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What is "conversation"? ... by Bob Nelson

  

Category:  Other

Via:  bob-nelson  •  10 years ago  •  34 comments

What is "conversation"?   ...   by Bob Nelson

conversation-loop.jpg?width=400

At the end of the "Great Red Rules Debate", I posted an article with the intention of testing the waters.

The waters were boiling!

In retrospect, I chose a bad topic. I had not known that the word "Obamacare" would provoke such vehemence.

In retrospect, I see that many NTers cannot -- literally cannot -- converse calmly about anything related to the President, and so my experiment was condemned to give a predictable result: massive off-topic derailing.

My initial reaction was a kind of satisfaction at having had my thesis validated: "Red Rules are necessary because people intentionally demolish anything that challenges their thinking"!

On the other hand... I would never accept conclusions from another person, drawn on a single data point. So I decided to pursue the experiment. For three weeks, I have posted seeds and articles without Red Rules, to see how NTers would behave.

conversation.jpg?width=250 I read eclectically, and seed stuff that I think important or interesting... without much attention to whether it will be popular. I post quite a bit about economics, which I think to be interesting and important... but which most people think a thunderous bore. Several such seeds have gone without a single Reply. No matter. It is quick and easy to seed. I put the stuff up, available if anyone is interested. If they aren't , there's no harm to anyone.

I've put up a couple of technology bits. Several religion items. These have been the most useful in my "experiment". There have been three sorts of Reply:

  • commentaries on the topic! This is what should happen. Some excellent exchanges, not necessarily long... but thoughtful.
  • tangents. Not completely off-topic, but not on-topic, either. (More on these later)
  • derail to politics.

After these three weeks, I've come up with a few ideas that I would like to share:

"Politics addiction". I think some NTers are so passionate about politics that they have great difficulty discussing anything else. These people will derail any topic to politics, and they honestly will not see that they are derailing. For them, everything really is politics, so they are necessarily on-topic. This is a hard nut to crack!

Aside. In a serious real-world conversation, the participants make a voluntary effort to stay on topic. At the same time, they occasionally say something that is totally off-topic, momentarily derailing, but with the obvious intention of quickly returning. I think this notion is important, both for authors invoking Red Rules and for Mods. Asides are useful, because they lighten the mood of the participants. The danger, of course, is that the "return" never happen...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQk6nLtiEssdHR2mIgSP6dhn4PFol3qpe3sBwA63SLph6cSNpaF&width=200 Chat. A conversation entirely composed of asides. These can be fun, but are not to be confused with " serious conversation". Chat and serious conversation are like oil and water: they don't mix!

Tangent. A "slightly" off-topic Reply. A totally off-topic Reply is pretty easy to spot, and stop. A tangent is much trickier! If an author/Mod calls "off-topic" at every tangent, the conversation is stifled. So some latitude must be given. On the other hand, after three or four Replies, that thread may be quite far away from the original topic, and its participants must be ready to accept a "Hey folks, let's get back on topic, OK?"

Derail to meta. This is a killer! Any conversation can be destroyed instantly. We really, really REALLY need a general "good manners" rule that meta is not to be treated within a conversation. I say "good manners", because when a person brings up meta in a conversation, they are in effect contending that the manner of managing the conversation is more important than its content. That's pretty insulting. We need to agree that meta is important and that all of us should be ready to discuss our decisions... but that meta should be treated outside the conversation , by email or messaging or chat... Each of us should be aware that shifting to meta is a way of killing a conversation . If you didn't realize that before, I hope you do now!

----------------------

Now that a bit of time has passed... and passions cooled... I'd like to present my Red Rules again:

Red Rules

- Be polite. No insults. Insults never improve a conversation.

- Stay on the topic of the seed/article.

- Explain your own thinking. Ask about others' thinking. Do not try to explain others' thinking.

-------

Meta is off-topic . Please send me any questions or comments about meta via chat or email. Let's not derail the seed into meta. Thanks.

Three strikes and you're out . Three deletions and you're evicted from the conversation on the presumption that you are intentionally disrupting.

-------

The topic of the seed/article appears to me to be yada yada.

You may challenge this interpretation, but please be explicit, something like, "It seems to me that the topic of the seed/article is yodo yodo, because of the following excerpt: "yyyyy yyyyyy yyyy yyyyy yyyyyyyy yyy yyyy yyyyy ". Please be factual -- you are changing the topic, after all !

If you do not challenge my definition of the topic, then please stick to that topic. Thank you.

I hope that you can see that if people want good, serious conversation... they will follow these rules, even if they are not enunciated! These rules are not constricting, for anyone who is truly interested in the topic.

They are only constricting for someone who wants to change the topic ...

-----------------

I shall continue to post without Red Rules, and we'll see how it goes...


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Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

There are two topics here:

  • the nature of "conversation", and how to obtain a "serious" one.
  • the aptitude of my Red Rules to obtain a "serious conversation".
 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser    10 years ago

I'm probably the worst person to ask about keeping a conversation on track. I think it is inherent to a conversation in this part of the country, though.. As an example:

Me: Did you know that gas has gone down to $1.99 at the Thornton's on Shelbyville Road? (topic)

Friend: Really? I'm going to go fill up quick! This won't last to the weekend, as usual!

Me: Probably not, they always raise prices for the weekend. (topic) Say, did Joey get his braces off? (off topic)

Friend: Yes, on Wednesday! He wears a retainer at night-- is Matthew still sick? (off topic)

Me: He's feeling better...

Inquiries about the health and well-being of one's family, the general state of the world, and other friendly exchanges are very likely to go off topic, even when serious...

So, I'm sorry if I'm off topic, but I think it is an illness called "social exchange"...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

You said:

"...meta should be treatedoutsidetheconversation, by email or messaging or chat... Each of us should be aware thatshifting to meta is a way of killing a conversation."

Please forgive me if I'm being somewhat obtuse, but isn't this whole article meta?

As for your comment that you post articles which rarely get a comment - try posting articles on groups like "Classic Cinema", "Canada", "Middle East Affairs" etc if that is of no consequence to you.

In order to derail the topic, I thought I'd ask this: Why is it that out of approximately 3/4 of a thousand members, only around 20 or 30 post regularly and perhaps another 20 or 30 might heard from occasionally while the rest are as active as barnacles on the bottom of a boat?

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser    10 years ago

Thanks, Robert!

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

Dowser,

That's a fine example of tangent / derail. Perfectly on-topic!

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

Ummm....... Buzz?

What part of "shifting to meta" do you not understand?

;-))

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

What one man sees as conversation another man could see as an insult. Take this famous statement from John Wayne for example. "I believe in welfare a welfare work program. I dont think a fella should be able to sit on his backside and receive welfare. Id like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living." I see value in this statement while some liberals might take it as an insult.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

Isn't it short form for metamorphosis?

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

The lazier the liberal the more likely that is.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
link   Kavika     10 years ago

Themore out of touch with realitya conservative is, the more likely they are to believeyour nonsense.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

Is that an insult or is that conversation? It's a slippery slope when we restrict freedom of speech.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
link   Kavika     10 years ago

It's a response to your comment Dean. It's free speech at it's finest.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

And I would hate to see it deleted because of foolish red box rules.

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Guide
link   Robert in Ohio    10 years ago

There are two topics here:

  • the nature of "conversation", and how to obtain a "serious" one.
  • the aptitude of my Red Rules to obtain a "serious conversation".

In response

  • engage serious people

  • not likely around here
 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

Thanks, guys!

You have brilliantly demonstrated "tangent becomes derail"!

Smile.gif

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

not likely

I tend to be an optimist.

Or fantaisist, some might say...

Grin.gif

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

In your eyes. That's the problem with red box rules.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

It's my article, Dean.

 
 
 
Dean Moriarty
Professor Quiet
link   Dean Moriarty    10 years ago

It should not make any difference who posted the article.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

It should not make any difference who posted the article.

That is a key presumption.

I disagree absolutely!

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

I'm not too confident in your red rules Bob . I was thinking about putting something up about the responsiveness of commenters to questions [which would also include the article seeder ] . What do you think?

 
 
 
jennilee
Freshman Silent
link   jennilee    10 years ago
Ok, I know I am pretty illiterate when it comes to modern language, (I just recently learned proper usage of the word "word") but what exactly is meta???
 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Guide
link   Robert in Ohio    10 years ago

Petey

Now that would be an interesting a rule, e.g. a question is posed to a member, if the member comments but fails to answer the question the comment could be deleted as a violation of the red rules. Very interesting

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

Yeah ... you know you would be in deep doo-doo with that rule . Your penchant for ignoring questions posed to you is pretty much record breaking .

 
 
 
Robert in Ohio
Professor Guide
link   Robert in Ohio    10 years ago

Petey

I see we were thinking along the same lines

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

I will use that approach in a future article . I will name it the John Russell repellant rule ... in your honor {grins} .

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

... what exactly is meta?

Oops! My bad! I should have defined "meta" since it isn't actually a word. 17.gif

"Meta" is "how the forum is run". When we discuss the CoC, that's "meta". When someone complains about how a Mod intervened, that's "meta". When we discuss Red Rules, that's "meta".

It's surely short for "metasomething", but I have no idea what.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago
I was thinking about putting something up about the responsiveness of commenters to questions [which would also include the article seeder ] .

It's an interesting idea, but too easy to subvert. Just ask a series of annoying questions that you know the other person won't answer... and then ban them for not answering.

OTOH, a participant can always underscore another participant's refusal to answer questions. This is for third-party observers, since it won't have any effect on the person who isn't answering. And if the questions are "just to annoy", those observers will see that, too.

As a general rule, I don't care much for coercion.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

Ummm..... Yes...

That's why one of the article's tags is "meta"...

40.gif 40.gif 40.gif

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

Each poster can make up their own rules as they go along.

Nah , not as they "go along" . The idea proposed was that the rules would have to be posted as the first comment so that they could not be changed later on ...

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

too easy to subvert. Just ask a series of annoying questions that you know the other person won't answer

Questions are only annoying to someone pushing an agenda . The questions also have to be relevant to the flow of the topics and the discussion about it . But I am going to be flexible here & ask for clarification in case you have something else in mind . Do you ? Remember : if a seeder goes out of his way to be obscure , he will end up being ignored ...

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

The questions also have to be relevant to the flow of the topics and the discussion about it

That's what I meant. Asking irrelevant questions is "annoying".

Requiring relevance creates the same problems as requiring on-topic: it's a judgment call.

 
 
 
Petey Coober
Freshman Silent
link   Petey Coober    10 years ago

Asking irrelevant questions is "annoying".

If a seeder/author did that , they would be ignored ... and the article would soon fall off the FP . Problem solved . Next point ?

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Guide
link   seeder  Bob Nelson    10 years ago

Three things:

Next point ?

Is someone keeping score?

they would be ignored ... and the article would soon fall off the FP

That is also the reason that an author won't abuse Red Rules.

More importantly... I have been thinking about the actual situation, and trying to imagine how "required to answer questions" would go down.

In a serious conversation, questions are welcome, because they give an opportunity to reformulate/explain. So if someone refuses to answer a question, something is off-kilter.Perhaps the conversation is not serious, is more of a shouting match, and the questions are perceived (perhaps rightly) as aggression rather than request for information. (The execrable "So what you are saying is xxxxxx?" is a question, but it is not a request for information!)

So... I agree that unanswered questions are a vital symptom of a conversation going sick... I agree that an author / Mod should be alert to such cases because they demonstrate that the conversation is in trouble.

I'm not sure that a "ban" would be much different from Red Rules.

 
 

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