Biden's Document Blunder Is Nothing Like Trump's Crime
By: Jonathan Chait (Intelligencer)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The sweet spot for Donald Trump's allies has always been when they can justify his abuses and crimes through misdirected comparisons rather than direct defense. Did Trump extort Ukraine into smearing his opponent? Well, Ted Kennedy once did something kind of like this. Did Trump try to stay in office after losing the election? Maybe so, but let us tell you about the time a Democrat registered an objection to the Electoral College count in Congress.
The key aspect of these arguments is exaggeration, not fabrication. They seize on real events, often genuinely bad things done by other politicians, then use them as pretext to dismiss actions by Trump of a vastly greater order of magnitude.
As many people have very neutrally pointed out, the news that President Biden held on to classified documents is pure manna for Trump's defenders. It gives them a set of facts to work with that, if examined without any of the important context, can be spun to the willfully credulous as evidence that these men have committed similar crimes.
"There's no good case for putting a President in prison — much less making two Presidents into cellmates — for improperly retaining materials from recent public office," intonesThe Wall StreetJournal. "When Mr. Trump was out on a limb by himself, this point was less obvious to some of our media competitors. Now that Mr. Biden faces a similar inquiry, perhaps they see how ridiculous it is."
But Trump is not potentially facing charges because he improperly took classified documents. It's because when the government found out about the documents, he refused to give them back and — allegedly — took steps to hide them from the FBI. This is not a small twist on the same crime. It is the crime.
You might say, in Trump's defense, that he had no underlying motive to hold on to the documents — that is, they didn't contain any national-security secrets he planned to sell or incriminating information he wished to hoard. That is probably true. The motive instead seems to be that Trump does not believe the law applies to him.
This is how he has operated for his entire career. He cheats, lies, and steals in the expectation that he can brazen out any consequences. He can simply refuse to let Black people rent an apartment or pay contractors what he promised them or lie to his lenders about his worth, and whatever cost he faces will be worth it. The reason his document theft rose to the level of a federal crime was that he applied this method to behavior that is covered by the federal criminal code and handled by prosecutors he can't necessarily bully or bribe into submission.
When Trump's allies moan about his supposedly unfair treatment, the distinction is hiding in plain sight of their complaints. "Where's the raid? Where's the pictures of the classified documents? Where's the special counsel?" demands Jim Jordan.
"Why hasn't the FBI raided Joe Biden's home?" asks Dan Crenshaw.
The obvious answer is that Biden didn't refuse to give back the documents. Indeed, his lawyers volunteered that they had the documents and turned them over immediately. There was nothing to raid.
If Trump's lawyers had informed the National Archives that he'd mistakenly taken classified documents, or even if they had responded to requests from the archives by turning them over, the FBI never would have been involved. The documents themselves would never have become a criminal matter if Trump had complied with the law. It became one because he flagrantly refused to follow the law, which happened because Trump is a criminal.
The whole thrust of Trumpist propaganda has been to act as though normal politicians making normal blunders are criminals in order to justify handing the presidency to a lifelong crook. Trump is not a smart man but shrewd enough to comprehend that his party is fully invested in a narrative of Democratic evil that compels them to deem anything he's done, however wrong or illegal, as no different than the actions of any other powerful man. If Trump shot somebody on Fifth Avenue, Republicans would just start talking about Dick Cheney's hunting accident.
Great article, 100% correct.
How can the two classified document cases be the same when Biden seems embarrassed and his staff returned the documents willingly, and Trump claimed the documents belonged to him?
The difference would be obvious to Stevie Wonder, but , as always, it benefits the right to play dumb.
They're not playing, they're fucking morons.
At this point, what difference does it make? Neither one will go to jail and all the faux outrage will evaporate, like a morning fog.
Let us not forget that the powers that be were aware that Trump had the documents in a secure area, and that the highly publicized raid was a political hit job to harass and embarrass him.
Why is KJP doing a cover up of Biden's "mistake", and why would a VP have access to and a need to possess classified documents?
Neither will go to jail (the PRA has no criminal charges). And given the optics, Trump will almost certainly not have any concern for indictment under the Espionage Act.
The outrage, however, should not be "faux". Every responsible individual should be concerned about our national security given what we have learned regarding the sloppy, insecure handling of classified information.
Now that is some mighty fine spin. NARA, et. al. were treating Trump with kid gloves for months while trying to get these documents back. The raid was a result of Trump's lack of cooperation. Why do you continue to defend Trump??
You are kidding, right?
I think the best thing to come out of this is that it should definitely cloud and impede any chance either one of them have for 24. For myself I don't want to see either of them getting the nomination, but I think that impacts the Democrats more as they really don't have anybody in wings ready to step in. Several retreads, but do they really want to continue down the road with the older people? We need new blood, not the same old tired establishment types.
Hopefully on both counts. But Trump always is a spoiler threat for the GoP. As long as he remains viable (due to people supporting / defending him), he is an albatross around the neck of the GoP.
You might say, in Trump's defense, that he had no underlying motive to hold on to the documents — that is, they didn't contain any national-security secrets he planned to sell or incriminating information he wished to hoard. That is probably true.
While I agree with the premise of the article, fully, I find this statement curious. They are top secret documents, thus they are inherently too unknowable to make this statement. It would be completely foolish for anyone to defend Trump with this line of reasoning. Most people with half a brain see that defending any Donald Trump’s actions ever is foolish on any level, but this level of defense wouldn’t even fit within the basic parameters of a defense. As far as the rest of the article goes, it is yet another synopsis of everything the right stands for anymore, which can be summed up in one word - whataboutism. Whataboutism as gaslighting are the only fuel for Newstalkers existence anymore.
What sources or links can substantiate that the Trump documents were indeed "top secret"?
Wow. That’s right up there with “prove that the Loch Ness Monster doesn’t exist.”
It is kind of funny how the number has changed over time. Here's an article from a week after the Mar-a-Lago raid that talks about the FBI seizing 11 sets of documents and over time the number has grown into hundreds. Now I don't know if they changed from sets of documents to individual pages or what as that's never really been clearly explained that I can find.
As far as the documents from Biden, I don't know that we've ever seen a breakdown of classification levels for the various documents that have been found.
However it can be noted that the documents that Biden had were at greater risk. In the case of Trump, they were in a locked closet that the FBI had previously approved and Mar-a-Lago had security cameras, locked gates and Secret Service agents 24/7. Biden did not have any of that in Delaware and the house in Delaware was vacant a lot as Biden is known to travel a lot.
Knowing that I'm going to be lambasted for this statement by the expected, still gonna put it out there.
Both Biden and Trump are guilty of the same infraction. The act of taking classified documents. While there is a lot of latitude given to ex presidents and ex vice presidents with regards to classified documents, IMO they should not be taking them out of office. They are seldom prosecuted for such actions however. Yes, there are huge differences between how each party acted after the fact and that is where a lot of focus will be. But the simple fact is that both took classified documents.
IMO neither one should be eligible to run for re-election in 24 as both have this hanging over their heads. And IMO it impacts the Democrats more as they really don't have any up-and-coming talents.
Biden claims that he did not know that he had classified documents. If he is being truthful then of course he would not have the boxes containing the documents secured.
Trump did know he had classified documents.
Which means nothing when examining which sets of documents were at greater risk of disclosure.
Did you get my point?
My point was that it makes sense that Biden's documents were not secured if it is the truth that Biden did not know he had classified documents.
It's obvious you didn't get my point, unless you can show me in the PRA where ignorance is an excuse. It's obvious that the documents that Biden had were at greater risk of disclosure. Are you really trying to defend ignorance as an excuse?
How do you get that from what I wrote?? My point was that ignorance of classified documents correlates LOGICALLY with the boxes contained the docs to not be in a secure facility. This is obvious.
Well of course, Snuffy, it is obvious that a non-secured document is less-secure than a secured document.
Per your comment @2.1.2:
My reply @2.1.3 was that it makes perfectly good sense that Biden did not have "any of that" because, if he is being honest, he did not know he had any classified docs and thus there is no reason to have "any of that":
Your entire thread is using Biden's ignorance as an excuse. Too fucking bad, ignorance is not an excuse for a professional politician who has been in office for as many years as Biden has. Had they only found documents in one place then his excuse may be a little more understandable but not when they have found documents in 3 separate places.
That's an assumption on your part if you want to believe it. If you want to excuse Biden's fuck up then it's easier if you believe what he is saying rather than wait for actual evidence.
Wrong. Biden's ignorance is NOT an excuse for his failure. He is accountable for these documents and his violation of the PRA regardless of his knowledge.
I have stated this from day one and repeatedly.
Another example of ignoring what is written and just presenting strawman arguments. In this case your strawman is that I have claimed that Biden's ignorance means he is not accountable. That is a blatant lie and is evidenced repeatedly by what I have written.
Be honest.
Biden is accountable for violating the PRA. The buck stops with him. There is no excuse for him having classified documents at his home, etc.
Now try to remember that very clear statement from me.
Also:
Biden's ignorance goes to intent. It does not excuse him from the PRA, but if his ignorance is accepted as truth then that would make it far less likely that the Espionage Act would apply. Further, Biden's ignorance is consistent with these documents not being secured. If he truly did not know then of course he would not take steps to secure the documents.
And that's where you are wrong. I didn't say that Biden's ignorance is an excuse, I said you are using his ignorance as an excuse. And as usual, you continue to twist and spin to try to get your point across. Nowhere did I talk about intent, or punishment. If you go back to my original post..
Now what was I talking about in there? Explained to Greg that there were some documents marked as TS taken from Mar-a-Lago but we as of yet have no breakdown of the classification levels of the documents taken there. I stated that both had taken classified documents and while there is a lot of latitude given in cases like this (in the case of ex presidents and ex vice presidents) they should not have them and this should/will impact their plans for 24.
But right fucking there, I explained that Biden's documents were at greater risk for exposure. Again that has nothing to do with intent. So stop spinning to try to defend Biden and just fucking respond to what I posted. If you cannot do that then perhaps you should stop responding to me.
In fact i think I'll do just that. You can have the last fucking word, I no longer care. spin away...
And I responded to that. Quit playing your faux obtuseness game.
Do you not comprehend that I have stated the exact same thing?
And where do you find me disagreeing with the obvious fact that non-secured documents are at a greater risk than secured documents? You clearly fail to read what I write or simply ignore what I write and declare whatever strawman you wish. That is intellectual dishonesty.
Who equated storage of documents with intent? I related intent with knowledge. Again, either you cannot comprehend what I write or are not reading it.
Please do. I have no desire to deal with such blatant intellectual dishonesty.
And this right there is why no one likes to engage with you.
To you, Having a different opinion equates to intellectual dishonestly.
Narcissism is not a good look.
That is bullshit.
You too did not even read what I wrote.
Disagreement is not intellectual dishonesty. Strawman arguments and false claims are intellectual dishonesty.
My reply focused on stating what I actually did write and countering that which is falsely attributed to me.
Nope...I stand by what I posted.
Oh, you "stand by" your post? Well that makes all the difference now.
I do and it should.
It normally shows how correct I am. That's why I ALWAYS stand by my comments.
It is a bad practice to stand by comments that are demonstrably false.
Not only is there no excuse for Biden to have had said documents in his possession, but he had them for 6+ years dating back to his vice presidential days. That is really telling. I don't think he can really in all honesty say he did not know he had them.
You do not think it plausible that he had boxes in storage that he did not open from when he was V.P.?
I have a few boxes (papers/books) stored that I have not opened from when we moved 18 years ago. They might have been boxed from the move prior to that and just "moved along" and re-stored. I easily see how this could occur.
I do not know if Biden is lying, but 6+ year old storage boxes do not strike me as some smoking gun.
Biden can’t be defended so deflect to trump. I guess corvette security doesn’t pass muster.
such an obvious deflection.
Your entire argument on Newstalkers has become whataboutism. Its unfortunate.
Why are you defending Biden? Isn't that a prime example of whataboutism?
The "whataboutism" is the claim that the two cases are comparable.
Normal people would say that the two cases are pretty much equivalent.
But this latest Biden blunder, alongside his ever growing list of bad press, pretty much removes him from being a viable contender in 2024
Normal people would say that the two cases are pretty much equivalent.
Whataboutism meets gaslighting.
Gaslighting, how so?
Yet you are always the one who defends Biden by going …but trump.
why can’t you discuss Biden mishandling top secret information without pointing at trump?
I dont have any problem with Biden getting whatever's coming to him for mishandling classified documents. The problem is the claim this gets Trump off the hook for something that is clearly worse. Trump admits that he believes the documents belong to him even though no one in the government agrees with him.
But I have never thought the Marlago document case was Trumps most egregious "crimes". He did far worse than that with his attempts to steal the election, and with his trying to bribe/extort Ukraine in 2019.
Hillary's behavior was worse than Trumps. The Hillary standard already pretty much ensured Trump wasn't getting in trouble for mishandling documents.
As I've stated elsewhere, the act of holding classified documents out of office is the same for both of them. The after actions seem to be different but we only hear that Biden is cooperating thru the mainstream media so we have to accept that with a grain of salt. We hear about Trump from himself.
In what world are the two cases equivalent? Prefacing it with “normal people” and “pretty much” makes it gaslighting, as if it’s sooo obviously equivalent when there is no equivalency at all.
I'm sorry that you feel emotionally abused.
It is abusive to refuse to give back things you admit to stealing and claiming ownership of. Maybe that’s the type of person you are, so you just can’t comprehend the difference.
Nope, not equivalent at all no matter how much in denial you are.
The two primary differences are scale and attempted obstruction of justice.
"He did far worse than that with his attempts to steal the election, and with his trying to bribe/extort Ukraine in 2019"
Didn't Biden threaten/influence Ukraine on behalf of his son Hunter
Nope. You believe discredited conspiracy theories.
Where the hell did you pull that from?
Naïve or willfully ignorant people certainly might do that.
There are some differences, such as...
Trump had the authority to declassify the documents he had. Whether he actually did that is something that should be taken up separately.
Biden did not have that authority, so essentially, Biden stole classified documents.
Trump kept his documents in an actual locked room at Mar a Largo, with the approval of the FBI.
Biden had his documents in several unsecure locations in two different states (that we know of now). One of those locations was his library in his home. How did those few documents make it there? Did he go to the unsecure garage and pull them from the boxes stacked there or did an aide bring them to him from the same boxes or from other means? Either way, he knew he had classified documents as they were within arms reach in his personal library.
Trump had his documents stored for about a year before the FBI raided his home.
Biden had his documents for around 6 years and would still be there unknown had CBS not broke the story. Also, we would not have known they were found in November, but not disclosed until 2 months after the mid terms again, not for the same story breaking....in other words...hiding this information from Americans.
In 2018, Biden said on a 60 minute interview that he no longer had access to classified information.
He lied.
Trump knew he had classified documents. Biden says he did not know (and it is possible that this is true).
If Biden did not know he had classified documents, it makes perfect sense that he would not have them secured. Not knowing and not secured go hand in hand, logically.
Good question on how ANY classified documents get out of the control of the various agents in government who are charged with protecting them.
And Trump clearly did NOT cooperate with the safe return of the documents whereas Biden is not only cooperating but his staff found them and is proactively looking to find more and turn them over to a secure facility.
Does it cross your mind that he might have honestly believed he had no classified documents? He might be lying. He might also be telling the truth. Why do you presume 100% that he is lying? I do not presume 100% that he is telling the truth but thus far I have no evidence that suggests he is lying. Do you?
Because the 2018 interview (2 years after he was no longer VP), he said he did not have access to classified info. He had all of those documents for the entirety of those 2 years, including his personal office at Penn and quite possibly in his garage or library even in 2018.
He knew.
It does seem plausible that he would not know what he had access to, since he doesn't have a clue about much of anything.
However, if his handlers did not want him to know he had classified info at places he frequented, they would have put them somewhere that even his bumbLing ass would not have stumbled on them.
Being found in his library shows he at least stumbled upon them.
How does that mean that he knew?? A 2018 interview where he states that he has no access to classified info is absolutely consistent with him not knowing that he had classified documents. If he did not know, he of course would say he did not have access.
If he is lying, then sure, that is on him. I consider the possibility that he is lying. Do you consider the possibility that he is NOT and that he genuinely was not aware that he had classified documents?
Nope...two reasons...
1. He personally used his offices at Penn where the first batch were found in a closet. He knew they were there.
2. He has frequented his home in Delaware many times where more documents were found in his garage. He knew they were there.
Why are you so ardently defending Biden. You may say you aren't, but go straight to hypothetical scenarios that are not plausible, trying hard to make it look like Biden knew nothing of these documents in his possession.
Bottom line....and no argument ....he knew.
Again, how does the fact that he used his office mean that he knew the classified documents were there? How do you connect those dots?
Yet again. How does being at his home mean that he knew classified docs were in his garage.
You connect dots with great leaps.
I am rebutting illogical claims. What you have argued is illogical. You leap to conclusions with a wide open gap of connecting logic.
I have stated from day one that Biden screwed up and he is accountable.
I have never stated that I know he is telling the truth. The best I have done is suggest that the circumstances (the fact that his staff found these documents, they immediately secured them and started looking for more) suggests the opposite of a cover-up ... the opposite of excuse making. Comparing Biden's behavior with Trump I am more inclined to consider Biden is being truthful whereas Trump clearly was not. But I have never claimed Biden is telling the truth because I do not know either way.
Why would you think Biden does not know what confidential markings look like?
I know you were being sarcastic, but it just illustrates a lack of objectivity. If a classified document is in a pile of documents, the only way Biden (or anyone else) would recognize those markings is if they searched through the pile (which is exactly what happened).
Nor did they walk themselves into his personal library in his home.
Are there things in your home that you know nothing about? My guess is no. Your defense of Biden is getting deafening and are going to great lengths to do so.
"I am rebutting illogical claims. What you have argued is illogical. You leap to conclusions with a wide open gap of connecting logic."
Just because you do not understand logic does not make one's posting illogical. I have tried to explain it to you but you have failed to comprehend.
" have never stated that I know he is telling the truth. The best I have done is suggest that the circumstances (the fact that his staff found these documents, they immediately secured them and started looking for more) suggests the opposite of a cover-up ... the opposite of excuse making. Comparing Biden's behavior with Trump I am more inclined to consider Biden is being truthful whereas Trump clearly was not. But I have never claimed Biden is telling the truth because I do not know either way."
In other words, you are defending Biden
Why?
Absolutely. I do not know all the stuff brought in by my wife and sons.
And if I were a public official and staff brought boxes into my home, unless I went through the boxes, I would not know everything inside.
Is this not obvious??
You are just playing a pathetic game. When I repeatedly state that Biden is accountable for his violation of the PRA, that is stating his wrongdoing flat out.
I have made this statement from day one.
It is pathetic (desperate?) for you to take my repeated allegation of wrongdoing and accountability and spin that into 'defending Biden'.
Be honest.
How do you know it was staff that brought those boxes with classified info in them into his garage, then moved several of those pages into his personal library.
You don't. You are defending Biden by blaming it on staff.
"It is pathetic (desperate?) for you to take my repeated allegation of wrongdoing and accountability and spin that into 'defending Biden'."
Hmmm...very similar to someone that incessantly asked posters over and over and over and over and over and over...etc....the same exact question concerning a perceived Trump "big lie" question.....no matter how many times posters answered that same questions, then claim those posters are "defending Trump"
Wonder who that poster is?.
I do not know. But I think it is reasonable to assume that boxes of documents were handled by staff and not personally by Biden physically packing and transporting documents.
How about you? Do you think the V.P. physically packs and moves all of his material?
How utterly pathetic that you feel the need to make such a ridiculous claim. I have stated repeatedly from day one that the buck stops with Biden and that he is accountable. You pretend as though you never read that from me.
This is the crap I see routinely from a certain set of individuals. Nothing but bullshit. Ridiculous unsupported claims, leaps of logic and endless intellectual dishonesty. Have you no shame?
But you made the assumption anyway.
A blatant spin to defend Biden from his incompetence.
My claim is right on the money. Not my fault you don't like it.
Then I recommend you take a look at that hand you are pointing with and see which way three of those fingers are pointing.
Maybe a good inner probe of self awareness is appropriate for you to look into.
You have a problem with making basic commonsense assumptions?? Do you wait until every little nuance of a situation is proven correct in a court of law before opining?
You object to the assumption that the V.P. of the United States likely had staff packing and moving his materials at the end of his term??
And yet again you prove that you are just spouting bullshit. You ignore (yet again) what was just written:
Pathetic. Who do you think is stupid enough to buy your bullshit?
I do when the person I am engaging with assumes that every opinion from someone else is "intellectual dishonesty", or just simply "bullshit"
. "I have stated repeatedly from day one that the buck stops with Biden and that he is accountable"
But you continue to defend him by trying to minimize what he has done compared to what you perceive Trump has done,.
THAT, is intellectual dishonesty.
You just make up shit in lieu of the ability to put forth a cogent argument.
It is pathetic.
I am not defending Biden, I am countering the bullshit defense of Trump. A group here has taken the tact of trying to equate Trump's situation with Biden's. That is defense of Trump. Countering that nonsense is defending truth.
It should register with you that if someone states that Biden is at fault and accountable for violating the PRA that this is NOT defending him but rather assigning appropriate blame to him.
But such obvious facts are ignored .... intellectual dishonesty. You spew bullshit because arguing based on truth would not work.
You are minimizing what Biden has done by trying to say what Trump has done is not equal.
In essence you are correct in that Biden had no legal right to steal classified documents, where Trump had the right to declassify.
Your incessant defense of Biden ignorance is deafening.
Nothing I have posted is made up bullshit.
Another bullshit claim. I have stated that Biden violated the PRA. I have stated that he is personally accountable for this. Your claim of minimization is demonstrably bullshit.
Trump violated the PRA too. But Trump did not cooperate in the return. He falsely claimed declassification, falsely claimed executive privilege, and false claimed private property. He engaged in delay tactics to avoid turning over the documents. He also had hundreds of classified documents in his possession. You refusing to acknowledge these differences is intellectual dishonesty.
It is pathetic.
By posting this.......then posting this
"Trump violated the PRA too. But Trump did not cooperate in the return. He falsely claimed declassification, falsely claimed executive privilege, and false claimed private property. He engaged in delay tactics to avoid turning over the documents. He also had hundreds of classified documents in his possession. "
Shows your incessant defense of Biden by minimizing what he has done compared to Trump. Why do you continue to defend Biden?
Difference is you have absolutely no clue what Trump had the right to do and not to do.
One fact among all else stands.
Trump had the right to declassify.
Biden did not.
Biden blatantly stole classified materials.
Are you trying to imply that Trump did indeed declassify these documents? Is that what you believe? Why? Where is your evidence of this?
Further, Trump could only declassify while he was PotUS. Not afterwards.
First of all, none of us know the specific nature of those documents. If a document is classified by the V.P. then the V.P. can declassify. The PotUS has much broader powers, but you are flat out wrong to declare that a V.P. cannot declassify. You are assuming that these documents were all classified outside of the V.P. Do you know this somehow? Link?
Just amazing. You really do not care about the credibility of the 'bugsy' character.
So if you think Biden blatantly stole classified materials do you ascribe the same to Trump?
Blows my mind that some people will literally spout utter nonsense and ridiculous claims and not care that their comments make them look foolish.
Dishonest on your part. I did not say that. I said he had the right to and YOU do not know what he actually did or did not do.
"First of all, none of us know the specific nature of those documents. If a document is classified by the V.P. then the V.P. can declassify. The PotUS has much broader powers, but you are flat out wrong to declare that a V.P. cannot declassify. "
That's right . We don't, but no one has given that defense of him yet, including Biden, so it is probable that he did not classify them, therefore he cannot declassify them.....he stole them. .
"Blows my mind that some people will literally spout utter nonsense and ridiculous claims and not care that their comments make them look foolish"
Blows my mind that some will go to the ends of the earth to defend Biden simply because they believe Trump did things they have no idea of if he did or not.
THAT is intellectual dishonesty.....in which you are now practicing.
I asked a question. That is very different from a statement.
What a bizarre, confused mangling of logic. You stated:
I pointed out that you do not know the nature of the documents so you cannot possibly declare that Biden did not have the right to declassify. So you are wrong there.
Second, a V.P. does have the right to declassify certain documents: those that he/she classified. Since we do not know who classified Biden's documents you cannot possibly say that Biden did not have the right to declassify. You are wrong on this aspect too.
Third, you again engage in a ridiculous leap of logic where you leap from your first two sentences into the declaration that Biden blatantly stole classified material.
You must not care how foolish that makes the 'bugsy' character look.
In all Biden has never even implied that he declassified the docs and Trump had no power to declassify after-the-fact and has failed to convince anyone that he declassified while PotUS. So your 'argument' is ridiculous to begin with.
You insinuated that I made a statement.
"I pointed out that you do not know the nature of the documents so you cannot possibly declare that Biden did not have the right to declassify."
And neither do you, however, I can assure you that if Biden originally classified those documents, then his handlers, the media, and you would be crowing this non stop.
" Second, a V.P. does have the right to declassify certain documents: those that he/she classified. Since we do not know who classified Biden's documents you cannot possibly say that Biden did not have the right to declassify"
My response is exactly the same as the one directly above.
"Third, you again engage in a ridiculous leap of logic where you leap from your first two sentences into the declaration that Biden blatantly stole classified material."
My logic is spot on and is directly related . If Biden classified, then declassified those documents, then leftist lemmings would be incessantly bleating that Biden had the right to declassify what he classified. Unfortunately for you, your hopeful continued defense of Biden has not materialized with this possibility.
"You must not care how foolish that makes the 'bugsy' character look."
Too bad for you, the "bugsy" character is once again correct in every aspect.
Your defense of Biden is quickly falling apart, and you don't like it.
Too bad.
Your words implied it. Thus I asked the question. I am not going to explain basic English discourse to you. If you do not understand how implication and follow-up question works by now then there is no point trying to educate you.
Correct. And because I do not know I do not make or imply stupid claims. You clearly do not work that way.
Now you introduce an entirely new claim. That goalpost moved quickly.
I personally do not care what people claim, I care about what is true. We know exactly what documents Biden could declassify. They are the documents that he personally classified. Period. Very easy.
Since Biden has made no claim of declassification, you continue to play speculation games with the irrelevant. Expected since you have no argument to offer.
That's good because it is obvious you also do not understand it. You first brought up that Biden has the capability to declassify material that he originally classified. I have tried to educate you but it continues to be a null point.
My claim that Biden's lemmings, and probably you, would be incessantly bleating that Biden has the right to declassify if the claim was made by Biden that he did. That is a given with no debate.
"Since Biden has made no claim of declassification, you continue to play speculation games with the irrelevant"
Zero speculation. My claim is one hundred percent on point as evidenced by liberal screeching of many other things.
I must say....your defense of Biden is spectacular, however wrong, but noted.
Do you deny that Biden had (while V.P.) the ability to declassify material he personally classified?
I would claim Biden had the right to declassify (while he was V.P.) that which he classified while he was V.P.
But this declassification talk is pointless since nobody in Biden's camp has even hinted that he declassified.
You simply make claims in lieu of an actual argument. It is pathetic.
That's curious, don't you think?
Why is that curious to you?
If Biden were to claim declassification then he would need to substantiate this with some kind of proof. It would be stupid to make a claim of declassification if this claim cannot be corroborated with official declassification records.
No I do not
"But this declassification talk is pointless since nobody in Biden's camp has even hinted that he declassified".
And that is your problem. Any hypothetical that someone brings up and does not meet your strict beliefs, it is deemed pointless or the poster is accused of intellectual dishonesty.
You absolutely, one hundred percent hate dissent to your talking points.
If you would come off your beliefs and actually ACCEPT someone else's point of view or opinion, then maybe more would want to engaged in dialogue with you.
Okay, since you keep making this personal, I am going to now weigh in.
Quit with the whining bugsy. It is pathetic.
Crying about 'mistreatment' is not going to make your crap arguments sound. It is not going to make your illogical nonsense sensible.
Instead of this incessant, predictable whining, spend more time thinking through what you write before you write it. Be correct before you make an argument and you will not be embarrassed when your obvious nonsense is shown as such.
Declassification is pointless to discuss because Biden has essentially given Trump a pass. Trump will almost certainly not face punitive actions for his classified document screw ups.
So you can hypothesize all you want, but at this point it is a waste of time.
Prior to Biden's screw up, declassification would be something I would (and did) discuss. Now, it is pointless ... it is moot. So if you want to hypothesize about declassification, I suggest you try someone else instead of complaining that I won't play.
Never have I whined about anything. I simply called out your flaws. Narcissism is not a good look.
You have proven over and over that if a poster does not discuss what YOU want to discuss, or brings up something outside your comfort zone, then you insult that poster by calling them intellectually dishonest.
You began making it personal long ago.
I'm done, but I know you flourish on getting the last word, and probably an insult to boot....so go ahead. No one cares.
Bullshit bugsy. It has not escaped the attention of others that you are intentionally making every post personal. Look at what you just wrote.
At this point I recommend that you cease with your attempts at taunting.
Make a point with facts and logic and deal, like a rational adult, with the possibility that your point might be exposed as flawed.
Then stop crying about it and flag the comments. Let the mods hash it out.
We use to make an a frame and stick a needle through it and put a bit on the end. Light it up and put a glass over it. When the glass fills with smoke...
Wait....You were....Never mind...
Biden violated the PRA. He was wrong to do so. It might have been a careless mistake or a failure in protocol by his staff, or .... but in the end Biden is accountable for violating the PRA and compromising national security.
I do not see anyone defending Biden. In contrast, the defense of Trump remains over-the-top.
Then you truly are not paying attention....
Really? Show me who on NT is arguing that Biden is NOT accountable for his failure to secure these documents?
Who is arguing that these documents were declassified, claiming executive privilege, claiming these documents were actually private, etc.?
I have observed Ds even speaking bluntly about how Biden fucked up.
This is soooo different from the way Rs handled (and handle) Trump's classified document behavior.
It is better to stand up and take responsibility for one's failures rather than engage in lame excuses.
Similarly, it is better to admit when one's 'side' screws up rather than engage in lame, intellectually dishonest attempts to dilute / change truth.
I can name at least one NT member who is ardently defending Brandon.
Without giving the name, I can tell you the name begins with Tessy and ends with lo.
I'll let you figure it out.
There are several Ds who are making as many excuses as they can to protect Trump, but yes, some of them have figured it would be politically expedient to act like they are outraged that Brandon did wrong.
I can assure you that if Trump and Hillary were not found prior to Biden with classified info, every single one of them would be defending Brandon to their last breath.
Hard to defend someone doing something exactly what the man you hate more than anything in this world did.
Are you saying this member is stating that Biden is NOT responsible? That this is NOT a failure for which he is accountable?
If so, I disagree with the individual.
Now that would be an exception, right?
(I think you meant Rs protecting Trump.)
Bottom line, looking at the two sides (Ds and Rs) on NT on these two situations (Trump and Biden), the Ds fault Biden whereas many of the Rs refuse to do so with Trump.
And we see Rs attempting to equate Biden and Trump's situation so as to (obviously) lessen the severity of what Trump did. I suspect you interpret rebuttals to that as 'defending Biden' when in reality it is countering spin.
Now you're getting it
"(I think you meant Rs protecting Trump.) "
No....I meant what I posted.
"Bottom line, looking at the two sides (Ds and Rs) on NT on these two situations (Trump and Biden), the Ds fault Biden whereas many of the Rs refuse to do so with Trump.
And we see Rs attempting to equate Biden and Trump's situation so as to (obviously) lessen the severity of what Trump did. I suspect you interpret rebuttals to that as 'defending Biden' when in reality it is countering spin"
Difference is...and you have been explained this incessantly...is that Trump had the authority to declassify documents and he said he did so. Whether that is true or not, it is for a different conversation...not part of this one.
Biden never had that authority, so in essence, he stole classified documents.
And your second sentence is exactly how you described it...defending Biden...The only equation between the two is they both had classified material in unsecure locations....at least until the FBI gave Trump the OK to store his documents in a room at Mar a Largo, as long as it was locked. Trump complied.
Everything else revolves arounf....were they authorized to have them. The answer to Biden is absolutely not. By saying that Biden is "cooperating" with the DOJ and the archives shows that you are defending him, and trying to show lessening of what he did,.
Bottom line, and to the chagrin of most leftists, is because of Biden, and even Hillary, Trump will never be prosecuted for having documents.
Irrelevant. Trump had to exercise his authority while PotUS. He has failed the challenge to prove that he did so. To prove it, he would need to identify the paperwork which records his declassification commands. There apparently is no such paperwork. Nobody has any records whatsoever of Trump's claimed declassification. Legally, his inability to do that means it is taken as fact that he did not declassify.
Do you believe Trump when he claims he declassified the documents he was holding?
You think Trump had the authority to keep classified documents at Mar-a-Lago? Granted by whom?
A point that I have repeatedly made in this forum. I am sure you are overjoyed that Trump will get away with yet another dishonest act.
I wouldn’t necessarily make that assumption. I believe our current laws about presidents going home with documents dates to Watergate. Presidents going home with incriminating evidence is a problem that has actually occurred.
Just another expensive time wasting exercise in seeking a "gotcha" moment to "own the libs". The GOP has clearly proven themselves to be incredibly corrupt at every level as a party which is evident the way they "cancel" sane conservative voices while elevating the extremist elements of their base. Liz Cheney voted with their "great white hope" Trump almost 100% of the time and they literally "cancelled" her. It makes no sense other than they have decide to lift the veil of being conservative and reveal they are the extremists. Nothing corrupt deters them, they embrace the corruption, failing to adopt any kind of ethics at all.