Tribalism vs Unity
Link to Quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/324457-people-who-think-with-their-epidermis-or-their-genitalia-or#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPeople%20who%20think%20with%20their%20epidermis%20or%20their,his%20or%20her%20favor%20for%20the%20identical%20reason .
It was the Ancient Romans who first incorporated people of many different races and cultures into citizens who belonged to one culture and one nation. That idea was later adopted by the United States. Today in the post modern world the nation is grappling with the new left's idea of multiculturalism , which threatens to alter American society into one much like those which are defined by race and feature competing groups. In other words: tribalism.
Tribalism has plagued mankind throughout it's history. Tribalism is now synonymous with multiculturalism. The people who believe in multiculturalism (the progressives) believe that bonds and alliegences to ones race or group must supersede alliegences to the nation. When we think of all the ethnic groups that came to America in waves, we recall that they all assimilated into one people united & loyal to the United States of America. Within two generations many couldn't speak their native language, nor even gave it a second thought. The thing that we should all be proud of is that none of those groups vote monolithically. Most of the world still lacks the integrated society that the US created and benefits from. Many other countries have tried and failed but the US got it right.
Today tribalism is at war with American inclusion via citizenship ("Out of many there is one.") Example: American universities. Colleges use race as a condition for admission. English departments are favoring admitting people of the proper skin colors. Harvard University penalized Asian Americans for being too successful. Chicago University recently announced that no English majors need apply to its graduate programs unless they focus on black related studies.
Then there is the dmocratic party:The president claims that election rules to prevent fraud equate to "Jim Crow" without any evidence whatsoever. Stacey Abrams claims that the state of Georgia is trying to make it hard for blacks to vote just as blacks there are voting in record numbers. Part of the reason for the open border policy is to change the demographis of the US. Democrats firmly believe that all they need do is fund a way to give the people they let in have the right to vote (which should only be a right of citizenship) that they will win elections regarless of issues.
Once tribalism takes hold it will be very difficult to correct.
The future of our children and their children is at stake.
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"America represents something universal in the human spirit. I received a letter not long ago from a man who said, 'You can go to Japan to live, but you cannot become Japanese. You can go to France to live and not become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Turkey, and you won't become a German or a Turk.' But then he added, 'Anybody from any corner of the world can come to America to live and become an American"......Ronald Reagan ( Campaign rally for Vice President Bush, San Diego, November 7, 1988)
pretty funny coming from the party where nearly 2/3's of the membership still think the last election was stolen.
Link Please
Fat chance.
This is where civility fails us.
Where are your certified stats on that "2/3s"? Please offer them.
Pretty funny, considering that Hillary, Joy Reid, Joy Behar, and many others still believe that 2016 was "stolen". Pretty funny that Stacey Abrams still hasn't conceded 2018.
Nope. That does not back up that wild statement.
Yeah it does, whether you think it does or not.
Here is another one for you.
Nearly a third of Americans — including six-in-10 Republicans — continue to hold the debunked belief that President Joe Biden didn’t win the 2020 presidential election legitimately, according to a new Monmouth University poll released the day before the House Jan. 6 Committee holds its latest public hearing.
trump supporters are as gutless as he is.
There are basically two "races" that were massively misused and oppressed in America - blacks and reds (American Indians) . Neither of those groups have completely assimilated into traditional American society. Instead of bitching about it you should try and understand why that is so.
Blacks, and American Indians have been defacto second class citizens for HUNDREDS of years. Dont you think it requires massive social change and change of attitudes to get past that? We're not there yet, its really that simple.
The defenders of 'western civilization " invariably end up taking a "white" point of view. That is the past, not the future. If you want a white dominated society get yourself a desert island and start your own civilization.
Really? I thought it was synonymous with MAGA.
We did that.
You are in for the battle of your life.
Im so scared.
I'm sure you will be
it's funny you should state that...
Do you ever think telling people for generations that they are second class citizens who can’t succeed because of white supremacy and incapable of succeeding without government help from white democrats and their minions within those communities might play a role?
amazing how “white supremacy” and systematic racism doesn’t prevent so many other ethnic groups whose identity isn’t being the victim from equaling or exceeding white success.
My Neighbor is a Haitian immigrant who moved here 25 years ago, he has six brothers and five live in America and they all own their own homes. They all pursued education to increase their incomes and are living the American Dream. My Neighbor's Wife is also a Haitian immigrant and she has two brothers and a sister living here, both brothers are home owners and her sister is 19 and in College.
Th second class citizenship of blacks far predates whatever you think the modern Democratic Party has had to say about it.
It's amazing what happens when that's prioritized.
Zuksam, your "neighbor's" success has little to nothing to do with political and societal systemic racism which is promoted by a political party or parties. That is, state and national policy-makers and institutions.
Individual successes stories abound despite systemic problems of race not because of its absence in society.
I will grant you persistence to push back against racism where and when it is found and isolated has led to 'major' social improvement, but we shall not shut our eyes or our minds to the forces which are looking to reverse and buck the trend and return to some rejected model of a bygone 'America.'
Yes, it escapes no one's understanding that there are individual black American billionaires, plural and becoming Native American millionaires, but those forces apathetic and aligned against such possibilities and trends can not jump or straddle 'figures' and claim it is because of their genuine efforts to achieve unity for all. Because it would be a blatant lie.
This/these discussions are simple academic theater for MAGA conservatives. It is clear they do not intend to be moved by anything a liberal can say to them. Additionally, t is clear that liberal policies are inclusive of conservatives, and clear conservative policies are exclusive of liberals. Yet, they come here vainly trying to confuse the two sets of policies.
Exactly, Asian Americans got a free pass, 'yellow peril' was just a typo for yellow pearl. We even sent Japanese-Americans to camp in the 40's. Asian immigrants from the gold rush to the building of our intercontinental railroad, the Chinese Exclusion Act , the 1917 and 1924 Immigration Acts, the Vietnamese, Cambodian and Laotian refugees all had a breeze with assimilation. You never see any Asian American discrimination here, they have had it so easy.
You forgot that part.
170 years of Asian American immigration, your point?
We also sent our own Aleut people to internment camps where 10% died.
You do know the original intent of ''Indian Reservations'' don't you. Oh, and at the beginning it was illegal to leave the rez punishable by death.
We, Native Americans have not been citizens for 100 years. It was in 1924 that we were ''made'' citizens. Of course, it wasn't until the 1970s that all states complied. And they are still trying to suppress our vote. Would you like some links to the latest court decisions, 2022 being the latest.
We, Native Americans have been here for tens of thousands of years.
Your point.
There you go John, refusing to recognize people as individuals and simply defining them by their racial identity.
No one is hundreds of years old. There is no gene that passes down oppression, so the sufferings of one's ancestors aren't inherited.
My ancestors were starved to death and emigrated on coffin ships. Irish Americans can play the woe is me game with any of them. That doesn't excuse any mistakes I made.
Sean , if the past doesnt matter to people, why do we have national holidays and school children learn about George Washington and Benjamin Franklin? Why do they learn anything about any of the presidents, and Thomas Edison and Henry Ford , and the pioneers of the west? etc. After all, ALL of that is in the past and bears no relationship to anything that matters today.
I'm Irish American too. All eight of my mothers great grandparents were born in Ireland. So what? The Irish were not slaves for a couple hundred years based on the color of their skin, and then for an additional hundred years subject to an apartheid like existence as "the other".
Where do you get that from? Of course the past matters. One of the primary reasons we should learn about the past to learn from mistakes. .
tc. After all, ALL of that is in the past and bears no relationship to anything that matters today
That might be the biggest strawman of all the strawmen ever made.
Of course the past matters.
So what?
Exactly. It doesn't matter one bit. Your successes and failures are your own and not inherited from people you may never have even met. The idea that a thirty year old in America is held back because of what their ancestors may have suffered is simply preposterous. It's just a lazy excuse to avoid facing harsh truths.
There are conservatives, today, who object to schoolchildren being taught that America has been racist. Moms For Liberty, one of the groups who want to whitewash American history. I saw one of the founders of Moms For Liberty interviewed. She was so ignorant about the 3/5 clause in the Constitution she had come back to a tv interviewer the next day and apologize. Why is she ignorant? It is willful . She also said that the founders put the country on a path to end slavery, therefore THEY SHOULD BE PRAISED, not criticized. Almost none of the "founders" gave up their slaves during their lifetime, but they should be praised? It is ridiculous.
People in this country dont want to be honest about these things.
I get it Sean. Some whites are traumatized by their predecessors. You want to know what is 'messed up'? It is this: Some whites, mostly conservatives, want to do nothing about the trauma they feel except deny it and stall the healing process. If you can't handle the past dealings of race relations in our nation, then do what you can to see that it never happens again. Denial is not an option, Sean. Moreover, the surest sign of conservatives getting the proper message with be when you stop telling us who we can respond to as a people positively.
We don't need that from conservatives who don't really want or like societal change, Sean.
I don't think you do.
Denial is not an option, Sean.
good thing that has nothing to do with what I wrote.
conservatives who don't really want or like societal change, Sean.
Yes, I'm against American society changing into a nazi state where blood determines outcomes and people are treated by their racial identities instead of as individuals. Sad that's what progressives want.
What's sad is that's full of it. You can be for what ever you wish; but the GOP ain't helping you make your case. What you imply about 'outcomes' would make a heap more sense if your 'ex-' Donald Trump did not 'own' the GOP from top to bottom and twenty-four seven. Follow the (errand) leader y'all. Go!
Tribalism (unification) is what the GOP/conservatives are all about:
Well we have already seen how much McCarthy has wrapped his political . . . whatever tightly around Donald Trump; for crying out loud, his 'home' the capitol was invaded and torn from one end to the other and Trump kissed and made up with him. And don't get us started on Marjorie Taylor Greene and her 'Q' continuum.
Sean, the last thing MAGA is, the least thing, is free: Exception: Anarchy. And that won't get you to a path to community or longevity.
Why it seems some high number of voters are indicating they want to give the reins of power and influence back over to GOP/Trump is beyond me. Short-term gain (should any occur) is not going to be worth the risk of possibly tanking or setting back democracy principles.
Blacks and Native Americans tend to self segregate. And neither group is being held back by Whites.
Easy for you to say. Tell me are you 'integrating' yourself in the real world? How many friends of a different racially group do you count in your 'circle'?
It is hard to mix with people who won't bother to budge from their standard of what they call acceptable. For instance: How do your conservative friends homogenize with homosexuals? Reaching outside your group much, eh?
It seems that you really have no idea what you're talking about, Greg.
Truer words have never been spoken.
Wow, how paradoxical of you, Vic, to label multiculturalism -tribalism. Besides the compartmentalization from the conservative 'mind' to think it can speak to the values of anybody outside its group 'combines' is hubris, this nation is partially in its political mess because a persistent collection of conservatives won't budge one iota on letting other citizens alone to be what could become an exquisite 'art' of living their best lives.
Here you dare to defame the "left" yet again, while partisanly leaving off the "right" from your commentary/opinion. Obviously, this approach lacks fairness and balance.
Is EVERYTHING under the sun the fault of conservatives?
I can't quite tell from your continual bashing of them.
I am sorry but the victim card being played is so old and outdated.
In case you didn't know, Democrats are in total control in DC now, and have been for almost 2 years. When do Democrats and liberals responsibility begin?
Um-hum.
Do elaborate farther.
They defamed themselves. How do you think the nation feels about all this wokeness?
How do you feel about 'wokeness,' Vic? You brought it up; why ask me if you don't care about it?
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You managed to partisanly leave out the left and progressives from your post.
I will step aside briefly because exchanges with you never amount to more than banter or tomfoolery; to say: Yes, I am aware that in pointing out the omission on the part of our 'host' that I left out criticism for the Left. For whom, I would wish the sides would drop their 'vicious cycles of looping' and trying to outdo each other in petty and serious detriments and do this: Realize that this country is faltering because citizens are demonizing and mocking each other ceaselessly. It is hard to work for and with people whom you don't respect first as. . . people or as citizens, and not as comparable equals.
So, we can unstick our problems if we want to, when we wish. The question is just how long will we allow ourselves to sink into the muck and mire of those on both sides who seek to abuse 'the Middle.' Those of us who long to be/are in the middle of politics, that is.
Yes, I know, that is what I stated. Seems like a bad habit as usually you are just bashing conservatives.
This 'hit piece' is so damn stupid and slated it is hard to know where to begin. Multiculturalism can not be triablism, by definition. However, leave it up to a "projectionist" to try to confuse the issue and offer an alternative reality as 'thoughtful' reflection. This ceaseless so-called, political combat, is so unfortunate and is doing more societal harm than good.
What is the objective of "multiculturalism?"
You tell us, you thought it needful to post about it!
Those on the left always talk about "unity" in some Kumbaya fantasy, but in reality, that keeps us separate.
Used to be, people new to this country tried to assimilate into our society.
What are the definitions that you're using for both?
Dictionary definitions of pluralism, and single group participation, or some such things, respectively. What are the definitions you are using for both?
Multiculturalism refers to the state of a society or the world in which there exists numerous distinct ethnic and cultural groups seen to be politically relevant.
Tribalism refers to the state of living together in tribes or the beliefs of a tribal society.
Do you use the same?
Pluralism and single group participation. Same as what you wrote using other words, do you agree?
I'm trying to understand your com ment, "Multiculturalism can not be triablism, by definition".,
Don't digress.
* Quick sourcing.
Tribalism:
Pluralism? You were previously commenting on multiculturalism vs tribalism.
And I am intermingling the two: multiculturalism and pluralism:
You still haven't explained why multiculturalism can not be tribalism, by definition.
I don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I'm curious as to why you would intermingle them when pluralism would only apply to one theory(melting pot) and tribalism could be applied to the other theory(salad bowl)?
There isn't a conversation here to interrupt.
Then you do it, Drinker. Clearly, you have time and opportunity before you.
I agree. Drinker offers the usual banter and shallow counternarrative that has branded him.
Think of pluralism and multiculturalism as a multifaceted jewel:
We all come together and blend our differences into a form and fashion which allows individual expression while at the same time realizing that we bring something different. Together we achieve harmony .
Tribalism is not the 'salad bowl' approach as you suggest. Tribalism is single-minded focus on one's own chosen group or grouping and in this context. A focus that seeks to dominate or continue to dominate all other groups through positioning.
BTW, there have been times when Blacks wanted nothing greater than to homogenize with a white majority and were pushed away by law and statutes. It is easy to see why blacks don't trust 'faithless' conservatives who play up colorblindness as a means to continue controlling the national consciousness.
I have no idea of what you are trying to say.
I would assume from this part of your post that you subscribe to the melting pot theory?
I disagree. The 'salad bowl' theory is the roots of identity politics which is tribalism.
BTW, perhaps they shouldn't trust faithless liberals who do the same and no doubt enacted or helped to enact some of those laws and statutes.
Meh.
We don't have to 'melt' into one society all thinking as 'one.' GregTx. That is we may never make it into a 'soup.' But we can be a salad co-existing and allowing each other to breath and have our being. That is something we are not doing well now. As we, some of us anyway, collide and labor to destroy each other's interests.
That's not really what the melting pot theory of multiculturalism is about. Although your salad comparison does come close to describing the 'melting pot'.
Yes, in many ways due to the tribalism of identity politics.
What, in your estimation, is the melting pot concept? Also, as I stated, and I tried to be tactful about it, black Americans tried to join our country's standard of "whiteness" culturally-and still do in many ways-but for the longest of times it has been an unsurmountable feat to accomplish. As there are White conservatives who still won't accept blacks living in their conclaves or surrounding or who want to control the 'direction' and focus of black success! Subsequently, black America is success in many ways despite what obstacles are thrown up.
One has to consider just how successful black Americans could be if 'traumatized' whites who hate us would relax their posture and obstruction and seek to get along together with us. "Work smarter (together) and not harder (to divide us).
Fairly simple, does someone consider themselves American or is there a hyphen attached.
I see what you mean.
Well, how convenient. Tell that to the U.S. Census and White nationalists. Moreover, I am glad you want to rid the nation of our need for 'hyphenated" groups of citizens. But, for now, the hyphens are doing a lot of judicious work in our society. It will be of interest to me to live to see which 'smelts' first: The hyphenated "American" or conservative and liberal as types.
Not to worry, backtracking and deflection are sure to come.
Struck a nerve? Sorry, wasn't my intent. I thought we were having a discussion about multiculturalism and tribalism.
What gives you that impression? You wrote:
Forgetful already? You 'called out' hyphenated groups-not me.
Your hyperbolic post. I 'called out' no one, just answered your question.
What judicious work do you mean?
I love me some pan-fried smelts.
As day becomes night.
Discussion? You both have varying ideas of what that means.
Smooth moving the goalposts.
Whatever. Some conservatives are more drama than substance. 'Carry on.' (The stage is yours!)
Yah Heikki .... da smelt are runnin in Toivola eh?
Humans, by nature and instinct, are tribal
That is not true. Although yes, humans are born into a tribal setting: that is, a family, extended family, a community of families. That surrounding community will be instinctively diversified in a child up unto s/he is told to stay away from others by word or deed.
Any evidence for your assertion?
Drinker, what say you. . . should little boys and girls be pressured up to 10 years old to be heterosexual by the state? Or, are you open to kids being taught to take pride in diversity expression?
You asserted that humans, by nature and instinct, aren't tribal.
Are you trying to change the topic?
And I qualified my statement too. In the same comment, no doubt! Do keep up.
I pulled a 'hot topic' straight out of current events where republicans and conservatives won't budge and are staking a claim to silence Americans they don't like or care for their social expression (multiculturalism/pluralism) while holding to a functioning status quo (heterosexual tribalism) and you have to ask if I am changing the subject. Go deeper and don't just skim the surface of discussion, Drinker!
uh-huh
I prefer clarity before going deeper and you seem to shun that.
Meh.
Exactly.
No, you're evasive and don't really want a conversation, not worth any effort.
Boo-hoo.
Exactly.
This...opinion article's title is 'off.' It is evident the "projectionist" want us to consent to condemning liberals, while lauding conservatives. But that can't happen, because conservatives are the biggest purveyors of policies which isolate and divide us. Just read this nonsense from the 'opinion' above:
So progressives who are seeking a population which moves away from our national 'disgace' of past and present apologies for our. . . "formulative years" into a diverse future that recognizes all people of goodwill have value and positioning in society are not "American" enough? The word, conservative, by definition, pits itself against progress and diversification of the power and influence structure of this society. This is the first time in our national existence that diversity in population has amassed numbers to 'speak up' for itself collectively. And some can't stand it, and want to go 'back' into the national 'womb' and start over.
The assimilation spoken of in the above quote was for a privileged 'few' who determined for themselves what a 'whiteness' standard would be and then executed it by keeping those who did not or could not measure up out of it.
Is that really a question of yours?
National womb?
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