Why many societies still expect women to be subservient to men and the connotations in relation to religion / religious belief:
Let me just start off by saying that my family up to the generation before me were baptized and raised Catholic. I was, according to my mother, “baptized” by my great-grandmother, because my mother and father didn’t “belong” to any church parish and wouldn’t allow them to get me baptized by anyone at any church until they would agree to join a parish. Toward the end of her life, my grandmother even began questioning her own faith for several reasons, but I still made sure that she received the Catholic mass and funeral that she would’ve wanted. I was the one that called the Catholic church down the street from me; it’s a gorgeous one at that, by the way. I was the one that spoke with Father Ptak and made the arrangements. I explained that most of my family had left the church; however, my grandmother had belonged to a church up north, where she’d recently moved from, but also explained that this wasn’t for the living family, it was for my Catholic grandmother. He was very understanding and said that if everyone can simply donate what they could, he wouldn’t charge us anything for her mass. The family and friends that attended raised more than $1000 that day. That church is very old and needs constant upkeep, I still donate to them from time to time even though I don’t attend.
See... I was taught to question everything. And despite my household being “traditional” in the sense of gender roles [my mother being a stay at home wife and mom to me, an only child], I bucked those traditions in several ways. At 7, my mother and father separated, and I was forced to live in a home with people I didn’t even know because my mother has/had no marketable skills to financially support us. I swore then, that I would never be financially dependent on another person and I would do whatever it took to never be in such a position. I started doing odd jobs at 8; helping my now stepdad collect on news routes, helping the neighbor weed their garden, shoveling snow, etc. I began working at 14 on paper as a hostess at a restaurant; that was pretty short-lived because they were terrible to their staff. However, at 15 / 16, I started working at Burger King at the drive-thru window... this was before fast food places had more than one drive-thru window. I worked as much as I was allowed. When someone called off, I was the first to volunteer to take their shift. I worked all summer. I saved up for my first car and the first payment of insurance, which was in my own name. At 17, I did co-op through my auto shop class and worked at Firestone changing oil and tires. That’s when I started my automotive journey. Fast forward a little, I went to school for aircraft maintenance and repair immediately after graduating high school. That got me into prototype automotive work. Fast forward a little more, I was working for a military contractor, making decent enough money, but I was doing the work of an operations supervisor and the only one that would recognize the work I was actually doing was my immediate supervisor. His supervisor wouldn’t even change my title to operations coordinator, because God forbid, I get a raise. I was the only female in that shop as well as every other shop I’d worked in. I decided then, it was time to return to school and get a degree. Keep in mind, I had already been married, had my daughter, divorced, and then remarried and had my son; so I was married with two kids and returned to school. Upon my graduation, during the exit interview, I was asked, “What do you attribute to your astonishing achievements,” [I graduated Summa Cum Laude with a 3.97 GPA] and my reply was, “I was already doing the job that I was getting my degree in.” Yes, I ended on a preposition.
Now, let’s bring us to today. My husband has been the stay at home parent in our household while I work to be the financial provider. This is not “traditional” by any means and we have received a lot of flack for it. Even from our own families. My mother is the only one that has NOT made any sort of comment in regard to our unconventional home even though several generations in our family have been “traditional.” However, as I previously stated, there’s been no religion involvement since the generation before mine [my mother and her siblings were all raised Catholic and ditched the faith once adults]. I’m not the first of my family to “buck society” though. A great aunt of mine was in love once, but her love never returned from WWI. She never married but was financially comfortable. She was a steno clerk at a Detroit courthouse. She revealed later in life that she was never “lonely” despite never marrying. She even purchased her own first car in 1910. She was one of only a few back then that chose not to accept religion as it stood / stands. She scoffed at the notions that religion offered.
This article is spurred by a few discussions in articles written by Gordy. I have found a couple scholarly articles on the title subject. I will first state how I feel and what I’ve personally witnessed in regard to gender roles and religion. I have witnessed the evolution of those gender roles being ignored in those that are NOT religious [I say religious as in organized religion], while those that still follow and practice religion in their homes also still following the “traditional” gender role situation. By that I mean, woman / wife either staying home or having some menial job, while the man / husband being the primary, if not sole financial provider. I’m not only speaking of Catholicism, but rather many Christian-based religions. Those of Islamic faith are another “animal” altogether. I will not be going there in this article. I’ve been to Catholic churches and Baptist camps. I’ve had long discussions with a Rabbi. I’ve even had long conversations with Chaldeans, which are middle eastern Christians. I’ve witnessed “Christian” men / husbands treating their women / wives as subservient.
It appears that my assessment on this subject is not the only one. From a scholarly article on the subject, “Religion and gender inequality: The status of women in the societies of world religions,” by Kamila KLINGOROVÁ, Tomáš HAVLÍČEK:
- “All world religions today maintain male social dominance within societal structures (Young, 1987). On the other hand, women are more inclined to participate in religious life (Hamplová, 2013, 2011; Renzetti and Curran, 1999).”
- “Also, religious norms and prejudices may reflect patriarchal values (Nešpor, 2008), which are characteristic of all societies of the world religions (Seguino, 2011). The role of God, or a creator of a religion, is always taken by a male and the woman is primarily valued as a mother, especially as a mother to a son. Her place is in the household, less so at religious ceremonies or in public positions. The real status of a woman in a religion is more complicated, however, as in some religions certain women have acquired significant posts (Holm, 1994).”
- “In the histories of religions, the voice of women is rarely heard, due to the patriarchal dispositions of societies in which these religions emerged, and which eventually stifled some of the changes in the status of women triggered by these new religions. The world religions all agree on the respect for women and their crucial role in family life, especially with emphasis on women as mothers and wives. They do not, however, advocate emancipation in the sense of total equality with men.”
Despite religion not being part of the workplace, there’s still connotations that point to that social structure; more so in the US and former communist countries... at least in my experience [I work for a global company]. Oddly enough, the countries that seem to be a bit more progressive include but are not limited to Germany and Sweden. It wasn’t until a man from Sweden became CEO of a local steel mill in 2007 that women became part of the executive board beyond secretarial services. Similarly, until Mary Barra became CEO of GM in 2014, that women were appointed to the executive board. I have theories in regard to why Mary Barra became CEO too; especially considering that was about the time that GM was under investigation for their knowledge on the ignition cylinder issues and subsequent recalls and the majority of the executive board retired almost immediately after Mary Barra took her position. She dealt with that blame [she was blamed even though she was not in charge during production of the failed product] and debacle with grace and dignity.
I guess my question to you is, in your experiences, do you notice a correlation between religion and gender roles as I have in mine? Lastly, this article is to discuss experiences and thoughts. This is NOT the place to discuss whether or not you believe God does or does not exist. Nor is this the place to discuss actual religions themselves. I WILL delete posts that discuss the aforementioned as well as any scripture.
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Well... here it is. My thoughts.
Very nice and well written. There is gender or role inequality in religion, especially the Abrahamistic religions. The level of inequality might vary depending on the denomination and/or orthodoxy. Notice how God is usually inferred to be male.
Unless you're discussing the movie "Dogma" by Kevin Smith, yes God is usually inferred as Him. I think the only religions that I've ever known that have female or feminine gods are Hindu, Wiccan / Pagan, or Greek [as in mythology]. Hindu I believe is the only globally recognized religion that recognizes goddesses. Ironically labeled as the oldest organized religion.
There are probably other "minor" religions with goddesses. But it seems goddesses are revered in those religions almost as much, if not equal to, their male counterparts. The Abrahamistic religions largely lack the same consideration or recognition.
Right. And unfortunately, it's still very prevalent in today's world view; the very reason I had to fight my way into male-dominated fields. It's disheartening to say the least.
There's a young woman here by the name of Veronica who is Wiccan. I hope she graces us with her presence on this article.
Then there's Raven Wing who I believe considers her Creator to be genderless. She has spoken about the matriarchial hierarchy in her family (tribe?)
I could be all wrong about these nice young women, but I hope they both get to see your article and make a comment or two.
I mean...I'm not wrong about them being nice...I mean their beliefs
Veronica said she's excited to read it too.
See, when I studied religion in its many forms, I felt more "at home" in earthly-based religions such as Wiccan, Pagan, non-denominational Creator / "Mother Earth" if you will. You're free to believe in Gods and Goddesses and even Jesus Christ and the Christian God if you feel as though it's right; however, it's more about equality and saving our resources, loving those around us, and as the Wiccan Rede states, "If it harms none, do as you will." It's not believing in stories once written by man and the belief that we'll burn in damnation for the appreciation of things we can see, feel, smell, and care for and our God(s) / Goddess(es) are personal relationships with the belief what we put out in the world will return to us, be it good, bad, or ugly. Karma, if you will, is a big part of it. I believe in reincarnation, but not everyone does and that's okay.
I've always believed in Mother Nature...as in watch what you do or Mother Nature will get you!
And just to piss some people off I like to refer to God as She. But I also stole that from "Dogma"
I love that movie. I believe that Kevin Smith was raised Catholic.
Thank you for that, although I now identify with the Crone (Badb) of the Triple Goddess.
I certainly wasn't going to call you an old lady...I would have gotten sent to the corner to spank myself again
You can call me crone, hag if you want - In my religion those are compliments - they mean Wise Old Woman. Of course some here may not get it - so I will take young lady....
back atcha...
I know those terms and they are complimentary terms. I got called a sea hag the other day. I laughed.
Sometimes all you can do is laugh.
In the United States "youthfulness" is generally held in high esteem. But in some Asian societies its the opposite. (Perhaps also many "indigenous" societies worldwide?)
The Chinese have a lot of respect for older people. (I think the idea is that older people have acquired wisdom over the years. While some younger people may have acquired some "knowledge"-- often they are lacking in "wisdom"-- the sort of thing that generally takes years of life experience to acquire.`
A while back I lived on a Yoga Ashram for a few months months. One building had many photos of famous Yoga Gurus. I asked someone how come they all seemed to have long white hair and long white beards. He replied that they do that partly to show that they are "older" people-- the implication being that through have lived long that have gained a lot of wisdom (yes, in that culture many considered it desirable to look old-- rather than being more desirable to look young as we do in the U.S.)
Definitely true of Hinduism.
I don't know if it would be called a globally recognized religion, but the very ancient Egyptian religion had both gods and goddesses.
(Incidentally, an interesting bit of trivia: that's related to why modern Egyptians never refer to the terror group "ISIS" as ISIS-- but insist of referring to them as "Daesh"!)
To the indigenous peoples of the Americas, elders are always held in high regard and with much respect. It is their wisdom that they pass to the younger generations that is critical.
As a young teen my grandfather told me about the Battle of Sugar Point, Leech Lake MN 1898 when the Pillager Band of Ojibwe defeated the U.S. 3rd Infantry in which he was a participant. To hear from a warrior that fought in the battle is an experience that cannot be matched. I passed that on to my son and daughter and they to their children and they to their children.
LOL, it's quite amusing to realize that I'm now, ''An Elder''...Where did the time go.
When my children were young, being a single Mother and running a business was a very busy time, so there not a lot of time to tell my children about the Cherokee heritage until they were older. By that time they were not really into that kind of history, so I wrote down all that I would tell them, chapter by chapter, and then copied them to CD's. Then I gave each one a copy of the CD's so that they could read them when they had time or wanted, and could also pass them on to their children. I also gave them each a written copy to save in case something happened to the CD's or they got lost.
Before my Son walked on he had said he was sad that he would not get to finish reading about his Cherokee heritage, so I told him he would learn about it from the Ancestors as he continued his eternal journey. That seemed to make him very happy.
Thank you Giggles.
There are several Native American Tribes that are a matriarchal hierarchy. The Cherokee is one of them. It is also a Tribe that forbids physical, verbal or mental abuse. And that goes both ways. Any abuse with a family, or of another Member of the Tribe is grounds for serious punishment, and then be driven out of the Tribe.
The woman is also head of the family. She calls all the shots and takes care of all family business. The main reason for that is that the men of the Tribe spend a good deal of time hunting, fishing, teaching the young boys, building homes and common buildings, and protecting their Tribe and people. There is much other they are required to do that also keeps them away from home a good deal. Thus, the women must take on full responsibility of their home, as well as helping with the necessities of the Tribe. And, women may also sit in the Tribal Council along with the men. They may also be Medicine Women and Shamans.
All property of the family belongs to the woman, including land, livestock, the home, etc. If a woman decides she does not want to be married to her husband anymore, she simply sets his belongings (i.e., clothing, shoes, regalia and any personal care items) outside the door of the home and the marriage is ended. Finis!
And the discarded husband must return to his primary Tribe. Marriage within Members of the same Tribe is not allowed, and when the woman takes a husband from another Tribe, the husband must join his Wife's Tribe.
All said and done, Cherokee women are very respectful to their husbands and takes very good care of them. The men also respect their wives, and they assist each other however they can.
The children are taught early on to respect the Elders of the Tribe, as well as their family. The Elders are the ones who provide the history of their Tribe and people. They provide guidance and help teach the children the rules and laws of their Tribe. "The Ancient Ones" are a very valuable treasure of the Tribe, and each has a role to play in the Tribe.
It is very rare that there is a divorce among the Tribe, as mutual respect, love, honor and consideration are all highly important, and leads to happy homes.
Now, as far as religion is concerned, the woman determines any religious activities and beliefs of the family. No one in the Tribe can interfere with any family's choice of religious activity, who or how they worship. The only time there is a formal participation is when there is a Sacred or Spiritual ceremony, or Tribal celebration.
That is to help maintain peace and Harmony within the Tribe. Harmony is an essential part of their survival.
Maybe the US could learn a thing or two?
I was taught to respect those that respect me and not just respect someone only because they're older. There's plenty of older people that don't deserve respect; however, I learned and my children are learning to respect elders. Give up your seat to someone older, pregnant, and in the case of my son, a woman. I teach them it's good to be polite and hold doors. I get compliments about them from everyone. They help the neighbors, whom are all in their 70's - 90's.
Sounds like my household.
That's something I hadn't known about! Thanks for sharing!
To me, this is how a marriage should be. My current marriage is that way, but my ex husband was mentally, emotionally, and verbally abusive; I wasn't about to let it get physical, which was probably the next step. His current wife [his 3rd marriage] is a wonderful woman that treats my daughter [daughter from that first marriage] wonderfully. While she is young, she is kind, respectful, collaborative, and communicates as necessary. She has no children of her own and my ex cannot have children anymore; she inherited a teenager, which is quite difficult. I told my daughter that she needs to consider her step mom as an ally and respect her as such, because she was thrown a teenage, hormonal girl... they're both learning how to interact with one another.
Thank you for sharing this information. It's appreciated!
Wow. That was really kind of you to tell your daughter that. I know how teenagers can be, I raised 2 of them. I think it's great that your ex's wife treats your daughter well. I guess you won't be calling Dr Laura.
Nope. No need to call Dr. Laura. I've been in a similar position to my daughter's stepmom; I was 19 and dating a 29 yr old divorcee that had a 6 yr old son. I had been friends with the family, but his ex wife was none to happy about him having such a young girlfriend. Sometimes the "boyfriend" would bark orders at his son without offering any kind of rationalization. I have always believed that children are people that learn by adults rationalizing actions and statements. Even with my kids... I give them a reason, because if they blindly follow orders, what kind of adult does that produce? Even at 19, I realized that my boyfriend's son deserved an explanation; so I would often tell the bf to leave the room so I could talk to his son like a human being. I heard many years later that their relationship was better because I taught the bf how to talk to his son. There was one time [and I still shake my head] that I was at the little boy's birthday party at his grandma's house [bf's mom]. Actually, I believe it was his 6th birthday. Well, I was sitting at the table with the bf's mom and two sisters who were saying rude things about the boy's mother [I wasn't find of her either, but none of my business other than how she treated her son]. I looked at them [keep in mind, I was only 19] and said, "You know, you guys shouldn't talk bad about a woman that helped create the child we're all here to celebrate. She's one of the reasons why we're all gathered today and that young boy loves his mother." They all turned red and apologized.
To me, it's common sense to be kind and involve each other. It makes it easier on the kids, that's for sure.
to tell my children about the Cherokee heritage
I think thsat is the role of the elders in many traditional societies. Indigenous peoples throughout the word-- and in the modern world groups that still stay in touch with their groups ancient teachings-- that evolved over many centuries!
Unfortunately in our modern world, many people have assimilated into modern society-- which in some cases may have some positives, but often much of the the ancient wisdom is thereby lost.
Also, BTW, with Jews who have held on to their ancient traditions (these developped over centuries-- in some cases younger folk don't understand their purpose-- but are told by their elders the importance of maintaining them--- like the song "Tradition" in Fiddler on The Roof)
Through our many conversations here and off site, Enoch and I have often had discussions where we shared the customs, traditions and history of between the Jewish and Native American people. There are some similarities between both sides.
Passing down the history of our people to the young is very important. We must never forget who we are as a people. And yes, it is the Elders who are the ones who pass down the Tribes history to the young. We must always remember our roots.
We may live in a modern world today, but, the values of our people must still be upheld.
You are very welcome. I am glad that I was able to share something new about the Cherokee with you. (smile)
I've traced some of my family's lineage to Ouendat [aka Wyandot / Wyandotte], but there's suspected informal adoptions from largely decimated nations into Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Ottawa in Canada and Michigan. Ironically, I always have been drawn to the city of Wyandotte, MI and have been living there for almost 20 years. I found out that my mom's side of the family has been here since 1701 when they traveled down the St. Lawrence into what's now known as the Detroit River and we never left. I have documentation of my mom's family living throughout present-day River Rouge, Ecorse, and Wyandotte. They were the "modern" ones of the time and got into owning their own businesses and eventually industrialization.
My dad's family stayed in the Upper Peninsula and northern Wisconsin with the exception of my grandfather and his offspring, which documentation shows Frenchmen coming from present-day Belgium and northern France to Canada, converting Native families to Christianity and marrying them. Then they moved into present-day UP of MI, Wisconsin, and some remained in Canada. They were fur traders and maple syrup farmers.
I wish there were verbal customs and traditions of the little bit of Native heritage that's there in my family; I've had to study and learn it on my own. I do however, love a little mixed-cultural traditions, at least when it comes to food.
When my husband and I went to New Orleans, LA last year, I fell in love with the food and started learning all I could and a lot of the influence is French, but much of it comes from Natives, African Americans and Haitians. Cajun, Creole, Metis... the mixed cultures are just as ingrained sometimes. I think I love the mixed culture because it shows that different cultures and belief can blend for a peaceful existence if people are willing to be open to it.
Religions are inherently mysoginistic. This, IMO, is due to two facts:
So yes I see a major correlation. Probably more in religions than in any other comparative area.
As I occasionally describe it, such misogyny along with other facets follows a Bronze Age mentality. And one, which unfortunately, persists in this day & age.
I think most are. (However there are "minor" religions world wide where that's not true-- in fact in some its the opposite). Of course these are the minority of religions-- often small tribes of indigenous peoples who for whatever reasons chose women as leaders..and put women in positions of power!)
Which to my mind raises an interesting question: Did the misogynism in the society follow the advent of a religion-- or were the characteristics of the religion (when invented) coloured by the values of the pre-existing society?
I am sure it pre-existed even society. Early human beings established control by physical force.
I am thinking that there are exceptions. I had learned about some very unusual small groups-- isolated from the modern world-- when I took some Anthropology courses in college. But again-- they are very small groups, and usually very isolated. (It was long ago that I took those courses so oft-hand I don't remember any examples).
Great article and well written! Well done, MsAubrey! I loved your anecdote about your aunt who never married but was never lonely. Good for her. Even today some people would brand her a you-know-what.
When I was a practicing Catholic, more women took on laity roles than the men did. We had a woman at church who ran religious education for both children and adults, was the parish secretary, was a Eucharistic minister and may other "jobs". I always said that if you wanted something done, get Anita to do it. But the men were the official "leaders" even tho the women did most of the work (sounds familiar, eh?).
I haven't felt discrimination as much as you even tho I have worked in traditionally male jobs. Women were starting to get footholds in the technical career fields in the Air Force when I joined so I wasn't relegated to admin or dining hall work. There was some resentment from some men when I got the awards or promotions they felt belonged to them, but for the most part I ignored them.
Your family HAS to be proud of what you accomplished.
I agree. Article voted up.
pssstttt......promote this article to the front page.....
Good idea, thanks
you're welcome
What's odd is that I went to school for aircraft maintenance and repair and then later BBA in Operations Management, but the company I work for, I started as Software Process Quality and Engineering Project Quality, and now I'm in the IT dept. I only got the current role because I took it upon myself to learn and understand the computer tools we were using and was noticed by the IT management. None of the things I've done for this company have anything at all to do with what I went to school for, but I had to have a degree to be hired.
I had to spend $55,000 [just for the BBA] to make $65,000 / year. The majority of upper management are middle-aged white males. However, there's a couple of women in upper management in Sweden and one in Germany. Most women get to middle-management and that's it. Although, I don't know that I'd want that much responsibility or headache, so maybe some positions are intelligently turned down by women too. 
It's probably because they don't want to deal with children because they have children at home
Exactly
I think that's true of Scandinavian countries in general (although apparently Sweden takes the lead).
Very possible. I only know the two I mentioned because of the company I work for, which began in Sweden in the 50's.
I don't remember all the details, but some of those countries are world leaders not only in equality for women but in other areas as well. For example, some of them have very evolved prison systems that are not aimed as punishment but rather very much designed at rehabilitation of inmates!
My experience has been than generally speaking, women tend to be more "spiritual" than men. (Of course there are exceptions).
Most women generally tend to be more "right brain dominant" than men.
(BTW those traits formerly associated with either "left brain dominance" or "right brain dominance" are mainly no longer assibned to one half of the brain.)
And of course there's controversy as to this: if certain traits seem to be stronger in one sex or the other-- is that biologically determined-- or is it learned?
("nature" vs "nurture")
AW! Thanks you two! I feel so special!
Thats because you are special
Stopping by to express my appreciation for this article. I was raised Baptist, and yes, women were considered to be subservient to men.
My grandmother and my oldest maternal aunt were forced to drop out of school in the 8th grade to help raise their younger siblings. This left them vulnerable to unhappy (and in my grandma's case, abusive) marriages. Grandma escaped, with her parents' help. My aunt was married to her philandering, financially abusive husband until his death. She did, however, get her GED and attended a local community college when she was in her late 60s-early 70s, so she overcame her lack of education.
So, you've witnessed it first hand too. Thanks for sharing!
In the Midewiwin beliefs (Ojibwe) Kitchi Manitou, (The Great Mystery) does not have a gender, color, or race. It is simply the Great Mystery. We do not think that we have to define the Great Mystery any further. We do not have paintings, statues, or any form of identification since it is not for us to try to put a ''face'' to the Great Mystery.
Within our belief system is the Mide who is a member of the ''Grand Medicine Society'' that is well over 1,500 years old. A Mide must complete roughly 20 years of learning to reach the highest level. It is very important to us that the Mide addresses both our physical well being and our spiritual well being. There is no gender that is dominant, there are both male and female Mides.
The Mides are the keepers of the Sacred Scrolls which are written on birch bark and date back well over 1,500 years old. The scrolls define our language, history, and all events that have a profound impact on the Ojibwe people. Our ceremonies are not seen by anyone outside of the Ojibwe people and some are only seen by the Mide themselves.
As one of the three tribes that make up the ''Three Fire Nation''. Ojibwe, Keepers of the Sacred Scrolls. Odawa (Ottowa) The Trader People and Potawatomi, Keepers of the Sacred Fire, all recognize and practice the Midewiwin way of life.
Love it Kav. Thanks for sharing!
Your welcome.
I suppose that the multiple genders and two-spirit people of the Ojibwe would really melt some heads...LOL
There are those in the Cherokee Tribe as well.
I was raised Catholic. I even taught "Sunday School". I grew to question it all as I grew older and kept seeing the wicked prosper and the faithful fall by the wayside. I was always drawn to Mary more than to Jesus because as a mother I could not imagine witnessing what she did (according to the Bible). As I was smacked down by the priest of our parish I began to question more. When my family moved out of rural NY to Rochester, NY I fell further from the faith. I started to explore spirituality rather than "religion". I found myself drawn to my roots - to the Celts. I began researching and I learned that my paternal grandmother was a seer - as was my father. My maternal grandmother rabid Catholic also had some of the "magical" juice in her, which skipped my mother and landed on me. I spent years trying to figure out where I fit in - my sister told me stories of when I was young and how my parents called me strange because I would talk to things not seen, to the animals & how I would feel the pain of others.
I delved deeper in to the art of Wicca. I loved the devotion to Mother Earth and the caring for all creations. I began focusing on it. Learned all the Sabbats, cooked all the foods for the feasts and even tried rituals. However, I felt something missing. I joined a "Meetup" for Pagans and enjoyed some company (took my son as well - he is Pagan, but nothing specific like Wicca - he adheres to more Druid tradition). I went and talked of different practices and was even invited into a coven. I did not join as I have figured out that I am best as a Solitary witch.
Let me tell you that even in Wicca there is gender bias & it goes against the males. When I was invited into the coven I discovered that it was strictly women & men were looked down upon. I don't go for that. I left the "meetup" itself because it became a Christian hit group. When the original "meetup" leader left it went from being discussing our beliefs to Christian bashing. I have a Catholic daughter and IF I want to celebrate Christmas with and for her I will. I was told at my last attended meeting I was being "a bad witch", so I never went back.
So even after deciding to follow Wiccan practices I still felt out there - I went to a Psychic Fair and for shits and giggles sat with a medium (we still talk to this day). She told me I needed to find a direction in my faith - she told me I was an empath and a healer. Now I will say that I did not tell her anything about me. She asked if I had any questions and I said no, just read me. BTW - she is Christian. She told me I had 3 children & I said no, just two - and she said "Josh keeps saying you have three even if he is not on earth." I was floored - I had a miscarriage between the birth of my daughter & son & the name picked was Joshua. Enough about that...
So how I found the Morrigan - my direction in my "faith". The Morrigan is a Triple Goddess (maiden, mother & crone). I should say She found me. After speaking with the medium I went book hunting to find direction (that is how I do it - I find books to figure things out. I admit there are ALOT Gods and Goddesses out there to choice from. I found this book on the Morrigan - was looking at it - put it back on the shelve - walked around some more - went back to the vendor, picked up the same book & was reading the back when the vendor came up & said "Unless she picks you - you'd best leave her alone - she can be ruthless" . I put the book back & looked at some others. I wandered away & made my way back and the book fell off the shelve and hit me in the back. The vendor was laughing from where he was sitting three feet away & said "I guess she chose you." I bought the book, devoured it & have been working with her since. It has been 10 years.
This is probably way over board - but I wanted to show that even Witches can be biased against others - it isn't so much the religion as it is the people within the religion.
I have noticed that as well. It's sad... why can't we just all be and let it alone at that?
So not overboard! And I understand that; people skew things to be in a place of self-prescribed power. Ego, money, and power are what causes people to be nasty. I got the chills when you were talking about how the book fell and she chose you. I had a similar experience with my tarot deck.
I think if people just practiced their faith on their own maybe there wouldn't be all this bias and prejudice.
Maybe.
Practicing ones religion away from others is just being considerate of others. There's no need to be in other people's faces about it.
Nothing to worry about then since the government isn't doing anything. But consideration of others isn't a good reason?
Oh, so black lives doesn't matter to you? Interesting. but also a strawman.
Maybe. Maybe not. But it does seem to make some sens now that the number of new Coronavirus cases is going through the roof in this country!
That was my thought exactly!
Usually when a novice starts to do Tarot readings, and when shuffling a card falls out of the deck-- they put it back in the deck, ignore it, and continue shuffling.
Of course experienced tarot readers know that these things happen for a reason-- so they use the card in the reading-- in fact assign it extra weight!
Just as in most jurisdictions in this country there's no law requiring the wearing if masks, or social distancing . . . during a pandemic.
(And the results are obvious
But that's a bit off topic . . .
I'm not asking for anyone to hide it; I'd like people to not fight about it.
You can wish in one hand and shit in the other to see which one fills up first.
Same here!
Are channeling the ghost of my father? He used to say that all the time! LOL!
My grandfather used to say it. That's where I got it from.
That's funny you mention Tarot up here, because I mentioned it further down.
Even this novice knows that when a card falls out of the deck while shuffling, it's with "purpose" and requires thorough scrutiny.
Sounds good to me. Partly kidding... too many people are doing things that have nothing to do with the movement, but state that it is. I think variety is the best. Just don't beat people, or murder kids, or burn buildings, etc... and say it's for BLM. Sorry... that shit don't fly with me.
BLM isn't a religion!
(Its a political movement aimed at making some changes in society. As with any movement attempting to change society-- by its very nature it must be public-- very public!)
But that's a poor comparison-- because its not a religion....!!!
I'll be back tomorrow to further talk about the things that my Catholic grandmother experienced and how I believe she had magical powers, but denied them because of her learned faith.
Actually we all have those powers-- or perhaps more accurately-- we all have them and the potential to use them. But from early child there are those with a vested interest in making us belief they aren't real!
Usually its the Church (in just about any religion)...after all, if you knew you had those powers you wouldn't need to rely on The Church-- and they'd be out of a job!
Other times its just your parents and immediate family-- they have been brainwashed by society into not believing in magickal powers and other mystic experiences-- so its threatening to their belief system when others challenge it....
That being said-- some folks are just naturally gifted and have those powers naturally developed early on in life.
But everyone has the ability to learn how to develop them!
True, but I believe some more naturally than others.
That's an excellent point! In any belief system-- be it organized religion. "alternative religions", or even Atheism-- there can be fanatical nutcases who while claiming to be true believers, entirely miss the point.
And there are some folks who have a tendency to pick out one particular deviate and then use them to "paint the entire belief system with a broad brush"...
For those unfamiliar with the term "Medium"...here's a brief explanation of that and various other terms (if someone can offer a better explanation-- by all means do so
For those that study these phenomena, there are several terms frequently used re: psychic abilities:
-Psychic abilities-- I think of it as a way of knowing from a dimension of consciousness other than your ordinary waking consciousness. Another way to say it-- when you know something but you don't know how you know.
Yes, many psychic are charlatans. But the genuine ones generally give you a session in which they tell you things, and answer your questions, using their psychic abilities.
-"Mediumship": A bit similar to Psychic phenomena. But in this case the reader doesn't just "tune in" to info that's "out there somewhere" like a regular psychic does. Rather, they attract spirits (Of deceased beings) and communicate with them. (When a medium holds a session for several people at once, the terms used by the Muggles is "a seance").
I realize most people don't believe in any of this stuff-- which is fine with me!
--Precognition: Usually psychic input is in the present. However when predicting the future is called "precognition".
--Tarot cards, "Angel cards", Runes, Pendulums, (yes-- even crystal balls!), Palm-reading, some forms of Astrology etc. are various methods some Psychics may use to assist them-- although often psychics don't use any of these. None is better than any other! (The power lies in the psychic-- not in any paraphrenalia they like to employ).
Thank you for the added information. Your explanations were spot on & brief. When I explain things to people I tend to get bogged down trying to impart as much information as I can. In other words - I drone on & on & on & on - you get the picture.
I've had precognitive visions. Sometimes they worry me.
My daughter has most definitely had her psychic moments! The day I found out I was pregnant with my son [my daughter only 4 at the time], she pointed at my belly and said, "There's a baby in there mom." I was a mere 4 weeks along and took a test that day with my current husband at his house, so the discarded test wasn't even at my house! I hadn't told anyone yet and neither had my husband [long story short, I wasn't divorced from my first husband yet, but legally separated and it was just my daughter and I living here], so I had to lie... even though I'm sure she knew better but she had no idea why she knew.That was my daughter's first psychic moment. My son has had moments on occasion too, but it's rarer.
I think my grandmother denied her natural gift because of her Catholic upbringing.
I don't think anyone in my family has had the medium gift; although, I believe my daughter may be a sensitive.
As I mentioned, I believe every human being has the potential to be psychic. And improving that ability can be learned. (Actually a good part of learning is mainly learning to overcome the "brain-washing" we all from receive from society-- aimed at convincing us those abilities are not real).
And while everyone has that potential, for whatever reason some individuals are born with that gift. (Like any of the"regular" 5 senses. Some people are born with one or more senses more highly developped than most other people-- well, the same is true of the so-called "Extra-Sensory Perception").
I'm not sure about mediumship abilities-- but I imagine itts similar (perhaps a bit rarer than Psi ability-- but some are definitely born with it. And its can be learned)
I went to a Psychic Fair and for shits and giggles sat with a medium (we still talk to this day).
Incidentally, there is a very famous school for mediumship in the U.K. (Originally I had thought it was for various forms of psychic work, but found out it was only for mediumship.). I was think of going there to take classes, but as I was beginning to look into it the Covad virus hit-- so I put it off.
Now their classes are online, but hopefully within a few months they will have live classes again.
I mentioned it to a friend of mine who is a natural psychic (Sun and Moon conjunct in Pisces) and forgot our conversation.
We talked about a month later-- she had called them and had a mediumship reading (over Zoom) with one of their teachers! She was blown away-- she said the reading (only 1/2) was life-changing! Also it was surprisingly inexpensive.
A while back I seeded something on NT about the school-- if anyone is interested in learning more its here: The Arthur Findlay College - A "Hogwarts For Adults"?
She told me I needed to find a direction in my faith - she told me I was an empath and a healer.
BTW, for those unfamilar with the term "empath": there are several different types of psychics. Most psychics "read from the Heart Chakra or the Third Eye Chakra". However, some are "empaths"-- I believe they read from the 2nd Chakra? In any event, "Empaths" often get psychic information by actually feeling it in their body.
("medical Intuitives" are empaths. If they are in a room with a sick person-- for example someone with a backache-- of "empaths" will know it because they themselves actually feel a pain in their back!)
Yes, I believe my daughter and I both are empaths. I've walked right out of a house because of an icky feeling. My daughter has asked me, "Mom, have you ever been somewhere and even though you were with friends or family, just got a bad feeling and felt like you just needed to leave"? I said, "Yep." I think that's why I loathe crowds; people that give off bad energy make me uncomfortable like I wanna jump out of my skin. I caught my daughter feeling the same way in a crowd before.
A friend of mine is like that. She used to live up in NY City. Once in a conversation she told me that when she lived there and wanted to go somewhere, she would walk-- or take a bus. But never, ever, a subway!
Her reason? There were too many "negative vibes" (dirt, etc) in the subway-- it was too upsetting for her so she avoided subways completely!
BTW there are techniques empaths can use. A common one is visualizizing being surrounded by a protective ball of white light. Another is having the intention, and visualizing, shutting down your 2nd Chakra, because IIRC that's the one where Empaths "resonate" with strong external energies). And of course "setting your intention..".
OTOH, sometimes you might not want to shut the feelings down as they are a protective measure-- a warning of danger...
Yes, the crowded places we're usually in are in Detroit and I prefer to have those inner danger warnings.
Thanks for that link - I was going to check it out & lost the link. I am thinking I may have gotten the first link from your seed.
I have noticed that sometimes when I copy and paste a url from a seed (thinking it is a link to the beginning of the seeded article) it is often a link to the correct seed-- but rather than going to the beginning of the article it goes to one of the comments.
Its the right seed, but the link goes to a commnet.
Which isn't a problem-- just click on the link, then scroll up to the top of the page!
If your URL ends in '#cm9999999' (where each 9 represents some digit) then what you are copying is a bookmark to a specific comment. Every browser will use the URL to position to the article and then search for a bookmark matching what follows after the '#' sign.
You can always delete the portion of your URL starting with '#'.
Thanks.
Actually I knew that-- but sometimes I forget to check a link after I post it.