. Bannon hoped to transfer responsibility for Donald Trump's failures onto China's rulers. As he told a Polish interviewer in May 2020: "They are totally, 100 percent culpable for every death, for all the agony, for all the economic carnage." After months of belittling the virus, then-President Trump himself briefly endorsed the Bannon line. "We went through the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is the worst attack we've ever had," he said in May 2020. "This is worse than Pearl Harbor; this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this."

Some of your compatriots on the right repeatedly charged that China deliberately created a deadly virus in one of their labs in order to attack and kill Americans, AND your president repeated it gleefully

"We went through the worst attack we've ever had on our country; this is the worst attack we've ever had," he said in May 2020. "This is worse than Pearl Harbor; this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this."

-

Now we are told it wasnt an attack, it was a "lab leak". 

Do you see why no one wants to believe Trump and his conspiracy addled crowd?  Who in their right mind would believe anything a Q Anon supporter says ?  And as we know, Trump and Bannon etc have supported Q Anon in the past. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1    2 weeks ago

187529948_10158548145634833_3070130054071600199_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=meaui-bpTzkAX8iTkKz&tn=ddyv9WRSVi2y4Anp&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=0d3d8c0127e85b3e3aee945e3325096f&oe=60E1C1CA

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3.1.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JohnRussell @3.1    2 weeks ago
Some of your compatriots on the right repeatedly charged that China deliberately created a deadly virus in one of their labs in order to attack and kill Americans,

I wouldn't say deliberately necessarily but there is the possibility that they were working with the virus for whatever reason.

And if it was a lab leak, it was also an attack due to the withholding of information shortly after. Doesn't matter if intentional or not.

And what if they were exploring a deadly form of "biological warfare" that was never to be used but just because they could? There has been a lot of saber rattling lately. Just keep and open mind and let's see what comes of this investigation. The fact that Chinese "media" is pushing the idea that "something" needs to happen (ie the article posted the other day concerning "nukes") unless Mr. Biden calls off the investigation should indicate at least something.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.1.3  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.1.2    2 weeks ago
The fact that Chinese "media" is pushing the idea that "something" needs to happen (ie the article posted the other day concerning "nukes") unless Mr. Biden calls off the investigation should indicate at least something.

Yeah it indicates they follow the Trump school of belligerent  rhetoric. (Fire and Fury)

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2  Tessylo  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    2 weeks ago

How profound!

Who says questioning has become taboo?

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
3.3  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    2 weeks ago

That's nice ... I'll print it out and store it in my odd socks drawer.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3.3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Hallux @3.3    2 weeks ago
store it in my odd socks drawer.

Now there's that open mind I've known for several years.........../ S

jrSmiley_15_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
3.3.2  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.1    2 weeks ago

That's what you get for upvoting some of my comments ... you, you traitor!

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3.3.3  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Hallux @3.3.2    2 weeks ago
That's what you get for upvoting some of my comments

Credit where credit is due my friend. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. And, on occasion, a blind squirrel will find a nut.

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
3.3.4  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.3.3    2 weeks ago
on occasion, a blind squirrel will find a nut.

... and people wonder why I sat in a treehouse.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
3.4  Bob Nelson  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3    2 weeks ago

"Questioning" is not intrinsically valuable. It is stupid to question the shape of the Earth. It is a waste of time to question the result of "1+1= ".

Questioning known facts is either stupid or... an intentional effort to confuse.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.4.1  Tessylo  replied to  Bob Nelson @3.4    2 weeks ago

BINGO!

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Junior Expert
3.4.2  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Bob Nelson @3.4    2 weeks ago
It is stupid to question the shape of the Earth.

Yet someone once did................

It is a waste of time to question the result of "1+1= ".

Someone did. Where do you think the number "2" came from?

Questioning known facts is either stupid or... an intentional effort to confuse.

Known facts were once unknown facts until someone had the insight to raise a question.

Next??

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
3.4.3  Bob Nelson  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @3.4.2    2 weeks ago

That's your way of life, Jim? You question whether 1+1 equals 2... You question whether the Earth is round?

Gee..... 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
3.4.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Bob Nelson @3.4.3    2 weeks ago

Damn, Bob! You're going to make me defend Jim here.

It was once accepted knowledge that the Earth was flat. Several scientists and explorers proved that it wasn't. It's now accepted fact that the Earth is round.

I know what he is saying here. I know you can come up with other examples

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
3.4.5  Bob Nelson  replied to  Trout Giggles @3.4.4    2 weeks ago

I understand that. My question to Jim is whether, today, he continues to question the shape of the Earth.

Known knowns, unknown knowns, unknown unknowns, ... and thankfully, known unknowns...

We waste our time if we question the first. We cannot question the second and third because we're unaware of them. Thankfully, we have that fourth group!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4  Tessylo    2 weeks ago

See John, trumpturd knew how deadly the virus was going to be and he tipped his donors off and they made a killing off it (in more ways than one).  The stock market that is.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
5  Sean Treacy    2 weeks ago

What an incoherent article. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    2 weeks ago

I didnt find it incoherent at all. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
5.1.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1    2 weeks ago

I didnt find it incoherent at all. 

All the hand waiving about the speculations of a radio talk show host in February 2020 somehow lead Frum to the conclusion that if China negligently   killed millions, we must bend over backwards to appease China.

Good luck taking advice from  David Frum. He might be the only person with a  worse foreign policy track record than Joe Biden

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.1.1    2 weeks ago

The political right in this country is obsessed with China, which is a continuation of red scares going back a hundred years. 

I wish it would be possible to investigate this "lab leak" issue without all the ideological baggage and without all Trump's conspiracy brained baggage, but it isn't. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
5.1.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.2    2 weeks ago
ical right in this country is obsessed with China, which is a continuation of red scares going back a hundred years. 

China may well have just killed millions. It's murdered tens of millions of people since WWII.  Try and grasp the reality of that. Today is the anniversary of a massacre where it killed thousands of it own citizens for the crime of asking for basic freedoms. Seems like a regime capable of such wholesale slaughter on a scale that is unfathomable to Americans might be worth being wary of.

Meanwhile, the American left is obsessed with protecting us from the threat of statutes and destroying cities because a ne'er do well was murdered by a rogue cop who will go to jail for his crime.

I wish it would be possible to investigate this "lab leak" issue without all the ideological baggage a

That's the left hang up. Threatening scientists for merely advancing a hypothesis is not rational behavior. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.1.3    2 weeks ago

I am not a fan of China. But "China" should not be used as an ideological weapon in internal US politics either. America is not under threat of turning communist because China is. It is absurd, yet conservative media of one sort or another try to advance this ridiculous idea just about every day. 

If the coronavirus was created in a Chinese lab it was an accident, unless you think the Chinese government wanted to unleash an unknown and potentially uncontrollable disease on its own people. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
5.2  Hallux  replied to  Sean Treacy @5    2 weeks ago

David Frum is incoherent? Why, because he's a real Conservative, not a fake one?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Guide
5.2.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  Hallux @5.2    2 weeks ago
Why, because he's a real Conservative, not a fake one?

Ho! Ho!

Now that's funny. 

 
 
 
Hallux
Freshman Principal
5.2.2  Hallux  replied to  Sean Treacy @5.2.1    2 weeks ago
Now that's funny.

On occasion so is adopted ignorance.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6  seeder  JohnRussell    2 weeks ago

At some point during his first campaign and the early days of his presidency, Donald Trump realized that much of his political base was obsessed with communism and socialism, mainly the Christian right had this obsession, but also the "freedom" crowd like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Mark Levin among others.  Now Trump doesn't give a shit about communism or socialism one way or the other as long as his various frauds , scams and grifts aren't impeded, but he saw he had to pay lip service to the obsession. China, the largest "communist" country on earth became the global bad guy over a myriad of topics. Trump even worked China into his Hunter Biden theory. 

When the coronavirus was seen to have come from a Chinese province, it was completely predictable that Trump and his crowd would blame the Chinese government for trying to conquer the world through deliberately disseminating this disease. It was also predictable that people who opposed Trump on perfectly good grounds on many different issues would be unconvinced by the right wing conspiracy mongering. 

Now we are where we are today. 

 
 
 
Transyferous Rex
Freshman Participates
7  Transyferous Rex    2 weeks ago
Suppose it's true. Suppose the coronavirus spread throughout the world from a Chinese lab. What then?

How does the author justify the year long pivot from "there's no fucking way it came from the lab, and anyone that utters such is an anti-chinese bastard," to "what fucking difference does it make where it came from"? 

China may not be a superpower equal to the United States, but it is definitely too big to bully. If some Chinese failure led to the COVID-19 pandemic, the United States is not about to send gunboats up the Yangtze to extort reparations.

I tend to agree re a military response, but you don't pivot from gunboats to reach-arounds. There's some responses in between there.

If Chinese labs are unsafe, the United States and the world must find a way to induce China to improve their safety.

More reach-arounds and don't stop the money? We've watched our own media, for a year, cover for China. The WHO...? What the hell have they done? If this is a lab leak, the reach-arounds and money are already not having a positive global effect.

And that imperative implies more cooperation with China, not less. It implies more binding of China to the international order, more cross-border health-and-safety standards, more American scientists in Chinese labs, and concomitantly, more Chinese scientists in American labs.

Pie in the Sky. Not saying its not something to shoot for, or hope for, but cooperation implies that everyone is pulling on the same rope, for the same purpose, with full transparency. Nothing about this has been transparent. Shit, Fauci and his followers are splitting hairs, defending their position that giving millions to a lab, where it is known that gain of function research is being undertaken, is not funding of gain of function research. Right...and I'm not funding my brother's drug habit by giving his jobless ass cash for groceries. 

If the pandemic did spread because of Chinese secrecy and paranoia, then "America First" would be an even more useless and dangerous policy than it already seemed.

More useless and dangerous than turning an apparent blind eye? I don't think so. 

It's not all kumbaya. China may have to be harshly pressured into meeting new international obligations.

Well, at least he admits its mostly kumbaya. Harshly pressured? I'm envisioning a reach-around performed with the left hand of a right handed person. Awkward, but still pleasurable. WTF would the new international obligations be, and why the hell does the author believe China would abide? 

 
 
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