Closet Atheists
The USA is one of the most religious nations on the planet. Statistically 78% of USA citizens claim to be religious (~70% of USA citizens are Christian). Yet, anecdotally, it is easy to observe many going through the motions - playing the role of the routine theist. Pretending to be more religious than the truly are. Some of the 'religious' are in-effect atheists going through the motions. A study last year suggests that even in religious surveys (much less real life) USA citizens tend to overstate their religious views:
Yet, religious nonbelief is often heavily stigmatized, potentially leading many atheists to refrain from outing themselves even in anonymous polls .
Widely-cited telephone polls (e.g., Gallup, Pew) suggest USA atheist prevalence of only 3-11% . In contrast, our most credible indirect estimate is 26% (albeit with considerable estimate and method uncertainty).
Stigma of Atheism
In the USA, an atheist is considered by many to be evil incarnate, lost soul, devil worshiper, etc. Even the word 'atheist' is a pejorative that brings forth negative emotional reactions based on years of indoctrination:
- Politicians have excellent reasons to not claim to be atheist (regardless of qualification).
- A family of Christians will be upset to learn that one of their own is actually an atheist. Reactions range from concern for the soul to disowning.
- Friendships (including those with co-workers and affiliates) are strained or severed ("I cannot believe _____ is a heathen").
Of course there are an increasing number of individuals with the intellectual maturity to process the concept that some people are not convinced there is a God, but in the USA they are still a small minority.
Discussion Question
The question for discussion is: Should All Atheists Come Out of the Closet?
To set the stage, here is a contrived scenario explaining why some would choose to keep their lack of belief to themselves:
Mom and Dad are legacy Catholics ( chosen in this scenario because of prominence and its acceptance of evolution ) having been raised as such by their parents. They have continued the tradition by going to church (albeit sporadically). They have enrolled their children in church programs to be religiously educated and ultimately confirmed. They figure that Catholic teachings are mostly good moral lessons and that their children are free to make up their own minds regarding religious views. At home, the parents gently guide their children to resolve inconsistencies with known realities - largely explaining that scripture is not to be taken literally and emphasizing the good moral lessons.
Privately, Mom thinks her religion is man-made, evidenced by the changing rules, and is entirely unsure about God. But she still thinks there must be a God behind it all. Basically an agnostic theist on the edge. Dad has long since realized the indoctrination at play and is an agnostic atheist - no longer even thinks about God.
The couple, because of their personal assessment (probably many factors), decided to raise their children as Catholics. They are not trying to cause harm to the church (presume they even donate and participate in charity drives). They have simply chosen to not upset their social fabric by enabling family, friends and co-workers to (emotionally) fret and fume about them as godless heretics.
This couple has decided that disclosing their private religious views would cause more disruption in their social circle than it is worth. Are they wrong for keeping their views private and ' going through the motions ' as ' normal ' USA theists?
Tags
Who is online
197 visitors
Should All Atheists Come Out of the Closet?
That is their choice.
I experience this from the very conservative members of my Catholic family.
I'm out and proud
ideally, yes. While it is a personal choice and a person's reasons for coming out or not are varied and their own, atheists "coming out" much in the same way homosexuals have in recent years might make them more mainstream. They may not be viewed as a fringe and may be more recognized and accepted or understood in general society. In other words, being an atheists may not be seen as a big deal anymore.
I went quietly from trying to believe to not believing over a long period of time. I see no point in bringing this up to anyone. Not sure why people think the world has to know what they believe.
This article is the result on a thread in another article in which atheists who don't declare their atheism were called hypocrites and accused of being saboteurs of the church.
TiG has proposed a perfectly reasonable scenario illustrating why atheists can sometimes be found in church on the occasional Sunday, without trying to undermine anybody's belief.
Is your arm being twisted to keep you at your keyboard?
I believe it should be up to the individual atheist.
Those who set the conditions under which atheists are persecuted, even mildly, just for being atheists, don't get to complain when atheists try to avoid that persecution.
Dear Friend Sandy: I agree with you and episette on this point.
Words like "all" and "none" can be problematic when it comes to what an entire group should do in some circumstances.
Freedom of individual choice, based on unique circumstances should be respected.
Only the person involved knows all the factors which must be weighed on every reasonable alternative course of action or inaction in any given matter.
It usually boils down to individual use of free choice, provided it does no substantive harm to others.
Peace, Abundant Blessings and the Freedom to Choose How Best to Obtain and Enjoy Them.
Enoch.
'USA is one of the most religious nations on Earth.' ? ?
Perhaps. Except populated by the most adherent to the principals of Lucifer.
very good question - no easy answer. For them to "come out" involves a very long battle - same applied (and still applies) to homosexuals. The religious have a dominating hold on many aspects of daily life, government etc (in this country) - so for a group (like Atheists) to come out and demand to be respected etc (treated equally in all aspects etc) as well, will involve quite a battle since i don't see the religious relinquishing their hold anytime soon (look at the whining and crying - playing the "victim card" and trying to mount a backlash - when people started saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" for example). Outside of that - they are relegated to living in the shadows and just dealing with it all. (this is strictly my opinion)
It takes either a tremendous level of faith or a completely irrational mind to believe that you know everything that can be known so that you conclude there is no God.
After all, the earth itself bears witness to a creator. Slight deviations to the atmosphere and our location relative to the Sun making the earth similar to Venus or Mars would alone preclude human life and most of the animal kingdom
the perfection that is the earth and the synchronization of the elements and all living things could only occur by design and a perfect designer
The odds of the earth as it exists are one in 700 quintillion
I know, right? It's totally shocking that life exists where the conditions are right for it.
The earth is spewing lava, our atmosphere spawns lethal storms and as far as "the perfection" of all living things.... your idea of "perfection" and mine are several galaxies apart.
Atheists do not conclude there is no god; rather an atheist is one who is not convinced there is no god.
Now that you better understand what an atheist is, you should be able to go to the next step and find that not being convinced there is a god is entirely rationale. The belief -based on faith- that a particular god exists - and to hold that as certain truth - is irrational.
I have had many atheists including on this site who state that it is absolute that there is no God. You seem to be referring to.agnostics
Which atheists have stated in absolute terms that there is no god (where god = creator of the known universe)? I would like to ask them a few questions.
Yes, when I use the term 'atheist' it is a shorthand for 'agnostic-atheist' because virtually all atheists are agnostic-athiests. Where agnostic-atheist = one who is not (yet) convinced there is a God.
I'm ignostic.
Define "god".
I have pretty much the same view. I think the question of a "god" is both silly and irrelevant.
"Atheists do not conclude there is no god"
Definition of atheist
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
Do you think that contradicts what I wrote? Big difference between concluding there is no god and not being convinced a god exists.
I agree.
I find it very egotistical to believe that existence was created for our species.
I find it illogical that anything powerful enough to create existence would "need" anything (especially worship) or have petty human emotions like anger and jealousy.
then why create ?
maybe it was lonely ....lol
Exactly.
I don't see how it could possibly be lonely. There are tens of thousands of gods and goddesses that have been identified and worshipped by humans.
Maybe humans were created as pets for the gods and goddesses.
LOL... before man, maybe GOD didn't know about the other gods.
Cause according to many humans evidently GOD also relied on man to write his "rule books"
.....
Yep maybe it was lonely and wanted companionship and to be entertained.
Many also include it wants and needs "worshiped" until IT tells me that I just respect and appreciate the creation.
So the Earth is the gods' and goddesses' pet store?
Good question, I got to remember that one
Before the gods created man they only had goats and sheep to rape, and as we now know that was unnatural and a sin. Thus they created man.
Or a zoo?
Where is the evidence that your god or any other god exists? The Bible is not evidence of god because it was written by man., Religious belief is the absence of evidence.
I'm still waiting for you to state (and show the math) the odds for an omnipotent, omniscient, omniectcetera god popping into existence and then creating everything.
That's your opinion, not fact
To TIGs actual question that was asked it's a completely personal choice whether someone comes out or not.
God didn’t “pop” into existence God has always existed.
the first evidence for God is creation
the second evidence for God is Jesus. Jesus is God the word manifested to mankind
for those who refuse this truth, don’t worry. It will become clear to you when you go before Him in judgment. Then you will have eternity to regret your rejection
How do you know this?
Ok I'll be charitable here. What are the odds (and show the math) for an omnipotent, omniscient, omniectcetera god always existing and then creating everything.
So your supporting evidence is your personal opinion, sorry but that's not particularly impressive
No I won't my brain and body will cease functioning and I will die, that's it nothing else. You'll see when you pass, but no you won't cause just like the rest of us you're simply going to die and nothing else.
Are you sure ? How are you sure ? Once you have seen a "ghost" or a "spirit" you really doubt ..... "there is nothing else"
There's no concrete evidence that spirits exist.
Tell that to the makers of Wild Turkey 101
I 100 % agree with that statement. However, I have seen them and do believe they do.
Once you actually see a Ghost or a spirit you would as well. You also would have no concrete proof. Like a fart in the wind they are here and gone..... at least the ones I saw were.
I'll go with 'yes!'
No such thing as ghosts or spirits.
Key word in there is "believe." But belief does not equal fact.
I would rationally analyze the circumstance of a "sighting" and logically deduce possible explanations.
All the more reason why I would not simply conclude or accept there are ghosts or spirits.
Subjective and anecdotal.
What did it look like?
I agree on this as well. Who wants to believe their eyes when everything you have ever heard or believed says other wise ?
I don't believe in ghosts and if I were to actually see something that others might think is a ghost, I would still be looking for another explanation.
My family believes in them and I think they are all whacked.
There are tools available that can measure even tiny amounts of methane in the air, so even a fart in the wind is provable and quantifiable. The problem with simply eye witness testimony of ghosts or spirits is that eye witness testimony is horribly flawed and cannot be trusted as a persons perception of reality is relying on a brain that tries to make sense of things and thus often shows people what they want to see even if there's really nothing there.
" Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall."
So you're welcome to believe as you like, but trying to convince others of something that you experienced without any corroborating evidence is pointless. If said ghosts or spirits do exist there should be some repeatable verifiable way to confirm such things. If they haunt a location, you should be able to repeatedly disrupt or disturb them and record the responses in other ways, yet so far all we have are ridiculous Ghost hunter shows where people walk around in the dark scaring the crap out of themselves by creating all the scenarios humans fear most and jumping at every creak in the floor boards or wind gust that blows through the abandoned mental hospital at night.
I may have told you this before, I saw three dead relatives each separately shortly after death. Each one appeared for a few seconds and then was gone. Each one uttered a few words but the only one I remember what he said was my brother.
Believe me the first time I saw one of their ghosts or spirits it really freaked me out and I disbelieved myself and what I had seen. Years later when it happened again I was not near as surprised by the third time it didn't really surprise me and I was more aware.
However I seriously doubt I ever see another one till I die myself because I have no more close family to lose.
I have NO expectations that anyone will believe me. But I do know what I saw and that is proof enough for me that spirits and or ghosts do exist and there is something after death.
You and everyone else of course are free to believe what ever you believe.
I do believe once you see a ghost or spirit, you would probably believe as well. It hard not to.
Agreed. But, Once, twice, three time ... Personally I'm sold. To each their own.
Considering my entire family is dead perhaps I was "shown" what many are not.. Hell I dont know I do know what I saw on three occasions and I'm not nuts so.........
I don't think you're nuts. Some people believe and I don't find any fault with that. I lovingly call my husband and daughter "whacked" but nobody else can call them that.
My husband swears that he's been contacted by my dad and my mom. Not in a direct way of course, but he swears on it.
I'm still skeptical.
I dont doubt it or blame you one bit for being skeptical. I was freaked out about it myself and I'm the one who witnessed what I saw. I also have not nor am I now a religious person. It was just fuckin wierd, surreal and almost kind of scary even.
or perhaps they are real and your just trying to rationalize they aren't. Wait till ya see one and let me know. If you never see one that's still not proof they dont exist though is it ?
PS: I dont expect others to believe what I say I saw, I hardly do myself.
So in times of emotional trauma or stress, when you were thinking of your recently deceased family members, you saw a flashed image of them and even heard one speak. Why not hold out the possibility that under those conditions your brain may have shown you exactly what you wanted to see? It's a far more plausible scenario than an actual ghost or spirit revealing itself to you for no apparent reason.
The body and brain are a powerful machine capable of creating chemicals and drugs that can even mimic some hallucinogens. The oxytocin and other chemicals our brains produce when feeling love or stress, the fight or flight chemicals our body pumps through our veins when triggered, all can have a powerful effect on how we perceive the world around us. I remember once getting sick for two weeks and I recall seeing all sorts of strange things, trees growing up out of my bedroom floor, things coming off the walls and floating to me, but just because my fever addled brain was mixing my dream state with what I thought was an awake state doesn't mean any of that actually happened. Years later I experimented with some magic mushrooms and admittedly took too much or prepared them wrong the second time (first experience was incredible and mind expanding, 2nd a few weeks later I tried to fry them in butter to make them taste better and that was a bad idea) and I was seeing all sorts of crazy stuff, people I hadn't seen in years, a collection of shields and Scottish swords hanging on the wall coming alive, it was nuts. So I'm not trying to convince you what you saw was just a hallucination, but the reality of what our brains can do in certain circumstances should at least make us accept the possibility that it's not something external we're experiencing but something internal.
Because first of all I am not a very emotional person I am pretty darn steady, secondly I was not very close to my mom at all. third these "sightings" all happened past the point of me grieving for their deaths. Forth, I had NO desire to see them. They were dead and I knew it and was OK with it.
your brain may have shown you exactly what you wanted to see? NOT, I didn't want to see what I saw, it freaked me out !
Round two = better shrooms , they can be stronger than anything. I had a great fear of the top of the stairway at my grandmothers house, turned out my mother also feared that area and never said anything to prevent the children from having fear. There was some kind of negative energy there as a child it was a ghost as an adult it was just some weird juju. I wish I could believe in any form of afterlife, but I know when you are dead it is just as it was before you were born, nothing. Houdini said if there was a way back he would find it, no Houdini sightings.
I really never gave it much thought. I was like you. This is all there is, till I saw my first ghost or spirit, then I doubted that this is all there is. Either way... I dont really care I'm out to enjoy my life. NOW
I never was afraid of death or dying, But I'm in no hurry to end what we have here either. I enjoy my senses and I enjoy being alive so for as long as I'm healthy I want to be here. After that... we'll see WTF happens.
My rational mind would say otherwise. If someone "sees" ghosts, chances are there is a rational and logical alternative explanation rather than simply believing it's a ghost. Ever hear the expression "your mind can play tricks on you?"
Considering such events would be fresh on your mind, it affirms my previous statement. You may be seeing who you want to see, even subconsciously.
See previous two statements.
Well, you can believe that.
As I said, belief does not equal fact and I try not to go by mere belief.
I'll "believe" it when there is empirical evidence for it.
I do believe that we have but one life and to be a good person as we live it is of the greatest importance. I have experienced auditory hallucinations which I expect everyone does as well. Have you ever heard your name called and no one was there, it seems very real yet we dismiss it quickly. How would you know if you experienced a hallucination? Would you do so if it were simply something that did not seem out of place, you would not even know it was a hallucination, but what if the hallucination was peculiar or alarming such as a deceased or spectral manifestation. I also expect that given the capabilities of technology we would have irrefutable evidence of some kind of specters much like evidence for UFO's. We saw photos by the dozen from the fifties of suspect alien craft but now that everyone has a video camera at their fingertips nothing of value.
I have not seen a ghost but............
After my son died there were many unexplainable things that occurred in my house.
Here is one example that defies logic etc.
My husband went to pick up dinner, prior to that he started a load of laundry.
I was in the basement which is the family/bar/etc. room
A few minutes after he left I heard a loud click like someone hitting a light switch real hard.
I thought maybe a circuit breaker tripped. Checked and all were fine.
After my husband came home he asked about the laundry and had I switched loads.
I told him no I did not but when I went to the washer it was full of suds and water. And lo and behold the button for the washer machine had been pushed in (which stops the washer).
The “loud” click I heard was that and I was the only one at home and I did NOT do that myself.
It was my son playing a trick on me because there is no other explanation.
I have no problem with that. I didn't believe till I saw one with my own eyes either.
But IF you ever do see a ghost or spirit, you would probably believe as well. It hard not to after seeing one, even harder after two or three.
Why would I have a hallucination ? I have no medial reason, I seriously was not under that much stress r ever really griefing that much and I have never had any other kind of experience that would classify as a hallucination or any where close to seeing dead people.
I dont know what the fuck it was I do know I saw dead people "appear" three times. It still is freeky to me. I have had no problems mentally or otherwise that would suggest this was anything other than an after life appearance whether I wanted or liked it or not.
any explanation anyone wants to believe is their choice. I know what I saw, what I believe and why. I Also dont expect to ever see it again.
Not trying to burst your bubble, but there could be a number of other explanations. Also, why would you assume it was your son playing a trick on you? Had he turned off the washer mid cycle frequently before he passed? Would it be impossible for you to have pressed it while thinking about something else and not remembering at all? The other night I was looking for the water pitcher we keep in our fridge, my wife said she hadn't seen it, it wasn't anywhere to be found, until I found it in an upper kitchen cupboard where we keep the glasses, neither of my two young daughters could reach the upper cupboards and neither my wife or I remember putting it there, but obviously one of us did. It's a much easier explanation than to think it might have been my grandmother who passed recently. Besides, if a ghost or spirit could have some physical effect on the material world, why would it choose to push a button on the washer or hide a water pitcher as its one act? And if it was something extremely easy for a spirit or ghost to do such that they use it on silly tricks, why wouldn't they be doing it all the time? We would have thousands of cell phone videos by now of things levitating, moving by themselves and getting pushed or pulled if this was some sort of regular occurrence where the supposed spirit world interacted with the material world.
No, there is no other explanation. I was the only home at the time and I did not go any where near the washer.
He also came to me in a dream.....in the dream we were standing by my car and he said "the car is wrecked"......I freaked out and told my husband as I was convinced that I was going to get into a car accident. This dream occurred on Sunday night into Monday morning. Luckily I did not BUT his ex wife did. On Friday she had posted the following.....Never drive when sleepy, I crashed my car my baby is wrecked.
I have no idea, this however did remind me of an incident that happened years before anyone I loved had died.
I was married, we had gone out , when we returned home the attic opening was open and was siting just up on the rafters at an angle. We never did figure out how it got like that. She said she didn't do it and I knew I hadn't. There was no other sign anyone had been in our home either... just frickin weird !!
that sounds more like coincidence than any proof of ghosts or spirits. Why didn't your son in your dream tell you who or when the car would be wrecked ? seems more coincidental than anything else, at least in my opinion.
no other explanation
After we saw the attic opening open we wondered for years WTF opened that, was someone really in our home that day ? Was it a "spirit' ? Was it the wind ? WTF really did cause that attic opening to open ? We never knew ! LOL
After my father died, we were getting ready to leave PA and head back to Arkansas. My husband was outside smoking a cigarette when the car suddenly locked itself (the lights would flash when locked). Mr G swears the keys were in his pocket. It did it again and he said, "Dad, is that you? If it is, do it again." The car did it again.
Now...my daughter has this car. She says that sometimes it will lock/unlock itself. I asked her if it does this during very cold weather, and she said yes. When we were in PA that time, it was well below freezing. I think the car has a problem with extreme temps and does funny stuff. So that's ghost story debunked....somewhat. Mr G still believes that my dad did it.
Ok try this one, I had a dream one night about a huge hotdog in a parking lot, my wife and son were there with me and someone I hadn't seen for several years was also there, it was weird and just a dream right? So later the same day we head to the city to run errands for my business and my wife and son go with me, my son wants to stop at the mall, we stop go in for a while and when we get out across the parking lot at a motel is the famous wiener car setting there, my wife and son want to go over there to get pictures and there is a man standing there taking pictures and lo and behold it is the man I hadn't seen in a while the same one from my dream we talk and find he had only came over to take pictures because his wife wanted him to do it and was only there a minute before we showed up and was leaving as we showed up and I mentioned it to my son and wife afterward that what just happened was my dream that morning. Explanation please, this isn't the only instance, but many have happened over the years and I have had someone else related a similar happening which caused a fight with his wife. My test to you is try remembering your dreams and see if they would relate to anything that happens to you later.
any sane person would, I did. I also saw nor found any reasonable explanation for what I had seen. I still don't.
I do not believe it was self induced there was no proof of that either. I did not want nor ask for what I saw. I did not use any drugs or alcohol that would have induced hallucinations I have no medical condition that would either. I also was not grieving any more than I have at many times in my life. No I do not believe it was self induced I believe I saw a ghost. 3 of them 3 different times and three different relatives.
Why I have NO idea ! No rational idea at all.
You're welcome to believe whatever you like and if it gives you some level of comfort then more power to you. The fact is that even placebo's can have some positive effect on our lives, and if believing that makes you less sad or feel more complete then maybe that's exactly why your brain is providing you with the experiences you need to get you through something that none of us ever want to deal with such as the loss of a child. Sadly, in some cases, this can have the opposite or severely negative effects on some peoples lives. I have an aunt who firmly believes in the afterlife, spirits and ghosts and ended up spending what could have been my cousins college fund on psychics and supposed mediums. As long as you benefit from the belief and don't end up harming yourself or those around you then there's no reason to look the gifted ghost horse in the mouth. Personally, I'd rather examine my experiences through a critical lens and doubt than to jump to extraordinary conclusions.
My husband had an experience too and he was home alone at the time....he was watching tv, got up to do something, came back and the channel was not the same channel he had on when he left the living room. It was on comedy central when he returned to the living room playing the Beverly Hillbillies which my son liked to watch and my husband did not watch.
ME TOO !!
But, when reality touches the unreal. what then ? Seeing dead people for no apparent reason is unreal.
LOL
I have never been to a psychic though I really would like to but with so much info available online I hesitate to go to one.
Unless I visit Lily Dale where you can just walk up to one to get a reading.
But a friend of mine went to one and when I came back to work after being off over a month after my husband died she told me about her reading and the psychic mentioned my husband and my son. This friend of mine had never met my husband nor my son.
although there may be "gifted" people. IMO, most psychics are con-people after one thing, your cash. beings I cant afford to be coned or cradled I dont have any desire to visit a psychic.
"Hallucinations can also occur as a result of extreme tiredness or recent bereavement ."
Considering that what you may have experienced isn't common, it's rare for those experiences not to be connected to some identifiable malady such as schizophrenia, Parkinson's, dementia, even macular degeneration, it's also not unheard of being merely a symptom of extreme tiredness or recent bereavement. Without accepting that as a possibility it seems that one might be jumping to conclusions to become fixed on the idea that it's actual proof of spirits or ghosts.
I agree, however when there is no evidence of tiredness, disease or even real bereavement one does have to consider the estream possibility one really did just see a ghost. unreal as it may seem. I didn't just decide to say hey I saw a ghost....
Who the fuck wants that ? Not I.
Possible hallucination? Anything is possible .. probable hallucination... very doubtful considering all the evidence in my cases.
i think that would be very interesting - given that the person isn't a con artist and has some actual psychic ability.
Hallucinations are simply a result of the complexities of the neural system we possess, much like the fallibility of memory, as a normal human I expect you have experienced quite a few hallucinations that due to the unremarkable nature were not perceived as such. Was there actually someone on the corner that when you looked again was not there and natural inclination didn't question that they "probably" went around the corner.
Nope, but I promise I'll re-evaluate this position the moment a single shred of verifiable evidence of their existence comes forth.
Will never happen as my brain always goes for a logical explanation over magic
Yes it does, you're forgetting the faith over evidence part of my previous statement.
I reject that.
I do not believe people see hallucinations on a "regular' bases. Seeing something briefly or out of focus or out of your main vission are not hallucinations they are optical illusions. What I saw was not optical illusions, and I highly doubt they were any kind of hallucination either.
There was no logical reason for me to be having hallucinations. I wasn't really that torn up about the deaths. They were expected.
I didn't ask for nor want to see what I did. And I see no reason it would have been my mind playing a trick on me in any way. I was not drunk, on drugs, really grieving or tired or sick or anything but normal.
but I did see dead people appear for a brief few seconds three times.
and I have no "concrete" evidence of it.
Go figure.
So by your standards are you required to see a thing to believe it exists ?
If so, have you seen everything you currently believes exists ? EVERYTHING ?
WOW. If so good for you, you have lived a much fuller life than I.
If I see a ghost or spirit, I will probably see a psychologist for an evaluation.
There can be any number or reasons. Like I said, the mind can play tricks on you.
Did you have a psych eval done to make sure?
Loose springs or hinges?
So you jumped to the conclusion it must have been a ghost?
Sounds like a plot to an M. Night Shyamalon movie.
What evidence? The only "evidence" you presented is subjective and anecdotal.
Or maybe there is an explanation that you just do not realize or considered.
my word for the fact I was not tired, not sick nor griefing and not having repeated hallucinations.
therefore, I see no logical reason I would be having hallucinations where I would be seeing dead people.
I maintain I did not hallucinate and I did see dead people. What evidence do you have that I didn't ?
LOL....I agree !!!
Nope, It was just a square board covering an attic opening. It had to be moved straight up even because it sat between two rafters. Damndest thing, I can still see it sitting there cockeyed up on the rafters instead of down in its hole. weird shit !!
"So you jumped to the conclusion it must have been a ghost?"
No not really, it looked like a ghost, it looked like my dead relative and I never saw it again. WTF would you call that ?
I sure wouldn't have called it an hallucination because I'm not in the habit of hallucinating anymore than I'm in the habit of seeing ghosts.
There's only so many places and ideas for what and why. When NONE of them seem realistic. you are left with what you witnessed.
that gate swings both ways
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?" Sherlock Holmes (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
He also wrote "One should always look for a possible alternative, and provide against it."
I simply believe that you have not eliminated all possible alternatives before you fixated on the supernatural as your explanation. But that's just me, you can believe what you want to believe.
Is that what I said? Or did I actually say something along the lines of wanting verifiable evidence? For future reference you'll probably want to avoid putting things (including words) in other peoples mouths (especially people ya don't know)
Thank you, I have lived a full life (hopefully much more to come). I don't know you so can't really compare it to yours, though I'm sure you've lived as full a life as you could.
Well I certainly dont think I was "nuts" my mental state was fine, I dont think I hallucinated (there is nothing to indicate that) I know it was not just an optical illusion (there was no reason it would have been) and I wasn't on booze or drugs but yet I saw a dead person briefly standing in front of me. Now,That's not natural.
To me I did eliminate any possibilities I could come up with. What I am left with for sure is: I still do not know for sure what I saw but I do know I very briefly saw a dead person who appeared alive and present before me. period what, why, how, I do not know.
I know if it would have been a stranger and not my brother I would have fuckin freeked out imedately big time !!
It was by far the strangest thing I have ever witnessed and I witnessed it three times with three different relatives.
......Lol And that's my story and I'm stickin to it...
I 100 % agree, thanks for the kind words as well.
I like what lloyd said, too.
I do think you're getting hammered here, and I apologize for my part in it.
Yes you were, you tried to frame it in a ridiculous question but you failed. And no I'm not going to address the question because you, I, and anyone else who read it recognizes it as a ridiculous and feeble attempt to either deflect the conversation or possibly drag some sort of pathetic and tiny victory out of our discussion.
Agreed.
Come on, folks, we're better than this. Steve believes he saw something. He is not insisting that we believe him, nor even expecting us to accept his personal anecdotes as objective evidence of an afterlife. In fact, I believe that several times now, he has admitted that it's not. Can't we lay off him a bit?
Subjective and anecdotal.
What evidence do you have to support your claims for ghosts other than because you said so?
Imagination.
And ghosts are realistic?
Other than your self diagnosis, did you get professionally cleared?
I think I have stated my believes my story and my reasonings enough.
I saw what I saw, call it what ever ya want, believe it or not, no one but I was there and IMO what anyone else really thinks doesn't really matter much. It's my life and my experience. I just shared what I thought about this being all there is.
I'm done here thanks for playing one and all
Why thank you Lloyd. It’s nice that you recognize I’m not out to “convince” anyone I am just as you put it “reporting” my experience.
I don’t doubt that many doubt me and my story. I would. I also understand that over explaining and over and over explaining the same thing is futile after a point. I feel I reached that point. There’s no since in reposting what I’ve already stated.
However that is the chance you take when you share some of your life’s experiences freely.
Thanks again for the support. It’s nice and makes future sharing easier.
steve
Thanks again, I kinda knew what I was getting myself in for just by sharing to begin with.
I also knew about how much I was willing to take because of my share.
Like I said when you choose put yourself out there and share (especially a bizarre or controversial subject) you better be prepared to take some skeptical criticism, that's normal. When I do it, I'm also cognitive of how much crap I'm willing to put up with over what I say before I've had enough. When I had had enough, I said so.
Thankfully so far my request has been respected.
Thanks again, steve
Please allow me to share a good video about why we should be cautious about our "memories" and why we should be terrified at the prospect of being judged, jailed, slandered, or prosecuted because of someone else's "memory".
This is why so many of us are skeptical of even our own "memories".
It sure is! Thanks for this.
I also want to share that as humans, the majority of us want the same things - health, happiness and love.
Some people go to extraordinary lengths exploring and considering all the possibilities.
You are welcome.
I researched the fallibility of human memory after receiving notice that I was on call for jury duty last year.
I gained insight into how my memories can be detrimental to my life if I allow it. I also learned why I should not argue with other people based on my and/or their memory of what was done and said.
I am learning to live in the present with an eye to the future. This is proving to be beneficial to my mental and physical health.
What you have posted is true, yet from personal experience I can understand that Steve's experience can be valid as relayed.
I believe it was my first post on this site in a similar discussion I relayed when my cousin called out to me, shouting my name which instantly woke me.
I hadn't seen or spoken to him for years.
He was a reservist Army attack helicopter pilot and had been in every major operation since Panama. During the early stages of Iraq II he had a layover in German. He had the same need for speed addiction I used to have. At the offer to ride a high powered bike we could not get here at the time, he took one for a spin. Although at that time i was not aware, some point during the ride he died. What I do know is he shouted out addressing me by name, which woke me.
About 12 hours later I got a call at my desk from my Mother, telling me of my cousin's death.
There are more aspects to the story I have not conveyed as they will be more unbelievable.
Unfortunately, an esteemed member here thought it was a good time to pounce on fresh meet while using a middle school, half assed, non-applicable analogy to ridicule.
From my personal experience as relayed above, I can understand that Steve's experience could very well be exactly as relayed.
I understand from personal experience what my mind is capable of believing so I don't doubt that other people have had similar experiences.
In my case, I understand I experienced those events because I was programmed to believe that good and evil spirits were all around us every day trying to guide and influence our lives. It was my Christian duty to be aware of those spirits and not fall into the traps laid by evil spirits so I did not unknowingly become a minion of Satan.
I quit "seeing" spirits by the time I reached 20. I quit "feeling" spirits in my 50s (when I became an atheist).
I appreciate what you are saying.
Personally, I have never seen a spirit. By that time my faith in what we call God had waned. I gave it little thought. Also, I should state, to me, my experience is not a proof of a spirit realm, rather something in this universe with the potential to connect us all. What exactly facilitated that even, I do not know. All I know is, it happened. I was laying dead asleep at one moment and the next my cousin is shouting in my ear.
I had not thought of him for years. In hindsight, I do not know why he was going to Iraq. Really, I thought he was too old. Although, I know some other folks who were over there in their later years.
After death as sentient beings with complete and infallible memories of our lives (regardless of it was 1 day or a century)?
Or as a non sentient part of the energy of existence?
I wish I could answer those questions. Initially I thought a non sentient part of the energy of existence.
Then I began considering the other and give credence to the possibility of each.
I should clarify my interpretation of the event. I took the experience as hearing my cousin's voice as he passed.
Straw man. I've never heard a single atheist say they know everything that can be known.
Many believers, however, always seem to think they know the answer to all - God.
The only rational way you can state that God doesn’t exist is to have all knowledge that can be know. Otherwise it’s only conjecture
TiG already addressed this above. Most atheists are agnostic atheists. We don't state that there is no god. We see no evidence of god, so we have no reason to believe there is one - yours, or any others.
I agree that one would have to be omniscient to state, with certainty, that no god (creator of the known universe) exists.
Also, without evidence, claiming that your God exists is mere conjecture.
The most sensible, defensible and honest claim one can make regarding the existence of the creator of the known universe is 'I do not know'. Agnostic atheists and agnostic theists both claim 'I do not know'. The difference is that the agnostic theist thinks a god is more likely than not whereas an agnostic atheist holds the opposite position.
That is a false anology. You do not need to have all of the knowledge for there not to be a god.
There is currently no empirical evidence that god exists. Religious belief is the opposite of facts so it is not proof of god.
Where is the evidence that your god or any other god exists? I can claim that there is a teapot orbiting between Mars and Saturn. Can you prove that there isn't?
I am claiming there is a God. Prove me wrong;. Go for it,
There have been many times when I doubted, but He always comes back.
Based on your claim, you have the burden of proof.
Anyone can make a claim. I could claim that Leprechauns exist. (Lots of sightings and stories. We even know what they look like.) But unless I back up my claim, it is nothing more than bullshit.
So here is the thing. I am not convinced a God exists. You assert that your God exists. Okay, offer your evidence and reasoning and let's see if you can be persuasive.
You made the first claim, so, prove it. I am not here to persuade you as I don't care if you do or don't.
I made a statement. God exists. You don't even need to respond. I'd like to hear from Episette.
He made no positive claim. He said he doesn't know, so he has nothing to prove.
You, however, did make a positive claim, and in the absence of evidence, you're just telling us that you believe in god, with no reason to do so.
Be happy to. What claim of certainty did I make? Deliver the quote so I know what you are talking about.
You wanted to hear from me and here I am.
There is currently no empirical evidence of any gods existing.
You made the positive claim that something exists, so you need to provide proof that your claim is true. The onus is not on me to prove your claim to ber true. Obviously, I cannot prove a negative, so I can't prove that something does not exist.
When and how did god come back to you?
Most atheists aren't agnostic. That is a fallacy that really doesn't even make sense. You are either agnostic or atheist. Not both.
Other than that though, I generally agree with your religious opinions.
Not only does it make sense, it is a well known mechanism for depicting belief coupled with certainty.
I wrote a blog article on this a while back: Presuming Certainty . However it is easy enough to Google the term 'agnostic atheist' and see this very concept discussed many times.
Most atheists are ag nostic atheists in that they are not convinced a god exists but recognize the possibility. In contrast, the very rare g nostic atheists claim certain truth that no god exists.
On the theist side, most theists (I suspect) are g nostic theists (claiming as certain truth that their God exists). Ag nostic theists, in contrast, believe in their God but accept the possibility that they could be wrong.
Prove yourself right! You made the claim, so you bear the burden of proving it! Otherwise, there is no reason to accept your claim as valid.
Sounds like you only convinced yourself of something. Kind of like an emotional comfort mechanism.
What claim exactly did TiG make?
So prove it! otherwise, your statement is meaningless and invalid!
Thank you for your response...I mean that.
After reading all of the posts, again, I realized I was baiting myself. I will keep my personal life to myself. Again, thank you.
God would have to show up in some demonstrable fashion. Anecdotal evidence from human beings is of no value. Nobody should believe something as important as God simply because another human being says so.
Why respond with such an angry, defensive tone? My response explained why your assessment is probably correct.
Then perhaps you should learn the difference between "know" and "believe".
We can demonstrate that which we know.
You can't demonstrate the existence of god.
Given all the times this has come up, why do you still conflate proof with evidence?
Emotional platitudes are pointless.
Evidence of God would be third-party verifiable observation of a sentient creator. If such evidence was available you would not have to respond with emotion - you would actually have a reasonable argument to offer.
You should learn about the burden of proof. Russell's teapot, etc.
Of course you're not. You're free to have your beliefs dismissed as irrational due to lack of evidence, if you like.
I never said it would, nor do I expect it to do so.
I also am responsible only for my own words. Your misinterpretation of them is on you.
To expose those who are inclined toward logic to the idea that if one makes extraordinary claims, one ought to be able to support them with evidence. Often, folks just pass on what they're told, without examining it to determine if it's likely to be true.
Actually the opposite is true - most atheists are agnostic. The two things measure different traits along orthogonal axis, one about faith in "gods" and the other about knowledge of "gods". Along each axis there are then degrees of assertion or non-assertion. From that perspective most theists are also agnostic if they were honest about it.
So I usually describe myself as an agnostic atheist, although apathetic atheist would be a good description too since I think it wouldn't matter if "gods" actually did exist.
It isn't a problem in any way. I enjoy these debates and I don't take them personally or make personal judgments about the people that I reply to.
What proof do you have that god exists?
When?
The dearth of supporting evidence that god exists says that god does not exist. The Bible was written by man, so it would be circular logic for you to claim that the Bible is proof of God
Where is your empirical evidence that proves or even supports the existence of god? Religious belief is what happens in the lack of evidence.
Sure there is: just present evidence for a god.
Convincing oneself of something doesn't mean it's true.
As you say, "In YOUR opinion." And unless you are omniscient yourself, you cannot possibly "know" that.
And you obviously have no need for credibility either.
Not!
Logical fallacy.
Sounds like you settle for very little then.
In other words, you have nothing but mere belief.
See fourth statement!
Is that what Sandy is trying to do?
We could ask you the same question.
Again with the logical fallacy. And when was that claim made?
Such an inconvenience logic is, right?
He is pretending to not understand to create a strawman that I was telling God what to do instead of what I actually wrote - a description of what would be demonstrable evidence of God.
I'm not so sure he's pretending.
So much better to actually put forth an sound argument. But if one cannot accomplish that some resort to other means.
I think you need to read that comment again.
Apparently it does not matter how often the difference between the lack of belief in a god and the claim there is no god is explained. Some will always read what they want to read (especially if misreading is the best rebuttal one can muster).
I notice you're not quoting it. There is no claim that god does not exist in that comment.
Too true. When one can't logically refute what others actually said, one can feel victorious by trying to refute what they didn't say.
You seem to be having fun misinterpreting them.
Do you not understand the difference between not believing in a god and declaring that no god exists? I am seriously asking (and willing to explain this).
And if you cannot answer that question in a thoughtful fashion I recommend you not answer. This thread is starting to go south.
I'm not sure this is true.
You seem to be using a lack of precision with language in order to claim that I made statements I never made. That's intellectually dishonest.
What you are doing is the intellectual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening to you".
Why do you insist on believing in what doesn't exist? Is God just an emotional safety blanket that you need to exist, even to the point where you don't care if it is a myth? Why do you pray to the god of Abraham instead of Ra, Zeus or Thor when there is equal evidence for their existence?
What would change in your life if you stopped believing in the Christian god?
If God exists to you then why can't you explain to me how that happens?
another dodge - no one should expect anything less i suppose.
Let's now end this trashed thread. This is going nowhere good.
No more snark.
My suggestion is to go back to the topic. Okay?
you'll know when you are on a public forum when anyone can respond to your posts, mmmkay ?
(my apologies to TiG for responding to the unnecessary snark by another poster)
He exists to Me.
And a child's imaginary friend exists to them. But that doesn't mean those friends (or your god) actually exists.
Wow, I always miss reading the juicy replies before they get purple ink'd.
If someone saw it before Perrie deleted it, please tell me by PM.
.
Another word to use might be, " Apatheist" , and I think there are more of us than folk realize.
.
Apatheism: "Do god(s) exist?
I don't know & I don't really care"
This is incorrect. You are correctly describing agnostics, but not atheists. I get that they are close enough for confusion, but they are inherently different. An atheist KNOWS there is no such thing as a god or gods. An agnostic isn't sure. Simple and easy. Creating new categories isn't necessary or even sensible in this regard.
One word (theist vs. atheist) denotes the belief or lack thereof, while the other (gnostic vs. agnostic) describes the degree to which we are convinced our belief (or lack thereof) is true. This allows for more precision in discussing our beliefs. Texan and Mags, for example, would be gnostic theists - 100% convinced of the existence of God. TiG and I (as well as others) are agnostic atheists - we lack belief in god or gods, but acknowledge that the possibility is there.
Atheists do not "know" there is no god. That simply are not convinced there is one or they do no not accept affirmative claims for one. By the same token, theists don't know there's a god either. They simply Believe in one. But claiming or "knowing" there's a god or not is an intellectually indefensible and illogical position.
I agree.
This definitely describes my husband. However, I had to spell "agnostic" for the unit nurse at the VA a couple of years ago because she claimed to have never heard of it. Explaining that he was on the fence about the possibility of the existence of Yahweh seemed to upset her. Changing his religion to "I don't give a fuck" would probably be more than she and his doctor could cope with.
Did you read my article or any of the other articles that deal with the reconciliation of agnosticism with belief?
Peter, you are rejecting these other concepts and insisting that only your definitions are correct.
Semantically these concepts exist:
The lower four concepts do not invalidate the upper four and vice-versa. My article explains the lower four (and illustrates why they are very helpful) so I am not going to go into more detail in a comment. And, as noted, if you do not care to read my article then at least consider the third party treatment of this material.
God did show up in the person of Jesus
According only to the Bible. So, in effect, the evidence is simply a book. A book known to be errant.
What I was describing was God appearing to modern human beings in a third-party verifiable fashion. That never happens. Never. And if it ever did happen it would be the single biggest event in any of our lives.
But. Nothing.
Jesus does appear to people. He has appeared to many including myself, none of which were based upon any request from me. Two were for rebuke, and one to comfort me. God appears to whomever He wills to appear.
Jesus shared the experience of someone who had died and was in Hades because of their heart not too differently from yours
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ Luke 16:19-31
of death and resurrection like other mythical saviors before him.
And of course you have no third party verification. Join the crowd of people claiming to engage the most supreme possible entity yet failing to offer a shred of verifiable evidence.
you should write a new section of the bible to "document" this experience. How did he appear to you ? What are the details ?
how did anyone verify is was God and not Jesus ? Was Jesus just a shell of a human containing God and not really God's "son" ?
I admit it. It was me. I didn't think the joke would carry on for the next 2000 years though. At some point, I assumed people would catch on.
I'm rejecting it because it isn't valid. Your article does nothing to change that. Assuming I didn't read the stuff also changes nothing.
Agnostic is agnostic.
Atheist is atheist.
The two are mutually exclusive.
well that's a lesson learned the hard way, huh ?
(definitely makes me think of a quote from George Carlin....)
The corpus of material on the subject of agnostic atheism / theism is all invalid because you say so?
No, they just describe two different traits. Gnostic / Agnostic concerns knowledge (of gods), Theist / Atheist concerns a faith in gods. "I don't know" isn't the same concept as "I don't believe", but they're definitely not mutually exclusive.
Wait.....are you saying that your first-hand account of a magical Jewish zombie was a hoax?
It might make it easier for you to understand if we used a different example other than simply "God".
If someone claimed that the universe and everything within it was the product of a cosmic space whale that blew the universe we experience out of its galactic blow hole, there might be some who simply accept that as absolute truth because they trust the source who made the claim, the "believers" (or gnostic theists), and there would be those who claim that's completely ridiculous and absolutely not true, the "atheist" (or gnostic atheist). Then you'd might have some who say they like the idea of a cosmic whale and can't disprove that theory, but would accept proof against it if found, they are agnostic theists. And finally you have those who admit they can't disprove the cosmic whale theory, but they don't trust the source making the claim it exists and they see no evidence support their belief in such a thing, but are open to the possibility that someday that proof might be found so they can't rule out the possibility that it exists, but certainly aren't going to live their lives as if it does just because someone else told them too, they are agnostic atheists.
To ask someone "Do you believe in the cosmic space whale?" without any proof of its existence might seem silly to most of us, which is exactly how most gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists feel about being asked "Do you believe in God?". I myself prefer the idea of a cosmic space whale to the idea of an omniscient creator who is as describes in the bible, regretful, jealous and angry, who supposedly punishes his creations for eternity in abject horror and pain for their handful of years not doing what it wanted while on planet earth. And considering there is as much evidence of a cosmic whale as their is the God of the bible, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I can't prove either don't exist, so I refrain from claiming that they definitely don't exist as debating anything with zero evidence is pointless.
Same here. IMO it is not possible to know if a god (defined as creator of the known universe) exists. That alone is an agnostic view. However, based upon my personal analysis (over many years), I have long since concluded that there is insufficient (actually no) evidence to persuade me that a god exists. Thus I remain unconvinced that a god exists. God (as defined) is still possible and I accept that possibility but am not persuaded to believe it is true.
When did Jesus appear to you most recently?
I agree, though I also think that some peoples claim of a certain specific God based on their own literature make some even less likely than just a "God" in general. When your source material has obvious and easily refuted claims such as many biblical claims if taken literally, that to me reduces their likelihood of actually existing below that of a cosmic space whale, flying spaghetti monster or any other God or gods that some humans have professed belief in throughout the ages.
If there was a book all about the supposed cosmic space whale that says light is made of whale spit that wiggles in a random zig zag fashion, because we have evidence of what light actually is, electromagnetic radiation within a certain portion of the electromagnetic spectrum with visible light usually defined as having wavelengths in the range of 400–700 nanometres, then it would reasonably reduce a logical thinkers belief in said cosmic space whale.
Thus, many documents that proclaim some divine origin might actually reduce the veracity of said claims when the other supposed facts within are disproved. So while I have no evidence that some God or creator may or may not exist, I don't really believe the God described in the bible exists. But that still doesn't make me a Gnostic atheist. I have no reason to believe in any divine creator, but hold out the possibility that such evidence could exist, humans simply have not been exposed to it and thus none can empirically prove their case. And some who over step their bounds and make claims such as the age of the earth, age of the universe or claim that the evidence supporting evolution is false because their book said God created man as he is without any evolution process, in my mind it lessens the possibility that their other claims are true.
Agreed. It is for that very reason I always define god as 'creator of the known universe'. That god is possible. The biblical God, however, is impossible. (I can back that up based on how God is defined in the Bible.)
Well said.
Exactly. I often note that the more attributes and stories one attaches to one's god, the less likely the god is and the harder it is to evidence the god.
Why would god need to cosplay? Of course, there is absolutely nothing to verify that claim either.
Sounds like a psychological condition.
Why? Because you say so?
You either read it or you didn't. Which is it?
A simplistic understanding at best. Of course, TiG explains it much better and in further detail.
Apatheist is me. I like that description. I couldn't give a fuck if god exists or not. My like continues to be the same
Tuesday on the 700 club
I think that I have that channel blocked. It would require a severe level of traumatic brain injury for me to want to watch religious programming.
More like religious programming might cause brain damage.
If it was possible for me to turn off my frontal lobe I might enjoy religious "programming", but that is neither possible or wanted.
The only rational way you can state that God exists is to have all knowledge that can be know. Otherwise it’s only conjecture and fairy tales
See it works both ways.
There is nothing rational about believing a god created anything, especially since you can't even prove there's a god.
No, that just means the earth formed like any other planet. It's a natural phenomenon. There's nothing "divine" or magical about it.
That is just an assumption and an appeal to ignorance.
Given the infinite universe, that number may not be as astronomical as you might think.
Such a position is logically and intellectually indefensible, much like stating with absolute certainty there is a god. Atheists in general are not convinced there is a god or do not accept claims for one, especially given the lack of empirical evidence for one.
That's nice. Prove it!
Another baseless assumption. That's no more evidence for a god than it is for fairies, leprechauns, or gnomes.
There's no evidence Jesus was god or even divine. For al you know, he was just another guy.
Your "truth" is lacking actual FACTS to back it up. And when you have to resort to empty and laughable threats from your cosmic boogeyman in an attempt to persuade anyone, then it's clear your argument (such as it is) is lost and you lack all credibility.
Stating god exists is nothing more than conjecture itself, with a splash of wishful and/or delusional thinking. Unless you yourself have "all knowledge than can be known," then you cannot state god exists with certainty either.
Drives me crazy when people try to spout the perfect world scenario. There is nothing perfect about this planet or our species. There are diseases, infections, cancer, we actually have to eat for energy and sleep to regenerate the mind, are susceptible to the effects of the Sun, cant drink ocean water....the list goes on forever. We got lucky plain and simple.
Laughable. I’m Jesus will appreciate your humor when you appear before Him for your judgment
Bit of a Freudian slip there Larry?
Based upon much of his own comments, it would seem that he thinks he is.
The only thing laughable here are your posts, especially when you can't address or refute points made.
The problem for most atheists is that coming out of the closet violates the central tenet of pretty much all religions - that you're either part of the in-group and thus accepted in the community or you're an outsider. Even folks who belong to other superstitions have more in common with the in-group than those dirty atheists who reject everything we irrationally believe!
The other problem is that because these cults of superstition are so woven into the fabric of society that an out atheist is alienating himself from some important parts of society. That would seem to be the choice TiG's parents made to continue in those societal functions and not rock the boat about something which is ultimately quite trivial.
I have known several people that portray themselves as devout adherents and yet confessed that they were in fact atheists. They were hypocritical out of the very real fear that they would be ostracized by friends and family and shunning is a powerful force which is why it is used, cheap and effective. I once said in conversation to someone that had come out to me about their belief that the hardest word they would ever use to describe themselves is that they were atheist, they seemed surprised and admitted later that it truly was a hard word to say the first time. I hate being right fortunately it seldom happens!
For their parents and the kids and to have venues for weddings or funerals just to list a few good reasons.
Society is, maybe rightfully, damn judgmental if non-believers disillusion little children and aged believers.
Let us be honest. A lot of people just are not ready to handle the truth. Their vanity cannot handle reality.
Most non-believers are happy to not rock the boat and not cause anyone discomfort for no good reasons...
I think people are becoming more comfortable with secular weddings and funerals.
My daughter had a secular wedding and nobody blinked an eye especially her grandparents and her husband's grandparents who are religious.
My funeral will be secular. I've got it all planned.
Maybe after it is thoroughly explained what atheism means.
It does not mean that atheists reject, don't like or hate Yahweh and therefore, must worship Satan.
It does not mean that we are less "spiritual" than anyone else on the planet.
Throughout the history of Christianity, the Christians have tortured, killed and waged war against members of their own religion for belonging to a differing sect. Likely, it will never be safe for anyone (regardless of belief system) who is unfortunate enough to be targeted by Christian zealots as long as there are Christian zealots.
How can you just call Christians out? What about the Muslims who daily murder in the name of Allah? Are you giving them a pass?
There's no difference between the two except that in the US it's primarily the Christians who are the real problem.
No.
Why should any religion that promotes hatred, division, oppression and violence be given a pass for anything?
However, as Shrekk mentioned, in the US it is primarily the Christians that pose the most threat to others outside of their chosen sect of Christianity.
Maybe because, in this country, it's mainly Christians that are causing problems.
Not at all. They suck. But when they start doing that BS here, then we'll call them out too.
That argument obviously applies to Muslims as well because they also pray to the god of Abraham. Muslims are an extreme minority in the US, so they aren't trying to enforce their relgious beliefs with the power of the state.
Why do you think that they would get a logical pass from Atheists? Muslims, like other religions, attack those former members who try to leave the religion.
I suspect that rule applies just about everywhere. Minority sects need to keep their head down and behave lest they incur the wrath of the majority. It's only members of the majoritarian sects who are so arrogant and self-centered that they presume to use the state to impose their sect and sharia laws on everyone else.
Anyone who claimed to be Christian and engaged in violence and hate towards other Christians is NOT a Christian
“We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?” 1 John 3:14-17
“If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20,21
humans should not be considered a Christian if they are truly following the Prince of Peace and Love For ALL. However, there are 30,000 sects of Christianity. Many have waged war against other sects. Some have even tortured and killed members of their own sect for various infractions of the cult's dogma.
WWJD?
Ahhh... the No True Scotsman fallacy.
I can continue of you like.
No True Scotsman!
I bet if you ask any of those people that evilgenius listed if they are a Christian, they will answer in the affirmative
it takes a very inflated ego to think you have the authority to determine who is and who isn't a "Christian", an authority that you do not possess since there are no specific concrete guidelines to who is or isn't a "Christian" - it's the No True Scotsman Fallacy
Inflated ego is one of the reasons that there are 30,000 sects of the Christian religion claiming to be the one and only, truer than true Christian church.
And then there are those who speak for God as if they have clue one about the views of the hypothesized most supreme possible entity.
"And then there are those who speak for God as if they have clue one about the views of the hypothesized most supreme possible entity."
I take it HUMAN "Science" and "Logic" proved that not possible ?
No. Why do you ask?
Those who make the claims have the burden of proof. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Something quite a bit more than 'because I said so'.
Exactly !
"And then there are those who speak for God as if they have clue one about the views of the hypothesized most supreme possible entity."
Don't get sucked in. He'll continue to repeat the same comment over and over and over and think it's something entirely new and clever
Good. All settled then.
I know, verrrrry strange behavior.
Forget ?
That was your "Unscientific Logical?" statement of another.
Forget ?
A non-existent can't be "Proven" one way or another !
I'll bet they call that "Faith" !
Off Topic "BF"
Is that another person afraid of exposing their atheist identity out of fear?
It's Tape Face from American Got Talent Season 11. I want to support my friend Tig's article, and am stunned into silence. (Smile.)
I loved tape face.
I do think that atheists should be able to come out of the closet without shame. My daughter made her views known on FB. It was sad that she wasn't universally accepted by her friends that knew her well...some friends did drop her, but most did not.
I am more vocal about my views in my PL now too.
She was brave, all those I have known are not willing to risk the shunning, I truly wonder if it is worth the risk as one can know themselves and yet not carry a banner. I live in an extremely backward religious area and while I don't deny who I am I don't run it up the flagpole either, suspicions alone have cost me in a public employment.
See my comment to TiG. We are living in the closet while championing those who live their truth. We need to live ours too.
Hi fireryone!
I certainly agree that atheists should not have to deal with the stigma of being one who is not convinced there is a god. But given the stigma exists, is it wrong for people to live their lives in a conforming fashion and not share the facts that they (no longer) are convinced a god exists?
No, it isn't. People still have to live in a society and interact with other people. If conforming helps you in your day to day life, then I don't fault anyone for it.
I've told my friends and family that I don't believe in God and I don't get much push back from it...until the beer starts flowing then one idiot has to start up with me.
I find that weird, where I am sober or drunk religion or non-religion isn't really a conversation that's had simply because most don't consider it an important topic. At parties we'd rather talk about sports, stupid crap we've seen or done, cars, chicks and occasionally stop a drunk from falling in the fire pit.
I have a few friends who think it's cool to get me riled up when I'm drinking so they start in with the politics and religion. And they're not really my friends, they belong to Mr Giggles.
My new solution is to just look at them like they just grew a new head and ask anybody if they need a beer while I'm up
Lol very adult of you, not as fun as other possibilities but adult
Hi TiG, good to see you. I've been the master at covering...I started calling nature and natural events "god". But no more...I now admit to being a non believer. Mostly because I admire the LGBTQ people for standing up for who they are, I saw no more justification in my denial of being an atheist. Life is too short to live only to please others.
The stigma needs to end. Only without religion will we ever be able to be rational.
Life is hell when you have to ignore your own desires and instead live to please others.
be back later
We'll keep the light on for you Mango!
Popping in on this article...
I think that people should be free to make the decision to stay in the religion closet or not. I totally relate to the described scene and I can get how one would want to remain in the closet.
Of course not.
When you can prove there is no God, then there might be something to talk about in terms of the worth of people being ambivalent about how they behave toward religion.
Who's trying to do that? Proving the nonexistence of something is a logical fallacy. Perhaps theists should try to prove there is a god, especially since they're the ones typically making the claim for or on behalf of one.
Is that not an impossible requirement?
Should All Atheists Come Out of the Closet?
As I look upon religion or the lack of it a personal matter, I myself feel no need to proclaim my beliefs or lack there of them. If it happens to come up in the normal course of conversation, I am more than happy to discuss my thoughts but as I said feel no need to shout them from the rooftops.
Like politics, religion or the lack of it seems to have become a team sport complete with fans rooting for their side.
Most atheists I know are like you. I know of only a few who are evangelists like Dawkins, Harris or the leaders of the FFRF.
Percentage wise I suspect theists are generally like you too but the bible-babblers are just louder and there's lots more of them in absolute numbers.
atheists have little or nothing to gain by proclaiming their position, the same can't be said of theists as they are financially rewarded by indoctrinating into their fold. It always comes down to motivation.
I have been reading the comments here, and doing some thinking before I wanted to comment.
Being Native American I have a different view of what 'religion' is. Of what 'God' is. As most here already know, I practice the ancient religion of my Cherokee ancestors. We believe in a being greater than human existence, yet, one that is not intrusive in our lives. The Creator, who many Native Americans call the Great Spirit, is the one who has created our planet and all that lives upon and within it, including mankind.
But, The Creator's rules for mankind is very simple; Be truthful, Be respectful of all living entities on Mother Earth and in Father sky, Be compassionate of those who are less fortunate than yourself and in need of help, Understand that all living entities on earth, including mankind, are all connected, and all depend on one another for the earth to flourish and exist.
I am not a Christian, nor do I wish to be, thus, I am not associated with any organized religion. I do not believe there is a Hell after death, but, the Hell we may create here on earth by how we live our own lives here on earth.
I believe that our time here on earth is but one step in our own eternal journey, and once our life here on earth comes to an end, our Spirit will continue to move on to the next step of our eternal journey. And I believe in reincarnation. As we may live many different lives here on earth.
The religious beliefs of the Cherokee are very Spiritual, and while we believe in a Superior entity, we believe that they are good, compassionate, loving and understanding of our faults, as we were not intended to be perfect. The beliefs of the Cherokee religion may not suit everyone, and that is not a problem. I am not ashamed of my beliefs, and I am more than willing to accept the beliefs of others, no matter how or what they choose to believe.
I don't think anyone should be fearful of their belief, no matter what it is. To be fearful of how one believes in this day and time is not really necessary. If you are proud of who you are and not fearful of others knowing who you are, then why be fearful of what you believe, as it is a part of who you are as a person.
Just my own opinion.
To me, as a person, it matters not what others believe or disbelieve. We are all individuals on this vast planet filled with many different people of many different walks of life, customs, traditions and languages.
For any one groups of people to think that they are superior to others is being untruthful to themselves, and unfair to others, as no one human species is superior to any other. While there may be some that are not as advanced or as well educated as others, they are not inferior to any other people.
Nor, are those who have a belief in God superior to those who do not believe in God, or any other supreme being. The belief that Christians are superior to those who are not Christians is a total fallacy. There are others who believe in other types of religious beliefs that do not believe in the Christian teachings, but, they are not inferior to Christians, or any other peoples.
The fallacy that only Christians will only be acceptable to God, and they alone are the only moral and humble beings, is a very prominent one. But, if this is true. then I am glad that I am not a Christian. As I believe that people are the determining factor of whether or not they are moral or humble people.
There are good and bad people in this world, and it does not appear that Christians are the only ones who are without sin.
I myself would like to see more of those who are non-believers come out of the closets and be true to themselves, and to others. There is no shame in being someone who does not believe in God. This world is, and always will be, a world where both kinds of people are welcome to exist.
We are one as a people, and we are all connected with Mother Earth and all living beings that exist here on Mother Earth. We are all Brothers and Sisters, no one more important or superior than the other.
It is not what one believes that defines who we are, it is what is in our hearts that truly matters.