It is both sad and frightening the amount of Americans who actually support Hamas and the Palestinians. They are everything they pretend the right stands for but are actually the real deal. They are quite literally, Nazis, and yet the left holds them up as some shining example of... well, I don't know what and they never say. Palestinians and Hamas hate everything the American left stands for and yet, the left supports them anyway. I just don't get how people could be that stupid.
I would not generalize to 'the left'. I do not think that is accurate.
Americans pin blame for the current conflict on Hamas, which the US government considers to be a terrorist organization. About two-thirds of Americans (66%) said Hamas has a lot of responsibility for the war, while 35% said the same about Israel.
Although I do not have a poll to help us, I would think that only a tiny minority of US citizens are radicalized pro-Hamas (i.e. those who deem the actions taken by Hamas to be justified).
I just don't get how people could be that stupid.
College kids operate on group-think. It is largely NOT an intellectual endeavor.
In general though, I cannot wrap my head around anyone who would actually consider the actions taken by Hamas to be justified.
I can, however, understand why some would think that Israel's response is too harsh. The problem Israel faces is incredibly complex and there does not seem to be a 'nice' solution. But a lot of people naively demand 'nice' even when this is not possible.
It just sucks that even today, human beings can still be as barbaric as the worst in world history. (And here I am referring to Hamas.)
Generalizing to 'the left' indicts everyone left of center (in the USA, given your context).
Yes, because, generally speaking, the left is more prone to do so than is the right or center. I assume that anyone reading my comments knows that there will be exceptions. In any case, it isn't coming from the right or center, so it is appropriate to state it is coming from the left since, in fact, that is where it is coming from.
Yes, because, generally speaking, the left is more prone to do so than is the right or center.
It is indeed more likely that someone doing this is categorically in 'the left'. I am sure you see the difference and I do not care to make a big deal out of this (my mention was in passing). But this is the only part of my comment that you seem to care about.
I assume that anyone reading my comments knows that there will be exceptions.
It is quite common for generalizations to be made in forums. It is not unusual for outrageous generalizations to be made.
In any case, it isn't coming from the right or center, so it is appropriate to state it is coming from the left since, in fact, that is where it is coming from.
That is a different statement than:
"... the left holds them up as some shining example of.."
"... the left supports them anyway"
To be crystal clear, I am most definitely to your political left. And I know of quite a few people here on NT who likewise fit that criteria and the ones I have in mind have been very critical of Hamas.
Trump Adviser Worried He’s Not Getting Enough Credit for Trying to Ruin American Democracy
So what was the Green Bay Sweep ? The plot, Navarro writes, was named after a famous football play designed by storied 1960’s NFL coach Vince Lombardi, in which a Packers running back would pound into the end zone behind a “phalanx of blockers.”
For the 2021 Green Bay Sweep, Navarro writes, Bannon played the role of Lombardi. The plan was to have members of the House and Senate raise challenges to the counts of Electoral College votes from six pivotal battleground states.
“The political and legal beauty of the strategy,” Navarro writes, is that the challenges would force up to two hours of debate per state, in each chamber of Congress. “That would add up to as much as 24 hours of nationally televised hearings,” Navarro writes. The hearings would enable Republicans to “short-circuit the crushing censorship of the anti-Trump media,” Navarro hoped, and broadcast their Big Lie that Democrats had stolen the election “directly to the American people.”
The goal was not to get the election overturned on Jan. 6. Instead, they aimed to create such a spectacle that Pence would be forced to exercise his authority as president of the Senate to “put the certification of the election on ice for at least another several weeks” while Congress and the state legislatures pursued the “fraud” allegations. The dark particulars for how Trump would remain in office after that are not spelled out, and Navarro did not immediately answer an email seeking clarification. But he writes that the Green Bay Sweep was the “last, best chance to snatch a stolen election from the Democrats’ jaws of deceit.”
The problem with the plot was that its success hinged on “Quarterback Mike” — and Pence wasn’t solidly on board.
Why am I bringing this up here? It is relevant to diabolical thinking coming from desperate people (like Hamas) to use whatever means they can—hook and crook!
So, all the 'Sweep' required was Pence's being "solidly on board" and Biden's presidential win would have been swallowed up in controversy so thick that he would be a failed president-elect that may not be seated or illegitimate and totally treated with disrespect by "true" conservatives.
So, frigging stupid!
I am pissed. These stupid people play games with our lives and with the integrity of the system. Hamas may have had their own plan to 'game-out' the West's resolve - not because Western states' citizenry is stupid. It is Western states know that innocent life matters. That you don't just blow up INNOCENT people in the hundreds and thousands just to get-EVEN.
That you lose a lot of good-will for the future.
We all know or presume, or are 'told' through the media that U.S. success in bombs and other munitions etceteras is preeminence - this nation knows how to strike, defend, do offense, and Kill. But you know what is the U.S. greatest strength felt every day around the world: Its' COMPASSION for a world of hurting people- no matter how FUCKED UP their native conditions.
There is one thing which is not being made explicitly clear in writings like this one: What is being discussed really? Colleges protesting Israel's presence in the M/E? People who are speaking up for Hamas terrorists? The killing of innocent unarmed citizens ranging from infancy to old ages and all in-betweens?
Which? All?
Be clear. Because out here in the virtual 'land' it is hard to know who the "leftist" that this article TRIES to 'charge' are!
And frankly, I am sick of the bullshit mocking of good people over poorly articulated "venge" articles and blogs.
It's not coming from the right or center. Wow. Well, there is your process of 'elimination.' It's those weak-kneed liberals (aka: "Leftist) who are once again costing this country all the misery the M/E can bring us!
What a blatantly manipulative thing to write.
Liberals did not drop shoot, fire rockets, throw grenades, set up blockages in Gaza ports or fence in Israel. Or any of a host of other problems that have metatasized in the M/E before and since 1948!
I am sick and tired of self-righteous talkers with an agenda trying to justify the killing of innocent people as some kind of 'collective guilt' fix for people who do wrong using the power they have pulled away from ordinary folks!
The Left is right to bring up its points in discussion. And yes, in some cases the extremists among us speak up and go too far 'out' with their 'fixes.' But, being an opportunist to try to 'steal' the whole of right to one side or to make SHALLOW in-roads to independent voters by demonizing liberals and democrats is FUCKED and DISGUSTING.
. . . .
I'll stop here. I've started cussing for real and that ain't good.
“The left” doesn’t support them. Some on the far left do and have been denounced repeatedly by the rest of us. I have been extremely vocal i my criticism of Hamas and anyone who even suggests they are anything but worthless sacks of shit. Those, especially on college campuses, that support them are fucked in the head and I don’t know if there is any common ground to be found between them and myself. Fortunately they are a minority, albeit a loud and extremely annoying one.
Not all the left, of course, depending on what, exactly, we're talking about. Support for Hamas? Yes, the far Left largely appears to support Hamas, although I wonder how far that trip to that part of the Left is at the moment. Support for the "plight" of the Palestinian people? I don't think one has to go very far left to arrive there at all.
That leads us to the idea that "Palestinians are not Hamas". One needs to ask themselves, to what extent is that true? On one level, it would be hard to argue that Hamas is not Palestinians because Hamas is not filled with Eskimos but, rather, Palestinians. The next question would be, to what extent do Palestinians support or approve of Hamas? Everything I've seen suggests that the majority of them approve of Hamas. I don't say that because I want it to be true. I don't want it to be true. I think about all the money the world has poured into the Palestinians and think about what they could have achieved with it. Many seem to think they could be the Singapore of the Middle east but they're not. Why?
The answer, I believe, is that the West simply refuses to listen when the Palestinians tell us. They see peace as Israel gone and there are none but Muslims occupying the land. They simply will not ever settle for anything less. Period. That is what Israel is fighting against.
I have been extremely vocal i my criticism of Hamas and anyone who even suggests they are anything but worthless sacks of shit. Those, especially on college campuses, that support them are fucked in the head and I don’t know if there is any common ground to be found between them and myself.
I know. I believe I've voted up your comments more than once or twice. I'm certainly glad you feel that way. How do you feel about the Palestinians in general? Not asking to suggest you should feel the same way about them. I don't want to feel the same way about Palestinians as I do about Hamas. Unfortunately, I'm finding that harder and harder to do the more I listen to what average Palestinians are saying. I've looked at a lot of vids. I'm doing a lot of reading. I don't think the average Westerner really understands them, honestly.
Those, especially on college campuses, that support them are fucked in the head and I don’t know if there is any common ground to be found between them and myself. Fortunately they are a minority, albeit a loud and extremely annoying one.
This is the response I gave JR concerning that:
Perhaps more importantly, it's who is protesting on behalf of the Palestinians and Hamas. Tomorrow's leaders being educated by some of the top colleges and universities in the nation. Some of these students will be leading or making policy for the nation in the future. That these students are so willfully ignorant of that which they support doesn't suggest a bright future to me.
Palestinians and Hamas hate everything the American left stands for and yet, the left supports them anyway. I just don't get how people could be that stupid.
Your comment absolutely conflates Hamas with all Palestinians. We already know that not all Palestinians support Hamas. But the better question would be, how many average Palestinians did or would support what was done on Oct 7. I have seen no reporting that suggests that Palestinians as a group were in favor of the Oct 7 massacre, and I seriously doubt if you have either.
I have very little doubt that there are many Palestinians , probably the majority at this point, want to live at peace with Israelis . They just want their own piece of land. Or to be allowed to become full citizens of Israel (Israel will never allow all Palestinians to become citizens of Israel because then Arabs would outnumber the Jews and could conceivably through politics end Israel as a Jewish state. Palestinians have to be a permanent minority and thus the number of palestinian Israeli citizens has to be restricted.) So it is back to a two state solution.
Your type of rhetoric is objectively inflammatory.
Your comment absolutely conflates Hamas with all Palestinians. We already know that not all Palestinians support Hamas.
No, JR, it doesn't. Regardless of whether all, some or no Palestinian supports or identifies with Hamas, my comment stated that both groups hate what the American Left stands for.
But the better question would be, how many average Palestinians did or would support what was done on Oct 7.
I didn't ask a question. However, that is a good question. I saw a few vids of some outfit in Israel that accepts questions from its viewers they would like to ask Palestinians, so that's what they do. I am not sure where these Palestinians are. Certainly not in Gaza but I don't know if these are in Israel or the West Bank. Out of all the responses given to the questions asked, only one was an unreserved endorsement of Israel. That one claimed that the Israel was making life for the Palestinian better, for those who chose to take advantage of it. The rest either supported Hamas or would not answer the question, which I took to mean they were afraid to answer.
I've watched a lot of videos since this began. My impression is that the majority of Palestinians, indeed, the Muslim world, approves of what Hamas did. They may qualify it in some way that attempts to distance themselves from the specific acts but there is always a "but" in there, usually having the right to self-defense and the right to the land that is Israel. The really sad part is that, almost universally, no Palestinian sees the two state solution as valid. Few of them seem willing to even consider the idea. For them, it is all or nothing.
I have seen no reporting that suggests that Palestinians as a group were in favor of the Oct 7 massacre, and I seriously doubt if you have either.
Then I would suggest you're looking at it through your biases.
I have very little doubt that there are many Palestinians , probably the majority at this point, want to live at peace with Israelis .
That is what I assumed when all this started. The evidence I have seen since then suggests otherwise, at least to me. I think most Palestinians want to see not just the elimination of the state of Israel but their deaths as well. I think peace for most of them is a vague concept to most of them. Looking at the history, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion.
They just want their own piece of land.
I do not think that is true. They want all the land and Israel gone. Both Hamas and Palestinians will tell you this if you listen. Many, if not most, on the left won't, though. Instead, they have this narrative that is more important than the truth. They seem to think most reasonable people think like they do and never really try to understand the Palestinian mind, in my opinion.
Your type of rhetoric is objectively inflammatory.
Regardless of whether all, some or no Palestinian supports or identifies with Hamas, my comment stated that both groups hate what the American Left stands for.
Here's what is messed up: The "American Right" hates what the "American Left" stands for too. How about that?!
It's really 'choice' that MAGA and its kindred spirits think it appropriate at this time to reach for the ways to farther DIVIDE people through demonization than to speak about better "angels."
I'd like to see a poll which shows a substantial number of Americans "support Hamas". I dont think such a poll exists.
I haven't seen a poll concerning American attitudes towards this conflict, mostly because I am skeptical of polls. However, the obvious question I have for you is, what do you consider "substantial"? If white supremacists were out protesting in numbers and frequency matching those that are currently supporting Palestinians, would you consider that a substantial number?
Perhaps more importantly, it's who is protesting on behalf of the Palestinians and Hamas. Tomorrow's leaders being educated by some of the top colleges and universities in the nation. Some of these students will be leading or making policy for the nation in the future. That these students are so willfully ignorant of that which they support doesn't suggest a bright future to me.
They don't need to plan, they already won. Did you not see the tens of thousands of protesters and demonstrators in cities all over the world marching in support of them. They have their supporters right here on NT because ANYONE who wants Israel to even pause is their supporter. Even though the only way Israel can possibly ever stop Hamas is to seek out every Hamas rat and pull it out of its lair and exterminate it and the only way they can do that is to NOT stop the invasion of Gaza notwithstanding all the nations including the USA and the UN are calling for a pause to allow Hamas to regroup, rearm and keep pounding Israel with rockets and missiles. THEY WON. GET OVER IT.
I never thought I would read anybody, especially a senior citizen say its okay to kill seniors in a time of war just because. Or women stating its okay for pregnant girls and women to be blow up with their children in their bellies just because. Or men to wish to other unarmed men would die just because.
And before anybody jumps on a high-horse to say I discount the life of Jews on October 7, 2023 in that massacre which launched a war. I do not. I condemn Hamas. But, as King David is written to have said about his child which died by the hand of God. . . we don't have the power to bring them back. They're all gone from us. And we don't know how to get them back.
All we can do is try to do 'better' in seeing about the living. . . why they yet have the breath of life within them!
That is why I speak up more about the living, then I can do so about those who are no longer with us!
If only Hamas would stop hiding behind civilians. Israel is doing the best they can, but as long as Hamas’ strategy is to get as many civilians killed as possible there is no avoiding it. For their own security Israel has no choice.
A ceasefire is not an option. A ceasefire can only work when both sides value the lives of their people, Hamas does not value the lives the Palestinians at all, in fact the only value the Palestinians have to Hamas is how many lives are ended.
I never thought I would read anybody, especially a senior citizen say its okay to kill seniors in a time of war just because. Or women stating its okay for pregnant girls and women to be blow up with their children in their bellies just because. Or men to wish to other unarmed men would die just because.And before anybody jumps on a high-horse to say I discount the life of Jews on October 7, 2023 in that massacre which launched a war.
It is simply amazing how disconnected from reality these statements are. Nobody is, or supports, killing anyone "just because". Apparently, you're the only one who thinks that's the reason. Everyone else, even those who want Israel to pause or cease fire, knows they are doing it in response to Oct 7the and to make sure it never happens again.
That is why I speak up more about the living, then I can do so about those who are no longer with us!
So is Israel. That's why they are doing what they are doing. Making sure the Israelis still alive don't have to go through something like this again while trying their best to keep Palestinian casualties down.
If I were to make a movie about your position on all of this, you'd be the character saying we need to make peace with and value the life of the zombies that are trying their damnedest to eat us all.
Hi Thrawn. I have not advocated for any pause or ceasefire, though I read that pauses are now underway on a daily basis. I only have advocated for the UNARMED INNOCENT Palestinians living in the fight/strke zones under the oppression of bombings and munitions. Otherwise, to me, the fight is what it is.
The whole of your comment is unremarkably silly. But I am getting 'tuned in' to your so-called, high-brow, style of single-mindedness. The problem for you and MAGA is the world can't afford to just make life work for MAGA or its like-minded kindred spirits. We all have a point of view and damn it MAGA will respect the rest of the world. . . one way or another.
How do you know what a senior citizen (other than yourself) thinks? Are you in communication with a senior about it? This senior, is telling you to tell me what he can tell me ? WHY?!
I never thought I would read anybody, especially a senior citizen say its okay to kill seniors in a time of war just because.
Just because? Were you thinking of our Operation Just Cause in Panama in 89-90? There we killed around 300 civilians to apprehend Noriega.
An interesting side note is that thr Army blast him out of his sanctuary (Papal embassy) sonically. They conducted a non-stop bombardment of high volume rock including:
I dont support Hamas Buzz, as I have said directly here ever since this started. I support all of them ending up with a bullet in their head.
Like many others, you conflate support for Palestinian rights with anti-semitism and support for terrorists. What good has the far right government done for Israelis and Jews? Or do you deny that a lot of Israelis blame the far right government for the Oct 7 disaster? I see articles like that every day. ( I look at Israeli newspapers).
Hamas is NOT really the elected government of Gaza
That is a different statement. Hamas is NOT the elected government of the Gaza Strip. Hamas forcibly took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 and have been the governing authority ever since. They are the government of the Gaza Strip.
Do you understand that not all government are elected? That our history is replete with conquests? Indeed, this geographical area in question has a long history of conquests.
I won't pretty it up by claiming they govern.
You are now trying to move the goalposts. You are trying to change this to a question of the quality of their role as governing authority (like: "they are not really do a great job at governing") rather than deal with the fact that they are indeed the current government of the Gaza Strip.
Do the palestinians in the west bank , or in gaza for that matter, have the equal rights the israelis do ?
Deflection. I'm asking you about the rights you believe Palestinians have regardless of what Israel thinks to which you referred in the quoted statement.
Rights are conferred by governments. If they do not have equal rights as the Israelis living in the same area that is because the government withholds them.
According to an Israeli cabinet minister, the Palestinians have three choices , leave Israel, accept the status quo second class citizenship, or be destroyed. When there is a fourth choice they will have "rights".
Stop moving the goal posts, JR. You weren't talking about Palestinians in Israel, which enjoy the same rights as Israelis. You were speaking of the rights of the Gazans and the West Bank. Gaza's freedoms aren't determined by Israel. Less so with the West Bank because of geopolitical considerations. Gaza can be Isolated from Israel and from countries hostile to Israel which is an important consideration concerning the kinds of weapons that can be snuck into Gaza. The same is not true of the West Bank, which shares borders with countries hostile to Israel. If Israel attempted to withdraw from the West Bank in the manner it did from Gaza, Hamas and others would occupy the West Bank before the last Israeli managed to leave.
So, again, what Gazan or West Bank Palestinian rights are you referring to?
Law of Return : The 1950 Law of Return grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights 2 .
The Institute of Middle East Understanding is not a credible source of information. For instance, the site says:
In 1948, approximately 750,000 indigenous Palestinians were expelled from their homeland by Zionist militias and the new Israeli army during Israel’s establishment as a Jewish majority state.
This isn't quite true. In actuality, most of the Arabs in the area were emigrants, just as the Jews were. In 1890, there were about 520,000 Arabs in Palestine and about 43,000 Jews and 57,000 Christians. By 1947, Arab numbers had nearly quadrupled and the Jewish numbers grew to over 600,000. For the Jews, the increase is explained by emigration for the purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland. For the Arabs, their increase is explained by pursuing the economic opportunities presented by the British buildup of the region. In other words, most of them were not indigenous.
Further, of the 750,000 that fled, most left voluntarily because they believed the armies of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Egypt they knew were coming were going to wipe out the Israelis and they would later be able to return to a land devoid of Jews. In actuality, the Jews asked the Arabs in the region to say and not leave, according to one article I read from the UK, which talked about that period. They described David Ben Gurion and some of the Jewish militias as terrorists, so I don't think the writer of the article was biased in favor of the Israelis.
The quote I posted above was the first sentence in their effort to "educate" the reader on who they call the "Palestinian citizens of Israel" rather than what they're actually called in Israel, Israeli Arabs, although that is starting to shift. Point being, if it can't get the first sentence right, what is there to trust with the rest of it?
Arabs who are Israeli citizens have "rights, but they will never all be allowed to become citizens because they would become a voting majority.
They are already citizens. Some have been elected to the Knesset and, as I understand it, one even sits on their Supreme Court. However, I know that there are laws that prevent non-Jews from gaining a majority or threaten the Jewish nature of the country by outpopulating Jews. The question I have for you is, how is that different from any other Muslim country in the ME? Not only do all of them criminalize conversion away from Islam, they actually suppress other religions. And that is hardly a recent development.
In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 CE, Muhammad's successor the Caliph Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the uttering of the Prophet: "Let there not be two religions in Arabia".
While one often hears that Jews fared better under the Muslims than they did under European Christians, that is far from true. In actuality, there seemed to be periods of safety and periods of persecution, ranging from mild to severe, under both. Point being, Muslims have been doing unto Jews far far longer and harsher than anything Jews have done to Muslims.
The West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. They are not independent countries.
They are not independent countries but they are not part of Israel. Israel does not have legal, sovereign ownership of it. They just control it. It has not been annexed.
I was illustrating the power of a minority bloc and the influence they can have.
And if you need this to be played out for you, a minority influence that can secure favorable legislation has the means to grow into the majority if they remain unified.
And if you need an example of that, consider MAGA's influence on the GOP.
Wish it were so, but on this 85th anniversary of Kristallnacht Hamas has succeeded in greatly increasing antisemitism and support for itself in the world of bleeding hearts.
I'm not sure "greatly increasing antisemitism" is the whole picture. Perhaps it has increased but I tend to think it has exposed more of what was already there. It's been said for a while now that the Left (no, not all of them, TiG) is way more antisemitic than the rest of America. Perhaps current events simply makes them feel safer expressing it.
In any case, I believe, I hope, that the great majority of the American people support Israel. What needs to happen here more than anything else is a concerted effort to teach American's the true history of Palestine since the very beginning. They need to be taught just exactly what the ME believes about themselves and Israel. The whole thing. The good and the bad parts of both sides.
Right now, all most people get are the unfair an unobjective perspective of main stream media.
We are no longer in the time of Walter Cronkite and when there was an award for the newspaper that was the most unbiased. Now the internet and social media misinformation, disinformation, media bias and outright lies rule the day. Today there is a new language and the word "objectivity" may as well be retired from the dictionary. Don't even DREAM that the truth will prevail.
As for the fact that the younger generations have little or no knowledge of the actual facts of the past, don't worry, because they will experience the past again. IMO George Santayana had prescience:
Web (Reuters) - Antisemitic incidents in the United States rose by about 400% in slightly over two weeks since war broke out in the Middle East after Palestinian Islamist group Hamas …
Very interesting and well done video, and the speaker is impressive.
The fatal flaw of his argument, in my opinion, is him saying Israel had no choice but to immediately (I believe they started bombing Gaza the next day) hit Hamas very hard and in the process kill thousands of civilians.
The first effort should have been to get the hostages out through negotiation brokered by third parties in the Arab world. Such negotiation, according to news reports, may be happening now , but it comes after all the loss of civilian life in Gaza.
The guy in the video has a main conclusion, that Hamas doesnt care about its civilians and that they actually want their civilians killed to gain sympathy from "the west". So what does he recommend? That Israel accommodate Hamas by killing Gaza civilians.
Israel could have gone at this in a much more gradual and precise way and still terminated those responsible for Oct 7.
I've read that Israel would temporarily "call off the dogs" for humanitarian efforts and provisions to take place if Hamas would release the hostages, but it won't stop the Israelis from seeking out and eliminating Hamas.
All Hamas had to do is release the hostages and Israel would have called off the dogs.
In all honesty we will never know. But there were Israeli military and government officials calling for the destruction of Gaza independent of any call for the release of the hostages.
The first effort should have been to get the hostages out through negotiation brokered by third parties in the Arab world. Such negotiation, according to news reports, may be happening now , but it comes after all the loss of civilian life in Gaza.
That would be to reward Hamas for what they did on Oct 7th. It would be the Israeli government handing Hamas power. Can't you see that? Is it your position that the only relevant factor concerning the hostages is to get them out safely and nothing else matters? Every time Israel takes such a position they are asking Hamas and anyone else like them to do that sort of thing all over again because it would be proven to work. Take hostages, force Israel into doing what they want. You are arguing to perpetuate this sort of thing. You are legitimizing it.
The guy in the video has a main conclusion, that Hamas doesnt care about its civilians and that they actually want their civilians killed to gain sympathy from "the west". So what does he recommend? That Israel accommodate Hamas by killing Gaza civilians.
Because it is the least bad option for them. You keep putting the deaths of Palestinians on Israel instead of where it belongs, on Hamas, and so you, too, submit to Hamas' goals.
Israel could have gone at this in a much more gradual and precise way and still terminated those responsible for Oct 7.
Really? I'd like to hear your plan for eliminating 30,000 to 40,000 terrorists gradually without killing whatever innocent Palestinians there may be.
Your position is quite in line with "We dont want to kill you but we have to. Please understand."
And your position is that all Hamas has to do to defeat Israel is strap infants to their chests and to make sure to bring enough magazines for their rifles.
Thank you, Drakkonis. You have explained that perfectly because I've given up trying to do so. However, I'm sure that for some it will just be "blowing in the wind." Anyway the pressures being brought upon Israel by the rest of the world have brought a small change, although I'm sure it will lead to the deaths of more Israeli soldiers than otherwise.
That would be to reward Hamas for what they did on Oct 7th. It would be the Israeli government handing Hamas power. Can't you see that? Is it your position that the only relevant factor concerning the hostages is to get them out safely and nothing else matters?
An Israeli official and an American official met with a Qatar official today to try and enlist Qatar to broker a deal to get the hostages out. I guess by your lights Israel must want to hand Hamas power.
An Israeli official and an American official met with a Qatar official today to try and enlist Qatar to broker a deal to get the hostages out. I guess by your lights Israel must want to hand Hamas power.
Why do you think that? Most likely, the Israeli official position is that Hamas must release all the hostages before any talk of a temporary cease fire for humanitarian purposes can be granted. Period. If that is the case, why would I have a problem with that? Especially since I think it is the right track?
It is both sad and frightening the amount of Americans who actually support Hamas and the Palestinians. They are everything they pretend the right stands for but are actually the real deal. They are quite literally, Nazis, and yet the left holds them up as some shining example of... well, I don't know what and they never say. Palestinians and Hamas hate everything the American left stands for and yet, the left supports them anyway. I just don't get how people could be that stupid.
I would not generalize to 'the left'. I do not think that is accurate.
Although I do not have a poll to help us, I would think that only a tiny minority of US citizens are radicalized pro-Hamas (i.e. those who deem the actions taken by Hamas to be justified).
College kids operate on group-think. It is largely NOT an intellectual endeavor.
In general though, I cannot wrap my head around anyone who would actually consider the actions taken by Hamas to be justified.
I can, however, understand why some would think that Israel's response is too harsh. The problem Israel faces is incredibly complex and there does not seem to be a 'nice' solution. But a lot of people naively demand 'nice' even when this is not possible.
It just sucks that even today, human beings can still be as barbaric as the worst in world history. (And here I am referring to Hamas.)
I would have to disagree. There is a poison running through Western culture and it seems to be getting worse. I think Ben Shapiro states it best.
Generalizing to 'the left' indicts everyone left of center (in the USA, given your context). That is not accurate.
(I am currently listening to your link.)
Yes, because, generally speaking, the left is more prone to do so than is the right or center. I assume that anyone reading my comments knows that there will be exceptions. In any case, it isn't coming from the right or center, so it is appropriate to state it is coming from the left since, in fact, that is where it is coming from.
It is indeed more likely that someone doing this is categorically in 'the left'. I am sure you see the difference and I do not care to make a big deal out of this (my mention was in passing). But this is the only part of my comment that you seem to care about.
It is quite common for generalizations to be made in forums. It is not unusual for outrageous generalizations to be made.
That is a different statement than:
To be crystal clear, I am most definitely to your political left. And I know of quite a few people here on NT who likewise fit that criteria and the ones I have in mind have been very critical of Hamas.
Why am I bringing this up here? It is relevant to diabolical thinking coming from desperate people (like Hamas) to use whatever means they can—hook and crook!
So, all the 'Sweep' required was Pence's being "solidly on board" and Biden's presidential win would have been swallowed up in controversy so thick that he would be a failed president-elect that may not be seated or illegitimate and totally treated with disrespect by "true" conservatives.
So, frigging stupid!
I am pissed. These stupid people play games with our lives and with the integrity of the system. Hamas may have had their own plan to 'game-out' the West's resolve - not because Western states' citizenry is stupid. It is Western states know that innocent life matters. That you don't just blow up INNOCENT people in the hundreds and thousands just to get-EVEN.
That you lose a lot of good-will for the future.
We all know or presume, or are 'told' through the media that U.S. success in bombs and other munitions etceteras is preeminence - this nation knows how to strike, defend, do offense, and Kill. But you know what is the U.S. greatest strength felt every day around the world: Its' COMPASSION for a world of hurting people- no matter how FUCKED UP their native conditions.
There is one thing which is not being made explicitly clear in writings like this one: What is being discussed really? Colleges protesting Israel's presence in the M/E? People who are speaking up for Hamas terrorists? The killing of innocent unarmed citizens ranging from infancy to old ages and all in-betweens?
Which? All?
Be clear. Because out here in the virtual 'land' it is hard to know who the "leftist" that this article TRIES to 'charge' are!
And frankly, I am sick of the bullshit mocking of good people over poorly articulated "venge" articles and blogs.
It's not coming from the right or center. Wow. Well, there is your process of 'elimination.' It's those weak-kneed liberals (aka: "Leftist) who are once again costing this country all the misery the M/E can bring us!
What a blatantly manipulative thing to write.
Liberals did not drop shoot, fire rockets, throw grenades, set up blockages in Gaza ports or fence in Israel. Or any of a host of other problems that have metatasized in the M/E before and since 1948!
I am sick and tired of self-righteous talkers with an agenda trying to justify the killing of innocent people as some kind of 'collective guilt' fix for people who do wrong using the power they have pulled away from ordinary folks!
The Left is right to bring up its points in discussion. And yes, in some cases the extremists among us speak up and go too far 'out' with their 'fixes.' But, being an opportunist to try to 'steal' the whole of right to one side or to make SHALLOW in-roads to independent voters by demonizing liberals and democrats is FUCKED and DISGUSTING.
. . . .
I'll stop here. I've started cussing for real and that ain't good.
Night, all!
“The left” doesn’t support them. Some on the far left do and have been denounced repeatedly by the rest of us. I have been extremely vocal i my criticism of Hamas and anyone who even suggests they are anything but worthless sacks of shit. Those, especially on college campuses, that support them are fucked in the head and I don’t know if there is any common ground to be found between them and myself. Fortunately they are a minority, albeit a loud and extremely annoying one.
Not all the left, of course, depending on what, exactly, we're talking about. Support for Hamas? Yes, the far Left largely appears to support Hamas, although I wonder how far that trip to that part of the Left is at the moment. Support for the "plight" of the Palestinian people? I don't think one has to go very far left to arrive there at all.
That leads us to the idea that "Palestinians are not Hamas". One needs to ask themselves, to what extent is that true? On one level, it would be hard to argue that Hamas is not Palestinians because Hamas is not filled with Eskimos but, rather, Palestinians. The next question would be, to what extent do Palestinians support or approve of Hamas? Everything I've seen suggests that the majority of them approve of Hamas. I don't say that because I want it to be true. I don't want it to be true. I think about all the money the world has poured into the Palestinians and think about what they could have achieved with it. Many seem to think they could be the Singapore of the Middle east but they're not. Why?
The answer, I believe, is that the West simply refuses to listen when the Palestinians tell us. They see peace as Israel gone and there are none but Muslims occupying the land. They simply will not ever settle for anything less. Period. That is what Israel is fighting against.
I know. I believe I've voted up your comments more than once or twice. I'm certainly glad you feel that way. How do you feel about the Palestinians in general? Not asking to suggest you should feel the same way about them. I don't want to feel the same way about Palestinians as I do about Hamas. Unfortunately, I'm finding that harder and harder to do the more I listen to what average Palestinians are saying. I've looked at a lot of vids. I'm doing a lot of reading. I don't think the average Westerner really understands them, honestly.
This is the response I gave JR concerning that:
Your comment absolutely conflates Hamas with all Palestinians. We already know that not all Palestinians support Hamas. But the better question would be, how many average Palestinians did or would support what was done on Oct 7. I have seen no reporting that suggests that Palestinians as a group were in favor of the Oct 7 massacre, and I seriously doubt if you have either.
I have very little doubt that there are many Palestinians , probably the majority at this point, want to live at peace with Israelis . They just want their own piece of land. Or to be allowed to become full citizens of Israel (Israel will never allow all Palestinians to become citizens of Israel because then Arabs would outnumber the Jews and could conceivably through politics end Israel as a Jewish state. Palestinians have to be a permanent minority and thus the number of palestinian Israeli citizens has to be restricted.) So it is back to a two state solution.
Your type of rhetoric is objectively inflammatory.
No, JR, it doesn't. Regardless of whether all, some or no Palestinian supports or identifies with Hamas, my comment stated that both groups hate what the American Left stands for.
I didn't ask a question. However, that is a good question. I saw a few vids of some outfit in Israel that accepts questions from its viewers they would like to ask Palestinians, so that's what they do. I am not sure where these Palestinians are. Certainly not in Gaza but I don't know if these are in Israel or the West Bank. Out of all the responses given to the questions asked, only one was an unreserved endorsement of Israel. That one claimed that the Israel was making life for the Palestinian better, for those who chose to take advantage of it. The rest either supported Hamas or would not answer the question, which I took to mean they were afraid to answer.
I've watched a lot of videos since this began. My impression is that the majority of Palestinians, indeed, the Muslim world, approves of what Hamas did. They may qualify it in some way that attempts to distance themselves from the specific acts but there is always a "but" in there, usually having the right to self-defense and the right to the land that is Israel. The really sad part is that, almost universally, no Palestinian sees the two state solution as valid. Few of them seem willing to even consider the idea. For them, it is all or nothing.
Then I would suggest you're looking at it through your biases.
That is what I assumed when all this started. The evidence I have seen since then suggests otherwise, at least to me. I think most Palestinians want to see not just the elimination of the state of Israel but their deaths as well. I think peace for most of them is a vague concept to most of them. Looking at the history, I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion.
I do not think that is true. They want all the land and Israel gone. Both Hamas and Palestinians will tell you this if you listen. Many, if not most, on the left won't, though. Instead, they have this narrative that is more important than the truth. They seem to think most reasonable people think like they do and never really try to understand the Palestinian mind, in my opinion.
You're welcome to your opinion, JR.
Here's what is messed up: The "American Right" hates what the "American Left" stands for too. How about that?!
It's really 'choice' that MAGA and its kindred spirits think it appropriate at this time to reach for the ways to farther DIVIDE people through demonization than to speak about better "angels."
And?
And, WHAT?
I'd like to see a poll which shows a substantial number of Americans "support Hamas". I dont think such a poll exists.
I haven't seen a poll concerning American attitudes towards this conflict, mostly because I am skeptical of polls. However, the obvious question I have for you is, what do you consider "substantial"? If white supremacists were out protesting in numbers and frequency matching those that are currently supporting Palestinians, would you consider that a substantial number?
Perhaps more importantly, it's who is protesting on behalf of the Palestinians and Hamas. Tomorrow's leaders being educated by some of the top colleges and universities in the nation. Some of these students will be leading or making policy for the nation in the future. That these students are so willfully ignorant of that which they support doesn't suggest a bright future to me.
They don't need to plan, they already won. Did you not see the tens of thousands of protesters and demonstrators in cities all over the world marching in support of them. They have their supporters right here on NT because ANYONE who wants Israel to even pause is their supporter. Even though the only way Israel can possibly ever stop Hamas is to seek out every Hamas rat and pull it out of its lair and exterminate it and the only way they can do that is to NOT stop the invasion of Gaza notwithstanding all the nations including the USA and the UN are calling for a pause to allow Hamas to regroup, rearm and keep pounding Israel with rockets and missiles. THEY WON. GET OVER IT.
I never thought I would read anybody, especially a senior citizen say its okay to kill seniors in a time of war just because. Or women stating its okay for pregnant girls and women to be blow up with their children in their bellies just because. Or men to wish to other unarmed men would die just because.
And before anybody jumps on a high-horse to say I discount the life of Jews on October 7, 2023 in that massacre which launched a war. I do not. I condemn Hamas. But, as King David is written to have said about his child which died by the hand of God. . . we don't have the power to bring them back. They're all gone from us. And we don't know how to get them back.
All we can do is try to do 'better' in seeing about the living. . . why they yet have the breath of life within them!
That is why I speak up more about the living, then I can do so about those who are no longer with us!
If only Hamas would stop hiding behind civilians. Israel is doing the best they can, but as long as Hamas’ strategy is to get as many civilians killed as possible there is no avoiding it. For their own security Israel has no choice.
A ceasefire is not an option. A ceasefire can only work when both sides value the lives of their people, Hamas does not value the lives the Palestinians at all, in fact the only value the Palestinians have to Hamas is how many lives are ended.
It is simply amazing how disconnected from reality these statements are. Nobody is, or supports, killing anyone "just because". Apparently, you're the only one who thinks that's the reason. Everyone else, even those who want Israel to pause or cease fire, knows they are doing it in response to Oct 7the and to make sure it never happens again.
So is Israel. That's why they are doing what they are doing. Making sure the Israelis still alive don't have to go through something like this again while trying their best to keep Palestinian casualties down.
If I were to make a movie about your position on all of this, you'd be the character saying we need to make peace with and value the life of the zombies that are trying their damnedest to eat us all.
Hi Thrawn. I have not advocated for any pause or ceasefire, though I read that pauses are now underway on a daily basis. I only have advocated for the UNARMED INNOCENT Palestinians living in the fight/strke zones under the oppression of bombings and munitions. Otherwise, to me, the fight is what it is.
The whole of your comment is unremarkably silly. But I am getting 'tuned in' to your so-called, high-brow, style of single-mindedness. The problem for you and MAGA is the world can't afford to just make life work for MAGA or its like-minded kindred spirits. We all have a point of view and damn it MAGA will respect the rest of the world. . . one way or another.
How do you know what a senior citizen (other than yourself) thinks? Are you in communication with a senior about it? This senior, is telling you to tell me what he can tell me ? WHY?!
Just because? Were you thinking of our Operation Just Cause in Panama in 89-90? There we killed around 300 civilians to apprehend Noriega.
An interesting side note is that thr Army blast him out of his sanctuary (Papal embassy) sonically. They conducted a non-stop bombardment of high volume rock including:
Well, I read his post AND you have not answered the question/s!
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You’re probably right, I was being to generous in my assumption.
Ditto.
From now on I won't give a shit if you don't understand my comments, because you will seek out some inane reply anyway.
Ditto.
Completely fucking wrong.
Thank you for your opinion. I certainly didn't expect a confession.
I dont support Hamas Buzz, as I have said directly here ever since this started. I support all of them ending up with a bullet in their head.
Like many others, you conflate support for Palestinian rights with anti-semitism and support for terrorists. What good has the far right government done for Israelis and Jews? Or do you deny that a lot of Israelis blame the far right government for the Oct 7 disaster? I see articles like that every day. ( I look at Israeli newspapers).
Hamas is a bunch of terrorists but they are also the governing authority of the Gaza Strip. They are the government for the Gaza Strip.
Apparently not.
That is a different statement. Hamas is NOT the elected government of the Gaza Strip. Hamas forcibly took control of the Gaza Strip in 2007 and have been the governing authority ever since. They are the government of the Gaza Strip.
Do you understand that not all government are elected? That our history is replete with conquests? Indeed, this geographical area in question has a long history of conquests.
You are now trying to move the goalposts. You are trying to change this to a question of the quality of their role as governing authority (like: "they are not really do a great job at governing") rather than deal with the fact that they are indeed the current government of the Gaza Strip.
It is what it is.
You should be pleased that you learned something quite relevant today.
What are the rights of the Palestinians you refer to?
Do the palestinians in the west bank , or in gaza for that matter, have the equal rights the israelis do ?
Deflection. I'm asking you about the rights you believe Palestinians have regardless of what Israel thinks to which you referred in the quoted statement.
Rights are conferred by governments. If they do not have equal rights as the Israelis living in the same area that is because the government withholds them.
According to an Israeli cabinet minister, the Palestinians have three choices , leave Israel, accept the status quo second class citizenship, or be destroyed. When there is a fourth choice they will have "rights".
Stop moving the goal posts, JR. You weren't talking about Palestinians in Israel, which enjoy the same rights as Israelis. You were speaking of the rights of the Gazans and the West Bank. Gaza's freedoms aren't determined by Israel. Less so with the West Bank because of geopolitical considerations. Gaza can be Isolated from Israel and from countries hostile to Israel which is an important consideration concerning the kinds of weapons that can be snuck into Gaza. The same is not true of the West Bank, which shares borders with countries hostile to Israel. If Israel attempted to withdraw from the West Bank in the manner it did from Gaza, Hamas and others would occupy the West Bank before the last Israeli managed to leave.
So, again, what Gazan or West Bank Palestinian rights are you referring to?
are you serious ?
Arabs who are Israeli citizens have "rights, but they will never all be allowed to become citizens because they would become a voting majority.
The West Bank and Gaza are part of Israel. They are not independent countries.
Ask McCarthy about the power of minorities.
Palestinians living in the West Bank face several restrictions when trying to become Israeli citizens:
Residency Requirements : Non-Jewish Palestinians were subject to strict residency requirements for claiming Israeli citizenship 1 .
Law of Return : The 1950 Law of Return grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights 2 .
Discriminatory Laws : There are more than 60 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, impacting virtually every aspect of their lives, including housing, employment, education, healthcare, and who they can marry 3 .
Legal Analysis : A legal analysis supporting the recognition of a Palestinian human right to Israeli citizenship is significant for the advancement of equality in Israel-Palestine 4 .
Bing AI
Why?
The Institute of Middle East Understanding is not a credible source of information. For instance, the site says:
This isn't quite true. In actuality, most of the Arabs in the area were emigrants, just as the Jews were. In 1890, there were about 520,000 Arabs in Palestine and about 43,000 Jews and 57,000 Christians. By 1947, Arab numbers had nearly quadrupled and the Jewish numbers grew to over 600,000. For the Jews, the increase is explained by emigration for the purpose of establishing a Jewish homeland. For the Arabs, their increase is explained by pursuing the economic opportunities presented by the British buildup of the region. In other words, most of them were not indigenous.
Further, of the 750,000 that fled, most left voluntarily because they believed the armies of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Egypt they knew were coming were going to wipe out the Israelis and they would later be able to return to a land devoid of Jews. In actuality, the Jews asked the Arabs in the region to say and not leave, according to one article I read from the UK, which talked about that period. They described David Ben Gurion and some of the Jewish militias as terrorists, so I don't think the writer of the article was biased in favor of the Israelis.
The quote I posted above was the first sentence in their effort to "educate" the reader on who they call the "Palestinian citizens of Israel" rather than what they're actually called in Israel, Israeli Arabs, although that is starting to shift. Point being, if it can't get the first sentence right, what is there to trust with the rest of it?
No problem, I had no expectation you would provide a thoughtful answer. Gave it a shot.
They are already citizens. Some have been elected to the Knesset and, as I understand it, one even sits on their Supreme Court. However, I know that there are laws that prevent non-Jews from gaining a majority or threaten the Jewish nature of the country by outpopulating Jews. The question I have for you is, how is that different from any other Muslim country in the ME? Not only do all of them criminalize conversion away from Islam, they actually suppress other religions. And that is hardly a recent development.
While one often hears that Jews fared better under the Muslims than they did under European Christians, that is far from true. In actuality, there seemed to be periods of safety and periods of persecution, ranging from mild to severe, under both. Point being, Muslims have been doing unto Jews far far longer and harsher than anything Jews have done to Muslims.
They are not independent countries but they are not part of Israel. Israel does not have legal, sovereign ownership of it. They just control it. It has not been annexed.
I was illustrating the power of a minority bloc and the influence they can have.
And if you need this to be played out for you, a minority influence that can secure favorable legislation has the means to grow into the majority if they remain unified.
And if you need an example of that, consider MAGA's influence on the GOP.
You need this broken down into smaller pieces? Out of respect for Drakk, I am going to just leave you to do the math yourself.
There is one more thing I think we should get straight. Blinken saying that he is against a cease fire but in favor of a pause is double talk.
Not as long as Israel has the support of the US.
Wish it were so, but on this 85th anniversary of Kristallnacht Hamas has succeeded in greatly increasing antisemitism and support for itself in the world of bleeding hearts.
I'm not sure "greatly increasing antisemitism" is the whole picture. Perhaps it has increased but I tend to think it has exposed more of what was already there. It's been said for a while now that the Left (no, not all of them, TiG) is way more antisemitic than the rest of America. Perhaps current events simply makes them feel safer expressing it.
In any case, I believe, I hope, that the great majority of the American people support Israel. What needs to happen here more than anything else is a concerted effort to teach American's the true history of Palestine since the very beginning. They need to be taught just exactly what the ME believes about themselves and Israel. The whole thing. The good and the bad parts of both sides.
Right now, all most people get are the unfair an unobjective perspective of main stream media.
We are no longer in the time of Walter Cronkite and when there was an award for the newspaper that was the most unbiased. Now the internet and social media misinformation, disinformation, media bias and outright lies rule the day. Today there is a new language and the word "objectivity" may as well be retired from the dictionary. Don't even DREAM that the truth will prevail.
As for the fact that the younger generations have little or no knowledge of the actual facts of the past, don't worry, because they will experience the past again. IMO George Santayana had prescience:
US Antisemitic Incidents up About 400% Since Israel-Hamas War …
.
Web (Reuters) - Antisemitic incidents in the United States rose by about 400% in slightly over two weeks since war broke out in the Middle East after Palestinian Islamist group Hamas …
Very interesting and well done video, and the speaker is impressive.
The fatal flaw of his argument, in my opinion, is him saying Israel had no choice but to immediately (I believe they started bombing Gaza the next day) hit Hamas very hard and in the process kill thousands of civilians.
The first effort should have been to get the hostages out through negotiation brokered by third parties in the Arab world. Such negotiation, according to news reports, may be happening now , but it comes after all the loss of civilian life in Gaza.
The guy in the video has a main conclusion, that Hamas doesnt care about its civilians and that they actually want their civilians killed to gain sympathy from "the west". So what does he recommend? That Israel accommodate Hamas by killing Gaza civilians.
Israel could have gone at this in a much more gradual and precise way and still terminated those responsible for Oct 7.
I didn't realize that you were such an expert in military strategy.
All Hamas had to do is release the hostages and Israel would have called off the dogs.
I've read that Israel would temporarily "call off the dogs" for humanitarian efforts and provisions to take place if Hamas would release the hostages, but it won't stop the Israelis from seeking out and eliminating Hamas.
In all honesty we will never know. But there were Israeli military and government officials calling for the destruction of Gaza independent of any call for the release of the hostages.
Netanyahu said that if Hamas would release all the hostages he would grant a pause:
Netanyahu: No pause in war without Hamas releasing hostages (msn.com)
That is true John, but the policy right now is that unless all the hostages are released the invasion will continue non-stop.
I think it is a sound policy
I'm very glad this is not how we fought WWII. Cease fire a week after Pearl Harbor. A humanitarian pause to let the Germans restock after D-day...
That would be to reward Hamas for what they did on Oct 7th. It would be the Israeli government handing Hamas power. Can't you see that? Is it your position that the only relevant factor concerning the hostages is to get them out safely and nothing else matters? Every time Israel takes such a position they are asking Hamas and anyone else like them to do that sort of thing all over again because it would be proven to work. Take hostages, force Israel into doing what they want. You are arguing to perpetuate this sort of thing. You are legitimizing it.
Because it is the least bad option for them. You keep putting the deaths of Palestinians on Israel instead of where it belongs, on Hamas, and so you, too, submit to Hamas' goals.
Really? I'd like to hear your plan for eliminating 30,000 to 40,000 terrorists gradually without killing whatever innocent Palestinians there may be.
The deaths of palestinian civilians is on the people that kill them . And include Hamas in that , absolutely.
Your position is quite in line with "We dont want to kill you but we have to. Please understand."
And your position is that all Hamas has to do to defeat Israel is strap infants to their chests and to make sure to bring enough magazines for their rifles.
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Thank you, Drakkonis. You have explained that perfectly because I've given up trying to do so. However, I'm sure that for some it will just be "blowing in the wind." Anyway the pressures being brought upon Israel by the rest of the world have brought a small change, although I'm sure it will lead to the deaths of more Israeli soldiers than otherwise.
Perhaps they are more like children that have never governed themselves.
An Israeli official and an American official met with a Qatar official today to try and enlist Qatar to broker a deal to get the hostages out. I guess by your lights Israel must want to hand Hamas power.
Why do you think that? Most likely, the Israeli official position is that Hamas must release all the hostages before any talk of a temporary cease fire for humanitarian purposes can be granted. Period. If that is the case, why would I have a problem with that? Especially since I think it is the right track?