The Old Stories Are Best: Adam and Eve

  
Via:  Heartland American  •  one month ago  •  87 comments


The Old Stories Are Best: Adam and Eve
She blames the serpent, but she also projects onto it: The serpent is really responsible for the entire imperfection of creation, though God is the real target as He created the serpent too. How contemporary this all is! Because the most common objection to the existence of God is why or how God allows evil to exist.

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In my last article for The Epoch Times, “What’s Wrong With the World,” I  touched on the fact that there is what I called a “triumvirate of psychopathologies” that afflict us as human beings, and that these three psychological problems were evident from the very beginning.

Indeed, that is the joy of the earlier, older stories. While simple from a narrative point of view, at the same time they seem to contain more and greater explicatory power. The story of Adam and Eve is a perfect example of this.

Blame, Projection, Denial


First, let’s recall what the three major psychopathologies are. As human beings we tend to, first,  blame  others, especially when we are at fault; second, project onto others our own fears, insecurities, and motives; and, third, deny reality, which is to say that we refuse to accept how things are even when the evidence is staring us in the face.

This last problem—denial—is arguably the worst tendency of all. No matter what the evidence, some people insist on not accepting it because they are wedded to their own pet theory. For example, Sir Fred Hoyle, a most eminent British scientist of the 20th century, refused to accept the evidence for the Big Bang Theory—that the universe had a beginning—till his dying day in 2001. Part of this rejection was entirely theological: He considered the theory to be pseudoscience because, as he  said  in a BBC interview, “It is deep within the psyche of most scientists to believe in the first page of Genesis.”

Madness, in a sense, is the refusal to accept reality as it is and to impose on it the unreal structures that we desire or that we prefer.

The Very First Question


But how, then, does the story of Adam and Eve reflect these three pathologies? Consider the story in Genesis chapter 3. In the first verse we find the serpent being introduced, which is described as “more crafty than any beast of the field,” and it speaks.

Two things to note at this point: First, if the serpent is “speaking,” then, as I see it, we are clearly not dealing with a literal snake but something or someone more potent and intelligent, of which the serpent forms some sort of representation so that we can understand. In other words, we are in the realm of poetry whereby truths are being expressed which are difficult to express otherwise.

10_15_Adam-and-Eve-with-apple-and-serpen
“Adam and Eve With Apple and Serpent” by Marcantonio Raimondi, after Albrecht Dürer. The Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Public Domain)

Second, we note that after the previous two chapters and their total of 56 verses, we come to an interrogative sentence posed by the serpent. It is, in fact, the first question that the Bible poses, which is, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

We notice the craftiness of the serpent immediately, although Eve apparently doesn’t, for God did not say “you shall not eat from any tree,” but rather that from “any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat.” In other words, the ban was only for one specific tree. The serpent, thus, exaggerates the prohibition to make it seem worse than it is.

We can infer that this form of marketing—via exaggeration—initiated the first doubt in Eve’s mind, the first doubt in a human mind. She thinks: What had God said, in fact? Swiftly, she has a more serious doubt, not exactly of what God had said, but whether God’s words were true. Would they die? Believing the serpent, she thinks: No! And underlying this question lay an even profounder question: Was the creation “good,” as God claimed in chapter 1?

The serpent invited Eve to doubt the goodness of creation, of the world, and of our very selves. Are we good?

Leaving Goodness Behind


And the answer is, of course, that we are not good, for Adam and Eve chose evil as we do now. Metaphorically and perhaps literally too, they ate evil (symbolized by the fruit) and in doing so began to see things differently. Rather like a drug entering the body, the poison’s first symptoms might be mild, but eventually reality acquires a hallucinatory quality that can no longer be controlled.

The psychopathologies come rushing in. First, Adam denies his guilt. Asked the direct question by God, “Have you eaten…,” he equivocates. He cannot be guilty because he blames Eve and holds her responsible for his actions. See how the words “I ate” come right at the end of his sentence: “The woman Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate,” as if he is distancing himself from them so that they are as far away from him along the sentence structure as they can be.

So denial and blame form a double whammy! Eve, suddenly finding herself entirely responsible for the mistake, immediately shifts into similar gear. Her sentence is less convoluted, but it’s blame first: “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Both, then, individually and collectively, claim that they are not responsible for their actions, and blame another. Surely, too, this is not wholly unfamiliar to us. Are we exculpated from our crimes because we were deceived by someone when we committed them? Certainly, in courts this excuse is frequently used. However, here blaming doesn’t work—and denial is futile.

What can Adam deny? His (and Eve’s) attempt to clothe—to cover—himself is tangible, visible evidence of his guilt.

Life Is Bad


On top of these denials and blames, intriguingly, they project their guilt. Adam, incredibly if we think about it, projects his guilt onto God Himself! “The woman Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me ….” In other words, Your actions caused this mess. If You hadn’t given me Eve, then I would not have eaten: My guilt is Your guilt; if I have done wrong, it is because You have done wrong.

Or, another possibility is that contrary to what God said, life is bad. In this brilliant psychological and spiritual moment of utter intensity, the created turns on the Creator and imputes to Him his own faults and wrongdoing.

10_15_Rebuke-of-Adam-and-Eve-1200x1612.j
“The Rebuke of Adam and Eve,”1740, by Charles Joseph Natoire. The Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Public Domain)

Eve goes the other way. Rather than projecting onto God, she imputes the guilt and wrongdoing onto the serpent which deceived her. Keep in mind, of course, that God created the serpent, so there is an indirect imputation of blame on God too!

Eve makes it sound very straightforward, but if we go back to the text, we find something quite different from a simple misdirection. First, she  listens  to the serpent, then she  sees  that the tree is “good for food” and also a “delight to the eyes,” and that the tree itself was “desirable to make one wise.” There is a complete sensuous (and later writers, for example Milton in “Paradise Lost,” also add sensual) feast going on here: She hears, she sees, she experiences gustatory and hunger pangs.

There is nothing, of course, wrong in itself with sensuous experience, for the world is beautiful, but what Eve is subtly doing—following perhaps the craft of the serpent—is piling on reasons why she could not help but eat the fruit. In other words, the very beauty of the world (which God created) seduced her into error. She fell in love with what God had created rather than with the Creator Himself, and so broke faith.

And perhaps above all the sensuous reasons, she gets at last to the cognitive one: wishing to possess wisdom—a vaulting ambition to be as God or like God. This blasphemous desire conceals yet another critique of the Creator, for it implies a defect in creation, as if she and Adam were not already wise.

She blames the serpent, but she also projects onto it: The serpent is really responsible for the entire imperfection of creation, though God is the real target as He created the serpent too.

How contemporary this all is! Because the most common objection to the existence of God is why or how God allows evil to exist.

However, if we take the Christian interpretation of these passages, God—remarkably and perhaps with compassion—seems to accept partially both projections. In the case of Eve’s assertions, we learn from God’s curse that the serpent is doomed, for it will be wounded in the head, which is fatal; whereas the serpent will only wound Adam’s seed in the heel, which is not fatal, and which is seen as a prophecy of the wounding of Christ on the cross.

In the case of Adam’s projection, God becomes the Man who ultimately receives the final punishment for the transgression. It is as if God atones for only creating a “good” cosmos rather than a perfect one (a perfect one could not fall into error)—which St. Augustine referred to as the fortunate fall (felix culpa) whereby mankind obtains a greater good than could be obtained merely by remaining good.

The Consequences of Blame, Projection, and Denial


Be that as it may, we have at the point of the Fall two good human beings, a man and a woman, who now endemically suffer from blaming, projecting, and denying. And if the consequences of this are bad when facing God, they are scarcely less awful when confronting each other.

To see the full force of this observation, consider the situation a few years later: “Where is Abel your brother?” And Cain’s reply? Denial. “I do not know.” The bloody history of the world begins.

Check yourself: How often do you find yourself blaming others for your problems and difficulties? How often do you find yourself projecting onto others—neighborhoods, races, gender, age, and so on—issues that really have their root in you?

And finally, are you in denial? What facts won’t you accept, will deny to your dying day? These things on a personal, local, national, and international level are what drive evil today. The fault is in us, and until we can accept this and take responsibility, the situations we find ourselves in are beyond repair and can only worsen. Adam and Eve have a lot to tell us.


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Heartland American
1  seeder  Heartland American    one month ago

On top of these denials and blames, intriguingly, they project their guilt. Adam, incredibly if we think about it, projects his guilt onto God Himself! “The woman Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me ….” In other words, Your actions caused this mess. If You hadn’t given me Eve, then I would not have eaten: My guilt is Your guilt; if I have done wrong, it is because You have done wrong.

Or, another possibility is that contrary to what God said, life is bad. In this brilliant psychological and spiritual moment of utter intensity, the created turns on the Creator and imputes to Him his own faults and wrongdoing.

10_15_Rebuke-of-Adam-and-Eve-1200x1612.j “The Rebuke of Adam and Eve,”1740, by Charles Joseph Natoire. The Metropolitan Museum of Art. (Public Domain)

Eve goes the other way. Rather than projecting onto God, she imputes the guilt and wrongdoing onto the serpent which deceived her. Keep in mind, of course, that God created the serpent, so there is an indirect imputation of blame on God too!

Eve makes it sound very straightforward, but if we go back to the text, we find something quite different from a simple misdirection. First, she  listens  to the serpent, then she  sees  that the tree is “good for food” and also a “delight to the eyes,” and that the tree itself was “desirable to make one wise.” There is a complete sensuous (and later writers, for example Milton in “Paradise Lost,” also add sensual) feast going on here: She hears, she sees, she experiences gustatory and hunger pangs.

There is nothing, of course, wrong in itself with sensuous experience, for the world is beautiful, but what Eve is subtly doing—following perhaps the craft of the serpent—is piling on reasons why she could not help but eat the fruit. In other words, the very beauty of the world (which God created) seduced her into error. She fell in love with what God had created rather than with the Creator Himself, and so broke faith.

And perhaps above all the sensuous reasons, she gets at last to the cognitive one: wishing to possess wisdom—a vaulting ambition to be as God or like God. This blasphemous desire conceals yet another critique of the Creator, for it implies a defect in creation, as if she and Adam were not already wise.

She blames the serpent, but she also projects onto it: The serpent is really responsible for the entire imperfection of creation, though God is the real target as He created the serpent too.

How contemporary this all is! Because the most common objection to the existence of God is why or how God allows evil to exist.

However, if we take the Christian interpretation of these passages, God—remarkably and perhaps with compassion—seems to accept partially both projections. In the case of Eve’s assertions, we learn from God’s curse that the serpent is doomed, for it will be wounded in the head, which is fatal; whereas the serpent will only wound Adam’s seed in the heel, which is not fatal, and which is seen as a prophecy of the wounding of Christ on the cross.

In the case of Adam’s projection, God becomes the Man who ultimately receives the final punishment for the transgression. It is as if God atones for only creating a “good” cosmos rather than a perfect one (a perfect one could not fall into error)—which St. Augustine referred to as the fortunate fall (felix culpa) whereby mankind obtains a greater good than could be obtained merely by remaining good.

The Consequences of Blame, Projection, and Denial

Be that as it may, we have at the point of the Fall two good human beings, a man and a woman, who now endemically suffer from blaming, projecting, and denying. And if the consequences of this are bad when facing God, they are scarcely less awful when confronting each other.

To see the full force of this observation, consider the situation a few years later: “Where is Abel your brother?” And Cain’s reply? Denial. “I do not know.” The bloody history of the world begins.

Check yourself: How often do you find yourself blaming others for your problems and difficulties? How often do you find yourself projecting onto others—neighborhoods, races, gender, age, and so on—issues that really have their root in you?   https://thenewstalkers.com/vic-eldred/group_discuss/7124/the-old-stories-are-best-adam-and-eve

 
 
 
devangelical
1.1  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1    one month ago

I wonder if adam watched cain start his family? bwah ha ha, xtian values

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.1    one month ago

Do you wonder that about all Christian fathers and their sons starting their families?  

 
 
 
devangelical
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1.1.1    one month ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
Greg Jones
1.1.3  Greg Jones  replied to  Heartland American @1.1.1    one month ago

Who did Cain and Able marry?

Did they have sisters?  That would have been incest.

Why would God create Adam and Eve in the first place, knowing they would soon "sin"?

The creation myth makes no sense when you look at the scientific evidence with your own eyes.

 
 
 
pat wilson
1.1.4  pat wilson  replied to  devangelical @1.1    one month ago

He wasn't Abel.

 
 
 
devangelical
1.1.5  devangelical  replied to  pat wilson @1.1.4    one month ago

the first love triangle that ended up with a murder

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.1.6  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1.3    one month ago

The human stock was much stronger after creation than it is now several thousand years of sin later.  There was indeed a time when God, knowing of its emerging danger to human societies and emerging dangers to human health did indeed forbid it at some point some generations after the world wide flood.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.1.7  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Greg Jones @1.1.3    one month ago

I could use science to defend both creation and the flood.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.1.8  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @1.1.5    one month ago

Wrong.  They both already had families at the time.  Cain killed Abel over theology.  Abel did what God asked of him while Cain tried to create his own worship system with his works being the center of it and killed Abel in a fit of envy and rage when God accepted Abel’s sacrifice and not his own.  Everything about our human nature has flowed out of the two stories retold in the seeded article. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
1.1.9  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @1.1.6    one month ago
The human stock was much stronger after creation than it is now several thousand years of sin later.  There was indeed a time when God, knowing of its emerging danger to human societies and emerging dangers to human health did indeed forbid it at some point some generations after the world wide flood.  

That's nice. Prove it!

I could use science to defend both creation and the flood.  

Go ahead! This should be good. Let's see this so called "science." I'll bet the farm your "science" comes from religious sites or religiously biased sources.  You do know what constitutes actual scientific evidence, don't you? Here's a hint: it's not empty claims, scripture, or belief.

 
 
 
Krishna
1.1.10  Krishna  replied to  devangelical @1.1    one month ago
I wonder if adam watched cain start his family? bwah ha ha, xtian values

Q: What did Adam and Eve do when God made them leave the garden of Eden?

A: Thery raised Cain!

 
 
 
devangelical
1.1.11  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @1.1.8    one month ago
They both already had families at the time

where did they meet their wives?

 
 
 
Krishna
1.1.12  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @1.1.6    one month ago
The human stock was much stronger after creation than it is now several thousand years of sin later.

Link?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
1.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  Heartland American @1    4 weeks ago

Good article. Human nature hasn't changed much, has it?  

And all this time I blamed Eve!  Lol!  For all my liberal friends - that was a joke!

 
 
 
Heartland American
1.2.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2    4 weeks ago

I’m glad that you liked the article. I thought it was well written. 

 
 
 
lady in black
2  lady in black    one month ago

They are just stories nothing more...and once again not all believe in your God or any God.

 
 
 
devangelical
2.1  devangelical  replied to  lady in black @2    one month ago

YEC logic = 1500 years of family fuck-fests despite all scientific evidence to the contrary

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.1.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  devangelical @2.1    one month ago

Thanks for proving the point the seeded article is making. 

 
 
 
devangelical
2.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Heartland American @2.1.1    one month ago

[Removed]

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  lady in black @2    one month ago

The day will come when literally all will do so, but for most it will be too late.  

 
 
 
JBB
2.2.1  JBB  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    one month ago

Nutters have been saying that for 2,000 years.

Usually along with demands for all our money...

 
 
 
devangelical
2.2.2  devangelical  replied to  JBB @2.2.1    one month ago

... 3-4 times per service...

 
 
 
Freefaller
2.2.3  Freefaller  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    one month ago
The day will come when literally all will do so

No it won't, you are once again simply projecting your delusions on others 

 
 
 
devangelical
2.2.4  devangelical  replied to  Freefaller @2.2.3    one month ago

the religious business model...

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.5  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Freefaller @2.2.3    one month ago

Nope, just stating my opinion based on what I have researched.  

 
 
 
lady in black
2.2.6  lady in black  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    one month ago

Don't hold your breath waiting

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.7  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  lady in black @2.2.6    one month ago

It may well not happen in this lifetime but happen it will.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.8  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.2    one month ago
The day will come when literally all will do so, but for most it will be too late.  

Another empty claim with no basis in reality, science, or logic.

Nope, just stating my opinion based on what I have researched. 

Opinion? I thought you had science? Opinions are meaningless, especially when declaring them as fact without evidence.

It may well not happen in this lifetime but happen it will.  

More opinion?

 
 
 
Freefaller
2.2.9  Freefaller  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.5    one month ago
Nope, just stating my opinion based on what I have researched.

LMAO that's just another way of stating projecting your delusions on others.  Thank the gods we finally agree on this.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.10  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Freefaller @2.2.9    one month ago

The secular minority can mock the values and beliefs of faithful believers all they want. They will cease their laughter at the sights and sounds of the second coming.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.11  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.8    one month ago

We believe and are saved by faith.  We don’t require signs and wonders in order to believe.  

 
 
 
lady in black
2.2.12  lady in black  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.7    one month ago

Nope...not every person living in America is going to follow your religion...get over it

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.13  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.11    one month ago

You said you had science! Wheres the science? The evidence? Belief isn't science.  Neither does belief equal fact. So belief is essentially meaningless in the establishment of actual facts.

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.14  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.10    one month ago

Emotional based platitudes and baseless claims are neither convincing or persuasive. And you complain about being mocked. Well, you earn every bit of mocking you get with your nonsense!

 
 
 
Krishna
2.2.15  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.7    one month ago
It may well not happen in this lifetime but happen it will.

Link?

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.16  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.14    one month ago

Your mocking is meaningless to me.  Other than being a badge of honor for standing up for my beliefs.  You are already lost to us based on all you said and no one who is a believer is really trying to persuade you.  Your messages here are nothing more than white noise we have to overcome to reach out to others who haven’t heard our message or are still undecided.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
2.2.17  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.16    one month ago

Declaring people to be eternally damned is one of the reasons why your baseless claims are challenged.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.18  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Krishna @2.2.15    one month ago

Only the father knows the day and the hour of the second coming and it will only be after the judgement that what I mentioned will happen.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.19  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.16    one month ago
Your mocking is meaningless to me.

 Asking you questions and challenging your claims is not mocking. I'm calling you out on your BS, which you have yet to provide any scientific evidence or support for, AS YOU CLAIMED you could. All I said is you have earned all the mocking you get all on your own, as you continuously make baseless claims and platitudes while failing to back any of it up.

 Other than being a badge of honor for standing up for my beliefs.

Believe whatever you like. But as I also said, belief does not equal fact. That's something that seems lost on you.

 You are already lost to us based on all you said and no one who is a believer is really trying to persuade you.  

You said you could use science to prove religious claims. Since you have failed to do so, it is clear you lost.

You are nothing more than white noise we have to overcome to reach out to others who haven’t heard our message or are still undecided.  

Your ad hom attack aside, your disingenuous BS will be called out and challenged as it should be by anyone intellectually honest and logical enough to see it for the empty and/or absurd claims they are! It's religious delusions and willful ignorance that needs to be overcome!

Only the father knows the day and the hour of the second coming and it will only be after the judgement that what I mentioned will happen.  

Oh, how convenient an excuse. Not to mention another baseless claim based on a presumed knowledge that you cannot possibly know. Especially without any empirical evidence to back any of it up. And you wonder why you get "mocked." It's claims like that which earn you mocking. And deservedly so!

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.20  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @2.2.17    one month ago

I have no authority to declare that of any particular person.  I haven’t done so.  The fact is that much of humanity will be just that. It’s sad and it’s not God’s will that it will turn out that way.  People sadly will use their free will to reject salvation as is their right to do.  We can’t sit in judgement because we only see outward appearances and occasional dealings while God looks at a persons heart.  Many people will get to Heaven and find people there that they thought had no chance and will find missing people they were sure would be there. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.21  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @2.2.17    one month ago
Declaring people to be eternally damned is one of the reasons

Not to mention being quite sanctimoniously arrogant, as it infers one knows precisely what god is thinking or will do. It's like they presume to speak for god. 

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.22  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.20    one month ago
I have no authority to declare that of any particular person.

if not, then you only imply that's exactly what will happen.

It’s sad and it’s not God’s will that it will turn out that way.

Your god knows how things will turn out. So clearly, he either willed or allowed it to happen.

 People sadly will use their free will to reject salvation as is their right to do.

There's no such thing as free will if there's an omnipotent, omniscient god.

We can’t sit in judgement because we only see outward appearances and occasional dealings while God looks at a persons heart. 

Funny how so many religious individuals are exactly that: judgmental!

 Many people will get to Heaven and find people there that they thought had no chance and will find missing people they were sure would be there. 

Doesn't sound much like a Heaven to me.

 
 
 
TᵢG
2.2.23  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.20    one month ago
I have no authority to declare that of any particular person.  I haven’t done so.

Sure you have; you have done so many times.   You just use different words.   Did you forget this?:

HA @2.2 - The day will come when literally all will do so, but for most it will be too late.
 
 
 
TᵢG
2.2.24  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @2.2.21    one month ago

I agree Gordy.   There might indeed be a sentient creator.   If so, this is an entity of unimaginable qualities.   For human beings to presume to know and speak for such an entity is a staggering act of arrogance.

 
 
 
Gordy327
2.2.25  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @2.2.24    one month ago
If so, this is an entity of unimaginable qualities. 

Based on how some people describe or presume to know this entity, it seems it shares similar qualities as humans. That's rather telling in itself, especially how such an entity would have the same flaws in qualities or traits as humans.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.26  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  lady in black @2.2.12    one month ago

I never said they would.  Our goal is for everyone to hear the message we have to share and let them all make up their own mind once they have heard it. Clearly not all will choose to follow.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.27  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @2.2.23    one month ago

Really?  Who specifically did I say that they were personally going to burn in Hell?  Jesus said wide is the road to destruction and narrow is the path to salvation and eternal life.  

 
 
 
Raven Wing
2.2.28  Raven Wing  replied to  TᵢG @2.2.24    one month ago
For human beings to presume to know and speak for such an entity is a staggering act of arrogance.

Exactly. IF they really know the deity as well as they think they do, they would not be so arrogant to think they have the right to speak for it. 

Their actions prove just how little they know and are too stupid to realize it.

 
 
 
Heartland American
2.2.29  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Raven Wing @2.2.28    one month ago

No one is speaking for God here.  Simply quoting or paraphrasing from His word /love letter to mankind that we call The Holy Bible.  The use of His words to us is not us speaking for him

 
 
 
TᵢG
2.2.30  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.27    4 weeks ago

Are atheists going to burn in Hell?

 
 
 
Freefaller
2.2.31  Freefaller  replied to  Heartland American @2.2.10    4 weeks ago
The secular minority can mock the values and beliefs of faithful believers all they want.

You mean in the same way that you judge others that don't in this nonsensical YEC silliness

They will cease their laughter at the sights and sounds of the second coming.  

No they won't because once again you are projecting you're own delusions.  I'd like to say to say you'll see when you die, but you won't as just like every other human going back hundreds of thousands of year you're body and mind are going to cease functioning and that's it, nothing else.

 
 
 
Krishna
2.3  Krishna  replied to  lady in black @2    one month ago
They are just stories nothing more...and once again not all believe in your God or any God.

But every word in the Bible is the literal word of God!

(Ditto The Holy Koran and all the other Holy Books).

 
 
 
Krishna
2.3.1  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @2.3    one month ago
They are just stories nothing more...and once again not all believe in your God or any God.
But every word in the Bible is the literal word of God! (Ditto The Holy Koran and all the other Holy Books).

And if you don't follow God's commandments exactly-- she will damn you to eternal Hellfire!

 
 
 
JBB
3  JBB    one month ago

Surely stone Age myths are amusing insights into the ancient's imaginations butt by the time stories of Adam and Eve came along in Canaanite lore Isis and Osiris already had some ancient temples that had already crumbled unto the dust of time in predynastic Egypt. Theirs too was a legend of the first man and the first woman who interestingly enough had two sons, Seth and Horus. As far as tales of holy resurrected zombies go though, Osiris predates Jesus by thousands and thousands of years...

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  JBB @3    one month ago

It was all foretold in Eden after the fall to sin and evil.  There have been many frauds and counterfeits of the real thing through out human history since the fall of mankind.  Satan knows how it’s all going to turn out for him and all who follow after those counterfeits.  He has created them all in an effort to deceive.  Sadly for the majority of humanity through out time and history to the present he will prevail regarding them.  

 
 
 
Krishna
3.1.1  Krishna  replied to  Heartland American @3.1    one month ago
Satan knows how it’s all going to turn out for him and all who follow after those counterfeits.

Yes but eventually he'll be impeached..and then Pence will be president!

320

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.2  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Krishna @3.1.1    one month ago

Satans rule over this earth is temporary and he will be impeached by God who will end the battle between good and evil as the victor.  

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.3  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.2    one month ago
Satans rule over this earth is temporary and he will be impeached by God who will end the battle between good and evil as the victor.  

jrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gif

When you prove there's a god/satan, then that statement might have merit. Also funny how your god allowed Satan to exist and/or "rule" over us. And yet god gets pissed at us if we "stray from his path?" Your god only has himself to blame! 

And what has Satan ever done that's so bad? Especially compared to all the atrocities that god has committed? Which one of them is really "evil?"

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.4  TᵢG  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.3    4 weeks ago
Also funny how your god allowed Satan to exist and/or "rule" over us.

Indeed.  God can (by definition of God) take Satan out whenever He wishes.   Clearly Satan exists because God allows him to exist.   Satan is thus part of God's plan.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.5  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.4    4 weeks ago

Ever wonder if Gods' plans every went awry...

not like broken bred all seedy, just like he misplaced his notes that were sandwhiched in between meatings,

as God, was so busy, getting call waiting

he created a mistake sandwich so fine, he had it as the main coarse rubbing his belly raw

fishing for men after he took the poll that stated feed me something that i can't buy...

.

Like Stake and Lobster  Bisque etched in stone 

cause God,      God is always stuck eating A Loan he needs not pay back due to lack of interest 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.6  TᵢG  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1.5    4 weeks ago

Given God is defined as perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, etc. it is not possible for God's plans to go awry.    That definition of God is the root cause for most profound contradictions in religions.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.7  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.6    4 weeks ago
it is not possible for God's plans to go awry. 

God Planned them to go Awry

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.8  TᵢG  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1.7    4 weeks ago

jrSmiley_79_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.9  sandy-2021492  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.3    4 weeks ago
And what has Satan ever done that's so bad?

Well, he was a bit of an ass to Job.  With God's encouragement.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.10  igknorantzrulz  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.9    4 weeks ago

Well, he was a bit of an ass to Job.  With God's encouragement.

I like Job's papers, 1.5 of the time

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.11  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.4    4 weeks ago

Satans free will choice to rebel against God and try to rival Him is not and was not Gods plan though God did have plan to deal with it and bring it to an end.  God had to let the rest of the universe see the results of sin and not following his His perfect and just law.  There would be no free will if we couldn’t disobey God and people and other creation would fear God if he simply destroyed Satan and his angel followers on the spot.  This earth, Gods creation in his own image is the only place satans temptation worked and Adam surrendered the dominion over the earth that God gave him to Satan.  The rest of the universe was satisfied by the Cross as they witnessed Satan using men to try to kill God the son.  As to mankind here, the time of the world as we know it is coming to a close.  All humanity will have heard and made a decision one way or the other before the final tribulation and then the end will come.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.12  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.11    4 weeks ago

God would have to be the one to give Satan the free will to disobey.   Further, God is omniscient thus He knew (by definition) that giving Satan free will would lead to Satan's behavior.   God chose to give Satan free will anyway.   Ergo, Satan and all of his actions, are a result of God knowingly allowing this to happen.

Unless, of course, God is not omniscient or is not omnipotent (or is imperfect).    

This is not difficult to comprehend, but one must be willing to actually think (objectively use one's mind) and not immediately ignore the absolutely blatant contradiction for fear of committing heresy.

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.13  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  sandy-2021492 @3.1.9    4 weeks ago

There was no encouragement.  Satan did what he did because he wanted to break Jobs faith in God. Satan accused God of buying Jobs love with blessings and material possessions and great health.  Satan was so desperate to break Jobs faith and Gods claim to any allegiance of any man that He did all that he did to Job, short of killing him which God would not permit. Job was wise enough to recognize what was going on and refused his friends and wife’s rebuke and advice to curse God and die.  

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.14  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.12    4 weeks ago

All of God’s intelligent creation has free will.  Not just Satan, Angels, and mankind.  God has always existed and always was adding to creations through out the universe right up to the final creation, Earth and mankind in His image.  God always had a plan to deal with sin and rebellion and we are living in it.  All will ultimately choose between God and Satan and there is no neutral ground.  All who refuse to accept God to their dying breath or at the time of the final decision at the end chose the other by default. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
3.1.15  sandy-2021492  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.13    4 weeks ago

"Go ahead, kill his kids, take away his material possessions, cause him terrible pain.  Just don't kill him."  Yup, God was a real prince.

I guess since he gave Job more kids (I mean, they're interchangeable, right?) God was pretty cool.

God is the terrible mother who lets her boyfriend abuse her kids in this scenario.  And somehow, that mother is praiseworthy, and not culpable at all, and her kids should love her for it.

Sick and twisted.

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.16  Gordy327  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.6    4 weeks ago

But somehow, God can't do anything about Satan and even gets upset at us for something Satan supposedly does. God blames us for his screwups, or gets a free pass because God is "perfect." This is religious "logic," and I use the term very loosely here. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.17  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.14    4 weeks ago
All of God’s intelligent creation has free will.  Not just Satan, Angels, and mankind.

Thus you agree that God gave Satan free will.   

God has always existed and always was adding to creations through out the universe right up to the final creation, Earth and mankind in His image.  

Not relevant to what we are discussing.

God always had a plan to deal with sin and rebellion and we are living in it.  

You have no way of knowing this.   But, regardless, this does not change the fact (by definition of God) that sin exists because God allows it to exist.   

All will ultimately choose between God and Satan and there is no neutral ground.  All who refuse to accept God to their dying breath or at the time of the final decision at the end chose the other by default. 

Here you go again claiming that those who refuse to accept God (by your definition of God) will burn in Hell.     And, again, how can you possibly know this?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.18  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.16    4 weeks ago

But somehow, God can't do anything about Satan and even gets upset at us for something Satan supposedly does. God blames us for his screwups, or gets a free pass because God is "perfect." This is religious "logic," and I use the term very loosely here. 

 

Most Perfect omniscient beings need a scapegoat to landscape their shortcomings that they never need to tall tale anyone about as he  or would should i say he/she/it/they whatever 

could just create, say like an illegal immigrant that looked slightly different and could make one feel superior about being Great, as Lakes and Oceans, butter cream iced potions , and for the Hell of it, if God got the notions , he could, for all to enjoy when feeling a tad inferior, create itself an illegal alien landscaper stereotype A personality go getter of immorality as the determiner of immortality,

is just killing me and, De Jesus Christ oh Mighty, and not stated in Spite E,

i have to bail out my row boat i planted in the woods and not in a row of homes, as it was on sale, that pushed and promoted the windswept propulsion device left to my own against my God given to Will  all of my possessions to Grace  and  Right to die   my hair blonde cause i was sick of being a Brunette that couldn't speak

of the electrical storm that struck out against Noah, causing an Arc Angel to be welded to all of man kind or not, benevolence benign the eightball in September the 6th while 5 unwise men set forth, on a 3 legged journey to returny all species of creatures in one Ark an sawed in half, were those bored to tears for 40 nights and a daze foregoing beers

for all that Witch brew    in an illogical stew that should cauldron for some explanation by something that sold us a bill of goods and evil over due to the fact that he wished to create, in his him the her she transgendered Johnny's image

of an imperfect being        that i'm  perfectly  fine with being

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.19  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.17    4 weeks ago
Thus you agree that God gave Satan free will.   

You would of figured he would have charged him for something so valuable...

 
 
 
Gordy327
3.1.20  Gordy327  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.1.18    4 weeks ago

Perhaps god needs a scapegoat because he doesn't want his creations to realize how imperfect he really is. Of course, anyone with a modicum of logic, rationality, and critical thinking skills can see that. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
3.1.21  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Gordy327 @3.1.20    4 weeks ago

I've notice many

are critical

of my thinking skills, thus Y

i skillfully need not ever think and worry about what their thinking concludes, as their thought process eludes, the process of foods,

unless

they have a food forethought processor, 

but processed foods, and thoughts, have been known to cause cancer in  cancer cells

where cells sales have hit the roof and big pHarma reaps the profits, but Good God, in his all encompassing and knowing plans, obviously had a Health plan for that,

but the Republicans spell out that the  G O D is actually spelled GOP nightly

 
 
 
Heartland American
3.1.22  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  TᵢG @3.1.17    4 weeks ago

You have something relevant to discuss?  

 
 
 
TᵢG
3.1.23  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @3.1.22    4 weeks ago

I am responding to the content of your posts.   If your posts are relevant then my responses are as well.

 
 
 
Krishna
3.2  Krishna  replied to  JBB @3    one month ago

butt by the time stories of Adam and Eve came along in Canaanite lore Isis and Osiris already had some ancient temples that had already crumbled unto the dust of time in predynastic Egypt

ISIS is by no means defeated--they may have lost their Caliphate but now that the Turks have bombed the Kurds' prison camps in Northern Syria they have escaped and are regrouping...soon they will kill us all!

 
 
 
Gordy327
4  Gordy327    one month ago
The Old Stories Are Best: Adam and Eve

And a story is all it is and nothing more. It's just one of many such "creation" stories. 

 
 
 
Heartland American
4.1  seeder  Heartland American  replied to  Gordy327 @4    one month ago

All the rest are fraudulent counterfeits of this the real one as told by God to Moses,  created one by one by the great deceiver, Satan.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
4.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  Heartland American @4.1    4 weeks ago

How do you know the stories in the Bible are not variants of earlier stories?   (For example, ever hear of the Epic of Gilgamesh ?).

 
 
 
Gordy327
4.1.2  Gordy327  replied to  Heartland American @4.1    4 weeks ago

How do you know that? Where's your proof? What makes your story any more real or true over other stories? Ever consider that your story is the false one?

 
 
 
Gordy327
5  Gordy327    4 weeks ago

I see there's still no proof for religious claims or assertions made. Neither is there any rational rebuttal to the logical points made against said claims. Just evasion and/or ignoring. Somehow, I'm not surprised. 

 
 
 
Freefaller
5.1  Freefaller  replied to  Gordy327 @5    4 weeks ago

You expected anything else?

 
 
 
Gordy327
5.1.1  Gordy327  replied to  Freefaller @5.1    4 weeks ago

Nope. The only thing I expected was the usual intellectual cowardice and dishonesty. On that, my expectations were well met.

 
 
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