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More Frustration from Hundred Year-Old Pictures

  

Category:  Photography & Art

Via:  a-macarthur  •  10 years ago  •  32 comments

More Frustration from Hundred Year-Old Pictures

I continue to digitize and restore old photographs -- mostly Magic Lantern glass slides. As noted previously, some are numbered, some are captioned, some are numbered and captioned -- and some are neither.

I'll start with one such no-caption/no number slide and hope for some help from my friends. This one might be easy in terms of generic, on-its-face captioning, but ideally, an image of a documentary nature (and even some that might stand alone on their aesthetic appeal) are (IMO) is not "complete unless the WHO/WHAT/WHEN and WHERE of it are known.

First of several (more later).

4263_discussions.jpg "Shad Fishermen on the Delaware River c.1895?" -- that's my guess -- but it's only a guess.

All guesses, comments, information will be much appreciated.

Thanks,

A. Mac

Second image.

http://thenewstalkerscom.jamroomhosting.com/data/media/0/0/Ning_Media/discussions/4/4264_discussions.jpg


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A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

All guesses, comments, information will be much appreciated.

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser    10 years ago

I have nothing factual to add, but it looks like they're getting ready to pull a dead whale to shore... Or something. Grin.gif

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

It appears to me that only one line goes back into the water, so I'm not so sure it would be towing a net. IMO they are resting in between pulls, towing a large boat up to the shore. One might ask why are they in the water? If you look at the shore the stones there would not afford a good grip for their feet, so the ground under the water might provide more solidity. Why the guy holding the end of the rope is standing in the water I just don't know.

If I wanted to be less serious, I would say they are getting ready for a tug-of-war with a whale.

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
link   TTGA    10 years ago

I've seen this method of fishing used before Mac, in the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam. I've also seen videos of it being used on Tahiti. It's the first method ever used for fishing when boats are not available and is probably 50,000 years old. Here's a rough drawing of what is happening.

As you can see from the drawing, the net (called a purse seine) is anchored with light anchors over much of it's length. The men then draw in one end of it, the net closes up on any fish that have swam into the area and they are pulled ashore.

4265_discussions.png?width=721

 
 
 
sixpick
Professor Quiet
link   sixpick    10 years ago

 
 
 
Dowser
Sophomore Quiet
link   Dowser    10 years ago

It must be cold-- they're all wearing coats.

Worry not, I finally have a scanner set up and you're going to be inundated... And no, you don't have to restore anything-- it's just for you to use as you see fit! Smile.gif

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

Wow! Perfect! Thanks to TTGA and Six and Buzz on this one. You have pretty much given me enough validation to submit the image with the caption

"Purse Seining for Shad, c. 1895"

I know the photographer was local (Philly) and worked from c. 1870-1920, and I also know that American Shad migrate up from the Atlantic via the Delaware River to spawn every spring.

Many thanks; other images later today.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

Don't thank me. I still don't think they're fishing.

 
 
 
LoneRanger01
Freshman Silent
link   LoneRanger01    10 years ago

Way to go Biily Bob,...the next time you park our boat try dropping the anchor instead of pulling outthe drain plug.....

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

Way to go Biily Bob

I'll consider that as a possible sub-title.

Good one, LR!

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

Here's another; the buildings look like it's in Boston Harbor and I thought "The USS Constitution," but I've looked at old photos of the Constitution and I think it's not.

4266_discussions.jpg

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

It looks like an American Whaler

4267_discussions.jpg

 
 
 
Larry Crehore
Freshman Silent
link   Larry Crehore    10 years ago
 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

Wow great ID key; I'm going to move the image to the body of the article since we're on the second page.

Thanks Larry.

 
 
 
Larry Crehore
Freshman Silent
link   Larry Crehore    10 years ago

Well best to start with basic identification as much as possible. This one appears to be of the Barquentine class if I'm reading the chart right. The forward mast has a different spacing than the mid mast and aft mast.

115a192d1ed9655805b71421f7c73e88.jpg

 
 
 
sixpick
Professor Quiet
link   sixpick    10 years ago

Heck I don't know. Could those holes on the side be where cannons are sticking out of them. Look at the video starting at 5:36 and your photo. It appears your photo is of a long ship, but everything is relative to other ships, boats, distance and everything around it. Both have 3 sails. Some differences, but quite similar, maybe because of light and restoration.

 
 
 
sixpick
Professor Quiet
link   sixpick    10 years ago

USS Constitution Photo

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

Thanks, Six. Maybe there's a dead ringer in the video; I'll watch it several times.

 
 
 
Larry Crehore
Freshman Silent
link   Larry Crehore    10 years ago

It would appear according to the masts placement that the USS Constitution was also a Barquentine class as well.

 
 
 
LoneRanger01
Freshman Silent
link   LoneRanger01    10 years ago

your ship looks like the Cutty Sark

4268_discussions.jpg

4269_discussions.jpg

 
 
 
Larry Crehore
Freshman Silent
link   Larry Crehore    10 years ago

According to the charts the Cutty Sark is a Barque, notice the evenly spaced masts.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
link   pat wilson    10 years ago

There's a small boat along side the ship, kind of odd looking.

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

It may be some kind of tender, but it's part of the unknown.

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

It does look like the Cutty Sark I'll see if I can find a larger image.

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Participates
link   pat wilson    10 years ago

That's so cool A.Mac. I just looked it up and it makes perfect sense. The "tender" is also a lifeboat when necessary. It looks like a life boat with a canopy.

 
 
 
Broliver "TheSquirrel" Stagnasty
Freshman Silent
link   Broliver "TheSquirrel" Stagnasty    10 years ago

Would it be possible to increase the resolution on the image taken from the slide?

If it were the Cutty Sark, why would she be flying what looks like (?) the American flag from her spanker (?) rigging? Cannot tell from this resolution what the flag on the main top mast is....

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago
The scan is @300 dpi and the physical size of the scanned image is 5 times the original. I don't see a name on the ship. Click on the image for a larger view.
 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
link   TTGA    10 years ago

Brolly,

She's almost certainly not the Cutty. I downloaded and expanded the image of the Cutty, just to be certain, and the Cutty Sark was built as a merchantman. Her sides are smooth, with no openings, such as this ship has.

No matter what she was being used for when the photo was taken (and I have some guesses about that), she was originally built as a Sloop of War for somebody's Navy. From the rig (Barquentine as Larry has said) and the hull design, I would guess she was built for either the British, French or American Navies. Upon expansion of the original photo (estimated to have been taken between 1890 and 1920, since that was when most of these pictures were taken), I noted that she has gunports for ten guns a side, which makes her total force 20 guns. That, plus her size (estimated by comparison with the tug alongside as between 130 and 200 feet) and the Barque rig (designed for speed and maneuverability, and widely use in the days of sail for light warships such as Sloops and Frigates, who depended on these qualities rather than extreme firepower), would place her as a Sloop. Sail Navies classed a ship as a Sloop when she had ports for between 14 and 32 guns. Frigates (such as the USS Constitution of 44 guns) usually carried between 32 and 50 guns of medium caliber. Above 50 guns, a sail Navy ship would be classed as a Ship of the Line (the most common had 74 heavy guns). Sloops were designed in sail Navies to do roughly the same jobs as Destroyer Escorts or Destroyers would do in a modern Navy. Frigates would do much the same jobs as Light or Heavy Cruisers would do in modern Navies.

Since this ship has no evidence of ever having had engines installed, she was probably built sometime in the 1820's or 1830's. When purely sailing warships started to become obsolete, she was sold, possibly for service as a whaler. When whaling declined, she was likely sold again to either a private party as a yacht or to a small passenger line. The one certain thing is that, although she was built as one, when this picture was taken, she was no longer a Naval vessel. That is indicated by the fact that she does not wear a commissioning pennant at her masthead. Also, a close up inspection of the gunports show that the after ports have what look like curtains across them. No active duty warship would ever put curtains across gunports. They would be considered a fire hazard and would be time consuming to remove if the ship went into action. Those ports have obviously been converted into windows for passenger cabins.

The port she is entering is not a US port (not Boston). Mac, I believe that I once mentioned in an E-Mail what the procedure is when a ship enters a foreign port. She wears the National Colors at the stern hoist and the colors of the nation whose port she is entering at the head of the main or fore mast. The fact that those flags are being shown tells me that she is a US registered ship in the process of entering a foreign port. It is difficult, even when expanded, to make out the foreign flag at the masthead, but it might be (at least it's not inconsistent with) the flag of Mexico. Since, at the time this picture was most likely taken, the Caribbean was a favorite cruising ground for American yachts and small passenger ships; a study of photos of the waterfronts in Mexican ports in that area from that time might give some indication of exactly what port she is entering (or might not, I could be wrong about the flag).

 
 
 
Broliver "TheSquirrel" Stagnasty
Freshman Silent
link   Broliver "TheSquirrel" Stagnasty    10 years ago

Tug? That looks more like a passenger Ferry... Note the gangway descending to the water.

The Cutty Sark was a clipper ship made for bringing tea from China. She was repurposed later in her life to be wool hauler from Australia. You can read more here .

Since you seem to know more about this than I, what purpose are the lower series of ports along the sides, lower than the gunports but above the water line?

Also, it appears as if there is some kind of cover over the deck towards the front of the boat, which would seem to indicate the use of this ship as a passenger or pleasure craft.

 
 
 
TTGA
Professor Silent
link   TTGA    10 years ago

Tug? That looks more like a passenger Ferry.

Brolly,

I think you're right about this, although it's purpose at that time is not likely to be removing passengers. That would come later, if the ship anchors rather than mooring to a pier. When a vessel enters a foreign port (or a foreign vessel enters a US port), in the days before they were all equipped with radios, the ship would fly a yellow flag (called a quarantine flag) to indicate that the visit of various officials is required. These, in the case of a civilian ship, would be the health officer and the customs officer, to make sure that there are no infectious diseases on board and that nothing on board is an illegal import, or that the proper duties are paid on legal imports. This is probably the boat which brought them out and took them back (and may also have brought them a local pilot to assist with conning the ship to her anchorage or pier). For a Naval vessel, a senior officer of the host country's Navy (called the Captain of the Port) would also pay a courtesy visit. The first two officials make their visit before the incoming vessel is allowed to anchor or tie up to a pier, and it's obvious that she's still under weigh. Her Mainsail is still up (although heavily reefed) to provide steerage way and the anchors are still in place.

The covers over the deck (there's also one over the quarterdeck are awnings that have been rigged to keep the sun off while in port. They aren't rigged while at sea in sailing ships, since they would make it difficult to set and trim the sails.

what purpose are the lower series of ports along the sides, lower than the gunports but above the water line?

Those are scuppers, part of the drainage system for the gundeck. They each have a small scuttle to close them off from inside, since, on a sailing ship, they are not always above the waterline. Aside from pumping, they are the only means by which water coming into the gundeck, either from a boarding wave or if a port lid isn't secured properly in heavy weather, can be removed. They're harder to see, but, if you expand the view and look very closely, you will also see a line of scuppers along the main deck. In heavy weather, with many boarding waves, they could easily have as much as three or four feet of water on the main deck as well as a significant amount on the gundeck. If it isn't removed quickly and automatically, the water on the main deck would make the hull top heavy. If that happens, any amount of wind in the sails (or even on the bare poles) could cause the ship to roll right over.

 
 
 
A. Macarthur
Professor Guide
link   seeder  A. Macarthur    10 years ago

TTGA,

Many thanks for an overwhelmingly interesting and valuable post!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
link   Buzz of the Orient    10 years ago

Broly, TTGA and others have made this really entertaining and educational - thanks!

 
 

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