BUMP STOCKS.....Your thoughts ?
In my opinion, I just can't see a NEED for Bump Stocks. Fantastic idea by someone, but just can't see the NEED !
Now, after saying that, Someone took time and probably massive amounts of money to come up with that idea. Money was spent on experimentation and manufacturing the original idea. Money was spent getting a patent on the product (Not sure if it is patented), and money was spent sending the idea and the product to the ATF (Government) for approval. After ALL that expense, the ATF (Government), approved the product in 2010.
http://www.slidefire.com/downloads/BATFE.pdf
So, since finding out that fact, that Government Approved this Bump Stock Device, here are my thoughts.
Anyone and everyone involved in design, experimenting, manufacturing and getting this device to Government for approval, any one and everyone that purchased this device for re-sale, and anyone and everyone that purchased this GOVERNMENT APPROVED device....should be monetarily reimbursed by the Government, if they deem this new device illegal now.
It's ONLY FAIR.
Most Probably won't happen....the reimbursement thing.....BUT IT IS THE FAIR THING FOR THEM TO DO.
On a Ranting pissed off side note:
Funny how Politishits like Hillary come out and blame the NRA and Republicans for this nut job, alluding that they have blood on their hands, AGAIN ! They seem to conveniently forget the DATE (2010) this product was approved by Government . I didn't WANT to get political on this issue, but this Hillary women, and the other Liberal kneejerks , just makes it hard to avoid Politics.
So, After my little rant at the end, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS !
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Seems to me, if Government approves something, before they disapprove, they should reimburse EVERYONE involved in the original approval and sales process for an approved product, every dime they spent, with interest.
No need for it.
The fact is the world will never probably be free from weapons like this. Once they were developed and released there was no going back.
I see a change coming though !
Should everyone involved in the Bump Stock device, get reimbursed by Government, if they reverse themselves ?
no
Every enterprise is risky. There are no guarantees on decisions one makes in life.
And that's what we have laws for including bankruptcy laws.
The decision was a Government decision. Government shouldn't be held accountable for their Approvals of PRIVATE citizens inventions when they CHANGE their minds ?
NO
Never trust the government.
If you do.it's at your own risk.
The native Americans learned that the hard way long ago, I dont need to.
Government leaders change ... they change the government... never trust the government will not change.. It will.
At one time cigarette advertising in the media was legal-- I remember seeing cigarette ads such as this one on TV:
But then that was banned-- here's a bit of the history:
After World War II, cigarette companies advertised frequently on television programs. To combat this move by the cigarette companies, the Federal Communications Commission required television stations to air anti-smoking advertisements at no cost to the organizations providing such advertisements.
In 1970, Congress took their anti-smoking initiative one step further and passed the Public Health Cigarette Smoking Act , banning the advertising of cigarettes on television and radio starting on January 2, 1971.
The ban resulted in the loss of quite a bit of money for advertising agencies. Also a loss of significant revenue for TV stations. And probably for cigarette manufacturers as well.
Should the government (meaning, of course, taxpayer money) have been required to reimburse tghese organizations for lost revenues?
The product wasn't banned.
I don't think they even know who owns them. Just like most gun parts you don't need to pass a background test or even give your name to buy them. If they make them illegal then possession of the device would be illegal so only owners who are law abiding enough to return them will be effected and they aren't the ones we need to worry about.
There is little chance of making them illegal retroactively. Just like the "assault weapon's" ban didn't do anything for the ones already sold.
IMO, this device has little practical value. It's a gimmick. Sadly it works for large crowds. I can't see how it would be anything but lousy for accuracy. But in reality, auto fire is lousy for accuracy too.
If they become illegal and the present ones are grandfathered in then no compensation. If by some miracle, they mange to get a retroactive bill through and the courts uphold it, then yes they should compensate the owners fair value. They can't give permission and then say "Oops, nope, tough shit for you." without real compensation.
I agree on both counts !
Depends.
That's true if a law is passed outlawing the sale of bump stocks.
However a slightly different law could be passed-- one that outlaws not only the sale, but also the possession.
Then people will use trigger cranks.
That doesn't look very hard to build, you could even hook it up to a cordless drill.
building your own bump stock is easier.
I've never used one or seen one in person but it seems that allowing your rifle to bounce back and forth in the bump stock can't be good for accuracy. Not that full auto ever helps accuracy but letting you rifle rattle around in a bump stock just sounds terrible. I'd still like to try one though I'm sure they are fun.
I am sure they are but I still prefer to shot dime size 100 yd groups with my .243.
I feel that they will be included as an NFA weapon and have the same restrictions on them as machine guns.
The maker of the bump stock has already come out with a bump trigger group that basically does the same thing as the bump stock but inside the gun.
Those are hard to get past the courts to be retroactive. The owners of them now may not ever be able to sell them but will probably be able to keep them. The courts generally frown on punishing law abiding people retroactively.
I think this hand crank is cool but basic. If they added a trigger under it and a gear reduction and ratcheting mechanism that allowed five round (or less) bursts. A mechanism like that could be small, fairly accurate, and with the ratchet would allow you to fire one round for every 1/8" the trigger was pulled back to a maximum 5/8" or 5 round burst. What do you think ?
Except it won't work very well unless you regulate the speed the drill turns at. Auto loading Weapons have a cycle and cannot be sped up and a point where it stops auto feeding, anything with a trigger group has too many moving parts to cycle it that fast...
years ago I bought a trigger crank for my AR 15. Trying it out, bumped it before I was ready and it moved trigger and fired. Took it off, that thing was unsafe.
I am sure the LV shooter would agree with you.
I think what will be done is to designate them as a Class III NFA "Any Other Weapon". A grace period will be allowed to register the ones already in possession, after that, possession without proper registration will be subject to fines and penalties under the NFA.
I agree. That is the most likely action.
I see little use for them other than to burn a lot of ammo quickly.
Anyone with a drill press and aluminum strips can make one in a few hours for about $20 bucks.
I have read this morning that the NRA has made a statement supporting restrictions on bump stocks and slide fire stocks. Basically,they are supporting the position that this addition transforms the AR in a fully automatic weapon, and thus make the weapon subject to Title II restrictions.
This is really the only logical approach. An outright ban would be stupid when you consider that fully automatic weapons are legal with the proper hoop-jumping.
Question is:
Do you regulate the possession or regulate the combination of rifle + bump-stock.
Think of it like this:
You can buy a short barrel. You can buy all the necessary parts to build a short barrel rifle upper. As long as you don't have it on a functioning Lower, you are good. But the second you attach it to a lower, it becomes a Title II weapon. And if you don't have the proper tax stamp, it's a felony.
Thanks, Bruce. For the info!
I was going to use the example of a shotgun and a hack saw.......but yours is much more concise.
I have no problem regulating these things. To me they serve no purpose but to spray and pray. While i'm sure that can be fun, for me the potential negatives clearly outweigh the positives.
Even though modifications to full auto is already relatively easy to do for many weapons, that is still illegal as well. I've got no problem with that either.
Another easy target instead of trying to do something about the real problem.
Yeah, it is low-hanging fruit.
But then again it is nothing but a toy for those who are not trained in the use of their weapons. I can unload 20 rnds in mine in under 10 seconds, I'm sure you can also. So people trained in the proper use of the tool have no real need for it. Besides best practices doctrine is shot discipline, one round one target. Conserve ammo and practice. Situation requiring the ability to spray fire are few and far between.
My belief is that if this can start a dialogue that is desperately needed, then let it go....
It does transform a class two weapon into a class three. And no I'm a big believer in plain untrained common folk do not need access to machine guns.... Heavy regulation (NOT BANNING) is good sense.
I helped write FOPA, two things I disagree with it. The absolute ban of sales after 1987 and allowing the databases of gun owners to stand and be built further. But I was ignored by the powers that be.....
I think after the last CDC study, they did a great job of defining the problem with the current systems of guns in this nation, there is no evidentiary basis for defining the problem, and until we have one, there is not going to be any effective way to end this problem which does need to end.
The problem isn't the weapon or any of their components. Like you said, they are low hanging fruit. Whether obtained legally or illegal the gun is irrelevant and restricting or banning them won't do any good. The problem is the person handling the weapon. We have to come up with something better to combat the people problem.
EXACTLY!
100% agreement my friend...
No doubt of that. But this guy had no political views of any substance. No ties to any groups of any notoriety, didn't appear to be a racist or bigot or, "hater" in any way. By all accounts, he was just an average guy that liked to gamble. Yet he clearly premeditated this. Why? No one knows, no one is even speculating. So that leaves us with, "if we cannot identify who may slip a gear and mow down our fellow Americans, then we really DO have to deal with the method of how these people are killing us".
I promise you that there are roughly 22,000 people that are now completely against bump stocks...every single person at that concert. Also, most LEO's are opposed to them and as is often pointed out, most LEO's are conservatives that completely support the 2nd amendment.
That is where the problem lies. I find it hard to believe that he had that many weapons in the hotel room and at his home that it didn't throw up a red flag to somebody? Family, his girlfriend, people around him? I find it hard to believe that he lived like Ted Kaczynski. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the 2nd Amendment and ownership of weapons. I have a few shotguns and an AR 15 myself. But at some point, we have to step back and wonder how many weapons would be a sign that something is wrong.
Now this is all going with that he obtained all these weapons legally. The illegal side is a whole different set of problems that legislation can't fix.
I feel for those at the concert. I really do. Those "bump stocks" are a component of the weapon. On my AR 15 I have a "bump stock" that I purchased at a re-utilization sale on a military installation. It is the exact same one that is on the M4, M110 sniper and variations of the M16. It in no way allowed me to fire any faster than the original "bump stock". That is what the buffer spring is capable of changing. It just furthers my assertion that they don't know what they are talking about and making wild, uneducated guesses (again).
E.A Think " Collectors " so should they ALL be outlawed?
Now lets look at the Other side " Underground Collectors ", who would know who they are?
Lets Go a Step Further, some one intent to Killing and being Killed , how many states have " one LEO to attend domestics "? are Criminals aware of that, how many weapons in each LEO vehicle and on a LEO officer? so what have we got here?
So the Problems again is not the weapons NOR the Number of weapons but Humans and Intent!
No. But this is where it becomes a gray area. There is a big difference between a collector and some slug from the street with 40 - 50 weapons. Most collectors are known in their area by not only the people but law enforcement.
I think that is something that would have to be worked locally. I really didn't think of it from a LEO point of view like that. It does bring up some additional potential problems.
Yes.
E.A " Slug " a Multimillionaire, that could get well " Over 100% " and free " Bed and Breakfast " in cassinos, is that what he was?
He seemed to be a bit of a loner and pretty quiet guy. With current gun laws, there are no "red flags" for buying tons of guns, (33 in the last year)... Most rifles can actually be hidden pretty easily... Golf bag, large duffel bag, backpack, etc.. You would be surprised at what people will look at and still not see.
Maybe not legally but at some point somebody has to think "WTF is this guy doing?" Those are the red flags I'm referring to.
Rumors and fake news abound on social media about Paddock, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that LE, FBI, etc already know a lot of facts about him that they're not telling the media/public. They've been questioning the linchpins - Marilou Danley and Paddock's relatives - for days, and they don't want to scare them away by making them clam up.
" Red Flags "
Lets go over this again:
If the system has NO " Red Flags " how will anyone detect, the none existing ones?
And, since More likely then not only 2 or 3 weapons were used, what does the Number have to do with anything?
My husband, who is a good man, a loving father, and a wonderful husband, is also a gun owner, as am I. He has come home the past 3 days raving and ranting about how everyone is going out to buy this "bump" kit because they're afraid the kit will be banned. There is a segment of the population that will go out and buy one, just because they're afraid they'll be banned.
He says that no one really understands what they are or what they do. Not that I know squat, and I don't claim to know squat, but is it's entire purpose to empty a clip faster? Fire more bullets in less time? What does your average deer hunter need an automatic weapon for? Where am I missing the boat?
Personally, I think it is a conspiracy to sell more of them. Get everyone riled up that they will be banned and then they'll sell like hot cakes...
It's to protect themselves from the tyrannical gub'mint.
Oh. Thanks, dear Hal!
I think you know what a bump stock is, and does. Here is the problem. In the military, they have what is known as a "three round burst", you pull the trigger and it shoots three rounds with one pull of the trigger. There is a reason for this. Because after three rounds, no matter how strong you are, you are going to be so far off your target, you may as well be throwing rocks from the back of a horse. Recoil, over and over again in rapid succession moves the rifle so much, full auto is pointless. So why machine guns? Machine guns, (.60 cal and .50, etc.. ) are usually fired from a stable position, on the ground, mounted on a vehicle etc. so the recoil doesn't move you off of your target. People that fire full auto are doing what they call, "spray and pray"... Just put as much lead downrange as possible and "pray" you hit something. The LV shooter was doing exactly that..just putting as much lead as he could into a relatively small area hoping he would kill people, and he did, obviously.
.
My stance on bump stocks? If the US military doesn't need hand held full auto weapons, the general public doesn't need them either.
I was reading a comment from an obvious gun loving person and they were saying, "full auto is more fun!!!". Indeed, I wonder how much fun he would have claimed the LV shooter was having if that poster had been in the crowd?
I am all for the 2nd amendment, I am a gun owner many times over, but weapon mods and weapons themselves that can shoot 600 rounds a minute? Have no place in the public's hands. None.
I agree with you completely! Thanks!
Just curious... You used to post on NV a long time ago, didn't you?
Yes, I did. Same name, too! I left when the nations concept went into effect... And came here, to be with my dear friends! Welcome to NT, Mr. Frost!
Thanks! Yea, I remember a lot of people bailed out when the nations were started. I almost did as well. It really was the beginning of the end for "the vine". I was there since March of 2009, it had a good run, but it's gone now. Tried to go to an article I wrote many years ago and it wouldn't load it at all. Shame.
I will always be grateful to NV for the many friends I made, but I'm glad I'm here-- now, more than ever... I hated that groups other than those I was a member of, could take my articles and do with them what they would. That was it, for me... I worked hard on those articles! I didn't want a bunch of people trashing them!
E.A See 12.1.1 Eagle Averro
A buddy of mine made a machine gun out of a bb gun and an air compressor. Now THAT really WAS fun. Could write your name in plywood.
A few hand tools, some materials and a little bit of skill and knowledge and in three days you could own a very effective UZI style sub-machine gun.
E.A it is a LOT worse, with some new Cameras, some electronic knowledge, a car windscreen wiper, and one has a Fully self aiming Firing Snipers Long Range rifle, add that as many times as one wants, and what have we?