Deepseek Trouble
Link to quote: What is DeepSeek, the Chinese AI company upending the stock market? | AP News
There is now a real challenge to US technology. A Chinese company, DeepSeek , has developed an A.I. system which matches the abilities of U.S. systems like ChatGPT, however the company says it uses fewer, and cheaper, computer chips. Let us not forget that China has stolen much of US technology and has sent about 30,000 individuals to do just that. Can you imagine if the US has done something like that to China?
DeepSeek’s breakthrough caused Tech stocks to fall yesterday. Nvidia, which makes advanced chips for A.I., lost hundreds of billions in stock value. It is concerning. Could it really be true that a Chinese startup has caught up with the big American Tech companies who are at the forefront of AI development at a fraction of the cost? Will the US tech sector be able to respond?
Sunday in an article, Venture capitalist Marc Andreessen compared it to when Russia launched Sputnick :
Marc Andreessen warns DeepSeek is ‘AI’s Sputnik moment’ | Fortune
In other news:
The Senate confirmed Scott Bessent as Treasury Secretary.
World leaders and Holocaust survivors gathered in Poland to commemorate the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Speakers warned of a dangerous rise in antisemitism.
President Trump was in Florida yesterday to address House Republicans at the kickoff of their annual agenda-planning conference on Monday afternoon. He unveiled some interesting ideas. One of them was that maybe the US could outsource prisons for our worst offenders to other countries. He doesn't even want domestic murderers here.
The White House budget office ordered a pause in all federal loans and grants.
The President ordered his new Defense Secretary to begin construction of an Iron Dome defense for the US. He also authorized the Defense Department to potentially bar transgenders from military service.
The acting attorney general fired more than a dozen prosecutors who participated in the lawfare schemes against Donald Trump.
The Trump administration placed dozens of officials at the U.S. Agency for International Development on administrative leave after the discovery that they were working to undermine the President's policies.
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Good morning.
IDF are monitoring Palestinians attempting to return to southern border towns. The people had defied Israeli warnings not to return yet.
maga talks a big game about the chinese here in the US, but like their hero, greed makes them submit in private. I've actually taken stolen materials away from one chinese national and I put another, that I suspect now was a CCP cop, out of my vehicle, in the middle of nowhere on a toll road, in the dead of winter before sunrise. I think he probably missed his flight ...
How can you say that when Joe Biden and his family made millions from selling influence to China.
Something they got away with.
Is that what you're for?
yeah, sure. I deal in facts. remind me again how many trademarks have been awarded by the chinese to the biden family ...
I don't recall that.
Do you believe the Russia hoax was a hoax?
I believe that when trump capitulates to putin that will make all maga russian collaborators, and as a fan of american history, I really appreciate the convenience of maga creating a coalition of theocrats, oligarchs, white supremacists, fascists, and commie sympathizers that hate the constitution and due process for other hobbyists like me that wish to participate in the assertive dissuasion of domestic enemies in defense of our constitution ...
So, you are in denial of FACTS.
I just needed to get that on the record again.
[deleted][✘]
there are no maga facts ...
Why need trademarks when you get direct access for the right price.....er, well.......probably not any more
Right back at it!
He no sooner got back to his desk:
Well, he has already signed an EO making all Americans female. So what's next, signing back into law the single drop of blood rule, making all Americans female minorities?
Maybe you can explain that?
If you would stop getting your information from MEMEs your comments wouldn't be so ignorant.
You are very quick on the draw today, George.
Have you tried researching on your own?
DEFENDING WOMEN FROM GENDER IDEOLOGY EXTREMISM AND RESTORING BIOLOGICAL TRUTH TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Sec. 2. Policy and Definitions. It is the policy of the United States to recognize two sexes, male and female. These sexes are not changeable and are grounded in fundamental and incontrovertible reality. Under my direction, the Executive Branch will enforce all sex-protective laws to promote this reality, and the following definitions shall govern all Executive interpretation of and application of Federal law and administration policy:
(a) “Sex” shall refer to an individual’s immutable biological classification as either male or female. “Sex” is not a synonym for and does not include the concept of “gender identity.”
(b) “Women” or “woman” and “girls” or “girl” shall mean adult and juvenile human females, respectively.
(c) “Men” or “man” and “boys” or “boy” shall mean adult and juvenile human males, respectively.
(d) “Female” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the large reproductive cell.
(e) “Male” means a person belonging, at conception, to the sex that produces the small reproductive cell.
(f) “Gender ideology” replaces the biological category of sex with an ever-shifting concept of self-assessed gender identity, permitting the false claim that males can identify as and thus become women and vice versa, and requiring all institutions of society to regard this false claim as true. Gender ideology includes the idea that there is a vast spectrum of genders that are disconnected from one’s sex. Gender ideology is internally inconsistent, in that it diminishes sex as an identifiable or useful category but nevertheless maintains that it is possible for a person to be born in the wrong sexed body.
(g) “Gender identity” reflects a fully internal and subjective sense of self, disconnected from biological reality and sex and existing on an infinite continuum, that does not provide a meaningful basis for identification and cannot be recognized as a replacement for sex.
Biologically, at conception all are female, sex doesn't change until around 4 - 6 weeks.
Scientifically, Trump's order puts everyone as women, given as at conception, all fetuses belong to the sex that produces the large reproductive cell.
Uh oh. Trumps gonna break out the sharpie to fix things again.
And the radical Trump haters tried to run with that, but as George pointed out already, the left leaning Fact Checker Snopes debunked it:
As we'll explain below, the common belief that all embryos begin as female is not backed by the current scientific understanding of embryonic sexual differentiation. As a result, claims that the executive order in question inadvertently defined all Americans as female were false.
Trump Executive Order Didn't Say All Humans Are Female, But Its Sex Definitions Lack Clarity | Snopes.com
Bull shit!
There is no sexual differentiation at conception. That is a scientific fact.
Quit making stupid comment not based on facts, at conception there is a X or Y chromosome added to the egg, by definition this delineates between male and female.
So, you believe that at conception the sex is already present? Really? At conception?
Please tell me which sex the following picture shows.
He's making doodles of Stormy Daniels tits.
Has she paid Trump what she owes him yet?
There are worse ways for him to spend his time, TBH.
Jim Acosta out at CNN.
Who would have thought that the activist who wouldn't let go of a mic at a press conference and wanted to debate President Trump is now gone as Donald Trump is reelected. They were assigning him to midnight and Acosta knew how degrading it was. He will be remembered as a vile POS who represented a biased news media.
the vile POS is standing behind the dais with the presidential seal in the upper left picture ...
I heard a theory yesterday that stated that deepseek is actually using NVIDIA chips, about 50,000 of them to achieve what they are achieving.
The story goes that there is 50,000 NVIDIA chips that are listed as being sold on their transaction page, but does not state who the sale was to. The belief is a third party bought the chips, sold them to the Chinese and the Chinese snuck them out of the country, a violation of trade laws concerning tech.
Could be wrong, but the Chinese are well known for stealing our technology and almost immediately copying it as if were their own.
There's no reason to believe China's claims about Deepseek anymore than there was to believe their lies about Covid.
you do know why the chinese kicked the catholic church out of china, don't you ?
DeepSeek is open source. That means that the source code is public domain. The research paper is public domain. The entire world can verify their results. So it is unlikely that they are lying.
Thing is, this is net good news. If true, DeepSeek has provided a much better algorithm for finding the best answers from an LLM with substantially fewer real-time resources. That is, this algorithm allows specific models to run on smaller machines. That is great news and the computer scientists of the world will improve upon this step. This is yet another advancement that brings us closer to AGI.
As for NVIDIA (whose stock took a nose dive) this is also great news. There will be even more demand for their hardware because better performing software opens the opportunity to apply AI techniques in ways that were infeasible due to hardware computational limits.
And for investors, it is nice to have a buying opportunity for NVIDIA.
The issue is whether they used the NVIDIA chips and whether it only cost 6 million to do.
That is a largely irrelevant point. It looks like they used older NVIDIA components but who cares? What matters is the validity of the exceptional performance increases of their algorithm over those of OpenAI, et. al.
They arguably have leap-frogged the test-time computation requirements (the 'thinking' part of AI apps like ChatGPT). That is great for everyone!
From my understanding, it is illegal for tech companies like NVIDIA to sell their GPUs to China. NVIDIAs sales report shows a sale of 50,000 chips to an entity but doesn't list the entity name. All other sales show who the GPUs were sold to.
So the question is, did NVIDIA sell these GPUs to China against the law, or did a legitimate entity purchase the GPUs, then smuggle them to China?
As everyone knows, China is notorious for stealing advanced US technology. This is probably no different.
The story is that these were older GPUs that were acquired prior to the ban and/or were part of the GPU models that met US export requirements and thus able to be sold to China. In either case, the GPUs are several years old.
Does not matter anyway. The actual GPUs used are irrelevant. This technological breakthrough is with the algorithm. If the reports are accurate (and we will have verification soon) then DeepSeek is an impressive improvement in efficiency in the test time functionality (the 'thinking' aspect) for accessing LLMs. It will help everyone do more with available hardware technology and that opens doors for much more advanced AI which currently is limited by time (infeasible due to computation time requirements).
Go with facts rather than leap to conclusions.
Yes, China et.al. has been stealing our innovations, but give credit where it is due. In this case, the actual code has been open sourced (meaning everyone has access to the code) and the research paper describing the innovation in formal terms has been released. This is quite unexpected but it is reality.
I have to laugh at the DESPERATION that some exhibit in trying to put China down. After all, only America Mexicana is capable of accomplishing anything worthwhile.
Bigotry manifests in many forms.
So, the money for nuthin' crowd is playing catch up just like they did on 5G technology. Our universities have trained Chinese scientists and engineers; they don't need to steal anything now. Where did the Chinese steal the idea to build better EVs? If the US and Europe cannot build this high tech stuff then China can't steal it, can they?
The money for nuthin' crowd will be in for a real shock when someone develops an optical computer that's more efficient, faster, and doesn't need air conditioning. Gonna make seizing Greenland look rather stupid. Sorry, Elon, no Starlink for you.
The news is about stock investors shitting their pants. And those stock investors have the chutzpah to accuse China of stealing. Stock investors don't make money by building anything. Gaslighting the public doesn't prove US investors are smart or prove the Chinese are not.
Thankfully some common sense. Seems to me that whenever China excels at something they're accused of stealing the technology and what they produce that is better will surely be banned. LOL Brings to mind a line from a movie: "You can't handle the truth."
Are they being built for the Chinese public?
If the US and Europe cannot build this high tech stuff then China can't steal it, can they?
Nobody builds a better EV than Musk. The question is about materials.
From a congressional report:
As the majority of EV manufacturing and sales occur outside the United States, so does the majority of EV battery
production. While China accounts for over 70% of global EV battery production capacity, the United States has developed
battery supply chains for some of its demand. China’s dominance in EV battery manufacturing is similar to its dominance in
mining and extraction of the minerals used in EV batteries. The potential for an accelerating global transition to EVs leads
some to question the domestic availability of the minerals and materials for the domestic manufacture of EV batteries.
R47227
And there is this:
Hunter Biden’s investment firm helped broker a 2016 deal that gave a Chinese state-backed company control of a massive African mine rich in cobalt — a mineral essential for the production of electric car batteries.
The deal, first reported by the Washington Free Beacon during the 2020 presidential campaign, was spotlighted by the New York Times Saturday as Congress inches closer to approving President Biden’s $2 trillion social spending plan, which earmarks billions of dollars to promote electric vehicles.
In 2016, an investment firm founded by Hunter Biden with several Chinese partners was cut into a complex $3.8 billion transaction that transferred 80 percent of Congo’s Tenke Fungurum mine from an American company to Beijing-backed China Molybdenum.
President Joe Biden, Hunter Biden’s father, was the sitting vice president when the deal was struck.
The mine is one of the world’s largest sources of cobalt — and China’s control of the mineral “presents a critical vulnerability to the future of the U.S. domestic auto industry,” Biden’s White House reported in June .
A White House spokesman said that Joe Biden had no knowledge of his son’s involvement with the sale, the Times reported.
Hunter Biden's firm helped China get electric-car mineral: report
On that one it looks like China got what they paid for.
Yes, for the Chinese public and the rest of the world. 4 million Chinese EVs were sold in China in 2024, 11 million were sold world wide.
More than half went abroad. Interesting.
As a matter of fact, EV manufacturing in China has followed a more traditional industrial pattern. China's domestic consumption of EVs has provided the capital for expanding into foreign markets. EV sales in China have increased to about 8 million units per year which is the largest market for EVs by a substantial margin.
Tesla sells about 650K EV units in the US. Tesla sells about the same number of EV units in China. Tesla dominates the US market. But Tesla accounts for only 8 pct of EV sales in China. Tesla is actually a big fish in a little pond.
Tesla can't compete for dominance in the global marketplace. Tesla EVs are too expensive, mediocre performers, and aren't as innovative as foreign competitors. And there are concerns that Tesla will brick cars with forced software updates. Tesla is essentially a Vega of EVs.
IMO the US needs protective measures to grow our own EV manufacturing capability. But with the business acumen of Elon Musk serving as the guiding model the chances of the US becoming a dominant competitor in the global market is virtually nil. Tesla focuses too much attention on hokey smokey carney barker PR than on competitive price, performance, and quality. Tesla is holding back the development of EV manufacturing capacity in the US.
What are the Chinese businesses selling -- cobalt or batteries? Apparently even Elon Musk ain't smart enough to protect his supply chain. The just-in-time money-for-nuthin' MBAs have screwed themselves, their investors, and the American public.
You do understand that a business only gets a one-time benefit by eliminating warehouses? And the cost of that wonderful one-time savings is a serious loss of resilience, supply chain insecurity, and vulnerability to profiteers.
Money-for-nuthin' financial wizards are idiots. Businesses have lost a lot more money on JIT nonsense than they've saved because they depend on middlemen to secure their supply chains.
Why so?
People in China are free to buy whatever kind of car they want, right?
What percentage of 1.41 billion is 4 million?
Let's start with what percentage of 1.41 billion are persons who are the right age to drive, which ones prefer an EV to a gas engine, then again of those, who can afford to own a car, while considering that not every household needs or wants a car for every member, then again, subtract those who already have cars si they don't need or want to trade in. I think your percentage becomes a little more realistic then.
And from there we can go to whether China's EVs are all about the climate or making money on the US desire to go green.
I don't think that the US desire to go green means anything to Chinese car buyers, but it is possible that having a conscience about the climate could be a factor. Mostly, I think, my now having had the experience of how quiet and smooth the ride was in an EV, that could have something to do with it. Maybe they just prefer the new technology. Too many things to consider.
Watched an interesting movie today, a psychological thriller - Sleeping with the Enemy, starring Julia Roberts. Never saw it before.
It might mean everything to Chinese EV manufacturers. Who controls most of the materials for the battery?
Are Chinese manufacturers supposed to be different from America Mexicana manufacturers?
Almost 11, getting tired.
May I present an analogy? One that I think is perfect.
During prohibition in the US, Canada also had a form of prohibition. It only involved their citizens buying liquor.
Canada allowed their manufacturers to sell liquor outside Canada. Joe Kennedy and the mob were leading buyers.
Pretty obviously China doesn't restrict its people from buying EVs, whether or not they're manufactured in China.