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Murderous 1600s pirate hid out in US colonies with impunity | AP News

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  perrie-halpern  •  2 years ago  •  97 comments

By:   WILLIAM J. KOLE (AP NEWS)

Murderous 1600s pirate hid out in US colonies with impunity | AP News
WARWICK, R.I. (AP) — One tarnished silver coin at a time, the ground is yielding new evidence that in the late 1600s, one of the world's most ruthless pirates wandered the American colonies with impunity.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



WARWICK, R.I. (AP) — One tarnished silver coin at a time, the ground is yielding new evidence that in the late 1600s, one of the world's most ruthless pirates wandered the American colonies with impunity.

Newly surfaced documents also strengthen the case that English buccaneer Henry Every — the target of the first worldwide manhunt — hid out in New England before sailing for Ireland and vanishing into the wind.

"At this point, the amount of evidence is overwhelming and indisputable," historian and metal detectorist Jim Bailey, who's devoted years to solving the mystery, told The Associated Press. "Every was undoubtedly on the run in the colonies."

In 2014, after unearthing an unusual coin engraved with an Arabic inscription at a pick-your-own-fruit orchard in Middletown, Rhode Island, Bailey began retracing Every's steps.

Research confirmed that the exotic coin was minted in 1693 in Yemen. Bailey then discovered that it was consistent with millions of dollars' worth of coins and other valuables seized by Every and his men in their brazen Sept. 7, 1695, sacking of the Ganj-i-Sawai, an armed royal vessel owned by Indian emperor Aurangzeb.

Historical accounts say Every's band tortured and killed passengers aboard the Indian ship and raped many of the women before escaping to the Bahamas, a haven for pirates. But word quickly spread of their crimes, and English King William III — under enormous pressure from a scandalized India and the influential East India Company trading giant — put a large bounty on their heads.

Detectorists and archaeologists have since located 26 similar coins stretching from Maine to the Carolinas. All but three coins turned up in New England, and none can be dated later than when the Indian ship was captured.

"When I first heard about it, I thought, 'Wait a minute, this can't be true,'" said Steve Album, a rare coin specialist based in Santa Rosa, California, who helped identify all of the silver Arabic coins found in New England.

"But these coins have been found legitimately and in a few instances archaeologically, and every single one predates the sacking of the ship," said Album, who has lived in Iran and has traveled widely in the Middle East.

Detectorists have also unearthed a gold nugget weighing 3 grams (a tenth of an ounce) — slightly heavier than a U.S. penny — from a potato field perched on a hilltop in seaside Little Compton, Rhode Island.

There's no documented evidence that naturally occurring gold has ever been found in the state. Bailey and other experts believe that the nugget likely originated somewhere along Africa's Gold Coast, a center for the slave trade in the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Adding to the intrigue, two silver Arabic coins were recovered not far from the nugget, and Every is known to have seized a considerable amount of gold while sailing off the coast of West Africa.

The latest evidence putting Every on American soil isn't just metallic — it includes paper and pixels.

Bailey had already found records showing that the Sea Flower, a ship used by Every and his men after they ditched the vessel they'd used in their murderous raid, arrived in 1696 in Newport, Rhode Island. He's since surfaced documents that show that the pirate captain was accompanied by three Rhode Islanders he took aboard from another pirate vessel when he fled India. All three came ashore with Every in the Bahamas on March 30, 1696, and Bailey said that they essentially served as getaway drivers in exchange for plunder.

Captured pirates William Phillips and Edward Savill testified on Aug. 27, 1696, that one of two ships that left the Bahamas went to Virginia and New England before reaching Ireland. Critically, Bailey said, the records clarify a muddy timeline that long has been misinterpreted by historians to suggest Every lingered two months on the Caribbean island — something he'd never have done as a fugitive.

"There's no way he stayed in the Bahamas to sit on the beach and work on his tan while waiting to be captured," Bailey said. "Indeed, Every was in New England for over a month weighing his options for starting his life anew in the colonies or going back home to England."

Every's exploits have inspired Steven Johnson's book "Enemy of All Mankind," and the final installment of PlayStation's popular "Uncharted" video game franchise. Earlier this year, Sony Pictures released a movie adaptation starring Tom Holland, Mark Wahlberg and Antonio Banderas.

Bailey's next challenge: figuring out what happened to Every after the trail ran cold following his arrival in Ireland on June 20, 1696. It's the mystery's elusive final chapter — one he hopes to detail in a forthcoming book about the cold case.

"We're chasing down the lost history behind one of the greatest crimes of the 17th century," he said.


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al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
1  al Jizzerror    2 years ago

512

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  al Jizzerror @1    2 years ago

Every what?

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
1.1.1  Kavika   replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1    2 years ago

Henry Every 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
2  Buzz of the Orient    2 years ago

Oh, shows how little I know about Harry Potter, or is it Pirates of the Caribbean?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
2.1  Ender  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @2    2 years ago

Never watched the pirate movies so I can't help ya there.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
2.1.1  cobaltblue  replied to  Ender @2.1    2 years ago

Never watched the pirate movies so I can't help ya there.

Arrrrrrr you sure? Look me in the aye ... 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
2.1.2  afrayedknot  replied to  cobaltblue @2.1.1    2 years ago

“I don’t want to be a pirate…”

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
2.1.3  cobaltblue  replied to  afrayedknot @2.1.2    2 years ago

“I don’t want to be a pirate…”

I can't hear you; you're a low talker. Just wear the damn shirt.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
2.1.4  afrayedknot  replied to  cobaltblue @2.1.3    2 years ago

“Just wear the damn shirt.”

It’s all about the second button. 

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
2.1.5  al Jizzerror  replied to  cobaltblue @2.1.3    2 years ago

I'll stick with rum,

Cause I ain't dumb.

Britney's got whisky,

Butt she's bloody risky.

512

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
2.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.1.5    2 years ago

I say that I get a big win with gin.

Others say gin can damage your short-term memory.

If that's the case, just imagine what gin can do.

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
2.1.7  al Jizzerror  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.6    2 years ago
I say that I get a big win with gin.

I don't like gin,

Even though it rhymes with sin.

You should stick with wry,

Cause your humor is dry.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
2.1.8  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.1.7    2 years ago

Last night I had one too many and couldn't tell the difference between a wry allusion and a rye illusion, it was so confusion. 

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
2.1.9  al Jizzerror  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.8    2 years ago
couldn't tell the difference between a wry allusion and a rye illusion

Maybe drinking wry,

Caused a sty,

In your eye.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
2.1.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.1.9    2 years ago
In your eye.

I can still see

a wise guy.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
2.1.11  cobaltblue  replied to  al Jizzerror @2.1.9    2 years ago

In your eye.

People drink rye,
I ask myself why
blah blah blah
Don’t get sperm in your eye

Is that good?

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
2.1.12  TTGA  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @2.1.6    2 years ago

There's a good reason for drinking the stuff, but I can't remember what it is.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
3  Split Personality    2 years ago

Henry Avery changed the world. /s

Prior to his reign of terror, there were most certainly pirates.

They always identified themselves by either flying a solid red or solid black flag.

A flag you did not want found on your ship if you were boarded by the English.

Every/Avery wanted to be recognized.

He invented a new flag.

320

He started a pirate fashion craze of signature pirate flags which

collectively became known as The Jolly Roger.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
3.1  cobaltblue  replied to  Split Personality @3    2 years ago
Henry Avery changed the world. /s

James Avery charmed the world.

de52f9931dcf1492a16015c55355a2d2.jpg

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
3.2  cobaltblue  replied to  Split Personality @3    2 years ago
fashion craze of signature pirate flags

This is their winter flag.

ad45e6194db8c8a433fdc26398d4fd84.jpg

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4  arkpdx    2 years ago

Of course there were no US colonies in 1600's because there was no US in the 1600's

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
4.1  JBB  replied to  arkpdx @4    2 years ago

The Pilgrims migrated to the American Colony of Plymouth in 1620. The first American colony, Jamestown, was founded in 1607...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
4.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @4.1    2 years ago
The Pilgrims migrated to the American Colony of Plymouth in 1620.

Actually, that was a British Colony.

The first American colony, Jamestown, was founded in 1607...

That was also a British Colony.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.1.2  Split Personality  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.1    2 years ago

From roughly 1700 onwards Europeans living in the colonies referred to the collective states as America.

They may have referred to themselves as British colonies up to about 1753 by which point they were identifying themselves by the state they hailed from, i.e., Virginia, New York etc.

The French & Indian War hastened the development of American identity that  left the British Crown in great debt which started the taxes which brought about the Revolution.

By the end of the Revolution, those who stayed became Americans, the rest fled north to what would one day become Canada.

I guess over time there were many American colonies, some were Spanish, others were French but the survivors were predominantly British.

The British referred to America, Australia, New Zealand and Ruperts Land as

"the colonies" and still do.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.1    2 years ago

Of course they were.

I don't know why everyone simply doesn't recognize that.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
4.1.4  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @4.1.2    2 years ago

Thanks, the British colonies in North America sent delegates in late 1774 to form a Continental Congress for the coordination of their resistance to Britain.

Open warfare began on April 19, 1775. The Continental Congress declared the British King a tyrant and they declared to be free and independent on July 4, 1776.

After protracted combat, a combined American and French force captured the British army in the fall of 1781 and the war ended.  This makes the beginning of the United States of America.

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
4.1.5  shona1  replied to  Split Personality @4.1.2    2 years ago

Evening split..we usually aren't referred to as the Colonies anymore as that ended in 1901. It's rather an antiquated term now.

We are usually referred to as the Commonwealth same as with the Kiwis, Canadians etc...

Or in our case and even better!!!....

"Those bloody colonials and convicts from Australia"....and we love it..😁🦘

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.1.6  Jack_TX  replied to  shona1 @4.1.5    2 years ago
"Those bloody colonials and convicts from Australia"....and we love it..

My son's girlfriend, who works for a US Rep, says that many diplomats refer to Australia as "the Texas of the Commonwealth".

Curious if you've ever heard that.  It's new to me. 

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
4.1.7  shona1  replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.6    2 years ago

Morning Jack...nope a new one on me...

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.1.8  Jack_TX  replied to  shona1 @4.1.7    2 years ago

I was hoping I wasn't the only one.  

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.2  Split Personality  replied to  arkpdx @4    2 years ago

Are you having a conversation with yourself or an imaginary friend?

Of course no one said anything about US colonies in the article or in the discussion.

But the continent was named America in 1507 so technically they were on American soil

which was mentioned in the article. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.2.1  arkpdx  replied to  Split Personality @4.2    2 years ago
Of course no one said anything about US colonies in the article or in the discussion.

I guess you forgot or ignored the title of the article which says:

Murderous 1600s Pirate Hid Out In US Colonies With Impunity 

(The US was enlarged and bolded by me)

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.2.2  Split Personality  replied to  arkpdx @4.2.1    2 years ago

Of course, they are in the US now. I guess you should take it up William J Kole and try to correct him.

British colonies would have been a misnomer since they had more than 100 colonies worldwide.

American colonies would be equally inaccurate as they had colonies across Ruperts Land, Central America and South America as well as the 13 survivors in what became the USA. The Americas stretch from the Artic to the Antarctic.

Perhaps Mr. Kole could have specified them as the "former 13 North American colonies

now included in the USA", or maybe he just used the two letters that were direct and to

the point if not correct to your liking.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.2.3  arkpdx  replied to  Split Personality @4.2.2    2 years ago

The fact remains that there were no US colonies in the 1600's since there was no US at that time. The US did not come into existence until the 18th century(1700's) and didn't have anything like colonies until the 19th century((1800,s). 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.2.4  Split Personality  replied to  arkpdx @4.2.3    2 years ago

Like I said, write a letter to the author or the editor at the AP.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3  Texan1211  replied to  arkpdx @4    2 years ago
Of course there were no US colonies in 1600's because there was no US in the 1600's

I can not understand why those facts seem so perplexing to some folks.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.1  Sean Treacy  replied to  Texan1211 @4.3    2 years ago

People believe our countrywas founded in 1619.  There’s really no limit to the idiocy. 

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.3.3  Split Personality  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.1    2 years ago
People believe our countrywas founded in 1619.

Oh those silly historian types.

Some think that the first successful colony was the founding of what would become the USA, aka, America.

Others believe that our story began 15,000 years ago on the west coast.

Flat earthers believe the earth is flat. 

Notre Dame worshippers believe the Four Horsemen were without fault.  

There’s really no limit to the idiocy.

Agreed.

Words sometimes get twisted especially when animus and bias have influence.

Dr James Horn has written many books about early American history like 

1619: Jamestown and the Forging of American Democracy.

1619: The Year That Shaped America  | AMERICAN HERITAGE

Although the NYTimes removed the one apparently offensive phrase that implied the

1619 colony in Virginia was the founding of the US in their 1619 Project

some people are still overreacting, even outlawing CRT in some States.

Sad.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.4  Sean Treacy  replied to  Split Personality @4.3.3    2 years ago
Oh those silly historian types.

Actual historians don't lie and intentionally make factually false claims  for partisan reasons. . [Deleted]

Some think that the first successful colony was the founding of what would become the USA, aka, America

Some people don't understand English. 

Flat earthers believe the earth is flat.

Yes, and why you think they should be humored in their nonsense is beyond me.  But sure, believing the world is and flat and our country were founded in 1619 are equivalent.  People believe a lot of false things.  Those falsehoods should be corrected.

tre Dame worshippers believe the Four Horsemen were without fault. 

[Deleted]

But enough of your silly deflections.,

Although the NYTimes removed the one apparently offensive phrase that implied the

1619 colony in Virginia was the founding of the US in their 1619 Project

You should probably understand what the 1619 project actually is, and what happened in 1619 before trying to defend it.

I get it. It's your team and you are compelled to defend it in a knee jerk manner, but try and put a little effort into it. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.4    2 years ago

Deleted

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.3.6  Split Personality  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.4    2 years ago
Actual historians don't lie

Hannah Jones isn't an historian, she's just a journalist.  I don't understand why so many people got their panties in a bunch and continue to do so over her opinions.

Some people don't understand English.

True we see proof of that here daily including spelling, grammar and comprehension.

But sure, believing the world is and flat and our country were founded in 1619 are equivalent.  

Not really, one can be proven wrong headed, the other is a matter opinion based on experience and interpretation. 

People believe a lot of false things.  Those falsehoods should be corrected.

By whom? You? Sort of like calling Europe a continent? 

Let me know when you fix that one.

I get it. It's your team and you are compelled to defend it in a knee jerk manner, but try and put a little effort into it. 

How ironic...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.7  Sean Treacy  replied to  Split Personality @4.3.6    2 years ago
Hannah Jones isn't an historian, she's just a journalist.

Right. So you are fine with left wing journalists lying. Who could expect any better of them, right?

 dstand why so many people got their panties in a bunch and continue to do so over her opinions.

Because her opinions are used to educate kids.  Can you understand why that might bother some people? You cool with intelligent design being taught in public schools? It's just an opinion, after all.

That's the nature of our disagreement though. [deleted]

he other is a matter opinion based on experience and interpretation

Sure. Teach kids the Germans won WWII.  Or that Lincoln was President in 1800.  It's all just "interpretation" 

How ironic.

[deleted]

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
4.3.8  Split Personality  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.7    2 years ago
Right. So you are fine with left wing journalists lying. Who could expect any better of them, right?

Right Wing journalists lie too.

Because her opinions are used to educate kids. 

Why would they be?

Can you understand why that might bother some people? You cool with intelligent design being taught in public schools? It's just an opinion, after all.

It's taught in thousands of private schools and churches daily. It's a profit center for some people.

Sure. Teach kids the Germans won WWII.  Or that Lincoln was President in 1800.  It's all just "interpretation" 

Now you are just wasting our time again.

Have a good night.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5  Drinker of the Wry    2 years ago

They also erroneously believe that is when African slaves came to the New World, thank you 1619 Project.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1  Split Personality  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    2 years ago
They also erroneously believe that is when African slaves came to the New World, thank you 1619 Project.

They who?  Some people? Oh the horrors.  How about the descendants of those slaves?

1619's point was that was it was the first deliverance of slaves to a successful North American colony which thrived as did slavery.

The failures in 1526 and acknowledgement of earlier enslavement of Native Americans throughout the Americas wasn't denied.

It just had little to do with the "first success" of black slavery in North America and its continued influence on today's society as seen through the eyes of a black female journalist.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
5.1.1  cobaltblue  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    2 years ago
They who?  Some people? Oh the horrors.  How about the descendants of those slaves?

You're so smart. Very turnie-onie.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
5.1.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    2 years ago
How about the descendants of those slaves?

How about them?

1619's point was that was it was the first deliverance of slaves to a successful North American colony which thrived as did slavery.

How are you defining success?

The failures in 1526

I think that the first documented African slave arrival in the Americas was in 1520.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
5.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @5.1    2 years ago

Why is 1619 relevant to this seed? This is about pirates, booty, and flying the Jolly Roger.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
5.1.4  cobaltblue  replied to  Trout Giggles @5.1.3    2 years ago

Why is 1619 relevant to this seed? This is about pirates, booty, and flying the Jolly Roger.

Yeah! I too thought it was about pilates, tight booty and Jolly Ranchers.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
5.1.5  Split Personality  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.2    2 years ago

That depends on which account of Allyon's you read. His expeditions started in 1520 or 1521 and included black slaves.

In 1526 some 700 people eventually settled near the confluence of the Santee and Cape Fear Rivers.

Some say there was a slave uprising, others a mutiny and others say disease wiped out the SC colony rather quickly.  Their supply ship sank in the Cape Fear River as they moved inland crippling the entire endeavor.

The slaves supposedly escaped to the interior in 1526 when the 150 survivors  moved down the coast to Georgia before returning to Spain.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
5.1.6  arkpdx  replied to  cobaltblue @5.1.4    2 years ago

It was about exercise, tight butts and candy?

 
 
 
al Jizzerror
Masters Expert
5.1.7  al Jizzerror  replied to  cobaltblue @5.1.1    2 years ago
Very  turnie-onie.

512

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
5.1.8  cobaltblue  replied to  arkpdx @5.1.6    2 years ago

It was about exercise, tight butts and candy?

Kinda like the ButtHeads Headquarters and Friendship Center on old NV.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
6  afrayedknot    2 years ago

“I think that the first documented African slave arrival in the Americas was in 1520.”

Making us a nation condoning slavery, repeat slavery…until the Emancipation Proclamation and a Civil War some three hundred, repeat some three hundred years later.

Pick which ever date fits the preferred narrative, but there is no denying our history. And sadly, a history that has yet to be reconciled and to this day,  500 years later by some counts, continues to haunt us. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Senior Expert
6.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  afrayedknot @6    2 years ago
Making us a nation condoning slavery, repeat slavery…until the Emancipation Proclamation and a Civil War some three hundred, repeat some three hundred years later.

Along with Portugal, Britain, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Denmark, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Columbia, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Bolivia, etc and of course the Africans that sold the slaves.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
6.1.1  pat wilson  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1    2 years ago

That's probably one of the most elaborate examples of whataboutism as I've ever seen.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2  Texan1211  replied to  afrayedknot @6    2 years ago
Making us a nation condoning slavery, repeat slavery…until the Emancipation Proclamation and a Civil War some three hundred, repeat some three hundred years later.

Say, don't let that atrocious math worry you any. Maybe in the new math, 1800something and 1700something is really 300 years apart.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
7  arkpdx    2 years ago
continues to haunt us. 

Doesn't haunt me. I had nothing to do with it nor did any of my family. Many in my family were virtual slaves under the Russians and the Germans and most of my family that remained in Europe were killed by the Germans in WW two. When do they send me reparations

The Romans held slaves from all over their empire. I don't see the Italians handing out any checks. 

If you feel so bad about how some people were treated in this country hundreds of years ago, by all means, give them any or all of your personal funds to the if it will help your guilt. 

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
7.1  afrayedknot  replied to  arkpdx @7    2 years ago

“… if it will help your guilt.”

The only guilt we should all share is in diminishing the horrors of slavery and how those horrors still reverberate to this day.

Are you responsible? Am I responsible?…of course not.

Any guilt should fall to anyone of us who denies our history, anyone one of us who minimizes the ramifications of that denial, and anyone of us who refuses to acknowledge we can and must do much more…at the very least in addressing the myriad issues left too long ignored. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.1.1  cobaltblue  replied to  afrayedknot @7.1    2 years ago
Are you responsible? Am I responsible?…of course not.

Great comment. Really great comment. You house a beautiful soul.

 
 
 
afrayedknot
Junior Quiet
7.1.2  afrayedknot  replied to  cobaltblue @7.1.1    2 years ago

I accept it as intended with great appreciation…in acknowledgement of the depth of character from which it comes.

Peace or piece, and hopefully both coming your way this holiday season…whichever and whatever may give you the most pleasure…

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
7.1.3  arkpdx  replied to  afrayedknot @7.1    2 years ago

My history has nothing to do with slavery. It is too bad that some people were forced into it but that was over 150years ago it is time to get over it. 

I'll tell you what. I will agree to give a payment to anyone that can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were born in this country as a legally owned slave. All the others whining and crying about slavery can just shut the "F" up

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
7.1.4  arkpdx  replied to  cobaltblue @7.1.1    2 years ago

It is BS. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.1.5  cobaltblue  replied to  arkpdx @7.1.4    2 years ago

It is BS. 

Of course it is to you, arkie. Of course it is. 

We haven't interacted in a while, arkie. Hope you're doing well and looking forward to having a very Merry Christmas. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  afrayedknot @7.1    2 years ago

There are white people, let's call them MAGA for convenience sake, who want to extoll the good things about Americas past (founding fathers, military victories, church going) but want to disregard and even deny the bad things about Americas past. Most Americans are stunningly ignorant about the real history of this country. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.1.7  cobaltblue  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.6    2 years ago

Most Americans are stunningly ignorant about the real history of this country. 

Unfortunate, but true.
 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
7.2  Gsquared  replied to  arkpdx @7    2 years ago

Since you apparently don't know, Germany paid tens of billions of dollars in reparations after World War 2.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.1  cobaltblue  replied to  Gsquared @7.2    2 years ago

Shhhh. Don't confuse arkie with facts.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @7.2    2 years ago

Really? Germany paid billions in cash to distant descendants of those who actually suffered from Nazi crimes?    

Prove it. Or are you just making a silly apples to garbage comparison? 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
7.2.3  arkpdx  replied to  Gsquared @7.2    2 years ago

Well I never got compensated for my family members that were killed by them. I want my share. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.2.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.2    2 years ago

That right: People who actually were the victims of a government program of genocide were compensated by roughly the same generation of Germans.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.5  Sean Treacy  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.2.4    2 years ago

For a true comparison, Germany would have to wait another 80 years or so to start.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.6  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.2    2 years ago
Really? Germany paid billions in cash to distant descendants of those who actually suffered from Nazi crimes?    
Germany marks 70 years of compensating Holocaust survivors
September 15, 2022

The organization that handles claims on behalf of Jews who suffered under the Nazis said Thursday that Germany agreed to pay approximately $1.2 billion (euros) to Holocaust survivors living around the world in 2023, bringing its total compensation to more than 80 billion euros.

The announcement came as Germany marked the 70th anniversary of the signing of the so-called Luxembourg Agreements, a reparations pact that made it possible for Holocaust survivors to receive a measure of justice for the Nazi persecution of Jews during World War II.

Cite

In an article dated October 2021, it seems additional German funds were set aside for additional reparations.

800

Cite

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.7  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.6    2 years ago

Yes, Germany paid reparations to a class of actual victims. 

Germany did not wait 160 years to pay their victims’ great great great children for the suffering their ancestors actually endured.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.8  cobaltblue  replied to  arkpdx @7.2.3    2 years ago

Well I never got compensated for my family members that were killed by them. I want my share. 

Those bastards! Send them a reminder postcard.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.9  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.7    2 years ago

Germany did not wait 160 years to pay their victims’ great great great children for the suffering their ancestors actually endured.

This is G's comment:

Since you apparently don't know, Germany paid tens of billions of dollars in reparations after World War 2.

So have Germans paid tens of billions of dollars in reparations or not? Maybe they would have had to wait for 160 years if they had not paid to the actual victims. Reparations that are being inquired about now is due to any relative, ancestral or otherwise, not receiving any reparation whatsoever. 

So, yes. German has paid tens of billions of dollars of reparations. Just because you changed the goal post from the original content doesn't mean G was incorrect. His comment as intended is absolutely, unequivocably correct. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.10  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.9    2 years ago
This is G's comment:

G's comment was responding to arkpdx's "demand" for reparations for the damages Germans caused to others in his family, not him. So Germany paying reparations to some of the people they hurt does not address his point.

No one said Germany never paid any reparations to anyone. 

He's pointing out the Germans, Italians etc have not paid reparations to the descendants generations after hurting their ancestors. 

So have Germans paid tens of billions of dollars in reparations or not? 

Of course. 

 if they had not paid to the actual victims. 

Exactly. They paid reparations to some of their actual victims. That's not nearly the same thing as waiting four or five generations and giving cash to people based on others' suffering. 

 Just because you changed the goal post from the original content 

The only people who moved the goalpost were you and G2.  The whole discussion is about paying reparations to people who were never personally  injured, not actual victims. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.11  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.10    2 years ago

The only people who moved the goalpost were you and G2.  The whole discussion is about paying reparations to people who were never personally  injured, not actual victims. 

That renders the argument moot. You cannot know what people would/could recoup 160 years from now. The people asking for reparations now are arguing that since their relatives never received compensation, it stands to reason someone familial should receive what is/was due. Whether that's wrong or right is not the argument here. The fact remains, per G's comment, that billions were given as reparations. Let me mark my calendar for 160 years from now, I'll send you a reminder, and we'll see if your argument holds true in 2182.  In the meantime, Germany has paid reparations in the tens of billions to Holocaust survivors and their families. Exactly as G said. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.12  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.11    2 years ago
ou cannot know what people would/could recuperate in 160 years from now.

Why would that matter?  

Again, this whole discussion is about paying reparations to people who never suffered themselves on behalf of their  distant ancestors.  That Germany paid reparations to some of the people they actually injured is not in  dispute nor is it relevant to the discussion about paying people reparations for what their distant ancestors went through.  

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.13  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.12    2 years ago

Again, this whole discussion is about paying reparations to people who never suffered themselves on behalf of their  distant ancestors.  That Germany paid reparations to some of the people they actually injured is not in  dispute nor is it relevant to the discussion about paying people reparations for what their distant ancestors went through.  

Sean. If it's about distant relatives, how can that be proven? That was one of your comments. Prove it, you said. How can something that has not yet happened be proven? We would have to wait 160 to prove that. I'm so damn tickled right now. Not a hard guffaw, but chuckling best describes it. 

G's comment is true. Germany has paid tens of billions of dollars in reparations. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.14  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.13    2 years ago
If it's about distant relatives, how can that be proven

Good question.  I agree, on top of everything else, it's a logistical nightmare to pay people for something that was done to their ancestors.  What if the had ancestors on both sides? Do they just pay themselves repartations? 

. Prove it, you said

I did.  He didn't.  That's not what your link says either. Germany is not paying reparations to distant descendants of WWII victims. 

We would have to wait 160 to prove that

Well, no.  If Germany decided to pay reparations to the GGGrandchildren  of WWII victims today, you would have a point. 

G's comment is true

Again, no one is claiming Germany did not pay any reparations. Germany is not, however, paying reparations to distant descendants of WWII victims.  Nor are they paying reparations to the descendants of victims of the 30 years war. You've fallen for a simplistic  debating trick where someone makes a statement that while true in of itself, doesn't actually address the issue at hand.  

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.15  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.14    2 years ago
I did.  He didn't.  That's not what your link says either. Germany is not paying reparations to distant descendants of WWII victims. 

It cannot be proven. If you would have left off the "prove it", we wouldn't be having this conversation. Some people from WWII are still with us. If you would have used logic instead of knee-jerking a reaction and phrased what you meant in a more cohesive manner, it wouldn't be as ridiculous an argument as it appeared.

All that said, G's comment is correct. 

Have a great day!

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.16  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.14    2 years ago

You've fallen for a simplistic  debating trick where someone makes a statement that while true in of itself, doesn't actually address the issue at hand.  

Sean. Stop. Silly and not worthy of you. You asked for proof of something that cannot yet be proven. It's not 160 years in the future. We'll just have to agree that we vastly disagree. 

All that said, G's comment is correct. Tens of billions of dollars in reparations have been made to the victims of Nazi transgressions. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.17  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.2    2 years ago
distant descendants of those

There are yet to be distant descendants. Cannot be proven until there are. If you filed this argument in court, it would be dismissed with prejudice.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Professor Principal
7.2.18  Gsquared  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.2    2 years ago

Your comment is completely irrelevant, nonsensical and utterly inane.  You seem to be unable to comprehend both the issue presented by Comment 7 and my response.

Try trolling someone else.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.19  Sean Treacy  replied to  Gsquared @7.2.18    2 years ago
[deleted
 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.20  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.15    2 years ago
It cannot be proven.on

Of course it can. Show me the Germans paying reparations to distant family members of actual WWII victims and it would be proven. 

Some people from WWII are still with us. 

Only a tiny percentage. The overwhelming majority of victims are dead, and have been for a long time. 

ll that said, G's comment is correct.

Lol. Its correct like claiming the earth orbits the sun.  It's fine and dandy, but not really relevant  when the topic is Saturn. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.21  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.17    2 years ago
ere are yet to be distant descendants. Cannot be proven until there are. I

I have no idea what you are even attempting to argue here. Please phrase it more cohesively. . 

e. If you filed this argument in court, it would be dismissed with prejudice.

Why would I ever do that? The idea of paying reparations to the distant descendants of those who sustained actual  injuries is idiotic. Take that argument up with those who think reparations for slavery are rational. 

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.22  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.21    2 years ago

Smoke and mirrors Sean. 

You're wrong and G is right. You hate being wrong and will go through ridiculous machinations to make yourself appear credible. It's silly and sad sorta. But amusing. The subject is closed because you're wrong. Again. Keep trying to save face. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.2.23  Sean Treacy  replied to  cobaltblue @7.2.22    2 years ago
[deleted]  
 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
7.2.24  cobaltblue  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.2.23    2 years ago

Just keep rooting for your team. It doesn't  change reality.  

Meh. Your ignorance makes you totally irrelevant. Amusing, but irrelevant.

Have a good evening!

 
 
 
independent Liberal
Freshman Quiet
9  independent Liberal    2 years ago

I dated a girl in college who had a Dirty Pirate fetish. It was news to me really, I had no idea people were into that sort of stuff. I suppose i lived a very sheltered life as a child. I never felt right about it.

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
9.1  cobaltblue  replied to  independent Liberal @9    2 years ago

I dated a girl in college who had a Dirty Pirate fetish. It was news to me really, I had no idea people were into that sort of stuff. I suppose i lived a very sheltered life as a child. I never felt right about it.

Okay, that's adorably funny! 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
9.2  charger 383  replied to  independent Liberal @9    2 years ago

That should have been interesting

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
9.2.1  cobaltblue  replied to  charger 383 @9.2    2 years ago

That should have been interesting

You arrrrrrn't kidding!!

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Guide
9.2.2  Split Personality  replied to  cobaltblue @9.2.1    2 years ago

I've heard of Dirty Sanchez, maybe he was a Pirate?

 
 
 
cobaltblue
Junior Quiet
9.2.3  cobaltblue  replied to  Split Personality @9.2.2    2 years ago

I've heard of Dirty Sanchez, maybe he was a Pirate?

Oh no you didn't!! 

But out of disgusted curiosity ... American version or British? Asking for a friend.

 
 

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