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After Supreme Court affirmative action ruling, scholarships targeted

  
Via:  Texan1211  •  11 months ago  •  346 comments

By:   USA TODAY

After Supreme Court affirmative action ruling, scholarships targeted
In some states, bans on race-conscious admissions also may be applied to financial aid set aside for students of color, which could have wide impact.

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S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Alia WongUSA TODAY

Corrections & Clarifications: This article was revised on July 7, 2023, to clarify that Walter M. Kimbrough is no longer the president of Dillard University.

The Supreme Court's decision last week banning affirmative action in college admissions says nothing about scholarships, but aid tied to students' race is already off the table at several large universities.

In Missouri, the attorney general directed all colleges to "immediately" stop considering race in scholarships, and in Kentucky, the flagship university's president suggested the institution should do the same. Even in purple Wisconsin, the assembly's Republican speaker alluded to forthcoming legislation that would ban race-conscious financial aid.

Advocates say these scholarships are one of the few levers colleges have left to be proactive about enrolling students of color now that they can no longer consider race as one of many factors in admissions. That's especially true as institutions in some states also roll back diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) programs - and as young people nationwide question the worth of taking on student loan debt.

"The assault on affirmative action was simply the foundation to go after everything," tweeted Walter M. Kimbrough, former president of Dillard University in Louisiana. "Affirmative action bans won't have the reach that ending these scholarship programs will."

Race largely has been a factor in admissions only at the nation's most selective, elite universities. Scholarships that consider students' race or ethnicity are widely available.

A divide only growing:The college-going gap between Black and white Americans was always bad. It's getting worse.

Shortly after the court issued its ruling, Andrew Bailey, Missouri's Republican attorney general, sent a letter to all the state's colleges, public and private, ordering them to implement the decisions "immediately."

"All Missouri programs that make admitting decisions by disfavoring individuals based on race - not just college admissions, but also scholarships, employment, law reviews, etc. - must immediately adopt race-blind standards," he wrote.

The University of Missouri system, which doesn't practice affirmative action in admissions and is predominantly white, has at least until recently offered scholarships that considered race as one of many factors. In response to the letter, it stated: "Those practices will be discontinued, and we will abide by the new Supreme Court ruling concerning legal standards that applies to race-based admissions and race-based scholarships."

Last year, 5.5% of MU's students were Black and 5.3% were Hispanic. Fewer than 3% identified as Asian. Just 5% of the university's total spending on scholarships last year went toward aid for people of color.

Similar developments are brewing in Kentucky.

"We are still reviewing the details of the ruling, but, based on our initial understanding, it appears that the court has restricted the consideration of race with respect to admissions and scholarships," Eli Capilouto, the University of Kentucky's president, said last Thursday.

Also on Thursday, Robin Vos, the Republican speaker of Wisconsin's state assembly, indicated he'd work to abolish such scholarships in his state. Vos was responding to a tweet arguing numerous higher education aid programs in the state amount to discrimination under the court's ruling. The tweeter, an attorney and alumnus of the conservative Christian Hillsdale College, pointed to grants earmarked for Black American students, American Indian students, and students of Hispanic or certain Southeast Asian descents.

"We are reviewing the decision and will introduce legislation to correct the discriminatory laws on the books and pass repeals in the fall," Vos tweeted Thursday afternoon, also retweeting a user claiming Ivy League colleges "hate rural whites."

This "apparent push to end minority scholarships is thinly veiled white "revanchism," wrote MSNBC blogger Ja'han Jones.

After the ruling, Ed Blum, the architect of the cases challenging Harvard's and the University of North Carolina's affirmative action programs, said, "Virtually all race-exclusive scholarships were already illegal as I understand the law. But whatever confusion there may have been before the (Students for Fair Admissions) ruling, it is correct that race-exclusive fellowships, scholarships, and general educational programs must end."

Henock Solomon, 26, is a rising third-year law student at the University of Colorado Boulder. Since his days as a K-12 student, scholarships have given him educational opportunities he wouldn't have had otherwise. These scholarships, some of which were designated for African Americans, allowed him to attend private school, earn his undergraduate degree and enroll in law school.

Had it not been for that aid, Solomon says, he would have had to "completely reevaluate what I want to do." "It's very hard for us to get into these advanced fields because of the costs and because of the time," he said. Getting rid of them "will further perpetuate a pipeline and a system where the only people who have the opportunity to be in those fields are people who come from good financial situations."

Even as states including Missouri unwind race-based scholarships, however, many colleges and organizations have reiterated their commitment to scholarships and other programs aimed at making campuses more diverse.

Charles Barkley, the TV commentator and former NBA player, said he would be updating his will to leave Auburn University in Alabama $5 million for scholarships for Black students. "That's just my way of trying to make sure Auburn stays diverse," he said of his alma mater. More than 3 in 4 students or 78% at the land-grant institution are white.

Even before affirmative action ban,Many flagship universities didn't reflect their state's Black or Latino high school grads

Given the racial disparities even at public universities like Auburn, the stakes of these scholarships, advocates say, have never been higher. Citing those stakes, legal and financial aid experts are urging colleges and state leaders to be cautious with their directives.

"The SCOTUS opinion was squarely focused on institutions' admissions policies," Justin Draeger, president and CEO of the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators, told the online publication Inside Higher Ed. "The highest court in the country took months to deliberate on this issue, and schools should similarly consider any implications on financial aid ... (and) be careful about overreacting."

Contact Alia Wong at (202) 507-2256 or awong@usatoday.com. Follow her on Twitter at @aliaemily.

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Texan1211
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Texan1211    11 months ago
"All Missouri programs that make admitting decisions by disfavoring individuals based on race - not just college admissions, but also scholarships, employment, law reviews, etc. - must immediately adopt race-blind standards," he wrote.

Isn't this really how it should be?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

Public universities should not grant scholarships for anything other than achievement or financial need.   

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3  Thrawn 31    11 months ago

I think scholarships provided by the university itself should be race blind, if that is even truly possible. My only issue with this is this policy will also HEAVILY favor those kids with access to better schools and resources since most of the time they will outperform those without those same resources even if the other person is just as good or just as smart. This would also have to side effect of reducing aid going to historically disadvantaged communities, which tend to be minority communities. 

But that should not apply to any private scholarships. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3    11 months ago

Agreed.  Surely it should be constitutionally valid for private individuals/corporations to apply scholarship funds for any legal reason they should wish.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1    11 months ago

Can you even imagine the outrage if a school offered a scholarship that only white people were eligible for?

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3.1.2  Thrawn 31  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.1    11 months ago

Yes. You.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.3  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.1    11 months ago

Like hockey scholarships?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.4  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.2    11 months ago

that doesn't make sense.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.5  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @3.1.3    11 months ago

please tell me you aren't so racist as to think blacks don't play hockey.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3.1.6  Thrawn 31  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.4    11 months ago

Yes it does.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.7  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.1.6    11 months ago

dream on!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.1    11 months ago

I have always indicated that intelligence and achievement should be the qualification to guide the awarding of scholarships - encourage the most brilliant and productive to benefit the nation.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.9  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.8    11 months ago

What about the rest. . . who don't have legacy family, faculty "family and friends," or "old money," or "networks," or "friends with benefits," or any of a number of other "ins" into society? What are they supposed to do in a country that is varied in its citizenship?

This is the United States and some people (largely conservatives) can pretend they are fighting for equality in all areas of society, but it is a big lie.

Worse, these fools somehow think they are going to win by putting  those they class as "outsiders" back into "the Box." I have a strong feeling that this time it won't work. People are smarter than they were before-smarter than ever-and this time we know how to succeed.

Case in point: Look at 'little' Ukraine kicking Russia's 'oversized' ass around like Godzilla rolling over king Gidorah and 'company.'

Nuclear Godzilla vs King Ghidorah | Godzilla: King of the Monsters [4k, HDR]

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @3.1.9    11 months ago

As I said, IMO making sure the most brilliant, talented and intelligent receive whatever is necessary to make sure that the best and brightest are enabled to help the nation to be the best and brightest, whatever colour the student might be.  My father paid for my higher education and even with student loans I helped pay for my kids' education.  I see nothing wrong with that.  But with Japan dumping radioactive water in the Pacific maybe we really WILL see a Nuclear Godzilla one day. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
3.1.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  CB @3.1.9    11 months ago

Oh, and as for "the rest", either they pay their way, take out student loans if necessary, and If they don't qualify for university, go to trade school - learn a trade with which to make a living, and if nothing else, join the military. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.12  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.10    11 months ago

The most brilliant, talented, and intelligent do receive higher educations one way or another. If you are suggesting that only the "most brilliant, talented, and intelligent should receive such opportunities, then you are establishing a caste system.

There are people in this U.S. society who are literally held back/held down/"otherized"  (this is talked about in the media all the time so I won't rehash it here) and since this happened in our nation's past and due to changing politics is certainly getting ready to happen again - some support groups and programs are needful in our society. As for student loans all the "needy" students have them in their education packages to a degree or another.

BTW, this country can not maintain its status among nations if it won't help to lift its citizens our of the status quo of "low expectations" simply because it wants to PRETEND not to see the problem for what it is.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.13  CB  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @3.1.11    11 months ago

3.1.12  and all applicants granted Affirmative Action have qualifying scores to get into colleges and universities. Let's clear that up; the point/s given a student for ethnicity and race is to increase the diversity on campuses due to societal and political factors from the nation's past and soon to be present.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.14  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.12    11 months ago

Pretending that there aren't opportunities for all to succeed won't fix your imaginary problems.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.15  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.13    11 months ago

If someone with lower test scores is allowed in because of their race while someone scoring higher is denied based on their race, then where in the hell is the equity in that?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.16  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.14    11 months ago
I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing (Open Up The Door I'll Get It Myself)

Listen to the lyrics of the song from the consciousness era of music, because the times they are a'coming again to remind this nation that people have to help its entire population rather than pushing some impractical ideology which says there are forces in this country which are working to keep other people down and are waging societal war against their fellow citizens! And have been doing so nonstop.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.17  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.16    11 months ago

Yeah, this whole shtick about keeping people down and taking their rights away isn't persuasive.

Now, if just once you could provide some proof for these claims.

I don't ever see it happening, to be honest.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.18  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.15    11 months ago

Affirmative Action was a tool to help make winners in underprivileged communities due to a variety of negative circumstances, in this context, societal inflicted on minorities by this nation's majority. Conservatives actually seek a return to that?

You do understand what an UNDERPRIVILEGED COMMUNITY set of dynamics, issues, and problems mean, right? If the nation does not use other social tools to self-correct problems in our system...the issues and problems of the past will return/get worse! It is common-sense that if you don't fix corrupted matters in society they will not fix themselves!

One more thing, it is a myth that there opportunities for "all" to succeed in this country, because for one thing there are people (namely conservatives) who keep passing policies in and out that lead to community divide, struggles, and more poverty.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.19  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.18    11 months ago

AA is no longer necessary. No special treatment because of race.

THAT is TRUE equality!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.20  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.17    11 months ago

I am not sure you are being honest. Because I discern that you not too young to remember the Sixties and all the years of struggle and progress for this entire nation to get to where it is today. And you have the gall to call it a "Shtick" - now that's just ideological stupidity!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.21  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.20    11 months ago

It is nothing but schtick in today's world.

AA is discrimination.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.22  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.18    11 months ago

Why do you believe you deserve special, disparate treatment?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.23  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.18    11 months ago

Is there or has there ever been a problem you don't lay at conservatives' feet?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.24  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.21    11 months ago

Says you. And you are? Universities and colleges see what you label (negative) discrimination as needed diversity on their campuses and in the business world.  Holding to an impractical ideology instead of making our society work for all by doing what it takes to make it work for all its people is dumb.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.25  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.24    11 months ago

Diversity can happen naturally now, no need for special, disparate treatment of any race.

Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you try to justify it.

I didn't label anything as (negative) discrimination, I called out discrimination for what it is---special treatment based on race.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
[dəˌskriməˈnāSHən]
NOUN
  1. the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of ethnicity, age, sex, or disability:
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.26  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.22    11 months ago

I am reminded about something I read about the "Make America Great Again" mouth spouter: Donald J. Trump

Trump Employees Marked Applications Of Minority Prospective Renters With Special Codes Like “C” For “Colored”

Trump Employees Marked Applications Of Minorities With Codes And Allegedly Directed Blacks And Puerto Ricans Away From Buildings With Mostly White Tenants.

According to Washington Post, “Federal investigators also gathered evidence. Trump employees had secretly marked the applications of minorities with codes, such as ‘No. 9’ and ‘C’ for ‘colored,’ according to government interview accounts filed in federal court. The employees allegedly directed blacks and Puerto Ricans away from buildings with mostly white tenants, and steered them toward properties that had many minorities, the government filings alleged.” [Washington Post, 1/23/16]

Trump Employees Who Rented Properties Testified That They Were Told Trump’s Company Only Wanted To Rent To “Jews And Executives,” “Discouraged Rental To Blacks.”

 According to Washington Post, “Two former Trump employees, a husband and wife who rented properties, were quoted in court documents as saying they were told that the company wanted to rent only to ‘Jews and Executives’ and ‘discouraged rental to blacks.’ The couple told the government’s lawyers that they were advised that ‘a racial code was in effect, blacks being referred to as ‘No. 9.’ ‘” [Washington Post, 1/23/16]

1973: Justice Department Sued Trump, Father For Racial Discrimination

1973: Justice Department Sued Donald Trump, His Father For Refusing To Rent To African Americans. In his book TrumpNation, Timothy L. O’Brien wrote, “Cohn did more for Donald than make introductions. The Justice Department sued Donald and his father in 1973, charging the builders with racial discrimination for refusing to rent to African Americans.” [TrumpNation, 1/1/05]

  • Washington Post: “As Company President, Donald Trump Took An Interest In All Levels Of The Business.” According to Washington Post, “As company president, Donald Trump took an interest in all levels of the business, according to his own accounts. He often helped his father with management chores, including collecting rent, sometimes from unruly tenants.” [Washington Post, 1/23/16]

Justice Department Lawyer Against Trump, 2016: Government “Had The [Racial] Coding, They Had The Testers, And Had The Testimony Of People Who Worked There.” According to Washington Post, “Goldweber, the Justice lawyer who originally argued the case, said it was a clear government victory. The government ‘had the [racial] coding, they had the testers, and had the testimony of people who worked there,’ said Goldweber, now a private practice lawyer in New York. ‘It was an important, significant step for enforcement of the Fair Housing Act. It was a big deal.’” [Washington Post, 1/23/16]


So you see this evidence of why blacks and other minorities need "special" treatment NOW?!  It's all because of sick, disturbed, bigots who won't let society alone to properly integrate and 'melt' into one people. Then and now!  A "hero" on the right was busted for being a lousy obstructionist to COLOR-BLINDNESS, as clearly Trump and his minions could SEE color people (of all kinds) and practiced SEGREGATION against them.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.27  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.23    11 months ago

I don' t lay problems at conservatives' feet that they don't cause for the rest of humanity and society. Stop messing around in innocent people's lives and conservatives can't be blamed: Can they?!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.28  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.25    11 months ago

Spin all you want. Court date are a'coming.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.29  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.27    11 months ago

Laughable nonsense, of course.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.30  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.28    11 months ago
Spin all you want. Court date are a'coming.

The only spinning is coming from you, trying to justify discrimination.

SCOTUS has spoken, so once again I have no earthly idea what court dates you are referring to since you didn't name any cases or when and where these cases are being heard.

There is no need to be so cryptic. If you know of such court cases NAME them.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.31  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.26    11 months ago

Look, I get your obsession with Trump, I really do, and realize you just can't control dragging him along beside you everywhere you go.

AA is dead, sir, long live justice.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.32  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.30    11 months ago

Think of it this way; it won't take the usual suspects long before they get caught red-handed stealing and cheating a minority group out of its rights, privileges, and positions in this society. Then, it's back to the courts for new decisions.  Watch. This. Space.

Apparently, lawsuits are all this country has left that works—properly.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.33  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.32    11 months ago
Think of it this way; it won't take the usual suspects long before they get caught red-handed stealing and cheating a minority group out of its rights, privileges, and positions in this society.

I am sick and tired of all your innuendo that you fling around sans any facts to support such crackpot theories.

It is a ridiculous argument that can't hold water.

And every single time anyone ask you to elaborate and tell us what rights you lost, you clam up or disappear.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.34  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.31    11 months ago

And I realize you can't help defend the indefensible. The "hero" on the Right was a prime problem-maker who divided the citizens of this country by color codes ; evidently, you can't see how UN-COLOR-BLIND the leader of the republican ticket was/is.  Or, maybe it's just too hard for you to admit it.

97-973304_peeking-lady-with-justice-scale-lady-justice-no-blindfold.png

You don't have to discuss it any farther. I get it. The truth can be too much at times. And the point has been made.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.35  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.34    11 months ago
And I realize you can't help defend the indefensible.

I am curious as to what the hell you think I am defending here.

Discrimination is just that and I am not the one defending it here---you are under the guise of AA.

And if you are naive enough to think racial problems started with Trump, then I gave you too much credit before.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.36  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.33    11 months ago

You're digressing and falling back on propaganda myth now. Let's move on. We have a topic in front of us to discuss farther. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.37  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.35    11 months ago

So you admit there are racial problems? About damn time!  So much for "imaginary problems," (It's all propaganda with you all.)

crop=auto
Professor Principal
3.1.14    seeder    Texan1211    replied to    CB   @ 3.1.12       2 hours ago

Pretending that there aren't opportunities for all to succeed won't fix your imaginary problems .

 
like.png?skin=ntNewsTalkers3&v=1613695469   1  
    REPLY          
 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.38  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.36    11 months ago

Let's not. I am growing bored with the usual tactics--making claims without facts, then getting pissy when called out on the same claims because you can NOT justify discrimination no matter how hard you try.

Don't try that crap with me any more.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.39  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.37    11 months ago
So you admit there are racial problems? About damn time!

Never once have I denied it but I am sure you 'read' somewhere that I did.

When will YOU be able to admit that AA is discrimination?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.40  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.39    11 months ago

Positive discrimination which seeks to correct past wrongs and malfeasant conduct is constructive, not destructive. Though, it is evident, you would like to PRETEND to not comprehend the difference/s. Try to be share authentic truth going forward.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.41  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.37    11 months ago

yes, I damn sure wrote that, and thanks for quoting me.

The imaginary problems are your insistence that you have lost rights, privileges, and standing despite being utterly incapable of articulating what any of those are.

Perhaps instead of talking in broad generalities, you could be a BIT more specific and give examples.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.42  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.40    11 months ago
Positive discrimination which seeks to correct past wrongs and malfeasant conduct is constructive, not destructive.

Yeah, discrimination is just that no matter how much lipstick you pile on that pig. 

AA is dead, get used to it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.43  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.40    11 months ago

So you still won't admit that AA is discrimination.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.44  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.40    11 months ago

Positive discrimination which seeks to correct past wrongs and malfeasant conduct is constructive, not destructive..

Tell that to the Asian American kid who lost his/her/them seat to a less qualified kid.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.45  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.38    11 months ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif   You got jokes! As I explained to you ALREADY there is positive and negative types of discrimination. One is constructive for the progress of matters and people, the other is destructive and damaging to the lives and spirit of people and the human 'condition.'

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.46  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.45    11 months ago

Good that you see the humor in this argument.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.47  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.46    11 months ago

What "argument"?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.48  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.47    11 months ago

The positions that you’re advocating.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.49  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.44    11 months ago

Tell that to the other minority kids who are underprivileged by conservative ideology which "lives" to keep them out of a wholesome way out of poverty. In this regard, college and university boards are better people than those contrited pretext-seeking dividers of the people of this great nation. We would be better off without any conservatives at all than this 'mess' that has beset the nation.  As far as these Asian students, one could ask if they are so highly qualified why some school did not take them - or did they get into college/universities anyway?

As for choice, well peek this, colleges/universities had and continue to have freedom (y'all mouth the word quite often) to decide whom they let on to their campuses. In this case, that is a good thing!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.50  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.42    11 months ago

Not even in conservative 'land' will I believe the denseness is so thick!  So let's move on.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.51  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.48    11 months ago

You digressed (in error of thought). Let's move on.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.52  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.51    11 months ago

Whatever.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.53  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.49    11 months ago
Tell that to the other minority kids who are underprivileged by conservative ideology which "lives" to keep them out of a wholesome way out of poverty.

Exactly, no need for empathy for Asian Americans, to much like white Americans.



 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.54  Jack_TX  replied to  JBB @3.1.3    11 months ago
Like hockey scholarships?

OK.  That's pretty good. jrSmiley_91_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.55  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.12    11 months ago
The most brilliant, talented, and intelligent do receive higher educations one way or another. If you are suggesting that only the "most brilliant, talented, and intelligent should receive such opportunities, then you are establishing a caste system.

That's not what a caste system is.

BTW, this country can not maintain its status among nations if it won't help to lift its citizens our of the status quo of "low expectations" simply because it wants to PRETEND not to see the problem for what it is.

Agree.  But giving scholarships to kids based on their race is simply a band-aid covering the cancer. 

You're telling kids they can go to college and be successful, despite the fact their public schools didn't prepare them.  You give them some money, so they go.  But it's not enough money, so they also borrow to go.  And then when they can't cut it, they now have no degree and student loans to pay off.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.56  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.53    11 months ago

In what way are Asians more like White Americans? Go! 

I question if some conservatives do empathize with Asian American college students (if that is what you are implying). All the same, where is the empathy for a "detached" people who are solely and wholly 'products' of this country's mis/treament of them in shapes, forms, and fashions? And, whom were and continue to be held back by 99.99 percentages of conservative majority legislatures coupled with a now conservative-led (6/3 majority) SCOTUS?

Justice Thomas is a case in point: That 'poor fool' is a model of AA success, and yet he has been melodramatic depressed over the method used to get him to the dance and a life of luxury with billion oligarchical friends  pouring over him with trips, properties, and 'long walks of reflection on white beaches.' These oligarchs would not even know that fool's name if AA had not been beneficial to him. He should thank Yale instead he has harbored a sick despair about what—his success—for the better part of his adult life!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.57  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.55    11 months ago
But giving scholarships to kids based on their race is simply a band-aid covering the cancer. 

What, pray tell, is the cancer's cause that Affirmative Action sought to fix. BTW, question for you: What was affirmative action called when it was only proper for Whites to receive advantageous placement and status in this country? What was that called?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.58  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.56    11 months ago
In what way are Asians more like White Americans? Go! 

Entrance exams and other entrance criteria.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.59  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.58    11 months ago

Well good, so. . . it is your theory that no one else should be allowed to enter college except if they are on the level of Asians and White Americans? Is that what you really think? Tell me if I am right or wrong about this!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.60  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.59    11 months ago
it is your theory that no one else should be allowed to enter college except if they are on the level of Asians and White Americans?

No, why would you think that?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.61  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.60    11 months ago

You can answer the question no matter what I think: Go ahead, please.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.62  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.50    11 months ago
So let's move on.

That is ALWAYS your MO whenever asked to supply any facts to back your outlandish claims up.

It is intellectually dishonest and rather weak.

Let's NOT move on for a change.

How about we start with you providing some real facts instead of just emotionally charged false claims?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.63  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.62    11 months ago

You go first, since you are OBVIOUSLY the fact person.  /s  Go ahead. Or is all you got is 'mouth'?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.64  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.63    11 months ago

Not playing your games today.

You know damn well I was referring to your obstinate refusal to ever document what rights, privileges, and standing have been taken away from you by evil conservatives, oh my!

I think I would fall over in shock if you ever do so.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.65  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.64    11 months ago

I called it right!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.66  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.65    11 months ago
I called it right!

Yes, you have exhibited a real ability to never answer any questions put to you, to deflect, and make wild crazy accusations while avoiding providing any proof at all for those wild claims and proving you don't want any real discussion.

Thank you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.67  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.66    11 months ago

Now I am moving on - with or without permission. Do not expect anymore replies to non-substantive statements. You're welcome. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.68  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.67    11 months ago
Now I am moving on - with or without permission.

Did you think you needed my permission?

Is that one of the rights, privileges, or standing you lost to conservatism?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.69  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.57    11 months ago
What, pray tell, is the cancer's cause that Affirmative Action sought to fix.

The bigotry of low expectation.  The progressive decline of standards.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.70  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.69    11 months ago
The progressive decline of standards.  

Is that a play on words? 

Impressive!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.71  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.69    11 months ago
What, pray tell, is the cancer's cause that Affirmative Action sought to fix. BTW, question for you: What was affirmative action called when it was only proper for Whites to receive advantageous placement and status in this country? What was that called?
The bigotry of low expectation.  The progressive decline of standards.  

SORRY! Your answer does not follow the question asked.  Affirmative Action is/was an umbrella program, set of tools, designed and intended for use to fix a lack of inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity on college and university campuses.

You know, DEI programs that some conservatives love to discount and piss on every chance some of their leadership gets.

BTW, question for you: What was affirmative action called when it was only proper for Whites to receive advantageous placement and status in this country? What was that called?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.72  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.71    11 months ago
SORRY! Your answer does not follow the question asked.

It does.  You just don't like the answer.

Affirmative Action is/was an umbrella program, set of tools, designed and intended for use to fix a lack of inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity on college and university campuses.

A supposed problem that wouldn't exist if we educated everybody reasonably equally at the K-12 level.

What was affirmative action called when it was only proper for Whites to receive advantageous placement and status in this country? What was that called?

I have no idea WTF you're talking about, and bigger typeface hasn't made you clearer.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.73  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.71    11 months ago
BTW, question for you:What was affirmative action calledwhen it was only proper for Whites to receive advantageous placement and status in this country? What wasthatcalled?

Trick question?  What is your answer?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.74  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.72    11 months ago
A supposed problem that wouldn't exist if we educated everybody reasonably equally at the K-12 level.

Well, what the "h" are the chances of that happening? It sure is not the "students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools.

 So you have no clue whatsoever, not even a smidgen what affirmative action for white people is/looked like? Why not?!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.75  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.73    11 months ago

It would not be much of a question if it was not even meant for a try or an answer-right?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.76  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.74    11 months ago
Well, what the "h" are the chances of that happening?

Incredibly low.  And the more we keep lowering the bar for minority kids, the worse it's going to get.

It sure is not the "students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools.

No.  That still doesn't explain why a black kid should be magically entitled to preferential treatment over a Pakistani kid.

So you have no clue whatsoever, not even a smidgen what affirmative action for white people is/looked like? Why not?!

I have no idea what you're asking.  

I'm not sure why you imagine this has anything to do with white people.  The lawsuit was brought by a group of Asian students.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.77  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.75    11 months ago

Right

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.78  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.76    11 months ago

Oh please. Behind this is some conservative foundation or fake "grassroots" group funding it.  Probably a Koch-funded group at that! (KOCH Bros. fund a great many things that they call freedom even when its oppression.)

As for the "low bar for minorities," well all I will say is somebody's white ANCESTORS set minorities-including Native Americans-in this country back with their centuries old policies, policing, and laws, and now INSIST these minorities ought not be permitted a real chance to catch up. The playing field is UNEQUAL when the game is rigged with whites holding to hidden points on the scoreboard which will be revealed at the games end.

As for "low bar for minorities" that is a myth. Minorities, even with their poor-quality schools around the country (as we are told), qualify to enter colleges and universities just like other students what affirmative action does is bring inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity to campuses where the "competition" to get in is shall we say rigorous and stiff-and all the leverage belongs to wealthier people-who are largely white!

The colleges and universities as a 'body' has healthy needs too. That is, it is not a good practice to exclude minorities from campuses, because it underserves the educational field of play and disadvantages the nation as a whole!

Why conservatives with their minds stuck on ideology; fail to realize is that if there are citizens in this nation who wish to be higher educated but can not be because they can not surmount the policies and laws which effectively do not fix the issues that are causing them and the nation to stumble backwards over this, then the disease of what you call "low bar for minorities" may continue renewed and indefinitely!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.79  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.77    11 months ago

So give it a try with an answer!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.80  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.78    11 months ago
As for the "low bar for minorities," well all I will say is somebody's white ANCESTORS set minorities-including Native Americans-in this country back with their centuries old policies, policing, and laws, and now INSIST these minorities ought not be permitted a real chance to catch up.

And here in the present-day real world... we have well-intentioned soft-hearted white liberals running schools and trying to make up for all that by "cutting these minority kids a break"  and not requiring black kids to learn the same things white kids have to.

There is a gargantuan gap in test scores. 

That gap has remained almost unchanged for the last 40 years, moving ever so slightly in the wrong direction.  https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_226.10.asp   

The standard deviation is even higher on graduate exams like the LSAT.

Now... either you believe that gap exists because black and Latino kids are somehow dumber than white and Asian kids.... OR.. the schools are treating them differently .  

As for "low bar for minorities" that is a myth.

The data says it's not.

Minorities, even with their poor-quality schools around the country (as we are told),  qualify  to enter colleges and universities just like other students

The data says they don't.  

what affirmative action does is bring inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity to campuses where the "competition" to get in is shall we say rigorous and stiff-and all the leverage belongs to wealthier people-who are largely white!

If by "leverage", you mean white kids know more and have better scores, then yeah... 

The colleges and universities as a 'body' has healthy needs too. That is, it is not a good practice to exclude minorities from campuses,

Who is responsible for that exclusion, CB?  Has the penny dropped yet?

because it underserves the educational field of play and disadvantages the nation as a whole!

No.  It doesn't.  Excluding more qualified kids based on skin color does not in any way produce an advantage for the nation.  It only masks the damage our public education system has been doing to black & Latino students for decades.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.81  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.80    11 months ago
It only masks the damage our public education system has been doing to black & Latino students for decades.

Then, if your chief and repeat complain is the public school system (where have I heard this complaint before?) then it is as I stated:

3.1.74 "It sure is not the students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools." 

That is why we supposedly have educators, supervisors, and a Secretary of Education. Also, policy makers in Congress. Also, I don't fully grasp what you seem to be alluding :

1. Is it the failure of the K-12 system?

2. The failure of public school system?

3.The collective failure of Black and Brown people to learn?

Which one or is it all of the above that you see as the problem?

Be open and clear so we can get somewhere in this discussion we are having!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.82  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.80    11 months ago
  Excluding more qualified kids based on skin color does not in any way produce an advantage for the nation. 

"More" qualified students by definition will become high achievers in their own right and likely with other opportunities at other elite universities. 

However, these "achievement gappers" as your SAT scores link highlights, is not the ONLY and should not be the single way for young, bright, children of minorities (including Asians) to get into college. So why the heavy and repeat and one-sided emphasis while ignoring other means of entry (used and promoted by all who seek to have their children or the child/ren itself)?

This is from your article (its last paragraph): 

Debates over the fairness, value and accuracy of the SAT are sure to continue. * The evidence for a stubborn race gap on this test does meanwhile provide a snapshot into the extraordinary magnitude of racial inequality  in contemporary American society. Standardized tests are often seen as mechanisms for meritocracy, ensuring fairness in terms of access. But test scores reflect accumulated advantages and disadvantages in each day of life up to the one on which the test is taken.

Race gaps on the SAT hold up a mirror to racial inequities in society as a whole.**

Equalizing education opportunities and human capital acquisition earlier is the only way to ensure fairer outcomes. 

Your link shares data results and findings which point out the race-gap on the SAT. Then, the article continues in several ways to explain the data numbers by continuing to fill in the details of how the experts consider other factors involved behind the numbers

Also this from the article:

It is also important to bear in mind that despite persistent gaps in test scores, racial gaps in college enrollment have actually been closing in recent years. In fact, the college enrollment gap by income is now significantly larger than by race.

Second paragraph from the bottom of the link.

* So there are questions about the SAT's usage (the SAT may not be a good measure of student potential. - From the Brookings.edu link.)

**  The point is clear here that there are societal INEQUITIES which are behind the racial gap between groups which the data highlights.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.83  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.80    11 months ago

And now this pause for the cause:  (Flashback)

Thurgood Marshall's Remarks on Racism Still Relevant Today
 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.84  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.81    11 months ago
Then, if your chief and repeat complain is the public school system (where have I heard this complaint before?) then it is as I stated: 3.1.74 "It sure is not the students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools." 

And as I replied in 3.1.76, that still doesn't explain why a black kid should be magically entitled to preferential treatment over a Pakistani kid. 

1. Is it the failure of the K-12 system? 2. The failure of public school system?

It is the failure of the public K-12 system, but we'll add the community college systems as well.

3.The collective failure of Black and Brown people to learn?

No.  It's the school.  When the black valedictorian of a predominantly black/Latino high school makes 1040 on her SAT... which is average for white students... that's the failure of the school. 

She's done everything they've asked her to do. She has fought for her opportunity.  She has shown discipline and perseverance.  But the poor academic standards in the school have left her at a massive disadvantage.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.85  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.82    11 months ago
is not the ONLY and should not be the single way for young, bright, children of minorities (including Asians) to get into college.

It's not.  It is, however, a standardized assessment of what a person actually learned while they were in school.  Universities use them because they have known for decades that the quality of education varies wildly from one high school to another.

So why the heavy and repeat and one-sided emphasis while ignoring other means of entry (used and promoted by all who seek to have their children or the child/ren itself)?

Why should one of the other "means of entry" be skin color?

The point is clear here that there are societal INEQUITIES which are behind the racial gap between groups which the data highlights.

A point I have never disputed.  Where you and I disagree is how to improve the situation. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.86  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.84    11 months ago
And as I replied in 3.1.76, that still doesn't explain why a black kid should be magically entitled to preferential treatment over a Pakistani kid. 

When you find a Pakistani "kid" in America with a similar general historical and modern background as a black person you let me know. Moreover, Black Americans are known for being in the struggle for civil rights - Pakistanis I know have told me to my face that they appreciate what black Americans have done for this nation in securing liberties and OPPORTUNTIES for minorities which they otherwise as limited in number do not have the power or influence to accomplish!

Since you have mentioned Pakistani kids TWICE in this thread I think it proper to inform you there is no internecine quarrel going on between blacks and Pakistanis or Asians even. Exception: The problem as I see it is a sick political warfare being waged between extreme conservatives of all shades and colors and extreme liberals of all shades and colors. And let me be clear about one other point at this time: I am foremost a (political) pragmatist and then more or less a moderate liberal.

 When the black valedictorian of a predominantly black/Latino high school makes 1040 on her SAT... which is average for white students... that's the failure of the school. She's done everything they've asked her to do. She has fought for her opportunity.  She has shown discipline and perseverance.  But the poor academic standards in the school have left her at a massive disadvantage.  

Finally, if it is the failure of the SYSTEM to properly educate then it is as I stated: 3.1.74 "It sure is not the students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools." 

Students can't fix systemic issues of the schools that is for the proper authorities and leaders to do, bar none.  Thus, you just gave a clear indication why colleges moved on the issue to make inclusion, equity, and diversity (necessary for the health of the country as a whole) possible using affirmative action as a tool to level the playing field. Since some students lack in intercity schools necessity 'tools' which apparently show up in private predominantly white schools.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.87  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.86    11 months ago

Exactly, no animosity between Black Americans and Asian Americans.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.88  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.87    11 months ago

Generally speaking, that is. Who in the "h" knows what individuals can have between them as anecdotal narratives.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.89  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.85    11 months ago
Why should one of the other "means of entry" be skin color?

The problem when you drill down on it is "skin color" - you just got through offering it up here:

When the black valedictorian of a predominantly black/Latino high school makes 1040 on her SAT... which is average for white students... that's the failure of the school. 

She's done everything they've asked her to do. She has fought for her opportunity.  She has shown discipline and perseverance.  But the poor academic standards in the school have left her at a massive disadvantage.  


You mentioned black, 'brown,' and white -students as modeling the problem. Fix the problem by offering better K-12 schools to blacks and browns EQUAL to the education of whites. And, you fix the 'color' problem. Otherwise the solution was and could be yes you are guessing it: Affirmative Action which creates EQUITY (not a dirty word) to allow black and brown students coming out of systemically poor quality schools (your assessment) to meet up at some point with their white counterparts at the college/university level. 

You sure can't get 'there' pretending that society is COLORBLIND. You just 'detailed' why it is not - the DATA evidences the problem. 

Now for a clarifying question: Are you against inclusion, equity, and diversity or any one of the three? if so, state it and explain why, please.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.90  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.84    11 months ago

You:  


3.1.81  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.80    yesterday

It only masks the damage our public education system has been doing to black & Latino students for decades.

Me:  

Then, if your chief and repeat complain is the public school system (where have I heard this complaint before?) Then, if your chief and repeat complain is the public school system (where have I heard this complaint before?) then it is as I stated: 3.1.74 "It sure is not the students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools." 

This type of 'monumental' problem for blacks and other minorities has been going on since the integration of schools. And it has been CONSERVATIVES leading the opposition in the private vs. public schools/department of education debates and policy proposals or reasons to terminate.

Has it ever crossed the conservative mind that they are largely the problem for why public schools can't get their curriculum together? That is, because of various interferences by the same set of never satisfied with progress as progress conservatives?!

The public system is not going away. It is here to stay. And yet, even you Jack are discussing our educational system's shortcomings and "disadvantages" without offering one iota of support to the public system to make it better. And you even 'threw down' (in opposition) on community colleges (a public education offering):

Jack_TX  3.1.85 It is the failure of the public K-12 system, but we'll add the community college systems as well.

Partially the problem is conservatives won't lift a finger to help the public system be the 'eagle' soaring that it can be; not just a turkey 'winging' it.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.91  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.88    11 months ago
Generally speaking, that is.

That is what?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.92  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.91    11 months ago

Huh?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.93  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.86    11 months ago
When you find a Pakistani "kid" in America with a similar general historical and modern background as a black person you let me know.

Why would that matter?  If academic admission is to be based on the level of persecution endured by someone's ancestors, we'll just admit all the Jewish kids and be done.

Moreover, Black Americans are known for being in the struggle for civil rights

So?

Pakistanis I know have told me to my face that they appreciate what black Americans have done for this nation in securing liberties and OPPORTUNTIES for minorities which they otherwise as limited in number do not have the power or influence to accomplish!

Great.  We all feel good now. Tell me again how that makes up for 300 points on the SAT.

Finally, if it is the failure of the SYSTEM to properly educate then it is as I stated:  3.1.74  "It sure is not the students' responsibility to fix broken, ass-backward schools." 

That's still true.  It still doesn't entitle black students to take opportunities away from more successful students based on their skin color.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.94  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.93    11 months ago
Why would that matter?  If academic admission is to be based on the level of persecution endured by someone's ancestors, we'll just admit all the Jewish kids and be done.

You moved the goalpost. You introduced "the Pakistani kid" into this - I simply replied to it being so done!

Are you implying that Jews are under-represented at elite universities/Ivy League schools? Yes or No?

And besides that when were Jews EVER enslaved and considered non-white as to be systemically locked out of civil and equitable society in this country? 

Finally, why would it be necessary to admit AL L THE JEWS anyway? Though Jews are a small percentage of the U.S. citizenry. . . it would be 'wildly' out of proportion to their numbers to admit ALL of them to elite campuses simply to repair some neglect and mistreatment of them in this country (which as it relates to Blacks did not happen).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.95  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.93    11 months ago
Pakistanis I know have told me to my face that they appreciate what black Americans have done for this nation in securing liberties and OPPORTUNTIES for minorities which they otherwise as limited in number do not have the power or influence to accomplish!
Great.  We all feel good now. Tell me again how that makes up for 300 points on the SAT.

Again, that's moving the goalpost. If you were interested in SAT points (you did not list Pakistani SAT scores even so) it would require you to post so much. 

As for Blacks and the Civil Rights 'movement' that is too storied in this country for you to attempt to dismiss it out of turn. So I will ask that you don't  make that play. Because Jews marched and died in the struggle for civil rights right alongside of blacks and others.

That's still true.  It still doesn't entitle black students to take opportunities away from more successful students based on their skin color.

Elite universities decide what to do about their campuses under-representation of minorities and in the context of the United States, historically schools accept as fact that there was not and is not yet a level playing field. I will leave it up to you to figure out how other groups use their 'means' to get their "kid/s" into elite universities beyond SAT scores up to this point and time in 'America.' 

The pressing question for conservatives is this: Do you want people of color (Blacks) to be successful in this country or not?

Because it was becoming so and as I stated to you already, whites in this country have had an EXCEPTIONAL 'head-start' in the education and work 'game of life' even why systemically keeping backs down - then and now.  I asked (you) when was "affirmative action" white in this country and you deferred to give a cogent reply. Instead, feigning ignorance of the meaning of the question.

But, for an oppressed people - oppression is a set-back! And, it 'took' centuries to set black people back - don't let it distract you and other conservatives that it may take longer than forty years of direct affirmative action to catch us up in the data.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.96  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.94    11 months ago

Are you anti-Semitic?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.97  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.96    11 months ago

Huh? Explain to me why you think to ask me such a question! If I accept your answer, then and only then will I give you my honest answer.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.98  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.97    11 months ago

Based on your comments in 3.1.94

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.99  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.93    11 months ago

President Lyndon B. Johnson (a former racist, who became a friend of ordinary people and especially black people):

36th   President of the United States:   1963 ‐ 1969

Commencement Address at Howard University: "To Fulfill These Rights."

June 04, 1965

Excerpt:

That beginning is freedom ; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society--to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.

FREEDOM IS NOT ENOUGH But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.

You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.

This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights.

We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.

For the task is to give 20 million Negroes the same chance as every other American to learn and grow, to work and share in society, to develop their abilities--physical, mental and spiritual, and to pursue their individual happiness.

To this end equal opportunity is essential, but not enough, not enough . Men and women of all races are born with the same range of abilities. But ability is not just the product of birth.

Ability is stretched or stunted by the family that you live with, and the neighborhood you live in--by the school you go to and the poverty or the richness of your surroundings.

It is the product of a hundred unseen forces playing upon the little infant, the child, and finally the man .


2SGvnHYV_normal.jpg
Barack Obama
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@BarackObama
Affirmative action was never a complete answer in the drive towards a more just society. But for generations of students who had been systematically excluded from most of America’s key institutions—it gave us the chance to show we more than deserved a seat at the table.
Turning 'back the clock' on minorities that are striving (and succeeding in their education - see J. Sotomayor (she an admitted 'child' of AA, J. Clarence Thomas, and a myriad of other successful citizens) will short-circuit the progress being made as society gradually seeks to fall back into old despairs. 
For that alone, this nation should be very wary of 'killing' off its own success-stories!
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.100  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.98    11 months ago

That is NOT an explanation! 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.101  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.100    11 months ago

It’s as good as you get.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.102  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.101    11 months ago

Don't try to ask complex questions with a 'easy' retort. You have been around long enough to read my 'thoughts' on Jews and others. You "suspicion" was wrong-headed and inappropriate. As indicated by you can not explain why you thought to use this as an opportunity to cast aspersion.  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.103  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.89    11 months ago
Fix the problem by offering better K-12 schools to blacks and browns EQUAL to the education of whites.

Now we're talkin'.

Otherwise the solution was and could be yes you are guessing it: Affirmative Action 

It's obviously not a solution.  It's been 50 years.  If it were an actual solution, it would have worked by now.

which creates EQUITY

Nonsense.  It creates a balm that assuages white liberal guilt and mollifies black people willing to ignore 5 decades of failure.

You sure can't get 'there' pretending that society is COLORBLIND.

You get there by enforcing the same accountability for every school and every student instead of making excuses based on color and producing 1040 valedictorians.

Are you against inclusion, equity, and diversity or any one of the three? if so, state it and explain why, please.

Define those terms as you see them.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.104  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.94    11 months ago
You moved the goalpost.

No.  It was always there.  You just don't like how far you're going to have to kick the ball to get there.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.105  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.99    11 months ago
President Lyndon B. Johnson (a former racist, who became a friend of ordinary people and especially black people):

There is no "former" about it.  

Racist as fuck from his first day to his last.  

If he thought he could have got more votes by re-instituting slavery, he would have done it without hesitation.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.106  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.102    11 months ago
Don't try to ask complex questions with a 'easy' retort.

Did you mean answer, not ask?

You have been around long enough to read my 'thoughts' on Jews

I don’t remember any of your previous comments regarding Jews

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.107  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.102    11 months ago
Don't try to ask complex questions with a 'easy' retort.   

Did you mean, Don't try to answer...

As indicated by you can not explain why you thought to use this as an opportunity to cast aspersion.  

Huh?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.108  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.103    11 months ago
  It creates a balm that assuages white liberal guilt and mollifies black people willing to ignore 5 decades of failure.

Conservatives are no friend of aiding and improving the public school system. Recently, the republican candidate "leader" (Trump) has stated in his 2024 bid:

Education

“When I am president, we will put parents back in charge and give them the final say,” Trump said in a January campaign video , speaking about education

The former president said he would give funding preferences and “favorable treatment” to schools that allow parents to elect principals, abolish teacher tenure for K-12 teachers, use merit pay to incentivize quality teaching and cut the number of school administrators, such as those overseeing diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.

Trump also said in the campaign video that he would cut funding for schools that teach critical race theory and gender ideology. In a later speech , Trump said he would bring back the 1776 Commission , which was launched in his previous administration to “teach our values and promote our history and our traditions to our children.”

Lastly, the former president said he would charge the Department of Justice and the Department of Education with investigating civil rights violations of race-based discrimination in schools while also removing “Marxists” from the Department of Education. A second Trump administration would pursue violations in schools of both the Constitution’s Establishment and Free Exercise clauses, which prohibit the government establishment of religion and protect a citizen’s right to practice their own religion, he said .

And so the "theater" of conservatives see-sawing around with public education whether than supporting it continues.

You can't be taken seriously when you establish a subjective timetables on millions of minorities, who by the way, are relatively 'trickling' into elite universities. Moreover, I recently asked you somewhere : How long has affirmative action for whites last ?

Then you blanketly call the entirety of the AA program a "failure" when you are fully  or partially aware that many success stories-including Clarence Thomas and Sonja Sotamayor and likely the Obamas went to elite universities through the program.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.109  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.103    11 months ago
Are you against inclusion, equity, and diversity or any one of the three? if so, state it and explain why, please.
Define those terms as you see them.

The terms speak for themselves, so let's not belabor them. Are you for any one or several of these in any shape, form, or fashion? If so share that or do you simply reject inclusion, equity, and diversity on college, university campuses?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.110  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.104    11 months ago

You introduced "the Pakistani kid" into this - I simply replied to it being so done!  Worse. What purpose does it serve this discussion if you "ditch" the rest of the comment in its 'entirety'?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.111  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.105    11 months ago

That is your opinion and you can't prove beyond that. President Lyndon B. Johnson, the president who appointed Thurgood Marshall, a civil rights icon, to the Supreme Court of the United States.

I want you to listen (closely) to a discussion had by President Johnson and Thurgood Marshall that set the stage for there to be a Justice Marshall in 1967:

CAUTION: The audio is 'poor' quality in some places but you can still here (if you even attend to it):

For the record, hardly would a racist and opportunist bent on keeping down the blacks offer a lifetime position to a black jurist (civil rights icon). Judge former President Johnson by his actions, because as a black person living at the time. . . that is what I, we, surely did! 

And as for the conservative insulting talking point that what a/any man does for a vote or many votes to win and election: I know you did not just go 'there' considering what conservatives were willing to do and did for Bush-43 (stopped the recount in Florida) and Trump (held an insurrection on January 6, 2021 and a host of other contrivances). Though, these are discussions beyond the scope of this article.

"Thurgood Marshall Nominated to Supreme Court" (Washington D.C., 6/13/1967)
 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.112  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.108    11 months ago
Conservatives are no friend of aiding and improving the public school system

No.  They recognize the job as nearly impossible at this point, and favor alternative methods to get kids better educated.

Then you blanketly call the entirety of the AA program a "failure" when you are fully  or partially aware that many success stories-including Clarence Thomas and Sonja Sotamayor and likely the Obamas went to elite universities through the program.

Are you saying the Obamas were less qualified than white students?  

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.113  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.109    11 months ago
The terms speak for themselves,

No they don't.  There are actual definitions and then there are liberal buzzword definitions.  And then yours may be something else altogether.

Define what you mean by those words.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.114  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.111    11 months ago
That is your opinion and you can't prove beyond that

My mother knew him. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.115  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.112    11 months ago

What are you 'saying' about the Obamas'? You tell me: Were Clarence Thomas and Sonja Sotomayor less qualified? Or did they 'excel' beyond their meager 'offerings' in public schools once allowed in university?

The Battle for Elite College Admissions

As a direct consequence, the war over college admissions has become astonishingly fierce, with many middle- or upper-middle class families investing quantities of time and money that would have seemed unimaginable a generation or more ago, leading to an all-against-all arms race that immiserates the student and exhausts the parents. The absurd parental efforts of an Amy Chua, as recounted in her 2010 bestseller Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother , were simply a much more extreme version of widespread behavior among her peer-group, which is why her story resonated so deeply among our educated elites. Over the last thirty years, America’s test-prep companies have grown from almost nothing into a $5 billion annual industry, allowing the affluent to provide an admissions edge to their less able children. Similarly, the enormous annual tuition of $35,000 charged by elite private schools such as Dalton or Exeter is less for a superior high school education than for the hope of a greatly increased chance to enter the Ivy League. [5] Many New York City parents even go to enormous efforts to enroll their children in the best possible pre-Kindergarten program, seeking early placement on the educational conveyer belt which eventually leads to Harvard. [6] Others cut corners in a more direct fashion, as revealed in the huge SAT cheating rings recently uncovered in affluent New York suburbs, in which students were paid thousands of dollars to take SAT exams for their wealthier but dimmer classmates. [7]

But given such massive social and economic value now concentrated in a Harvard or Yale degree, the tiny handful of elite admissions gatekeepers enjoy enormous, almost unprecedented power to shape the leadership of our society by allocating their supply of thick envelopes. Even billionaires, media barons, and U.S. Senators may weigh their words and actions more carefully as their children approach college age. And if such power is used to select our future elites in a corrupt manner, perhaps the inevitable result is the selection of corrupt elites, with terrible consequences for America. Thus, the huge Harvard cheating scandal, and perhaps also the endless series of financial, business, and political scandals which have rocked our country over the last decade or more, even while our national economy has stagnated.

Just a few years ago Pulitzer Prize-winning former Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Golden published The Price of Admission , a devastating account of the corrupt admissions practices at so many of our leading universities, in which every sort of non-academic or financial factor plays a role in privileging the privileged and thereby squeezing out those high-ability, hard-working students who lack any special hook. In one particularly egregious case, a wealthy New Jersey real estate developer, later sent to Federal prison on political corruption charges, paid Harvard $2.5 million to help ensure admission of his completely under-qualified son. [8] When we consider that Harvard’s existing endowment was then at $15 billion and earning almost $7 million each day in investment earnings, we see that a culture of financial corruption has developed an absurd illogic of its own, in which senior Harvard administrators sell their university’s honor for just a few hours worth of its regular annual income, the equivalent of a Harvard instructor raising a grade for a hundred dollars in cash.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.116  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.115    11 months ago
Or did they 'excel' beyond their meager 'offerings' in public schools once allowed in university?

Didn’t both attend Catholic schools?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.117  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.113    11 months ago

I will do no such thing, beyond saying those words here in context mean what each generally mean. Take it or leave it!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.118  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.114    11 months ago

That would be "hearsay." . . . I'll just leave it at that. Moreover, this is what you wrote about the man:

_v=63f541501163220 3.1.105  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.99    16 hours ago

    President Lyndon B. Johnson (a former racist, who became a friend of ordinary people and especially black people):

There is no "former" about it.  

Racist as fuck from his first day to his last .  

If he thought he could have got more votes by re-instituting slavery, he would have done it without hesitation.  


In my opinion, a truly racist man "to his last" would not have interacted in a telephone call to make his administration's Solicitor General and going farther grant a highly coveted lifetime appointment to a black/civil rights icon as a show of his racist bona fides.  In fact, said individual would surely lose reputation for each instance of doing so!

Cutting through the noise, President Lyndon B. Johnson, elevated himself to the rank of a president of all the people. That is, he let the interests of the country rule his actions and ultimately his heart (which you can hear if you listen to the recording at 3.1.111 .

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.119  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.112    11 months ago
No.  They recognize the job as nearly impossible at this point, and favor alternative methods to get kids better educated.

Pray tell, what "alternative methods" to better educate (liberal) kids do conservatives have in mind? Go!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.120  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.116    11 months ago

Huh?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.121  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.120    11 months ago

Your comment 3.1.115 asked about what public schools provided to the two Justices and I think that they went to Catholic school, not public schools.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.122  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.121    11 months ago

Thank you if you are correct about Thomas and Sotomayor's schools. However, please remark on their admissions as affirmative action higher education entrees. (It's the focus of this discussion.)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.123  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.122    11 months ago

How would I know if their universities selected them on merit alone or not?  

Thomas graduated in 1971 with a BA, cum laude, ranked ninth in his class at Holy Cross.  That’s what got him into Yale Law School.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.124  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.123    11 months ago

Thomas entered Yale as an affirmative action entree (and resented it the 'rest' of his life as apparently it gives him a 'complex' which he is now indulging fully against anyone else receiving such entry into colleges and universities)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.125  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.124    11 months ago
Thomas entered Yale as an affirmative action entree

Source?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.126  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.125    11 months ago

Wow. Now I guess I work for a conservative (this time): 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.127  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.126    11 months ago

You as always can guess whatever you like.

I don’t use Fox News as a source, but even if used, it doesn’t say the Thomas was admitted to Yale because of AA.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.128  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.127    11 months ago

It does not say that he didn't either. It does HINT that he did (and Clarence hints that he did too). . . so now what?!

And why should I care about how you source materials, eh?

Anyway here is another 'offering' from the media CENTER to help solidify your concern about sourcing materials- I hope:

Fact Check: Did Clarence Thomas Go to Yale Under Affirmative Action Policy?

BY   TOM NORTON   ON 6/30/23 AT 11:18 AM EDT

The Ruling

true.png?w=379&f=890adefbcd36148c0214135ed49f4487

True.

Thomas has repeatedly claimed that affirmative action initiatives or similar policies were responsible for his admission and his sense of discrimination therein. This appears to have been a formative part of Thomas' opposition to the social policy. Testimony from others, including Yale officials, supports this claim.

As noted by Yale, the university embarked on an "aggressive" campaign during the 1960s and 1970s, when Thomas applied. Even without written documentary evidence that separately confirms the decision-making behind Thomas' admission, we can be confident that affirmative action was in place and is likely to have had an influence on his placement.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.129  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.128    11 months ago
we can be confident that affirmative action was in place and is likely to have had an influence on his placement.

Why, graduating cum laude, ranked ninth in his class at Holy Cross wasn’t good enough?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.130  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.129    11 months ago

Why ask me? Do I resemble anybody 'close' to Clarence Thomas? I read the material and 'report' it!  And, Clarence has an inferiority 'complex' actively working against him even now because of his "interactions" and/or nearness to Yale's affirmative action policy - that is circumstantially undeniable. That 'crippled' fool of a justice spit in the face of what caused him to succeed and wait for it: highly probably put him in position to meet and marry Ginni and most definitely 'squared' his status at the "commission" to be found and supported later by George H. W. Bush!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.131  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.130    11 months ago
And, Clarence has an inferiority 'complex' actively working against him even now because of his "interactions" and/or nearness to Yale's affirmative action policy - that is circumstantially undeniable.

Maybe his so called complex is a reaction to all that assume that the only way a Black man could get into Yale in 1971 was through AA.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.132  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.131    11 months ago

Clarence's placement at Yale Law School was not due to himself  (possibly; we may never fully know. That is, he may not know definitely himself). That said, as a supreme court justice sworn to rule on laws objectively, it is highly questionable if he let his subjective 'complex' (for over thirty plus years); as he waited for a conservative-leaning court to materialize decide his vote on affirmative action.

The issue for Yale Law School in 1970 was a driving need for diversity; that not having any other 'pool' to draw out of other than a largely underprivileged, often poor, limited (lesser) education, or not considered well-socialized groups of minorities (to a whiteness standard/ of education), nevertheless. 

In short, Yale in 1970 had a 'mission' that required set upon being more inclusive of minorities (in an excessively "white campus"), because blacks in society needed a balance of elite black lawyers similar to whites having an overabundance of elite white lawyers. So Clarence Thomas wanted Yale. Yale desired to place Thomas. And, as it happened affirmative action "kicked in" in the very first year of Thomas' admission to the elite school.

More on this train of thought in the light of day (Monday). It's late. Good night!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.133  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.132    11 months ago
Clarence's placement at Yale Law School was not due to himself 

Why don’t you believe that a Black man could have earned his position at Yale in 1971?  Was the Yale admission board full of racist Repubs?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.134  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.133    11 months ago

I have not suggested a black man could not earn a position at Yale in 1971. What I am stating is that in Thomas' situation at Yale there were at least two goals to achieve:

1. Yale Law need to diversified to better serve the (elite) law community; and

2. Clarence Thomas' needed entrance to an elite law university (where leaders are drawn from its pool).

The two goals abruptly 'collided' and afterwards Clarence Thomas was deeply affected ('disturbed') by what he suspects happened-whether he could prove affirmative action in his entrance or not.

That is, Clarence Thomas' problem stemmed from the fact that Yale begin affirmative action the same year (1971) he, a black student, enrolled, and from what I have read on the issue (plenty by now) Thomas possibly never was told whether he was a recipient of affirmative action or admitted based on his past grades. Or worse, he felt that he could never convince anyone because of the (bad) timing of his 1971 admission that he was not a 'child' of affirmative action.  Remember this, Yale had admissions requirements in 1971 of which the new program, affirmative action,  became one of a list of processes to build consensus for admission to the school. 

Note: I have sourcing information to support my statements. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.135  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.134    11 months ago
I have not suggested a black man could not earn a position at Yale in 1971. What I am stating is that in Thomas' situation at Yale there were at least two goals to achieve:

No, you suggested that Thomas couldn't.  Yale could have cleared this up years ago by providing their 1971 admission process/products as it relates to Thomas.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.136  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.135    11 months ago

Consider this: (Source 1 of 2)

EXCLUSIVE: Wendell Pierce, Who Played Clarence Thomas, Gives His Thoughts On Controversial Supreme Court Justice

Wendell-Pierce-and-Justice-Clarence-Thomas-960x720.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs%3Adevice%2Frscb35-1

Actor Wendell Pierce, known for his roles in “The Wire” and “Jack Ryan,” offered a detailed perspective on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and his stance on affirmative action.

Pierce, who portrayed Thomas in the HBO film “Confirmation,” provided a unique insight into the Justice’s controversial views.

Pierce explained that he and Thomas share similar backgrounds during an interview with AllHipHop.com.

“Black from the south, Grandparents were farmers, poor, understood the value of Education the premium value of Education your first wealth in life is education, Catholic black Catholic from the south,” he said during an interview with Chuck “Jigsaw” Creekmur.

However, their paths diverged when it came to affirmative action. Pierce benefited from it, while Thomas, despite benefiting from it early in his career , later became one of its most vocal critics.

According to Pierce, Thomas’s opposition to affirmative action stemmed from a traumatic experience. After graduating from Yale Law School, Thomas was unable to secure a job at a law firm in his hometown of Savannah, Georgia.

This rejection, Pierce suggests, led Thomas to believe that his degree was devalued because it was obtained through affirmative action.

Pierce explained, “he had no problem with it until he returns home to Savannah, Georgia, and he wants to join one of the established law firms there, and here he is with his Yale degree from the community, smart as can be, and they wouldn’t accept him. He could not get hired at a law firm in Savannah, Georgia.”


Note the actor who played Thomas in film flat out states Thomas benefited from Affirmative Action

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.137  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.135    11 months ago

Consider this set of 'arguments' from a Yale exchange of letters in 1969 about Affirmative Action:  (Source 2 of 2)

This is very interesting about the Yale 'mindset' on why student diversity at Yale is a thing to be desired and brought about:

AN EXCHANGE OF LETTERS

The black quota at Yale Law School

MACKLIN FLEMING / LOUIS POLLAK

This exchange of private letters between Macklin Fleming, Justice of the Court of Appeal, State of California at Los Angeles, and Louis Pollak, Dean
of the Yale Law School, seems to us to raise important issues affecting the public interest. We are grateful to Justice Fleming and Dean PoUak for
permission to publish the correspondence--Eds.

Dean Louis H. Pollak

Yale Law School
New Haven, Connecticut   

9 June 1969

Dear Lou:

The press of activity on Alumni Day didn't allow me to comment on your report to the Executive Committee of the Yale Law School Association about current admission policy at the Law School. Hence this letter. From your remarks and those of Dean Poor, I understand that 43 black students have been admitted to next fall's class, of whom 5 qualified under the regular standards and 38 did not. You anticipate that half this group will actually enroll, thus furnishing 22 black students in the first year class of 165, of whom perhaps 3 will have qualified under the regular standards and 19 will not. You also said that the future policy of the Law School will be to admit 10 per cent of each entering class without regard to qualification under regular standards.

It thus appears that the demand of the Black Law Students Union that 10 per cent of the entering class be black has been more than met. It also appears that 38 fully-qualified applicants for admission to Yale Law School have been rejected solely because they are not members of a minority race. Under current policy the
admission ratio for black applicants (50 per cent) is 5 times the admission ratio for other applicants (10 per cent). This new policy represents a radical departure from that set out in the 1968 Yale Law School catalogue: "Admission is based entirely on a judgment as to the applicant's promise of professional
distinction." It is clearly apparent that to this judgment has been added the criterion of race.

With the adoption of its new admission policy the Law School has taken a long step toward the practice of apartheid and the maintenance of two law schools under one roof. Already there has been established in the Law School building a Black Law Students Union lounge with furniture and law books provided by the school. And I
learned from Dean Poor that the 12 black students in the present first year class who were admitted under relaxed standards have not done well academically. Dean Poor attributed this deficiency to the preoccupation of these students with racial activities. I think it equally logical to attribute their preoccupation with racial activities to their lack of qualification to compete on even terms in the study of law.

Next year the Law School will have in its midst approximately 30 students who were not required to qualify for admission under the regular standards because of their race. Of the 128 admittees to next fall's entering class who had accepted in early April, the highest ranking of 13 minority admittees stood in an 8-way tie for 98th place
under the regular criteria for admission. Predictably, most of these students will find themselves unable to compete in law studies on even terms with the other students, who have been admitted on the basis of demonstrated academic performance and aptitude for logical reasoning.

The immediate damage to the standards of Yale Law School needs no elaboration. But beyond this, it seems to me the admission policy adopted by the Law School faculty will serve to perpetuate the very ideas and preiudicos it is designed to combat. If in a given class the great majority of the black students are at the bottom of the
class, this factor is bound to instill, unconsciously at least, some sense of intellectual superiority among the white students and some sense of intellectual inferiority among the black students. Such a pairing in the same school of the brightest white students in the country with black students of medic, ere academic qualifications is social experiment with loaded dice and a stacked deck. The faculty can . . . .


This "exchange" goes on for 9 pages (about a total of 11 pages) in the pdf. It is just too long to post here. 

The "reply" back to the addressor is of keen interest because it gives critical insights into what Yale had in mind to do with Affirmative Action on its campuses .  

I encourage (all) you to read the link I supplied above. It's 'deep' - from both addressor and addressee 'sides.'  :)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.138  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.137    11 months ago

Yes, a good back and forth, thanks for posting it.

Some of the school's comments suggest that my recommendation of using socio-economic class and regionally based targets might achieve greater diversity without being as polarizing as racial targets.  

Of course these letters don't tell us if Thomas was one of the otherwise qualified or not. They do reinforced the notion that Yale could have clarified Thomas' status had they choice to do so.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.139  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.138    11 months ago

In my opinion, it is highly likely that Clarence Thomas thinks he was a CANDIDATE for affirmative action in 1971, his 'grudge' against Yale and extraordinary action of attaching a 15 cents sticker to his law degree is indicative of someone who believes he has been 'wronged' by the institution. That 'wrong' being admitted to Yale under the A A inclusion program. Keep in mind, Thomas' background of poverty, lack, cultural "blackness," etceteras in the 1970's made it so that he would qualify for AA whether or not he asked to be considered.  That is, Yale Law School —the elite institution of higher learning—would not have viewed his application to the school as he viewed himself.

Alright, good interaction between us on Thomas. :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.140  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.138    11 months ago

A couple of quick points:

1. It is telling that nowhere do I read anything Thomas writes or states where he outright DENY affirmative action was used in his admitting to Yale Law School.  Yet, he has been deeply and emotionally 'afflicted' about A A.

2. The PDF in 3.1.137 illustrates "perfectly" for the READER what colleges and universities mean/t when they exert INTEREST in admitting less fortunate members of society into their "elite" ranks. It's good business and it's also quite "noble."

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.141  CB  replied to  CB @3.1.86    11 months ago

See 3.1.142.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.142  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.84    11 months ago

The UNC SYSTEM.

Minimum Admission Requirements for High School Graduates and GED :

Student’s Age and College Credits High School GPA Test Scores High School Courses

20** years and younger with fewer than 24 transferable credits

2.5 cumulative weighted GPA SAT of 1010 or ACT composite of 19 See UNC Minimum Course Requirements above

21** years or older

Exempt from minimum High School GPA, test scores and course requirements***

Any age with 24** or more transferable college credits (does not include AP, IB or credit by exam)

Exempt from minimum High School GPA, test scores and course requirements***

Active duty service member or veteran with 3** or more years of active duty service

Exempt from minimum High School GPA, test scores and course requirements***

** Criteria must be met by the time of enrollment at the UNC institution
*** Being exempt from these requirements does not guarantee admission. While applicants are not required to meet these GPA, test score and course requirements, institutions will only admit applicants who meet all campus-specific admission requirements

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.143  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.140    11 months ago
It is telling that nowhere do I read anything Thomas writes or states where he outright DENY affirmative action was used in his admitting to Yale Law School. 

Yes, it tells us that Yale never shared the criteria they used in his admission.  He can't affirm or deny what he wasn't told.

Yet, he has been deeply and emotionally 'afflicted' about A A.

That was because he felt that students, facility and the law firms, assumed AA when looking at Black Yale law students and graduated lawyers.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.144  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.143    11 months ago

That Justice Thomas allowed his subjective emotional 'discomfort' to fester for well over 30 years and affect his opinion-making in negative factions is alarming. For one thing, A A has served him well through out the course of his life of success and not being a failure. 

That he wittingly or unwittingly thought that other minorities do not need (or deserve) a hand-up (which he received at Yale) is a sad commentary on Justice Thomas. Affirmative Action helped Justice Thomas become the man we see today. Hating himself and forcing others to grasp at 'air' because he could not cope is not clear-thinking.

As we saw Yale meant well by its black and minority students to open the door which was shut on account of a standard (GPA and multiple other factors of college admissions) which minorities simply could not achieve because of a ceaseless "struggle" to simply belong in society being waged. (Need I mention that conservatives were the number 1 culprits always putting up obstacles for minorities to be distracted by in the business, education, social, cultural, hell—all-around?)

Finally, I 'read' more like listened to an assessment that Clarence Thomas was a liberal up until this occurred more or less at this instance was when he decided to tilt to conservative points of view. Why? Because he felt strongly that Yale Law School with its 'help' for minority admissions into an old 'white-dominated' system had exposed him to shame, ridicule, questioning, and ultimately job denials because of a (liberal) 'bent' on race admission.

It was only recently (2020) that Clarence Thomas even partially allowed himself to 'forgive' Yale Law enough to as a justice of the Supreme Court go and speak at his alma mater.

In my opinion, I think Justice Thomas is a sad case of a professional holding his private neurosis in high esteem and failing to realize that is unworthy of him to expose the country's law to it. That is, Thomas has done considerable harm to the law he professes to love because of private motivation. Of course, it is possible and may be understandable that Thomas was given a hard time because of affirmative action at an elite institution. . . it was new, it was possible not well understood, it was "mean kids," - but, Clarence Thomas at this time of ending affirmative action should have figured out by now that not all "elite" students are what they appear to be, as the dean alluded to in his argument (from the PDF) not all the white students gaining entry into Yale had high scores on the LSAT or high GPA but were admitted for varying social, cultural, financial "contributors" on their accounts.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.145  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.142    11 months ago

You've posted the requirements for the entire system, which includes 17 different institutions.

A 1010 may get you into someplace like Fayetville State or Appalachian State, provided you're also 6'4", 245lbs, run a 4.4, and led your district in tackles, rushing yards, or touchdown passes.

That isn't going to get a non-athlete into the flagship school at Chapel Hill, where the average score is 1260.

You seem to be attempting to assert that a black student with a 1010 should be admitted ahead of an Asian student with a 1260, based solely on the fact that student is black. 

That's racist as fuck. 

You know it's racist as fuck because if the situation were reversed you'd be screaming about it.... and rightfully so.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.146  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.145    11 months ago

All I did is post what UNC requires and you 'shoot the messenger'? Jack, how about you "calling up" the university and giving them your fire/ire? BTW, I did not even mention "an Asian student" that is your leap to conclusion and you need to deal with that!

You seem to have a need for promoting Asians in your comments, but if you have been reading the threads (and maybe even the PDF I attached) it should be OBVIOUS to you and anybody else that colleges and universities as a body see a need for a MULTIPLICITY of admission criterions aside from grade in order to 'repair breaches' which are left festering if one allows a continuing hierarchy whether than a democracy on their campuses.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.147  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.144    11 months ago
Justice Thomas allowed his subjective emotional 'discomfort' to fester for well over 30 years   Justice Thomas is a sad case of a professional holding his private neurosis in high esteem

Where did you get your degree in psychiatry?  Was the due to AA?

Finally, I 'read' more like listened to an assessment that Clarence Thomas was a liberal up until this occurred more or less at this instance was when he decided to tilt to conservative points of view. Why? Because he felt strongly that Yale Law School with its 'help' for minority admissions into an old 'white-dominated' system had exposed him to shame, ridicule, questioning, and ultimately job denials because of a (liberal) 'bent' on race admission.

At Holy Cross, Thomas earned excellent grades and outside of class, he was a leader in the Black Student Union. He became an activist,and attended anti-Vietnam War rallies and organize a threatened walkout in response to the school’s unfair targeting of Black students for punishment following a campus protest.

He said that more attention to partying and less on studying started his movement away from his peers.  That was reinforced by the attitude towards blacks with Yale instructors and further firmed by law firm attitudes towards AA when he graduated.  The Anita Hill hearings was probably the kicker.

Thomas has done considerable harm to the law he professes to love because of private motivation. 

This AA decision wasn't a 5-4 decision.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.148  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.147    11 months ago
Thomas has done considerable harm to the law he professes to love because of private motivation. 
This AA decision wasn't a 5-4 decision.

Yes, it was 6-3 conservative majority. But, we are focusing on Clarence Thomas, eh?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.149  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.148    11 months ago

His vote wouldn't have changed the outcome and thus didn't cause the considerable damage that you accused him of.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.150  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.147    11 months ago

Indeed, one could make the case that a justice with a definite and private bias against affirmative action should have RECUSED himself from the case (As Justice Kentanji Jackson Brown did in one of the A A school cases due to an association with the school). Alas! Thomas rarely if ever does recuse himself, does he? Unlike Chief Justice Roberts known to vote against A A every time it comes up before the court for opinion-making, Thomas has made us aware of a personal bias against the A A.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.151  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.149    11 months ago

That is not the point, is it? Now you are looking for mitigation. As you well know or should know a 6-3 opinion has the force of precedent and will deter challenges based on the count itself in the future.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.152  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.151    11 months ago

Now you are looking for mitigation. 

No, just an informed discussion.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.153  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.146    11 months ago
All I did is post what UNC requires and you 'shoot the messenger'? 

If I have misrepresented your views, do please correct me.

You seem to have a need for promoting Asians in your comments,

Asian students brought the lawsuit.

it should be OBVIOUS to you and anybody else that colleges and universities as a body see a need for a MULTIPLICITY of admission criterions

Yes.  Some of which are racist.  Which is why they've been ordered to stop.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.154  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.150    11 months ago
Thomas has made us aware of a personal bias against the A A.
After reading the dissent, it seems that two or three Justices have a bias for AA.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.155  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.152    11 months ago

Well, I trust that you have received it in spades by this point! :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.156  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.153    11 months ago

Ordered to stop by a conservative-majority court. It's ability to work as a tool for inclusion rather than exclusion be damned. I might as well state this at this point: Nobody, including conservatives, are able to live in an ideological 'state' for long. We've see what comes of the NEXT "well-heeled" lawsuit on affirmative action smacks a court near us! :)

Affirmative Action policy was set up as a tool to level the playing field and true to form, conservatives like their field level 'unevenly equal.'  That's a shame. The struggle against conservatism: To be continued.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.157  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.154    11 months ago

You never answered the question about when affirmative action was white. . . but apparently enjoy taking potshots when affirmative action is for minorities.  Well, it is what it is.

After all you read and gleaned from this discussion you fall back into the arms of being disaffected by the misery of others. Sad. But by now, I should expect so much.

I will get over my 'disappointment,' because I have no choice but to do so.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.158  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.155    11 months ago
Well, I trust that you have received it in spades by this point!

Spades, LoL, CB.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.159  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.158    11 months ago

What does that suppose to mean, Drinker?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.160  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.159    11 months ago

Didn't you mean 3.1.152 to be a play on words?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.161  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.156    11 months ago
It's ability to work as a tool for inclusion rather than exclusion be damned.

Exactly how is it inclusive to exclude a more-qualified candidate based on race again?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.162  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.157    11 months ago
You never answered the question about when affirmative action was white

Was that meant to be a non-rhetorical question?  Whites, especially wealthy whites have had historical advantages since their arrival. 

. . . but apparently enjoy taking potshots when affirmative action is for minorities.  

What have I written that you consider a potshot?

fall back into the arms of being disaffected by the misery of others

As you frequently do, you leave me clueless as to your meaning.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.163  JBB  replied to  CB @3.1.159    11 months ago

Since Drinker knows full well that in the context you used it the term "In Spades" means "In Trump Cards" and thus we are only left to believe that Drinker was obviously referencing that the word "Spade" is also a racial slur. He probably thinks he is being cute and funny! But, it was an intentionally toxic and noxiously inappropriate comment IMO...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.164  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.162    11 months ago

Do you think it ever gets tiring imagining racism at every term?

And what could be better than you responding to a term used first by another and you getting grilled on it!

Crazy!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.165  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.156    11 months ago

What's the deal in your liberal, blue state of CA?  How did racist conservatives pass a ballot measure in 1996 that banned  public colleges from considering race in admissions?

I read that the share of Black students in  the UC system was less than 4.5% while Hispanics were 25%.  Talk about your unequal playing field.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.166  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.163    11 months ago
I interprited:
Well, I trust that you have received it in spades by this point! :)

followed by a smiley face as a good natured pun.  How did you interpret the meaning?  I must be out of touch as I don't  know what you mean with, "In Trump Cards".

Maybe CB will clear up the confusion.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.167  JBB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.164    11 months ago

Really? When have you ever been unfairly accused of harboring racist sentiments?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.168  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @3.1.167    11 months ago
Really?

Yes.

When have you ever been unfairly accused of harboring racist sentiments?

Each and every time I have ever been accused.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.169  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.164    11 months ago

Do you know what "In Trump Cards" mean?  I've never heard that expression.  

I know in some card games  trump is when one card or suit ranks the highest and  that card wins the hand.  Is that what CB and JBB are saying?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.170  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.169    11 months ago
Do you know what "In Trump Cards" mean?  I've never heard that expression. 

I never have.

I know in some card games  trump is when one card or suit ranks the highest and  that card wins the hand.  Is that what CB and JBB are saying?

I know that trying to be so cryptic and 'clever' is a piss-poor way of getting their 'point' across.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.171  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.170    11 months ago
I know that trying to be so cryptic and 'clever' is a piss-poor way of getting their 'point' across.

Maybe they have disguised their point so much that somebody as slow  and old as myself just doesn't get it.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.172  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.164    11 months ago
Do you think it ever gets tiring imagining racism at every term?

I have 47 years of federal service (Army) and have never been accused of racism.  It seems that those on NT, have a less informed but much lower threshold of what is racism.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.173  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.166    11 months ago

In other words, having been dealt your comeuppance "In Spades" you are now going to play coy and pretend that you never heard of such a phrase and were completely unaware of what you, I and everyone else here knows you meant...

Go tell it to a baby. We all know better!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.175  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.173    11 months ago

I’ve certainly heard the idiom “In Spades”.  Is that what CB meant with the smiley face and not a joke.

Perhaps then, my mistake and my laugh was inappropriate.

BTW, what did you mean by Trump Cards?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.176  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.175    11 months ago

See there? That is what I meant about you never being sincere and always being coy. Nobody would believe you if you were on fire? Nobody can take you seriously. I'll bet you are probably a bridge player, too. As if you do not know that spades are trump cards? Nobody needs attention that badly, outside Texas and Northern Virginia! 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.177  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.176    11 months ago
See there? That is what I meant about you never being sincere and always being coy.

See where?  I honestly thought that CB was making a good natured joke.  I’m still not sure he didn’t since we’ve not heard from him.

Northern VA and Maryland get a lot of attention as many of the federal expenditures are here.  I don’t need any extra, I’m doing all right.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.178  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.176    11 months ago

And I don’t mind if I can’t make the scene 

I’ve got a daytime job, I’m doing alright

I can play Honky Tonk like a maverick 

Saving it up for a NT night

With the Sultans

With the Sultans of Rhetoric 

Yeah

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.179  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.178    11 months ago

I'll leave you to fester in your own bile...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.180  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.179    11 months ago

No bile, I lost my gallbladder in Nov 2020.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.181  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.180    11 months ago

I just read all of 'that' above up to this point: I am at a loss for words! This is some sick shit.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.182  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.161    11 months ago

You could tell me, since you are advocating for EXCLUSION based on race to return once again. Merit is a myth since you fully are aware that some conservatives will not honor any standard they can get around to do whatsoever they 'will' - see McConnell stiff Obama on Merrick Garland's non-appointment to the supreme court and later indulge himself and Trump on Amy Comey Barrett using the exact same method of deceit!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.183  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.181    11 months ago
This is some sick shit.

Indeed, cancer is some sick shit.  Fortunately, I had great medical care and although I lost some significant body parts and have some chemo effects, I’m a very lucky dude.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.184  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.183    11 months ago

I am not interested in your cancer or anybody's medical care. This is some toxic shit being carried forward after what may have been a revealing discussion about affirmative action. I am disgusted by what is being done here and now.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.185  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.184    11 months ago
This is some toxic shit being carried forward after what may have been a revealing discussion about affirmative action. I am disgusted by what is being done here and now.

I’ve certainly misunderstood you in the past, what do you mean now?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.186  Sparty On  replied to  CB @3.1.184    11 months ago
I am not interested in your cancer or anybody's medical care. This is some toxic shit being carried forward after what may have been a revealing discussion about affirmative action. I am disgusted by what is being done here and now.

One hopes you’re at least under the influence and/or wasted on something right now.    If not, that post is some sick shit.    

Some really, really sick shit.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.187  CB  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.186    11 months ago

So says you.   256 's are sick too!   /s

And don't EVER make an attempt to tell me what I should feel when some conservatives are here days in and nights out to spread simple chaos . Evidently, some conservatives come here to manipulate only!

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.188  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.156    11 months ago
Ordered to stop by a conservative-majority court.

Are you saying that liberal courts support racism?

It's ability to work as a tool for inclusion rather than exclusion be damned.

That's sort of like saying "Donald Trump's compassion be damned".  If it ever existed, there isn't any evidence to suggest it still does.

I might as well state this at this point: Nobody, including conservatives, are able to live in an ideological 'state' for long.

You might state it a different way, so people will understand what you mean.

Affirmative Action policy was set up as a tool to level the playing field

No it wasn't.  It was set up as a tool to make white liberals "feel better" without having to actually solve a problem.  That's how they've done things for decades.  

 'unevenly equal.'

Interesting description of "non-racist".

I noticed you have yet to define the terms inclusion, equity, or diversity.  You also did not dispute the idea that you believe less qualified black students should be given admission ahead of other students with higher scores.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.189  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.188    11 months ago
Are you saying that liberal courts support racism?

What I am SAYING is liberals support RESTORATION of past wrong-doings in a society that was bigoted, hateful, and had some monstrous people masquerading about freely talking big about freedom (for themselves) and oppressions for those they deigned unworthy of being anything but their beasts of burden.

It's ability to work as a tool for inclusion rather than exclusion be damned.
That's sort of like saying "Donald Trump's compassion be damned".  If it ever existed, there isn't any evidence to suggest it still does.

That you do not "get" what colleges and universities have done since President Johnson passed the civil rights act and affirmative action came into a truer form and what colleges and universities plan to continue to do to make right societal wrongs is your problem. Inclusion means all of us, yes including conservatives, exclusion as far as this discussion goes means: Some conservatives selfish greed.

Affirmative Action policy was set up as a tool to level the playing field
No it wasn't.  It was set up as a tool to make white liberals "feel better" without having to actually solve a problem.  That's how they've done things for decades.  

Well Clarence Thomas, a black conservative, would certainly agree with you with his affirmatively "actioned" silly miserable "justiced" self!

Interesting description of "non-racist". I noticed you have yet to define the terms inclusion, equity, or diversity.  You also did not dispute the idea that you believe less qualified black students should be given admission ahead of other students with higher scores.

I notice you have not defined affirmative action after the manner institutions of higher learning define it. Why not?

Moreover, those institutions of higher learning choose to have the FREEDOM (remember the word conservative?) to build up this society for the good of all citizens (whatever it may take education-wise) while some conservatives choose to be haters of their fellow humanity. If your "other students" are so damn SMART then how come universities didn't choose him/her/them to take the available slots not set aside? I will tell you why, because campus DIVERSITY matters. Neoliberalism intends to leave citizens behind, and not everybody is desirous of being a neoliberal (like some conservatives). Some institutions of higher learning actually DESIRE to be  'wholesome' and decent places for all humanity to come, learn, and get equipped for tomorrow. Not just bastions for "whiteness," per se.

But now, we seem to have crossed a 'threshold' and possibly no other good can come from this discussion at this point. I am going to wind down now because what may remain is SHIT to throw.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.190  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.187    11 months ago

I’m sorry that you find my comments chaos inducing.  While I don’t think that I clearly understand yours, I never felt chaotic.  Do you want to restore clarity now or just drop the dialogue on this thread? 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.191  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.189    11 months ago
What I am SAYING is liberals support RESTORATION of past wrong-doings in a society that was bigoted, hateful, and had some monstrous people masquerading about freely talking big about freedom (for themselves) and oppressions for those they deigned unworthy of being anything but their beasts of burden.

Surprisingly, you seem to single out here the liberal university admissions folks or due you find them to be mostly conservative racists?

That you do not "get" what colleges and universities have done since President Johnson passed the civil rights act and affirmative action came into a truer form and what colleges and universities plan to continue to do to make right societal wrongs is your problem.

Is California’s passing of Proposition 209 in 1996 which outlawed admission preferences based on race and gender in the state's public institutions an example of conservative racists at work?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.192  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.191    11 months ago
Is California’s passing of Proposition 209 in 1996 which outlawed admission preferences based on race and gender in the state's public institutions an example of conservative racists at work?

I have heard about this recently and repeatedly in the news, however I have not taken any time to look into the details of why any of the states which passed laws doing so did so. Eventually I will get around to reading the details (nuances) when time is available.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.193  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.191    11 months ago

It only took them 35 years to catch up to the EO signed by President Kennedy stating the same thing. 

California is all over it. /s

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.194  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.182    11 months ago
You could tell me, since you are advocating for EXCLUSION based on race to return once again.

Why do you INSIST on telling a lie about my position?

If you can quote me doing as you claim (and it is well-established you can't) you MIGHT have a valid claim. I'll wait.

Just like I STILL am waiting for an answer to this:

Exactly how is it inclusive to exclude a more-qualified candidate based on race again?

Seems like YOU are touting racist policies here, not me. I don't want race to be a factor and YOU DO--as long as the racism seems to benefit a racial group you approve of.

That is rather hypocritical.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.195  Sparty On  replied to  CB @3.1.187    11 months ago

So you were totally sober when you made that comment which makes it even sicker.    Thus displaying the tendency some liberals have for selective compassion.    Overly compassionate for one thing and zero compassion for another.

Sad …..

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.196  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.188    11 months ago
I noticed you have yet to define the terms inclusion, equity, or diversity. 

Any racism and discrimination designed to benefit his preferred group of "victims" of "white conservatives" even though liberals have really done nothing to address any problems realistically.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.197  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.194    11 months ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.198  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.197    11 months ago

Once again (sigh), you refuse to engage in any meaningful debate.

If a simple question can flummox you so easily and so consistently, how do you expect to convey your points?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.199  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.189    11 months ago
What I am SAYING is liberals support RESTORATION

I believe you believe that.

I also believe you would believe any liberal who told you the only reason black people couldn't fly to the moon by flapping their arms is because mean ol' conservatives were "holding them down".

That you do not "get" what colleges and universities have done

Oh we all get it.  It's institutionalized racism.  You just happen to support it. 

Moreover, those institutions of higher learning choose to have the FREEDOM 

Their freedom to be openly and blatantly racist, which has thankfully been revoked.

If your "other students" are so damn SMART then how come universities didn't choose him/her/them to take the available slots not set aside?

Because universities are famously full of white liberals.  It's the white liberal promised land.

I will tell you why, because campus DIVERSITY matters.

Does it? 

Does it really? 

Are we sure? 

Some institutions of higher learning actually DESIRE to be  'wholesome' and decent places for all humanity to come, learn, and get equipped for tomorrow. Not just bastions for "whiteness," per se.

Once again, the lawsuit was brought by Asian students.  I'm quite sure they would argue that their presence in any university does not actually make it less wholesome or less decent, and that they are part of "all humanity".  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.200  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.199    11 months ago
I also believe you would believe any liberal who told you the only reason black people couldn't fly to the moon by flapping their arms is because mean ol' conservatives were "holding them down".

il_1588xN.3132504123_7rc2.jpg

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.201  Jack_TX  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.196    11 months ago
Any racism and discrimination designed to benefit his preferred group of "victims" of "white conservatives" even though liberals have really done nothing to address any problems realistically.

We have reached a surreal and asinine place in our history when the "non-racist" or "inclusive" view necessarily accepts the premise that one or more races are inherently inferior and its members are in need of constant accommodation.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.202  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.199    11 months ago
I also believe you would believe any liberal who told you the only reason black people couldn't fly to the moon by flapping their arms is because mean ol' conservatives were "holding them down".

Why would I believe anything you foolishly say I believe? And, how long have you been believing black people can fly? Did R. Kelly's, "I believe I Can Fly" have something to do with your foolhardy acceptance of this notion?

Oh we all get it.  It's institutionalized racism.  You just happen to support it. 

Oh no! Then that would mean for fifty years a president, congress, and "another" SCOTUS agreed institutionalized racism (your turn of choice) was practical and serviceable. I wonder what rationale that SCOTUS, that former president, and that congress used to come to their conclusions? More to the point, if you have an issue with what those who established a precedent of affirmative action so long ago-you should consult them with your complaint. I am pretty sure they did not see this (and neither do the colleges and universities) the way you insist upon doing so.

Btw, it is so tiresome to have to make "long-winded" discussions with insensitive, hard-headed, people of the internet. Can we wrap this up, soon?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.203  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.199    11 months ago

So are those minorities you deign to pretend to be ignorant about their needs and historical backgrounds.  But, carry on!  Keep pretending. It's horrifiably disconnected and yet somehow  amusing.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.204  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.202    11 months ago

Exactly how is it inclusive to exclude a more-qualified candidate based on race again?

Is past discrimination really a justification for discrimination today?

How do you rationalize that?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.205  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.204    11 months ago

Maybe CB knows that Asian Americans will succeed regardless of the racist conservatives so why waste a seat at a good school when they don’t really need it.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.206  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.203    11 months ago

That’s what I was saying just the other day, cheap amusement here.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.207  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.205    11 months ago
Maybe CB knows that Asian Americans will succeed regardless of the racist conservatives so why waste a seat at a good school when they don’t really need it,

I find it a ludicrous argument that discrimination today is justified because of past discrimination.

How in the world does that make SENSE??

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.208  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.201    11 months ago
We have reached a surreal and asinine place in our history when the "non-racist" or "inclusive" view necessarily accepts the premise that one or more races are inherently inferior and its members are in need of constant accommodation.

Just another example of the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Instead of demanding more, let's lower the standards for all so we produce yet more incapable people.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.209  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.207    11 months ago

Asian Americans are the only race that can succeed very well in the face of hostility, discrimination and racism.  Chinese laborers mid-19th century were practically slaves and human trafficked whores.  They faced similar structural racism as Blacks, had land confiscated from them in WW II, previously were denied seats at the table of good schools, industry, lawyers, etc.  Yet they have the lowest student debt load and pay back the earliest.  They are the most likely to earn a salary significantly above their debt.

CB’s argument is not only do they not need help, but like income redistribution, they need to make more sacrifices for the benefit of our disadvantaged.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.210  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.208    11 months ago

Lowering the bar only hurts in Limbo.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.211  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.204    11 months ago
Exactly how is it inclusive to exclude a more-qualified candidate based on race again?

Before Affirmative Action blacks and browns were unable to qualify to get into elite colleges and universities for a host of reasons (including, but not based on academic/test scores alone). Affirmative Action provides an opening in the closed university system to allow minorities underprivileged , poverty-stricken , living in decayed surroundings , unemployed , blighted conditions , and enduring prejudice (then and now) for centuries.

The opening made by an affirmative action policy is inclusive because it let/s in to predominantly white campuses people who were not there before. Anybody will tell you minorities simply were not there on those campuses. Now they are because of affirmative action. Moreover, it is guesstimated that now that race-centric affirmative action ending will lower those percentages of black and brown people able to access those elite schools as the old issues rise up again pervasive across the country.

Let's call it like it is.

There were lawsuits filed for decades upon decades against affirmative action policies which chipped away at the policy incrementally and then with a conservative-majority court: the policy has been ended for the duration .

There is your affirmation (inclusion) action working to diversify campuses, now this will fall back to exclusion because the policy simply has not been allowed to complete its good works.

Is past discrimination really a justification for discrimination today?

The question is probably best answered by asking has the hearts and minds of the hardcore conservatives been changed over the decades about what is needful, helpful, wholesome, and decent for higher education black and brown people? Or, will this be an opportunity for conservatives to shut the doors to higher education for minorities once again.

Additionally,

It's now 20 years later – does that sound like the America we live in today? Let's look at the tape. In 2019, the typical white family in America still enjoyed eight times the net worth of the typical Black family, in no small part due to centuries of housing discrimination. In 2020, the median household income for Black and Hispanic adults was roughly $46,000 and $55,500, respectively, compared with $75,000 for white workers. Poverty rates among African Americans and Hispanic Americans remain roughly double those for white families.

Across virtually every social and economic institution in American life, statistics show that, even beyond the centuries of discrimination, Americans of color are still routinely discriminated against daily. Unfortunately, that includes education at every level, from pre-K to college. "If you're Black," said Justice Sotomayor at the Court's October hearing, "you're more likely to be in an under-resourced school. You're more likely to be taught by teachers who are not as qualified as others. You're more likely to be viewed as having less academic potential."

In short, racism continues to be a structural problem in America – afflicting many of our core institutions – so it requires structural solutions. Affirmative action is just one of these. Yes, there has been a tremendous amount of progress in racial justice in the years since affirmative action was created. However, we are still far from reaching that higher plateau of equality where the program becomes unnecessary. (To be fair to Justice O'Connor, she has said many times since 2003 that she regrets this 25-year wording in Grutter. )

How do you rationalize that?

Affirmative Action provides/ed:

greater representation at leading schools for minorities,

a growing black and brown middle class ,  and

more members in leadership positions in key instit utions.   

Jun 30, 2023 DAVID BROOKS

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.212  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.211    11 months ago
Before Affirmative Action blacks and browns were unable toqualifyto get into elite colleges and universities for a host of reasons (including, but not based on academic/test scores alone)

Why do you leave out Asian and Muslim Americans? How about Jewish Americans?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.213  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.201    11 months ago

No one (but people who write like you just now) believes black and brown people or any other minority is inherently inferior. That is a lie some conservative like to remark upon with plausible deniability however, it is clear to all the conclusions such groups of people jump to to state such stupid shit publicly. As it is with all matters conservative (including the "Lost Cause of the South"), conservatives have never stopped filing lawsuits designed to chip away, distract, hinder, and ultimately end affirmative action (see a conservative-led majority SCOTUS - put in power by the crooked politics of a republican-led senate under Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell).

BTW, I have asked you several times thereabouts when has this country ever done away with "affirmative action" for whites? The silence is deafening!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.214  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.213    11 months ago
BTW, I have asked you several times thereabouts when has this country ever done away with "affirmative action" for whites? The silence is deafening!

Please don’t go deaf.  I tried to respond to your question in 3.1.162 but I haven’t seen your response.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.215  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.211    11 months ago
The opening made by an affirmative action policy is inclusive because it let/s in to predominantly white campuses people who were not there before.

Yeah, I bet good money someone denied a spot because of AA is really feeling included.

There simply is no good argument for discrimination today. 

And that is exactly what AA is. High time it was stopped for admission to college.

Quotas are ridiculous anyways.

Diversity for the sheer sake of diversity serves no one well.

For all the words you included in your post, the questions still begs to be answered:

Exactly how is it inclusive to exclude a more-qualified candidate based on race again?

Is past discrimination really a justification for discrimination today?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.216  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.208    11 months ago
There are, I think, two answers to the frequently voiced concern that the Law School's educational processes will be diluted through
the infusion of a substantial number of students who, however promising in long-run terms, are not yet sufficiently prepared academically to compete on equal terms with the general run of their fellow-students.

First, it is the view of the faculty that the school's educational processes are unlikely to be impaired if the number of
students with prior educational deficiencies is a minor fraction of the total student body.

Second, it seems, in any event, reasonable to expect that the number of black applicants who are well prepared academically will increase markedly within the next few years, as a corollary of the increasing number of blacks matriculating at first rate colleges; and it is a fair expectation that our Law School can draw a substantial number of those who are highly qualified--or at least that we can do so if, by enlarging our scholarship and loan resources, we can help meet the ever-increasing financial needs of a category of students who are, by and large, in particularly straitened circumstances.

It would, of course, be misleading to suggest that (a) the problem of educational deficiency is confined to blacks (and Mexican-Americans, and Indians, and other racial minorities), or (b) the obligation of leadership-training is racially circumscribed. Of course, the problem and the obligation seem most acute with respect to those
groups which have longest and most effectively been set apart from the main currents of American life. But--as the Law School Committee of the University Council persuasively argued in a recent report--the considerations which have led the faculty to enlarge its readiness to accept academically under-prepared applicants of high
promise are not confined to blacks or other disadvantaged racial minorities; these same considerations, the committee has observed, argue for greater solicitude with respect to, e.g., white applicants from Appalachia or the rural south.

The Black Quota at Yale University 1969 LOUIS H. POLLA  Dean

Of course, some conservatives have been suing for decades to hamper, cripple, diminish, and finally through immoral trickery of Mitch McConnell twice over has taken precedent-setting control of the Supreme Court of the United States. Making it evidentially clear that fairness is not what some conservatives wish for others, while taking power for themselves.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
3.1.217  Sean Treacy  replied to  CB @3.1.211    11 months ago
Before Affirmative Action blacks and browns were unable to qualify to get into elite colleges and universities for a host of reason

Not true. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.218  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.216    11 months ago
The Black Quota at Yale University 1969 LOUIS H. POLLA  Dean

Not sure how relevant today some letters that are 54 years old are, but I found this in them:

From your remarks and those of Dean Poor, I understand that 43
black students have been admitted to next fall's class, of whom 5
qualified under the regular standards and 38 did not. You anticipate
that half this group will actually enroll, thus furnishing 22 black
students in the first year class of 165, of whom perhaps 3 will have
qualified under the regular standards and 19 will not. You also said
THE BLACK QUOTA AT YALE LAW SCHOOL ,iS
that the future policyof the Law School will be to admit 10 per cent
of each entering class without regard to qualification under regular
standards. It thus appears that the demand of the Black Law Students Union that 10 per cent of the entering class be black has been
more than met. It also appears that 38 fully-quali_ed applicants for
admission to Yale Law School have been rejected solely because
they are not members of a minority race. Under current policy the
admission ratio for black applicants (50 per cent) is 5 times the
admission ratio for other applicants (10 per cent).
This new policy represents a radical departure from that set out
in the 1968 Yale Law School catalogue: "Admission is based entirely on a judgment as to the applicant's promise of professional
distinction." It is clearly apparent that to this judgment has been
added the criterion of race.
With the adoption of its new admission policy the Law School has
taken a long step toward the practice of apartheid and the maintenance of two law schools under one roof. Already there has been
established in the Law School building a Black Law Students Union
lounge with furniture and law books provided by the school. And I
learned from Dean Poor that the 12 black students in the present first
year class who were admitted under relaxed standards have not done
well academically. Dean Poor attributed this deficiency to the preoccupation of these students with racial activities. I think it equally
logieal to attribute their preoccupation with raeial activities to their
lack of qualification to compete on even terms in the study of law.
Next year the Law School will have in its midst approximately 30
students who were not required to qualify for admission under the
regular standards because of their race. Of the 128 admittees to next
fall's entering class who had accepted in early April, the highest
ranking of 13 minority admitees stood in an 8-way tie for 98th place
under the regular criteria for admission. Predictably, most of these
students will find themselves unable to compete in law studies on
even terms with the other students, who have been admitted on the
basis of demonstrated academic performance and aptitude for logical
reasoning.
The immediate damage to the standards of Yale Law School needs
no elaboration. But beyond this, it seems to me the admission policy
adopted by the Law School faculty will serve to perpetuate the very
ideas and preiudicos it is designed to combat. 

Discrimination is not a good thing and should be refrained from.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.219  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.216    11 months ago
Of course, some conservatives have been suing for decades to hamper, cripple, diminish, and finally through immoral trickery of Mitch McConnell twice over has taken precedent-setting control of the Supreme Court of the United States.

Since you list no cases, I have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't think you know what cases you are talking about.

Whining about Mitch McConnell is kind of 2016, don't you think?

I really don't know who you think controls the thinking of SCOTUS members or makes them vote a certain way on cases.

That is a far-fetched notion of insane proportions.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.220  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.218    11 months ago

Discrimination rights wrongs.

War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.221  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.220    11 months ago

Budget increases are decreases.

Defund the police, but make us safer.

Pay off college loans with taxpayer money but don't use taxpayer money to build a wall to protect ourselves.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.222  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.221    11 months ago

The Inflation Reduction Act whips inflation now.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.223  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.208    11 months ago
let's lower the standards for all so we produce yet more incapable people.

Capable people is so last century.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.224  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.212    11 months ago

Go for it! Did affirmative action aid them as well? Tell us all about it to your heart's contentment!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.225  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.214    11 months ago
Whites, especially wealthy whites have had historical advantages since their arrival. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.226  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.215    11 months ago

This comment is full of shit. Once again proof that you are about as serious as a soup sandwich.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.227  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.224    11 months ago

In 3.1.212 I asked you, "Why do you leave out Asian and Muslim Americans? How about Jewish Americans?

Given that, I don't understand your comment:

Go for it! Did affirmative action aid them as well? Tell us all about it to your heart's contentment!

What do you mean?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.228  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.225    11 months ago

Yes, you copied n' pasted my comment well.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.229  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.218    11 months ago

Good on you for reading a portion of the article. I wonder if you read the rest of the PDF file-did you?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.230  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.226    11 months ago
This comment is full of shit. Once again proof that you are about as serious as a soup sandwich.

Is this your version of a serious argument?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.231  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.229    11 months ago
Good on you for reading a portion of the article.

And now you can explain what point you thought you made by posting it.

In your own words, but related to what is actually in your source.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.232  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.226    11 months ago
as serious as a soup sandwich.

Some years ago, I tried and failed to learn to eat soup with a knife.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.233  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.202    11 months ago
Why would I believe anything you foolishly say I believe

You believe a massive amount of very foolish claptrap.  How is one supposed to tell where that ends?  

Then that would mean for fifty years a president, congress, and "another" SCOTUS agreed institutionalized racism (your turn of choice) was practical and serviceable.

Yes.  And they have been proven wrong.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.234  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.233    11 months ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif  

Carpenters - We've Only Just Begun

The struggle continues. . . Jack. The struggle. . . continues.  Same as it ever was all those years gone by.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.235  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.203    11 months ago
So are those minorities you deign to pretend to be ignorant about their needs and historical backgrounds.  But, carry on!  Keep pretending. It's horrifiably disconnected and yet somehow  amusing.

The tribulations of your ancestors do not entitle you to enact retribution upon everyone else 4 generations later.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.236  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.235    11 months ago

Why not?  Some conservatives are the same as their ancestors. Same conflicts, same battles, same wars. The more times change. . . the more they stay the same.

?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trefor.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F03%2Fblack-skull-and-crossbones-isolated-on-white_fJjEfWjd.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a3f8725ff3280e48738a478795e3f814d5c3b3420193100ecd9140947df47fd2&ipo=images then       ?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trefor.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F03%2Fblack-skull-and-crossbones-isolated-on-white_fJjEfWjd.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a3f8725ff3280e48738a478795e3f814d5c3b3420193100ecd9140947df47fd2&ipo=images now.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.237  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.236    11 months ago
Well, it's been funny buns of a good week spent talking about affirmative action, but now its time to turn the page of tomorrow. Bye!

So much for bye.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.238  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.237    11 months ago

Well, you know how it goes. . . it's a lengthy good bye.  It's not like I have to hop a flight or go on holiday or anything like that, friend Drinker! 

Just sitting here thinking how pathetic (and ironic) it is that some conservatives can not seem to be truly happy while a liberal is independently living free and clear. One would think the so-called "freedom-lovers" would love that liberals can think for themselves to fix their problems without having to depend on conservatives. . . sadly all conservatives do is get in the way; block the way; and, work overtime taking joy out of the lives of others who do not even care what type of lives conservatives live. Oh the irony, of how stuck on 'stupid' life was, is, and probably always will be in this country.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.239  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.238    11 months ago
sadly all conservatives do is get in the way

Don’t you mean pathetic or ironic?

and probably always will be in this country.

As opposed to what other country?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.240  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.234    11 months ago
Same as it ever was all those years gone by.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsSpAOD6K8

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.241  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.236    11 months ago
Some conservatives are the same as their ancestors. Same conflicts, same battles, same wars.

Hardly, by what metrics?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.242  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.237    11 months ago

It’s a double secret bye.    

Similar to the double secret ignore some of our friends here like to employ.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.243  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.238    11 months ago
it is that some conservatives can not seem to be truly happy while a liberal is independently living free and clear. 

Oh, you are free to do that.

And some people just won't be swayed by emotions.

Why are you so concerned with some conservative's happiness anyway?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.244  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @3.1.238    11 months ago
truly happy while a liberal is independently living free and clear.

If a liberal is LIVING "free and clear" then why are they ALWAYS complaining about, well, EVERYTHING?  One would think that if you were "free and clear" you all wouldn't bitch so much about trivial shit.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.245  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.244    11 months ago

It is always some vague references to liberties "stolen" by conservatives despite the number of liberals in Congress.

What you will never get is what liberties stolen by whom and how they did it.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.246  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.245    11 months ago

If they even casually try to identify what was stolen and by who, they would quickly realize that they have been crying over nothing. 

For example, Liberals cried for years about equality.  Well, doing away with the abomination that Affirmative Action turned into, is that equality.  Now they are crying about that.  

It's all about playing the victim.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.247  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.240    11 months ago

Love that song! "Same as it ever was. . . ."  And yes, I knew and listened to the band in the Eighties.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.248  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.241    11 months ago

Same as it ever was. Just a different era of fighting the same tired old conflicts, battles, and wars for another generation. I have watched this shit play out all my life and now that I am old(er) I finally realize just how selfish and greedy some republicans and conservatives can be and that they will never of their own volition leave liberals to live in peace.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.249  CB  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.242    11 months ago

Drive-by!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.250  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.244    11 months ago

You're one to talk about whining about everything, Trump supporter.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.251  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.246    11 months ago
It's all about playing the victim.

Well, if you do that, it magically absolves you from any responsibility in your life--it is always someone holding you down and taking shit from you.

It is a weak, pathetic argument.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.252  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.251    11 months ago

It always is.  Then when things don't go the way they we see the childish bullshit come out like in 3.1.550.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.253  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.252    11 months ago

Childish insults seems to be the last resort when weak arguments are destroyed.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.254  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.252    11 months ago

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif     It is clear discussing anything with many conservatives here is a waste of time and effort, because all some conservatives look to find is: "liberal tears."

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.255  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.254    11 months ago

Can't help but noticing those liberal tears when they are all over the place.

Not everyone is some 'victim' and the sooner some people realize that, the better.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.256  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.255    11 months ago

Wow, You need to get off your "liberal tears soapbox" and engage in honest debate and not just talking points. And more to the point, I am not ever going to allow you to engage in emotionless 'chit-chat' with me where you present ideology over practical reality-where we all live including conservatives.  When you are ready, let's go. (Although, I fear this article has ran its course and needs to fall back now.)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.257  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.256    11 months ago
Wow, You need to get off your "liberal tears soapbox" and engage in honest debate and not just talking points.

222j75.jpg

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.258  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  CB @3.1.254    11 months ago

Nobody is looking for "liberal tears".  We wade through them on a daily basis.  Maybe if liberals would stop complaining about shit they want then complaining when they get it, this wouldn't be a problem.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.259  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.258    11 months ago

I don't even mind the whining so much if they would just present some specific facts.

Instead what we get is some vague crap about how "rights, privilege, and station" are being TAKEN by conservatives.

When asked for specifics, they are NEVER forthcoming.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
3.1.260  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.259    11 months ago

That's what happens when we deal with those who cannot separate feelings from facts.  Then they claim that they want to engage in honest debate while in the midst of a temper tantrum.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.261  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.236    11 months ago
Why not? 

Thank you for admitting that to be your goal.  

Some conservatives are the same as their ancestors. Same conflicts, same battles, same wars.

You say that, and then you are never, ever, ever able to define any actual persecution you personally endure because of your race.  You end up trying to substitute "lack of preferential treatment" in its stead.

The fact is you are still trying to fight the same battles from 1960, but they don't exist anymore.  A whole new set of battles has emerged that you are utterly unwilling to acknowledge. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
3.1.262  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @3.1.238    11 months ago
 liberals can think for themselves to fix their problems without having to depend on conservatives

What problem have they fixed?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.263  Sparty On  replied to  CB @3.1.249    11 months ago

Keep running …..

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.264  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.257    11 months ago

Wow, there was your opening to start over again, and you post a "THINK SAFETY FIRST" meme.jrSmiley_97_smiley_image.gif

I must ask: Are some conservatives simply shells without the talking points?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.265  CB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @3.1.258    11 months ago

bg,f8f8f8-flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u9.jpg In the words of Janet Jackson: "It's all for you."  (Thanks, not needed or desired.)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.266  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.265    11 months ago

How bizarre
How bizarre, how bizarre

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C2cMG33mWVY

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.267  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.261    11 months ago

I won't indulge you, Jack_TX. You live in the same country I live in. If you choose to ignore the plights of liberals for your own "conveniences" don't let it surprise when a liberal or several liberals bring them back up to a level of your awareness. That said, I don't have to detail what conservatives are doing, attempting to do, or long-term strategizing to bring about as some conservatives should keep themselves reasonably informed about what it is they are supporting.

Affirmative Action has been fought AGAINST by conservatives since it was conceived-as not being constitutional. Why? Because it is not in the constitution and conservatives at the constitutional convention would have seen to it that it not be in the constitution had it been brought up. 

Conservatives have no interest in justice or freedom for anyone who is not a conservative. Let's cut the bullshit about right and wrong. Some conservatives morality is subjective and one-way:  for conservatives to process and receive, liberals need not apply.

Going forward, some conservatives will not waste my time droning on and on about shit they should know and know well because they are the perpetrators of it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.268  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.262    11 months ago

Told you. Evidence of some conservatives pretending to know nothing and wasting other people time to explain it to the 'rocks' only to be dismissed out of turn.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.269  CB  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.263    11 months ago

You're firing blanks.  /s

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.270  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.264    11 months ago

I encourage you to look again. 

it really isn't about safety at all if you look again.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.271  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.267    11 months ago
Conservatives have no interest in justice or freedom for anyone who is not a conservative. Let's cut

that is silly. of course we care about justice and freedom.

let's not pretend they are taking something from you when they aren't.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.272  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.264    11 months ago

Here is an accurate summary of your talking points.

Conservatives bad.

Conservatives stole freedoms from me but I can't say which ones or even how they did it.

There you go.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.273  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.272    11 months ago

Thank you, I’ve never been able too succulently summarize his talking points. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.274  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.273    11 months ago

oh there will be lots and lots of words and fury signifying nothing.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
3.1.275  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @3.1.269    11 months ago

Vasectomy?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.276  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.270    11 months ago

I don't care about a meme, Texan1211 or your 'combat' persona which thinks anything at all you write is worthwhile and "winning."  Get over it. Move on. Stop with the baiting questions and "hemming and hawing" comments and write something REAL that is heartfelt, else shallowness is all that comes forth. And none of that kind of SHIT will be remembered once the article is let go.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.277  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.272    11 months ago

Some conservatives are bad. Some conservatives do steal freedoms from other citizens because stupidly they think the only good freedoms derive from the conservative mind. And as for telling you or any other conservative what is stolen and not granted to begin with would be a waste of time because conservatives have been bitchin and moanin; waiting and watching; finally, stealing and deploying whatever power and influence they can amass to do what it is we hear/see/experience happening right now in politics, opinions, and law.

If you don't know ask a(nother) conservative. I ain't wasting time talking to some 'rocks' who don't give a damn about liberals yesterday, today, or tomorrow.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.278  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @3.1.271    11 months ago

Some conservatives care about conservative-leaning justice and freedom and the rest of us can eat shit.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
3.1.279  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.273    11 months ago

Coming from a friend, I am surprised. Why did you wish to be friends again? I ask because you didn't bother to explain this time around or the last time. :)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
3.1.280  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.276    11 months ago
I don't care about a meme, Texan1211 

Probably carry more weight had you not brought it up then.

you can repeat silly lines about how your rights, freedoms and standing have been stolen from you from now to Doomsday and it simply is tired rhetoric.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.2  Sparty On  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3    11 months ago
HEAVILY favor those kids with access to better schools and resources since most of the time they will outperform those without those same resources

Agreed which just shows the sorry state of our public school system in the USA.   In theory, all who attend public schools should get an equal education.    Or at least something close enough as to not disadvantage them to any serious degree in the college selection process.

 
 
 
Thrawn 31
Professor Guide
3.2.1  Thrawn 31  replied to  Sparty On @3.2    11 months ago
In theory, all who attend public schools should get an equal education.    Or at least something close enough as to not disadvantage them to any serious degree in the college selection process.

Now back to reality.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.2.2  Sparty On  replied to  Thrawn 31 @3.2.1    11 months ago

Yep and whose fault is that?

Certainly not the kids being subjected to an inferior product.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4  CB    11 months ago

Wow. Thanks Clarence Thomas, the UN-Thurgood Marshall black justice on the Supreme Court. So here we go back to the radical 60's consciousness days all over again. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4    11 months ago

No.

Now colleges can't discriminate based on race.

That's a win for all unless you think equality is an evil conservative plot.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.1  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1    11 months ago

I think (some) conservatism is an evil plot. Again, affirmative action, lifted qualified students up to where their talents, intellect, and brilliance can be seen, felt, and heard in society. You can call it discrimination all you want! In which case, it would be POSITIVE discrimination which is a whole lot better than its counterpart!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.2  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.1    11 months ago

Discrimination is discrimination no matter how hard you try to sugarcoat it.

And here all along I thought the real goal was equality.

I see I am wrong about the true goal.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.3  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.2    11 months ago

Spin all you want; it will all end up in a court yet again sooner or later. Watch for the 'fat man' to sing again!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.4  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.3    11 months ago
Spin all you want;

Why do you consider it spinning when I provide you with facts?

Stop being so cryptic--WHAT court cases? Where are they? What are they about?

P.S. SCOTUS ruled.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.5  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.4    11 months ago

For now. Court cases happen every day.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.6  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.5    11 months ago
For now. Court cases happen every day.

Well, if you understand how courts work, it is doubtful that any court will deal with AA in college admissions since SCOTUS ruled.

It sounds more like a wish than a fact to me.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.7  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.6    11 months ago

Oh, SCOTUS will be involved one way or another, bet that!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.8  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.7    11 months ago
Oh, SCOTUS will be involved one way or another, bet that!

Oh, they WERE.

They ruled.

Get used to it now.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.9  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.2    11 months ago

Is equality the real goal for conservatives, hell no!   We all know it and now liberal leaders best get about doing something more about this!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.10  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.8    11 months ago

SCOTUS will be involved again: may be because of conservative over-reach and going too far. Not a damn thing is settled law, as this AA reversal is exhibit 1 of this very statement.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.11  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.9    11 months ago

How do you define equality?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.10    11 months ago

What is exhibit 2?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.13  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.11    11 months ago

The definition of equality is not the point of my comment. Let's move on. Conveniently, the point of the comment went over your head. (Hint: Inequality is more like what conservative are striving to achieve.)  By now we all know that conservatives have long feigned liberty and freedom with a hidden motive of prejudice and injustice.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.14  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.12    11 months ago

It has not make its proper appearance yet, but most likely conservative activists will get prior indications and notices!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.14    11 months ago

Uh-huh.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.16  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.15    11 months ago

You've got it! :)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.1.17  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.1.13    11 months ago
The definition of equality is not the point of my comment.

It escapes you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.18  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.1.17    11 months ago

Ditto.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.19  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.9    11 months ago
We all know it and now liberal leaders best get about doing something more about this!

“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

― Ronald Reagan

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.20  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.14    11 months ago
It has not make its proper appearance yet, but most likely conservative activists will get prior indications and notices!

yes, it must all be part of the very vast right-wing conservative plot to take your rights, privilege and station away, right?

Oh boy...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.21  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.20    11 months ago

It's great that you support CRT in colleges and universities, same-sex marriage, and a women's right to privacy in child birth, eh? That's great, Texan! Tell us more about how you have fallen out with the republican party!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.22  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.21    11 months ago
It's great that you support CRT in colleges and universities,

I don't really care what adults choose to study.

same-sex marriage

I don't care who marries what.

and a women's right to privacy in child birth

It has never been a secret that I support privacy in child birth.

BTW, I also support abortion. I think a woman should have as many as she wants and can afford.

That's great, Texan!

Thanks! I'll rest easier tonight just basking in the glow of your personal stamp of approval.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.23  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.22    11 months ago

But, and it's a big but, you anecdotal choices aside, you 'seat' yourself in the well of a party that does considerable and great harm to the lives of individuals who do not share (apparently) your view of those three key issues.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.24  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.23    11 months ago
But, and it's a big but, you anecdotal choices aside, you 'seat' yourself in the well of a party that does considerable and great harm to the lives of individuals who do not share (apparently) your view of those three key issues.

Ah, yes, the perpetual mythical victim routine.

Doesn't fly with me.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.25  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.24    11 months ago

It does not matter if it "flies" are not! It's a fact and it can't be denied. As a conservative, republican, and defender of the policies which otherwise interfere and damage AMERICAN lives, these positions you stand for will be written about accordingly and appropriately.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.26  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.25    11 months ago
It does not matter if it "flies" are not!

It matters to me. I don't want to be subjected to the litany of alleged abuses suffered at the hands of some conservatives which can never be cited.

It's a waste of time, especially as many times as it has been repeated without facts.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.1.27  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.26    11 months ago

So you SAY!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.28  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.27    11 months ago

Yes, and as I have proven!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.29  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.13    11 months ago
(Hint: Inequality is more like what conservative are striving to achieve.)

False, of course.

What conservative ever told you that?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.2  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4    11 months ago
So here we go back to the radical 60's consciousness days all over again. 

Enjoy your fantasy trip while the rest of us reside in reality.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.2.1  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.2    11 months ago

Nay! The sixties were a reality, and I am pretty sure you were a part of the dawning of the age of Aquarius! :)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.2.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.2.1    11 months ago

Exactly, the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 2024, could be a real as it was in 1968.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.2.3  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.2.1    11 months ago
The sixties were a reality, and I am pretty sure you were a part of the dawning of the age of Aquarius!

Seriously?

I meant that it is a fantasy if you think we are returning to the 60's.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5  Drinker of the Wry    11 months ago

If we really want diversity of qualified applicants, throw out race and add class and region.  Family income levels without regard to race can be taken into account and true diversity includes kids for urban, suburban, small and midsize towns and rural regions.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    11 months ago

Diversity wasn't the only goal of AA.

In a poorly-designed attempt to right past wrongs, some folks thought discrimination was the cure FOR discrimination.

I swear, one couldn't even make something so stupid up.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.1  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1    11 months ago

Wow. So says conservatives who have never discriminated against anything, anywhere, at anytime! Including a favorite beverage, or shoe color that they will never wear. Or any of a 'thousand' things they choose to NEVER do in life. Talk about making up stupid. And then getting trying to get fierce about it. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.2  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.1    11 months ago
Wow. So says conservatives who have never discriminated against anything, anywhere, at anytime!

Why do you insist on making shit up?

Intellectually dishonest and pretty damn weak.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.3  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.2    11 months ago

So conservatives DO discriminate, eh? Hmm . . .what are you complaining about again?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.4  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.3    11 months ago
So conservatives DO discriminate, eh?

Okay. Here it is AGAIN!

YES, SOME CONSERVATIVES DISCRIMINATE. SO DO SOME LIBERALS. SO DO SOME WHO DON'T IDENTIFY AS EITHER.

I was not complaining, just informing you that AA IS discrimination.

Take it or leave it as you will, but walk away with at least the truth of the matter.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.5  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.4    11 months ago

We know that AA is discrimination; a type allowed by law to correct a past wrong in society. At least it was doing so, until a conservative majority SCOTUS decided to renege on a prior court decision just to APPEASE other conservatives who bitch and moan about 99.99 percent of things liberals write and do on the bench and off it!

Since now you personally admit YES, SOME CONSERVATIVES DISCRIMINATE it would appear you have been intellectually dishonest and pretty damn weak in making its denial/s.

Not nice.

I have been telling you comment after comment on this thread that there are POSITIVE forms of discrimination and NEGATIVE forms of discrimination. And the two things deserve recognition for their nuances. 

Now you agree, with me as you have no choice but to do so, because it's a FACT!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.6  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.5    11 months ago
We know that AA is discrimination; a type allowed by law to correct a past wrong in society.

And now it is no longer necessary. You should be happier that it achieved its goals.

Since nowyou personally admitYES, SOME CONSERVATIVES DISCRIMINATEit would appear you have been intellectually dishonest and pretty damn weak in making its denial/s

Now look, we both know that is nothing but a woeful lie. I have not denied it, that is just you inventing things you WISH I had wrote and then poorly attempting to argue that which you invent.

I could ask for proof for yet another scurrilous claim, but you can't provide it for what is clearly nothing more than your misguided opinion, so I won't bother to ask for something you will completely and utterly ignore yet once again.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.7  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.5    11 months ago
conservative majority SCOTUS decided to renege on a prior court decision just to APPEASE

Renege? Interesting term, but I bet it is all one-sided.

Unless you think SCOTUS reneged when overturning:

  1. Hammer v. Dagenhart (1918)
  2. Minersville School District v. Gobitis (1940)
  3. Plessy v. Ferguson (1896)
  4. Betts v. Brady (1942)
  5. Bowers v. Hardwick (1986)
  6. Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce (1990)
  7. Baker v. Nelson (1972)
  8. Roe v. Wade (1973) and Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey (1992)
 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.8  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.6    11 months ago
And now it is no longer necessary. You should be happier that it achieved its goals.

Do/did you even care if it achieves/ed its goals? I think not! Some conservatives have spent their lives trying to take back/down every type of support the system used/es to self-correct for mistakes and errors against its citizens. 

Texan1211   Professor Principal

3.1.38  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @3.1.36    yesterday

Let's not. I am growing bored with the usual tactics--making claims without facts, then getting pissy when called out on the same claims because you can NOT justify discrimination no matter how hard you try.

Don't try that crap with me any more.


Texan1211  Professor Principal

4.1.2  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.1.1    yesterday

Discrimination is discrimination no matter how hard you try to sugarcoat it.

And here all along I thought the real goal was equality.

I see I am wrong about the true goal.


And so you admit that discrimination has its positive and negative ends of the spectrum. Good! You don't need to thank me for drawing it out of you. . .I don't need any applause for what I do here!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
5.1.9  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @5.1.8    11 months ago
I don't need any applause for what I do here!

I agree.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.10  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.8    11 months ago
Do/did you even care if it achieves/ed its goals? I think not!

I don't know that my opinion mattered much to SCOTUS, but hey, whatever you imagine.

Some conservatives have spent their lives trying to take back/down every type of support the system used/es to self-correct for mistakes and errors against its citizens. 

Some liberals have spent their lives trying to convince everyone that certain folks are perpetual victims and that justifies any discrimination now.

And so you admit that discrimination has its positive and negative ends of the spectrum.

I won't attempt to justify wrongdoing because I don't think the means are justified by the results. I'll leave such shenanigans to the unprincipled folk.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.11  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.10    11 months ago
I won't attempt to justify wrongdoing because I don't think the means are justified by the results. I'll leave such shenanigans to the unprincipled folk.

Oh but conservatives do, sir! Really, republicans do. Principle be damned.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.12  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.11    11 months ago
Oh but conservatives do, sir!

So you SAY, but I PROVED you are doing it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.13  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.12    11 months ago
So you SAY

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.14  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.13    11 months ago

Nice quote, does that mean you are admitting to it now?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.15  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.14    11 months ago

Somebody is digressing.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5.1.16  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5.1.9    11 months ago

I agree ….. jeers perhaps but certainly not applause.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.17  CB  replied to  Sparty On @5.1.16    11 months ago

Perhaps?   256   You can do better than that!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.18  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @5.1.15    11 months ago
Somebody is digressing.

I have tried to no avail to get you to stop.............

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Principal
5.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @5    11 months ago
If we really want diversity of qualified applicants, throw out race and add class and region.

Which was the goal of Affirmative Action when JFK signed the EO.

The term "affirmative acti on" was first used in the United States in " Executive Order No. 10925", signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961, which included a provision that government contractors "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated [fairly] during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin".  It was used to promote actions that achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to "hire without regard to race, religion and national origin" and "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin."  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibited discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Neither executive order nor The Civil Rights Act authorized group preferences.

There's a lot there but I don't see a damn thing about giving preference to anybody based on race, creed, color, or national origin.  It morphed into the perception that somebody is owed something based on what ever was the "hot topic" of the day.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6  CB    11 months ago

Well, it's been funny buns of a good week spent talking about affirmative action, but now its time to turn the page of tomorrow. Bye! (Chuckles.)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  CB @6    11 months ago
Well, it's been funny buns of a good week spent talking about affirmative action, but now its time to turn the page of tomorrow.

Welcome to tomorrow. 

The place with one less discriminatory policy.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
6.2  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @6    11 months ago

Happy trails to you, until we meet again

Happy trails to you, keep smilin' till then

Happy trails to you, till we meet again

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=vwEQ33B0hoo

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6.2.1  CB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.2    11 months ago

Wow. You too, friend.

 
 

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