President Biden's biggest defeat: Afghanistan war ends amid chaos and broken promises
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Fairly or not, it's Joe Biden's defeat.
Instead of savoring credit for ending America's longest war, the president faced withering criticism Sunday for the inept way the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan was executed – just the sort of chaotic exit that he had promised weeks ago would never happen.
Left at risk were U.S. diplomats, some lifted from the Kabul Embassy by helicopter in a reminder of the desperate evacuation in Saigon at the end of the Vietnam War in 1975. Afghans who had served as translators for U.S. troops and helpers for Western journalists reported bracing for the worst as the Taliban moved to take over the capital
As Afghan governmental forces collapsed with stunning speed, Americans were left to wonder what had been achieved through two decades of warfare, thousands of casualties and the investment of billions of dollars.
The war was launched by President George W. Bush and supported by overwhelming majorities of Americans in the wake of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Afghanistan had sheltered the terrorists led by Osama bin Laden, whose death at the hands of U.S. special operations forces 10 years later was a moment of American celebration. Both President Barack Obama and President Donald Trump wanted to end U.S. participation in the conflict; neither managed to deliver that.
Biden made the decisions that set the stage for a messy American retreat and an astonishing Afghan military reversal. Despite U.S. training and superior military hardware, Afghan troops offered little resistance to Taliban forces.
Now the crucial developments in Afghanistan will be largely out of Washington's control: Will Afghanistan once again become a haven for terrorists? Will any of the gains made in the past 20 years, especially in the lives of women and girls , survive the Taliban's takeover?
The defeat was the most devastating for Biden since he moved into the Oval Office. The dramatic and disturbing footage from 7,000 miles away instantly overshadowed last week's victory when the Senate passed the foundation of his domestic agenda, a $1 trillion infrastructure bill and a $3.5 trillion budget blueprint.
In a series of TV interviews Sunday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken argued that the Biden administration had inherited a mess not of its making. He noted that Trump had set a May deadline for the withdrawal of U.S. forces under an agreement that the Taliban would renounce its ties to al-Qaida, the terrorist group behind the 9/11 attacks.
"We inherited a deadline, negotiated by the previous administration," Blinken said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "And the idea that we could've maintained the status quo beyond May 1st if the president had decided to stay, I think, is a fiction." More time wouldn't have made a difference, he said.
What was harder for the White House to defend was the disconnect between Biden's assurances of an orderly transition and the havoc that followed. During the campaign, he emphasized the depth of his credentials on foreign policy , as a former chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and eight years as vice president.
"The likelihood there's going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely," Biden said last month. He declared, "There's going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy … of the United States in Afghanistan."
The "hasty rush to the exit" that he promised wouldn't happen was precisely what Americans saw in the scenes from Kabul, raising questions about the quality of the intelligence the United States had gathered and the contingency plans it had made.
Rep. Liz Cheney, R- Wyo., whose father, Dick, was vice president when the war began, said the Trump administration bears some of the blame. "They walked down this path of legitimizing the Taliban, of perpetuating this fantasy, telling the American people that the Taliban were a partner for peace," she said on ABC's "This Week."
Biden holds responsibility as well, she said, for what is happening and what will happen. "We've now created a situation where, as we get to the 20th anniversary of 9/11, we are surrendering Afghanistan to the terrorist organization that housed al-Qaida."
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This is very frustrating for me .. a 'peace deal' was made with the fucking Taliban .. how is that a binding agreement?
I have had conversation with a couple friends this morning .. we all seem to see things a bit differently. I think the Afghan people have been betrayed by the US .. I do not think their military could fight the Taliban psychological .. I am told however that the Afghan security forces had not been paid in months - so the Taliban offering money was hard to ignore .. I do not know .. if any one can find a link I would like to read it.. I have not found one that details this allegation ...
Peace
This seems to be an impossible situation. The USA spent considerable time and fortune trying to defend Afghanistan from the Taliban and, most importantly, trying to arm and prepare the military to defend themselves.
The question is this: if the Afghanistan people / military are unable or unwilling to defend themselves, even with the considerable time and investment the USA and allies have devoted to this country, what can be done?
There might be a solution to this, but I do not see one.
Yes, this is the question that has been tossed around for a few days .. since the investment made has now been lost, it is a lil late to do much but bomb the Taliban and drive them out once more..
I feel that the US could have benefited by staying in Afghanistan .. the climate is ideal for many crops, cotton being one. What we have done [in my opinion] is betrayed the citizens and armed the Taliban ...
Wish I had answer TiG .. I am just so sick inside thinking of the women and girls ..
The only solution was the one Rumsfeld had when he (and others) started this war - A large US military presence in the ME for 100 years. I argued against going in when we did and was called a terrorist sympathizer. I argued against troop withdrawal when Trump announced it because everyone should have KNOWN the Taliban would take over before the desert dust settled.
Before it's done men, women and children will be butchered because of US politics. This is an issue that Transends partisan divide. The Bush admin (the order to go in), the Trump admin (the order for withdrawal) and now the Biden admin (the orders to continue withdrawal) all share responsibility for what's to come.
First and foremost, the Afghan people need to be taught the concept of "country" vs "village". And the will to fight for "country" is there. The Afghan military was actually quite capable when they had the support. They've lost almost 2600 since the beginning of the year, about 30,000+ since allied forces stood them up. But they also know that without the support, primarily air power, they would not have the ability to sustain long engagements against the Taliban.
It's difficult for a traditional military institution to fight and defeat a hard core of fanatic ideologues. The fanatics don't fight per any rule books.
Yeah, not what I would consider a solution.
Agreed. But we must also remember that this is how things were before we arrived. The only way to 'fix' Afghanistan is to obliterate the Taliban while spending time and money to help the Afghan people be self-sufficient. We did not obliterate the Taliban and in result the ugly that was Afghanistan fills the void of our departure.
This part of your comment is where we disagree. The US and allies put forth a continued and considerable effort to help the Afghanistan people. We did not arm the Taliban, the Afghanistan military armed the Taliban by abandoning weapons provided to them by the USA and allies.
Given we got involved in Afghanistan 20 years ago, we should have been willing to solve the problem and that would mean obliterating the Taliban. We chose (for obvious world political reasons) to not do that. Leaving the Taliban alive makes the future of Afghanistan entirely predictable.
The Russian handbook on Afghanistan says everything in A'stan revives around tribal relationships and that is where their fealty lies. They have outlasted what? 13 invasions over recent centuries.
It's the Chinese teams turn to try to tame this shit hole country.
Good point.. Islam has a split in beliefs and most of the ME is sectarian in nature .. country is not a concept
It wasn't there in Korea either. But we took the country and divided it in half and have been there to keep the peace. We could have done that as an option. At least then, freedom-loving Afghans could have had the time to get past the village mentality, as in Korea. Also, the Taliban wouldn't have been as emboldened. We will be dealing with them in the future. Mark my words.
Ditto.
I think what happened in Iraq when Daesh swept through should have been an indicator of things to come when the US pulls out .. like it or not, 'we' broke it, now 'our' presence is needed .. .....okay technically the Afghans armed the Taliban ..
True!
and by the end of next year, drought or not, they will resort to anything to grow the poppies
and restart the opium trade in force.
So scary .. as a mother of daughters I suspect the idea of what is happening hits hard .. I try to block it from my mind, but am unable to
They had a stable government in charge of all major cities and some of the areas around them. Now the Taliban will have free reign of the complete country.
Hence the thought it would take 100 years. To defeat the Taliban it would take 2 generations of young people to see that Western freedoms were better than rule under the Taliban. The Taliban would age and literally die off - at least in theory.
Absolutely. It's beyond terrifying. And there is a whole generation of girls who never knew life any other way, but free. I can't imagine what their lives will be like.
I can barely watch the news.
My thought was more along the lines of obliterating the Taliban. Death.
my (not so) lil man turns 21 tomorrow .. he has no idea of an America pre 9/11 ... as the young people of Afghanistan only know life post Taliban.
The news in unnerving!
There is a truce in Korea. That's why there is that thing called the DMZ.
There is no North v South v East v West in Afghanistan. Afghanistan exists as a land mass controlled by war lords and various villages.
The Taliban were not "emboldened". they took advantage of a situation presented to them on a silver platter. There had been a 'deal' with Trump which the Taliban continually violated. Trump then continued to move the end game goal posts. Trump also accepted the advice of his military who advised Biden of the same consequences which Biden ignored.
Of that I have no doubt. I remember another President with a then Vice President Biden withdrawing from another shithole, only to need to return.
Unfortunately, this time there will be no returning. They will be coming here. That's why we fought there, to keep them from our shores.
This is why I do not understand why the current administration upheld a 'peace deal' with the Taliban that they themselves never honored
Scary thought indeed .. yet, I think we know they are already here .. there is no way of knowing who can be radicalized and when it happens
It's the one thing that they did that was not diametrically opposed to Trump and his doctrines. They negated those with happy abandon.
Actually, we already know they're here. CBP has found and detained many on the southern border. The problem being that is only the ones CBP found. They know that there are multitudes of "got aways" that were never caught even though they know from electronic surveillance that they crossed the border but could not get to the area in time and they have no idea who they are or why they're here.
May I remind you, that there is a whole northern border, barely protected, and the last group of terrorists that tried to make it across made it from that border.
Really, it's not that hard to get here if you try.
Need I remind you that our northern border is a country that actually has a functioning not overly corrupted government which takes it's own security much more seriously than the southern nation with a military and police infrastructure that is basically an extension of the cartels operating and controlling that border on the south side of the Rio Grande River?
I know and it makes ZERO sense .. yes, I know Biden campaigned on ending the war .. blah blah .. but he also claimed to have foreign affairs / policy experience. HA!
Not really trying to bash Biden, I guess I am a bit shocked at what seems to be a disregard for human life .. his heart is with those that lives are at risk .. what the....?
Yep .. always best to slip in when the border is busy ..!
Barely. There are daily squishes on that border till today and an army of incredible size on the other side. Only time made that border sound, not a flimsy truce.
Korea was a nation until the Japanese took it over and then it was divided between the US and USSR. It would have been just as easy, to divide that country. There were swarths of it that were more into freedom than others. We do this kind fo crap all the time. Just look at Vietnam. There was a north and a south, but we stayed until we left.
Trump had a deadline to leave that country. Had he been president, we don't know if he would have stayed with that deadline or not. On the other hand, Biden didn't have to abide by Trump's deadline. He chose to as with several other of Trump's policies. The one thing that Biden can't do, is blame Trump, for deciding to stay those policies.
Oh for sure.
And yet the only major terrorist action, post 9/11 came from that border. And I have been to that border many times.... open spaces to the left and to the right and a current government who takes in refugees.
Yes there are. And the South Koreans do what they have to to stop it, and have been pretty successful so far. They also hunt for the tunnels continually being constructed by the North Koreans and destroy those when discovered.
Yep, it was divided post WWII. Times are quite different now than then. And the Taliban were and are woven throughout the entire country, so who exactly was going to draw those dividing lines? You, me, Russia, China, the UN? Who was going to tell some people welcome to freedom and the others, sorry for your plight and suck it up buttercup, you're on your own.
Yes, Trump had a deadline, which was continually being evaluated. But I feel pretty certain that Trump never would have left a major installation in the middle of the night leaving behind caches of weapons and materials, and if he did, he very likely would have had the base turned to dust with airstrikes.
There's a major difference between "refugees" seeking asylum and people seeking a job and better life.
Good point Perrie .. yet doesn't Afghanistan seem to more sectarian than the other countries mentioned?
Yep, I keep hearing Trump tied Biden's hands with the 'peace deal' ... in my mind that is simply not the case .. Biden wanted out and out 'we' went, leaving the blood to flow freely ... all the while blaming the Afghans for not fighting for their own country? I believe it was a foregone conclusion that the country would crumble if we pulled completely out and the administration did not care, just like Obama's 'its Iraq's war' with Daesh, he refused air support when Daesh was like 8k strong roaming the country side killing... The Taliban was out in the open .. a lil air support could have made a difference ... perhaps?
.. all of this is a head shaker to me .. wish I could get what is happening out of my head! logic says one think, my emotions say another
Peace
That is now and we still administer to the peace there, but originally we were there holding it down as were the Russians.
Times are never really that different, we just fool ourselves into thinking so. As for who was going to make that decision, well, the Afgan people would have with our guidance. There were plenty of Afghans who like the old ways and plenty who liked the new. I think instead of trying to negotiate with the Taliban, they should have just spelled it out for them.
Just a guess. We really don't know.
Not sure where you are going with that comment. Do digress.
I'm sure both are seeking a better life. Btw...Canada is letting in Afghan refugees. They said so today, 20,000 of them.
We are always hearing about the southern border being unprotected and that terrorists can come across from there. But in actual fact, it is much easier for terrorists to come across our northern border.
Canada will warn the US if there are any attempting to cross and has done so a number of times.
Onto the border:
Also:
We will take in 20,000 ... from where is a question. There are over 1 million Afghan refugees in either Iran or in Pakistan and my guess is from there.
I have a divergent question: How did the Taliban take care of its SARS-2 problem (in its ranks)? Who helped them? Who will help them going forward with "variants"?
How is it the U.S.A's sole problem to "fix" Afghanistan? Where is the world in this? The media (CNN/MSNBC) are 'flowing the zone' on the suffering that is about to occur, but is that our fault or the Taliban's? Are Europe and the Middle East countries running hours upon hours of footage of reporters questioning what and where their countries are in all this?
Or, do I need to accuse our media of photo and journalistic propaganda? That is what it is starting to look like to me! (And by the way, sometimes propaganda can be a positive thing when it gets better outcomes.)
Absolutely nothing. They had nearly 20 years to get their act together. Perhaps they thought the US would stick around forever?
So you are going to ignore 8 years under Obama; two troop surges that accomplished jack shit of nothing; and his SOFA tying the US to a weak corrupt Afghan government? Obama poured US resources into the country as much as Bush and Trump did; and had a longer time to do it.
You aren't the only one that argued against going in. This should have been search and destroy all the damn way. No occupation and no damn nation building. It is too damn late now; the Taliban are insulated within the population again. They will not leave so easily this time around. Can't bomb them without hitting the civilians we want to protect; and no way in hell is anyone going to tolerate the street to street house to house fighting it would take to remove them from Kabul and every other major city.
Seems like we get to wait for the next major foreign terrorist attack on US soil to see if we can get it right; though I have my doubts given the stuck on stupid foreign policy that seems to transcend administrations and party lines.
I know the Chinese own the mineral rights in Afghanistan; but what has given you any indication that China will even attempt to do what Russia and the US/NATO couldn't?
Really, seems to me the Taliban were fighting a civil war against the warlords before we came. They didn't control much outside of the major cities. I wouldn't call that a stable government. Their harsh Islamic laws didn't make it good either.
So long as the Taliban have Pakistan to retreat to they will never "die off". One thing the Taliban, ISIS/ISIL, and other hard core Islamic factions are good at is reproducing. It is literally baked into their religion and culture.
1st, the two countries are connected. It's not much of a border but it's part of the China Road & Belt program.
2nd they began having meetings with the Taliban 2 weeks ago to establish a foundation and ground rules about not
spreading the Taliban influence into the Chinese Uyghur camps or Provinces.
3rd They do own the rare earth mineral rights and 3 huge oil contracts in the northern mountains and Providences of Af'stan.
They mine a huge copper mine southeast of Kabul
They are not above militarizing their mining operations, with or without Taliban cooperation. China has taken advantage of USA/NATO security without ever contributing troops or equipment. If they cannot extract the copper, oil and rare elements in the new environment, expect China to protect it's long term investments.
How do you think that will work out?
China's standing forces are over 3 million, 617 million in reserves with 2 million reaching draft age every year.
AFghan military strength is now an oxymoron.
Afghan total population is guessed to be between 33 and 39 million.
China is ranked as the 3rd best military.
Afghanistan was ranked 75th until yesterday, lol
China has already recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government.
China will get whatever it wants.
Bingo, you just won the prize, because that's exactly what's going to happen. As part of China's Belt and Road initiative China is going to go in there with investments (because the Taliban need the money), build infrastructure, and they are going to drill for the oil and mine for the abundant rare earth minerals, because that's what's of value in that country. They have already been talking and it won't take long for deals to be made.
China has been there since 2007 benefiting from US/NATO security. Now we shall see if China needs to secure that security itself. This article is from 2013.
Trump bears no responsibility for the actions Biden took and didn’t take.
Well of course Trump is not responsible for actions that Biden took and did not take. Trump is responsible for his part in the Afghanistan situation that Biden inherited, but obviously since Trump is not Biden he cannot be responsible for individual decisions made by Biden.
Obviously, right? Nobody is responsible for the decisions made freely by another individual other than the individual.
Water is wet.
I read that the Taliban have already provided security for the Embassies of China, Russia, Pakistan and Iran.
The Chinese have recently held high level meetings with the Taliban, and I'm sure that the deals that China had originally made with the Afghan government will be honoured by the Taliban, leading to multibillions of dollars of benefits for China and provide the financial benefits for the Taliban that they sorely need. The predictions in the article you linked are now bound to mutually benefit both.
I believe the headline you posted can now read "China WILL Prove Ultimate Winner in Afghanistan"
I wonder if any of those "mutual benefits" will trickle down to Hezbollah, Al Queada, or ISIS......
Buzz, there is more than a little evidence that the Taliban are largely religious and cultural extremists that will violate human rights and human decency to advance their beliefs. There are already credible accounts of widespread violence against their perceived "enemies" among their own people.
You seem to be too eager to promote China at every turn. Most people in America barely give China a thought. Dont be misled by the "anti-communist" wackos. And I would suggest that you dont so quickly paper over Taliban cruelty.
Maybe in your part of the world. In mine, most that I know view China as a greater threat than Russia at this time. But it is a red state so probably pro Putin right?.... lol
Yeah, my part of the world is sane.
If you say so...
Where did I "paper over" Taliban cruelty? My comments refer only to business dealings between the Taliban and China - financial matters.
Yes, I DO promote China. Maybe it's because I've had the great adventure of my life living in China for the past 15 years, and I have been amazed by the sights I've seen and photographed. Maybe it's because I'm married to a resident Chinese woman and have been treated with respect by her whole family, and maybe because I have made some good Chinese friends here who have been loyal and respectful as well. And maybe, because of my actually being here, I have seen with my own eyes what differs from the ugly propaganda believed by Americans. And maybe I'm one of the few people on this site who are willing to NOT DEMONIZE AND BASH China, although it's interesting that most who do not are those who have actually BEEN THERE. What does that tell you?
What I'm really curious about, GregTx, and have been for a while, is just HOW is China such a threat to America? All I've seen China try to do is get the relationship with the USA back on track, with friendly competition if not cooperation, which would benefit both America and China. What is America afraid of? Is it that China might become the world's number one economy? God forbid, eh?
All I've seen China try to do is get the relationship with the USA back on track
You call working with its ally Iran to spread claims that the coronavirus originated in Maryland, spreading lies on social media about vaccines, engaging in massive theft of intellectual property, destroying evidence and obstructing international inquiries into the most destructive pandemic in a century, ""Trying to get the relationship back on track?" I suppose invading Taiwan and killing thousands will be a "peace initiative."
God help anyone
So there is method to this 'madness'! That is, the Taliban have 'shovel-ready' agreements inked, if they can take control of the system of governance in Afghanistan - and, they are said to be in a powerful position to do so. (Although, I read the 'former' president is reporting that he never stepped down and is still in office. He says he is coming back 'home' and that his security team forced in to leave without shoes (such a hurry).)
Your loyalty to your adopted country is not unadmirable. Overlooking Taliban atrocities because they will financially partner with China is not so much.
People in the US, everyday people, pay very little attention to China, Buzz, believe me.
I must have missed those articles. Please enlighten me, if you wish.
I would imagine that some of it has to do with China's unrepentant obsession to be the #1 superpower despite their record with human and civil rights.
Nice list, Sean. I won't bother to post a list of all the things America has been doing and has done to damage China, but you can be sure it's lengthy, and I'm sure you and others know exactly the many inclusions. In the meantime, SINCE I WAS SPEAKING OF THE PRESENT AND NOT THE PAST, (and I compliment you on your expertise of speaking about the past) here is what I meant (referring to the recent meeting of the new Chinese Ambassador to the USA and Wendy Sherman):
China is not my "adopted country". I am merely a temporary guest in China authorized by a visa I must renew every three years. I will NEVER give up my Canadian citizenship and passport.
I didn't know it was necessary to list the Taliban's atrocities before I could speak about the business dealings between China and the Taliban. Has that become a necessity in order to make comments these days?
You have access to Google, you can do your own research unless you intend to pay me to do it for you.
LOL. Posted by a citizen of the present number one superpower that has not exactly been angelic when it comes to human and civil rights.
"Unrepentant obsession"? Please post a copy of your degree in Psychiatry so I can judge your competence to make such a diagnosis.
Why do you give a shit about "business dealings" between China and the Taliban and talk about what financial gains the Taliban "sorely needs"? It doesnt look good on your part.
The topic was originally brought up by Split Personality. I didn't know I then needed your permission to discuss something I had a little knowledge about. I made my point about the topic, and then faced challenges that I responded to. The words "sorely needs" comes from an article I read on MSN about the fact that the Taliban does not have the finances it needs to govern the country, one of the reasons being that much of Afghanistan's finances are held by the USA.
SORELY | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
sorely meaning: 1. extremely; very much: 2. extremely; very much: 3. very much: . Learn more.
I guess if the word "sorely" LABELS me then I should have used a different word, like "absolutely".
Have you ever wondered why it always seems to be necessary that everyone is only entitled to espouse ONE SIDE OF A STORY, and it ALWAYS has to be the way AMERICA says it HAS to be?
It depends on what the other side is. Very few people see a "good side" in the Taliban.
Have I ANYWHERE espoused the "good side" of the Taliban. I've already posted a comment elsewhere that they already killed one and wounded another for carrying an original Afghanistan flag rather than a Taliban one, which is totally contrary to what they promised in their press briefing. My statement about "the other side of the story" was a generalization as I seem to be about the only one who sees both sides. Oh where is Paul Harvey when we really need him....
I dont think you do it intentionally, but it doesnt look good.
So what must I do to make everyone on NT happy? How about....
Enthralling. /s
That is human nature. Fortunately, we all see and react to different situations differently.
At least by the administration in power. Trump had established a "deal" with the Taliban, but as they continually broke their side of the deal, the goal posts were moved by Trump.
The Afghan military forces fought and died as they faced the Taliban. However, they depended on the assistance of the US forces for intelligence and the air power we could supply. Their own pilots were taking over more and more of that capability as time progressed, but they had a near total dependence on American military and contract personnel to maintain those airframes. Plus the parts necessary were obviously not available in the local Plane Repair Shop. The Afghanis were still happy with hand held kites.
That's old news. They were being paid unless there were some local scumbags pocketing the pay going to them. Don't mistake me, as I'm sure there were some situations where forces were not being paid, but there are also some legitimate reasons for that. Out in the hinterlands where battles were conducted, and those fighters might be out for a couple of months at a time, pay was sometimes being withheld for security reasons. If the fighter fell, they didn't want those $$ going to the bad guys when they stripped the corpse for anything and everything before they abused the body.
Yes, with the moral support of the US .. once that back up was gone, sadly they crumbled
Thanks for the comment exexpat
Excellent point. I'd like to add that the Afghan army must have been quickly demoralized seeing provincial capitols taken after the previous administration saying that would be off limits or military equipment being left behind or little support being given to them as the withdrawl was taking place. Think of what was going through the minds of Afghan soldiers when they were down to protecting Kabul?
Right now there are reports that the Taliban is going door to door searching for US allies.
I cannot stop thinking about what was going on in the minds of the soldiers, and citizens basically knowing that death was knocking on the door - I cannot say I completely understand why someone would lay down their weapons .. think I would rather die fighting then have my head removed for some propaganda bit ....
Thankfully I will probably not be faced with the circumstances Afghani's are facing now
Then there are the Afghan people. About 61% are below the age of 24.
All they have known, particularly those young girls, is the freedom the US brought to Afghan life. How will they feel now?
They will quickly be forced to have no feelings at all
Barack Obama’s ambassador to Afghanistan,Ryan Crocker said it best : “I’m left with some grave questions in my mind about [Mr. Biden’s] ability to lead our nation as commander in chief. To have read this so wrong—or, even worse, to have understood what was likely to happen and not care.”
You would see it that way without any "feeling" for the Geo-politics of the situation. Even the so-called liberal media is propagandizing on this. As we should agree that after twenty years and numerous former presidents, the Afghan president, talked a good game, up to the point where it was time for him to put up or shut up: That "dude" left and is nowhere to be found!
And here you are damning this country's leader who let you see that political angle for yourself with your own eyes! Or does it suit your agenda to profit from exploiting this president over a country that had leaders, plural, (in remote places) surrender without firing any shot from one side of Afghanistan to Kabul?
Interview with McMaster this morning
Watch TODAY Excerpt: Taliban takeover of Afghanistan ‘whoud, H.R. McMaster says - NBC.com
You are not taking into account the remarks of Liz Cheney.
Rep. Liz Cheney, R- Wyo., whose father, Dick, was vice president when the war began, said the Trump administration bears some of the blame. "They walked down this path of legitimizing the Taliban, of perpetuating this fantasy, telling the American people that the Taliban were a partner for peace," she said on ABC's "This Week."
Apparently the Trump administration recognized that the Taliban would take power after the United States withdrew. Joe Biden admitted as much when he stated that events on the ground moved faster than expected which suggests Biden anticipated the Taliban regaining power.
The Trump administration was planning and managing a transition for the Taliban to regain power in Afghanistan. That's the purpose of negotiation. During their press conference, the Taliban representatives raised key points that may well have originated during negotiations with the Trump administration. The Taliban were pushing political buttons to avoid international backlash; they had been prepared for that press conference. And there isn't anything to suggest the Biden administration influenced those political talking points.
Legitimizing the Taliban imposes markers to measure legitimacy. Violating those measures of legitimacy would become justification for another war; either military or economic. Legitimacy serves to confine and contain the Taliban within boundaries of acceptable governing actions. The Taliban returning to pre-war behavior threatens their legitimacy.
Is that really what President Biden suggests? Read the relevant portion of the speech transcript:
|\
Now consider this possible meaning: President Biden (see bold in quote) said, "this did unfold. . . . " meaning the Afghan administration and its forces dissolved without much will to fight from one side of the country to the other and ultimately left Kabul in a tight squeeze ("pincher-styled" status). Complicating the departure of the U.S. A.
Does this opinion of mine help or make sense to you?
The Biden comments you highlighted suggest that either Biden expected Afghans to fight a civil war - or - Biden expected that the Taliban would regain power. Biden is indicating he expected Afghan forces would hamper the Taliban's advances and allow the United States time to withdraw in an orderly manner. But that would have entailed fighting a civil war; the Taliban are Afghans and are not foreign invaders.
Afghanistan has a history of inter-tribal conflict and, at least, regional civil war. The Afghans understand that the culmination of a civil war would be a bloodbath of reprisals. It's not surprising that Afghans would want to avoid civil war. Biden's expectation of a civil war hampering the Taliban's advances was delusional. A civil war would not be in the interest of the Afghan people and they understand that because they have lived it.
Biden asks why the United States should fight a war that Afghans refuse to fight? That's a valid question. But Biden's expectation that Afghans would fight means civil war and a bloodbath of reprisals for the Afghan people. Afghans are trying to flee out of fear of reprisals so the outcome of a civil war shouldn't be surprising.
Why would Afghans fight a civil war to cover the United States' backside as it leaves? Obviously that was the expectation of the Biden administration because that was how the withdrawal was planned.
I am pretty sure you are missing the point: We are leaving right now. The Afghan President and his "cabinet" beat us to it. Albeit, unceremoniously.
As I write this, a Pentagon briefing with the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Joint Chief Milley are on CNN. General Milley:
President Biden in less politic-speak was saying, Afghan government you have been given the tools to 'fish' - go fish! Feed your people and yourselves. But, if that is not what you 'hear,' I am okay with that.
I am pretty sure you are ignoring the point. The debate isn't over the United States leaving Afghanistan. There's pretty much general agreement that leaving Afghanistan was long overdue.
The debate is over HOW the United States is leaving Afghanistan.
Which is an expectation that Afghans fight a civil war. Biden was expecting Afghanistan to turn itself into Syria. Biden expected a civil war, Biden planned for a civil war, and now Biden's political spin can't get ahead of events on the ground.
There won't be an Arab Spring in Afghanistan. Afghans are not Arabs; it's a completely different culture than in the Middle East.
One thing we know for certain, Biden won't be doing a political victory dance on the anniversary of Sept. 11 as he planned. Biden chose Sept. 11 as the final date for withdrawal because of its symbolic significance. Now the 20th anniversary of Sept. 11 will be markedly subdued.
Biden has his work cut out to avoid the rather obvious allegations that after twenty years of fighting terrorism in Afghanistan, the terrorists won. We drove the Taliban out and twenty years later the Taliban is back. But that was pretty much inevitable. It's too late to tell the American people that the Taliban has softened their hardline views (as the Taliban tried to convey during their press conference). It's too late to convince the American people that it is possible to negotiate with the Taliban over human rights issues and concerns over terrorism. It's too late to convince the American people that Afghanistan is a better place even with the Taliban in control.
Biden simply screwed the pooch on this one. In the words of Barack Obama, Joe Biden needs to eat his peas.
If Afghans have a civil war (and it still could-should happen) then so be it. Evolution is
hard.a process! /sAs to the "how" we leave. . . we're doing a great job and its 'evening out' everyday according to Defense Secretary LLoyd and General Milley.
However, I'll bite, it must serve some sort of agenda to sit in 'rocking chairs' and look at the 20% percent problem while hoping that the 80 percent fall on its ass! Is that what is happening here, Nerm?
I am not missing anything about Liz Cheney's comment .. I know what the Trump administration did by making an agreement with the Taliban ... but I also know the Taliban broke the agreement when they went on a killing spree, if I remember correctly they started killing journalists ..
.. and I am not bashing Biden, after reading the agreement that did not involve the Afghan government .. I am saying: a 'peace deal' was made with the Taliban .. [thus the question] how is that a binding agreement?
So I guess taking the country by force is the new way of talking with the once government of Afghan that the Taliban called US puppets? ... why is the US having to secure the airport with fighter jets in the air? .. why are Americans being held up at Taliban check points .. 'we' are negotiating to get foreign nationals out of the country .. seems to me the Taliban is off to a hell of a start towards a kinder gentler version of themselves..!
There is a reality that I think needs to be accepted, Afghanistan will once again be a terrorist haven .. Daesh is already there, the Taliban is still affiliated with Al Qaida. I am hopeful that the world will not sit back and watch women being raped and beaten in the streets .. but I am not holding my breath! The US talks a good game when it comes to human rights .. but ignores what is convenient to ignore
The Taliban are backwards medieval bastards, but they are not stupid, of course they can play off their first press conference .. the US just handed them a country and now talk of legitimatization if they play nice in public .. [sigh]
Peace
(Hand up.) What if Afghanistan was becoming a 'crippling' device on the U.S.A. long-term strategic planning? Should we stay there in-spite of it? Our leadership does not want Afghanistan anymore than we want Iraq!
Why is it not just okay to let Afghanistan be for Afghanistanis?
We have done "good" in that country for x number of years. Why can't the country do "good" for itself (and its women and children)? Answer: A majority there simply don't want to do our version of "good" for women and children.
Just found this one sentence
Taliban Forces Press Afghanistan Offensive As They Approach Kabul | WBEZ Chicago
Who is to blame will be fought on the field of fraught partisan hyperbole and the rubble will bounce in the ensuing rumble for several months.
As to Ms. Cheney, she is a loyal daughter. It should come as no surprise that she left her father out.
In title he was not in charge .. albeit I am rather certain he was in charge to a degree
Only the grunts on the ground get a pass. It took a lengthy stroll at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in the 1980s to make me realize that.
Never thought I would see a repeat of Vietnam .. but American war is all about the politics, once again 'we' exit and allow a nation 'we' broke to fail
I have to ask: How did we break Afghanistan: By giving them money? Did we "break their spirit"? Did we not push the Taliban away so they could develop and thrive for so many years with the obvious end to get their collective house together? What else can you do if you don't plan on staying?
It is not a good look. But how could it be?
As for the women - they had twenty some - okay, if you want to think of it this way - months to 'flee' from the oppressor dwelling in the wings. It will be bad, they won't like it, but do not kid yourselves the women and children will survive - harsh 'dynasties' - survival instincts will kick in.
As for the men folks. . . well, they will catch as catch can.
[sigh] if 'we' were not going to stay, 'we' should have gone in found Osama bin Laden and got out when he was not there - but 'we' did not do that, 'we' played god with a country that we knew was sectarian .. 'we' gave hope to a people that 'we' knew could not defend themselves .. 'we' saw what happened in Iraq when the US pulled out... yet still pulled an Obama 101 drawdown
I do not expect you to share my opinion on the subject .. but please do not approach me in a condescending manner on the subject of what women and children can survive .. as for men, perhaps they are happy to go back to beating, raping and stoning women in the streets....?
Peace out!
My question—my frustration, is how do you will an entire nation to want to be free of its oppressors-if it won't?
I am not being condescending, I am simply overwhelmed with the complexities that certain areas of the world present all the time! I support peace and charity for the world's women. Everybody who knows me well enough on these boards knows that one thing about me.
However, these "god-forsaken" politics (of Afghanistan) will unmake every pack of outsiders who tries to "do better." (Look at our own country's politics du jour. I digress.) Consider this: Twenty years—the Taliban bides its time (as it said they would) and like proverbial roaches pop up with dry gunpowder apropos to "seeing us off" and chasing off the not so national after all twenty yeargovernment-in-Charge and its president.
The media is harking the 'human-angle' and I get it. I feel it too. However, what is one man sitting in an office on the other side of the world supposed to make Afghan provincialism stop dead in its tracks, when hearts and minds are set in staying the course (after seeing what we have to offer)? S/he can not! Indeed, other powerful nations have not changed how Afghan Taliban men treat Afghan women-at-large.
Though it pains us-though it stings us, it is not our duties and responsibilities to socially engineer Afghan culture or its people. That's my opinion.
Additionally, Colour Me Free, I am not opposed to changing my opinion if I see the logic and pragmatic way to make this better for peace-loving people in Afghanistan. For instance, if President Biden were to decide to heed the advice to stay on militarily in Afghanistan I would not be opposed and would be equally supported for the good of the men, women, and children who are in dire straits.
It was wrong of me to lash out CB .. I must just agree to disagree with you
Understood CB
Also, we taught the Afghan army how to 'wage war and protect their 'homeland,' and what has the large portion of that force been doing recently? _ They turned over their American-made weapons to the Taliban (laid them at their feet) and surrendered. Now the Taliban will have the head-knowledge and weaponry that was meant for Afghan "salvation" and potential democracy. It's just too hard.
Peace Be With You, Colour Me Free! (Smile.)
Good point Colour.
This opinion piece you may find interesting
Opinion | Why Afghan Forces So Quickly Laid Down Their Arms - POLITICO
I read it. I do find the media coverage of this Afghan 'problem' troubling. Why? Because there is a great deal of talk about what the U.S. government has behaved "boob-ishly" over and not enough clarity on why the U.S. government would pour time, weapons, trainings, and treasure into Afghanistan under several presidents only to be made national fools of back home in the face of Afghan cultural norms.
After all, if this Opinion | Why Afghan Forces So Quickly Laid Down Their Arms - POLITICO writer knew these cultural 'values' about Afghan society why imply that our intelligence agents did not know it? Did not account for it? Potentially any Afghan child knew this about the culture.
In deed, this may be (I don't know for sure) why President Biden is coming out early in his term. He was not willing to try to outlast the indefinite life of the Taliban. And clearly, the majority of men in the Afghan forces have signaled that liberty under the rule of an oppressive Taliban is preferable to fighting for a state where women and girls can be schooled and travel freely.
This is on the Afghans, lock, stock, and barrels—plural.
And I think it messed up that yet another president has to 'take one' that is, another round of 'cold-cocks' from Afghanistan wishy-washy tribes!
Be there 25 years total and "negotiations" would have landed the same outcome. After more indulgent 'fleecing' of America!
Afghanistan was broke long before we got there. It has just reverted back to the status quo now that we left. The same way it did once Russia left.
The Taliban will control the cities and the warlords will control everything else. They will fight each other endlessly with neither gaining any ground.
I am 100% confident that Joe Biden will be on TV explaining this masterful plan and putting us all at ease about this perceived disaster. Trust the plan folks.
That time will be 3:45 this afternoon.
I think Biden is about to discover that the Taliban ain't no Popcorn!
(Corn Pop)
I stand corrected!
I knew it was corny!
Incidentally, this article's title is doing a lot of work.
The Administration should hire you as their Afghanistan lack of plan sunshine pumper, you're as bad at it as they are.
I would love to see the media and opinion writers run world geo-politics in "third-world" countries for once! The media is hyperventilating over Afghanistan like a pig feeding on fresh slop. Disturbing.
It is okay to get the story/ies out, but this?! It has hallmarks of lack in situational awareness.