S E E D E D C O N T E N T
Daniel Dale
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https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/presidents-trump-unreality-show/
Yes, politicians spin, and dissemble, and shade the truth (as do most humans), but most are not boldly contradicting reality. Sometimes they are wrong, hopeful, and/or naive (“If you like the doctor you have, you can keep your doctor”), sometimes they mean it when they say it, only to have to take it back later (“Read me lips: no new taxes”), and sometimes they are self-serving in their accuracy while leaving out the broader truth (“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”).* And I do not want to re-litigate these quotes here, as that is not the point. I think Obama actually thought people could keep their doctors (or, at least he hoped that would be the case). I think Bush really did plan not to raise taxes. And, technically, Bill Clinton appears not to have had coitus with Monica Lewinsky. Yet, I can also understand why people have interpreted all of those as lies over the years. But all of these, regardless of one’s views on the infamy of any of these utterances, are in a different universe than telling a crowd a made-up stat so as to deflect from the horrible policy of family separation as well as to stoke fears of foreigners.
The president, on this fact, is either an idiot or a liar of the worst sort.
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Either the President of the United States is a knowing liar or he is very easily duped. Neither is a comforting thought.
Today, President Trump engaged in some grade A demagoguery to stir up xenophobia to help justify his tough stance on border security. Via WaPo : Trump answers critics of family separation policy with Americans ‘permanently separated’ from family by illegal immigrants .
Seeking to counter the intense criticism of his border policies, Trump invited families of Americans killed by undocumented immigrants to tell their stories of being “permanently separated” from loved ones.
“These are the stories that Democrats and people that are weak on immigration, they don’t want to discuss, they don’t want to hear, they don’t want to see, they don’t want to talk about,” Trump said at the White House.
First, yes, it is utterly tragic for anyone to be murdered or killed by another person. I can also understand why a family member would be outraged if a loved one was killed by someone who was in the country illegally (since it would be easy to play counter-factuals). But to use such examples is just stoking xenophobia and is not an adequate basis for making public policy decisions. It is yet another example of Trump demonizing immigrants.
But much, much worse is his engagement with fantasy to bolster his position :
“Sixty-three thousand Americans since 9/11 have been killed by illegal aliens. This isn’t a problem that’s going away; it’s getting bigger,” he said. “Sixty-three thousand, and that number they say is very low because things aren’t reported. Sixty-three thousand, and you don’t hear about that.”
There is a really, really good reason you don’t hear about that. It is because it isn’t true. As Snopes notes :
According to data provided for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there have been 260,743 homicides in the United States from 2002 through 2016 (the most recent year available.) It thus seems mathematically impossible that undocumented immigrants, who make up roughly 3 percent of the population, would have committed just under a quarter of all homicides in the United States during that time period. The bogus figure appears to have originated in a May 2006 post by Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa complaining about the “Day Without An Immigrant” campaign calling attention to the contributions of immigrants to U.S. community.
Even if one gives an expansive definition to “have been killed” to include things like drunk driving or accidents, the number is utterly nonsensical. It is the kind of thing a xenophobe and a racist says to gin up anti-immigrant fervor. It is a conscious lie or a sign of a gullibility that demonstrates pure incompetence. This is your crazy, drunk uncle claiming that because he saw it on the internet, it must be true. This is insidious coming from the President of the United States. Any educated person should be able to look at things like homicide stats, drunk driving stats, and just the general conditions under which people in the US are killed each year and work out that the numbers don’t add up.
Like I said in my post This Moment in Time , “A big part of this present moment is the degree to which supporters are comfortable being lied to.”
Who can defend this in any legitimate manner?
As an friend of mine I have know for many years said in the comments of that post:
So why lie? Not to convince, which is the purpose of having a dialogue among citizens and representatives in a democratic society, or where the rule of law compels people to make the most persuasive case about the proper interpretation and application of the law. Instead, it is the lie spoken to dominate — to demonstrate that you can say that the moon is really the sun, or that the Great Leader shot a hole-in-one his first time at the tee, and no one can really challenge you on it. Lies are not occasional, when they are expedient; they are a consistent, necessary tool for continually reminding people of who has power, and who does not.
While I just cited the use of the lie as a tool of domination in a totalitarian autocracy, it’s actually worse in a democracy. You may support the liar, and dismiss the lie as a personal pecadillo, or “just the way politicians talk” (a claim that’s always the last refuge of the politically and morally lazy). If you adopt this position, you have said to the person sitting next to you, in a restaurant, your place of worship, your workplace, the airport, your school, or the family gathering, that the compact among all of us is broken. There is no common interest. There is no shared reality. There are no agreed-upon standards for deciding the relative merits of arguments. You, through the mouth of your clan chieftain, speak. Others listen, and submit to the lies the way they must submit to your decisions, however cruel and unnecessary.
And, as noted in the quote, don’t kid yourself that “all politicians lie.” Yes, politicians spin, and dissemble, and shade the truth (as do most humans), but most are not boldly contradicting reality. Sometimes they are wrong, hopeful, and/or naive (“If you like the doctor you have, you can keep your doctor”), sometimes they mean it when they say it, only to have to take it back later (“Read me lips: no new taxes”), and sometimes they are self-serving in their accuracy while leaving out the broader truth (“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”).* And I do not want to re-litigate these quotes here, as that is not the point. I think Obama actually thought people could keep their doctors (or, at least he hoped that would be the case). I think Bush really did plan not to raise taxes. And, technically, Bill Clinton appears not to have had coitus with Monica Lewinsky. Yet, I can also understand why people have interpreted all of those as lies over the years. But all of these, regardless of one’s views on the infamy of any of these utterances, are in a different universe than telling a crowd a made-up stat so as to deflect from the horrible policy of family separation as well as to stoke fears of foreigners.
The president, on this fact, is either an idiot or a liar of the worst sort.
This is the kind of thing that simply had to be called out, because it is the kind of thing that can lead to real ugliness and danger for the group of people being lied about.
Also: we can all pretend like he was just referring to MS13 when he talked about “animals” but the reality is that impugns all immigrants (especially those from developing countries) on a near daily basis.
Those who have been raised to believe that anyone who is brown or, black are bad, simply because they are brown or, black. Don't ya know, brown and, black are the color the bad guys wear so, anyone who is naturally brown or, black have got to be bad. /s/
Ok so how many people did illegal aliens actually murder? Nobody knows. Snopes is reasoning that since illegal aliens only make up 3% of the population and there were 260,000 murders, illegals would have to have been responsible for 25% of them if they killed 63,000 people. Since that doesn’t seem possible, Snopes concludes Trump is lying or doesn’t know what he’s talking about (assuming Snopes knows the difference between the two).
However, a 2011 GAO study estimated that illegals killed 25,000 people even at that time. Its not clear to me whether GAO is updating a number that they gave in 2003 and mean to say that illegals have murdered 25,000 people since some date before 2003 or saying that they have killed 25,000 people since 2003. But since the point of the article is to say that Trump is spinning a tall tale, I’ll give Trump the benefit of the doubt and say that the GAO report is saying illegals killed 25,000 people between 2003 and 2011. I can’t find a more recent report.
If illegals can kill 25,000 people in 8 years (between 2003 and 2011) then it’s not inconceivable that they can kill 25,000 more people in the nearly 8 years that followed. That’s 50,000 murders and, although not the 63,000 that Trump claimed, is still shocking. And, no, I don’t care if illegals are less homocidal than Americans because illegals shouldn’t be here to kill anybody at all.
Forgot to post the GAO study.
The study includes legal immigrants.
So how many murders are committed by illegal aliens? And if we don’t know, then how is Trump lying?
You said the GAO study said illegal immigrants committed 25,000 murders. I didn't see that number, but I didn't read the entire report.
According to the terms used in report by their own admission, BOTH legal and illegals are included in their statistics. There are more legal non citizens than illegal non citizens in the US. So we can reasonably conclude that at least half of the murders you said were committed by illegals were actually committed by legal immigrants.
But illegal aliens may have a greater propensity to crime since they obviously have less respect for the law as proven by the fact that they broke it to enter the country. Even if illegal aliens only killed 25,000 people, that’s still 25,000 people who’d be alive if an illegal alien hadn’t been here to murder them.
However, in answer to your question, I have no way of knowing how many murders illegal aliens commit and neither does anybody else, including Snoops, yet Snopes labeled his statement “false”. If Trump is lying by making statements he can’t prove, then is Snopes lying by saying his statement is false when they can’t prove it’s false and their reason for saying it is just as speculative as his?
Well since Sabine Durden son's killer wasn't even charged with murder, we know he's lying about at least that one...
One down. Only 62,999 more to go before you prove he’s lying.
No.
I know, hence my comment.
This is a comment that is both wrong and confusing. You repeat that illegals killed the 25,000, even after I showed you why that is extremely unlikely. The report you cited used both legal and illegals in their ststistics, and there are more legals than illegals in America, so the legals likely committed more murders.
As for your idea that illegals will commit more crime because they are used to breaking the law, that doesnt make so much sense either. Illegal immigrants know that they will be deported if they commit a crime in America, so it is more likely that they are more careful or deliberative before doing crimes.
Just because legals may have likely killed more citizens than illegals doesn’t tell me how many illegals killed. If I say half the number in the report, then you say that’s too large. So how many did they kill? You don’t know. However many it is, it’s one too many because they shouldn’t be here to kill anybody at all.
They committed a crime to enter the country and they commit crimes after they get here so you’re argument about how careful they are doesn’t hold up.
Liberals apparently don't care how many crimes illegals commit. Catch and release seems to be the order of the day in sanctuary cites. I can't understand why decent citizens would want to protect and shelter a proven or suspected criminal, simply because the perp is an illegal. The case in San Francisco where the guy had been deported like five times is a good example. On his last return he shot and killed a young woman who was simply taking a walk with her dad.
Every time orange conman toddler in chief opens his mouth he lies.
How many illegals has this POS employed over the years, but that's okay doncha know
Trump and his criminal friends commit a lot more crime than illegals do.
Really?? That's the dumbest statement I have read here in a long time. Can you prove anything you say?
How many people have been killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11?
n , there have been 260,743 homicides in the United States from 2002 through 2016 (the most recent year available.) It thus seems mathematically impossible that undocumented immigrants, who make up roughly 3 percent of the population, would have committed just under a quarter of all homicides
By that logic, the black murder rate seems mathematically impossible.
A big part of this present moment is the degree to which supporters are comfortable being lied to.”
Ironic, given the lying and about the kids at the border issue from his opponents, huh?
I've believed for a while that Trump exaggerates numbers about things on purpose... because the media will jump on it and go "NO! There was actually only 10k people killed by illegals! (Or whatever the number may be)"
he gets the media talking about the actual murders by illegals which they normally wouldn't do. Meanwhile the average person hears the number and goes "well... it's not as many as Trump said BUT... that's still illegals killing people I didn't really hear about before. Why are people supporting more illegals here? Why are citizens not being out first? Those people may still be alive if the illegals weren't allowed here so easily."
:shrug:
Trump himself said," Words to me dont mean much, it's deeds that matter."
I take that to mean , I'll say anything I want to get what I want.
And you somehow have a problem with that? Don't ALL politicians and presidents do the same?
And you somehow have a problem with that?
Yep. Because I grew up and know that's no way to go thru life.
Why would you defend compulsive lying? Do the ends always justify the means?
Donald Trump didnt check to see if the 63,000 figure was correct. He just blabbered it out with no idea if it was true or not. He absolutely DOES NOT CARE whether or not what he says at any given time is true. And this is the asshole that some of you praise as the president of the United States.
During the campaign he falsely claimed that 85% of white murder victims are killed by blacks. He saw that in a tweet by a white supremacist and just repeated it without checking if it was real. It is NOT real. Trump never apologized or corrected his mistake. And he is still doing it.
So what? Why do you care?
I went looking for some information on the actual numbers. Haven’t been able to locate anything as of yet. I did however come across this.
It’s a memorial page dedicated to those who have lost their lives at the hands of an illegal alien.
There have been thousands of people hurt or killed by illegals over the years, and many of them have been gang members including MS-13. Some liberals hereabouts quibble about the numbers and say it's no big deal
I was reading through some of the names on the memorial page. It’s very sad.
It is with these families who grieve the loss of a loved one at the hands of an illegal alien, that my sympathy is.
Why are you trying to conflate that with kids fleeing horror trying to get asylum? And why would this loss be worse than a loss from a white supremacist? Or a gun nut? Or a drunk driver? One can abhor all of them and STILL have compassion for these families who have nothing to do with that. And is this the most humane and cost effective way to accomplish what Trump says he wants? Follow the money and get back to me, because this debacle is costing far more than anything else (money and pain).
I think the title of this seed is...
Trump lies about the total of murders by immigrants
So that is what I was commenting on not kids fleeing in horror and seeking asylum. I have commented on those articles too and you have no idea what my opinion is on that subject so don't pretend that you do. Don't try to twist my words to fit some preconceived notion you have made up in your own mind. LMAO
I avoid you on this forum because I find you to be very rude and you somehow think you are smarter then everyone else. I also see you try to twist peoples words. That will not work with me. Scurry along and try to harass someone else. I will now continue to ignore you as I have done in the past.
BFD. Who the hell are you anyway? People usually don't like to be called out for lying, and I'm done letting them stand. Trump is lying about his stats AND he is lying that most of the people coming in asking for asylum are here committing them. And for people who constantly crow about liking 'non pc' and 'telling it like it is', they are pretty wimpy when it comes back. (you aren't even worth ignoring)
Yet here you are three days later acting like I give a flying rats ass what your opinion is. Please, you think too highly of yourself.
It gets too easy to prove John wrong. it doesn't matter if Trumps specific number is right or wrong. What matters is that many people are being murdered by ILLEGALS
"According to the FBI, 67,642 murders were committed in the U.S. from 2005 through 2008, and 115,717 from 2003 through 2009. The General Accounting Office documents that criminal immigrants committed 25,064 of these murders.
Illegal immigrants clearly commit a level of violent and drug related crimes disproportionate to their population.
In California alone, over 2,400 illegal immigrants out of a total prison population of 130,000 are imprisoned in the state’s prison system for the crime of homicide.
In California, there are just over 92 illegal immigrants imprisoned for every 100,000 illegals as compared to 74 citizens and legal non-citizen immigrants. In Arizona, the rate is nearly 69 illegals imprisoned for every 100,000, as compared to 54 citizens and legal non-citizen immigrants.
In New York, over three times as many illegal immigrants or 169, are imprisoned for crimes per 100,000, as compared to only 48 citizens and legal non-citizen immigrants. Only the states of Texas and Florida do illegal immigrants commit less crimes than their legal immigrant counterparts (Texas with 54.5 illegals imprisoned per 100,000, compared to 65 legal immigrants and Florida with 55 illegals imprisoned, compared to 68 legal immigrants).
Recent crime analysis by both the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and Texas law enforcement authorities indicate that between June 2011 and March 2017, over 217,000 criminal immigrants were arrested and booked into Texas jails.
In researching the criminal careers of these defendants, it was revealed that they had jointly committed over nearly 600,000 criminal offenses. Their arrests included nearly 1,200 homicides; almost 69,000 assaults; 16,854 burglaries; 700 kidnappings; nearly 6,200 sexual assaults; 69,000 drug offenses; 8,700 weapons violations; over 3,800 robberies and over 45,000 obstructing police charges. In determining the status of these offenders in the U.S., it was confirmed by DHS that over 173,000 or 66 percent of these immigrant criminal defendants were in our country illegally at the times of their arrests."
Conservatives keep saying that one murder by an illegal immigrant is too many. You can ignore this argument because we have 30,000 deaths by guns and they won’t even allow that problem to be studied. A death is only important to conservatives when it supports their position, in other cases it’s not important at all. If conservatives cared about gun deaths, that problem would be taking the same trajectory as auto deaths. The difference between, for example, school shootings and murders by illegals is conservative prejudice against immigrants.
Conservative also say things like “Liberals apparently don't care how many crimes illegals commit”, but this is false. Obama’s ICE policy was to track down criminal illegals and recent arrivals. I.e. protect Americans and seal the boarders. He was very successful, earning the title “Deporter-in-Chief” from Hispanics. The Trump policy of deporting people who are contributing members of our society is stupid, it wastes resources that should be used to seal the boarders and protect Americans.
Not to the NT drama queen conservatives. You'd thing an illegal alien sold their children in the sex trade business while peeing in their Arnold Palmer. I bet not a single one of them has been personally impacted by an illegal alien.
Trump's immigration policy is driven by Stephen Miller, who is a white nationalist.
It's "funny" how Trump is getting all revved up about this issue just as an important election begins to draw closer.
If only you participated here by those standards...
Spot on!!
Have Undocumented Immigrants Killed 63,000 American Citizens Since 11 September 2001?
The figure would mean undocumented immigrants, who account for roughly 3 percent of the population, would have to commit about one quarter of the nation's homicides.
CLAIM
Undocumented immigrants have killed 63,000 U.S. citizens since 9/11.
RATING
ORIGIN
On 22 June 2018, in the middle of a family separation crisis caused by the Trump administration’s botched “zero tolerance” policy, United States President Donald Trump himself recycled a claim that undocumented immigrants committed an abnormally large number of homicides in the United States.
“Sixty-three thousand Americans since 9/11 have been killed by illegal aliens,” the president said . “This isn’t a problem that’s going away, it’s getting bigger.”
Not only is there no evidence for his claim, it would require a seemingly superhuman murder spree by the nation’s roughly 11 million undocumented immigrants.
The event was held amid a cascade of public outcry against internment camps established by the government for undocumented children, which prompted the Trump administration to quickly change course and order undocumented families to be held together — while seeking the ability to do so indefinitely. But while the president accused reporters of failing to cover this alleged rash of homicides, the numbers do not support this claim.
According to data provided for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there have been 260,743 homicides in the United States from 2002 through 2016 (the most recent year available.) It thus seems mathematically impossible that undocumented immigrants, who make up roughly 3 percent of the population, would have committed just under a quarter of all homicides in the United States during that time period. The bogus figure appears to have originated in a May 2006 post by Republican Rep. Steve King of Iowa complaining about the “Day Without An Immigrant” campaign calling attention to the contributions of immigrants to U.S. community.
Without undocumented immigrants, he said, no one would smuggle drugs across the U.S.-Mexico border, and non-immigrants would be safer:
A rate of 33 “deaths” per day for the roughly 4.5 years between the 9/11 attacks and the publication of King’s unsubstantiated claim would come out to 48,180 deaths in total, a rate that would far surpass the 63,000 number by 2018 — if it was legitimate.
Three years later, in 2009, King (who has a history of racist public statements) misrepresented a report from the Government Accountability Office, claiming that 25,064 undocumented immigrants had been arrested for homicides between 2004 and 2008. In fact, the statistic covered the time period between August 1955 and April 2010, a difference of nearly 51 years. The first, fraudulent timeframe would work out to about 17 arrests per day; the real timeframe works out to approximately 1.25 arrests of undocumented people for homicide per day, or 456 arrests per year.
If we multiply that figure by eighteen just to be generous (11 September 2001 to 22 June 2018), we get a final figure of about 8,218 arrests, as opposed to the faulty metric, which yields a total of around 112,790 homicide arrests in the same timeframe. (We will, for now, ignore the fact that arrests are not the same as convictions, and note that we did not factor in leap days.) So the numbers in the claim fall flat on both the amount of murders committed and the arrests and convictions made in those murders.
In March 2018 an Arizona woman, Mary Ann Mendoza, reportedly related to the president the claim that “63,000” United States citizens had been killed by undocumented immigrants. Mendoza’s son was killed in 2014 by an undocumented drunk driver.
Although the president has attempted to cast immigrants as criminals since he first announced his candidacy in June 2015, various analyses have already undermined the notion that people in the United States without documentation were more likely to commit crimes in general than those born in the country. One of those studies, published in February 2018 by the libertarian group Cato Institute, examined data on criminal convictions in Texas for 2015 and found:
Although the Trump administration has called immigration at the southern U.S. border a “crisis” that has a deleterious effect on public safety, unauthorized border crossings are currently the lowest they have been in decades and studies have consistently disproved links between immigration and crime. Further most of the families who crossed during enforcement of Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy were charged with misdemeanors .
As Charlie Cooke has pointed out, Trump has taken a trolling technique from Barack Obama and redeployed it against Democrats. Obama, famously, would overstate his argument on a contentious position because he knew it enrage Conservatives and get them to engage on a topic that Obama wanted to keep front and center in the public eye. This from John Dickerson in 2014 about Barack Obama:
Under this approach, a president wants the fact-checkers to call him out (again and again ) because that hubbub keeps the issue in the news, which is good for promoting the issue to the public. It is the political equivalent of “there is no such thing as bad publicity” or the quote attributed to Mae West ( and others ): “I don't care what the newspapers say about me as long as they spell my name right.” The tactic represents one more step in the embrace of cynicism that has characterized President Obama's journey in office
Trump, channeling Obama, knows he benefits when the topic is illegal immigration, so he spouts an unverifiable fact that engenders outrage. Now, we are arguing over just how many many citizens haven been murdered by illegal immigrants, which is a good topic for him politically.
Sad that Trump follows Obama's example, but you can see why he does it.
Wow that's delusional.
You give Trump FAR too much credit. Trump LIES just to LIE. There is little to NO strategy behind it. His sycophants don't "fact check him' and any time his opponents do, his sycophants insist that it isn't about the lies, it's about his opponents hate for Trump. It happens here all of the time.
It is very delusional. Donald Trump has been a pathological liar for many decades, long before he decided to run for office.
I'm sure that you think your handy dandy meme's make cogent points Norman. I'm here to tell you that they don't, especially when you just slap one up that doesn't even come close to addressing the post that you pretend to be replying to.
It's obvious that no amount of shaming will effect your juvenile pursuit of being the king of memes but posting the equivalent of an arm fart isn't something to be proud of.
I fully expect another meme or a line of emojis as a reply. It seems to be the go to for those that are incapable of adult verbal expression.
We can extrapolate the number of murders committed by illegals by combining data.