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The failure of feminism

  

Category:  Op/Ed

By:  vic-eldred  •  2 years ago  •  77 comments

The failure of feminism
“We have been told that if we spoke out against her inclusion into women’s competitions, that we would be removed from the team or that we would never get a job offer.”

This past Thursday University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas made history (in a demented way) by being the first transgender woman (guy) to win a NCAA women's swimming competition in Division 1. There were no cheers for his shallow victory. It was a terrible day for women. Then again if we adhere to the ideology of the left, transgenders have rights. It's always important to extend more and more rights even if we have to take away the rights of others.

On that very same day, 16 members of the Penn Women’s Swimming Team sent a letter to the University of Pennsylvania as well as the Ivy League asking them to refrain from suing the NCAA over its new "Athlete Inclusion Policies" that would bar Lia Thomas, formerly known as Will Thomas, from participating in the NCAA championships. 

A portion of that note reads as follows:

Most important to us is that Lia’s inclusion with unfair biological advantages means that we have lost competitive opportunities. Some of us have lost records. But even those that swim different events than Lia or were not in contention to make the Ivy Championships, we stand by our teammates who have lost out. It has often felt like Penn, our school, our league, and the NCAA did not support us.

We have dedicated our lives to swimming. Most of us started the same time Lia did, as pre-teens. We have trained up to 20 hours a week, swimming miles, running and lifting weights. To be sidelined or beaten by someone competing with the strength, height, and lung capacity advantages that can only come with male puberty has been exceedingly difficult.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/her-rankings-have-bounced-from-462-as-a-male-to-1-as-a-female-16-lia-thomas-teammates-sign-letter-asking-penn-not-to-sue-ncaa-bar-thomas-from-competing

The question I have is where are the so-called "feminists?"

Calling attention to abuse, violence and oppression is something they once claimed to do, but these days, when it comes to the special transgender group, they’re more than willing to throw other women under the bus.

The abject failure of the feminist establishment is now undeniable.

 


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  author  Vic Eldred    2 years ago

We have feminists right here.

Nothing to say about it?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
1.1  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 years ago
It has often felt like Penn, our school, our league, and the NCAA did not support us.

Please name the 'feminists' who you hold responsible in those organizations. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.1.1  JBB  replied to  Dulay @1.1    2 years ago

Do note that this subject is being discussed as the author has so conveniently proven himself...

"Women are not even talking about it", is a LIE!

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dulay @1.1    2 years ago

I hold every "feminist" who remains silent as part of the problem.  Supporting a transgender male competing in a woman's sport is an act of misogyny.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @1.1.1    2 years ago
"Women are not even talking about it"

Where did you get that line?

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
1.1.4  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.2    2 years ago
I hold every "feminist" who remains silent as part of the problem. 

Name one Vic? You quote their letter yet insist on adding your own criteria of blame. THAT's the only misogyny I see here. 

Supporting a transgender male competing in a woman's sport is an act of misogyny.

First of all, either Lia Thomas is transgender OR male: PICK ONE. 

Secondly, the new “Athlete Inclusion Procedures” that the letter support are to blame, NOT unnamed feminists. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dulay @1.1.4    2 years ago
Name one Vic?

I have only seen one Feminist come forward to condemn it.  How about you?  Are you up to defending women's sports?


First of all, either Lia Thomas is transgender OR male: PICK ONE. 

That's too easy: He's a castrated male.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
1.1.6  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.5    2 years ago
I have only seen one Feminist come forward to condemn it.  How about you? 

First of all, you still failed to name ONE feminists who you think is responsible for this alleged misogyny. 

Secondly, you must be intentionally ignoring who the women are behind the letter to Penn. Do some research and get back to me. 

Are you up to defending women's sports?

Your seed isn't about 'women's sports' Vic. It's about SOME cis women demanding certain standards for women participating IN sports. 

I defend women's sports by supporting them. 

That's too easy: He's a castrated male.

So, your position on that isn't in agreement with the 16 athletes that signed that letter either. 

Since you disagree with so much of their stated position, why not just write an Op/Ed about YOUR position on transgender athletes rather than use them as a facade? 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.1.7  Jack_TX  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.2    2 years ago
Supporting a transgender male competing in a woman's sport is an act of misogyny.

This should be obvious.  But we live in bizarre times.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.1.8  arkpdx  replied to  Dulay @1.1.4    2 years ago

Lia Thomas is male. He was born male and will continue to be male until the day he dies . Growing boobs and having his genitals turned inside out and wearing makeup an dresses does not change that fact. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.9  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dulay @1.1.6    2 years ago
Your seed isn't about 'women's sports' Vic. It's about SOME cis women demanding certain standards for women participating IN sports.  I defend women's sports by supporting them. 

I'll correctly take that as a NO.

In other words you believe women must give up rights to the transgender group.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
1.1.10  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.9    2 years ago
I'll correctly take that as a NO.

As always, despite all evidence to the contrary, you take it any fucking way you want. 

In other words you believe women must give up rights to the transgender group.

As usual, your interpretation is founded on nothing but fantasy. 

Don't try to put words in my mouth Vic. 

What 'transgender group' are you talking about? 

Oh and BTFW, you STILL haven't answered my questions. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.2  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 years ago

How would you know what is discussed outside the far rightwing bubble? Obviously you have no idea...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @1.2    2 years ago

I don't see any feminists standing up for women's sports. Do you?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.2.2  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.1    2 years ago

Yes! If you Google "Trans Sports Debate" you will find many articles and online discussions across all media regarding the controversy...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @1.2.2    2 years ago

Deflection.

You are either for or against women having rights.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2  JBB    2 years ago

In reality there is a huge debate currently brewing in the feminist and LGTBQ communities about exactly this. So, saying nobody is discussing it is a flat out lie...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @2    2 years ago
In reality there is a huge debate currently brewing in the feminist and LGTBQ communities about exactly this.

That would be interesting.

You can stand up for women's sports and be woke at the same time.  You see, there lies the rub.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.1.1  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    2 years ago

You do not know what you are talking about and are merely trying to score political points with knuckleheads and throwbacks. Pathetic stuff...

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.1.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @2.1.1    2 years ago

So your answer to Vic's question is NO.  You cannot stand up for womens sports and be woke.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.1.2    2 years ago

No, they are woke and in this case women must give up rights to the transgender group.

Only one of them here stood up for women.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.3    2 years ago

Who did?  I missed it.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.5  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.1.4    2 years ago

Post # 4

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.1.6  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.5    2 years ago

Thanks.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1.7  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2.1.6    2 years ago

I gave her credit while all the others here proved my point.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
2.1.8  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1.7    2 years ago

Neither you nor anyone else has proven your 'point' Vic. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
2.2  Jack_TX  replied to  JBB @2    2 years ago
In reality there is a huge debate currently brewing in the feminist and LGTBQ communities about exactly this.

Setting aside the obvious question "how is this even a debate?", has this debate generated any national attention in mainstream media outlets?  

Who are some of the prominent feminists who have stepped forward to argue against this idiocy?  I'd love to know whom to support.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.1  JBB  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2    2 years ago

Google "Trans Athlete Debate" and you will find there are numerous serious articles about it...

I can't make you look outside your info bubble.

Contentions nobody is discussing this are lies...

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2    2 years ago

JBB posted an article from CNN.  I'd say that's mainstream.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.3  JBB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.2    2 years ago

Thank You! There is right now a major publc debate going on between women athletes about women's athletics and yet these old rightwing men mentally barricaded in their far rightwing bubbles keep on insisting women are not even discussing it. That it is only those who think just like them and only in far rightwing media. Try explaining that kind of thinking. I give up...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.4  JBB  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2    2 years ago

Do you really think no feminist female athletes publicly oppose competing with trans women?

Think about it. Now explain how that could be.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.5  JBB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.2    2 years ago

Every day now I see more disconnected far rightwing bitchfests about how nobody in the mainstream media talks about the very things that every single news outlet actively covers!

How do they know? The can't in a RW bubble!

They are ate up with manufactured outrage...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.6  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @2.2.5    2 years ago

Obviously all can see where you stand.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.2.7  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.2    2 years ago

CNN is not mainstream, nor are the sick values being put for by radical left.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
2.2.8  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.2.7    2 years ago

Is Fox News mainstream?  What is mainstream? 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
2.2.9  Jack_TX  replied to  JBB @2.2.4    2 years ago
Do you really think no feminist female athletes publicly oppose competing with trans women?

And yet you cannot name even one.

I'm curious as to why nobody seems to listen to them, and why the ones we do hear about report threats and intimidation to secure their silence.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
2.2.10  Jack_TX  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.2    2 years ago
JBB posted an article from CNN.  I'd say that's mainstream.

Where was that?  

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
2.2.11  Dulay  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2.9    2 years ago
And yet you cannot name even one.  I'm curious as to why nobody seems to listen to them, and why the ones we do hear about report threats and intimidation to secure their silence.  

The seeded article names one.

 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.12  JBB  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2.9    2 years ago

Tessa White trans veteran and former OKCPD.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
2.2.13  arkpdx  replied to  JBB @2.2.12    2 years ago

He said a female athlete not a pretend female. 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.14  JBB  replied to  arkpdx @2.2.13    2 years ago

He asked sbout feminists. Tessa White, BTW, opposes trans women in women's athletes and is at the center on a heated ongoing online debate for it. The fact is that many women including feminists and frmale athletes are also opposed to trans women competing in women's athletics. The false pretext that none are defies reality and logic. I can't make you look outside your bubbles but if you do you will find out. Can you handle the truth? Or, not...

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.15  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  arkpdx @2.2.13    2 years ago

Key word being athlete. Tessa is not an athlete.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.16  JBB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.15    2 years ago

Again, you don't know what you're taking about.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.17  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @2.2.16    2 years ago

What does she compete in?

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
2.2.18  sandy-2021492  replied to  Jack_TX @2.2.10    2 years ago

If you click on JBB's name in his comment, you can see a list of his articles.  I don't like to link directly to other's articles in discussions, as it directs traffic away from this one.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.19  JBB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.17    2 years ago

Marathons...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.20  JBB  replied to  sandy-2021492 @2.2.18    2 years ago

They refuse to peek outside their bubbles...

Can you explain how a furious debate about trans women in women's athletics could be raging without any feminists participating?

Yet, that is vic's article's false main premise!

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.21  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @2.2.19    2 years ago
Marathons...

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif     jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

So does my neighbor. Hardly someone who really matters in the big picture world. Just likes to run for enjoyment and to stay in shape. Probably much the same with your example.

But I'll concede. I guess it's a big deal in some circles.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.22  JBB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.21    2 years ago

If you look you'll see you have dug yourself a deep hole. Maybe you should quit digging...

Your pickaune pusillanimous argument failed.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.23  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @2.2.22    2 years ago

Only in your mind. Much like your opinion of Ms. (**cough**) White as an athlete whose opinion matters not to the multitude.

And is she a hypocrite? Does she run marathons in the women's category or men's

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.24  JBB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.23    2 years ago

The fact remains that the debate about trans women competing in women's athletics rages among feminists, trans communities, women athletes and women across the spectrum...

Your sniping denials accomplished nothing!

But then again, you comments never have...

Can you even explain your vague contention?

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.25  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @2.2.24    2 years ago
Can you even explain your vague contention?

You gave a rather shitty example. Period. If that is the best you can do, perhaps you should give it a rest. 

Now, answer my question. Does she compete with the women or the men in her athletic endeavors? Should be easy to answer for someone as knowledgeable as you about her life.

Thanks

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
2.2.26  JBB  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.25    2 years ago

No, you are just being argumentative. Go on...

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.27  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  JBB @2.2.26    2 years ago

Which is it?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
2.2.28  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @2.2.25    2 years ago
Does she compete with the women or the men in her athletic endeavors?

He did say she "opposes trans women in women's athletes" so I would take that as she would not compete with women in athletics.

I think the debate here over man vs woman obfuscates what this is really about, as the seed points out, the "unfair biological advantages" that a transgender woman who grew up as a male would have over women who did not get exposed to male hormones and testosterone. That's what the crux of this is, not so much transgender rights but whether or not we allow unfair advantages in competitive sports. Most sports have banned steroids and growth hormones because of the unfair advantage that can have, it's the reason why there are so many asterixis in the record books now for baseball.

Couldn't many baseball players have rightly said "Most important to us is that Barry Bond's inclusion with unfair chemical advantages means that we have lost competitive opportunities."

So, as a feminist and progressive I believe transgender persons should be allowed to compete, but only in leagues that allow doping. If you watch any professional wrestling you'll see lots of both guys and girls who may have used performance enhancing drugs, but because they're scripted no one is complaining about being unfair.

If you were angered by Russian Olympians who were caught doping and felt that gave them an unfair competitive advantage and they were rightly stripped of 46 Olympic medals, then you should also support women's competitive sports free of doping and/or persons who have been exposed to male hormones and/or testosterone either through nature or injection.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
2.2.29  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @2.2.28    2 years ago
so I would take that as she would not compete with women in athletics.

So she runs the marathons as a guy then..............

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
3  Hallux    2 years ago

I understand that Lia Thomas came 5th (tied) in the 200 freestyle. I guess all those manly aspects failed to perform.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
3.1  Greg Jones  replied to  Hallux @3    2 years ago

Maybe Will was starting to feel a bit of embarrassment and shame for his phony "wins".

To be sidelined or beaten by someone competing with the strength, height, and lung capacity advantages that can only come with male puberty has been exceedingly difficult.

Look how much taller this cheat is

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
3.1.1  Hallux  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1    2 years ago
Maybe ... (?)

I would not know. Unlike the author, I'm not looking to make a gratuitous partisan point in order to declare a movement an "abject failure".

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.2  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @3.1.1    2 years ago
a gratuitous partisan point

Correction: It is a salient point.

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
3.1.3  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.2    2 years ago

Vic is Vic and Hal is Hal

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.4  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  Hallux @3.1.3    2 years ago

And back and forth they go!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4  sandy-2021492    2 years ago

I will copy here a comment I made on this topic on another discussion.  It contains a quoted portion of the seeded article.

"I think a lot of the heat over Lia Thomas is just hugely overblown," Harper said. "Trans women don't transition for sports. We transition to be more like other women. And so as part of this therapy to be happier, healthier ... trans women will undertake this therapy and will have testosterone levels in compliance because it's for their health, not because it's has anything to do with sports."

It is not overblown.  Lia Thomas' performance as a male swimmer was nothing to write home about.  As a female swimmer, she's taking home national championships.  Just her greater wingspan, an irreversible result of growing up with testosterone, gives her an enormous advantage over cis-female swimmers that was neutralized when she competed as a man.  She ranked 462nd in the nation when swimming as a man, and won a national championship as a woman.

I'm glad Lia Thomas is happy as a woman, but she should not have been allowed to competitively swim as a woman.

Joanna Harper is a trans-female runner who has benefitted from the same biological advantages as Lia Thomas.  I question her ability to see this issue clearly.  We often prefer to think our successes are due to our own hard work and talent, and forget that we may have had advantages others have not.

Separate divisions for transgender athletes are a solution I could support.
 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4    2 years ago

Let me congratulate you for standing tall for what I believe a Feminist should stand for. 



 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.1.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Vic Eldred @4.1    2 years ago

All feminists stand for legal and social equality for women.  However, that does not mean that "feminists" are a monolithic group.  Some feminists do not consider trans-women to be women, and therefore do not consider feminism as fighting their fight.  Some feminists include trans-women as women, and believe that fighting for the rights of trans-women as part and parcel of feminism

I support feminism, and I support the rights of transgendered people to live their best lives.  However, I recognize the physical advantages trans-women have in athletics, and do not think they should be competing against cis-women in sports where they have a physical advantage.  This would include most sports, unless the contrary were proven with repeated studies.  Men and women already compete together in equestrian events.

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
4.1.2  Dulay  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.1    2 years ago
However, that does not mean that "feminists" are a monolithic group.

That simple truth renders the seeders question moot. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
4.1.3  author  Vic Eldred  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4.1.1    2 years ago
All feminists stand for legal and social equality for women.

No they don't. If they are not standing for women to have the right to enjoy women's athletic competition they are misogynists.

 
 
 
Hallux
Professor Principal
4.2  Hallux  replied to  sandy-2021492 @4    2 years ago
Separate divisions for transgender athletes are a solution I could support.

Sane Sandy!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Expert
4.2.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Texan1211 @4.2.1    2 years ago
There simply aren't enough to warrant a special, new class of athletes.

The same used to be said about women's sports - not enough female athletes for universities to bother putting together a team for them.

It's why I played Little League baseball, rather than softball, for 3 years.  "Not enough girls interested in a league", parents were told.

College women's softball is now a pretty big deal, with some schools' softball teams drawing larger audiences than their baseball teams.

With increased acceptance of transgenderism, the number of athletes may well increase.  If we give it a chance, we may be surprised.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
4.2.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @4.2.3    2 years ago

It wouldn't take long to watch a meet though.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
6  author  Vic Eldred    2 years ago

In Conclusion:

We find that based on this little survey of some NT members, that most on the left bow to the woke ideology even if it means diminishing women.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Professor Principal
6.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Vic Eldred @6    2 years ago
We find that based on this little survey of some NT members, that most on the left bow to the woke ideology even if it means diminishing women.

256

256

 
 
 
Dulay
Professor Guide
6.2  Dulay  replied to  Vic Eldred @6    2 years ago
In Conclusion: We find that based on this little survey of some NT members, that most on the left bow to the woke ideology even if it means diminishing women.

In conclusion, 'we' find that the author of the seed posited a statement that he can't support AGAIN. 

The author stated:

The abject failure of the feminist establishment is now undeniable.

Yet his conclusion illustrates that he is incapable of recognizing that his seed and comments diminish women. 

As 'we' all know, the author's use of the term 'feminists' translates at its root to left leaning WOMEN. 

Also, as 'we' can all see, the author uses the statement by some of the Penn women's swim team as window dressing to bolster his position, which is actually contrary to the position of the WOMEN he pretends he is standing up for.

In short, instead of letting those WOMEN speak for themselves, the author insists that 'we' substitute HIS posit for the position taken by WOMEN. 

All this despite the FACT that the some of the WOMEN behind the letter to Penn have been part of the 'feminists establishment ' for DECADES. Any curious person reading the seeded link can confirm that FACT for themselves. 

The author and all of his thumbs up buddies have to intentionally ignore the very existence of those long time members of the 'feminists establishment' in order to bolster their misogynist comments, especially because it means diminishing WOMEN.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Participates
7  Greg Jones    2 years ago

[deleted]

 
 

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