Trump Supporters Explain Why They Believe the Big Lie
Category: News & Politics
Via: john-russell • 2 years ago • 194 commentsBy: Sarah Longwell (The Atlantic)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
For many of Trump's voters, the belief that the election was stolen is not a fully formed thought. It's more of an attitude, or a tribal pose.
By Sarah Longwell Graeme Sloan / Bloomberg / Getty April 18, 2022Share
About the author: Sarah Longwell is the executive director of Republicans for the Rule of Law, publisher of The Bulwark, andhost of the Focus Group podcast.
Some 35 percent of Americans—including 68 percent of Republicans—believe the Big Lie, pushed relentlessly by former President Donald Trump and amplified by conservative media, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. They think that Trump was the true victor and that he should still be in the White House today.
I regularly host focus groups to better understand how voters are thinking about key political topics. Recently, I decided to find out why Trump 2020 voters hold so strongly to the Big Lie.
For many of Trump's voters, the belief that the election was stolen is not a fully formed thought. It's more of an attitude, or a tribal pose. They know something nefarious occurred but can't easily explain how or why. What's more, they're mystified and sometimes angry that other people don't feel the same.
As a woman from Wisconsin told me, "I can't really put my finger on it, but something just doesn't feel right." A man from Pennsylvania said, "Something about it just didn't seem right." A man from Arizona said, "It didn't smell right."
The exact details of the story vary—was it Hugo Chavez who stole the election? Or the CIA? Or Italian defense contractors? Outlandish claims like these seem to have made this conspiracy theory more durable, not less. Regardless of plausibility, the more questions that are raised, the more mistrustful Trump voters are of the official results.
Perhaps that's because the Big Lie has been part of their background noise for years.
Remember that Trump began spreading the notion that America's elections were "rigged" in 2016—when he thought he would lose. Many Republicans firmly believed that the Democrats would steal an election if given the chance. When the 2020 election came and Trump did lose, his voters were ready to doubt the outcome.
Some Trump voters looked at the numbers and couldn't make sense of them. How could so many more people have voted in 2020 than in 2016? A man from North Carolina, when asked why he thought the election was stolen, said, "There was 10 million more votes for Trump in this last election than he got in 2016. You're telling me that [Joe] Biden got that many?"
To the extent that Big Lie believers try to explain their skepticism over millions more people voting for Biden than for Trump, they often point to relative crowd sizes at rallies. As the man from North Carolina put it, "I personally went to Trump rallies that were filling stadiums, and then Biden can't even fill a freaking library. Like, no, it's not true. I don't believe it. Don't buy it."
Another common refrain is that the votes "flipped" in the middle of Election Night. Trump supporters went to bed thinking that their guy had won and then woke up to a different reality—which to them was startling and deeply suspicious. A woman from Georgia told me, "When I went to bed, Trump was so in the lead and then [I got] up and he's not in the lead. I mean, that's crazy."
Long before Election Day, the media had warned about a "red mirage" and alerted Americans to the possibility that Trump would have a large lead on Election Night only to have it dissipate as mail-in ballots were counted. But if you were watching Fox News, you probably didn't hear any of this. Instead, Trump, MAGA-friendly politicians, and conservative media outlets were priming voters to see a conspiracy.
Trump correctly assumed that the majority of the mail-in ballots that would be counted late at night would go to Biden. So he cast mail-in ballots as fraudulent almost by definition. The woman from Georgia told me that mail-in ballots were "a crock," without elaborating further.
Attempts to set the record straight tend to backfire. When you tell Trump voters that the election wasn't stolen, some of them tally that as evidence that it was stolen. A woman from Arizona told me, "I think what convinced me more that the election was fixed was how vehemently they have said it wasn't."
These voters aren't bad or unintelligent people. The problem is that the Big Lie is embedded in their daily life. They hear from Trump-aligned politicians, their like-minded peers, and MAGA-friendly media outlets—and from these sources they hear the same false claims repeated ad infinitum.
Now we are at the point where to be a Republican means to believe the Big Lie. And as long as Republicans leading the party keep promoting and indulging the Big Lie, that will continue to be the case. If I've learned anything from my focus groups, it's that something doesn't have to make sense for voters to believe it's true.
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robertreich.substack.com /p/the-republican-conspiracy-of-cowards
The Republican conspiracy of cowards
Robert Reich 4-5 minutes 4/26/2022
As Trump’s big lie of a stolen election began ricocheting across America in November 2020, Arizona’s Republican attorney general Mark Brnovich (pronounced “Burn-O-Vich”) spoke out forcefully on national television. He told the public that Donald Trump was projected to lose the swing state, and “no facts” suggested otherwise. (At the time I thought to myself “good for him. Maybe more Republican attorneys general will show some spine.”)
That was then. Recently, Brnovich — now running for Senate in Arizona — came onto Stephen Bannon’s far-right podcast with the opposite message: Brnovich said he was “investigating” the 2020 vote and had “serious concerns.” He went on : “It’s frustrating for all of us, because I think we all know what happened in 2020,” without explaining what he meant by “what happened.” (Bannon titled the podcast segment “AZ AG On Interim Report On Stealing The 2020 Election.”)
It would be bad enough were Brnovich the exception. But he exemplifies what’s happened to the GOP over the last 19 months. Republican politicians who initially told the truth have since then embraced Trump’s big lie in order to gain Trump’s favor (or avoid his wrath) in their 2022 races. (Brnovich launched his “review” of the 2020 vote in Arizona in response to a widely-ridiculed “audit” commissioned by Arizona GOP lawmakers.)
It’s the same story with J.D. Vance, Republican candidate for the Senate from Ohio, who initially told the truth about the 2020 election but then pushed Trump’s lie to curry favor with Trump — and was rewarded last week with Trump’s endorsement and $10 million in campaign funds from right-wing billionaire Peter Thiel.
It’s the same with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, who held on to his scruples for a few minutes after the January 6 insurrection — when he publicly criticized Trump and told House colleagues he’d urge Trump to resign — but then promptly did a one-hundred-eighty and traveled to Mar-a-Lago to display his total loyalty to Trump, even bestowing on his madness a jar of his favorite pink- and red-flavored Starbursts. (McCarthy has denied ever telling his colleagues he’d urge Trump to resign but was caught doing just this).
And the same for Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who initially condemned Trump and now won’t utter a negative word.
Up and down the ranks of the Republican Party, the new litmus test for gaining dollars, votes, and the coveted Trump Endorsement is to embrace the big lie that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. For the rest of us — and for posterity — it should be a negative litmus test for politicians who place ambition over principle, narcissism over duty, and cowardice over conscience.
How are Republican voters ever to know the truth when these toadies, sycophants, and unprincipled pawns repeat and amplify Trump’s big lie? Fully 85 percent of Republicans now believe it ( 35 percent of Americans overall believe it).
The Republican Party now stands for little more than the big lie — not for fiscal prudence or smaller government or stronger defense, not for state’s rights or religious freedom or even anti-abortion, but for a pernicious deception. How can what was once a noble party — the party of Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt — descend to such putrid depths, sowing distrust in our electoral system and in the peaceful transition of power that’s at the heart of democracy?
The real question — more in the realm of social psychology than political science — is how one profoundly sick, pathologically narcissistic man, who is obsessed with never losing, has been able to impose his narcissistic obsession on one of America’s two political parties? Which raises an even more troubling question: How can our democracy ever function when almost all Republican politicians are willing to sell out their oaths to the United States Constitution in order to kiss the derrière of this demented man? Why are no more than a handful of Republican politicians, such as Rep. Liz Cheney, willing stand up to this monstrosity?
This is how fascism begins.
"Trump Supporters Explain Why They Believe The Big Lie"
Because they're ignorant morons?
As opposed to educated or knowledgeable morons? You just love redundancy.
I just love those who follow me around and point out such nitpicky nonsense.
I don't think your comments are nonsense, they provide an important service allowing us to see how you think.
Who is 'us'?
Those that read your comments of course.
Everyone that is not "you".
Stop trying to make yourself the topic.
I see you brought some of the other members of my fan club.
Your imaginary "fan club" isn't the topic either.
DOTW and others are the ones making me the topic.
People only commented on what you wrote.
It is a little sad you think that makes you a topic.
You all need to stop making me the topic.
Once again, you are not the topic.
We are discussing serious things here.
I don't want to hurt your feelings but I assure you that the only one attempting to make you the topic is you and you seem to mention it daily. People responding to your posts does not mean they are making it about you. It also does not mean they are a fan.
Yet you continue to
Only in your mind.
Ignorant morons is not a redundant statement.
Get a dictionary.
Thanks, I have one.
Collecting dust.
Yet you continue
This country will NEVER get back to normal until Trump voters reject the Big Lie, publicly, and reject the one who created it.
We can go on this way forever.
Some never will reject it, that's just human nature I'm afraid. Hell, (and I know you hate the both sides bit but too bad) HRC not that long ago repeated her belief that the 2016 election was stolen from her and Stacy Abrams still has not conceded her loss for the Georgia governor race. Like I said, for some it's just human nature to refuse to believe.
I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you, more people are coming out stating that Trump needs to move on and look forward rather than rehashing the past.
There is no comparison between what Hillary Clinton said in 2016 and the Big Lie of 2020-2022. And it is inexplicable why people like you claim there is a comparison.
Did Hillary Clinton claim the election was stolen from her hundreds of times, on a mostly daily basis? Did she have rallies based on the belief? Did she go on many tv shows and make the claim? Did she try to expunge from her political party anyone that did not agree with her (Trump has publicly "disowned" Republicans who have openly rejected the "Big Lie") ?
So the important piece for you is what? Repetition? Volume?
All I was saying is that there are some people who will never reject the big lie, it's human nature. And then for an example I gave you HRC and Stacy Abrams who are also continuing their belief that their elections were not in fact lost.
It is ridiculous to claim that the "complaints" of Hillary Clinton or Stacy Abrams are on the same level of magnitude as Trumps truly constant bitching that the election was stolen from him. Just a couple days ago the talk show host Piers Morgan says Trump stormed out of an interview because Morgan told him the election wasnt stolen. The election was 17 months ago.
It's ludicrous to think there is any comparison whatsoever between them.
You mean Hildabeast didnt lose because of Russian disinformation?
It is always amusing that the people that rail against both sides do it are the same ones that rationalize it is ok when they do it because it is different when they do it.
the point was made and you just missed it is all.
The most important part was that she conceded November 9th just a few days after the election. Trying to compare Hillary's actions after she lost the election to Trumps actions after he lost is like comparing apples and orangutans. There simply is no comparison, and those who claim there is are clearly just desperate to find any justification for their monumental failure of a chosen leader. Sadly, these deluded dipshits are to far in to back out now, the sunk cost not allowing them to back off of their hilariously flawed position so they have no choice but to double down on stupid.
No, what's ridiculous is that you simply refuse to accept my main point in that SOME PEOPLE WILL NEVER FUCKING REJECT THE LIE. Do you understand now?
This is a true case of both sides fucking do it. Trump bitches and continues to bitch. HRC is stated on multiple occasions that the 2016 election was stolen from her. Stacy Abrams still refused to concede her loss in Georgia. Both fucking sides do it but you reject anything other than Trump. In this it really doesn't matter on the frequency of the bitching, it's a simple binary decision. Either you accept you lost or you bitch and call it stolen. One time or a billion times really doesn't fucking matter.
But I'm confident you will need to respond to this with another shout out as to how much worse it is that Trump is doing it. So go ahead, feel free. It's just too bad you cannot discuss things honestly.
Well, according to Hillary herself, she lost because:
16 things Hillary Clinton blames for her election loss (axios.com)
16 things Hillary Clinton blames for her election loss (axios.com)
and ?
Trump has yet to admit he lost.
Not true - Trump admitted he lost and Biden would be the next president on Jan 7th after Congress had certified the election. Late to do so but he did finally say it. Of course since then he's been non -stop with his belief that the election was stolen.
And?? What do you feel needs to be said to defend Hillary's litany of excuses?
If Trump says he lost, how will that magically change your life? How will it change ANYTHING????????????
What is this need to hear the words, and why are you fixated on it?
Don't YOU know he lost?
And WHY are you insisting on telling the lie that Trump never conceded when links have been provided to you and yours proving you wrong?
So you also are arguing volume and repetition instead of a simple binary answer of did he or didn't he. BFD.. They both conceded they had lost their election, him much later in the process than her. They both have come out after and stated that the election had been stolen from them. Simple binary solution...
And let's not ignore the primary statement in my first response. There are people who will never accept that their candidate lost the election. It's simple human nature that some people are just unwilling and unable to accept any outcome that doesn't match up with what they wanted /believed would happen. Oh well, in the great scheme of things they are of little importance TBH..
Did she concede the election? If so, she is not claiming it was stolen.
She has stated on multiple occasions that she won the "popular vote". Is she wrong?
Bullshit!
Hillary conceded the election to Trump. Trump, to this day, has refused to concede that he lost the election.
A number of current republican Congressmen have stated that they believe Trump won the election. Not a single democratic congressman has said that about Hillary after her concession.
On Jan 7th Trump realized the election had been certified by Congress and he was out of bullets to try and overturn it. Since Jan 7th he has been endlessly saying that he actually won the election.
Trump Michigan Rally: Voter Fraud Lies and Another 2024 ...
Apr 03, 2022 · Donald Trump on Saturday night managed to come up with a lie that may be even more absurd than the idea that he actually won an election he lost by an Electoral College margin of over 70, and a popular vote margin of over seven million. “We did win. We did win,” Trump said during his rally in Washington Township, Michigan. “And you know, if we didn’t, I’d be the first …
Dont troll my article.
Sorry, but video and FACTS prove you wrong, again.
Here ya go:
'I didn't win the election': Trump concedes 2020 defeat in video interview with historians (msn.com)
Do you ever really research things before making whacked-out claims?
Learn what trolling is and then get back to me when you have a firm grasp of it.
What else is he going to do? That's all he's got.
Of course it matters. People can move on from "one time" , and do. "A billion times" cannot be moved on from.
Tell us again that you are an "independent" or "moderate". Moderates or independents dont make the sort of incredible excuses for Trump that you make all the time.
When did he say he lost? I'd like to see that quote if you can produce it. If not then it's clear who is really lying here. Trump may have said Biden was going to be President because his minions failed to take the Capital and stop the certification, but I do not recall ever hearing him say he "lost" the election.
Trump is still saying he won. He repeated it at a recent rally and on a recent tv interview.
He waddled out of that interview when Piers Morgan told him his big fat ass lost.
Link has BEEN provided.
Here is a direct quote from the link:
Now, in the newfangled liberal language, maybe THAT isn't conceding he lost. For those still using standard English, it IS a concession.
The spin on this should be highly amusing!
I didn't win ... is this the same as 'I lost' or do you argue that just because he didn't use those explicit words (I lost) that he never admitted it. Because in most of the world, if you admit you didn't win that means the same as saying you lost.
Only in your mind is the statement "some people will never move on from it" is an excuse for Trump.
But it's also clear to me that what matters to you is repetition so go ahead have have the last word because you just are not worth my time.
I get what you're saying. Beliefs are hard to dislodge from some. However, I don't recall Hillary saying the election was stolen from her. She's made a lot of excuses of why she lost. She just can't admit that she got arrogant in the final days and stopped campaigning where it was most important
He continues to say he won. There’s nothing you can produce that will make that fact go away.
Trump has said he won the election (up until today) a hell of a lot more than the one time he said he didnt win.
If he says "I won" a hundred times and says "I lost" once, which of those two is the public perception of his belief on the topic?
Of course he does, show me where I tried to make that go away. I'm not making excuses for him, I've said several times in the past that he needs to move on from it and because of his continued push of that lie he's lost my support. But if you go all the way up to my initial post in this seed, what I said was that there are some of his supporters who will never move on and will never reject the lie, that's human nature.
She did say it in a couple of stops on her book tour. For the most part she doesn't repeat it but she did say it a couple of times.
And yes, IMO she spent too much time fund raising with the big donors and ignored much of the middle of the country.
Some people really seem to have a problem with the concept that would accuse their side of the same thing the other side does, even if that means they reject human nature.
First, there is a huge difference between "some people" and 68% of a political party who believe a lie. That by definition either makes them moronic gullible idiots or liars themselves.
Second, what Hillary was claiming, as well as many of her supporters, was that Russia had hacked the DNC during the election and released embarrassing emails with the intent to hurt the Clinton campaign, spent millions on fake social media ads, lies and rumors and surreptitiously helped Trump win the election which was welcomed by the Trump campaign. Those are irrefutable facts. But even so, Hillary conceded gracefully and moved on, she didn't try to inspire a mob of liberals and progressives to attack the capital the day they were to certify the 2016 election results.
Trying to equate Republicans baseless claims of widespread voter fraud with the actual proven election interference from an enemy foreign government is truly the height of stupidity.
show me where I tried to make that go away
“I didn't win ... is this the same as 'I lost' or do you argue that just because he didn't use those explicit words (I lost) that he never admitted it. Because in most of the world, if you admit you didn't win that means the same as saying you lost.”
Why are you trying to portray Trump as the guy who admitted he lost then? Why bother saying anything at all about it?
because of his continued push of that lie he's lost my support
Then stop muddying that notion by repeating some random statement where he slipped up and admitted that he didn’t win.
And he continues to not be president so who cares?
Not exactly but she did spawn the Russia Collusion hoax. But that's right. We aren't supposed to remember that little tidbit.
2.1.22 -- When did he say he lost?
2.1.26 -- I showed where he said 'I didn't win" which in most of the world is the same as saying 'I lost'
2.1.29 -- you replied to 2.1.26 with "He continues to say he won. There's nothing you can produce that will make that fact go away"
2.1.31 -- I replied "Of course he does (meaning he continues to say he won), show me where I tried to make that go away"
2.1.35 -- 'why are you trying to protray as the guy who admitted he lost then' -- mahybe because I showed in 2.1.26 where he did admit just that.
Does he continue to push the lie that he actually won the election? Yes he is still doing that. That you are not following what I have been saying is not my problem. This all started because I stated that some people will just never get over it and will never accept that Trump lost.
I think she included number 1 pretty late in the excuse tour. I seem to recall originally she, and the democrats, were blaming everything other than her.
Who cares? How about the people who want democracy to survive. Baseless and endless challenges to a free and fair election is an effort to destroy democracy.
Who cares? How about the people who want democracy to survive. Baseless and endless challenges to a free and fair election is an effort to destroy democracy."
The supporters of the moron want all states audited - even where the asshole allegedly won. .
Conservatives will make Joe a lame duck after November. I don't think he can win again no matter who runs against him, because his Administration is currently presiding over record-setting inflation, trying to "manage" a war in Ukraine, and struggling to get as many immigrants as possible in here despite being told by their own party members it is wrong.
The amount of melodramatic batshit that spews forth every time somebody mentions the name "Trump" is truly insane.
So the man is walking around contradicting himself....quelle suprise
Please, do tell us how a former President of the United States spewing nonstop lies about a stolen election is not having an impact on democracy. This from the party that won’t even hold their CPAC conference in this country. People like yourself are the ones trying so desperately to keep the frogs thinking that the water in the pan isn’t getting hotter.
The steaming pile of shit contradicts himself when he speaks more than a few sentences - sometimes even contradicts himself immediately - yet every word out of that fat pig mouth is lapped up by his supporters/enablers and is gospel.
Or option 3. Trump is not president and people are not keeping track of how many times he says he lost vs how many times he said the election was stolen. Most people really don't care, I am not sure why you and some others have such a problem believing that.
Because Trump can’t be controlled to do their bidding.
He scares them.
You first said "Trump admitted he lost and Biden would be the next president on Jan 7th" which was a lie.
Then you tried to cover for yourself by providing a statement Trump made in an interview in July of 2021 where he was talking about South Korea's Moon Jae-In and inadvertently admitted "when I didn't win the election, he had to be the happiest...".
I'm not surprised at your desperate attempt to move the goal posts, but it's really rather funny to watch. Better luck next time.
It affects your emotions. I'm sorry about that, but that's something you're going to need to sort out for yourself.
Most people don't care. Most people stopped giving a shit about whatever he does once he lost the election.
Because he doesn't matter. He's a desperate attention whore clinging on to whatever last vestige of relevance he's erroneously convinced himself he may have, but that only exists in his imagination and the imaginations of those pathetic souls fragile enough to be afraid of him.
If you are actually paying attention, you'll realize that Trump has almost no support left and loses more every day that goes by. That's been going on since the election and accelerated precipitously after Jan 6. Even the most staunchly conservative voices are saying openly that it's time to move on.
The only people who don't want to move on are the immature looney left end of the spectrum who cannot seem to exist without a Darth Vader style character to hate.
Democracy is surviving just fine with Donald saying the election was stolen. Elections have been challenged before and Democracy is just fine. The only ones that are really concerned are the media and its minions screaming the sky is falling and we have another constitutional crisis.
Please tell me how many elections have been altered and how democracy has been impacted because Donald is talking. Interestingly enough it only seems liberals hang on his every word as if it were fact to be disputed. Most people recognize he is often talking shit and take it as such and don't take it to seriously. Sort of like some of the posters here.. ..
Yeah, I don't take any of the shit you say seriously.
Not moving goal posts, you just refuse to believe that someone saying they didn't win is not the same as saying they lost. You are splitting hairs demanding that Trump say he lost. I don't fucking care what you think. It doesn't matter what else was in the interview, what matters is that Trump said he didn't win. If not explicitly saying the words you want makes you want to believe you won, then feel free to claim it. In the scheme of things, your "victory" here is as meaningless as Trump continuing to say that the election was stolen from him. So congrats, I just equated you to Trump. Feel better? Again, i don't care.
Most people don't care. Most people stopped giving a shit about whatever he does once he lost the election.
It’s mighty courageous for you to be talking for “most people”. Perhaps you should consider that Trump is still the absolute king of the Republican Party, with nearly all Rs in congress still publicly and subserviently bending to his will. They know he’s a liar, a uneducated buffoon, a con artist, etc., but he’s their chosen one. Perhaps instead of being the wise and observant arbiter of the nation, you are even more blind than the sheep attending his rallies.
Please tell me how many elections have been altered and how democracy has been impacted because Donald is talking.
I can’t wait to see your excuses when certain state legislatures decide that it’s time to circumvent free and fair elections by sending their own chosen electors in place of the ones who will not vote how the Republican Party wants them to. They are openly setting this stage whilst you and your friends here constantly run defense for them and pretend there’s nothing there.
Incessantly pretending there is no problem.
I wouldn't expect you to.
Oh, so it is going to happen because of what Donald is saying now even though it didn't happen after the election. Do you recall that when Donald won the democrats were trying to put pressure on the electors to vote against what people voted for. Did you have a problem then?
As I recall, there were seven states who attempted to send in false electors after the 2020 election. And none of them were accepted. Seems the rules in place worked. Last I heard it's still being investigated but I've not heard of any follow up on this. Do you have any information? And why do you suspect that the Democrats would be able to pull off a ruse like this in the future? Why would you want them to? Aren't the Democrats supposed to be the champions of free and fair elections? Doing this action would seem to go against a fair election pledge.
yea, yea, yea
Much stronger than a single yea, good job Tessylo.
Exactly
As I recall, there were seven states who attempted to send in false electors after the 2020 election. And none of them were accepted. Seems the rules in place worked.
The rules worked, which is why they have since changed the rules. Raffensperger was the one who stopped Trump’s attempt at stealing the election with his sane admittance that there were no voting irregularities of significance. His position no longer has that authority, now it is up to the state legislature. Do you think there was any other reason for them to do this other than to sway the next election?
Last I heard it's still being investigated but I've not heard of any follow up on this.
Gee, I wonder what news sources you seek out. /s
And why do you suspect that the Democrats would be able to pull off a ruse like this in the future?
Pull off what? What are you smoking? What D ruse are you talking about? I’ve said nothing that even resembles that statement.
[Deleted I suspect the former.]
That's all you got? How many lawsuits did she file?
If you cannot understand the difference between a figure of speech and a legal claim, you need to study the language more.
Who did the majority of "the people" vote for?
I made an assumption there. In 2.1.57 you said
In 2.1.61 which was my response to your 2.1.57, I assumed that as there are only two major political parties in this country and you mentioned that electors could be put in place that would not vote as the Republican Party would want them to, it's logical to assume you meant they would be voting as the Democratic Party would want them to. Now if that's not what you meant to say then you should have explained it better.
Barking up the wrong tree. All 2.1.16 showed was that yes, Hillary Clinton did in fact say she believed the 2016 election had been stolen from her. Nowhere in there did I go into what else she did so all your points mean nothing. You might be better off by showing me where in this seed I am actually defending Donald Trump. I'll give you a hint, I haven't . Pointing out things is not the same as defending someone. Like my comments to someone else, give it a fucking rest.
you mentioned that electors could be put in place that would not vote as the Republican Party would want them to
No, I said:
I can’t wait to see your excuses when certain state legislatures decide that it’s time to circumvent free and fair elections by sending their own chosen electors in place of the ones who will not vote how the Republican Party wants them to.
This has been widely reported on by news networks that report real news. It has probably never even been mentioned on Fox.
Do you recall that in a presidential election that's meaningless outside of the statement who did the majority of any state vote for.
yeah, I copy/pasted your fucking line in 2.1.71. You're splitting hairs.
is THAT how you think the electoral college operates? According to overall popular votes?
Hint: NO!
Nothing but a boatload of fantasy thinking.
Not one fact to back that insane thinking up.
Splitting hairs? You misread my comment completely. That is forgivable, acting like you understood what you clearly did not isn’t so forgivable. This isn’t a little thing, this is how democracy dies. The elector is dutifully bound to cast their vote representing the will of those they represent. When that elector is replaced with someone who is willing to not exercise that responsibility, then we no longer have a democratic republic.
Ok, so you brought up Raffensperger. What are the rules in Georgia now for selecting electors? Isn't Georgia still a winner take all state with the electoral college electors being selected from the party that wins the majority vote for president in the State of Georgia?
Riiight. Nothing to see here …
I did a quick Google search on your phrase. Seems that line was reported in USAToday and was said by Mark Lavin.
Then here's another tidbit on this..
Why are you trying to make it about me?
From the link above:
While Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger did make the rounds this week to promote Georgia’s new election reform law, there was one part of the law that he objected to.
Specifically, it’s the part that strips him of his chairmanship on the State Elections Board and gives that job to someone who would be appointed by the Georgia General Assembly.
“I report to the voters, and so if the voters don’t like what I do, then I pay for that at the polls,” Raffensperger said. “Now, you’re going to have an unelected board that are unaccountable to the voters, and so if something goes wrong, then who do you really hold accountable?
Why would this change have been made when it was? Because Republicans in GA wanted Raffensperger to do what Trump told him to and cheat. He didn’t, and so they stripped him of that authority entirely, to be replaced with a willing and unaccountable partisan appointed by a Republican legislature. This is as naked as corruption can get.
When did the popular vote choose a president?
And a reason from someone else...
I don't know the law in Georgia before the 2020 elections. Did they allow for a mass mailing of the absentee ballot applications or did they require the individual to request the application? Not sure it's all that important but as i said I don't know how the law was before the elections.
But a lot of this really comes down to supposition as we don't have all the information and must rely on what is reported in main-stream media. None of it is reliable.
And ALL you have to do to make your statement ring true is to simply provide some examples of what you claim will happen actually happening.
I eagerly await some link or other proof instead of wishful thinking and fantasy.
YOU are the one who brought up who the people voted for. So answer my simple question. Who did the majority of the people vote for?
Oh, some guy lost his job and is now whining about it.
STILL waiting something other than opinion and fantasy thinking.
For what YOU claimed:
And once again, ALL you have to do to give your post JUST a little credibility is to simply provide a link where this has actually HAPPENED. Show me even ONE instance of state legislatures circumventing free and fair elections by sending their own chosen electors in place of the others.
Since obviously and clearly you can not, this is all your little make-believe world.
Why ask me? YOU are the one that brought it up. Now you are squirming like crazy, terrified to answer the question that you brought up yourself.
Here I will, once again quote you, word for word.
YOUR words. If Hillary won the popular vote, your statement means that the democrats were trying to get the electors to vote for Trump. Is that what you were saying that the democrats were doing?
You see, to some folks, proving voter bona fides is voter suppression. Pretty messed up.
You REALLY need to better understand Presidential elections and the rolls of the Electoral College and the popular vote in them.
You may find this helpful:
Presidential Election Process | USAGov
Here you go Texan1211.
Trump’s fake electors: Here’s the full list
Groups from Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin all sent lists of so-called alternate electors to the National Archives after the 2020 election.
January 6 Committee subpoenas ‘alternate electors’ in seven states
Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states
What you need to know about the fake Trump electors
Prosecutors in multiple states are investigating false Electoral College submissions
And were ANY of those electors recognized and counted?
Did Biden win? Yes. And he was inaugurated, so I really don't see why people are griping about something that never happened.
My words were about individual districts that Trump had won and Hillary minions were trying to get the electors to change who they gave the electoral votes to, not the overall popular vote count. There is a big difference.
Terrified, really? Are you being obtuse on purpose?
In which state? When you're talking about the presidential election there is not a nationwide election, but a series of state/territory elections. Stop with the popular vote bullshit because it is meaningless when talking about a presidential election. And YOU are the one who brought it up in 2.1.69
The simple answer to who did the majority of the people vote for is meaningless. Popular vote is meaningless.
Is skirting the CoC like a hanging chad?
Looks like some of our liberal friends are struggling with the concept and workings of Presidential elections and the role the Electoral College plays in them.
Why, some even seem to think the popular vote is more important!
Yeah, I expect we'll hear a lot more about it in the buildup to 24. And another push to get more states into that interstate compact on electoral college votes. Have to admit, that's a funny one. There's no teeth in that agreement so any state could really not follow it if the vote doesn't go the way they want it to. It also doesn't answer current state laws where the state is set up to mandate that the electors must come from the party that won the state election under a winner take all provision. Won't stop the rhetoric from being loud over the 24 election cycle.
Tell that to republican leadership.
Does it matter? Do you have to succeed in robbing the bank to be charged with armed robbery?
You asked where it happened, and I showed you. Now you just need to man up and accept that you were wrong.
Now you are trying to walk back what you said. That is a very dishonest tactic.
Yes. Otherwise it would be ATTEMPTED armed robbery.
"Here you go Texan1211.
Trump’s fake electors: Here’s the full list
Groups from Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin all sent lists of so-called alternate electors to the National Archives after the 2020 election.
January 6 Committee subpoenas ‘alternate electors’ in seven states
Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states
What you need to know about the fake Trump electors
Prosecutors in multiple states are investigating false Electoral College submissions"
But that's all no big deal and nothing should be done about it according to certain posters, since they didn't get away with it, right?
Only a fucking moron would believe that just because they didn't get away with it, that's they didn't break any laws.
You're catching on. Kudos.
LOL! Not how it works.
I'm afraid it is. Perhaps you can elaborate on why you think otherwise?
"LOL! Not how it works."
"I'm afraid it is. Perhaps you can elaborate on why you think otherwise?"
I'm afraid IT IS NOT! Because the 'attempted armed robbery' didn't pan out they shouldn't be locked up for 'attempting armed robbery'?????????
[deleted]
WTF are you trying to say? I said if they weren't successful, they should be locked up for attempted armed robbery if it didn't pan out. You need to work on your comprehension skills or lack thereof.
Not at all, just trying to clarify to clear up your confusion as to what I meant.
Years from now it might be a footnote in a history book, and a few hundred liberals will still be saying the kids and grandkids of the people that never rejected the big lie need to publicly reject it. You have any idea how silly that sounds?
This country will never get back to normal until we deal with the TDS Epidemic in this country. Perhaps we can ask Pfizer to develop a vaccine.
Butt cream is of limited benefit.
I bought stock in butt cream in 2016. I made a killing.
“I bought stock in butt cream in 2016. I made a killing.”
At long last, right down the center makes perfect sense. Jim Jordan must also have been involved…if not, it would truly be a shocker…
Interestingly ..... Preparation H is made by ..... Pfizer.
johnpavlovitz.com /2022/01/05/all-americans-know-january-6th-was-an-insurrection-decent-ones-care/
All Americans Know January 6th Was An Insurrection. Decent Ones Care.
5-6 minutes 1/5/2022
We all saw it.
On January 6th, 2021, many of us watched it in disbelief in real time: the almost incomprehensible sight of thousands of people breaching the very seat of our Government: smashing windows, breaking through doors, setting off tear gas canisters, crushing outnumbered and overmatched Capitol police, and parading unimpeded through the chambers of Congress.
As the chaos unfolded, the questions kept running through the heads of incredulous news anchors and millions of good people:
“How is this happening?”
“Why isn’t anyone stopping them?”
“Where the hell is the National Guard?”
“Why won’t Trump say something?”
With each passing minute, it became more and more difficult to reconcile in our brains, how one of the normally-most-secure sites in America could have been so easily and so quickly overtaken. The scenes of scores of people in body armor and gas masks, desecrating monuments, rooting through offices, and crushing police officers were shocking and sickening.
Yet, as disturbing as the initial images were, what soon became apparent is that this was not some spontaneous display of misplaced outrage produced in a random moment—this was a thoroughly-planned attack on our nation; conceived, coordinated, and aided by Right Wing media members, Republicans in Congress, and by a sitting president.
This unthinkable act of violence was not only an inside job, but one whose genesis came from the very highest level of our public servants and brought us the width of an onion-skin from complete collapse. We were literally a handful of courageous officers, a few quick-thinking politicians, and one or two fortuitous seconds from an overturned election, an installed dictator, and an unrecognizable America.
But perhaps worse than all of all we have learned about January 6th, even more tragic has been the response to that day from people we know and love: an infuriating multiple choice of gaslighting, denial, and complete silence.
The dissonance in them since that day has been profound:
Blue Lives suddenly no longer mattered.
The Law and Order folks now had no use for either.
The God and Country crowd were seemingly able to easily discard both.
And in the days since that day, all their flag-waving histrionics, hand-wringing anthem outrage, and border-defending bravado ended up being nothing but fake news; all that America First chest-bumping and God Bless America showy piety they’ve peddled for four years, proved purely ornamental.
Because when the smoke dissipated and the arrests began and the phone records surfaced and the sheer scope and intent of this day were revealed—they didn’t give a damn.
In fact, if they’re honest, millions of our family members, friends, neighbors, and co-workers are likely only truly upset that the attack was not fully successful. Then, they would not have had to reckon with the evidence or hear the testimony or be accountable for any of this, because their candidate and their party would be controlling the narrative, silencing dissension, and preventing justice. And they would be winning.
It would be a small comfort to dismiss this all as mass ignorance: to tell ourselves the story that Republican voters (especially those we know and love) have been duped by complicit media and corrupt politicians who’ve leveraged their fears, disabled their critical thinking skills, and rendered them unaware of all that unfolded on that day in January—but we would be lying to ourselves.
They know.
Outside of a small percentage of the most deluded and unstable among us, they all know the reality of that day. They saw it, too. They could read the names on the flags surrounding dying officers, hear the familiar FoxNews rhetoric being screamed through the halls of Congress, and they could not avoid the Make America Great Again signaling saturating everything. They know who was responsible for this, what their intentions were, and what the stakes were to our nation. That is precisely why they have spent a year denying, defending, justifying or ignoring it: they wanted it—and that has struck the most vicious blow to our great national fracture, one that we may not be able to recover from.
The deepest wound is knowing that they know, and that it doesn’t matter.
January 6th was a coordinated attempt to kidnap members of Congress, overturn a free and fair election by its people, and install a president whose criminality is simply unprecedented and whose involvement was complete.
It was a threat to our sovereignty.
It was a rejection of our Constitution.
It was antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.
It was the opposite of patriotism.
It was an historic act of treason.
It was a vicious attack on democracy.
It was a partisan act of domestic terrorism.
It was a violent insurrection.
All Americans know this.
All of them.
Only decent ones care.
Only Americans who truly love this nation and what it stands for and what it aspires to and the people who call it home and those who wish to call it home are outraged right now, regardless of their political affiliation.
Everyone else—is simply revealing that they do not.
Very few are still admitting to being poutraged.
The rest know how ludicrous it is.
What happened on January 6th is far down the typical American citizen's list of concerns...kinda liike climate change
It's 1000 miles further down the list than climate change.
Like John said, decent people care. Sane ones do also.
Maybe you could supply a list about what decent and sane people care about so we can better meet your expectations.
Thank you
You don't meet the criteria
I don't recall saying I did, maybe that is why a list would be helpful.
Don't sweat it. You'll never make the cut.
Your understanding of how much Americans such as myself love this country, is almost childlike in nature. If wasn’t so fucked up for a grow assed man to be thinking that way it would be amusing. But it’s not.
It’s just a sad, hateful little message you love to spew at the expense of a lot of good Americans. Many of whom have already done a hell of a lot more than you ever will to support and defend her.
Weak sauce John, really weak sauce.
So your "love for America" justifies supporting the piece of shit known as Donald Trump?
Trump is a known pathological liar, crook, bigot, moron, and cheat. Not suspected, known.
You say you love your country, then denounce that piece of shit.
My love of my country wants him gone so he can stop damaging and ruining our country. And now we have to deal with the fact that millions of people support this demented and deranged liar. The people who "attack" Trumpism dont have to change, the ones that support it do.
Next time you want to see a real piece of shit take a look in the toilet before you flush it.
Your interpretations in this regard are complete meaningless due to an extremely chronic case of TDS.
You’re not rational on this topic. haven’t been for quite some time.
Too bad, you seem like a rather nice fellow other than that.
This may be the single biggest lie you may have ever told in your life.
If you wanted him gone, you'd stop obsessing about him every. single. day.
Like using ketchup over pasta and calling it marinara?
Will that really be all you need for proof that someone loves this country?
for years you've been telling us that no one pays any attention to Trump.
Last night at the Pennsylvania Republican Senatorial Debate all five of the candidates pledged their loyalty to Donald Trump and said the election was stolen.
So much for your hallucination that people are over Trump.
Cite them. What exact words did they say?
If you wanted him gone, you'd stop obsessing about him every. single. day.
[Deleted]
People gather in one place in support of something. For example, a wake; people gather at somebody's home after a death. People gather in a venue for a concert / play to support the performers.
It's protected under the 1st Amendment.
it was offered to have NG on site but was turned away by, wait for it - POLITICIANS.
What did they want him to say? That they shouldn't exercise their rights? That's pretty 3rd world shit hole thinking.
That statement is in NO WAY responsive to the question. Why did you bother?
NONE of the actions cited in the article are protected under the 1st Amendment. NOT ONE.
Utter bullshit.
VP Pence was evacuated from the SENATE chambers Jeremy. I have to wonder if you even understand that Mitch McConnell was the Leader of the Senate before [planning] and during Jan. 6th. If your claim had ANY credulity, the blame would have to be laid at McConnell's doorstep.
The House AND Senate reports on their investigation debunks that falsehood. Continuing to repeat that lie is an attempt to intentional gaslight NT members.
Cite the right you claim they were exercising Jeremy. Be specific.
The 3rd world shit is the violent attack against the peaceful transfer of power enumerated in our Constitution.
You really went out of your way for that didn't you. All that and you haven't proven anything I said wrong. Almost looks like you just stomped your feat screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG, YOU'RE WRONG".
Delusions of grandeur.
I refuted your comment with information right off the top of my head Jeremy.
Really Jeremy? I stated:
Since you insist that doesn't prove what you said is wrong, you should be able to explain what 1st Amendment rights protect perpetrators:
Be specific.
Your inability and/or unwillingness to actually address my comment proves that, Jeremy.
You failed to address my 1st Amendment comment and this:
Cite the right you claim they were exercising Jeremy. Be specific.
Here's your second chance. Please proceed.
You really need to keep conversations straight. Who are you quoting? You only quoted me twice. The rest, don't know who said that. Maybe the voices in your head.
Until you get your shit together, have a nice day.
You really need to stop posting obtuse bullshit.
It's stated clearly in my comment.
You only posted three sentences, the third was unworthy of being addressed.
I think that statement is an intentional deflection. See below.
Perhaps the voices in YOURS can get you back on the topic of YOUR own thread Jeremy.
You replied to the article that John posted. You stated that the reason that they weren't being stopped is that their actions are protected by the 1st Amendment. The actions cited in John's article include:
Again, YOU stated that those actions are protected by the 1st Amendment.
What clause of the 1st Amendment enumerates Constitutional protection for those actions Jeremy?
More obtuse bullshit.
You don't want to address your own comments so you try to make it personal.
You asked:
Again, the article you replied to cited specific actions:
For the third time, cite the right you claim they were exercising Jeremy. Be specific.
You're getting there. THAT IS NOT MY STATEMENT. You want to fucking quote me then make sure IT"S SOMETHING I FUCKING SAID. Again, Until you get your shit together, have a nice day.
You're getting nowhere.
My comment clearly stated:
Instead of answering my question, you AGAIN make a sad attempt at deflecting. It's embarrassing to watch.
Three strikes, you're out...
The person who wrote this article should consider rehab, smoking crack is really bad for you.
“When I went to bed, Trump was so in the lead and then [I got] up and he's not in the lead. I mean, that's crazy."
It’s only crazy when the candidate who you wanted to lose suddenly takes the lead. These same idiots wouldn’t bat an eye if Trump look the lead after they went to bed. If they would change the channel once in a while they would have been aware that this was the expected trend.
It is difficult to overestimate the ignorance of those who are MAGA- addled and attend Trump rallies or wish they could.
I hear they give out free popcorn and hats. That is way better than going to a rally to be put to sleep and possibly be trampled by people rushing to leave (all 10 of them).
Who even has the time to go to something as retarded as a political rally?
Trumps star, which briefly shined as brightly as an orange giant, has blown off so much hot gas that it has been reduced to a dim white dwarf.
It is fascinating to me how people who are obsessed with politics absolutely cannot comprehend how the vast, vast majority of Americans are barely interested.
It reaches the point of derangement.
You don't really see this in other areas of society. Obsessed NFL fans don't automatically assume that everybody else has NFL ideas "embedded in their daily life". If they start a conversation and somebody says "I don't really follow football, I just watch the Super Bowl every year", they accept that. They don't assume that person has been misled by some nefarious plot proliferated by HGTV.
BINGO!
The “resist movement” has scrambled a lot of liberal minds out there.
Having the pussy hat too tight sure didn't help either.
The sky screaming might have damaged some portions of their working brains.
“Having the pussy hat too tight sure didn't help either.”
And neither does a MAGA/Brandon hat, flag, banner, bumper sticker, monetary contribution, political endorsement, etc. etc. help anything.
It helps free enterprise and creates jobs. Thousands and thousands of them. As a matter of fact it is the best thing Joe has done for the economy since he was elected.
Damage due to possible oxygen deprivation, perhaps an aneurism ......
If they want to continue to live in a Democratic Republic, it's time they became MORE interested.
Meh.
That presumes that the USA will somehow cease to be a republic if people simply continue to go about their daily lives. I'm not sure there is any evidence to suggest that will happen. Look at local elections. Just because they have 5% turnout does not mean we stop holding them.
It also presumes that the more interested people become the more likely they are to agree with you, which is probably not the case.
I find it interesting to hear people complain about how more people should be more interested in politics and then scream lunacy like "fascism" when the elections don't go their way and their particular brand of politics is soundly rejected.
Meh.
My comment does not presume either.
Then do tell. How does their continued lack of interest result in them no longer living in a democratic republic?
I suggest you review the laws passed and in process that allow state legislatures to overturn elections unilaterally.
Albatross on a stick
Could you please explain this statement:
In Juxtaposition with the linked video and in the context of the article?
Yeah election results being 'challenged' like trumpturd's happen all the time.
Bush/Gore
You mean when, after the court ruled, Al Gore graciously conceded for the good of the nation?
So, does anyone here actually believe the Big Lie that Trump won the election?
Probably more than those who would actually admit it.
It is an interesting confliction. If someone still supports Trump (i.e. would vote for him for PotUS in 2024 or wants him to be the leader of the GoP) then they knowingly support someone who has demonstrated he will make the grandest lie with no supporting evidence, against mountains of evidence to the contrary and would willingly put the nation through unnecessary, divisive angst simply because his ego cannot handle losing an election.
I can think of more than a few, only one who is actually stupid enough to come out and say it though.