Russia has plan to stage attack as pretext for Ukraine invasion, U.S. alleges
Category: News & Politics
Via: perrie-halpern • 2 years ago • 167 commentsBy: Rebecca Shabad and Ken Dilanian
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
WASHINGTON — The U.S. has intelligence about a Russian plan to fabricate a pretext for an invasion of Ukraine using a fake video involving actors, deputy national security adviser Jon Finer said Thursday.
"We don't know that this is the route they are going to take, but we know that this is an option under consideration that would involve actors," Finer said in an interview on MSNBC's "Andrea Mitchell Reports." He described the plan as "extremely elaborate."
The actors would be "playing mourners for people who are killed in an event," Finer said, adding that it would involve "the deployment of corpses of bodies purportedly killed in an incident."
U.S. intelligence suggests Russia considering 'elaborate' pretext to invade Ukraine
A Western intelligence official also confirmed details of the plan, which was first reported by The New York Times and The Washington Post.
The plot involves the release of a video, the official said, that would accuse Ukraine of conducting a genocide against Russian speakers. It includes the staged aftermath of an explosion, as well as video of destroyed locations with images of corpses and faked Ukrainian military equipment, the official said.
State Department spokesperson Ned Price said at a briefing that the U.S. publicized information about the plan to expose "Russia's destabilizing actions towards Ukraine and dissuade Russia from continuing this dangerous campaign and ultimately launching a military attack."
It is the second release of intelligence by Western officials designed to thwart a Russian disinformation campaign. Last month, British officials released intelligence that the Kremlin was developing plans to install a pro-Russian leader in Ukraine.
Senators emerged Thursday from a briefing about the escalating situation along the Russia-Ukraine border from Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Secretary of State Antony Blinken. After the briefing, some senators said momentum has been building to pass a package of sanctions to deter Russia's military from invading Ukraine.
Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., the chair of the Foreign Relations Committee, who is working on the sanctions package with ranking member James Risch, R-Idaho, said it has been gaining extensive bipartisan support.
The Ukraine briefing, Risch said, "only makes the case that this is more pressing, more timely, and that time, in this regard, if we want to be preventative, is of the essence."
"Russia is in the process of producing movies, producing press releases, producing false proof that the Ukrainians are doing something to provoke them. It's important that you get that out there and that the world understands that this is a false operation to try to justify them in an invasion," he said. "Take my word for it. That is happening."
Senators have yet to finalize the measure. Some who attended the briefing said the package includes "pre-invasion sanctions." Several senators also indicated that they were closing in on an agreement.
However, Menendez said "pre-invasion sanctions" isn't how he would characterize the package.
"We are looking at sanctions for actions that have already been taken by the Russians, like cyberattacks against the Ukrainian government by those who are trying to undermine the Ukrainian government as we speak," he said. "Those are sanctions for actions already taken. They're not necessarily pre-emptive."
The sanctions could also target "false flag operations," said Menendez, who declined to elaborate further.
Sen. Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., said the information in the briefing "reinforces the view that I had previously, which is we need to move forward with the sanctions package here quickly."
"You know, we need to make it clear that these are prospective sanctions. In other words, say to Putin and the Russians if you take further aggressive actions in Ukraine, you're going to face these very severe penalties," he said. "Deterrence is the idea that if you do X, we will do Y. If you put penalties in place in advance, at least significant penalties, you obviously take away the stick of deterrence."
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., called the briefing "sobering" and praised Menendez for the work he is doing on sanctions, saying he hasn't seen similar bipartisanship since after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
"The briefing, I think, will accelerate the bipartisan sanctions package," Graham said. "It's clear to me that if there is an invasion in Ukraine, it will be almost impossible to have a normal relationship with Russia.
"This is the first time since 1945 that we've had a real chance of a European war, and to the American people, if he gets away with this in the Ukraine, you can expect China to move on Taiwan. We can expect the Iranians to break out and try to get a nuclear weapon, believing nobody will stop them," Graham added.
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I'm sure...
It almost seems like the Administration and the Military WANT a war to happen....
Believe me, after talking to many of the Paratroopers deploying right now, the military doesn't want it to happen.
Brandon's administration - I'd put money on it. It's a distraction from all the other failures we've seen in the last 12 months.
I'm sure the troopers don't want it brother... especially when it's political in nature... They don't like fighting for failures...
For some this is their 2nd deployment in 7 months. Both are a result of incompetence in the WH.
Say what?
You mean all the troops are not craving to have an opportunity to die-- or be maimed for life..?
For...a cause they might not totally understand..nor totally agree with?
I am shocked...shocked I tell you
Totally understandable.
After all...this would be the first war in history that is "Political In Nature"!
/sarc
They don't like fighting for failures...
But how can you be so sure it would be a failure?
(Not that I'm questionning your expertise when it comes to military analysis ya unnerstan'...but sertiously...how can you predict the outcome of a war between Russia and the U.S....and for that matter with the U.S. and possibly some allied forces?
Personally I don't pretend to have anywhere near your expertise in military analyses..
(Heck, I suppose i may be somewhat naive? After all, I think there's a good chance any significant fighting may not even happen in my (uninformed) ..IMHO!
P.S: My guess-- and yes its just a guess...if that if Russia launches an attack...after its all over...nothing much will have changed.
Good point!
If there's one important priority that any administration must have-- its to prioritize keeping all of our troops out of harm's way.
No matter what the perceived threat-- when the shooting starts (and hopefully before) we must get our entire armed forces away from there and back to safety-- ASAP!
Why doesn't the Biden Administration understand that?
This administration is already a failure, and from his rhetoric, it sure seems like he wants a war...
Ukraine is under MAP, that stands for Member Acceptance Plan, which means they WILL become a member of NATO, once the plan is complete they become a full member.... Georgia, and the Scandanavian nations are under MAP well...
Russia doesn't like that at all... NOT at all... With the breakup of the Soviet all of the nations that Russia was using for a buffer are gone, full members of NATO now...
Nations under MAP have military assistance agreements with NATO without full membership and NATO is obligated to to help them if a majority of the member nations vote to do such.... Out of the 30 nations in NATO I figure it is 25 to 5 for directly helping Ukraine if it comes to that... Germany, France, the US, and I believe a couple of the former Czech states as well are against it...
It is going to depend directly on the US, if we do not get involved NATO will lose, (especially without Germany or France) IF we do with full commitment Russia will lose...
That is the question...
It's a situation that could break NATO cause they are way to dependent on us...
That doesn't seem to be the priority for this administration. Like I said, for many of the Soldiers, it's their 2nd Deployment in 7 months. The 1st on in August 2021 was to attempt to correct a failure by this administration. This one, I'm willing to put money on it, is to protect the jobs and connections of certain individuals. We really have no gain for anything in Ukraine. It's not a NATO Country that we are helping to defend.
Of course you are sure!
(But of course you are also wrong)
THIS...
IS WHAT I SAID SURE TO.. remembering the phantom weapons of mass destruction.. Do you remember those? This is what our intelligence is saying...
Just like last time...
The rest of the comment is in relation to Biden's strong bully pulpit rhetoric about how it will go very bad for the Russians both economic and militarily... That includes the senior brass... They are coming across to me how they would like to do it... How they NEED to do it... We've heard that before as well.. haven't we...
My philosophy is we as a nation do not start wars, we finish them... Just in case you don't know or are thinking otherwise... WE are obligated to defend the Nato countries and since Ukraine is under a MAP, if they ask for help, the members vote on it, simple majority decides, we are then by treaty, law of the land type treaty, committed to defending Ukraine...
You don't have to believe me, look it up, it's the truth... what is plain from the comments here is people clearly do not know how deep we are in this already... We CAN'T just walk away...
If Putin moves into Ukraine, Ukraine will ask, they already have military commitments from Turkey, Romainia, Bulgaria and Poland, consensus is that most of the Nato countries will support defending Ukraine... We are stuck... We are the reluctant big stick if Nato decides to defend we will fight...
Stay out of the Ukraine? make bold threats of sanctions? wrong move... Drop a couple of battalions into Kiev, let Putin know that any invasion of Ukraine will involve the full weight if the United States...
And he will back down... Unless he wants to commit suicide..
it seems more like putin watches FOX, the russian language version...
The Russian language version of FOX News is called RT... Or more specifically, FOX is the English language version of RT. If you see it on RT you'll see it on FOX within the next 24 hrs.
Putin is far smarter than the human fuck up machine in the Oval Office.
Biden is so damn desperate not to look the fool again; that he is releasing as much disinformation as Russia is generating to the public. Putin couldn't ask for a greater fool or useful tool. Russia has no need to move. The longer they sit and wait in their own territory the more pressure it will put on NATO (who will do absolutely nothing w/o the US); and Ukraine. It is only a question of which one pops first. NATO just gives up on Ukraine as being too big of a headache; or Ukraine launches a preemptive strike, and Russia will invade under just cause.
Biden and NATO are looking to deploy troops to the countries that border Ukraine. Once they do Putin will hold them there; until Xi and China move and take Taiwan. The US cannot defend both. Once Taiwan falls the US will be forced to redeploy troops away from Ukraine borders to protect South Korea, Japan, and other Asian allies in the Pacific who are far more important. Putin will then move in and take Ukraine, while NATO watches it fall.
So smart that Sweden and Finland, both with highly modernized armed forces, now want to join NATO ... @!@
Now that's significant.
Perhaps even more so since Sweden had been neutral for a long time...
True dat!
In fact, that's why life in Putin's Russia is vastly superior to life in the U.S.
Under Putin's benevolent rule, life in Russia is vastly superior to life in America...by any measure!
/sarc
You think Putin gives a rats ass about his people? He cares for them only slightly more than he cares about us.
Don't worry, Brandon is doing his very best to turn the US into a third world country. He just needs more time; and more compliant Republicans. He has three more years for the time; and one can only hope Republicans blow the Democrats out during midterms- and Joe can spend that time being a lame duck.
Just like trumpturd, Putin only cares about himself.
trumpturd did his damn-dest to turn us into a third world country -- like usual - it's our turn to clean up the fucking mess made by trumpturd and his criminal enterprise of an administration.
If Putin is indeed planning a false flag attack, he is taking a page out of history and whatever else he may he is no fool. Adolf Hitler used the same ploy to start WWII in Europe when he used SS troops dressed in Polish Army uniforms to attack a German radio station as a pretext for invading Poland on Sep 1, 1939.
Gulf of Tonkin. Lyndon Johnson. Ten freakin' years of war for nothing.
Nerm - we were in 'Nam as "Advisors" - not to fight a "war". The guys in the Black pj's were either VC or CIA and both of them shot at you.
Congrats Perrie, seeding this article has brought out many of the negatrons. Let the great clumping begin ... I'm sure Vlad will be soothed by the number of new fans/dupes queing up for his Dystopic Disney Dacha.
In the meantime, congrats to Patrick Murphy for showing what real courage is capable of.
... and now back to the greatest sport of them all ... Women's Curling.
And let's not forget the newest sport... the ongoing beginning of the uncurling of the MAGA-cultist's lies!
Will Putin invade, back down or stalemate into a new cold war? None of you NT armchair generals know the mind of Putin. And for those of you thinking the Admin want war for whatever reason, none of the troop movements are to Ukraine. They are all in Eastern European NATO countries that are working with the US in a defensive posture. Combine that with the Admin pushing Congress for sanctions - I don't see an Admin keen on military action. This isn't the Bush buildup into Iraq. This is NATO - all of NATO doing what it was setup to do.
The US shouldn't be spending any troops at all. Ukraine is not a NATO member, or our problem, or of strategic interest to us
The US is NOT sending any troops to the Ukraine. They are being sent to neighboring NATO countries.
Who's sending troops to Ukraine? We have legal responsibilities to NATO of which we are a member. I know nationalists don't like it. They are too short sighted to the consequences of ignoring our international responsibilities would be economically catastrophic.
I should have said anywhere close to Ukraine, like neighboring countries. Ukraine is not a member of NATO, or our responsibility..
"Economically catastrophic?"
How so?
Good point!
And as Trump has pointed out on many occasions, Russia is not a threat-- its China!
(After all, Russian's are "White"...while the Chinese are a totally different race...)
/sarc
Of course neither was France..or Poland,,or the Netherlands...or the Sudetenland..when Hitler invaded...(and of course we never had any treaty obligations to save the Jews..or the Poles..or Roma...when Hitler attempted to exterminate all of them..)
We have companies big and small selling things in European markets as well as other countries borrowing US Dollar. We have companies that need parts and materials to complete items they create. For good, or ill, we rely on a global economy. No gnashing of teeth or wailing into the void will change that overnight.
Neighboring countries are part of NATO and don't want Putin picnicking on their back lawn. Europe as a whole doesn't want Russia any more powerful as it is and the US doesn't need to have less global influence.
you have a point , even our own government , with promises if something happens , about supplying lng to europe has some in the northeast demanding that those shipments be limited so as not to raise the price of the product on the conus .
The US shouldn't be spending any troops at all. Ukraine is not a NATO member, or our problem, or of strategic interest to us
By use of the term "Minor Incursions"-- do you believe that the cartoon is impling that Putin's recent invasion-- and forceable annexation of part of the Ukraine . . .was "Minor"?
But you didn't and neither did the cartoon you posted. [Deleted]
So you feel that any stronger nation should be able to freely take over any smaller nation without any interference?
Do you really believe Putin would be deterred by a handful of American troops?
YES... the US in full involvement would kick Putin's ass back across the border so fast that he probably wouldn't survive it... Out of all the nations in NATO we are the only one that can... Without Germany or France the best NATO can hope for is a stalemate, on Ukrainian territory....
A few years back, Putin didn't like the low countries becoming part of nato and did the same thing, put a large amount of troops and tanks on their borders... We deployed three Striker brigades to the low countries and Putin immediately backed down...
He doesn't want a war with the US...
Putin the coward would, but he's not on the front line, is he?
Putin is dealing with Biden now. Think Biden has the balls to do anything like that?
We know where trumpturds balls are - not President Biden's.
History shows that Trump did not, history will show if Biden does or not. Any claims to know now, is just partisan ranting.
If left to do their job, that "handful of American troops" can do a significant amount of damage to an enemy. Especially when you consider LGOPS into the plans. The key is keeping the politicians out of the mix. They get involved things get fucked up. We saw that in Afghanistan.
So Putin is set to invade Ukraine on Trump's watch?
Xi is set to take Taiwan on Trump's watch as well?
Trump is the one that fucked up the withdrawal in Afghanistan and abandoned US citizens, green card holders, and special VISA holders? He was the one that made the US look weak in front of the world?
[deleted]
Wait--Biden HAS balls?
Who would have ever guessed?
I am glad progressives are keeping track of Trump's balls. Gives them something exciting to do!
Second year of Biden's term, and Trump is still to blame for everything bad and Biden is praised for anything good.
Can't wait for the midterms to shut the Democratic clowns down.
Where in this thread do you find anyone blaming Trump?
Try this:
Read the posts.
Thank you.
I did.
Then there was no need to ask about something so blatantly obvious.
Thank you.
Pay no mind. Some suffer from the WLB syndrome.
Ozzwald merely mentioned that Trump did not deal with Putin and that we do not know if or how Biden will deal with Putin. That is not blame, it is a statement of fact. He did not blame Trump for the Ukraine or anything else.
The blaming, if anything, comes from Ronin's sarcastic strawman. But clearly you would not presume that Ronin was blaming Trump.
So what is obvious is that you read what you want; even if it is not written. A great recipe for getting things wrong.
Uh, huh, sure thing. You must be right about everything.
Thank you.
You are clearly wrong about this.
[deleted]
Tone down on the trolling and the snark. That would be a good start.
Reread the question you asked me, then stop trying to change the subject.
Yes. Bigly...
Is that the disease where you apply my answers to a completely different question from the one I actually answered?
So you are admitting you KNOW Trump has the balls to take on Putin and you don't know if Biden does. That's the most honest thing you've ever said.
[deleted]
Trump's balls are in Putin's back pocket.
I find it amazing that so many progressive liberals always know where Trump's balls are.
Ya'll must have one hell of a network to keep up such an accurate awareness of where they are.
Whose turn is it today to keep track?
Tell Putin to stop showing them off then.
Nope, just the Russian propaganda network.
Same as yesterday, and the day before, Putin.
It is amusing you think (seems like you are joined by fellow liberals) Putin gives a flying fuck about Trump in any way. i guess that is what pushing insane Russian conspiracy does to y'all.
So you are using the Russian propaganda network to keep track of Trump's balls. Productive use of time! LOL
And yet, Putin isn't saying anything about it--just disgruntled progressive liberals braying about it.
Then why'd he want Trump to win in '16?
Please do join us in the current year.
Trump is no longer President and has zero effect on any American policies.
There is no reason for Putin to give a fuck about Trump now.
But is is always fun to see far-fetched theories coming from progressives.
The 2016 election was fixed?
Just think--in just 4 years we went from having an election rigged to having the most secure election ever!!!
It's a miracle--and we didn't even have to actually DO anything differently!
It is truly amazing, but don't forget, Biden says the next one is questionable because they didn't pass his "voting" bill.
Funny how that works AFTER Democrats lose--or know they WILL lose.
I guess we can call it Biden's big lie!
Ultimately anyone who claims that a presidential election is or will be rigged is talking bullshit unless s/he can deliver credible evidence that the results of the election do not represent the constitutional votes of the electorate.
Partisans are trashing the CotUS by abusing impeachment as a partisan weapon and this unsubstantiated nonsense about rigged elections. The CotUS is demonstrably a brilliant document but it does rely upon agents with some integrity ... that is long gone.
If Biden engages in a lying campaign after losing his reelection and works his supporters up into a frenzy over their votes being disenfranchised and tries to coerce officials, legislators and tries to suborn Harris to violate the CotUS all with no evidence then yes, that would be a Big Lie for Biden.
But that would be lowering our standards to theirs. We can be better.
Now wait a minute. You think it is unfair for 'them' (basically the planet) to deem Trump's post election loss lies and actions as his 'Big Lie'?
Has 'My Pillow' guy Lindell finally delivered the killer evidence that shows the election was fraudulent?
You are free to assume whatever you want. I'll trust that others can read and understand what I actually wrote.
I have no idea--ask him.
Yeah, you wrote this:
Thus I asked you a question which you ran away from:
You cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge that the label 'Big Lie' is an appropriate label for Trump's post-election-loss lying campaign?
After all, Texan, Trump repeatedly lied for two months as PotUS and continues to spew the same lie even today. If that historically unique act cannot be legitimately and fairly viewed as a Big Lie then what do you think would constitute a 'Big Lie'?
I hope one day you learn what the difference between someone deigning not to answer you with running away is.
Thank you.
Amusing how some people still keep trying to throw Trump into this even when they know he is no longer even president! This is strictly Biden's soiree whether they like it or not.
I used to find it mildly amusing.
Now it is just a worn-out tactic to derail debates.
I am not even sure some of our readers know that Trump isn't President any longer.
the Low Countries are nowhere near Russia's borders. You might want to learn some European geography before commenting
Yeah sure, the European low countries.... And when you put Low Countries into google or pretty much any search engines it defaults to the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium.... They are the most well known....
You think they are the only ones?
Need to brush up on your eastern Europe/Russian history, the Russian Low Countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania...
And it's pretty clear to most who I was talking about... So I guess most already have that knowledge and understood...
Have a nice day...
I have never seen a reference to the Baltic states as the "Russian Low Countries". Perhaps you can provide a link or reference.
With all the BS commentary aside the reality of it is this is Goddamn serious business and my thoughts are with my nephews and their buddies currently serving with the 1/87th, 10th Mountain Division. 1/503rd, 173rd Airborne.
With all the BS commentary aside the reality of it is this is Goddamn serious business and my thoughts are with my nephews and their buddies currently serving with the 1/87th, 10th Mountain Division. 1/503rd, 173rd Airborne.
So I take it you do not agree with people who believe our soldiers are eager to see a war happen? You feel this sort of analysis (comment #1, above) may be incorrect?
Anyone that was served and particularly if they have been in combat does not want a war.
100% agreement... Anyone that has lost family as well...
Krish, You need to understand the comment first before you comment on it...
War should always be the absolute last resort of failed diplomacy. Sadly it does not always work out that way and the leadership never asks the troops doing the fighting what they think. I survived Vietnam and the 1st Gulf and sure as Hell never remember anybody asking me. After Vietnam I certainly never wanted to see another war. I still have occasional nightmares that resulted from it.
The Biden administration is certainly ramping up the propaganda. Now the Biden administration has gone full-on Q anon with officially released conspiracy theories.
So, after Biden escalated the situation (on behalf of Europe) what happens if Putin decides economic sanctions are acceptable? The United States and Europe have revealed exactly what will happen in clear, precise detail. Now that the United States and Europe are preparing to impose preemptive sanctions on Russia as some sort of phony deterrence, the threat of sanctions has been weakened. Russia is going to be sanctioned whether or not Russia invades Ukraine. What does Putin and Russia have to lose, at this point?
Biden has plainly stated that Putin could park Russian T-72s and T-90s in Kyiv without concern that the United States and NATO will fight. NATO couldn't support a combat campaign for a week and the United States can't reposition men and materiel without letting the Middle East go to hell in a handbasket. If Russia is going to be sanctioned regardless then what does Putin have to lose?
Loss of life of a great number of Russians. (Have you forgotten how many Russians were murdered-- or maimed for life-- in their embaressing loss in Afghanistan?
In fact, many people attribute to the Russian's rising anti-government sentiment as a result of their horrendous losses during their Afghani war to be a keyfactor in the overthrow of their Communist government.
That's a cop out after the United States spent 20 years in Afghanistan and suffered over 20,000 casualties. That doesn't include coalition forces and Afghans who were killed and maimed. And now Afghanistan is back where it was 20 years ago.
Has Russia objected to Ukraine joining the European Union? Russia wants a guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO which isn't the same thing as the European Union. Not all EU members belong to NATO. And not all NATO members belong to the EU.
NATO was never in Afghanistan. NATO hasn't played a role in Iraq, Syria, or the Middle East. NATO is not supporting Israel. NATO is doing nothing about Iran, North Korea, or the insurgencies in Africa and conflicts in the Arabian region. NATO is not confronting China.
What is the purpose of NATO? And why would Russia be concerned about NATO while the rest of the world is not?
read the article head line and couldnt help but think , Poland , 1939.
How about more recently-- Putin's conquest and illegal annexation by force of part of The Ukraine? (Crimea).
Or, for that matter, major western countries allowing Hitler to march in to The Sudetenland...unopposed by the allies-- who were OK with Germany annexing it?
"Conquered"-- and annexed by Nazi Germany-- without the allies firing a shot?
for everything you have put forth , all i can say is history repeats itself ,
as for who will react ? i see history repeating itself yet again .
"Conquered"-- and annexed by Nazi Germany-- without the allies firing a shot?"
What allies? France? Britain? They were soon to be attacked themselves.
And the US didn't enter the war until Pearl Harbor.
i dont think the "Allies " what was the old league of nations were in any real position to do a damn thing , the entire world was gripped in a world wide depression , and early germany of the 1930s , appeared to have a way out of that depression .
those allies also didnt have the public support to get into another long drawn out war like they had just experienced and lost an entire generation to , they instead trusted statesmanship , but that only works if both sides can be trusted , and they found out one side could not be .
The same thing is being faced here , putin is claiming the long regional and ethnic connection of ukraine to russia , thing is , there are still those alive that remember the early 1930s and the horodore inflicted on the ukrainians by those in power in the Kremlin in russia under stalin , there is a reason ukrainians for on the side of the nazis and not the russians , i see no reason they should trust a different leader 3 or 4 times removed from that era
ask a Ukrainian if they consider themselves ethnically or culturally russian , but be ready to duck .....
Yep, see post #2.3.
"State Department spokesperson Ned Price said at a briefing that the U.S. publicized information about the plan to expose "Russia's destabilizing actions towards Ukraine and dissuade Russia from continuing this dangerous campaign and ultimately launching a military attack."
Where is this information?
The title of this article claims something that I haven't seen any information on, thus I have to flag it.
"A reporter for The Associated Press got into a heated exchange with State Department spokesman Ned Price and demanded evidence to support the administration's accusation that Russia is plotting an elaborate false flag attack against Ukraine. (Feb. 4)"
Did you miss "US alleges" at the end of the headline?
You still need proof to "allege" something; unless you are lying that is.
"Associated Press reporter Matt Lee grilled State Department spokesman Ned Price on Thursday in a clip that quickly went viral online due to the ferocity of Lee’s demanding that Price provide evidence to back up claims that he made about Russia.
Price claimed that the Biden administration has information that “Russia is planning to stage fabricated attacks by Ukrainian military or intelligence forces as a pretext for a further invasion of Ukraine.”
“Russia has signaled it’s willing to continue diplomatic talks as a means to de-escalate, but actions such as these suggest otherwise,” he added.
Lee was the first reporter called on at the press conference and he wasted no time going after the claims that Price made while demanding that he provide actual evidence to back up his claims.
Reporter: “It’s an action that you say they have taken, but you have shown no evidence to confirm that. [...] This is like - crisis actors? Really? This is like Alex Jones territory you’re getting into now.”
Wars are not only won in a sludge of mud and blood Vic. Have you considered that the State Department is just playing the same game that Putin's band of propagandists is. Surely such a well read individual as yourself is familiar with John Lyly.
Are you suggesting that the vaunted Biden Administration is lying to us about what Russia is doing?
Are you suggesting that this is a first for any State Department of any nation? Queensberry's rules do not apply in this situation.
I didn't suggest anything.
I asked what I perceived to be a fairly straight-forward, easy question.
I had no idea that it was so hard that it had to be ignored and deflected from!
My answer was direct, sorry (not really) that it passed over your head. I'll try again, I have no idea if it is a lie or not.
Of some interest:
False-Flag Invasions Are a Russian Specialty
Your answer, such as it was, was a mere deflection obviously.
Why is a simple answer to "do you think the Biden Admin. would lie about it" so elusive?
'Yes' or 'no' are conversation killers best saved for use on the whining.
I stated (I thought it was clear enough!) a SIMPLE answer--not a yes or no one. Reading helps.
But since NO answer is forthcoming, (typical dodge) I'll move on to discuss with someone who can converse coherently.
Your "answer" was a direct deflection.
You should be sorry for deflecting again.
You have never written anything to me that I couldn't understand.
Once again, "I have no idea if it is a lie or not." The only thing I am getting at is Putin has done this before and as an x-KGB guy will surely do it again.
Do. You. Think. That. The. Biden. Administration. Is. Lying. About. What. The. Russians. Are. Doing?
And your answer is that you don't know? You don't know what you think about it????
I know enough not to jump to partisan ordained conclusions.
And yet, unclear as to your very own thoughts.
Very interesting.
"Those who wish to appear wise among fools, among the wise seem foolish"....Marcus Fabius Quintilianus
The US never engages in False-Flag operations./S
Why would the US put forth that Russia is going to use a false flag showing Ukraine troops attack Russia? So that when Ukraine troops really do launch a preemptive strike against Russian forces the US will say it is all fake.
The human fuck up machine in the Oval office just might get the US involved in two wars at once. Think the US can take Russia and China at the same time?
The press is right to press the Biden administration about Russia's "alleged false flag operation". The last thing the US needs is another Vietnam; but this time involving the world's other two super powers.
[Deleted]
[Deleted]
I don't know why anyone would automatically reject this intel out of hand. In 2014 the Russian state media ran a totally fake story in Russia claiming that the Ukrainian army had literally crucified a Russian speaking child in the Donbas war zone in eastern Ukraine, apparently to whip up hatred of the Ukrainian government, and support for the war back home. Independent journalists went to the place where it supposedly happened and started asking around for something to report. Nobody living there knew what the hell they were talking about.
Putin isn't exactly what anyone would call honorable. He's a criminally-minded autocrat, and a false flag operation to justify an invasion is not beyond the pale for him.
Completely accurate or not, now that the intel is out in the open the potential for an operation of this sort has been nipped in the bud. Even if there was only a small chance of it being correct, that small chance has been neutralized by this public disclosure. If they were in fact planning this, then there's no way in hell they'll go ahead with it now. Isn't that a good thing?
In my opinion, the only common sense solution to this stalemate which will prevent it from exploding is for the Ukraine to reject NATO and promise not to permit Ukraine to ever join NATO provided Russia withdraws its forces from the border and agrees to maintain a peaceful mutual relationship. That will take America off the hook.
So Russia gets to blackmail Ukraine from becoming a member of NATO , and having Ukraine give up autonomous decision making of their own choosing?
Right now Ukraine is not a member of NATO , but they ARE an aspiring member , meaning they may or may not become members , that is for them to decide .
personally i think this has more to do with the economics and who is going to be in control of said economy , the people and government of Ukraine, or will Russia have a satellite they control? If Russia loses control over the trade and economics of Ukraine , and they are allowed to trade with whom they want , Russia is in a bad place then .
Personally i dont think what you think is the solution is going to happen , too much bad blood between Russia and Ukraine.
If we see another "Iron curtain " it will be one that the Russians themselves make , and this time ,many of the "buffer countries " have already chosen sides and the front is closer to Moscow than it was the last time .
It will be interesting to see where this goes. So what do YOU think should happen in order to solve this crisis? Obviously America doesn't frighten Putin.
While I'd love for America to be off the hook, I recognize that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and has the right to determine for itself whether or not it will join NATO without asking Russia for permission. I also don't think any agreement requiring non-aggression on the part of Russia is likely to be honored. Ukraine should act in its own best interests.
What I think should happen to solve this crisis is that Russia should knock it off. But I doubt that will happen.
Everyone stay in their own bloody countries...
The world has enough problems..without more fighting and squabbling...
You would think we would have learnt by now...
Don't kid yourself. Putin has plenty to fear from American power, and he knows it.
Putin is an autocrat and a risk-taker. He is going to push in every direction he can. If he goes too far, he will pay a very heavy price.
Despite how firm his grip on power seems, he may even fear internal forces attempting to replace him, and I'm not referring to the democratic opposition.
The western democracies cannot, and will not, acceed to Putin's extorionate demands.
What bothers me about this is that I believe that Putin feels that putting NATO on Russia's border is tantamount to when how America felt when Russia placed missiles on Cuba. And personally, I don't know how Americans can deny the similarity of the situation.
As well, whenever something like this happens, I think of a line from a Bob Dylan song. "When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose."
I don't believe that Putin views this as some sort of historical equivalent to the Cuban missile situation.
Putin's primary objective is to eliminate a democratic Ukraine on the border of his autocratic regime. His secondary goal is to recreate the Soviet Union/Russian Empire.
Well, Like I said, it will be interesting to watch how this situation unfolds. With Putin trying to maintain power on one hand and Biden having to counter being called "weak" on the other and being worried about the outcome at the midterms, it beats watching a movie. Of course, being independent of both those sides, I'm not committed to wanting a specific result. For me it's a kind of SuperSuperBowl without betting on either side.
President Biden doesn't have a Putin tramp stamp like trumpturd and won't bend over for him. God I'd love to know what Putin has on him.
Biden's already bent over for Putin... The Radio news was reporting yesterday that all they are considering is sanctions, much like Obama did, claiming that those will have the same effects as the ones did back then... (which didn't stop anything)
Putin is playing a long game, Biden is playing a short game... Sanctions have NEVER worked to effectuate policy of the type they want...
There is only one thing that will, the big stick...
By announcing that they are only going for sanctions, they have essentially given him the time to do what he wants to do, which is subvert Ukraine off the path to Nato membership... If Ukraine stays the path they WILL become a full member of NATO... That ends the discussion right there his only option would be military at that point...
You think it ends with Ukraine? Georgia is next... Not much he can do about Finland or Sweden though...
He is hoping he can subvert Ukraine before they finish the MAP... What needs to be done is show him it is a done deal already... And they won't do that... Haven't got the balls for it...
Hence he has already bent over for Putin...
"Biden's already bent over for Putin..Hence he has already bent over for Putin..."
Nope. Not true.
I know who has the balls and it's not armchair warriors.
I don't take the word of armchair warriors.
{chuckle}
That is what they are saying so that they can deny what Putin is saying. You know how this game is played. We've been here before. There is a massive build up of arms going on in Ukraine itself. There is a massive build up of NATO troops in nearby NATO countries. If Putin moves some troops across the border, but only into the Donbas then there will be sanctions. If there is a full scale invasion it will be met by a competent and ready NATO force.
NATO is going to war for a non-aligned nation?
That's not what Biden is saying in the news reports this morning... He is saying any crossing of the border will result in sanctions.. Yes there are nations girding to offer resistance, particularly those with independent security treaties with Ukraine... Right now I have no actual confirmation but I suspect that the Ukraine does not want US troops, (except for those there to assist with NATO integration) in the country... Germany has come out with Biden on cooperation, just announced this morning, that is a good sign for Ukraine..
Yeah, to anyone that has been following and understands the steps of escalation we are seeing, we have been here before... The decision point hasn't been reached yet, and within 8 hours we could have two entire divisions within the country... Romania and Bulgaria are ready to move and Germany would have it's armored units in country on 12 hours... Poland would be providing air support as well as the rest of NATO until they could get their troops into the country as well...
Poland has Belarus to concern itself with as well, don't expect Russia in that scenario to limit themselves to just the Ukraine...
Anything beyond the current buildup is major speculation at this point... Historically since the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia has backed down from a fight especially when it comes to the US...
They may have gotten themselves to the point where they think they have a chance....
But when it comes to the Ukraine, NATO can go two ways, Cut them loose and take away their MAP, which in my opinion would cause serious problems with the smaller NATO members, or keep going along the line they are and follow the MAP with Ukraine becoming a full member when it is complete...
Russia wants the first, Ukraine wants the second...
The lines have already been drawn...
Ukraine is not a non-aligned nation.. They are under MAP, (Member Acceptance Plan) which when complete they will automatically become a full member nation... Right now as it stands they are not, but there are agreements in place... AND as part of the MAP the NATO member nations get to vote on military assistance to a MAP nation under attack, and with a simple majority vote NATO goes into action...
You mean they applied for membership. Good luck with that.
Putin is going to make a move and nobody outside of the Ukrainians is going to respond with military force.
The short answer - NATO doesn't want Putin playing in their back yard. They also don't want a strong Putin and a rise of the former Soviet Union. Giving Ukraine to Russia also sends a signal to China that the US is weak and they can make their play for Taiwan.
That's all theater and political chess.
I don't disagree with anything else you posted...
I have to respectfully disagree with you here Brother, Putin moves into the Ukraine with Russian forces, NATO will be forced to defend, not because they have any obligation to do such, becasue there are several other military assistance treaties between NATO over there which have several NATO members as signatories along with the Ukraine.... NATO will be drawn into it very quickly as the other treaties are acted upon in defense of Ukraine and those nations start calling on NATO to uphold it's obligations...
As far as Ukraine and Nato, you can read about the state of affairs here ... Clearly Ukraine is too far along the path to abandon now...
That is the line in the sand, the same as it was for the Low Countries when they joined, Russia rattled it's sabre, and Bush put troops into all three of those countries according to NATO agreements making it clear that any incursion would be a military attack against NATO...
And it looks like those Eastern NATO countries are holding the US to their NATO obligations too.
Putin doesn't necessarily "have" anything on Trump. They are ideological soulmates. Putin is a neo-fascist autocrat, which is what Trump aspires to be.
If Putin does "have" something on Trump it is most likely related to Trump's lengthy history of laundering money for the Russian oligarchy.
You mean it will be met by the US. No US, and NATO will sit and watch Putin take Ukraine. NATO couldn't even handle a third world shithole like Libya by itself. The US had to do all of the heavy lifting.
Afghanistan already sent that signal. Which is why both Russia and China are escalating the military situation with both Ukraine and Taiwan.
As for NATO, who gives a fuck what they want? They are supposed to be able to stand on their own w/o the US. They have proven repeatedly they cannot. NATO should be handling Russia, so the US can take care of China.
Instead we are talking about sending troops to NATO countries bordering Ukraine. Xi will be dancing the second that happens; as the US will not have the forces to stop China from taking Taiwan. Taiwan falls and the US will need to bolster Japan, South Vietnam, and every other Pacific ally militarily against China.
Or do you really think the US can fight a two front war against Russia and China?
Ah, South Vietnam is now just plain Vietnam, and if I believe what I've read, they fought a pretty hard war against China and won... Vietnam wouldn't be asking us for anything...
The problem for China is getting their troops across the Strait to the island, can only be done by boat or airplane, the only bolstering needing to be done is move another carrier group off the island... The Chinese would have a very difficult time crossing that gap....... Not impossible but very difficult...
As long as it doesn't go nuclear, and doesn't involve ground troops against China? Yes, absolutely...
We shall see i suppose .
the troop movements on either side do not really concern me , thats like moving chess pieces on a chess board .
what i would be watching is what particular weaponry those troops have .
now they start moving in some ground launched cruise missles and other things and things could get REAL interesting real fast and that would get everyones attention , especially if they get sent into former eastern bloc nations formerly under control of the kremlin .
The kremlin didnt like the last time those were on the european continent , and couldnt wait to go to the negotiation table back in the 80s . they didnt really mind them in england or sicily , but on the continent they were sweating and started squawking .
Actually, the war with China was more about the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia who had been attacking Vietnam border towns and were backed by China. Vietnam did a half-hearted invasion in 1977 or 1978 and captured a number of Chinese, it wasn't until 1979 that Vietnam did a full-scale invasion of Cambodia when China was very distracted. They were in Phnom Penh in two weeks. The Chinese did punitive raids against the Vietnamese in Vietnam but did engage in all-out war and they couldn't kick the Vietnamese out of Cambodia where the Vietnamese destroyed the Khmer Rouge and stayed in Cambodia until the late 1980s.
Yes, the Vietnamese are damn tough and will put up a strong fight against anyone, just ask the French and US.
Thanks for the details Kav, yes they are damn tough and are not afraid of anyone...
NATO is going to take on that massive force Putin has assembled? Do you realize how big a war that would be? In Russia's back yard?
That may be what some might want Putin to believe, but I don't think he buys it.
From Putin's perspective, the Ukraine and other states that broke away from Russia are no different from when the southern states seceded from the US in 1860.
We shall see.
If you take the time to research the current military power of Asia countries you'll see that Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia all have large, modern and powerful militaries. Are they the size of China's, no they are not but if they all aligned themselves against China they are more than capable of giving China a bad bloody nose.
This is without Taiwan or India.
Goggle ''Global Firepower'' for an in-depth look at each countries military strength with a specific number in the army/navy/air force and corresponding equipment.
I'd be surprised to see it.
As the White House insists Russia could invade Ukraine at anytime, President Biden and the German Chancellor used their remarks at a joint press conference today to talk about...climate change.
Maybe both countries should see what they can do for each other instead of against each other.
Under current circumstances i agree , some things are all too predictable IMO, but it doesnt take long to deploy a squadron of GLCMs into a country , question would be since they can be both conventional AND nuke , which would they be ? and once there , they disperseout into the countryside to be hunted .
i was there all those years ago when it was done ( to quote Elrond slightly) and know just how fast it can go from an idea to an operational reality .
I look at this as a situation between Russia and the Ukraine.
That's a novel concept that existed in history, and died when WWII was finished right along with the America first movement....
So do I and their actions are counterproductive for both of them.
Reporter: "Would you commit today to turning off and pulling the plug on Nord Stream 2?"
Chancellor Scholz: "We are acting together. We are absolutely united, and we will not [be] taking different steps and they will be very, very hard to Russia."
http:// hill.cm/FSJQ3Fk