Teacher investigated for 'shaming' unvaccinated kids on video, school tried to destroy evidence
By: JASON RANTZ (MyNorthwest. com)
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
A student recorded a Pierce County teacher bullying him and his classmates into getting the COVID vaccine. She blamed her unvaccinated students for "killing people" by being unvaccinated.
BY JASON RANTZ
The Jason Rantz Show, 3pm-6pm on KTTH
A student recorded a Pierce County teacher bullying him and his classmates into getting the COVID vaccine. The teacher blamed her unvaccinated students for "killing people" by being unvaccinated.
Tanner is a 10th-grader at Puyallup High School. He says his biology teacher became upset that some students were improperly wearing their masks. It set her off on a rant against her unvaccinated students. She called unvaccinated students "selfish" and said they weren't welcome at school. She accused her unvaccinated students of killing people by spreading variants of the virus, warning them that they could "literally kill everyone on the planet."
That teacher is now on paid administrative leave pending an investigation into her conduct. But before the investigation took place, the school's vice principal, who identifies as an abolitionist educator, tried to have the video evidence deleted.
MyNorthwest policy chooses not to name teachers unless they are charged with a crime, arrested, or fired.
'You are killing people'
Tanner says his teacher's COVID vaccine harassment was triggered when she saw some students with masks that dropped below their noses. When she asked them to wear it correctly, he said they did. But then the teacher started to lecture her students about vaccines.
"She said one of her friend's friends died from COVID and 'if he had the vaccine, then he would have lived.' Then I said that's not true," Tanner told the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH. "And then she went on that rant."
That's when Tanner started to discreetly record the incident on his phone from his desk. When he began to record, students were already pushing back against the teacher's argument.
"You see, you have a choice not to get vaccines, but you are not allowed to come to public school," she said. "Listen up. If you want to go to public school …"
A student interrupted, saying, "My body, my choice."
"Yeah? Don't come here," the teacher responded.
Another student weighed in. She said that while she's vaccinated, forcing the vaccine on people is inappropriate. The teacher disagreed.
"You want to know why it's not your choice? Because you could create the variant that could kill millions of people. … It's very likely," the teacher said. "Do you know how many different variations come from a person who isn't vaccinated? And then it's passed and passed and passed, and it can make thousands and thousands of people sick. It is so selfish of people not to get the vaccine. You are killing people."
'You could literally kill everybody on the planet'
Later in the class, Tanner took more videos of his teacher ranting. While Tanner posted one to Facebook, two additional ones Tanner sent to the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH were not publicly available. The school does not know they exist until now.
She repeatedly downplayed any side effects to the vaccines, indicating there's "no reason" to skip the vaccine. She told students they were "hurting other people" by not getting vaccinated. And while she was pushing her students into a medical decision without their parent's consent, students pushed back.
"So if you get the vaccine, I have to?" Tanner asks in the video.
"So if you don't get the vaccine and you get sick, you can make a variant that will literally kill everybody on the planet," the teacher tells students.
"You think I'm joking? I'm not," she later added.
The argument did not impress the students. They noted nothing as dramatic has happened yet.
"We are entitled to our opinion," one student said during the vaccine-shaming.
If not for Tanner's mother, Tanya, he would have never recorded the incident. She encouraged him to document what was going on because of prior incidents where the teacher went on a "rant" about vaccines.
"So I had said, 'hey, next time that happens, why don't you video it? I just want to see it for myself,'" Tanya told the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH. "And so he did, and he sent it to me, and I turned around and went directly to the school, and I went in and asked to talk to an administrator."
The meeting didn't go as Tanya planned.
Rantz: Puyallup School District tells staff to defend critical race theory, but deny they teach it
The administrator 'refused to even engage in a conversation'
When Tanya went into the school to complain, she wanted to feel heard. She was concerned for the well-being of her son and his classmates.
But she says after meeting with assistant principal Cassie Ridenour, she didn't feel confident the school would do anything.
"I was upset. I think that it's scary what this teacher is saying to the kids," Tanya said. "It's already divided. I mean, students are divided. People, in general, are divided, and I just thought putting this out there and actually shaming them, and I thought it was somewhat bullying. And Mrs. Ridenour refused to even engage in a conversation."
Instead, Tanya says Ridenour kept saying they were opening an investigation into the conduct, and she welcomed Tanner to submit a witness statement. Finally, after getting what Tanya thought were "scripted responses" from the assistant principal, she revealed that Tanner recorded a portion of the incident so he wouldn't have to provide a witness statement.
Ridenour did not review the video evidence. Tanya says Ridenour demanded she delete the video because Tanner didn't have permission to record. Tanya ended the conversation soon after denying that request. She didn't trust anything would come of her complaint.
Parents with experience with Puyallup High School have reached out to the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH to express concerns about the administration getting too political. Ridenour's name has come up multiple times.
The assistant principal, who confusingly lists her personal pronouns as "she/her/they/them," identifies as an "Abolitionist Education in Training." Her email signature says she's "Striving to Dismantle Systems of Oppression," which links to the Abolitionist Teaching Network, a progressive activist organization.
Paid administrative leave
While the Puyallup School District said it was investigating the conduct, it escalated after the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH became involved. After asking the district for comment, Tanner says the school started pulling students from class to ask them what happened.
"It's very weird — people that were in that class kept getting pulled out. And then I got pulled out to write a witness form," he explained.
A spokesperson for the Puyallup School District confirmed that they "are in the process of finding out what occurred in class, in addition to what was captured in the 2-minute video recording."
Tanner says there's no additional context that would change the substance of his video.
"With regards to your inquiry, as soon as we became aware of the incident we took immediate steps to launch an investigation with staff and students. The teacher is currently on paid leave," the spokesperson told the Jason Rantz Show on KTTH.
The spokesperson also confirmed that Ridenour asked Tanya to delete the video evidence.
"The request was made simply because it was an inappropriate use of technology during class time that was recorded without permission," she said.
This timeline is troubling.
Tanner says the school asked to review the video on Wednesday, Sept. 29. This was after I asked for a comment where I referenced the video recording. But Tanya met with Ridenour on Monday, Sept. 27. That means the abolitionist educator in training demanded Tanya delete the video evidence two days before the school sought it during the investigation.
"The request could have been handled differently, but it was made in an effort to minimize student disruption," the spokesperson admitted. She says there were multiple copies of the video available.
Tanner also says a classmate was not discreet while recording the incident on Snapchat. The teacher, he says, confronted the student and made him stop. And late last week, students were told via the intercom that filming teachers is "harassment" and prohibited. When asked to provide the legal guidance used to call filming inside a public school "harassment," the spokesperson did not respond.
Rantz: School segregated maskless kids into small portable without social distancing
What does a resolution look like?
While the teacher is out on paid leave, Tanner and Tanya just want the ranting to stop so the class can get back to normal. Neither wants to see the teacher fired.
"I don't want my kids bullied over a decision that I made for them right now. I don't want them told that they are killing people, that they are so, so selfish," Tanya said.
She worries this kind of rhetoric from the teacher will lead to tension between students. And does Tanner fear the teacher will retaliate against him for this investigation?
"I think once it's settled, she'll do the right thing," Tanner said.
Rantz: Students told to wear mask while chewing lunch, district cites nonexistent guidance
Did you like this opinion piece? Then listen to the Jason Rantz Show weekday afternoons from 3-6 pm on KTTH 770 AM (HD Radio 97.3 FM HD-Channel 3). Subscribe to the podcast here. Follow @JasonRantz on Twitter,Instagram, and Parler, and like me on Facebook.
Share Jason Rantz on AM 770 KTTH
-
Tune in to AM 770 KTTH weekdays at 3-6pm to The Jason Rantz Show .
Jason Rantz Show
Tags
Who is online
450 visitors
Trolling, taunting, and off-topic comments may be removed at the discretion of group mods. NT members that vote up their own comments or continue to disrupt the conversation risk having all of their comments deleted. please remember to quote the person(s) to whom you are replying to preserve the continuity of this seed. Any Comments or Postings that concern anything but the Article Topics are subject to immediate deletion without warning as off topic....
Teachers abusing students based upon their politics!
Why in Hell are any unvaccinated children still allowed into our public schools at this point? They lined us up in the hallway outside the school cafeteria in the sixties to be vaccinated for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, chickenpox and tetanus. Hell! I have had seven vaccinations jusr this year alone! Three for Covid, two for Shingles, for the Flu and a Tetanus booster. Anti Vaxxers need to get over themselves and stay the Hell away from everybody else!
Good for you! I'm happy YOU got what YOU thought YOU needed... But, do YOU have the RIGHT to FORCE YOUR views on anyone else? Especially when the SCIENCE/DATA says kids don't die from covid?
YOU seem to think YOU do...
I have a solution for your problem, why don't YOU stay away from the kids? or anyone else that YOU think is unvaxxed for that matter... Which is a decision you are perfectly well capable of making and have EVERY RIGHT to make...
What a concept!
Yes, we do have a right to demand that the unvaccinated be segregated for public safety including kicking their virulent snotty nosed kids out of our public school!
Not an issue, Parents are pulling their students out of Public schools here in Washington in record numbers... I've already posted an article on that... No need to fear, we will let you have your racist public political indoctrination centers...
Actually the SCIENCE/DATA says the opposite.
Oh Kavika is Googling again!
Here Kavika read the data that's been out there from the beginning:
"While the share of children who have been infected with the coronavirus is growing in the United States, kids are far less likely than adults to become severely ill with COVID-19 or die from it. USA TODAY analyzed data on COVID-19 and spoke to pediatric disease specialists across the country to understand the risk to children.
“The good news continues to be that this is not a common problem for kids,” said Dr. Daniel Rauch, chief of pediatric hospital medicine at Tufts Children’s Hospital in Boston. “The bad news is kids are not immune to this.”
Really?
Directly from you AAP link...
In other words, next to NONE.... So what did I say?
Absolutely TRUE! Thanks for the confirmation...
You may want to actually read the stats. 143 children have died from it and 17 of those are in Florida.
You may want to tell the parents those children have died that it not a problem.
You also may want to re read the statement I responded to which said this.
''Especially when the SCIENCE/DATA says kids don't die from covid?''
Reading and understanding is essential when trying to make a point, Vic.
You are somebody who Googles. You have ignored the percentages and the contributing factors. The harm that is being done by having young children wear masks all day or having them learn from home far outweighs those tiny numbers you want to use.
You actually may want to try reading your statement again. They do die from covid.
I didn't confirm anything that you said no matter how hard you want it to. It quotes the actual number of deaths.
But I know that those facts are something that you don't want to acknowledge but it matters not since they are real.
Carry on.
And ignores the cold hard truth:
0.00%-0.03% of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death
LOLOLOL, how can telling the exact number of COVID cases and deaths in children be ignoring the cold hard truth? You best try to figure out what the truth is before babbling on.
Very true Cav...
In case you ask where that came from...
A United Nations policy brief, " The Impact of Covid-19 on Children " 15 April 2020...
Yes, that's a year an eight months old.. it's not something they haven't known about for a long time now... the chances of a child dying from covid are less than being struck by lightning, children have a 1000% greater chance of being struck by a car and killed walking to school than being killed by covid...
The point is that they do die and they are hospitalized from it.
That is what science really says.
Out of 800,000+ deaths to date and every source, (including yours) says they probably had other conditions that helped cause their deaths...
You want to talk truth, then produce the facts, how old were they, what were their direct causes of death? your demanding truth and fact but not providing any... and we do know that many jurisdictions were claiming any death of a person who was infected was a Covid death... Also an established fact...
Your taking one report as absolute fact without the ability to back that up in front of other facts that establish exactly what we are saying... and just about every reporter has verified... (including the UN, essentially the whole world) we are saying the same things all these others have been saying for almost two years now...
Have children died? yes, what was the youngest? does the data say we need to vax them all, no... and that is what the health experts and medical people have been saying for quite some time...
It's the politicians and political oriented people who want to vax everyone, even those that scientifically don't need it...
Just amazing that this debate even continues.
I appreciate the freedom concern of being forced to take the vaccine. But denying access to those who stubbornly refuse to be vaccinated and have no medical reason to not do so seems prudent for overall safety. The fewer unvaccinated, the fewer chances for people to be infected and continue this endless pandemic. Clearly it is in the best interest of society to not have medical resources stressed taking care of infected COVID-19 patients. Clearly it is in the best interest of society to not be continually taking all the safeguards necessary while in a pandemic.
Instead of arguing for the rights of the unvaccinated and thus supporting this endless pandemic, why not encourage everyone who medically can to get vaccinated, get boosters, etc. so that we can see a light at the end of this tunnel?
Irrational.
It's amazing that it even started...
I take exception to your claiming that you understand the freedom concern, Why I do that?
Because you go straight into the rights of the vaxxed to segregate those un-vaxxed out of society..
The rational that if everyone is vaxxed then the pandemic is over...
And just when does a MANDATE become Encouragement? Encouragement leave the person with a choice, Mandates remove all choice...
Are you making the argument that a mandate is encouragement?
That's what is irrational..
If anyone should be producing the facts it's you. You stated that no children died from it and now you're trying to spin the nonsense that you posted when you were proved wrong.
Sad, that you or the other defender of BS on here simply can't accept the fact that you are wrong.
I don't see any reason to waste time on an article where the seeder can't see the truth of the matter.
Carry on
Good question, why do you do that?
What a distorted perception. I stated that there is a problem for everyone as long as a significant portion of our population is unvaccinated. I also stated that unless there is a medical reason to not do so, everyone should get vaccinated. It is all right there. Just read what I wrote.
If everyone (most everyone) is fully vaccinated do you somehow NOT see how that leads us out of the pandemic?? I did not say that COVID-19 would be eradicated from the face of the Earth. My point is that vaccinations absolutely do work ... the empirical evidence is overwhelming. So, obviously (one would think), it is best for society for everyone to get vaccinated (if medically possible) so that our hospitals can get back to normal, businesses can get back to normal, life can continue. We will always have a threat of coronavirus just like we have an ongoing threat of the flu. But we will be beyond pandemic.
Where did I mention a mandate much less state that a mandate is encouragement? Read what people write and invent less.
Super simple summary of my point: everyone should get vaccinated if medically possible to do so.
So one kid died, vax all of them... despite the waste of time and resources that plainly is...
Is that the argument your making? Kids don't die from this in general, an absolutist can argue that kids have died so that statement from all the scientists and scientific organizations is inaccurate...
so ok, you can have the childish point... And I'm supposed to be the one that has to be absolutely right like all you guys claim?
Your funny {chuckle}
YOU are not going to make this about me nor are you going to use your turn it around you don't understand me tactics either...
You made your point clear, you didn't need to restate it... Your the one who used the word encouragement not I, but your not actually supporting that you support the government mandates... or is everything else you've posited on this board a lie?
Conversation is now over, from here on it becomes a pointless semantics argument... You can have that with yourself...
You consider it a waste of time and resources to vaccinate unvaccinated children where it is medically possible to do so?
Actually, 143 kids died and many more have been hospitalized. I didn't know that saving lives and attempting to stop the spread of COVID was a waste of time. That is a really sad comment by you.
So you consider facts to be childish points, now that is childish. The rest of the comment is something that seems to be in your mind only.
And you're ignoring facts {chuckle}
Three and a half million have died worldwide with no end in sight yet except for vaccinating everyone including children who can contract the disease and do spread it to others...
IMPASSE
Wow that was quick. You get one rebuttal from me and flee the scene with your hands waving in the air.
I used the word ' encouragement ', not ' mandate ' as you claimed. The two words are quite different. Hello?
A conversation did not even start. You came out of the gate with a strawman.
You do not get to write crap and then attempt to use IMPASSE to stifle a rebuttal. Buy a vowel.
It is your article butt you can't even defend it?
So your all for forced vaxxing... how much force? gunpoint?
What else are you agreeable to forcing on others?
If the vaccines are intended to protect individuals from the COVID disease - and infection - then why would those who are vaccinated need to segregate the unvaccinated?
If the COVID vaccines worked according to published expectations then dispersing and mingling the unvaccinated within the vaccinated population would slow spread of the virus and provide some protection for the unvaccinated. Wasn't that what the public was told about herd immunity?
That is entirely a supposition. First of all, the pandemic has become a narrative about hospitalization and not about infection within the population. Our healthcare system is collapsing. We aren't adding hospital capacity; we aren't adding trained personnel. Only now has a prospective viable treatment for the disease become available. At this point the pandemic is more about inadequate response than about the disease.
If the coronavirus continues to circulate as does influenza then the coronavirus will still be mutating and the risk of more infectious and more virulent strains emerging does not subside. The vaccines may only temporarily reduce severe illness within the population but there isn't any scientifically valid information that suggests the vaccines will end the pandemic.
The seasonal outbreaks of influenza do not support the supposition that vaccines will end the pandemic. Influenza vaccines have not prevented viral mutations and have not eliminated the emergence of infectious and virulent strains of influenza. The supposition that vaccines will end the COVID pandemic is not scientifically valid.
Do you see a reason to engineer situations so that unvaccinated people do not cluster? To reduce the likelihood of infecting others?
It is supposition that our medical resources are stressed dealing with COVID-19 infections?
Yes, so we should take steps to mitigate circulation. Right? Common sense?
The vaccines reduce transmission by attacking infections and mitigating the spread. Not 100% but nothing is 100%. If you are vaccinated you have antibodies that will attack the virus as soon as you are infected. Thus you are less likely to infect others than an unvaccinated person who has no antibodies and serves as an incubator for potentially new variants.
Let me guess, you have your own special meaning for the word 'pandemic'.
How appalling of the man, he should bow to Microsoft's updates and become Bing Banger.
The unvaxxed are a danger to society.
If everyone were vaccinated, there would be little opportunity for the virus to spread, which would effectively end the pandemic. Yes, that is quite rational.
What's irrational is people not getting vaccinated, especially after all this time.
That seems rather nonchalant.
Are you suggesting vaccinations are a waste of time and resources?
The unvaccinated mingling with the vaccinated population is NOT an engineered situation; that's how real life really works.
A supposition that vaccines will end the pandemic is logically incoherent. As I pointed out, the published narrative of the pandemic is not consistent with scientific measures of pandemic.
Vaccinated people also become infected. So, logically, a vaccinated individual who becomes infected would be more likely to be the source of mutations that overcome the immunity provided by vaccines. That's how drug resistant variants of both bacterial and viral variants emerge.
Influenza vaccination has not controlled mutations and emergence of more infectious and virulent strains within a vaccinated population.
Sure I can, I chose not to defend it to people who are only looking to argue... that is their only childish point...
Honest debate I'm willing to have, what they offer isn't honest debate...
Yeah Nerm the fact that commingling occurs naturally was my point.
That is how pandemics end. Pandemics end by reducing the potential for infection. This should be obvious, not incoherent to you. You do understand that ending a pandemic is not equivalent to eliminating the virus, right?
I just stated that as part of my explanation.
A vaccine in a hostile environment that is killing it off is less likely to mutate and also less likely to spread than in one with no killer antibodies. Surely you see why this is so.
Vic should actually try googling more it would save him some embarrassment.
You posted a completely false comment and it was pointed out to you that it was you went into a super spin and numerous strawmen. So it was you that couldn't defend your childish nonsense.
No, you are not. If you wanted honest debate then you would have acknowledged the fact that at least 143 children died. That is a dishonest debate on your part.
Please don’t say “kids don’t die.” They do. They die in very small numbers, relatively speaking, but they do die.
However, death is not the only measure of the seriousness of this disease. Many more people who survive covid, do so after an unpleasant and scary trip to the hospital, and then suffer from long term damage.
Furthermore, even though children don’t die in significant numbers from Covid, they do get infected. Those infections allow the virus to spread to other, more vulnerable people like teachers and parents, or simply other kids whose immune systems may not be as strong. Those infections also provide opportunities for the virus to mutate into something worse than what we are currently seeing.
In short, the choice to vaccinate or not does not only impact the person who does or does not get the shot. It impacts other people in ways that can be life-changing or life-ending.
It seems like many people today think it’s a good idea to teach our children that each one of them should think only of themselves and not others. That is sad.
I have had to rush a sick child to the hospital and I would not wish that experience on any other parent or child. Too many people these days are taking a myopic “fuck it” attitude to protecting our children and the rest of society. It may not be a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to others. Get vaccinated. Get kids vaccinated. We need as many vaccinated people as we can get.
How does that 'false' comment compare to public declarations by the Biden administration and the scientific community that the COVID vaccines are completely safe?
The available data does not support a declaration that the COVID vaccines are completely safe. Even news reporting by the popular press does not support that declaration that vaccines are completely safe.
Yes, COVID has caused a number of hospitalizations in the young population. But the COVID vaccines have also caused a number of hospitalizations in the young population. The young population are not completely safe from either COVID or vaccines.
Pandemics are not based upon severity of disease. A pandemic is measured by prevalence of a disease causing agent within the population. A rhinovirus that causes common cold symptoms can cause a pandemic by spreading rapidly and becoming prevalent in the population. In the case of the COVID pandemic, each variant that becomes prevalent is technically a separate pandemic.
Ending a pandemic requires reducing the prevalence of a disease causing agent within the population. Some pandemics don't end but the disease is so mild that the pandemic is not a concern. We live with the pandemic.
That may be logical speculation but is not a scientific fact. Logically an infection in someone with immunity is more likely to result in a mutation that overcomes immunity. An infection of someone who does not have immunity would result in mutations that have equal likelihood of being less infections and more infectious.
Logically infection of vaccinated people would be more likely to result in more deadly mutations.
True, but not by force or threat... That's the difference...
How many of those children had comorbidities that may have been the actual causes of their deaths?
NWM comment was that no children died, which is false. Simply as that.
If you need to know if they had comorbidities which of course has nothing to do with the original comment you can research it and let us all know.
In comment 3.1.6 you posted statistics. I merely asked for proof that your stats were caused by Covid-19 deaths or comorbidities. It appears that you cannot provide the data. No problem.
2200 and counting = none.
So alternative facts aren't enough, now it's alternative math.
Perhaps you should read the links I provided in 3.1.3 it appears that you didn't, no problem.
No, that’s not the difference. This claim is as disingenuous and generally bogus as pretty much every other anti-vax excuse. Getting vaccinated is the right thing to do and blowing it off is the wrong thing. And as it is the right thing, people should be doing it regardless of whether or not force or threats exist.
What empirical data validates the idea that getting a COVID vaccine is the 'right thing to do'? The empirical data indicate that pneumonia poses a greater risk for school age children and a comparable risk for everyone else as for COVID. Why aren't there mandates for pneumonia vaccination? Pneumococcal pneumonia bacteria are contagious, vaccines are available, and morbidity for pneumonia is comparable to COVID.
The empirical data indicates that the mandate should require those aged 55 and older be vaccinated against COVID. The empirical data doesn't validate that COVID vaccination is necessary for all age groups.
Check the data yourself:
And where do you see me suggesting that a pandemic was based on severity? Endless strawman crap, Nerm.
Let's cut this crap short:
Just go with Oxford's definition. Don't invent your own definition and do not try to put words in my mouth either.
When a population of a virus is being actively killed by antibodies, the reproduction is reduced and the time of activity is reduced. Your claim is nonsense.
800,000 dead Americans. Many more with long term health problems even if they survive. Some spend weeks or months in the hospital. Many are on oxygen months later. They have organ damage. Or it may be something like a loss of taste and smell that lasts months.
5 million dead worldwide.
All those numbers are increasing.
The biggest problem is that Covid is both deadly and contagious. Lots of other things kill people - traffic accidents, heart disease, cancer, and so on. But those things are not contagious. Covid is contagious, and it is highly contagious. It is more contagious than the flu or polio or smallpox. The latest variant is as contagious as Measles - 10 TIMES what the original strain was.
The more infections there are, the more the virus has a chance to mutate. The latest mutation is more resistant to the vaccine than previous versions, although the vaccines do still offer some protection.
These are not opinions or beliefs. They are facts. Data support the things I have said here. (What follows is opinion.)
Getting vaccinated isn’t just a personal choice. If you want to be around other people, you take responsibility for their health and their lives. Therefore, the right thing to do is to get vaccinated. Or stay home.
(deleted)
Actually, I did, so you shouldn't have assumed I didn't. Here's some data from your links:
So, let's wrap this up. The children who became very seriously ill had the original Covid-19, Delta variant, and/or MIS-C and were severely immunocompromised.
It clearly states most but not all, so if they had underlying health conditions is that supposed to make a difference in your mind or in their deaths. They are children and they are dead and it goes back to NWM comment that no children died, which is not true.
Here is the CDC figures on child death 0 to 18 years old.
That total according to the CDC is 439 deaths in children 0 to 18 years old.
Now it's wrapped up.
The impasse rule should have ended this thread. As per the CoC:
Agree to Disagree
A call of ‘AGREE TO DISAGREE’ can be made between two members. Unlike impasse, which ceases all discussion, the two parties can still engage but not on that topic. As with impasse, the agree to disagree is a comment that contains one and only one phrase: ‘AGREE TO DISAGREE’.
The impasse was with Kavika, not JBB... or does an impasse end the entire conversation with EVERYONE?
Thanx for the info! I missed the distinction, too. So, I'm guilty of incorrectly calling 'impasse' as well. My bad.
Citing the dictionary definition of an operative word and suggesting that we stick to that is not meta.
Speaking of how a population of a virus is killed by antibodies and how that reduces the reproduction and the available opportunity for mutation is not meta.
And simply typing the word IMPASSE accomplishes nothing.
So if impasse doesn't do anything, why is it there?
To effect an impasse one must write a single word comment.
Writing a comment and ending it with IMPASSE accomplishes nothing.
Personally speaking, the IMPASSE is abused most every time it is used (only one member does seem to use it properly from what I have observed). Most use it as an attempt to put a muzzle on their interlocutor. That was never the intent. The intent was to gracefully end a heated exchange; not to prevent logical (vs. emotional) rebuttal. That is, IMPASSE is not a wild card to exit a losing debate.
Why? In effect, all you've done is cede the last word to whomever you were replying to.
Why what? I just cited the long-standing rule. Not my invention, I personally think IMPASSE does more harm than good.
You added to your text while I was replying.
Yes, you are correct. It does give your interlocutor the last word if used properly. It also is a means to prevent your interlocutor from replying to you in the entire thread.
A debate over dictionary definitions and usage of terms must, of necessity, be self referencing and cannot avoid being a meta discussion. And the meta discussion of definitions does not contribute to discussion of the topic.
Which does not require a self-referencing discussion on definition and usage of terms.
As I have learned in this thread. Thanks again to Perrie for setting me straight. So, we now
Agree to Disagree
Agree to Disagree
Not a debate. Good grief man, I suggested that we go with the dictionary definition for the word pandemic. That is a third party. A rational way to proceed in an English discussion is to agree on a third party, authoritative meaning for the operative words.
That is a problem for you??
So address then what I typed instead of continuing with meta:
refers to this
That observation should be obvious. My expectation is that you realize this now and want to just exit. Fine. Do so honestly instead of pretending that I am doing something wrong by providing a thoughtful factual rebuttal. That is a key way that IMPASSE is abused ... to exit a lost point with a pretense that your interlocutor is behaving badly and you are just taking the high road.
That is not how Agree to Disagree works either, Nerm.
Nerm, if you want to use Agree to Disagree to exit a discussion you write a comment that only contains the words "Agree to Disagree".
Nothing else.
That usage of impasse is a sign of surrender from a debate, when one cannot formulate a logical or rational argument. And yes, I agree it is abused.
Yes, in that thread. If you want to end it with just one person, you can "Agree to disagree" but just like with "Impasse" you can't say anything to that person and you can not refer to them further down the thread in any way.
Thank you for the clarification....
So, my understanding is now that you use AtD to end an unproductive back and forth with an individual and Impa. when your exiting the entire thread.. Thread being 3.1, 3.2 etc.etc... And that is reciprocal, Correct?
What science are you looking at? Kids have already become infected and died from Covid. Some suffer health complications after recovering from infection too.
How about they all stay away from me or society! Or better yet, get vaccinated. Yeah, what a concept indeed!
Getting vaccinated shouldnt even be a question or isdue at this point. If people are too stupid or inconsiderate to do their part to help end the pandemic, Save lives, and decrease the burden on others and the healthcare system, then I'm all for forced vaccinations. But since threats or actual force is not likely to be used, then public ridicule and embarrassment will have to suffice. But then, a large portion of the public are already idiots by not being vaccinated, do public pressure would be weak. As the saying goes, the inmates run the asylum now.
Correct. Please remember that only to end the discussion by either method only those words must be used in the reply. No last words are allowed.
Got it... Thanks Sweets...
Yes Gordy, I agree, the inmates are definitely running the asylum at this point...
Since I screwed up using IMPASSE, I deleted my comment to avoid confusion.
You might consider deleting your comment @3.1.23 and replacing it with AGREE TO DISAGREE.
I considered it, but the point was made, so it's best to leave it, a pretty good lesson in using them and gave Perrie the chance to spell it out without having to drop the hammer on anyone... Not that that was what I intended but it worked out for the best... As TiG pointed out a lot of people needed to understand how it's properly used... Heck, even I didn't really understand completely and I was around when it was created...
It's all good brother...
Got my second booster yesterday. (I'm old and vulnerable.)
Expect that boosters will be needed in the future as the unvaccinated continue to pass all of the variants onto we responsible folk.
P.S. Have never had any sort of a reaction to any of the four vaccinations.
Why in hell hasn't a Republican President broken the backs of the Teacher's unions after all this time?
They lined us up in the hallway outside the school cafeteria in the sixties to be vaccinated for polio, smallpox, measles, mumps, chickenpox and tetanus.
Well, you see, in those days we didn't have a Biden or a Harris campaigning on not trusting the vaccine.
What does you hating Democrats have to do with forcing krazy unvaccinated rightwinger's dumbass kids into our public schools?
Send your kids to school in masks for the entire day....Or do you have kids?
That is irrelevant. It is an established legal opinion that students, the military, public employees and workers can be required to be vaccinated. What is your problem? Stay home if you do not want to participate in society!
Vaccination is one thing. Having a child wear a mask all day is something else.
I'd be glad to have Randi Weingarten wear one for 10-12 hours.
As long as all those people working in Covid wards wear them their whole shifts kid can...
I have two daughters, 7 and 12, and both are vaccinated and wear their masks at school full time. We've already had 2 Covid scares, one where the host family of a birthday party all tested positive after the party and then all the families of the kids who went to the party had to quarantine, and the other was a child at the middle school tested positive and 4 other kids became infected, 82 kids had to quarantine because they had been in the same class with the infected child. My daughter would have been one of them though because she was one of just 5 out of the 82 kids potentially exposed that had been fully vaccinated she was allowed back to school without quarantining after having no symptoms, getting tested and coming back negative.
I really don't care if some parents don't give a fuck about their or their child's health and safety. If some parents want to let their kids ride bikes or skateboards without helmets or let them jump off the roof flimsy tables pretending to be a backyard WWE giving themselves concussions and broken bones, that's their parents choice. But when that child is being given the privilege and responsibility of coming out into society and putting other people and other peoples children at risk, they are expected and mandated to follow certain rules like studying and passing a driving test before being allowed to drive a several thousand pound killing machine on public streets.
We teach them to follow the speed limits and road rules which protects both our child and the other drivers around them. We teach them to follow the rules like not crossing the street when the red 'Do Not Walk' sign is flashing across from you, which protects your child and the drivers in that public space. We are required to get our children vaccinated for a dozen other dangerous diseases before they're allowed to attend public school. We have all sorts of rules and laws that are in place in public society that are meant to keep ourselves and others safe, requiring vaccinations or masks or both for certain jobs and for kids and teachers at public schools until we've actually gotten through this pandemic is just common sense.
Those fighting and rejecting such basic common sense remind me of a 5 year old child who refuses to take a bite of something he's unfamiliar with, swearing up and down, tears in his eyes, that it tastes terrible even though they have no clue what it tastes like because they've never tried it, and the rest of us are standing there with the tiny bite on the end of the baby spoon just begging them to try it, swirling it around like an airplane and making motor sounds with our mouths, anything to get these fucking babies to take a bite of healthy food so we can all move on and leave the dinner table and get back to our lives. If people refuse to follow the laws and rules of our roadways, they get their licenses pulled, their privilege's revoked. If someone doesn't want they or their children to get vaccinated or wear masks then that is their choice, just like someone refusing to follow driving laws, they simply have their privileges revoked, no public school and no working in certain industries or the government.
No one is coming to your home, knocking down the door and forcing people to get vaccinated, no one is holding these babies arms to their side while someone shoves the bite in their mouths. So why are they so fucking upset? Because they're being denied dessert, they're being denied societal privileges like sending their kids to public schools or working certain jobs because of their own reckless childish behavior.
So it is ok to extirpate them from society cause they do not conform to your beliefs? How is that any different than say extirpating Asians from educational opportunity because they are too smart? What's the difference?
Excellent point that needs constant repeating as a reminder.
Except for the polio vaccine, we also didn't get any of the other mentioned vaccines in public or private schools. The chickenpox vaccine wasn't available to the US public until the 1980s.
No. No one said anything about beliefs. I don’t give a shit about anyone’s beliefs when it comes to the Covid vaccine. If you don’t believe in vaccines, I don’t care.
What I care about - and what most people with any common sense care about - is a highly contagious disease that has killed over 800,000 Americans in less than two years and almost 5 million globally.
To make matters worse, the latest variant of that disease is now figured by infectious disease experts to be about as contagious as Measles, which is one of the most contagious viruses we have ever encountered. Delta was figured to be about 1.5 to 2 times more contagious than the original strain of Covid coronavirus. Omicron looks to be about 5 times as contagious as Delta. That makes it about 10 times as contagious as the original.
And you’re generally contagious for a longer period of time with Covid than you are with the flu.
The point of the vaccine is to protect public health. It’s not about “beliefs.”
I don’t give a shit if you or anyone else “believes” in that, but if you don’t want to be vaccinated, stay your ass at home.
And no, I also don’t give a shit about anyone’s feelings about it.
And if they don't, keep away from them, keep your ass at home... what gives you more rights than they? No I don't give a crap about anyone's feelings either... They have as much right to be free as you do...
It IS about beliefs, yours and everyone who thinks like you... Thinks that you have the right to incarcerate everyone who won't do what YOU and your ilk want them no DEMAND they do...
YOUR RIGHTS are no more important than THEIRS... This nation was built upon the rights of the one are just as important as the many... and what your saying is you will throw that away for a false sense of safety...
How very very selfish of you...
The simple fact that I am taking steps to keep my fellow human beings from not getting sick or dying. Contrast that with selfish babies who want to spread disease as far and wide as they possibly can. That’s what gives me more rights.
No, they don’t. That’s why they arrested Typhoid Mary.
No it’s actually about medical science. Belief doesn’t enter into it unless you have decided not to believe in medical science. And if that’s the case, you’re a danger to other people, so again: fuck your rights.
Yeah, it’s a bitch, ain’t it? We have rules for civilized society. You can’t kill people. You can’t enslave people. You can’t steal shit. You can’t litter. You can’t destroy other people’s property. And you can’t willingly spread dangerous viruses. Time to grow up and get over it.
And that IS the rub... YOUR belief that they are willingly spreading disease... That is YOUR opinion.... Hence YOUR personal belief...
Exactly the same an the Governuers and this school teachers beliefs that people by not getting vaxed are WILLINGLY spreading disease...
A HUGE assumption...
Yeah it's a bitch it really is... Fuck everyone else when it comes to me and mine... cause that is what your position represents... I think it's time your side does a little growing up as well.. They need it more than our side does, I least we are not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater...
If you choose to speed excessively, refuse to follow safe driving laws or drink and drive you lose the privilege of driving on our public roadways. It doesn't matter if you believe you're fine to drive when you're at .1% blood alcohol level, it doesn't matter if you think you can drive safely at 110 mph, you have to conform or lose your rights and privileges because you're putting others at risk whether you want to believe it or not.
Well for one thing 'smart Asians' haven't killed 4.8 million humans in the last two and a half years. How can you not see the fucking difference between excluding someone because of their race and excluding someone who is putting others at risk of infection of a deadly virus? Not being able to see the monumental divide between the two is quite frankly insane.
It’s a logical position. But if you disagree, then you are free to try and explain how refusing to mask, social distance, or be vaccinated should be better perceived.
Agree to Disagree...
That is literally the position of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers.
The side that isn't wetting their pants in fear of needles is definitely far more grown up. My 7 year old got her vaccination and said it didn't hurt at all, she's far more adult than the little whiny babies who are still refusing to get vaccinated hiding their fear of needles behind the sorry excuse of it "being the principle of the thing...". Oh shut the fuck up and get the shot you pussies.
Which ones? The vaccinated ones or the unvaccinated front line workers that Biden wants fired?
dumbass kids
To be fair, the dumb asses are their parents, not the kids. 10 to 1, most kids want the vaccine, but their parents are preventing them from getting it. Most kids these days believe in the science, not the moronic conspiracy theories their parents are listening to.
How about the side that isn't wetting their pants over little kids or people that think differently then they do... Like I have said to others, Your beliefs aren't more important than anyone else's... Fuck everyone else who don't believe the same as you... I've been vaxxed, so has the wife, but I'll tell ya what, when they come for the un-vaxxed to line them up against the wall, cause of your childish fears, they will have to shoot me first... You believe that those people freedom of choice is a threat to your lives... Which is hardly the case... And on top of that, you also believe it is intentional... They are deliberately trying to kill you... Don't be surprised if they defend themselves... INSANITY!!!
Sometimes it does take a thing such as this to get people to show their true selfish colors..
So be it...
Why hasn't there been an attempt to improve masks? Obviously masks are going to remain an important protective measure well into the future.
The demand to 'just wear a mask' is trite since we're still relying on designs that have been around for over 100 years with no effort expended to improve masks. Is that a failure of science? Is that a failure of capitalism? Is that based on a belief that politics will end the pandemic?
I wish I had an answer to any of those questions.
The public has been demanding answers to those questions. In spite of spurious political obfuscation, ignorance abhors a vacuum.
If answers to those questions aren't provided, then the public will create its own answers.
That would require changing the politics of the pandemic. If you've been paying attention there has been a subtle shift away from a political narrative of 'follow the science' toward a political narrative of 'follow the advice of experts'.
The 'science', in its myriad specialties, isn't providing the needed knowledge. We've embarked upon a course of action with the expectation that vaccines will end the pandemic. And that course of action has been guided by scientific conjecture and opinion rather than knowledge. Scientific knowledge has not filled the vacuum created by conjecture and opinion. Now it's becoming obvious that the vaccine effort is not going to fulfill the expectation of ending the pandemic.
No one is providing direction for producing the needed scientific knowledge. The scientific effort directed towards the pandemic has been haphazard, arbitrary, unplanned, and more responsive to public opinion than to the need for knowledge. The response to the pandemic has been guided by layer upon layer of expert speculation, conjecture, and opinion because the scientific effort has not been providing empirically tested and validated knowledge.
The political response to the pandemic has been following rather than leading. Now that the political response has followed an expectation that cannot be fulfilled there is a growing political need to cast blame and find scapegoats.
They only line random citizens up against the wall checking for papers in right wing conservative fascist governments.
There are certain high exposure jobs like the healthcare industry, hospitality, education or government jobs/facilities where you're interacting with those who make the wheels of government move or are in our military where we need to be ready for anything at a moments notice and can't afford widespread infection among our troops, where it makes sense to require extra safety like mask and vaccine mandates. Working in those fields is a privilege and requiring extra safety measures for those fields does not make us some sort of fascist police State.
If you don't want to get vaccinated or wear a mask then don't work in the fields or for those companies that mandate masks or vaccinations. Stay home, or go stand on a street corner holding up a cardboard sign that reads "Unwilling to get vaccinated and hate masks! Please donate to my self-inflicted victim fund!".
There is still plenty of society you can enjoy without a mask or vaccination, all the outdoors and lots of delivery options for eats. And I don't believe these idiot anti-vaxxers are "deliberately trying" to kill anyone, though there may be some nut jobs who believe we should achieve herd immunity through mass infection. I think it more likely that the idiot anti-vaxxers are either very afraid of needles or they're simply contrarians who can't help but take the opposite position of whatever the majority of society take.
These contrarians, often right wing conservative Christians, believe they are fighting against "the establishment" and the "main stream media" which becomes their identity so they follow the insane loopy logic down the rabbit hole till they are dug into whatever contrary position ideologically and imagine every one who goes along with society or the MSM is trying to take their freedoms away and is a part of the "machine" or "deep state" that's coming to get them and line them up against a wall and mask, vaccinate, castrate, genetically test on, silence, mind control, drug or turn into lizard people.
The point is, the contrarians don't have any actual valid complaints, they simply take the contrary position so if the MSM and Democrats said the 'Trump vaccine' couldn't be trusted and banned masks and vaccines from America these right wing conservative contrarians would be the ones out there breaking the law to mask up with red MAGA masks and be getting the 'Trump vaccine' at rogue clinics.
The nut cases are the nut cases, they are on both political sides, My wife's aide is a die hard liberal Obama democrat, yet she absolutely will NOT get vaxxed... Her position is they don't have the right to do that...
I'm a libertarian and I'm vaxxed cause it was the right thing for me...
The difference between you and me?
It is MY right to choose what is best for me the same as it is your right to do the same...
IT IS NOT MY RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR ANYONE ELSE!, neither is it yours...
All the arguments for forced vaxing is to protect yourself, you and yours is the justification for applying force to another... the society at large argument comes after the personal argument... Simply as another justification for the first....
That is NOT what this nation was founded upon, it IS what this nation was founded to prevent... But then in fear of you and yours, you will throw everyone's rights right out the window, including your own...
I won't do that...
ALL of them wear PPE.
The EMPLOYERS are the ones setting the standard Vic. Oh and BTFW, you and yours are all about 'at will employment' right?
Coming from one of those one room schoolhouses as a child, am happy to say that I graduated with honors from a university. My parents and siblings did the same.
So she's making the choice to not get vaccinated because she doesn't believe "they" have the right to take away peoples choice to get vaccinated? Oh the irony.
Yes it is and I'm glad you chose to get vaccinated. It's still a choice as you've mentioned, no one lined you up against a wall and forced the vaccine on you. It's also my right and everyone else's right to criticize people who, in their opinion, make stupid choices. Calling out the unvaccinated as being stupid idiots is my right, as is pointing out that no one is being forced to get vaccinated.
Well if you ran a company that produced microchips would you allow employees to come and go in the facility without any restrictions or requirements such as wearing full body clean suits since even a tiny bit of dust could ruin your expensive manufacturing operation? Would mandating those clean suits for employees and firing anyone unwilling to wear them be taking away anyone's constitutionally protected rights or freedoms? They can choose not to work there if they don't want to wear the suit, just like anyone can choose not to work for a company or the government if they have mask or vaccine mandates.
There are lots of businesses that have requirements for their workers, like hair nets and face masks at food processing plants, hard hats in construction zones, even company required clothing/outfits/costumes that if not worn could be a firing offense. How often do you see a McDonalds employee behind the cash register in their street clothes?
Again, no one is being "forced" to get vaccinated just like no one is "forced" to wear the McDonalds employee costume because no one is forcing anyone to work in those fields or for those businesses or government that have mask, vaccine or company outfit mandates.
And "That" is NOT happening, there is no federal mandate for all Americans to get vaccinated. It's highly recommended and certain privately owned and operated businesses and some federal, State and local governments are requiring it of their employees, but it's the employees choice to keep working there or go find a new job if they don't want to follow company policy.
No ones rights have been thrown out the window, not mine nor yours. Please tell me of even one single example where a person is being forced to get vaccinated. Which person in America is being held down and vaccinated against their will? If you can't provide even one single example of what you're claiming, someone being forced against their will to get vaccinated where they have no choice in the matter, then apparently your claim is total bullshit.
That's easy....
1400 were fired just from the WA Dept of Transportation due to state mandates.... (It's why the highways haven't been plowed from the snow last night)
That's an easy one to answer
Well if it was so easy why haven't you been able to provide a single example of anyone "being forced to get vaccinated". You gave an example of employees who CHOSE to lose their jobs instead of getting vaccinated but you failed once again to give even one single example of anyone being FORCED to get vaccinated.
Those folks were given a CHOICE, get vaccinated or get fired, they CHOSE to get fired and thus did not have to get vaccinated. No one came to their home and held them down and vaccinated them against their will. So try try again, but the result will be the same.
Well one of the problems is you refer to society's rules (majority rules) when it suits your argument, and when it doesn't you go to the absolutist argument...No one tied him down... He has all the choice in the world when he chooses to do what you think he should and no choice when he doesn't...
A disingenuous argument is no argument at all... What's the difference society wise in having his ability to care for himself and his family taken away, or being lined up against the wall and shot? In the real world none at all... In your autocratic fantasy world, either way he chose to die...
You live with your autocratic ideals.... based upon fear and hate... Thank you for illustrating it...
I'm done, you can have the last word...
A huge fucking difference. When a job requires you to do something you feel uncomfortable with you can choose not to work there anymore and go find another way to care for yourself or your family. Its not as if that was the one and only job that person can perform and was born to it and if taken away would result in their demise.
I've listed dozens of things companies require of their workers that if they don't they get fired. If you refuse to wear safety gear like hard hats and protective eye wear while performing certain jobs, guess what, you get fired. Some jobs and businesses require employees to wear a uniform or get fired.
What the fuck are you talking about? There is nothing "autocratic" about a business or the government or a school requiring their employees or students to get vaccinated. This is a common safety measure we've lived with for nearly 150 years.
Your weak argument was 'done' the moment you typed it. You failed to prove anyone was actually being forced to get vaccinated as you claimed. You failed to show how businesses requiring safety protocols was "autocratic" in any way and avoided responding to the numerous examples of other safety measures businesses have been requiring of their employees basically ever since businesses were made legally responsible for their employees and customers welfare.
So in conclusion no one is being forced to vaccinate, it's my right to call anyone not getting vaccinated a stupid piece of selfish shit because while you're free to choose to get vaccinated or not no one is free from criticism for the choices they make, and nothing about the vaccine mandates are autocratic, authoritarian, communist or any other form of government that doesn't give their citizens a choice. If people are not being dragged out of their homes and forcibly vaccinated, which they clearly aren't, then your claims are total fantasy bullshit.
Agree to Disagree
Where do people get the notion that making vaccination a requirement for continued employment is autocratic rule? First of all, we are in a pandemic and rational minds recognize that failing to take actions to end it will hurt everyone. Suppliers need to supply, consumers need to consume. Second, the risk of side-effects from the vaccine does not even compare to the major downside of a COVID-19 infection. Third, there are all sorts of conditions imposed on employees that are largely gratuitous (e.g. dress codes) that do not compare to dealing with a pandemic. Has everyone forgotten the non-smoking policies that went into effect on a grand scale a few decades back?
In short: just get the damn shots and help both yourself and society move on.
The level of irrational thinking about vaccines really shows how quickly a herd mentality can infest millions of minds and cause them to devote energy to promote truly dumb, irresponsible choices.
From licking the backside of any random right wing conservative media 'think' tank website? It seems a common misconception among those who want to view a diverse secular America for all as a left wing autocracy that's supposedly taking away their guns, taking away their religious freedoms, taking away their right to discriminate against gays, women and minorities. They view progress as corruption, they see any government official trying to keep citizens safe with safety protocols and vaccine or mask requirements as the corrupt "establishment", they see some fantasy shadow government or "deep state" behind every corner and they fear its going to wipe out the last vestiges of their preferred white conservative Christian patriarchy that they were so used to running everything. After drowning oneself in such right wing conspiracy theorist sheep dip its easy to imagine any contrary ideological position as "autocratic".
That is what any rational person with more than half a brain would do, but then again, I doubt many of the stubborn anti-vaxxers would ever be accused of being rational or intelligent.
It kind of reminds me of when there was that mad cow disease scare a decade or so ago. I think those who are devoted listeners to right wing conservative radio and media that push these bullshit conspiracy theories about the vaccines are like the cows who unknowingly were being fed the ground up remains and infected brains of cows that had died from the disease then passing it on to the rest of their herd creating a never ending cycle of diseased brains.
Sadly, that's true on both sides of the argument.
Not entirely sure what you consider to be the 'other side' but I personally am mostly concerned with unvaccinated people who are medically suitable for vaccines but refuse to get them on 'principle' / stubborn bias or because of incorrect information.
The COVID vaccines can cause serious side effects, too. But that bit of information seems to be discounted. Serious side effects are rare but then serious complications from the COVID disease are also rare among children.
Another bit of misinformation that people are relying on is expectation that the COVID vaccine prevents infection and spread of the virus. That is NOT a scientifically valid expectation. Using a label of 'breakthrough infection' is intentionally misleading and fosters an erroneous public expectation.
The teacher's rant (in the seeded article) relied on scientifically irrational suppositions, untested speculation, and rather medieval attitudes. If a biology teacher does not understand how science works then why are they qualified to teach science?
Covid vaccines are exceptionally safe. Their benefits far outweigh the minuscule risks...
Schools are within their rights to require them!
The benefits of the COVID vaccines greatly outweigh the risks for the older population. But for the younger population the risks of the COVID vaccine are comparable to the risks of the COVID disease; severe side effects and severe COVID symptoms are both rare in the younger population.
Where do you get that from? That's like saying getting a vaccine is just as bad as getting covid.
Isn't that's what the data suggests in the younger population?
The published justification for vaccinating the younger population has been to control spread of the virus. That justification is based upon the younger population posing a risk to the older population and NOT on the virus posing a risk to the younger population.
The quasi-political justification has been to vaccinate children so they don't kill grandma.
Cite the data.
Controlling the spread requires vaccination of the entire population until herd immunity is effectively reached.
Is that not justification enough? Or maybe it's also so kids themselves do not get sick and spread the virus to others.
Finding data is difficult due to a publishing blackout. Here's one:
Cite the data that indicates herd immunity is achievable with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. At this point, herd immunity is a supposition that has not been validated with empirical facts.
Cite the data that empirically validates vaccinating children will prevent them from killing grandma.
Side effects are not contagious. Covid is.
How would you explain the scientific fact that fully vaccinated and boosted people contract Covid-19 and its variants? We're dealing with a virus that will constantly mutate. Whether we like it or not, the Covid-19 virus is here to stay in its many forms.
Instead of ignorant, fearful Americans attacking people on social media for not doing what THEY think "others" should do regarding vaccines, I want the USA and other free world countries to pressure the CCP, NIAID, and NIH to pay for the scourge they released upon our world that has caused the needless deaths of millions of innocent people.
By the scientific fact that vaccines are not 100% effective. The current vaccines have a general efficacy 95%. That means 5% of fully vaccinated people can still contract Covid. According to the CDC, a little over 191 million people in the US have been fully vaccinated. That's only 57.8% of the population. Not high enough to reach herd immunity.
Since the virus mutates into new variants as we have seen, then does it not make sense to make sure as many people as possible get vaccinated as soon as possible? Every unvaccinated person is just a walking laboratory for a new mutation to occur. Variants may reduce or negate the effectiveness of current vaccines. This is just common sense.
How about everyone just do their part and simply get vaccinated. Does that not sound like a simple, effective measure to protect oneself and possibly interrupt the chain of Covid transmission? Again, just common sense.
Then perhaps you should be careful when making certain claims.
That is what one would call an "adverse reaction" to a medication. Such occurrences are rare, but possible. Then there are cardiac (among other) complications after a covid infection too, for both adults and children.
Here you go. It's stated that, " For a vaccine with a claimed 95% efficacy, the required herd immunity level would be 63% to 76% ." We are not there yet. I would have expected the required immunity level needed to be higher. Regardless, do you not realize that herd immunity is important to protect the population from a virus and break the chain of transmission? Herd immunity is why we do not worry so much about measles, smallpox, or other viruses.
Here, from Harvard Medical . Children catch viruses, right? This includes covid, especially with the new variants. Therefore they act as carriers where the virus can be transmitted to anyone, including grandma. Even without empirical data, this is all just common sense Nerm. Get vaccinated to stop the virus. It's really quite simple. So I'm not sure why you seem opposed to that?
That's not what it means.
Then allow me to clarify. Fully vaccinated people have a 95% less risk of getting Covid than those who did not get vaccinated. Obviously vaccinated people can (and do) still contract Covid, as the risk is not reduced to 0.
Here's the link you provided in a form for lay people:
You have snipped out the speculative presentation of theoretical requirement for herd immunity to the COVID virus. Which is misleading.
Yet the provided link states quite clearly: "Do we really need a vaccine before a population can achieve herd immunity against COVID-19? The cautious answer is yes, but we need to be cognizant that even with the vaccine, we probably will never reach herd immunity."
The article presents speculation that herd immunity for the COVID virus is not achievable. The article does present the theoretical speculation, as you provided, but goes on to explain that empirically observed waning immunity and reinfection works against achieving the theoretical requirements for herd immunity. And the article does not address new variants being introduced into the United States.
So, the linked article is clearly stating the opposite of what you have implied. The CDC article is stating that herd immunity against the COVID virus is unlikely. Therefore; the vaccines are not expected to end the pandemic.
Which means we are going to have to learn to deal with it the same way we deal with the common cold year round and the Flu twice a year... Something we were ridiculed for saying 18 months ago...
The CDC was expecting waning immunity and reinfection a year ago during the initial stages of deploying vaccines. Which explains why the CDC has continued to promote mitigation efforts of masking and social distancing.
The CDC was speculating that achieving herd immunity was unlikely before the vaccination effort began. The CDC hasn't expected vaccines to end the pandemic.
Good. The article by Harvard Medical does cite empirical test results which indicates children can host a viral load comparable to adults; therefore, transmission by children would be comparable to adults. So, the speculation that children can kill grandma as readily as any infected adult appears to be warranted.
Science doesn't deal in common sense. A logical conclusion or a common sense conclusion is nothing more than scientifically baseless speculation until the conclusion can be empirically tested. Without empirical testing, common sense is, at most, anecdotal evidence and has little value in scientific endeavors.
Empirical tests have demonstrated that the COVID virus can be transmitted from humans to dogs and cats (common pets) and cause infection in dogs and cats. Common sense would suggest that infected dogs and cats can transmit the virus to humans; the jump from animals to humans is the scientific speculation for the cause of the pandemic. But the paucity of empirical testing means that the common sense conclusion is anecdotal, at best. Scientific endeavors can relegate common sense to scientifically baseless speculation by simply failing to perform empirical testing.
You know that, I know that, but we were amongst the few that were paying attention while everyone else was reacting to the talking heads spewing their fear mongering propaganda... Also note, the CDC isn't running this, Big Pharma is... (and they hated the fixed price contracts that Trump negotiated for the vaccines, so did the democrats)
Yes. But now it's becoming glaringly obvious that the expectation of ending the pandemic with vaccination isn't going to succeed.
The administrative functions of government have been doing exactly what they are intended to do. Administrators establish and implement plans to achieve a stated goal. That's why leadership is necessary; leadership must state the goals. Left to their own devices, without that leadership, administrators will set goals that can be achieved through planning.
The administrative goal has been to supply, deliver, and administer doses of vaccine. And that administrative goal cannot be accomplished until everyone has been vaccinated. But that administrative success doesn't really do anything to provide leadership for ending the pandemic.
A vacuum of leadership always favors opportunists. Opportunists seize upon the merits of tactical administrative plans for their own benefit. But opportunists contribute nothing toward stating strategic goals that are necessary to provide leadership for administrative functions.
A vacuum of leadership means a political response will always suck.
Vaccines only work for the vaccinated...
I think I got it about a month ago. I have been vaxed and boostered so the effects were minimal. Had I not been vaxed/boosted, I most likely would have become a statistic.
That circular logic is incomplete. 'Vaccines only work for the vaccinated when they work'.
Waning immunity and infections among the vaccinated empirically demonstrate that vaccines don't always work for the vaccinated.
Circular logic can be applied to any prophylactic or treatment method. The prophylactic only works for those who use the prophylactic. But that circular logic completely ignores that the prophylactic doesn't always work.
Masks only work for those who wear masks ... when the mask works. And when the mask doesn't work there's always a demand for a better mask. When the vaccines don't work there's a demand for boosters.
A complete examination of logic concludes that the current vaccines are all about ninety percent effective for the vaccinated and are exactly zero percent effective for the unvaccinated...
How is it that you always stand against science, no matter the topic?
It's good you got vaxxed. I did too and had very minimal side effects. Because of vaccines, masks, distancing, ect., I have not been sick once these last couple years. Not even a cold. Protective measures work.
I don't stand against science. But I do understand the limitations of science which political discussion ignores.
Scientific knowledge is not based upon logic or common sense. Scientific knowledge is confined to only empirically observed and empirically validated evidence.
Scientifically, 2+2=4 is conjecture and speculation until it has been empirically tested.
No, that is not the case.
Every possible prediction of a scientific theory does NOT have to be empirically tested to be confidently considered true (i.e. NOT considered speculation). However, if a prediction were to fail, that would discredit the theory and force rework.
Now, from a different perspective, arithmetic is not a scientific theory; it is a formal system. And the integrity of this formal system is supported by formal proofs. Thus we need not empirically test 2 + 2 = 4 or 3,421 + 279 = 3,700 or any of the other infinite possible 'predictions' of numbers and arithmetic operations.
A logical conclusion is scientifically a speculation and conjecture. The logic may be impeccable and the logical conclusion sound. However, the logical conclusion cannot become a scientific fact until the conclusion is empirically tested and validated.
Mathematics is a system utilizing formal logic. No matter how impeccable the logic, a mathematically derived conclusion remains scientific conjecture and speculation until the conclusion has been empirically tested and validated. A mathematically derived conclusion is not a scientific fact without empirical testing.
All scientific knowledge is empirical. Logical conclusions are not scientific knowledge. Mathematically derived conclusions are not scientific knowledge. Only empirical observation, testing, and validation can produce scientific knowledge.
The scientific method utilizes logic and mathematical conclusions to speculate. But the purpose of the scientific method is to produce scientific facts and scientific knowledge through empirical testing of speculation.
Wrong again and for the same reason as I described.
Make up you mind, are we speaking of speculation or fact? A scientific fact is indeed necessarily verified before being deemed as such.
Now, moving the goal posts back to where you started, you stated that until verification takes place, a prediction of a scientific theory (even though you used arithmetic as your example) was mere speculation. Again, wrong.
Wrong again. The statement 2+2=4 is not speculation. It is a proven truth.
Well now you seem to be agreeing with my second point which is that arithmetic is a formal system and you using an arithmetic equation as an example of scientific speculation was wrong. (Really silly too.)
Sure, when engaging in speculation, science typically has a mathematical, scientific and logical foundation. But that in no way supports your claim that notions in science are necessarily speculation until verified. Again, as I noted, a prediction of a bona fide theory of empirical science is NOT speculation even if never verified. That is the beauty of well-founded scientific theories such as Relativity, they provide a patter of considered truth and do not require that every possible prediction (every possible permutation) be empirically tested to rise above the level of speculation.
Nerm, just stop.
My comment was that a logical conclusion is scientific speculation. By ignoring that context, you're moving the goalposts.
Scientific facts are a very narrowly defined and specific subset of facts. Logical conclusions may be logically true but remain scientific speculation until empirically tested and validated.
Only logically true. Without empirical testing and validation the logical truth of 2+2=4 cannot be considered a scientific truth.
Scientific facts and knowledge are entirely empirical. Scientific facts and knowledge are a very narrowly defined and specific subset of facts and knowledge.
Einstein's GTR was purely speculative. That's why there has been so much effort within the scientific community to empirically test and validate Einstein's GTR. Einstein's GTR was not scientific knowledge until it was empirically tested and validated. And, at present, not all of Einstein's GTR has been empirically tested and validated, so portions remain scientific conjecture and speculation.
Ignoring the very specific requirements of science only fosters misleading and irrational understanding of what science does. Ignoring the very specific requirements of science promotes science illiteracy.
Your context was 2+2=4 so do not play this game. And the general claim that a logical conclusion is scientific speculation is false. If the logical conclusion is a prediction of a theory of empirical science it is not speculation. Denying this is ridiculous.
Already explained the concept of prediction and formal systems. Clearly you are just going to blindly repeat your claims regardless of the rebuttal. You will remain wrong.
All theories start off as speculation and then hypotheses. A theory is not such until it has been verified. It was verification that enabled Einstein's theories to be considered such. So when one speaks of Einstein's Theory of General Relativity one is speaking of the actual verified theory.
Amazing that you go back in time prior to when a theory is deemed as such and then deem the verified theory as speculation. Is there no end to the games you will attempt to play?
I hope your 'baffle-with-bullshit' game is not fooling people. I want people to be smarter about science, not the inverse.
Got my booster yesterday but don't plan on slacking off. Will still mask in public and stay away from the public as much as possible.
About 25 minutes ago you said you got it today.
Yep, right here..
{chuckle}
A good example that provides some insight into why a science teacher believes they can verbally abuse 10th graders over something 10th graders can't control.
When science is used as justification or excuse, a rational understanding of science becomes a hindrance. Science is only a means to achieve a political end.
Quite the non sequitur.
You have shown that one can quote anything and then go on and make a point that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the quote.
I wish the real world of academic science actually worked that way....
It is appropriate to acknowledge the topic of the seed occasionally.
Ignoring the topic of the seed would be akin to ignoring the importance of the scientific method in acquiring scientific knowledge. And ignoring the role of experimentation in the scientific method.
Then do so without REPLYing to a comment. Just write a main thread comment and acknowledge the topic all that you wish.
When you REPLY to a comment, especially if you quote it, that suggests you have something to say about that which you quoted.
Did you miss it? What I quoted was obfuscating exposition about science that segued into a rant that had nothing to do with science. The exposition about science was only a means for directing abuse towards me.
Apparently that's what the science teacher did to 10th graders, too. You provided a good example that provides some insight into why a science teacher believes they can verbally abuse 10th graders over something 10th graders can't control.
Not sure what to make of your latest nonsense so I will simply state again:
I want people to be smarter about science, not the inverse.
Then do not turn science into something other than what it is. All science is strictly empirical and acquires knowledge empirically using the scientific method. Science is not philosophy. Science is not theology. Science is not a system of formal logic.
The role of theoretical science is to guess. No matter how exquisitely refined that guess may be, it is still a guess. And scientific knowledge is not guesswork. Scientific knowledge explains reality by empirically testing reality. Without an empirical test, science does not know.
Science may use all sorts of convoluted guesswork to garner support for an experimental program. But the underlying justification is to replace the guesswork with direct empirical observation of reality and direct empirical testing of reality. That's why rovers are roaming about aimlessly on Mars; to acquire knowledge by direct empirical observation and empirical experimentation.
Scientific knowledge is a narrowly defined and specific subset of knowledge.
Nerm, your typical game when you place yourself in an embarrassing situation is to finally make true statements and pretend your interlocutor has claimed the opposite.
My patience for this pathetic tactic is gone.
I have been making true statements all along. My last comment @3.3.43 only summarized what I've said in previous comments.
And you really have claimed the opposite.
You must be either very young and/or went to an elite school district, because the varicella (chickenpox) vaccine wasn't available in the US until the early 1980s. I cannot find any information stating that it was administered in public or private schools at any time. The same applies to smallpox, measles, mumps, tetanus, etc. All of these vaccines and boosters have been given in physicians' offices, not schools.
In my paramedic days the ER staff would sew me up, set my bones and vaccinate me when needed. No records needed.
Then I'd get back out on the street.
And your memory is faulty when it comes to the varicella vaxx. That didn't come out until the mid 90's at the earliest. My son was 7 months old in 1995 and got a severe case of chickenpox. The vaccine came out a year later.
And that bit of snarkiness was uncalled from one who claims it's more important to be nice.
I was given the MMR right before I started 1st grade...and it was in the school cafeteria in approx 1967.
Your search engine you're using needs a tune-up
I had chicken pox in 1960 but was vaccinated for everything else in the 60's and I never got those diseases. Everyone got a smallpox vaccine in first grade then we received multiple Polio vaccines plus MMR in school. I also got vaccinated at the doctor's office for some stuff. I remember having to produce vaccine records to go on trips and to travel abroad. My summer camps even required everyone be vaccinated...
I got a smallpox vaxx in the doctor's office when I was 5. I remember the doctor jabbing me multiple times with a needle and it formed a scab. When the scab fell off I had a permanent scar
We all had those plastic covers on ours.
And, I never have gotten Small Pox, yet...
The varicella vaccine was added to the childhood immunization schedule in 1995; however, it was commercially available in the USA in the 1980s.
I hope you find the above scientific facts helpful.
Well apparently the military health care system hadn't added varicella to the list of infant/ childhood immunizations until 1996. And don't argue with me. I'm the one who had the 7 month old in 1995 and I was the one wearing the uniform. [Deleted]
After doing more research, I now understand the disconnect. In 1967, I was in high school, applying to colleges, had a part-time job and a driver's license while you were learning how to read. The MMR that you received in 1st grade didn't exist when I was in 1st grade or even grammar school. No worries!
I use DuckDuckGo, which is highly reliable and secure.
If you, or anyone else, wish to learn more about the history of vaccines, this link from Children's Hospital of Philadelphia is very informative:
[delete]
In my day, mothers would set up play dates with kids who had the CP. That way, you got it at a young age and were done with it. I must have played with 20 kids and still didn't get it. I was in college and finally got it from my roommate's four year old. I was carrying a double load and barely passed that quarter.
Good for you because if you had CP you might see Shingles later in life. Bad for you that you eventually got it. I had CP as an infant.
Because it's a free country, and contrary to popular idiotic hysteria, unvaccinated people are no danger to anybody but themselves.
They also beat you if you misbehaved and cut the boys' hair if it touched their collar. Luckily, we have laws now.
You obviously have no idea of how covid goes from one person to the next.
You obviously have not looked at the data.
Fauci's, CDC's, and NIH's bureaucratic scare tactics to control the public no longer work.
I agree. But they can't keep Marxist control over us if they don't issue irrational, unscientific mandates.
Federal/state political and medical bureaucrats are still causing people to panic, and now it's over the omicron variant that has the equivalent symptoms of the common cold and/or mild flu. It's up to each of us to do our own research and take appropriate precautions when/if necessary.
... is an oxymoron. Marxist control, so to speak, would be the people (the workers, the proletariat) democratically controlling an industrial economy.
I would suggest 'authoritarian control' for the concept you are describing.
Omicron is seen as a significant contributor to hospitalization.
The variant is indeed less severe than Delta but it is far more infectious (thus many more cases) and can (and does) lead to hospitalization (although the level is about 60% of that required by Delta).
Thus it makes sense to view Omicron as not nearly as dangerous to one's health as Delta, but arguably putting more stress on our medical resources (and economy and sociological worries) than Delta.
Regardless of the debate nuances, Omicron is something that is in everyone's best interest to diminish. We should encourage everyone who can to get fully vaccinated.
The unvaxed should keep their butts home and do only home deliveries for things they need. I am sick to death of the bs "My body, my choice." mantra. My body also has the right to not be infected by selfish aholes.
Works both ways..........................
Then I would suggest you keep your body away from selfish aholes, much like the unvaxxed are doing...
[✘]
Most folk in my neck of the woods never masked and never vaccinated.
Most rednecks in my neck of the woods voted for Trump. Foolish folk.
I avoid most folk in my neck of the woods where covid rates are spiking.
What if those people have natural immunity? According to "the science", they do not need to be vaccinated. What if a woman is pregnant? There haven't been enough peer-reviewed studies to prove that the fetus would not be harmed.
Do you feel the same about pro-choice advocates? That, too, is a mantra.
If someone has natural immunity or if there is a medical reason to not get vaccinated then of course those are exceptions. I certainly can understand a pregnant woman's fetal concerns.
Note also that natural immunity is considered inferior to fully vaccinated + booster. So that should be a consideration.
Common sense. Let's set aside the special cases now and focus on the vast majority of unvaccinated people with no medical reason to not get vaccinated. The empirical data shows that it is far better for them (and for society) to get vaccinated. They should just do it. We should all encourage them to do so and not enable them to continue to irrationally justify not doing so by providing or supporting their excuses.
Considering that the unvaxed count for the majority in hospitals, they are not doing a very good job of staying away from other people. Bravo Mike.
Like who? How would you determine that?
No, that’s not the science. Every scientific recommendation I have seen is that even if you had Covid and recovered - and therefore have antibodies - you are still much better protected against reinfection (which does happen) by getting vaccinated. Vaccines are recommended even for people who had Covid already.
They still recommend vaccines.
New CDC Data: COVID-19 Vaccination Safe for Pregnant People
I don’t know how many studies would be “enough” for you, but if you have evidence of fetuses being harmed by vaccines, by all means present it.
By having a blood titer done. They can also be done for our pets.
Well, of course, but as I said, it's not always necessary. It actually depends on how recent the infection occurred.
They ... the CDC, NIH, Fauci/Collins, etc ... misled us numerous times. IMO, a pregnant woman shouldn't believe them, but should seek the advice of her own OBGYN and weigh the risks of taking any medications during her pregnancy.
That's not bad advice, but the obgyn is not doing research on the virus themselves. So guess where they will turn for information to generate that advice? Probably the CDC, NIH, Fauci/Collins, etc.
In the meantime, it's irresponsible to spread fears of miscarriage or other fetal damage as a result of Covid vaccines without actual evidence of it.
V-safe COVID-19 Vaccine Pregnancy Registry
Thank you.
I don't know that as a fact, but perhaps you do.
I agree. It's also irresponsible for government agencies to tell pregnant women that it's perfectly fine to take a series of Covid vaccines but then advise that they shouldn't take OTC medications to alleviate symptoms of the common cold.
There's nothing wrong with Americans making their own educated decisions regarding their personal health.
Then employ a little common sense. An obgyn is a clinician - meaning they see patients all day long. They have neither the time nor the facilities and resources to do independent research on their own. Ergo, they get their information from someone else.
It's not irresponsible. Different medications have different effects. It would be irresponsible to just make some blanket statement that pregnant women should take no medications at all or to imply the same. Current real-world data shows that Covid vaccines are totally safe for pregnant women and there is no indication that they harm the fetus either. I have already linked you to such data.
You know what's really bad for a fetus or a baby? A mom who has to be both pregnant and also be sick from Covid. Or a mom who has died from Covid or suffered major organ damage from the virus. You know how we avoid those scenarios? Vaccines.
Again, "educated" how? By employing an irrational fear of Covid vaccines? By watching cable news? Or by looking at the analysis of actual data collected by actual infectious disease experts? And if you can't do that, at least ask a doctor who has.
Agreed, that matches my research.
WOW, the amount of bullshit I see on this blog is amazing! IF you don't want to get vaccinated stay at home, don't endanger the rest of us. Keep you f%^&in kids at home also. When you and/or you family gets sick with covid, KEEP your ass at home and die! Medical facilities are for those that want or need help. Your volunteering to be a lab rat for covid is your own problem. If you feel that your free-dumb means you don't have to obey society's rules then feel free to run that red light, rob that bank if you need money. You will find that your supposed free-dumb is not going to keep you out of jail. So inconclusion, if you refuse the vaccine and get sick, PLEASE stay at home to die and "don't be a drain on manpower or resources."
Since when is getting a covid shot one of society's rules? evidently in your opinion we are living in two different societies aren't we?
It has been for a long fucking time.
One of the earliest diseases for which we developed a kind of vaccine was Smallpox. George Washington required that his troops be vaccinated against it.
Gen. George Washington Ordered Smallpox Inoculations for All Troops
In 1809, the state of Massachusetts empowered local health boards to require inoculation against smallpox. By the end of the 19th century, 13 states required smallpox vaccinations for children going to school and 11 states required it of adults.
And by the way, the latest variant of Covid - Omicron - is more contagious than smallpox.
Interesting smallpox info, but it doesn't align with my decades as a student and educator. The only times that I "had" to get a smallpox vaccine was when I traveled to Mexico, Central America, South America. etc.
Omicron's symptoms present as those of the common cold or allergies - sniffles, coughing, etc. It's an upper respiratory inflammation in contrast to the more deadly variants that attacked the lower portions of our lungs.
Yet, the current administration, Fauci, the CDC, and many state leaders refuse to "follow the science" and want to (AGAIN) shut down businesses, schools, and our day-to-day life.
Some on the left are again talking about voting "equity" issues for 2022 and 2024. If successful, this will lead to a repeat of 2020's mandatory universal mail-in only voting.
So not all of them then... (there were 45 states in 1900 so 32 states didn't require it) So much for societal rules...
Rarely, smallpox has spread through the air in enclosed settings , such as a building (airborne route). Generally it is spread by direct contact...
Smallpox can be spread by humans only... Scientists have no evidence that smallpox can be spread by insects or animals...
Last year the Canadian Government purchased 70,000 doses of Smallpox vaccine to update their strategic reserve why? cause it is not a required vaccine... neither is it in the US who also maintains a strategic reserve as does most nations on the planet...
Omicron is as virulent as the common cold... not news...
Got anything else?
Colds don’t result in death or long term organ damage. Yesterday 99 Americans died from Covid. Yeah, that sound like something we should equate to a cold.
You asked a question and got an answer. It’s your problem if you don’t like it.
Is that all you got?
An incorrect answer, but yes an answer... and I probably have a lot more if you choose to post more incorrect answers...
Moving goalposts? where did the goalposts move? not with my answer... {chuckle} you said at the turn of the century that it was mandatory society wide and cited 13 states with laws... well at the turn of the century there were a heck of a lot more states making up our society than just 13... Just the facts... you were wrong...
No moving goalposts...
Support that claim if you can.
When you wanted to know about society requiring vaccinations, I told you, and then you wanted to pretend those facts didn’t matter.
ok, one more time...
YOU said...
I said...
I'll post a link....
Total number of US states*, at the end of each year, since the Declaration of Independence in 1776
(just float your cursor over the line to 1899 or 1900 (end of the 19th century) and see the answer)
45 States, minus the 13 states with smallpox vax mandates, leaves 32 states without smallpox vax mandates...
I didn't pretend the fact of 13 states with mandates didn't matter I proved that 32 more states without also have to be included when you talk whole society... I directly addressed your claim...
And your claim is wrong...Factually and Facially.... you want it in percentages? 28% of the states (society) had vax mandates and 72% didn't...
And many today still don't.... There is no claim you can make to rehabilitate your statement... There was no moving goalposts, just a plain factual disproval of a bold facedly incorrect statement...
What is ridiculous? Having to go to this length to explain the basic mathematics of it... And you claiming I ignored your claim...
It's also pretty hilarious if you ask me..
Your review is disingenuous and incomplete. What I said came in response to you saying this:
So I told you “since when” - since the late 18th century, and that rule was imposed by the “Father of Our Country.” It started in what passed for the military in those days, but in the following decades, the rule spread even deeper and more broadly into society.
I stopped my history lesson at the end of the 19th century, but I think most adults know that in the 20th century, every state in America has vaccine requirements for their public schools. Every branch of the military, and many employers require vaccinations for all sorts of diseases. This “rule” has been well entrenched in our society for generations now.
I am confident that you know all that but you refuse to acknowledge it, and instead you inquire “since when” as if you didn’t already know the answer.
Now there is the shifting goal post...
{chuckle} well played..
Don't like society's rules, then move to another country. Siberia is lovely this time of the year.
Good suggestion, I think there is a bonus in it for you, they have a government there that is much more to your liking as well...
Have a nice trip!
[delete]
We have yet to see data that suggests Omicron does, either. It is clearly much less severe a disease than the original virus.
Which is 30% less than died from the flu on an average day in 2017.
Perhaps you misunderstood my comment 4.1.2. I solely focused on the Omicron variant, not Covid-19's totality. Huge difference.
[✘]
I received my booster shot today. Have no problems with future booster shots.
They will likely become necessary due to anti social anti science anti vaxers.
You prefer Putin's government, not me. But I will give Russia this. They have fabulous vodka and hats.
well that makes two of us, I prefer Thomas Jefferson's government myself... and wish you did as well...
What empirical evidence has been provided to validate the idea that the unvaccinated should be ostracized?
75 pct of COVID fatalities have been in the population aged 65 and older. COVID deaths in the population between age 55 and 64 account for another 15 pct of the total. 90 pct of COVID deaths have occurred in the population aged 55 and older. Check the data yourself:
The empirical data shows that the priority should be to vaccinate people aged 55 and older since that is where 90 pct of COVID deaths have occurred. COVID morbidity among school age children suggest that COVID poses a much smaller risk than other causes of death.
What is dumb is promoting a scientifically irrational response to the viral coronavirus pandemic. The empirical data does not support or validate the proposed political response.
Those are foolish stats. It is the unvaccinated who are filling hospital beads.
I understand the teacher’s frustration, but teachers need to try to stay focused on just teaching the curriculum and not getting into debates with students on outside matters like this.
Unless this woman is a health teacher or nurse she should not even be discussing vaccination status with her students. She certainly shouldn’t be telling kids they are killing people.
There is another problem that hasn't been mentioned in the comments and that is the shortage of nurses and other healthcare workers in WA and throughout the US. The consequence of having to deal with the unvaccinated, hours, treatment, and pay is creating the perfect storm.
My great-niece is an RN and she quit some months back for the reasons listed above and found a job in the medical field with better pay, better hours, and not being exposed to COVID patients.
Now that I can agree with, last year when the wife was in the hospital for pnuemonia, the staffing was REAL short, they had nursing students doing the patient care rather than aides, LPN's were almost non-existant, RN's were doing palliative care...
What we were told is that the older experienced RN's & LPN's decided to retire right at the beginning, then the next level of experience took the opportunity to seek employment in other locations that didn't have the risk factor associated with hospitals... My Doctors office has had such a great turnover in his office staff that he cannot open up to patients and has to do everything over the phone... And the ones he can find are young, inexperienced, and have directly told him if he does open for in person visits they will quit... He would be out of business if he opens up..
That's a huge part of what is driving the medical emergency and hospitals are strapped.... It's definitely been an upheaval in the medical care industry who wasn't even beginning to be prepared for this....
My wife says that the old adage is true, if there is one place to go to catch a disease it's the hospital, they have them all there... She was an LPN for 20 years in geriatrics...
So we have the unvaccinated overwhelming the hospitals which of course has dramatic consequences such as health care workers burning out and quitting, ICU beds used by the dumbasses that refused to be vaccinated leaving many that are ill with other than COVID out on a limb.
Well done to the unvaccinated in your ignorance you are adding more strife to an already deadly pandemic.
So what do you do? boot them out? refuse services? save the hospitals for those that don't have covid?
The best solution is for the unvaccinated to wake up and get the vaccine. It's free, with excellent protection, saves the hospital space for those that really need it it will help slow down the spread of the virus.
It's not brain surgery and it's well past the time for the unvaccinated to get their heads out of their ass and act like they actually care about their fellow citizens or they can keep being hospitalized end up in the ICU and die.
In a perfect submissive groupthink world yes.. Unfortunately, that is not reality... We are individuals in this world and for whatever reason can choose any way we wish...
So you have an opinion on the unvaxxed, ok, so do I... probably not that far apart either... But even so, they have rights and we cannot take those away without losing our own...
If you have a way to do that without losing our rights in the process, I'm all ears...
We can argue back and forth all day long without resolving a thing, but the one constant is we all have the right to choose, we deny theirs we lose ours... We don't have to like it, but it is just the way it has to be if we are to call ourselves a free nation...
Anything else is abhorrent to me... what about you?
Getting the vaccine is not submissive or groupthink, it is an intelligent, responsible act unless one has medical reasons to the contrary. Why do you spend your time providing excuses for people to NOT get vaccinated instead of encouraging people to do what is best for their own health and for the health of others (and this includes economic health)?
I'm not providing excuses, I'm standing up for their in-a-lienable rights... I'll make it simple for you.... If they do not have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies, that society has rights beyond their own, then women do not have said rights to choice either and society CAN impose their will upon them...
The issue is body sovereignty and the right of the individual to decide what happens to it... It IS about choice... if the unvaxxed don't have a right to choose what happens to their bodies, then neither do women...
Do you get it now?
You take the right away from one on one issue you take it away from EVERYONE on all issues... If the government has the right to mandate vaccines to people who don't want them, then the government has the right to mandate ANYTHING UPON ANYONE...
It has always been about the right to be free for me...
Yes, they can currently choose to kill themselves and help keep the pandemic alive and moving through the country, a brilliant selfish choice for those that really don't care about America, but only themselves.
With American citizenship comes responsibility, they, the anti-vaxxers have no idea what responsibility is nor what is best for the country and their fellow citizens, they are only thinking of themselves.
I'm really sick and tired of hearing this same old refrain of losing their rights. Do they have the right to break existing laws, those laws take away some of their freedoms. If they were drafted they would be losing rights, the examples are endless and their excuses are just as endless and really don't carry any water.
The longer the pandemic lasts the more deaths, economic devastation, mental problems, drug use but hey, we have our rights, fuck everybody else and the country as a whole.
They may want to revisit JFK's words, ''Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country''.
We have 39% of the US population that are not fully vaccinated. An unvaccinated person is 14 times more likely to die from COVID-19. People continuing to get sick clog hospitals, encourage actions such as requiring vaccines in businesses and ultimately continue the psychological pressure that is bad for the economy.
If people were simply encouraging people to get the vaccines and NEVER offering excuses to them for not getting them then we would see more vaccinated people. Enabling the stupidly stubborn (the unvaccinated who have no medical reason to not get vaccinated but stubbornly will not do it) is irresponsible. There are plenty of things we cannot do in civil society, plenty of rules imposed on employees. Fighting this one incredibly responsible move to have a safe, healthy vaccinated workforce is no grand fight for principle ... it is a single freedom among many that are naturally curtailed by civil society.
People should get vaccinated. Now.
Yes they can choose to potentially kill themselves by not getting vaxxed, but some of the information coming out says getting vaxxed only lowers the risk it doesn't eliminate it... whether it is selfish or not is opinion and I'm not dealing with opinions anymore..
Well there are two things an individual coming into this world in the US is not responsible for once they reach the age of maturity, (16) Being born and being a US citizen.... Before the age of maturity the parents are responsible...
So what is responsibility? in essence it is a choice... That's right a choice... A choice to do the right thing in the situation at hand given the persons individual personal beliefs... So yes everyone taking responsibility for themselves is thinking for themselves...
Rights, Laws, we choose to live under the laws, altogether too many choose not to.... It is their right to choose either way as long as they accept the consequences of such choice... Laws don't take away freedoms, laws limit freedoms by consent... Being drafted? Uncle Sam wants you whether you want Uncle Sam or not... that is also an individual choice, you CAN choose to go and become temporary property of the government or you can refuse to, and become the property of the government in a different scenario... It is still an individual choice.... they wouldn't be losing rights they would be choosing to have those rights summitted to supercision by law, the rights still exist but are modified by agreement...
As far as JFK? I was a door knocker for Jack back in the day I was a budding democrat, yep "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" Very inspiring words... do you realize the individual choice that encompasses? Jack Kennedy was a Libertarian back when the democrat party allowed libertarians...
Kennedy was asking the young to stand up and choose freedom by service, not give up freedom for service...
It is always about individual freedoms and choices everything in this nation is... The constitution frees the citizen, it does not restrict the citizen...
I believe if they revisit JFK's world you would find that the government would have one hell of a revolution on it's hands...
In your opinion...
Of course it is my opinion, what else could it be?
Regardless, the fact that you disagree and make excuses is simply an enabler for those who stubbornly refuse to get vaccinated. Counterproductive in many dimensions.
No one that I'm aware of ever said it eliminated the risk. Since your not dealing with opinions anymore that will eliminate the vast majority of your post.
Which has nothing to do with this discussion.
What does this have to do with the discussion?
Of course, they have the right to choose and they also have to accept the consequences. Employers have rules, don't abide by those rules you are terminated the same goes for mandates. Refuse the companies vaccine mandate and you will be terminated, yes it's a choice with consequences.
He was asking them to serve their country and nothing about giving up any freedoms.
That is your opinion and I don't deal in opinions anymore.
It seems like all you guys want to do is argue...
Argue with yourself..
And all you want to do is argue, so argue with yourself...
Actually, all I did was point out that your comment re dead children was false, if you can't defend your comments you shouldn't make them.
Yes, and NYC is currently experiencing a huge surge in pediatric Covid hospitalizations even as these clueless ninnys on this seed are still spreading the falsehood the children are not at risk. Two thousand Americans die daily and nearly all of those were unvaccinated. What explains these nitwits still being so cavalier?
My point is that we should all be encouraging people to get vaccinated, not enabling them to continue with their irresponsible views by making / defending excuses.
Yes, of course, freedom is critical. But sometimes instead of fighting for freedom in the abstract with token gestures it is better to just address an immediate and critically important problem. There is plenty of time to continue the freedom mantra.
Just get vaccinated (if medically possible).
You getting your threads confused? where in this thread was dead children brought up? I thought we were discussing the loss of nursing personnel?
[Deleted]
[Deleted]
Not getting anything confused, the comments on this article regarding your false statement was pointed out by me, and rather than admit your comment was false you went on the strawman campaign and how the children had underlying conditions so there ya go.
The comments directly above pointed out once again it was nothing but opinion which you said you will no longer deal in even though the vast majority of your comment was nothing but your opinion. So I don't have anything mixed up and would suggest to you that if you going to post something that is false it will be called out as such.
This was your last comment to me before this one.
I guess if you consider having your false comments pointed out or challenging your opinion arguing, then so be it.
Went in yesterday to get the booster. Will still be masking, social distancing and washing hands.
Well of course, you are a rational adult.
Well, the Wife and I go in tomorrow and get ours, what does that make us? {chuckle}
Hypocritical?
Conflicted?
Of course it couldn't possibly be that I'm a rational adult... {chuckle} no bias there at all....
If you need me to explain my answer, let me know.