Abu Rusha also expressed criticism of Hamas when asked about the fuel situation in Gaza. "First, they take care of their own cars and jeeps and then distribute them to the people. They refuel from full containers for themselves," he said.

I thought that the generators that power the air pumps for the tunnels was first priority.

I thought that the generators that power the air pumps for the tunnels was first priority.

Hamas propaganda is that the people there have shortages of food, fuel, electricity and water. But Gaza has no shortage of any of these. How could that be?
Its because when supplies came into Gaza, Haza takes most of them and stores them in its tunnels.

I thought that the generators that power the air pumps for the tunnels was first priority.

It is-- because obviously they need air to breathe. But after that, they need food, etc.

You must know that there are some members of NT who are not going to like this news, and in fact may not even believe it.  It will be interesting to see if they comment.

They were interviewing some of the protesters on the news yesterday.  They asked someone what he thought about the atrocities Hamas committed.  He said "Hamas is controlled by the Israelis".  The interviewer could not believe what she heard so asked again and got the same response.  I kid you not.  I am very concerned about the youth of today.

Ever since I was a teenager I felt that the American education system was inferior.  I've told the story many times, and if you've not seen it, I'll post it again.

I have not seen it.  I know very little about the Canadian school system.

Ever since I was a teenager I felt that the American education system was inferior. 

There isn’t an American education system, there are state and local education systems of public, private and home schools.  Some good, some not.

Of course, that makes sense, education is a provincial matter in Canada as well.  My knowledge of what it is in America was from my interacting with teenagers from Buffalo, so I guess I've been equating the American system with the New York State one, but I would think that the one in New York State would be pretty indicative of the ones in North America.  Having graduated from a private school myself but able to compare it with most of my years originally spent in a public school system, I agree that a private school education could be superior. 

I should save this in my document file, but here goes.  When I was a teenager I often spent part of my summer vacation at Crystal Beach, an Ontario beachside resort town with a theme park that boasted a famous Ferris wheel  on the north side of Lake Erie just west of the Niagara River so it was close to Buffalo.  Many kids from Ontario would mix with teenagers from Buffalo and we were all friends.  When we heard the kids from Buffalo bitching about the final marks they got that were 96% or 97% when THEIR friends got a final score of 100% it was beyond belief for us when we had to work our asses off to reach or slightly exceed an honours mark of at least 75% and only the most brilliant kids would get 90% and we were NOT less intelligent than the Buffalo kids.  When I think back to that, I believe that the education system in America just HAD to be too easy, and not challenging enough for the kids to REALLY learn how to think.  Although that may have coloured my opinion about American education from that point on, from what I've read and seen more recently I don't think the American system has improved that much. 

Interesting.  I am from Rochester, about an hour and a half from Crystal Beach.  We went there every year for years.  The roller coasters were legendary back then.  One of them (the comet I believe) is now in a park near Lake George.  I can't speak for Buffalo education system but I can say in Rochester there was a huge difference between Public schools and Private (catholic) schools.  Many of my friends went to public schools and I was always amazed at how far behind they seemed.  The reason I went to a private school was because the number of people going to college from the private schools was way higher than the public schools.  My father went to college through the GI bill and thought a college education was very important.  I am talking in the 70's where going to college was not looked at the same as today.  Fast forward to today and I will say I have been involved with my kids education and have been very happy with it.  They went to public high school and private colleges.  They graduated from undergrad in 2010 and have said they didn't learn any of the bullshit that that seems to be prevalent today. One of my kids is a first grade teacher and is pretty happy with it.  Interesting that she has taught in a private school and public school in New Jersey and says the Public schools are much better, at least in New Jersey. 

Thank you for reminding me about the Comet.  My memories are from the mid-1950s but perhaps due to my age, fading.  I had forgotten that the roller coaster was what was famous and I don't even know if there even WAS a Ferris wheel.  I just knew that SOMTHING was famous in the amusement park. We used to hang out around the Loganberry stand - do you remember that unique delicious drink?  

From what you said, I guess the level of the education system varied a lot, but at least we all know that although there may be pockets of excellence, generally it sucks. 

As I seem to recall the comet was the third longest roller coaster in the hemisphere at the time.  I do remember Loganberry.  I also remember not being able to find it in Rochester but I did take some home with me every visit (along with fireworks that were also legal in Canada).  I even went to Crystal beach several times a year during and after college.  Crystal Beach during the day, then to Toronto for a few hours, last call in Buffalo(bars closed at 4 AM) and breakfast somewhere outside of Buffalo.  Needless to say I would only make it as far as Toronto now and call it a day and find a hotel.  Of course I would see the Zoo and check out the Hanna Barbara amusement park if it was still open the next day.

Yeah, Crystal Beach was the only place where you could get Loganberry.  I was born and grew up and got my B.A. in Hamilton, which is about half-way between Toronto and Crystal Beach, and then spent the rest of my time before coming here in Toronto to attend law school and then continue with my law practice.  I've only been to Rochester once, stayed over in a motel there on the way back from our family pilgrimage to Cooperstown's BB Hall of Fame, and when in Rochester we toured the Kodak plant.  If you can believe it there was a big hot tub spa pool in the middle of our motel room.  However I've been to Buffalo many times and even dated a girl there who I took to the Town Casino.  I watched a minor league game at the baseball stadium there and spent time in the Albright Art Gallery, but I never missed eating the famous spicy Buffalo wings. 

Palestinian terrorist groups have a long history of using innocent civilians as shields.

Any local bank robber in KC would do the same thing.

They all need to be taken down like the rabid dogs they are.

I felt that the American education system was inferior.

I don't know about inferior, but a case could be made that it has been compromised by those pushing the extreme end of identity politics, especially those who would somehow view what Hamas has done as "justified" or "necessary".  That takes some extremely warped thinking IMHO.  But it isn't just here in the US, it has gone global, in Canada and in much of Europe.

HERE is a good article about the "Pro-Palestinian" protests in Ottawa 10 days after the Hamas attack, which the writer really found were more accurately described as Anti-Israel, or even Pro-Hamas.

“Hamas is not a terrorist,” the Lebanese man went on. “ Hamas, they are defending Palestinians . Hamas, they are labeled as terrorist from the Western media.”

When I asked about reports of Hamas murdering and kidnapping Israelis, the Senegalese woman said, “It’s all misinformation.”

How blind does someone need to be to make such statements as it is well reported what Hamas had done and that they even recorded and celebrated the atrocities.  It has been clear and easily corroborated, even by captured Hamas terrorists, that Hamas is using the Palestinian people as human shields, how is that "defending" them?!  It is also clear that Hamas did nothing but squander all the billions in aid sent into Gaza since 2007 on building tunnels, bunkers and weapons rather than making life better for Palestinians in Gaza.   The claims that Israel is the aggressor and are engaging in "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" are ridiculous when the only party in this conflict threatening genocide is Hamas and those who support them, and they are VERY vocal about that. The reasoning of most of the protestors simply defies reality.

At the bottom of the article is a clear and cogent post from a fellow by the name of Matt Pepper.  Really worth a read!  He says,

Attempts to apportion blame in this conflict become moot at some point and here’s why: The moment you embrace kidnapping, torture, rape and the murder of civilians, infants, the elderly, women and children as a valid means of expressing your grievance or achieving your goals, you have foregone the right to ask sympathy or support from any civilized person or state.

Fifty years ago Golda Meir famously said “If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence, if the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.” It was true then and it remains true. It’s a statement that no honest person can dispute. And yes, it matters.

The claims that Israel is the aggressor and are engaging in ethnic cleansing and genocide are ridiculous when the only party in this conflict threatening genocide is Hamas and those who support them, and they are VERY vocal about that. The reasoning of most of the protestors simply defies reality.

Chalk it up to yet again another failure of critical thinking.

Chalk it up to yet again another failure of critical thinking.

But it seems worse than that, the statements they make reflect a lack of any sort of knowledge of the full history of the region or even current events.  It seems based almost entirely on anti-Israel propaganda.  It is like a mass hysteria that plays right into the hands of Hamas. 

Mosab Hassan Yousef (the son of one of the Hamas leaders who defected to the US) insists that such protests, which started immediately after the Oct 7 attack were orchestrated and encouraged by Hamas and Iran even before the attack, via social media manipulation, particularly via TikTok and other such online media.  He says, "That's what they do.", and he should know as he saw such tactics with his own eyes growing up as a son of Hamas!  That would explain why when these protestors are interviewed, they use the same rhetoric that Hamas uses when denigrating Israel, and it lacks a basis in facts that anyone who did their due diligence as far as the history of the region and even more current events would have.

What a mess! We as a species have never needed an appeal to reason more than we need it today!

I'm seeing a lot more now than I did 2 days ago when I made the comment that is under fire here.  Remember that I am limited in the news sources I can access and that China is not pro-Israel, especially since China has been working so hard to develop relationships with the Arab/Muslim world and the media here is not particularly as "neutral-intending" as the government is. 

"But it seems worse than that, the statements they make reflect a lack of any sort of knowledge of the full history of the region or even current events."

Is that not a good reason for my opinion of American education, as is TiG's comment about the failure of critical thinking?

I'm seeing a lot more now than I did 2 days ago when I made the comment that is under fire here. 

Understood.  Not under fire from me my friend.  Just wanted to relay what I have been seeing/reading the last few days.

Is that not a good reason for my opinion of American education, as is TiG's comment about the failure of critical thinking?

Sure, but it isn't just American education, it is global.  The protestors in the article to which I linked were in Ottawa. Hell even the people in Gaza and the West Bank who have been interviewed don't know or won't acknowledge the history of their own region.  They only know the propaganda and what they have been told their whole life about Israel from their leaders.

Critical thinking is not possible without the full set of facts and information.  Although if I'm a college student and I am encouraged to protest against a country who was just viciously attacked in the most barbaric of ways by a known terrorist organization, shouldn't I do my due diligence and look further into that situation before I angrily start throwing around slogans and denigrating the victim?  I certainly would!  Then again I am 60 years old and I have learned better over the course of my life.  So it is our job (those of us who are longer of tooth) to educate those who don't have the knowledge that we have accumulated over many years.  These students aren't stupid, they just don't have all the information, and have grown up in a world where ideology (sometimes extreme ideology) and propaganda has replaced well-rounded education, critical thinking, and the desire to learn for oneself.  And yes, I think our education system has failed these young minds in that regard. It is what happens when we endeavor to tell people what they should think rather than teaching them how to think.

I know.  

Agreed.  I'm more than a generation longer of tooth (what few I have left) than you but I'm lucky that my kids are highly educated with successful careers, are fully aware of the history and ARE capable of thinking critically to the extent of being in a position of guiding others. 

Ever since I was a teenager I felt that the American education system was inferior. 

That's definitely true. And its part of the problem.

But over the last few years there's another factor-- the Internet. Social Media. Anyone can post an article, or even a video (Now called "a reel"), and make it look professional, often like its a trusted news source. 

Yet another stepping stone to disaster.

Although if I'm a college student and I am encouraged to protest against a country who was just viciously attacked in the most barbaric of ways by a known terrorist organization, shouldn't I do my due diligence and look further into that situation before I angrily start throwing around slogans and denigrating the victim? 

Exactly.

Having graduated from a private school myself but able to compare it with most of my years originally spent in a public school system, I agree that a private school education could be superior. 

I totally agree. And that even goes for the states that people think have "the best" public school systems.

(And then there are states such as Mississippi....or for that matter Florida! )

shouldn't I do my due diligence and look further into that situation before I angrily start throwing around slogans and denigrating the victim? 

Of course, unfortunately, people don't always do what they should.

I am very concerned about the youth of today.

I've noticed similar things. (And gotten to know some "younger types" on Social Media-- some as young as late 20s, but most are in their 30s. There's so much they don't know-- but of course they think they are very informed).

Then I started wondering-- was I that stupid when I was that age? (Its possible....)

my kids are highly educated with successful careers, are fully aware of the history and ARE capable of thinking critically to the extent of being in a position of guiding others. 

There are people like that (although they seem to be in the minority). I think in some cases its because they had great parents, in other cases they had an unusually good school experience.

I heard an ad from a teachers' union. Part of it was:

If you child can read-- thank a teacher! (Or maybe it was "Blame a teacher"?

But my thought was-- what if your child can't read? (Sould we blame a teacher for that?)

Although if I'm a college student and I am encouraged to protest against a country who was just viciously attacked in the most barbaric of ways by a known terrorist organization, shouldn't I do my due diligence and look further into that situation before I angrily start throwing around slogans and denigrating the victim? 

Yes-- that's definitely a "should". But of course many don't do what they should do. 

(And I could be wrong, but I think social media has been making it worse.)

Its a classic case of "the blind leading the blind".

Rear Admiral Hagari pointed out that the underground facilities are used by Hamas leaders to direct their operations. There is a tunnel that leads to the hospital, allowing entry to the Hamas command without passing through the hospital itself.

The IDF is equipped with American bunker busting bombs and ground-penetrating radar.

The Hamas tunnels should not be a problem.

The IDF is equipped with American bunker busting bombs and ground-penetrating radar.

But isn't there the possibility that they might bomb a tunnel that has hostages in it?

Of course.  I already posted a reply to that same comment elsewhere to say that the problem could be that the tunnel is lined with hostages, or civilian women and children so that if they DID bomb Hamas could say that Israel killed them and the media absolutely make sure that they emphasize reporting the killing of children - they announce those numbers specifically every single day.  

The Hamas tunnels should not be a problem.

I think a factor that makes the situation more difficult is that there are so many of them (the tunnels). Hamas has been preparing for years.

Additionally, within the hospital, there is a Hamas internal security control center, which is heavily staffed with armed personnel on a regular and emergency basis. From this location, both terrorist operations are directed and rocket fire is coordinated, along with the direction of forces.

Kind of doubt that Netanyahu cares about collateral damage.

Hamas should have known about the IDF and global response.

October 7th was a stupid thing committed by religious fascists.

Iran is now attacking American bases. We are responding.

American citizens are now arming themselves more than ever.

Seems no Jew or Arab is safe in America these days.

SIGH..........

Seems no Jew or Arab is safe in America these days.

Early on there was a horrible incident where someone murdered an Arab-American boy from an immigrant family. But I don't believe there have been many other incidents of violence against Arabs in America. 

Maybe not, but antisemitism is another story:

US Antisemitic Incidents Up About 400% Since Israel-Hamas War …

Hamas should have known about the IDF and global response. October 7th was a stupid thing committed by religious fascists.

They did know. It was part of the plan to stir up Sympathy from those incapable of logical thought. Hamas did know that the IDF et al would respond in a way that they could then turn towards their objective because of the ways that Hamas had positioned itself intertwined with the Palestinian people. There is no way to easily dislodge the terrorist group without doing damage to the infrastructure that the Palestinians use or the Palestinian people themselves. In attempting to destroy Hamas, the IDF must also destroy the people who get in the way, whomever or wherever they be. IMO, this whole cluster started by Hamas with their October 7th massacre is part of an escalatory attempt to instigate conflict on a wider scale to be rid of Israel, because that is the expressed purpose of Hamas. As far as I have seen, this plan has worked well so far, with the opinions of the regional people being set against the Israelis.

With the continuation of hostilities in the current mode, slinging bombs and missiles towards Gaza in an effort to minimize Israeli casualties and blow up critical Hamas infrastructure, will need to be phased out for the much more dangerous operations to actually root out the terrorists. 

War and killing sucks ass. 

Iran is now attacking American bases.

There's an ongoing debate as to whether Iran wants a full scale "shooting war" or just to continually harass.

And most (all?) of these incidents are by Iran's proxies-- not Iran itself. (Even thought my guess is they are encouraging it).

The biggest one is Hizb'Allah, which is on Israel's northern border. But if that escalates hugely, (and then Israel retaliates) it could blow up to a situation that really hurts Lebanon. Many Lebanese would be really pissed at Hizb'Allah, And H. doesn't want that (they are a political party in Lebanon).

It's no use exposing the war crimes that Hamas has used to carry out its terrorist attacks and shield itself from retaliation because the world still supports and loves the Palestinians generally including Hamas and blames Israel for everything.  Now with the 4-hour pauses the rest of the world has forced upon Israel, a greater number of IDF soldiers will die because Hamas is gleefully thanking the bleeding hearts of the world to help them prepare and set traps, etc.  

It's no use exposing the war crimes that Hamas has used to carry out its terrorist attacks and shield itself from retaliation because the world still supports and loves the Palestinians generally including Hamas and blames Israel for everything.

I think that's mostly true. But some people are starting to become annoyed with the large pro-Palestinian demonstrations, which occasionally become violent.

I've not seen anywhere that anyone is upset about the pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Possibly Jewish folk who were attacked and killed?

[Deleted.  Buzz is not the topic.]

[Deleted]

I've not seen anywhere that anyone is upset about the pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

You're kidding Buzz, right?

That was 2 days ago.  And I meant the media, especially here. I think it's starting to turn now, but not here. 

I've not seen anywhere that anyone is upset about the pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Oh I don't know about that Buzz.  There are some countries in Europe and other parts of the world that are talking about banning such demonstrations, particularly those that are less about being pro-Palestinian and more about being anti-Israel or even pro-Hamas.  I don't think banning such protests/demonstrations will go over well here, the best we can do is counter protest, or better educate those who can't see the truth and the reality of what is happening. 

Trust me, my own daughter and some of her cousins jumped on the "pro-Palestinian" bandwagon because they listened only to one of their college professors or to the popular online sources of anti-Israel propaganda aimed at college students and the younger generation. Many are just following blindly without doing their due diligence on history and the actuality of current events. Once you sit down and talk them through it, show them the history, show them the horrible facts, the reasonable ones will see the light (much like Mosab Hassan Yousef did).  I wish there were some way to shine that light on the middle east, and especially on the people of Gaza who continue to support terrorist groups like Hamas because the only information they get is the propaganda.

See the article I quoted at #1.2.12.

As I said, I posted that comment a couple of days ago and my access to the media is limited, while the media here is in my opinion biased in favour of the Palestinians. 

I've not seen anywhere that anyone is upset about the pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

I think maybe some of the French are (they've had a few nasty attacks by Islamic terrorists),

It's no use exposing the war crimes that Hamas has used to carry out its terrorist attacks and shield itself from retaliation because the world still supports and loves the Palestinians generally including Hamas and blames Israel for everything

One effort that may counter the Hamas propaganda (If only a little): There has been a film made that shows some of the horrors of the October attack on Israel. Rapes, dismembering bodies, beheadings. The compilation was shown at least once at a venue in Los Angeles. And I believe it will soon be shown in many other places. 

Because of the sheer barbarism shown, its very powerful.(There will probably be more articles about this soon).

After the mainstream media has gone overboard to both provoke and report the demonstrations and protests favouring the Palestinians they would not want to contradict themselves by reporting those atrocities.

[Deleted]

Everybody in this room is a mass murderer.

Everybody in this room is a mass murderer.

I'm not a mass murderer-- but then again, I'm not in that room! 

Whoa-- wait a minute. What room are you referring to? "This room"-- does that mean the one you are in currently?

If so, how many people are actually in the room you are in? And of those people who are in that room-- are they really all mass murderers?

Arvo..no surprise there..a leopard doesn't change its spots...

Like the way the Palestinians who do speak out and blame Hamas for this destruction are silenced very quickly and not seen or heard from again...

As one Palestinian women said.. It's  all because of the Hamas dogs...

How right she is and the innocent suffer for it...

Meanwhile Hamas is stealing fuel from Gaza's hospitals.. showing their true colours as usual...

As one Palestinian women said.. It's  all because of the Hamas dogs...

Occasionally some Gazans speak out aainst Hamas, but of course they have to be careful . . .

Very careful...

Until they start evicting Hamas from hospitals, schools etc and using them as human shields...it will never change... much to the Palestinians detriment..

Arvo..no surprise there..a leopard doesn't change its spots...

As many here know, sometime I'm feeling a bit mischievous. So once I typed:

A Leopard doesn't change its stripes..

A few people missed it but some noticed right a way lol!

And the supporters and sympathizers of Hamas here stay strangely silent.

Where has anyone supported Hamas on NT?

They may not have actually supported them because if they did I would have led a delegation to have them banned from this site.  However, they complained about civilians being killed notwithstanding that they have been used by Hamas as human shields and that they have allowed Hamas to hide among them and have tolerated Hamas governing them. 

Israel has finally rightfully decided to once and for all eliminate Hamas from the face of the Earth rather than having to continue attacks and rockets and missiles and incendiary balloons and kites to be fired at Israel forever, and in order to do that they have to be able to destroy every last Hamas member, and unfortunately for the civilians who did NOT tolerate the existence of Hamas, there is bound to be collateral damage. 

Has there ever been a war where there was NOT collateral damage, including the ones YOUR nation was involved in?  I've explained above the consequences of Israel allowing a pause, but sure as hell, no matter how much pressure will be brought upon Israel by the bleeding hearts of the world, there will not be a cease fire until every last Hamas person is dead.

Umm not detracting from the article but a paragraph would be good Buzz... otherwise it is system over load and I haven't got my glasses with me at the moment...you don't have to be 80 odd to need to them..😬

Israel have always done their own thing regardless of what other countries or leaders think....

One of their traits I admire..no they never will eradicate Hamas but they will make a hell of a dent in it..

Sorry, is that better?  

They might not be able to TOTALLY eradicate Hamas but they will decimate it, disarm it, and make sure it no longer controls Gaza.  There is also Islamic Jihad.  There will always be terrorist groups forming, unfortunately.

It seems the majority of those that say what Israel must do never say anything about Hamas letting go of the hostages first. 

Not one more civilian would die or even be injured if Hamas were to surrender.  Everyone demands what Israel must or should do, but nobody says that to avoid further bloodshed Hamas should surrender.  It's as if people WANT the war to continue. 

[Deleted]

That was exactly how I felt when I wrote it two days ago.  After I've determined the things that Hamas has done I feel twice as strongly about what I said then.  What a STUPID comment to say it sounds like a Chinese propaganda piece when China is more in favour of the Arab nations than it is of Israel, and their media doubles down on it.  But the ignorance of THAT comment of yours is surpassed by your final comment.  Now, does this sound like me?

[Deleted]

Where has anyone supported Hamas on NT?

Perhaps the people in the room cjcold is referring to in comment 4. 2. 2. ? After all he did say they are all mass murderers. (My guess he's exxagerating-- even if only a little...???)

I am still shocked by the acts of Hamas such as placing infants in ovens and burning them to death.

How does a human brain get so fucking warped to even think of such an act?

At one point I posted that they were animals, but then shona1 pointed out to me that animals don't do the things to each other that Hamas did on Oct 7 so from then on the nicest thing I could call them is monsters.  I don't think that even the Barbarians of history were so....so....what word is there to describe it?  

Inhuman.

Even "inhuman" is too much of a euphemism.

Savage.

Maggots...more of a suitable word as you can't get much lower than that..

better.  I just looked up a lot of synonyms and I can't find a word sufficient to describe them.  Imagine - putting a live baby into an oven and cooking it.  How could any human being do something like that?  How can any member on this site not realize that Israel must destroy Hamas even if it means collateral damage?

Atrocity?   

There might not be a word for it, Buzz.   Since for most human beings, that act is unthinkable.

Call me cynical, but I think it's a very human thing to do. I don't think people quite understand how easy it can be, mentally and spiritually, to fall so far. Some pretty awful things have been done by ordinary people throughout history. Both as individuals, groups and nations. If a person doesn't have a firm, moral basis upon which they live their lives, regardless of what may come, anyone can fall into such darkness if they do not guard their heart against it. All it takes is the right circumstances, the right push, for some. 

I'm neither Jewish or Israeli, but I believe I have a sense of your frustration, anger and pain. I feel those things myself, for different reasons, maybe, maybe not. In any case, I can feel my own hate trying to take over and it would be so easy to let it. I can't though, out of fear of becoming what I hate. Know what I mean? 

In the end, I think what separates us from these terrorists is we keep what's right in mind and don't abandon it. We don't try to justify our response based off their actions, in other words, but what we believe should be the actions of a humane human being in light of what they have done. If we don't, then there's probably not that much that separates us from them. 

I agree that we are individually capable of becoming the kind of monsters that we might witness from time to time (think Charles Manson) but a whole political movement made up of thousands is to me, at least, a whole other story.

Call me cynical, but I think it's a very human thing to do.

Cynical.   There.

It is certainly within the realm of our biology to do this.   History has shown that human beings are capable of incredible levels of violence and indeed extremely sadistic acts.

But most do not behave this way.   The super majority of our species, I will bet, cannot see themselves ever committing a horrific act such as placing an infant in an oven and burning it alive.

But most do not behave this way.   The super majority of our species, I will bet, cannot see themselves ever committing a horrific act such as placing an infant in an oven and burning it alive.

But in many Arab cultures most do.

On the day they burned babies alive the invaders from Gaza wore cameras on their helmets to record the horrors! They sent the images back to Gaza where they were praised.

There were numerous other atrocities that day. They took a live pregnant woman and slit her open, took out the foetus and stabbed it numerous times. They captured a man and gouged out his eyes. There were mas rapes of young girls ...the list goes on and on. (And its all well documented as the terrorists recorded it).

They sent the images back to Gaza where they were praised.

Amazing.

Cynical.   There.

Nicely done : )

But most do not behave this way.   The super majority of our species, I will bet, cannot see themselves ever committing a horrific act such as placing an infant in an oven and burning it alive.

I wouldn't be too sure. The German people were as modern as anyone at the time, yet look at what they did. How did that happen? Today, in India, while arguably much less educated than the German's who would go on to do horrible deeds in the WWII era, one can easily find horrors perpetuated on others. Their own government appears to be taking the country towards religious fascism, as is Turkey, which seems to want to revive the Ottoman Empire. Mao's Red Guard. Look to our own youth and the summer of love in 2020. Students and young people, who have life easier than the vast majority of the planet were setting fires, throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at police. How easy it is to take such things further. It doesn't take a lot to push people the wrong way and so often they easily follow along. 

Probably most would never put a baby in an oven. Probably. But people are closer to committing horrors than they realize. History shows us this over and over again. The only defense against it, in my opinion, is that each individual has to be aware of this and have lines they will not cross, no matter the pressure from peers or society. They have to be aware, all the time. 

The problem lies when you start getting a lot of people together. Individually most people are perfectly fine and would never do something as horrible as what Hamas did. They would never throw a Molotov cocktail, or commit any sort of genocide. Hell most people won’t even say anything mean to you. 

But once you start getting people together their collective intelligence and decency plummets. maybe it is the idea that they are just a face in the crowd and won’t be held accountable, or maybe something happens to us and we just subconsciously start to surrender our critical thinking abilities to our base instincts. I don’t know. But I do know there is nothing more dangerous than a crowd of people.

But once you start getting people together their collective intelligence and decency plummets. ... But I do know there is nothing more dangerous than a crowd of people.

Yeah, crowds. I think you've nailed it. 

maybe it is the idea that they are just a face in the crowd and won’t be held accountable, or maybe something happens to us and we just subconsciously start to surrender our critical thinking abilities to our base instincts. I don’t know

I've been thinking about what you said here since I read this earlier. It probably isn't just one thing that is responsible, but I'm probably going to be thinking about it for the rest of the day. That, and how to avoid getting sucked into a crowd determined to do the wrong thing. What's my responsibility in such a situation? Things like that. I kind of already know, I suppose, but would I have the courage? 

Maybe some of the Palestinians will start thinking really hard about what they are doing as a group. Maybe some who just want their kids to grow up without having them used as shields or cannon fodder in the ranks of Hamas will break away from the group think and try something new. 

A maggot is just the larval stage of a fly that helps to clean up the dead. A necessary piece of a healthy ecosystem.

[Deleted]

Hamas are just sick humans with a fanatical homicidal worldview born of perceived persecution. [Deleted]

If you are called a maggot you are a low life..the lowest of the low...thought an American would know that..

Very apt for Hamas..just let me know if you want me to translate anything else..

They all have low IQ's much like Trump and his MAGA fascist followers, which make them all dangerous as hell!

 

[Deleted]

Substitute ‘lets go Brandon’ with trump and there we go…spiraling the drain, spitting invective, and spinning out of control…

Nah that's not taunting..🤣

"Thinking an Aussie would know that"...😁😁

That's just CJ putting footus in mouthus..

I will supply him with an Aussie dictionary one day..🦘🦘

Morning Tig..just on the radio here how some babies died in a humid crib in Gaza at a Hamas run hospital..

My first thought was that is really sad but at least they died in a humid crib and not in an oven...

Every time I think of that I cringe.  It is the most savage, inhuman, atrocious act by a human being in my memory.

I cannot even put myself I that position. Honestly I could never physically do that. 

Every time I think of that I cringe.  It is the most savage, inhuman, atrocious act by a human being in my memory.

As mentioned, it wasn't just that single act-- there were numerous atrocities. But much of the media either hasn't reported on that or downplayed it.

So Gal Gadot got various film clips and put them into a songle movie, which will be played to select audiences-- reporters, politicians, etc so the world can know what happened:

As mentioned, it wasn't just that single act ...

Of course not, but that was the most egregious of those I heard.

IMO it should be screened PUBLICLY so the world can see what the protesters and demonstrators are supporting, and the pro-Palestinian university groups can experience the disdain of the majority. 

You’re not wrong. I would love to see these idiots supporting Hamas and the Palestinians, demonizing the Israelis, watch and try to justify the actions on Oct 7. 

I would also love to ask those who can see that footage and still try to excuse it what they would say if I did that to their family members. I definitely get the feeling that all of a sudden they would find a line.

All Hamas should be dead yesterday!

One still has to wonder why they did it?

Still haven't heard a valid reason.

They had to know what the response would be.

Did Hamas (Iran) think to start WW111?

That would be even more stupid.

Guess there's no telling what fascists will do.

Still trying to find "babies in ovens". Link?

WARNING...very grim photo..

Just google it CJ... there is information galore.. 

Not the baby that was in the oven but one of many burnt by Hamas..🥀🥀🥀🥀

I believe Jewish Telegraph Agency has a pretty good rating by MBFC.

An Israeli first responder recalls tending to the body of a baby burnt in an oven

The baby came from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, one of the communities hardest hit in the attack. It arrived in a small bag whose contents told a grim story: a tiny body, burnt and swollen, with the telltale marks from being pressed against a heating element. 

“They took the baby and put it, literally, in a kitchen oven,” Moskowitz said in a video testimony recounting the assessment of professional staff at the base. 

LINK -> jta

Guess there's no telling what fascists will do.

And remember-- it isn't that they are merely politically motivated fascists--- because they are religious fascists. 

And religious fascists are often the most extreme. (I think it may be due to the fact that they are taught-- and believe-- that God (Peace Be Upon Her!) is on their side.

Did Hamas (Iran) think to start WW111?

I'm not sure that this will start a World War. (Neither am I sure it won't),

"God (Peace Be Upon Her!) is on their side."

With God on Our Side
by Bob Dylan

Oh my name it ain't nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I was taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side

Oh, the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh, the country was young
With God on its side

The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War, too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I was made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side

The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side

The Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now, too
Have God on their side

I've learned to hate the Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side

But now we got weapons
Of chemical dust
If fire them, we're forced to
Then fire, them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side

Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war

infants in ovens

Haven't read about that. Link please?

It is easily found:  nysun

Evening.... Humanity..

Where are you, when we need you...

🥀🥀🥀🥀

The New York Sun is a far-right wing propaganda outlet well known for just making shit up.

Granted, the shit that happened on 10/7 was evil personified and I wish I could have been there with a futuristic space weapon that could have stopped it all, but I was in Kansas at the time.

Even if there was an infant found in an oven, who's to say the parents didn't put it in there for safe keeping?

It's just that I hate non-verified stories that are designed to further enrage emotions (not that there weren't enough documented atrocities on that day).

Just saying, never believe anything from the piece of shit New York Sun! 

I don't think they would have turned the oven on..

The New York Sun is a far-right wing propaganda outlet well known for just making shit up.

I've seen identical stories from several other news outlets.

And BTW, one might assume that if it happened, hamas would want to hide it. But the opposite is true-- it seems they were attempting to terrify the Israelis. 

I don't think they would have turned the oven on..

Well, using some of the "logic" that's been expressed here-- perhaps if the parents did put the kid in the oven for safe keeping-- its stands to "reason" that they didn't want it to be cold so they turned the oven on to keep it cozy!

Ahhh huh...just like the freezer would be another good option??

Exactly, probably just made up shit.  After all, even the Nazis had the decency to only put dead ones in the ovens.

I just gave one link out of many, as a favor to you, by doing a quick Google search.  

Like I said, there are all sorts of links; pick one you like.

There really are people who deliberately blind themselves to the truth.  To them, they will find fault with anything, notwithstanding its veracity.

One can see that every single day on social forums.

 After all, even the Nazis had the decency to only put dead ones in the ovens.

The Nazis put people in ovens?

That's hard to believe-- I won't believe it unless you can supply a link to prove it!

(And it better not be from The Sun!)

Doesn't look like pizza to me.

How does a human brain get so fucking warped to even think of such an act?

Suggestion-- when you have some time, read the Koran. IMO it explains how.

How does a human brain get so fucking warped to even think of such an act?

I remember reading about some of the bizarre and exceedingly cruel punishments Saddam Hussein inflicted on his enemies.

Well, actually in Gaza several years ago. For starters, if they find out someone is gay, the traditional punishment is to throw them off the roofs of high buildings. 

if they find out someone is gay, the traditional punishment is to throw them off the roofs of high buildings. 

They won’t be able to do that now for sometime.

They won’t be able to do that now for sometime.

So that's why the Israelis bombed all those buildings! (I bet all the Jews are secretly Queer!)

So that's why the Israelis bombed all those buildings! (I bet all the Jews are secretly Queer!)

And many of the ones who aren't actually "biologically queer" probably identify as queer (which is even worse!)

This should not be a surprise since terrorists all use civilians as shields and hide their position and weapons among them.

terrorists all use civilians as shields

All of them?

Shouldn't be a surprise but for some, apparently it is.

Detained terrorists admit Hamas using hospitals to shield themselves

Anybody with a semi functioning brain knew this was happening.  It's not like this is a new tactic.  It's how terrorist groups work.  

My thoughts, though I know it won't be welcomed here, is innocent people caught up in this mess that is the Gaza Strip will continue to die and their lives matter even if Hamas is deep under the grounds beneath their feet!

I am being consistent in that people being good should not die. That said, if you going to kill them anyway - why wait? Just total the whole damn 'Strip.'    /s 

And see where this ends up once and for all! 

That said, if you going to kill them anyway - why wait? Just total the whole damn 'Strip.

That's quite an assumption on your part (that Israel is trying to kill all the civilians in Gaza).

What are you basing your opinion in?

I'd like to see the answer to that as well.  IMO anyone who criticizes the IDF, that put 300 litres of fuel outside Gaza's main hospital for the hospital's emergency use that was then confiscated by the Hamas militants for their own use, has been more careful about limiting civilian casualties in so many ways, dropping leaflets calling for civilians to vacate where they will bomb to destroy Hamas and its operatives, facilities and weapons, make phone calls like the one to the dentist referred to in another article that was posted on this site, send emails, do more to protect the civilians than any nation has ever done throughout history as declared by Col. Richard Kemp CBE, a former commander of British troops in Afghanistan. 

But the attacks by Hamas and Islamic Jihad must be stopped once and for all and unfortunately when Hamas uses the Gazans as human shields, and IMO are supported by so many Gazans, you know, the ones who danced in the streets and shared candy on both 9/11 and Oct 7, what else can the IDF do to protect ITSELF.  I just read that some IDF soldiers, including a TV series crew, were killed by a Hamas booby trap.  Hamas and Islamic Jihad must be eradicated WHATEVER the cost.  The civilian casualties are NOT the fault of Israel.  They are the fault of Hamas.  Israel and its IDF no longer have any choice.  Put the pressure on Hamas instead.  Demand that Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrender.  That will stop the bloodshed.  But no, the UN and the media and the protesters and so many governments and their leaders won't do that, will they.  After all, it's those JEWS!!!!!!!

I am not stating that Israel is "trying to kill al the civilians in Gaza" - it never crossed my mind. I am discussing the attitude on these columns that show a lack of compassion for Palestinians who can not get out of the way of this war, because they have no where to flee.  If/since these discussions continue mercilessly about them and their failures of wherewithal-then I sarcastically remind those who write such things that their is a once and for all solution to the problem of Palestinian civilians and Hamas. 'Nuke them.'  

The world will howl. But, we all know that the international community can be ignored, because it's just the "bleeding hearts" that are screaming.

Then why don't you and people like you who feel the same way DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  Try to get a movement started to demand that Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrender, because Israel is not going to stop until it wins this war, until Hamas is eliminated from any control or power or ability to wage another attack, and Israel is determined to reach that result.  If Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrender, it will be the end of any bloodshed and damage of any kind in Gaza.  Surely that is what you want, is it not?  Get together with everyone you know who feels the way you do, everyone on this site who feels the way you do, and get that movement going.  That's how movements start.  Don't just lament and criticize, but do something to reach the goal you wish. 

I am "together" with everyone on this site. I am not hiding from this article, but writing in plain sight of everyone on it.

And, I want you to especially know that I condemn what Hamas did on October 7th, but I am going to be consistent in defending LIFE both Jewish and Palestinian.

Why? Because this is a messed up life-long set of political and earthly circumstances for both peoples. Killing innocent people who are powerless (and unarmed) won't help Israel's brand on the world stage. How can it?

Furthermore, 'shopping' around for nations that have killed civilians in the past (they were condemned for what they did to civilians too) won't justify making/adding to the 'count' of innocent lives loss 'today.'

And if I must state the obvious. The United States has an "indefinite" amount of goodwill going for it in the world even when it does stupid, regrettable, and grave actions across the same. Can Israel say the same? I think not. (And I want the best for Israel out of this.

Finally, maiming and killing unarmed men, women, SENIORS, DISABLED, HOSPITALIZED and children is not a winning long-term strategy! 

I do not support Hamas and I have no opinion on a cease-fire. I 'rise' repeatedly to defend the powerless and defenseless civilians against bombs and bullets. Civilians all.

Where did I accuse you of hiding?  Some of us realize that there are only two possible ways to end the bloodshed, and notwithstanding some impossible dream for something different such as Klaatu and Gort arriving in their flying saucer, there is no other way to do it.  

1.  Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrender

2.  Israel continues what it is doing until it accomplishes its goal.

Why are there no demands that Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrender, especially since their defeat is inevitable?

You're asking me to 'conclude' what is decades of distinct conflicts between two people? I can't. I won't. My concern, my reason for writing is:   not Hamas or Islamic Jihad. It is UNARMED CIVILIANS—have I not been clear all these many articles?

You must know that there are some members of NT who are not going to like this news, and in fact may not even believe it.  It will be interesting to see if they comment.

1.2    Buzz of the Orient    replied to    Krishna   @ 1       3 days ago

You're right! You did not use the word "hiding" - I did. Well, here I stand, present and accounted for on this article.

One more thing. I really wish the Palestinians can muster the wherewithal to push Hamas out into the streets or at least take steps to get back from the organization. But that may not be in the offing any time soon if at all. But, that is my wish and I don't live in the M/E so it may just be me and my. . .aspiration.

Your comment is confusing.  Yes, I said it, in response to the seed Krishna had posted.  So What?  I stand by what I said.  Why do you make a thing out of it - could it be because you thought I was specifically referring to you?

Sure. I wrote it. I stand by it.  I have given this tremendous thought.  And though I understand Israel's dilemma with 'conflicted' Palestinians and Hamas in, through, and around them (though I am not there - so it is understood from what I read) I will defend the defenseless wretches who can't help themselves against powerful foes and powerful frenemies. Civil societies need to know that calculated killings of innocent and unarmed people is not longer acceptable.  Of course, people will get in the way and be killed. But cavalierly and regularity and routine: Not in my name.

Hamas needs to come out or Israel needs to go in and get Hamas if they won't. Standing afar off and bombing and shooting sophisticated high-powered weapons into people who are in something like a 'fishbowl' is wrong on so many levels. And it is a total disregard for their, our mutual humanity.

Finally, indiscriminate bombing can do a great deal of damage or death to the hostages—no one really knows where they are underground and a 'strike' could kill one, several, or all of them instantly (as the case may be). 

"Civil societies need to know that calculated killings of innocent and unarmed people is not longer acceptable."

I hope you're just referring to what Hamas did on October 7th because if you are accusing Israel of CALCULATED killings of innocent and unarmed people then I have nothing more to say to you and I see no purpose in reading one more word you have to say on any topic whatsoever.  

You can get upset if you must. I can't help that.

But, what else can you call it if/when one acknowledges that unarmed civilians are present at a site that is about to be bombed and bomb it anyway. It's a calculation; a factoring in of the their loss in the larger scheme of the war. Or, euphemistically: 'Collateral damage." It's a nice couple of words which signify dead men, women, and children who were not the object of an attack.

[Deleted] 

And, "civil societies" is plural. It's time all societies stop killing innocent people to get bad/evil-doers they are after, in my opinion. Sure there will be accidental killings of the innocent, but is it an "accident" if someone points in my direction and pulls the trigger or drops a bomb or bombs? It will take an investigation to be sure.

The United States has an "indefinite" amount of goodwill going for it in the world

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But it seems to me that that's not necessarily true. A lot of people around the world do not have a lot of positive feelings toward the U.S>

Why? Several reasons. 

One is that they feel we meddle to much in the affairs of other countries.

Another is that they feel America is run by large corporations that exploit people (and especially that we exploit other countries) for our own financial gain.

And some people are just jealous.

It's time all societies stop killing innocent people to get bad/evil-doers they are after,

Excellent idea!

(Now why didn't I think of that???)

I do not support Hamas and I have no opinion on a cease-fire. I 'rise' repeatedly to defend the powerless and defenseless civilians against bombs and bullets. Civilians all.

This is what escapes you. You state that you have no opinion on a cease-fire but want Israel to stop civilian deaths. That is like stating you have no opinion on the death penalty but want the state to stop executing criminals. The only way to stop the deaths of civilians is with a cease-fire. If there is another way that doesn't involve a cease-fire and doesn't harm civilians you have yet to enlighten us as to what that method would be, even though you've been asked numerous times to do so. You basically say it's not your job to figure it out. So, in the end, the only plank in your platform is not doing things that gets civilians killed or otherwise harms them. No actual solutions concerning Hamas, getting the hostages back without caving to Hamas or solving Israel's security problems. Peachy. 

Thank you, Drakkonis.  I gave up yesterday.

All true, I suppose. But what is the "prevailing" opinion of the United States around the world? BTW, do you dispute that the U.S. has "sufficient" goodwill going for it across the world, yes or no?

You state that you have no opinion on a cease-fire but want Israel to stop civilian deaths. That is like stating you have no opinion on the death penalty but want the state to stop executing criminals.

That comment is specious.

First, I can have no opinion on a cease fire (and I do), as it simply means that others can decide how/when/where/IF one is held without my participation. 

Secondly, there are alternative ways to stop killing civilians indiscriminately by lessening the use and where they are used of IMPRECISE "dumb" bombs and missiles.  

Thirdly, you have been provided evidence of our country's  'demand' (comment 12 below) partially displayed here:

"We do not support striking a hospital from the air, and we do not want to see a firefight in the hospital where innocent people, helpless people, sick people are simply trying to get the medical care that they deserve," Kirby said.

And, importantly, you should know that your country ALSO DOES NOT SUPPORT CEASEFIRE for reasons some here have been 'vocal' about. 

So I don't have to capitulate to this display of grandstanding and piling on. 

The U.S. government authorities have express views similarly to my own. That some here choose to disregard whose doing the talking/policy-making in D.C. is not problematic for me. Many conservatives don't value anything a liberal or democrat says or writes anyway - just because.

I could write more, such as why is a Christian who 'mouths' the words, "God is love. . . ." but can not be found expressing love for people simply because of personal bias, who says God protects the weak, infirm, sickly, and children. . . but is "okay' with mass casualties of innocent death without compassion - but it may not do any good.

Just total the whole damn 'Strip.' 

Like our allies did to Dresden in WWII?

The  bombing attack on Dresden , Germany, stands among the most controversial Allied actions of  World War II . From February 13 to 15, 1945, 800 bombers dropped some 2,700 tons of explosives and incendiaries, decimating the German city.

Tens of thousands died.

I am being consistent in that people being good should not die. That said, if you going to kill them anyway - why wait? Just total the whole damn 'Strip.'     /s 

Sarcasm tag is important, contextually . 

 Germany, stands among the most controversial Allied actions of  World War II .

This is not Germany, nor a world war, and definitely not World War II. Besides:

The bombing of Dresden was a historic benchmark that demonstrated the power of strategic bombing. Critics say that the military value of the bombing did not justify Dresden’s near destruction and that the city could have been spared, like Rome, Paris, and Kyōto. Given the high number of civilian casualties and the relatively few strategic targets, some even called the bombing of Dresden a war crime, though both the British and the American militaries defended the bombing as necessary. britannica

The thing speaks for itself. It happened. The thought process for us who are alive now is have we learned nothing about the value of innocent life since. Nations do not have to kill innocent people and afterwards offer platitudes and resources as recompense.

Now, I view this as digression. We understand the value of human life when it is our own and dear to us; others love their human life and families too. Doom the guilty and leave the innocent out of it. That's my only point. I don't understand why it is being pushed back against (and mocked by some here). 

Israel showed a video today of the tunnels under one of the hospitals. The captured weapons including suicide vests there was electricity and it at one point held some of the hostages. There were real bathrooms and kitchens. The head of one of the Hamas terrorist's home was a couple of hundred yards away from the hospital and next to the Hamas house was a school.

What's the use, Kavika?  Hamas will say its a fake picture produced by Israel and everyone will believe them just as they believed Hamas about the strike on the Gaza City hospital that "killed" 500 people. 

just as they believed Hamas about the strike on the Gaza City hospital that "killed" 500 people. 

BTW some newscaster pointed out that the number given for the people killed in that bombing was 500. But they announced that shortly after the bombing.

The person reporting that asked the question-- how could they know the number so quickly? There wasn't enough time from the bombing to the mention of 500 dead to count all those bodies.

(Anyway there was later evidence that showed Israel didn't do that bombing)

And I just watched a news video of an IDF soldier in a room in the hospital with the hiding place and a whole lot of rifles that were hidden there.  It was broadcast by CGTN which happens to be biased towards the Palestinians so it MUST be genuine.  I never knew there was a need in a hospital for that kind of thing. 

Kirby: U.S. intelligence shows Hamas using hospitals for military activities

What they're saying:

Kirby said Tuesday that U.S. intelligence indicates the group has a command center in Al-Shifa, but stressed that the Biden administration does not want the facility or the civilians taking shelter there to be harmed.

• "We do not support striking a hospital from the air, and we do not want to see a firefight in the hospital where innocent people, helpless people, sick people are simply trying to get the medical care that they deserve," Kirby said.

Civilian infrastructure like hospitals and other medical facilities are protected during armed conflicts by the laws of war, according to the Red Cross .

• But such locations can lose those protections if they are being used to carry out "an act harmful to the enemy," which could imperil health workers and civilians receiving care.

The big picture: Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of putting civilians in Gaza at risk by intentionally building tunnels and storing weaponry near civilian infrastructure.

• In this war and in the past, attempts by Israel to destroy tunnels from the air have often resulted in civilian casualties.

• The Biden administration has publicly pressed Israel to do more to protect civilians' lives in Gaza as it continues its air and ground operations against Hamas.

• Israel's government has resisted calls for a ceasefire but has begun temporary humanitarian pauses to allow Palestinians in northern Gaza to get supplies or evacuate to the south.

axios

---

The thing speaks for itself. Israel is using what it calls "precise, targeted operation' at the Gaza hospital. It will likely be IDF ground troops going into the hospital according to CNN NewsNight with Abby Phillip .

Civilian infrastructure like hospitals and other medical facilities are protected during armed conflicts by the laws of war, according to the Red Cross .

"Protected by the Red Cross"?

Well no wonder this has been such a humane war! Kudos to the Red Cross!

/sarc

Civilian infrastructure like hospitals and other medical facilities are protected during armed conflicts by the laws of war, according to the Red Cross .

A correct understanding of the quote is highlighted for your consideration. 

Personally, I don't understand what this pushback against the death of innocent people is about! Mostly anybody should accept that loss of innocent life is grievous and a time for sadness.

No and no. Hamas is indefensible and a terror regime. In my opinion, Hamas are guilty and should be charged with war crimes appropriately! Moreover, two things can be right at the same time: Hamas is guilty and deserve its due.  Innocent people caught up in this ongoing complex war should be separated from Hama (as perceptually as possible and it is doable) and 'saved' not bombed and fired upon.

Morning....yesss but the Palestinian people have two choices...

They either support Hamas or they are against them..

When all this mess started even the ordinary Palestinians seemed to get caught up in the blood letting and it became a feeding frenzy..

The film coming out of Gaza with the Israeli hostages been dragged, beaten, spat on etc certainly did nothing for their cause...

Even one of our reporters commented on the frenzied attacks etc...yes it wasn't 2.5 million Palestinians doing it, but hundreds certainly were. They were father's, uncles, brothers etc and were revelling in it all and sanity went out the door..

He said the crowds were celebrating and the atmosphere was electric and it was kill the Jews by any means...were the Palestinians thinking at the time of "what is to come"... no apparently not..

The innocent ordinary Palestinian civilians would know and expect retaliation for the atrocities committed by Hamas and some of their own in the aftermath of the raid...

And again they have two choices... support or turn on the Hamas maggots that have just turned their lives into a living ongoing nightmare..

So now will they finally turn on Hamas and celebrate that or continue walking into the flames of Hell???

       " In my opinion, Hamas are guilty and should be charged with war crimes appropriately"

How do you propose to get Hamas to trial ?

How do I propose to get Hamas to trial?  Me? I don't have a court or jurisdiction! The Hague is the international court as I understand it. Or do you mean this: Hamas will not 'get' to court because the Hague has no authority to bring them without other nation states assisting (I think)? Or, do you mean that since they can not be brought to justice in a court Hamas should be destroyed?

Let me be clear. I have no position on Hamas. What Hamas did by killing civilians is INDEFENISIBLE to me. Now, that being said, if they do end up in the Hague they can defend their own worldview (good luck with that!).  Moreover, Hamas' survival as individuals/group/organization/government is of no direct or indirect interest to me!

So you're trolling?

Me? I don't have a court or jurisdiction!

Well in that case you must get one!

So you've got jokes. I guess that is going to have to be okay.

Aren't we supposed to discuss the topic under discussion, and not discuss other NT members?

Then the use of military force is required.  Because of the way Hamas is fighting here will be casualties, on the  Good side, bad side and others.  Just the way it is

Well, Texan did address me as "You." And I replied as "me."

So you've got jokes? 

Aren't we supposed to discuss the topic under discussion, and not discuss other NT members?

@12 the thing speaks for itself. 

Hamas' survival as individuals/group/organization/government is of no direct or indirect interest to me!

Then why are you making so many comments about them?

Because you and others ask! See how hard I work to answer questions and its not appreciated. Can't win for losing the saying goes! 

[Deleted]

Mostly anybody should accept that loss of innocent life is grievous and a time for sadness.

Are you said about what the Assad regime has done-- and still is doing-- to civilians in Syria? If so-- are do you consider that to be grievous and a time for sadness?

If not, why not?

Please learn what trolling is, and how to properly use it.

Many people are saying that there is no "proper" use of trolling. That inherent in the concept of "trolling" ...is that there is no "proper" use of it.

(I myself don't have a dog in the race, but am just mentioning what many people are saying-- and no, I'm not gonna mention any names!)

But here's my personnel opinion: I agree with what Charger said (in comment # 12 1 13):

Then the use of military force is required.  Because of the way Hamas is fighting here will be casualties, on the  Good side, bad side and others.  Just the way it is   [has value!]

war should be separated from Hama (as perceptually as possible and it is doable)

I agree. However it should be pointed out that "we" happen to live in areas where Hamas is not committing atrocities. Those that live in Israel, however, are not safe from Hamas' terror.

(And as Egypt also borders Gaza, there have been occasional Hamas terror attacks on Egyptians as well.)

Well, since you get to determine what is off-topic here I will reply to this.  All my life I have been sad about the death of innocent people, including the devastation of men, women, and children in Syria. They die in 'rubble.' And, sometimes I think to myself how it must feel to die alone and not even fully understand why life does'nt/has'nt worked for your benefit.

Always-always. It's such a waste of talent, 'texture' in society, and. . . LIFE. That said, once a life has taken its last breath it can not be brought back, so we move on. Hoping for better. . . next time. 

I feel the same way about all people. . .including the majority of conservatives in this country who discounted my life in one way or the other since I was born! I do not wish any of them death - not even Trump. I will eventually go to my grave discounted by such people, but I will still not wish them death! I wish them understanding.

Now then you might say that I over replied: But you asked me about "sad" over civilian death. So I lightly touched on my feelings. Lightly, mind you.

I could tell you more if you wish. . . such as how I personally feel about some SOB involving me and mine (unarmed and not even owning a gun civilians) in a mass shooting of his or her choosing. . . . 

Some folks just can’t seem to get along with suicide bombers.

The innocent ordinary Palestinian civilians would know and expect retaliation for the atrocities committed by Hamas and some of their own in the aftermath of the raid...

When I first learned of the attack by Hamas, one of my thoughts was: "Why are they doing this? Certsainly they must be aware that it will really upset the Israelis and it will cause some strong military actions by Israel. Like "What were they thinking''?

Then I realized-- Hamas doesn'tcare if Israel were to attack them. Why?

1. They consider that a propaganda victory-- much of the world will the Gazans as "innocent victimes">

2. Many Muslims believe that if they die fighting in defense of Israel, they are guaranteed a place in Heaven, (Which has been portrayed as an amazingly wonderful place).

So an Israeli attack is perceived by them as a great victory!

Hamas is in the business of creating Palestinian martyrs.

Krishna, for me, the issue here is this: Hamas did atrocious acts against Israel. Israel responded with a declaration of war.  Israel has the right disposition to bring justice to Hamas. But, Hamas is hiding among the masses of Gaza Strip. It is possible for a uniformed 'group' to pull off their uniforms and insignias and blend in with the civilians heading South. Leaving only the stubborn, hardened, and determined to die terrorists on the 'front.' 

So. . . will Hamas be absolutely destroyed under the above reasoning. Hard to say. Will Israel be safe if Hamas is not 'rooted' out absolutely? Hard to predict.

However, I wish to invoke imagery of the newly innocent dead blood crying from the ground for its. . . justice! Who will fight tor their right to live, love, marry, bear children, live, and die old?

It's the human thing to do. Because we all want someone to cry and fight for us to live in the moment of our crisis of life and death too.:)

BREAKING NEWS:  I just watched the news on TV to see that America has stabbed Israel in the back by abstaining from a UN Security Council resolution demanding extended pauses, a victory for Hamas.

Hi Shona1, I saw some of the video. I know (from tv over the years here in the U.S.) some of the strong feelings and grievances  Palestinians have against Israel. It's a complicated, strained, relationship between two people 'land-locked' together who have to whatever degree possible decided to despise one another and so forth. 

The two people 'toil' together in their affairs, politics, and lands. 

I will write this. I pray for peace for both of these people—together. And I have always prayed and wish the M/E peace. Since I was a little boy hearing about the conflicts and wars there.  I wished for the peace of these people as a youth, as an Agnostic, and especially as a Christian late in life.

I have no 'claim' or allegiance to either side. I am wholly independent of what happens there. Though, I have friends on both sides of this. I owe them the best of me and my views-nothing more.

As for Hamas, the terrorists, I owe such men, women, and if possibly so-children nothing. I owe them nothing. They broke the peace. They massacred unarmed people. They disrespected innocent civilians. They deserve what comes to them from the hand of Israel.

The Palestinians feel wronged. Rightly, wrongly, or partially. They want their land back. It is their main argument.

The U.N. granted Israel its proper territory (to my understanding) and recognition - thus the land ownership/possession matter is as far as the international community reasons SETTLED. 

Now with this outrage the question becomes who deserves to be brought to justice: Hamas or the Palestinians (collective guilt)?

In a nutshell, I say Hamas. The innocent have no obvious ability to destroy Hamas and they are oppressed by Hamas as evidence of their powerlessness. They need outside help—to help them rid themselves of the oppressive terrorists in their midst. And maybe they will be "enlightened" once and for all afterwards. 

I do not know. 

One more thing. There was a powerful exchange on AC360 Tuesday evening show that I would like to 'pull' the video on. I could not get it (yet) and if I do I will post it. Cooper asked two significant questions/statements of his guests: 

1.  Why using the funding Hamas gets from Iran did Hamas not invest in bomb shelters for Palestinians (indicative of a lack of caring about the masses of Palestinians); 

2.  Cooper, himself, detailed an account of how while he as in Gaza (this October/November period), he saw with his own eyes two Hamas 'soldiers" on motorcycles dragging two (dead) Palestinian bodies tied with chains or rope around the area proper. Signifying and instilling further terror in the civilian population.

I will try to locate the CNN interview with Wesley Clark and one other guest whose name escapes me right now. 

Peace.

Shona! It is available now today. . . and I found the interview:

Wesley Clark: Israeli's militarily have to do this

Note : The other guest is Nic Robertson. I want to give him is mention/respect. 

The video is important about how Hamas deals with Palestinian "dissenters" in discussion.

America has stabbed Israel in the back by abstaining from a UN Security Council resolution

Well, another way to look at it is that what the UN does is ultimately meaningless.

I pray for peace for both of these people—together. And I have always prayed and wish the M/E peace. Since I was a little boy hearing about the conflicts and wars there.  I wished for the peace of these people as a youth, as an Agnostic, and especially as a Christian late in life.

Are we to assume therefore that you just as passionately wish for peace in many other military conflicts that are ongoing in the rest of the world?

Yes. However, not many of those nations have the recurring characteristic 'ruptures' for which the M/E is 'legend.'

Krishna, this is not 'fun' for me-let's be clear about this. I am being open and honest with this discussion about where I am on this. I am not sure if you are looking for some agenda from me in regards to the M/E or even U.S. politics. But, I don't have one. 

And yes, now I see the media, national politics, and even international politics are coming around to where I have been all along: Innocent live matters.

But I will tell you this I have always been this way, no one is supplying, lguiding, or leading me to write anything I have so far to date on this subject matter. I hope you can accept that. It's true. If you can not. . . well, it's still true.

Good night.

But it's the optics, Krishna, the effect that resolution will have on the public, and the image of the US backing away from supporting Israel 100%.

Are we to assume therefore that you just as passionately wish for peace in many other military conflicts that are ongoing in the rest of the world?

• The 2nd Congo War killed around 3 million, mostly civilians, 20 years ago.  Nine African countries sent soldiers with about half supporting the rebels in the Congo and half supporting DRC.  Mass rapes, property plundered and after the killing and mutilation, disease and starvation followed.
• The Syrian Civil War which is still ongoing has killed around 1/2 million and displaced 4 million more.  It introduced ISIS to the Syrian people 
•  Darfur conflict is ongoing around 20 years now.  Over 300,000 civilians murdered and several million in waves of terrorism displaced. The killing fields in West Darfur continue today.
• Boko Haram in Nigeria, Yemeni Civil War, Ukraine-Russian War are all killing at greater numbers than in Gaza, but other than the Ukraine, these wars barely make the news.  

Most Americans have little awareness of many of the recent or ongoing conflicts in our world

That is because in those conflicts there is no group quite like Hamas and it's ability to spread hate, violence and misinformation over social media networks.  This Politico report barely scratches the surface with respect to Hamas' propaganda campaign via platforms like Telegram, Tik Tok, and even X and Instagram that filter their way through other platforms and even to mainstream media and college campuses around the world.  Mosab Hassan Yousef (a son of one of the Hamas leaders who has defected to the US) says that this social media propaganda campaign was planned well before the Oct 7 attack, saying, "That's what they do".

Another good article about this at Time HERE .  A crucial point this article makes is that Hamas propaganda is two-faced, in that it uses images from its own violent attack on Israel as a means to gain support in the Islamic world and terrorize Israeli civilians, while at the same time painting itself to the rest of the world as the victim trying to protect the innocent Palestinians from the evils of Israel.  That dissonance alone should be evidence enough that this group is full of shit and nothing they say should be trusted nor supported in any way.