Would You Trust Your Doctor if He Believed the Earth Was Flat?
I'm piggy backing on a conversation from another thread. I bowed out of that convo but thought some of the points brought up were important. So this discussion is to get your thoughts about it.
I personally would not trust a doctor who thinks the Earth is only 6,000 years old. I personally know a geologist who buys into that. Fortunately, he makes maps and that's it. He actually has a master's degree in geology. I wonder how he defended that thesis?
Trust is important between a doctor and patient. If you believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old then that doctor is probably right for you. But I want a doctor who took biology, chemistry, mathematics, and physics when s/he was working on his/her BS. I took the same classes and certainly didn't walk away with the idea that the theory of evolution was just something that was taught because it was in the syllabus.
What do you think? Tell us your thoughts.
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That image is my ankle after 2 surgeries. One for the pin and screw mechanism that was placed to put my ankle back together and a second one for a skin graft because of what happened after my accident and the orthopedist put me back together. I thought it was appropriate for this discussion
Oooooouch! Damn! That looks, um, not so good...
Hurt like hell
I got 1 plate and 5 screws from surgery on my left ankle. it was the 2nd time I broke it, 48 years apart. as far as stupid people go, I have zero patience with them now and I'm not the type to let their ignorance pass without commenting.
I'm trying very hard not to repeat the incident that led to a compound fracture.
I now have a fear of rocks
I stepped down 4 inches out of a porta-potty onto black ice. >snap< surgery 10 days later and 2 months on the couch. it still fucking hurts. CBD's help, but I can't use them because they'll show up in a UA, and I don't want to risk my government security clearances with a hot piss test.
Mr G was telling me where our driveway extension was going and I started arguing with him about it. Not about constructing it but the exact location. I didn't think he could construct in that spot because it was on the neighbor's property. Anyway he tells me to put my shoes on and let's go for a walk in the woods and I'll show you. Did I put on my work boots? Oh no. Sneakers (which I broke, btw). As soon as I stepped in the woods I stepped on a large rock. Went down and started moaning. I didn't think it was that bad until I looked down and saw my foot was pointed west when it should have been pointing north.
Alcohol might have been involved
why would your husband wait until you were shit-faced to send you into the woods?
$100K life insurance policy
That is both impressive and cool. How is your mobility?
it hasn't hurt her ass kicking ability here...
So that's how she broke it.
It's actually very good. I still walk faster than most people I work with and they are always getting in my way
Crikey trout...you can tell people that you were attacked by a shark or something really exciting...
Glad you are back on your feet or should I say fins again...
LOL! I've been thinking about getting a tattoo of a shark swimming away from the scar with bits of flesh in his teeth
Don't let her fool you all. She got that from a knock down drag out cage fight.
She won even with that.
So...
she's got a game of thrones scar, mine is more frankensteinish.
trolling, taunting, and off topic comments may be removed at the discretion of group mods. NT members that vote up their own comments or continue to disrupt the conversation risk having all of their comments deleted. please remember to quote the person(s) to whom you are replying to preserve continuity of this seed.
Hell no I would not trust any doctor who is a flat earther.
Me neither. A flat earther (or YEC) is irrational to a degree by default and therefore does not generate trust. Any trust must be earned, most likely with greater effort.
Yep Hell No sums up my feelings as well
Hell to the no is right.
I wouldn't trust the skills of anyone that fucking stupid...
No to a Doctor or anybody else
I thought it was an interesting question. If the doctor was recommended by other doctors for a particular reason, why wouldn't I have faith in their skills? If I were looking for a primary care doctor and he/she decided to inform me of their thoughts on things not related to medicine that I found objectionable, I would find someone else.
Because you are capable of separating someone's personally-held beliefs with their professional qualifications.
I would question the science credentials of any professional who bought into that level of nonsense.
As is your right.
But that wouldn't necessarily have a thing to do with his actual abilities to be a good doctor.
True, but it might. It would indicate that the doctor may not take science he's studied at face value. Perhaps he dismissed the medical science against the use of leeches during open heart surgery and thinks he knows better just like how he knows the earth is flat or only 6,000 years old despite all evidence to the contrary. I don't know if I'd want to take that chance if I'm the one on the operating table.
Irregardless of their accreditations or status among their peers?
One can always make up fantastical theories and situations to fit one's needs.
Fact is, you are simply ignoring the doctor taking an oath and going to school for years and years. His personal beliefs do not hinder his ability to give medical care that is appropriate and the same as would be prescribed by an atheist doctor, or a doctor of any religion.
Riiiiighhtt, because he would be a prominent cardiologist, highly recommended no doubt.....
Well, if someone is capable of believing something totally outrageous (e.g. a flat Earth, a 6,000 year Earth, terrestrial exolife, ...) that would cause me to question the whole package.
Let's say your surgeon shares with you how careful he must be when dealing with the exolife that is infesting our planet by taking over the bodies of human beings.
Do you go allow this individual surgical access to your body? I absolutely would not. I would be looking for another surgeon immediately.
Substitute any number of nutty beliefs here and you will have a list of questions with which to experiment.
That's a reasonable thought. I did have a PCM who was quite religious but he was the one that recommended my children get the HPV vaxx. He was a good doctor but never pushed his beliefs on me. He also lined me up with great specialists when I needed them
If he/she is a flat earther then they probably use leeches for cures. I'll pass.
Actually leeches can be used to remove copper from the blood.
Well, my skin coloring is kinda copper colored but I don't need any leeches to confirm that. I'll keep my blood just the way it is, thanks anyhow.
Morning.. actually we use leeches here for medical use..just y'day there was an article how in Perth they were used to save a little girls finger that had been ripped off in a water skiing accident.
It saved her finger. They use them to draw excess blood out and the leeches inject an anti coagulant to keep the blood circulation going..
She is a very lucky 10 year old... they are also used here for other procedures...
Leeches are not my cup of tea but if they can save your limb or life...I am game..
Don't they still use them to reduce swelling from infections?
They might believe sin causes disease and prayer is a cure.
Not sure of what is meant by "flat earther". Many highly qualified people in all kinds of professions have strongly held religious beliefs
Of course some do. The difference is, many do not reject sound science in favor of dogma or use dogma as an explanation. An example is Dr. Francis Collins, a renowned scientist who is also a devout Christian.
But what religion(s) preach the belief that the earth is flat?
Flat Earthers cite from the Bible things like:
Generally speaking, I do not view these nutcases as part of a particular denomination of Christianity but they do appear to be religious types. I view the flat Earthers more as a cult of conspiracy theorists.
Flat Earther = individual who believes that the Earth is flat and that the global Earth is a worldwide conspiracy.
Well of course it is! The Earth is flat!
Morning..to be honest I could not care less what they believe or don't believe in...
If they are qualified and can fix the problem then go for it...
How many people believe we walk around upside down here in the land down under?? And how come we don't fall off the planet..
As for 6,000 years old someone had better tell our Kooris that..they have been here for 50,000 years.
EXACTLY!
To be honest, I have never talked to any doctor about such things. That I was using anyway.
Cuz you have velcro feet, just a guess.
I know that to be true since I had to return mine to Canberra when I moved back to the US.
I am actually getting some new Velcro feet for Christmas...we renew it every year..
Even Fozzy bears get it, stops them falling out of trees and becoming "drop bears"..🐨🐨
So funny to talk to someone who knows our sense of humour..🤣
The Roo's aren't happy with velcro feet, kinda inhibits their hopping about.
Yep..we call it "roo glue"..
Good idea posting this as an article. Kudos to Trout Giggles for hosting the discussion.
I also want to participate in the discussion. I am going to use the generic 'you' in my comment so the presentation is easier to follow; it's not intended to be directed toward any specific 'you'.
The issue involves making a choice. The choice is whether or not to trust a doctor. The question is whether or not to trust a doctor that holds a belief you disagree with? You are making the choice. And the criteria for making that choice is your belief (not the doctor's belief). If the doctor holds a belief you agree with then you trust the doctor; if the doctor holds a belief you disagree with you do not trust the doctor.
That leads to another question: Is making a choice based upon the criteria of your belief a rational choice?
The ancillary question that has been raised is can a doctor that holds a belief not supported by science be trusted? In that situation the doctor's belief is being elevated above the doctor's capability and reputational merit as a doctor. But you are still the one making the choice. And your belief is still the criteria for making that choice. You are still making the choice based upon beliefs and not upon merit.
Again that leads to the question: Is making a choice based upon the criteria of your belief a rational choice?
You can also look at it this way. There are good doctors and bad doctors, just like any profession.
So I guess people look at things like that. Their beliefs and history. etc.
My doctor now came from Keesler AFB hospital. He was military. Really nice but no nonsense. Would probably never dare to talk his personal beliefs with me.
Not when it fails to consider the doctor's education, reputation, experience, etc..
It would simply never occur to me to ask a doctor what his personal views on religion or science are. I want to know where he attended school, where he interned, what papers he might have published, any positions he has held, how his patients view him, how his colleagues think of him, etc. You know, pertinent information dealing with his skills as a doctor.
But if he did and you didn't agree with it, would you stop seeing him?
I don't know what I would do. Like I said, I have never discussed things like that with an acting physician.
This was not a question of normal religious beliefs. It makes no sense, for example, to downplay the credentials of an individual based on whether s/he is a Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Protestant, Buddist or Atheist. So all the normal cases categorically are off the table.
The question was about extraordinary beliefs that are simply irrational. Believing the Earth is flat is but one example of an outrageous belief that brings into question the rationality of the individual.
And when dealing with the case of holding outrageous beliefs that defy modern knowledge, I would reject people holding such beliefs commensurate to the service that they are to perform. So at the top of my list, I would reject medical, legal, financial services from someone with an outrageous belief such as a flat Earth. However, I have no problem with flat Earthers washing my car, picking up trash, making a sandwich, stocking shelves, bringing drinks, etc.
Which brings up an interesting point. When first speaking to a new doctor (as a perspective patient)...who here asks them if they are a flat earther?
On the other hand, if the Dr themselves decides to mention it to a new prospective patient...that certainly says a lot about her!
I don't believe anyone said it was, but whatever. Who gets to decide what is normal--you?
Yeah, which makes me wonder why anyone would ask their doctor such random questions unrelated to their own condition.
Reading your posts led me to expect (or at least not be surprised by) such a response.
I prefer to let people's work speak for their qualifications and expertise rather than what they may or may not believe in some other field. But hey, that's just me.
It would seem it is very, very, very important to some---even more important than education, experience, expertise, familiarity with the subject, patient outcomes, etc.
Go figure!
Here's a really excellent article about the "Flat Earthers". (Many of them disagree with each other on certain claims-- but what they all have in common is a belief that the earth is flat).
Are flat-earthers being serious?
Kinda fascinating how these various (irrational and illogical) belief systems work.
Let's establish an example to explore the consequences of basing choices on a criteria of belief.
There is a persistent general belief that women are not capable in STEM fields. Data showing academic performance in STEM fields supports that persistent general belief. Difficulty recruiting women into STEM fields supports that persistent general belief. If you agree with that persistent general belief then that is your belief, too.
Would you trust a woman doctor who believes in feminism? The woman doctor is a vocal supporter and active participant in the politics of feminism.
You are still making the choice. You are still using your belief as criteria for making the choice. If you agree with the woman doctor's belief in feminism then you trust the woman doctor; if you do not agree the woman doctor's belief in feminism then you do not trust the woman doctor.
Is making the choice on the criteria of belief a rational choice?
I was making clear what was being discussed in the genesis of this article.
Can you engage without the incessant juvenile snark? No, Texan, I do not decide what is normal for anyone but myself. But when I make judgments on what is abnormal I will use societal norms as a guide. So, for example, I would consider flat Earth beliefs and terrestrial exolife beliefs to be abnormal. Conspiracy theory type crap.
They would not. That is not the point. These are hypothetical questions to explore the question of abnormal beliefs and the impact said beliefs have on the rationality and competence of the individual as a whole.
In real life, I am aware of a surgeon whose personal dwelling was replete with animal feces (a contractor friend did work for her). She was a pet lover and allowed her pets free reign and for some unknown reason was not at all concerned about cleaning up their mess. And this was not just a few spots, this was sickening.
You may choose to have this surgeon work on you, but I would not. Someone with that level of oddity (and, worse, beyond as per the other examples used here) would cause me to question the package. But, hey, if a flat-Earther or feces tolerant surgeon cutting into you is fine with you then more power to you. These surgeons need patients.
Actually, based upon what you consistently post here, I don't find it all all surprising that the data you seek out and choose to present here on NT finds women to be inferior to men (in any way).
And I could be wrong, but if we were discussing any other minority group, it would not surprise me at all if the data you choose to present here would find the same thing (that those of the minority group's performance would be inferior to that of White people.
I know what the topic is, but thanks.
Can you without the ever-present condescension?
Many very intelligent, capable people have quirks that many would find abhorrent.
Many geniuses have been considered eccentric.
It does nothing to diminish their abilities in their chosen fields.
Pretending that what they believe in one field renders them incapable of competency in another is the hallmark [deleted]
Sure. I do not see how feminism is an irrational belief such as flat-Earth. I would also not lose trust in a doctor simply because she is Hindu or because she believes one political party is better than the other.
You need to go to very bizarre beliefs to stay in the context that originated this article.
There is a persistent general belief that women are not capable in STEM fields. Data showing academic performance in STEM fields supports that persistent general belief.
Difficulty recruiting women into STEM fields supports that persistent general belief.
Well, its nice to see that you are finally admitting you preferences in the type pf data you seek to belief in (that your choice of data is based on your beliefs).
But let's stop for a minute, and look at the actual facts!!!
Difficulty in recruiting women?
This is the latest I've found-- its from the very end of 2018:
For the first time since 2004, more women than men applied to U.S. medical schools, comprising 50.9% of applicants. Women were also the majority of matriculants (new enrollees) to medical school for the second year in a row (51.6% versus 50.7% in 2017).
Well, if a person's belief's were misogynistic (GIYF), then its no surprise that they would only "find" data supporting the notion that women are inferior. And,of course, that would result in it being much more difficult to recruit women for med schools... many fewer women in highly skilled fields such as medicine, for example.
Women now outnumber men in med school
(GFGI)
Nobody here is saying that a human being must be perfect to be competent.
The point is about holding extreme, irrational beliefs and the trust one would have (or lose) in the person as a whole. Not about quirks and eccentricities.
There is a profound difference between someone who likes to play bongos and get nutty (e.g. Dr. Richard Feynman who did this routinely)
... and someone who believes that exolife has infested the Earth by taking over human bodies.
Dr. Feynman is the Physics Nobel Prize winner who essentially unlocked how quantum electro-dynamics works.
The ancillary question is: Would you trust a woman doctor who believes in a paternal ordering of society, especially in home life, and has voiced opposition to feminism?
You are still making the choice. You are still using your belief as criteria for making the choice. If you agree with the woman doctor's belief in a paternal society then you trust the woman doctor; if you do not agree the woman doctor's belief in paternal society then you do not trust the woman doctor.
Is your choice based on the criteria of your belief a rational choice?
See @9.1.19
See @9.1.19
Wow. Just wow. Show me this people who have this "persistent belief" and I will show them very capable engineers, programmers, scientsts, doctors, and nurses
Nerm...reply to the commenter. That is one of my red box rules
Not in my opinion. I'm looking for the Dr with the best skills to fix the problem at hand and that has little to do with a religious belief system or lack thereof.
I spent about ten years in healthcare and dealt almost daily with many different Docs. Some of them are still friends decades later. Most of them i knew held a pretty strong religious belief of some sort
I've been posting comments to show different beliefs by those being judged. I can't help it if people interrupt that chain. And I am not responsible for people jumping to conclusions that they believe are justified. And that's the point of my exercise.
The point of the exercise is to show that you are making the choice whether or not to trust a doctor. The doctor is not making the choice. And you are using the criteria of what you believe to make the choice.
(Please, remember I am using a generic 'you' and not directing comments to a specific 'you'.)
You are judging people based upon your beliefs. Perhaps you think you are judging people on their beliefs but the reality is that you are making the choice and you are using your beliefs to make the choice.
And I keep asking the question: Is your choice based upon your beliefs a rational choice?
Your comments are confusing to me because I don't know who you are talking to. Now that's the last word on the subject. My article, my rules
I [told you that was] the last word on the subject. [No more of the meta]
Nerm's question normalizes the scenario. Originally (what triggered this article) we were talking about trusting someone to perform a serious task. For example, a surgeon who believes the Earth is flat. This is not even a question of simply religious beliefs but rather blatantly irrational beliefs (those that contradict well-founded modern knowledge).
All things equal, if I had a choice between two surgeons and one of them believed that the planet was flat, the choice would be a no-brainer.
Anyone who holds such an irrational belief shakes my confidence in the individual as a whole.
Can't disagree there and i think the flat earth concept is a non sequitur from the start. I know of no Dr that would hold that belief.
The better example is religious beliefs and will yield more realistic results imo.
You knowing of a doctor with an extreme, irrational belief was never the point. The point was about an extreme irrational belief being a red flag about an individual as a whole. 'Flat Earth surgeons' is simply an example of the concept.
I didn't say it was but it is a damn good empirical observation. Which is why i shared it.
Yet there are medical personnel (including doctors) who refuse to be vaccinated against COVID. And you (generic) wouldn't have a choice since you would be seeking emergency care for COVID.
Non sequitor
Why? Doesn't a doctor who refuses to be vaccinated against COVID fit your criteria of irrational belief?
If that is your question then it depends. If the doctor refuses based on a belief in general that the tiny risk of side-effects is greater than the risk of getting COVID then I would consider the doctor to be a quack.
Your ‘no choice’ language suggested a different question.
I see. So the doctor's irrational beliefs are important when choice is involved. Would the doctor's medical care be different when there isn't a choice?
one more frivolous flag and you'll be spending the afternoon getting all your comments reinstated.
NO!
I would not chose a doctor who doesn't know basic biology.
No, I could never trust, nor even want to have anything to do with anybody, even if it were a relative, if they believed the Earth was flat and/or only 6.000 years old. I would think they belonged in a straight jacket in a padded cell.
I do admit that I have posted as a joke on NT comments showing this image and saying "But if that is all you ever saw posted up in your school classrooms you could have been misled...." LOL
So this became a big deal at Hopkins in the Neurology Dept. when Ben Carson was there. He believes that the earth is 6,000 years old despite all the knowledge he knows from DNA. DNA tells the human story and how far we go back as a species we go, and it is way more than 6,000 years. In fact, it's more like 300,000 years.
When his beliefs were brought to light (this was sometime after his TV series "Gifted Hands", his peers began to whisper some doubt they had about him. He left his profession stating that he wanted to leave the top of his career, but there was a lot of doubt about him, given he was letting his personal beliefs (he is a Seventh Day Adventist) and what he actually knew from science.
So what to do when you have an amazing surgeon who spits in the eye of everything he has been taught?
Well, perhaps you should let him perform surgery on you...but never, ever, let him wash your car, take out the trash . . . or make your sandwiches!
I was wondering who was going to bring up Carson.
Carson has world-class credentials as a surgeon and that will cause people to overlook his YEC nonsense. I would choose someone other than Carson unless it was a situation that only he or a very few surgeons have been able to pull off. Under those conditions I would probably do my best to suppress my concerns and trust that he will pull if off. Special case, special conditions.
But under normal conditions, where we do not have such extraordinary credentials, a surgeon who identifies as YEC is excluded. There are plenty of other surgeons in the world whose rationality would not be so suspect.
Carson is and always was his own largest advocate.
In fact, statistically, he was no better than anyone else, he simply took greater risks
with no better outcomes for his patients.
He really is a mechanic. Albeit, a highly skilled mechanic, but I don't know if he really understands the theories and the science concerning the human brain
One of the grossest things I ever saw in a movie was Hannibal Lector feeding the guy parts of his brain.
That was very gross. He's taking the bits from his brain, sauteing them, then feeding them to his victim.
Definitely the most messed up thing i've ever seen on TV or otherwise.
I learned the brain has no nerve endings...
That's right. That's why certain brain surgeries are done with the patient wide awake
There are rocks in your driveway older than that. Carson may be a great surgeon but the view from afar tells me he isn't very bright.
I most likely would not go to a doctor that came out and told me they believed the world was flat. For the most part I do not ask the beliefs of my doctors - the less I know the better. Being Wiccan I try to stay away from discussions in public about beliefs - might get me hung....
Living in the South I always see a children's Bible or something religious in the waiting rooms of most of my doctors (yes, I have a lot of doctors), so I know what the prevailing atmosphere is. BUT...I get quality care and I don't get bullshit about prayers and shit. I don't know if any of my doctors are YEC or flat earthers. At this point, it doesn't make a difference because I get the care I need. However..if any of them approach me with a ridiculous idea I will be shopping for a new doctor
That is the way I feel. As long as their care is good and they don't preach shit at me (other than to quit smoking) I could give a red rat's ass what their beliefs are.
I promise to be fair in the moderation
not me. I'll carve up any rwnj that gets out of line here like a xmas turkey.
I expect you to if someone gets out of line. Trolling, taunting, and meta won't be tolerated. They should have read the "red box" rules. If they didn't...oh well
The best argument? The Earth is flat, all the other planets are round.
It's too stupid to make it up.
I know my podiatrist has some interesting views, but those are mostly cultural, (She is Indian, (dot, not feather)). She peeled off my toenail without pain in under 30 seconds and she has yet to be wrong with regards to my foot care.
Would I see a doctor if they thought the world was flat? Probably, but the second I thought they were not good at their job, I would be out the door, never to return.
Sounds like you realize that personal beliefs do not inhibit a person's ability to perform their job ably.
Depends on the belief system. Hers are mostly cultural. I like her, nice lady and obviously skilled.
Hey Doc...if the Earth is flat, why aren't my feet?
I will be away for a few days so I'm locking this seed