Rep. Pramila Jayapal: Student debt cancellation is 'racial justice,' 'gender justice,' 'economic justice' | Fox Business

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  texan1211  •  one month ago  •  179 comments

By:   Andrew Mark Miller (Fox Business)

Rep. Pramila Jayapal: Student debt cancellation is 'racial justice,' 'gender justice,' 'economic justice' | Fox Business
Progressive Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal claimed on Twitter that student debt cancellation is a form of racial, gender, and economic justice.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Progressive Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal claimed on Twitter that student debt cancellation is a form of racial, gender, and economic justice.

"Student debt cancellation is racial justice, Student debt cancellation is gender justice, Student debt cancellation is economic justice," the Washington state Democrat tweeted on Saturday.

Rep. Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., speaks to reporters as she walks out of a House Democratic Progressive Caucus meeting on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, Oct. 28, 2021. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik / AP Newsroom)

Jayapal has been a vocal proponent for canceling all student debt and posted earlier this week that doing so would help "close the racial wealth gap."

Jayapal also posted a link to a poll that found a majority of Americans support canceling student loan debt.

The Biden administration is expected to freeze federal student loan payments through Aug. 31, extending a moratorium that has allowed millions of Americans to postpone payments during the coronavirus pandemic, according to an administration official familiar with the White House's decision-making.

Student loan payments were scheduled to resume May 1 after being halted since early in the pandemic. But following calls from Democrats in Congress, the White House plans to give borrowers additional time to prepare for payments.

Democrats on education panels in the House and Senate recently urged President Biden to extend the moratorium through the end of the year, citing continued economic upheaval.

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said during a press briefing earlier this month that the Biden administration has "not ruled out" canceling student loan debt on a "wide scale" via executive action.

More than 43 million Americans owe a combined $1.6 trillion in student debt held by the federal government, according to the latest data from the Education Department. That includes more than 7 million borrowers who have defaulted on student loans, meaning they are at least 270 days late on payments.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.


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Texan1211
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Texan1211    one month ago

Looks like at least one Democrat noticed how young people are veering away from supporting Biden, this seems like a desperate effort to buy their votes this fall.

Racial justice? 

Gender justice?

Economic justice?

What in the world kind of drug is this loopy woman taking??

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @1    one month ago

That woman is a idiot!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @1.1    one month ago

yes, she sure is!

She'll probably spend a few decades in Congress.

Yay.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
1.1.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.1    one month ago

Yep, another homesteader in Congress.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
2  seeder  Texan1211    one month ago

I suppose the fact that the Administration is considering cancelling all student debt and giving extensions on the moratorium ceasing payments is really just the Administration begrudgingly admitting that the economy just ain't as swell as they proclaimed earlier and inflation isn't just temporary.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
3  Freewill    one month ago
More than 43 million Americans owe a combined $1.6 trillion in student debt held by the federal government, according to the latest data from the Education Department. 

In addition to that $1.6 Trillion in Federal Student Loan Debt, there is another $132 billion in private student loan debt.  Many middle class Americans cannot qualify for the lower interest rate Federal loans to begin with. 

How many people understand that student loan debt of any kind cannot be discharged via bankruptcy?  A default means that one's wages will be garnished indefinitely until the debt is paid.

Furthermore, since March 2020 people with Federal student loans (including Stafford, Perkins and Parent Plus) have enjoyed a Covid forbearance of 0% interest and no payments necessary, and that was recently extended on April 6 again by the Biden Administration until Aug 31, 2022.  And they have been talking of extending it further into 2023 .   So in reality the forgiveness of at least the interest over that period of time has already begun. There is also expanded Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) available to those who work for local, state or federal governments, most kicking in after 5 or 10 years of normal payments.  So this isn't "coming" folks, it is already here.

That includes more than 7 million borrowers who have defaulted on student loans, meaning they are at least 270 days late on payments.

During the ongoing Covid forbearance (which has been in effect for far more than 270 days) nobody is defaulting on their Federal loans who hadn't already been in default before March 2020. And as I mentioned above, one way or another the Federal Government will collect despite the "default".

Let us not forget that the "student loan debt" comes as a result of the skyrocketing cost of higher education and housing, so it is merely a symptom of the real underlying problem.  Perhaps rather than focusing on taxpayer funded cancellation of the debt, we should also be focusing on what caused it in the first place.  

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Freewill @3    one month ago
Let us not forget that the "student loan debt" comes as a result of the skyrocketing cost of higher education and housing

What are these costs?

"Students at public four-year institutions paid an average of $3,190 in tuition for the 1987-1988 school year, with prices adjusted to reflect 2017 dollars. Thirty years later, that average has risen to $9,970 for the 2017-2018 school year. That’s a 213 percent increase."



Could it be that these increased cost were a result of nothing more than administrative bloat?

Were faculty loads increased or were they decreased?

Were Teacher salaries/enhancements dramatically increased over the thirty year period?  If so why?  The education of the students clearly hadn't improved. While all of that was going on, what happened to the inductive method?

Once we start thinking about why these costs went up and what higher education has become, we end up with an indictment of academia.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.1  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1    one month ago

Colleges and universities found a loophole to increase revenues, fees. Tuition and tuition increases at state institutions are legislated, but fees were not. "Class fees" per credit hour, which were once minimal, are now often as much or more than the cost of tuition.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @3.1.1    one month ago

A 213% increase requires some kind of justification.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.3  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.2    one month ago

Given the time frame you give us and knowing what we know now we must lay the blame squarely on the moronic supply side trickle down voodoo economic policies instituted by Reagan and the Bushs that resulted in their students, instead of the taxpayers, bearing more and more of the costs to operate of our universities. Then just throw in low interest rates and easy credit lending...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @3.1.3    one month ago
Then just throw in low interest rates and easy credit lending...

In the 80's, I paid 18% interest on my mortgage.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.1    one month ago
"Class fees" per credit hour, which were once minimal, are now often as much or more than the cost of tuition.

Yet these state schools are non-profit.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.3    one month ago
moronic supply side trickle down voodoo economic policies instituted by Reagan and the Bushs that resulted

Why, during the 8 Clinton years and 8 Obama years, were they unable to rescue us from Reagan?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.7  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.6    one month ago

Look it up...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.8  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.4    one month ago

Yes and a new house cost about a tenth as much in 1980 because the cost of housing and interest rates are inversely proportional.

Part and parcel of Reaganomics was giving working people more and more easy credit and ever less and less pay raises...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.9  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.7    one month ago
Look it up...

Good suggestion, thanks.  Google search revealed that Clinton couldn't and Obama didn't try to rescue us from Reagan.  Obama praised the Reagan presidency:

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times...I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."  Obama 2007

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.10  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.6    one month ago

So blaming everything on the Democrats, as usual?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.11  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @3.1.8    one month ago
a new house cost about a tenth as much in 1980

Ahh yes, the Carter years...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.12  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.10    one month ago

Blame or explain?  Welcome back Tessylo, I missed you.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.13  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.12    one month ago

Blame - funny how it's only the Democrats who get the blame. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.13    one month ago
funny how it's only the Democrats who get the blame. 

Blame?  I don't think that Bush II or Trump wanted to change Reagan policies.  Apparently, Obama didn't want to either.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.14    one month ago

Blame I'm sure is all you have for Democrats . 

I'm sure President Obama wanted to but was obstructed by the DO NOTHING republicans EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.15    one month ago
Blame I'm sure is all you have for Democrats . 

I've written nothing of blame.  

I'm sure President Obama wanted to but was obstructed by the DO NOTHING republicans EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. 

Dems controlled the House 2009-2011 and the Senate all of his years.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.17  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.16    one month ago
"I've written nothing of blame."

That's all you've done.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.18  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.17    one month ago

I'm sorry that I've confused you, Tessylo.  I try to write more clearly in the future.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
3.1.19  Snuffy  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.16    one month ago

Some posters refuse to discuss and will only reply with the standard "nah nah's".  It's a shame.  The same posters will refuse to research themselves and will not read any presented research which is also a shame.  But for your review...

All I can read in this is that Obama didn't even try to do anything for the student loan problems except to enhance the powers of the federal government.  Now this may by typical of politicians who promise the world as a candidate and once in office discover that they are unable to fill their promises,  I don't know his mind well enough to know his thought process behind it.  All I can do is review what was promised and what actions were actually taken.

Of course the source is from The Hill which is slanted which is why I also included a link to a story from the Wall Street Journal.  But it's difficult to find any source these days that is not biased and slanted to any degree.  Doesn't mean the facts are false, just means they are painted with a bias.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.20  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.18    one month ago

You didn't confuse me.  You don't have that ability.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.21  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.19    one month ago

I'm not the topic of this article snuffy.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.22  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.19    one month ago

Thanks for the input. I was discussing the lack of turning around of Reagan policies that JBB mentioned in 3.1.3.  You bring up a good point that I had forgotten.  Obama federalized the student loan program and used the interest students paid to help offset ObamaCare.  He had the student loans structured to amortize like a mortgage, with debtors mostly paying interest early on and principal later. That keeps lot's of young borrowers paying mostly interest and it keeps the portion of all collections going to interest fairly high.  Government profits on student loans may mean that loan forgivement pay get a lot but little action.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.23  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.21    one month ago

Tessylo, please don't assume that it's about you.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.24  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.16    one month ago
Dems controlled the House 2009-2011 and the Senate all of his years.

Details ..... details ....

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.20    one month ago

Good, I don't want to feel responsible for the things you claim.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.26  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.24    one month ago

Some readers here may be to young to remember 10 years ago.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.27  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.23    one month ago
"Tessylo, please don't assume that it's about you."
"Some posters refuse to discuss and will only reply with the standard "nah nah's".  It's a shame.  The same posters will refuse to research themselves and will not read any presented research which is also a shame."

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.28  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.25    one month ago
jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
3.1.29  Snuffy  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.27    one month ago

That's why I didn't reply to you, my reply was to someone else.

I can't help if you identify with what I wrote.  But if it bothers you maybe you could work on that aspect.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.30  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.28    one month ago

Thanks, I love your clever use of emotive emojis.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.31  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @3.1.29    one month ago

It's just typical snuffy.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.32  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.26    one month ago

True but memory is just a convenience for some folks.    Break that glass if and only if it supports the narrative du jour.

Otherwise ..... no breakie da glass ......

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
3.1.33  Jack_TX  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.2    one month ago
A 213% increase requires some kind of justification.

The justification is... "they can".  It's simple, really.

For decades they've told every child in every school in America that they'll never get ahead without a college degree.  So demand has been driven through the roof.

They then created dozens of hopelessly easy degrees so we graduate the dumb kids without having to bother to teach them how to do very much writing and almost no math or science... i.e... they built products to meet the demand.

They then arrange financing options with the US Govt, based solely on the difference between what they charge and what the kid's family can supposedly afford.  No credit checks, no feasibility checks, no "is this whole endeavor a really stupid idea" checks, nothing.

Combine ingredients, let simmer, and presto....you have a $300,000 gender studies degree with $280k in student debt, and $100k added to the university bottom line.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
3.1.34  Jack_TX  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @3.1.26    one month ago
Some readers here may be to young to remember 10 years ago.

And some are undoubtedly too old to remember 10 years ago.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.35  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.34    one month ago
And some are undoubtedly too old to remember 10 years ago.

What are we talking about?  What did I come into this room for?

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.36  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.21    one month ago

Snuffy did not even mention you by name. Feeling a bit paranoid here?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.1.37  Tessylo  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.36    one month ago

Okay, I believe snuffy.  So do you want to make me the topic of the article?

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.38  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.37    one month ago

Do you want to be?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.39  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.37    one month ago

There's somethin' happenin' here
But what it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
A-tellin' me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop
Children, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down

There's battle lines being drawn
And nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speakin' their minds
A-gettin' so much resistance from behind

I think it's time we stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down

What a field day for the heat (ooh-ooh-ooh)
A thousand people in the street (ooh-ooh-ooh)
Singin' songs and a-carryin' signs (ooh-ooh-ooh)
Mostly say "Hooray for our side" (ooh-ooh-ooh)

It's time we stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line
The man come and take you away

We better stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down

Stop, hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down (we better)

Stop, now, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down (we better)

Stop, children, what's that sound?
Everybody look what's going down

Songwriter: Stephen Stills

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1.40  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.33    one month ago
For decades they've told every child in every school in America that they'll never get ahead without a college degree. 

So true. 


They then created dozens of hopelessly easy degrees so we graduate the dumb kids without having to bother to teach them how to do very much writing and almost no math or science... i.e... they built products to meet the demand.

Very true.


They then arrange financing options with the US Govt, based solely on the difference between what they charge and what the kid's family can supposedly afford.  No credit checks, no feasibility checks, no "is this whole endeavor a really stupid idea" checks, nothing.

In 2010 Obama got the government into the student loan business and tuition took a big jump.


Combine ingredients, let simmer, and presto....you have a $300,000 gender studies degree with $280k in student debt, and $100k added to the university bottom line.

And we all know what kind of a future a gender studies degree provides for.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
3.1.41  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.40    one month ago

original

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
3.1.42  Jack_TX  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.1.40    one month ago
In 2010 Obama got the government into the student loan business and tuition took a big jump.

It predates Obama by a very long time.

I'm not sure how we as Americans miss the fact that whenever people can use government money to pay for something, the price takes off.  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
3.1.43  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jack_TX @3.1.42    one month ago
It predates Obama by a very long time.

Exactly, all Obama did was to federalize it so all the upfront interest payments went into the US Treasury to help offset the cost of Obamacare.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.1.44  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Sparty On @3.1.24    one month ago

Who is in charge of the government now as well?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.1.45  Sparty On  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.1.44    one month ago

Lol ... it’s Trumps fault ..... and still Dubya’s as well.

jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
MonsterMash
Sophomore Participates
3.1.46  MonsterMash  replied to  Tessylo @3.1.20    one month ago
You didn't confuse me.  You don't have that ability.

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_30_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4  Ronin2    one month ago

Midterms will be economic, tax payer, and sanity justice.

Democrats and free shit that cost taxpayer trillions and drive up the national debt. Will their stupidity ever end?

What about those of us that worked hard and repaid our college loans and debt? Where is our refund for being responsible money managers?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Ronin2 @4    one month ago
What about those of us that worked hard and repaid our college loans and debt? Where is our refund for being responsible money managers?

It seems the politically correct thing to do nowadays is to punish those who are responsible while excusing folks who aren't.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
5  Sparty On    one month ago

In my neck of the woods, funds earmarked for COVID-19 relief efforts are now being used to repair infrastructure, roads, bridges, etc.

That is how messed up our legislative branch is on what they say, and actually do spend our tax dollars on.

It’s FUBAR .....

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6  seeder  Texan1211    one month ago

Using the same logic as people who are calling for reparations to today's blacks for slavery, shouldn't the federal government also make this policy of forgiving student debt retroactive so responsible people who worked and paid their loans off should get refunds?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
6.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Texan1211 @6    one month ago

My wife and I will be happy to accept refunds for the money we saved and spent on our child’s college and grad school.  No interest required even though the paid back money isn’t worth nearly as much as when we saved it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.1.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @6.1    one month ago
My wife and I will be happy to accept refunds for the money we saved and spent on our child’s college and grad school.  No interest required even though the paid back money isn’t worth nearly as much as when we saved it.

And I think if they cancel current debts, they should refund your money, too!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @6    one month ago

Yes .... let’s really kick that can down the road.

Screw the younger generations ...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
6.2.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @6.2    one month ago
Screw the younger generations ...

We already have.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
6.2.2  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @6.2.1    one month ago

It’s funny really, many of the people who support stuff like this are the ones bitching about how previous generations have screwed them doing the same sorts of things.

An interesting duality to say the least.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
7  Sean Treacy    one month ago

That's weird.  Democrats keep claiming the economy is doing great, yet somehow emergency relief is still necessary? 

But of course, student debt relief is welfare for the upper and middle classes who Democrats are trying to woo.. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
7.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Sean Treacy @7    one month ago
That's weird.  Democrats keep claiming the economy is doing great, yet somehow emergency relief is still necessary? 

Pretty inconsistent "messaging" from the Biden/Harris Administration.

Gee, who'd have guessed?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
8  seeder  Texan1211    one month ago

It would be interesting to hear from some of the folks who claim the economy is doing just great under Biden an explanation of why this is at all necessary.

I'm thinking it might be too much spinning involved.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
9  charger 383    one month ago

If a debt is canceled, who pays?  It does not magically disappear

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
9.1  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  charger 383 @9    one month ago
If a debt is canceled, who pays?  It does not magically disappear

Well, in the words of our esteemed Congresswoman from New York, AOC--

“You just pay for it.

Apparently money just appears and you pay for it!

So damn simple I am surprised no one in history ever thought of it before!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
10  seeder  Texan1211    one month ago

I guess if you can not pass legislation for free tuition for all, then just do the next best thing to work around it---forgive all the debts!

Sounds like a Democrat has the perfect solution to working with Congress.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
10.1  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @10    one month ago

And the Dems figurehead for all this is a multi-millionaire.

The irony of all ironies ....

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
10.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Texan1211 @10    one month ago

And trump is supposed to be the dictator.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
11  Snuffy    one month ago

I expect the cry for this to increase as we get closer to the mid-terms.  Biden and the Democrats have lost too much support from the Gen-Z and Gen-X groups and they will figure they need to do something huge and grand to make up the difference.  Will they do it?  Time will tell.

But I am unsure if the President himself has the authority to forgive the debt.  I know it's been talked about back and forth but I don't know of a court case that has settled this, does anybody know for sure one way or another?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
12  Tacos!    one month ago
student debt cancellation is a form of racial, gender, and economic justice

I mean, it might be - arguably - economic justice. But racial justice? That’s dumb. And gender justice? That’s an even bigger WTF. Rather than make a real argument for loan forgiveness, this person is using political buzzwords as an appeal to emotion.

There’s no denying that the student loan racket is fucking this country up. And while my general impulse is to hold individuals accountable for their life choices, this is not all their fault, I think.

Firstly, for 40 years or more, our young people have been sold a bill of goods. They have been told they’re failures if they don’t get a bachelor’s degree. That’s bullshit. Furthermore, they won’t get a good job or be able to support themselves without it. Also, bullshit. And then if they do get that degree, the job offers will just pour in. Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Then they’re told they need to go to a “good college” - the more prestigious, the better. The truth is employers rarely give a shit what college you went to. Kids are almost never counseled to go to the cheap school that best fits their goals.

They are also told that every other kind of education is useless. Bullshit. The world needs mechanics and welders and assemblers and painters and just general ditch diggers, and college doesn’t usually teach that. If you want to talk about useless, there are plenty of lame majors in college. Almost any art major. Most of the social sciences. English. English? Who gets a degree in their mother tongue?

And then we get to the loan process. Everybody going to college has to fill out the FAFSA form, even if they plan on paying cash all the way through. But as soon as you submit the form, they tell you how much you qualify for in student loans. They make it seem like a prize. And kids are like “Hooray! I just won the college lotto and they’re going to give me $X0,000!” 

And because this money is guaranteed from the government to the schools, the schools have freely jacked up their tuition rates. Where does that money go? Not into the students, that’s for fucking sure! It goes into the administration, which has doubled or tripled in size at many schools over the last couple of decades, and the salaries of all those employees - old and new - have gone way up.

Hmmm . . . I guess a major in gender or racial studies wouldn’t be completely useless because you can always get a job in the gender equity department of some bloated college administration.

The money also goes into unnecessary new buildings. And the rising costs just create the need for higher tuitions, which is fine because the students will just take out a loan to pay for it.

It’s a predatory cycle that needs to stop. Part of that may yet involve some level of loan forgiveness, but the whole system needs be reformed.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
12.1  JBB  replied to  Tacos! @12    one month ago

In the mid 1970s my entire four year degree from a major midwestern state university cost $12,000 including tuition, room, board, books, fees, beer, weed, pizza, cigarettes and pocket money...

My new niece in law owes over one hundred and fifty thousand dollars for her four year nursing degree from the same institution. Borrowing!

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @12.1    one month ago

What are your thoughts on why the tuition has skyrocketed well past inflation?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.2  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.1.1    one month ago

If I may, $12 grand in 2022 dollars is about 90k.    

So we have another 60k or so to find.    I blame mainly academic greed and kingdom building.    Enrollment at my college is down from the peak when I was there in the 70’s and yet they have more housing (much, much nicer housing by the way) and nearly 50% more academic space and buildings.

But their kingdom is much nicer than when I was there.

So they have that to pay for ....


 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.3  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @12.1    one month ago

say, aren't you one of those always touting how great the Biden economy is?

if its so great, why won't they make people pay back their loans?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
12.1.4  JBB  replied to  Sparty On @12.1.2    one month ago

I said mid 1970s. $12,000 in 1975 dollars works out to about $56,000 today. I paid my own way working hard unskilled labor for $5.00 per hour. It would take about $30 an hour to equal that today but those kinds of jobs only pay about $15 per hour today...

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.5  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @12.1.4    one month ago

In Biden's wonderful economy, why can't people pay their debts?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.6  Sparty On  replied to  JBB @12.1.4    one month ago

Closer to 65k but who’s counting ... and you aren’t helping the case for inflated college costs.    

Perhaps you can now answer the question that was posed.   Why do you think they’ve inflated at such a high rate? 

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
12.1.7  JBB  replied to  Sparty On @12.1.6    one month ago

Quibble if you must but my point remains the same. The cost of tuition, room, board, fees, books, housing and every other cost related to getting a college degree have grown a lot faster than minimum wage and inflation rate.

Low rates and borrowing changed the whole equation. The demand for college degrees increased faster than the number of slots at major universities and elite private  colleges. Supply and demand. Supply and demand...

This is not something that just became a big problem in the last year. The growing cost of higher education was actually fueled by low rates and easy credit like the cost of homes.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.8  Sparty On  replied to  JBB @12.1.7    one month ago

Lol .... up until Biden took over, inflation has been more or less reasonable most of the last 30-40 years.    College cost increases have far outpaced inflation in that time period and it isn’t even close.

Inflation isn’t even in the top five causes.    Not until Biden took over that is.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
12.1.9  JBB  replied to  Sparty On @12.1.8    one month ago

That is the point. While inflation was relatively low in the rest of the economy the last thirty five years or so the costs associated with higher education grew much faster than prices for everything else. Student loan debt was a major issue long before Joe Biden. You act like it suddenly sprang out of nowhere this year!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.10  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @12.1.9    one month ago

In the fantastic Biden economy which you have proudly touted before, why can't people pay their debts?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.11  Sparty On  replied to  JBB @12.1.9    one month ago

Bullshit, inflation is THE best measure of rising costs in our economy and college costs have outpaced inflation several times.

Inflation IS NOT the main cause of higher college costs.   Period.    

This can not be refuted by anything but flawed logic and lies.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.12  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @12.1.11    one month ago

Isn't it rather odd that people who claim the economy is GREAT can't even offer up ANY excuse why people can't pay their debts?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.13  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.12    one month ago

Good point

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
12.1.14  seeder  Texan1211  replied to  Sparty On @12.1.13    one month ago

Yeah, but he won't even take a stab at answering the question.

I guess it is too hard to spin the truth after claiming that the Biden economy is fantastic!

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.1.15  Sparty On  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.14    one month ago

It’s pretty hard when you don’t have the truth.    A few people here do push their false narratives quite well though.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
12.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @12    one month ago
I mean, it might be - arguably - economic justice.

I'm curious how you would argue the economic justice idea.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
12.2.1  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2    one month ago

My whole comment is the argument. I guess before I go to the trouble of clarifying or rewriting it, I’ll just invite you to read it again and then come back with any questions you might have.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
12.2.2  JBB  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2    one month ago

Ever heard of a hand up instead of a handout? Means testing could make forgivness only eligible to those trapped with big student loan debts and no way of ever paying them all off.

A lot of people were prey to predatory lenders.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
12.2.3  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @12.2.1    one month ago
My whole comment is the argument. I guess before I go to the trouble of clarifying or rewriting it, I’ll just invite you to read it again and then come back with any questions you might have.

I don't want to misrepresent your ideas.

My interpretation would go along the lines of "these kids have been taken advantage of by a quasi-corrupt university system, so bailing them out of their loans would make up for some of that".  

I guess my question would be along the lines of "how does transferring that debt to the taxpayers....many of whom worked very hard to stay out of student debt...represent justice.?"  

It would seem to me that justice would be making the universities give them some of their money back rather than making people who will never benefit from a degree pay for the ones who will.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Senior Quiet
12.2.4  Jack_TX  replied to  JBB @12.2.2    one month ago
Ever heard of a hand up instead of a handout? Means testing could make forgivness only eligible to those trapped with big student loan debts and no way of ever paying them all off. A lot of people were prey to predatory lenders.

Most were prey to predatory universities. 

It's an odd concept, really.  If you paid $100k for a car that didn't do half of what you were told it would do, would you be screaming at the bank who loaned you the money or the car dealer that sold you this piece of junk?  The dealer, of course.  But because it's a school, suggesting they're ripping people off is some sort of holy ground that must not be entered.

This issue depresses me more than most.  It's the easiest problem in the world to solve, everybody knows how to do it, and absolutely nobody will even talk about the solution because it's better for their politics to fight about it rather than fix it.

It's all in the math, and the math is very, very simple.

These folks (my daughter is one) don't have a debt problem.  They have a payment problem.  It's all about cash flow. 

Some of these kids have taken out loans large enough to buy a house.  How many mortgages are amortized over 10 years?  Almost none.  Why?  The payments would be debilitating.

If you have a $30k student loan, paid over 10 years, your payments are about $310/mo.  That same loan paid over 30 years would cost $149/mo.  You have this burden while you're making the least amount of money you probably ever will.

All we need to do is refinance every student loan on a 30 year basis at current interest rates with no prepayment penalty.  Cut everybody's payments in half, let them get off the ground financially, and then they can pay the loan off more aggressively when they're making more money.  Easy peasy.

But if we solve that, AOC, Bernie, Liz and Jayapal will have one less batshit fantasy to campaign on, and Cruz, MGT, Hawley etc will have one less evil liberal machination to campaign against.  So nothing is going to happen.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
12.2.5  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @12.2.3    one month ago
I guess my question would be along the lines of "how does transferring that debt to the taxpayers....many of whom worked very hard to stay out of student debt...represent justice.?"

Right. Fair question. Here’s a couple thoughts.

First, the precedent has been set for a long time that when some person or group is wronged by the government, tax payers get the bill. It sucks, but I can’t think of another way to approach it other than not allowing people to sue the government. And the government is definitely complicit in this scam.

Second, I think society as a whole is responsible for glorifying college way beyond what it deserves. It might be family, or school counselors, the entertainment industry - just all facets of our society. Young people are told over and over again that they cannot make it in the world as adults without a bachelor’s degree. And then beyond that, they are fed all this bullshit about how much better some schools are than others. Heck, the higher the tuition, the better a lot of people think a school must be.

And the “degree above all” marketing bullshit has allowed colleges to offer absurd degrees that basically open the door to no other career path except teaching the same useless classes to younger generations of suckers.

I do agree with your sentiment about making the schools pay instead of taxpayers, but unfortunately, some of that money is just gone forever. I would also like to see the schools made to function more efficiently, and not put so much on the backs of students. 

Besides, a lot these schools get so much money from private donors, you’d think they wouldn’t even need to charge tuition.

And to clarify, I think there is a very small number of scenarios where I would advocate full forgiveness of the loans. For example, if that degree was used in some kind of public service work that spanned some minimum number of years, then I would feel like the taxpayers maybe got their money’s worth.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @12.2.2    one month ago

A lot of people were prey to predatory lenders.

Hasn’t that been the federal government for the last 13 years?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.7  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.6    one month ago

Today, as I wrote a huge check to the Fed and the State of Michigan, I would agree wholeheartedly.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
12.2.8  charger 383  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.7    one month ago

I sent IRS the biggest check I ever wrote today.  Predatory is too nice of a term

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
12.2.9  Tacos!  replied to  charger 383 @12.2.8    one month ago

If it makes you feel better, they’ll be spending it on hookers and blow.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.10  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.7    one month ago

I owed and tried to send my return electronically on Saturday.  The site wanted two forms of ID, info off of my Drivers License and the number of Line 11 (AGI) from last year's 1040 Form.  I entered it and kept getting notified 30 minutes later that my summitted was rejected.  I printed and mailed the thick packet.  I've since learned that the IRS has around 8 million 2020 tax returns still to be processed.  If mine is one of them, that would be why my AGI wasn't recognized.  Since I owed them money, I guess I don't care how slow they are but very inefficient.    

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Masters Principal
12.2.11  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  charger 383 @12.2.8    one month ago

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I feel your pain my friend.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
12.2.12  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12.2.11    one month ago

Since North Carolina doesn't tax military retirement any longer, I got everything I paid to the state back.  Unfortunately it all had to go to the Federal side.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.13  Sparty On  replied to  charger 383 @12.2.8    one month ago
I sent IRS the biggest check I ever wrote today.

Me too for taxes

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.14  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.10    one month ago

Your check will get cashed very promptly though.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.15  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @12.2.11    one month ago

57% don't feel any pain at tax time, 57% of US households paid no federal income tax in 2021.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.16  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @12.2.12    one month ago

VA tax's military retirement, I owe but I don't mail that check until the end of April, a 15 day break.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
Masters Principal
12.2.17  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.15    one month ago

And the majority of those probably got a big chunk back come filing time.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.18  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.15    one month ago

Up to 57% now eh?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.19  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.15    one month ago

Why do you think 57% of US households paid no federal income tax in 2021?

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
12.2.20  Snuffy  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.18    one month ago
Up to 57% now eh?

It actually came down.  

The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimates that 57% of U.S. households paid no federal income taxes for 2021, up substantially from the 44% before the pandemic.

More than 100 million U.S. households, or 61% of all taxpayers, paid no federal income taxes last year, according to a report from the Tax Policy Center.

So an estimated 61% paid no federal taxes in 2020,  and 57% paid no federal taxes in 2021.  The reasoning in both articles is the same, this is due to Covid-relief funds, tax credits and stimulus, according to a new report.  These numbers are expected to drop as the Covid stimulus ends.  This high number may just be an outlier and will be back to just under 50% in the next year or so.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.19    one month ago

Our federal income tax is very progressive.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.22  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.21    one month ago

So you don't have an answer?

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.23  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.21    one month ago

Yep, in 2018 the bottom 50% made about 12% of the AGI but paid only about 3% of the federal income taxes.

The top 1% made about 21% of the AGI but paid roughly 40% of the total income tax collected.

Only a dullard would argue that isn’t very progressive.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.24  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.22    one month ago

Yes, the first Derivative of 2x is 2.

Hope that helps.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.22    one month ago

So I gave you an answer, "Our federal income tax is very progressive."  Progressive in  a tax system means that it taxes higher-income individuals more heavily than lower-income individuals. For example, the top 1 percent of taxpayers earn 20.1 percent of total adjusted gross income, but they pay 38.8 percent of all income taxes.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.26  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.25    one month ago

Except that wasn't the answer to my question.   

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.27  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.24    one month ago

I  never go to you or your pals for help.  

That would be useless.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.28  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.25    one month ago

So you don't like people following you around and asking you useless, childish questions?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.29  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.26    one month ago

Of course it was an answer to your question, what part didn't you understand?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.30  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.28    one month ago

Childish or not, I never mind your questions.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.31  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.29    one month ago

No, it wasn't.  

There you go again . . .  I told you about that talking down to those you deem your inferiors

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.32  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.31    one month ago
There you go again

You sound like Ronald Reagan.  I didn't talk down to you, I used your words.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
12.2.33  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.32    one month ago
I used your words.

Don't do that.  They don't like when they are treated as they treat others.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
12.2.34  Sean Treacy  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.24    one month ago

Math is white supremacy now.  Be careful. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.35  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.27    one month ago

Your loss ....

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.36  Sparty On  replied to  Sean Treacy @12.2.34    one month ago

I can’t, I’m an Engineer ..... 

 
 
 
pat wilson
Professor Guide
12.2.37  pat wilson  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.10    one month ago
Since I owed them money, I guess I don't care how slow they are but very inefficient.    

They're certainly not slow to cash your check, they have that system down.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.38  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  pat wilson @12.2.37    one month ago

Everybody is good at something.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.39  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.32    one month ago
what part didn't you understand?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.40  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.35    one month ago

No, not a loss at all.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.41  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.39    one month ago

I don't understand if you are still confused about the term Progressive Income Tax and what it means to tax payers.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.42  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.40    one month ago

I didn’t stutter....

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.43  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.42    one month ago

What part didn't you understand?  I don't go to you for assistance for anything?  And it's no loss, you provide nothing of value.

What does the I didn't stutter comment supposed to mean?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.44  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @12.2.41    one month ago

I was never confused.  I figured you would figure that out what with you following me around again from post to post while you talk down to me.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.2.45  Tessylo  replied to  Sparty On @12.2.42    one month ago

I never asked for your advice in the first place so go back to the hive there sparty.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
12.2.46  Sparty On  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.45    one month ago

Ouch and here I thought we were besties now since I helped you with your STEM knowledge.

I’m hurt, truly hurt.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
12.2.47  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @12.2.44    one month ago
I figured you would figure that out

How do you figure?

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
13  charger 383    one month ago

My parents paid for 2/3 of my college and I worked summers in a rayon factory and during school at a gas station, cleaning an elementary school and at a truck stop.  I paid all of the last semester and graduated with money in the bank.  Except for driving a Charger and having an old pickup I lived right cheap while going to school, as did most of my friends. 

I know things are more expensive now but lots of college students lived the high life and went to high priced schools on borrowed money and now don't want to pay it back.  

Forgiving their debt is an insult to those who worked, their parents who sacrificed having other things to pay for their kid's education and all those who paid back their student loans. 

And those who did it right will end up paying for this so-called loan forgiveness

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
13.1  Sparty On  replied to  charger 383 @13    one month ago

Preach on brother and .....

My parents paid for 2/3 of my college

lucky bastard jrSmiley_100_smiley_image.jpg

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
13.1.1  Snuffy  replied to  Sparty On @13.1    one month ago
lucky bastard

Me too...   my uncle paid a large part of my college.    Uncle Sam that is...   hehe

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
13.1.2  charger 383  replied to  Sparty On @13.1    one month ago

Thanks, when they were old I took care of them, when I was young they took care of me.   

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
13.1.3  charger 383  replied to  Snuffy @13.1.1    one month ago
"my uncle paid a large part of my college.    Uncle Sam that is...   hehe"
AND, letting this bunch get away without paying what they owe is a greater insult to you than me. 

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
13.1.4  Sparty On  replied to  Snuffy @13.1.1    one month ago

As choice would have it Sam wasn’t my uncle until after college.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  charger 383 @13.1.3    one month ago
"AND, letting this bunch get away without paying what they owe is a greater insult to you than me"

How is that an insult?  To anyone?

Why would you begrudge someone not having a lifetime of debt?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
13.1.6  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.5    one month ago
How is that an insult?  To anyone?

Apparently, the Federal Government depends on receiving both the interest and the principal from our previous students.

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Quiet
13.1.7  charger 383  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.5    one month ago

Because the ones that paid their bill are cheated.  

It is very insulting to see others don't have to pay the money they borrowed back while others did pay it back.

They made their deal, now don't want to pay what is due.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1.8  Tessylo  replied to  charger 383 @13.1.7    one month ago

Cheated?  How?

Insulting?  I guess if you want to see it that way but that doesn't really make sense to me.

Folks should be happy that their children don't have to face a lifetime of debt.  

Not a matter of 'not wanting to pay what is due' if you don't have to pay it back.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @13.1.6    one month ago

How is that an insult?  To anyone?

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
13.1.10  Snuffy  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.5    one month ago
Why would you begrudge someone not having a lifetime of debt?

I don't believe anybody is.  But if someone makes a financial decision should they not hold to the agreement they made?  Why should their bad decision be paid by other people?  If you purchased a car but didn't bother to change the oil and the engine died because of it, would you want the back to forgive the car loan because of your decision?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1.11  Tessylo  replied to  Snuffy @13.1.10    one month ago

If the debt has been absolved, why should they?

Your example is foolish.  It's nonsense actually.  

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
13.1.12  Snuffy  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.11    one month ago
If the debt has been absolved, why should they?

Because even if the individual person has been absolved of the debt, the debt has not gone away.  It's just now being paid by the American Tax Payer.   With the current inflation issues and all other economic issues that are plaguing the country right now why should the tax payer be on the hook for more trillions of dollars of debt because of this?

Your examples really don't equate.  They're nonsense actually.  

The example I used is valid, you are willfully ignoring it.  I can't help you with that but it's a simple issue of a person who made a financial decision should stand by their decision.  

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
Professor Principal
13.1.14  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.8    one month ago
Cheated?  How?

Because the funds for their loans came in part from us repaying ours.  We resent subsidizing them.

Same as you (and I) resent tax cheats - because we're subsidizing cheats.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
13.1.15  Tessylo  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1.14    one month ago

I guess I should know more about the subject before I continue to act like an expert.  

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
13.1.16  Sparty On  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1.14    one month ago

Full agreement, which in turn would just kick the can even further down the road for future generations to pay for.    

Not to mention how it would likely accelerate college costs even faster.

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
14  Kavika     one month ago

No high school diploma, no college degree, debt-free, and now retired living the good life. 

Education can be overrated and way too expensive for the majority of kids unless they take on enormous debt and they will be paying back for decades. 

Education should not be expensive as it is and the cost has far exceeded the rate of inflation. Fix the underlying problem for starters. 

P.S. not every kid belongs in college they are alternatives that can earn them a decent living. 

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
14.1  Freewill  replied to  Kavika @14    one month ago
Education should not be expensive as it is and the cost has far exceeded the rate of inflation. Fix the underlying problem for starters. 

Indeed!  See comment 3.0 above

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
14.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Freewill @14.1    one month ago

See comment 3.0 above

Comment 3.0 was a good one, thanks.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
14.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Kavika @14    one month ago

Correct. I have a friend making just a shade over 6 figures per year as a plumber in a nuclear power plant. No college or degree, but did 10 years in the Navy working on powerplants in engine rooms of nuclear fast attack submarines. He makes a pretty penny courtesy of training by said rich uncle.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
14.3  Sparty On  replied to  Kavika @14    one month ago

Agreed on all points.    
Good post.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
14.4  JBB  replied to  Kavika @14    one month ago

My corporate mentor had spent twenty years as one of the highest ranking non commissioned officers on a famous American nuclear submarine. He could not rise any higher in the military without a degree but his military service was considered equal with a college degree when he first retired from the military circa 1980. It got him into the corporate door. He would not make it today.

No majors in the entire industry we worked for will consider any candidates without degrees now!

HRs explain this by saying they have so many candidates for every single opening, no matter how humble, they have to draw that line in the sand to protect companies from lawsuits. They cannot justify hiring people who are less qualified, on paper, in court if/when sued for discrimination. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
14.4.1  Kavika   replied to  JBB @14.4    one month ago
No majors in the entire industry we worked for will consider any candidates without degrees now!

I'm sure that is correct and with that, they are overlooking people that could be a benefit to the corporation. I started out working the docks, (longshoreman) and made it to the senior management ranks of a Fortune 500 company without one. Sometimes that piece of paper means nothing more than I'm in debt and I showed up for classes. 

Sadly, I think many are left behind or never given the chance because of this view that one must have a college degree. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
14.4.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  JBB @14.4    one month ago
No majors in the entire industry we worked for will consider any candidates without degrees now!

If people carefully read Job Descriptions where it talks about the requirements, many will state X degree OR X number of years experience required.  The position I'm holding required a degree or 8 years experience in logistics.  I didn't have the degree but had over 25 years experience in logistics.  I now work for a billion dollar Logistics company with locations around the world.

People need to realize some things:

  • There are millions of jobs out there that DO NOT require some kind of a degree. 
  • Just because they have a degree, that doesn't make them the better candidate for a position.   
  • Many employers will in one form or another help the experienced employee obtain the degree.
 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
14.4.3  JBB  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @14.4.2    one month ago

Maybe in your industry or line of work but not in the industry I retired from. It used to be that way, but not for the last 20-25 years. Early on I worked with several guys who were let go for not finishing their degrees. Then it became mandatory that all new hires had to have at least a bachelor's degree. Again, in my specific industry this is now standard HR policy. There are less than a dozen competitors in the whole industry worldwide and maybe three of those are considered majors...

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
14.4.4  JBB  replied to  Kavika @14.4.1    one month ago

I agree. Young people entering the workforce today face a different job market than I did. Women and minorities still struggle to get a foot into my particular field which was almost exclusively white and male at least in the US and Europe. It was because of many lawsuits about discrimination that college degrees became required. The companies could not justify hiring less qualified men over women and minorities candidates with much more impressive educational achievements...

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
14.4.5  Kavika   replied to  JBB @14.4.4    one month ago

Being a minority I have some interesting stories that I faced over my career. Some funny some not so funny at all.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Expert
15  Sean Treacy    one month ago

Administrators now outnumber teachers on campus. For starters, cut costs  by  cutting the ratio of administrators to  students to what it was 75 years  

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
16  Drinker of the Wry    one month ago

I taught ROTC for a few years at a small state university.  Many of the students were first generation college.  I watched them borrow tens of thousands of dollars to become shoe salesmen at the mall or insurance adjusters.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
16.1  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @16    one month ago

Worse off are the extremely poor people saddled with debts from private remedial training schools who never had a chance of professional type jobs.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
16.1.1  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @16.1    one month ago

Agree, they are in a bad place.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
16.1.2  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @16.1.1    one month ago

It is hard to imagine a four year RN degree resulting in over a hundred thousand in student loans but nursing is high demand, good pay and extra hours are available. What is a vocal performance degree worth for an only moderately talented singer? Good luck collecting on half the degrees offered today.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
16.1.3  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @16.1.2    one month ago
What is a vocal performance degree worth for an only moderately talented singer?

Minimum wage and a free dinner after the Dinner Theatre performance?

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
16.1.4  JBB  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @16.1.3    one month ago

I once hosted The Dallas Ballet to a buffet dinner after a performance of the Nutcracker. You would not believe how much food tiny ballerinas can eat. Then they threw everything up before coming back for seconds! 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Expert
16.1.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @16.1.4    one month ago

LoL, thanks.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
16.2  Sparty On  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @16    one month ago

Colleges sold them a bill of goods.    Society really I guess  ..... not everyone is meant to, or needs to go to college.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
16.2.1  Snuffy  replied to  Sparty On @16.2    one month ago

Yes but that was the standard line going back to the 70's.   "You must go to college to be successful".   That was the standard line and so many people bought into it.  The other side of that line was to be sure to train for a job that  you will enjoy.  I know several people who took classes and got degrees in what they enjoyed, just so they could go be a minimum wage clerk somewhere.  How many archaeologists graduated, gleefully took their sheepskin and then discovered that very few actually get hired for dig sites...   The best analogy I can think of is for someone to want to be a writer.  I know several writers, and the majority of them have to work second jobs as they never make enough to live on.  For every Steven King there are thousands who make less then $10K annually from writing.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
16.2.2  Sparty On  replied to  Snuffy @16.2.1    one month ago
Yes but that was the standard line going back to the 70's.   "You must go to college to be successful". 

It’s much worse today.   I came up in the trades and “chose” to go to college.   And I hated school.    Nothing wrong with the trades though.     I just wanted something different.    

Incidentally I would have retired about ten years earlier had I stayed in the trades.

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
16.2.3  Snuffy  replied to  Sparty On @16.2.2    one month ago

I was very fortunate.  In my freshman year of high school we had a 1 year course in computer programming where we had timeshare on a state college mainframe.  It was great and that's where I knew I wanted to get into IT.  So I planned my entire high school time around that, taking math and science courses to prepare.  At graduation I knew I wasn't ready to go to college right then and there so I joined the military to spend four years "growing up" and once done started my college after getting out.  And I've been in IT for all these years and loving it, so I guess I am an exception to that as I did get into a job that I would enjoy.  I'm finally retiring next month but it's been a great 42 years.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
16.2.4  Sparty On  replied to  Snuffy @16.2.3    one month ago

Congrats, we are retiring at about the same time.     Seeing your years of service we are likely fellow  “punch card” warriors.

Debuggers unite!

 
 
 
Snuffy
Senior Guide
16.2.5  Snuffy  replied to  Sparty On @16.2.4    one month ago
 “punch card” warriors.

LOL...   oh how I remember them.   In college I would watch the really stupid people who wouldn't number their card decks because those extra key strokes were too much effort.  Until they dropped their deck and had to spend hours putting it back into order or just give up and type out a new deck...   

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Participates
17  Freewill    one month ago

Interesting notice from the loan servicer on the Federal Parent Plus Loan we had for our daughter who graduated a couple years ago.

Great news! Your federal loans may be eligible for the limited PSLF waiver!

The Department of Education (ED) announced a temporary change to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program rules under the limited PSLF waiver.  The limited PSLF waiver will allow eligible borrowers to receive credit for past periods of repayment after October 1, 2007, whether they made a payment, made that payment on time, for the full amount due, or on a qualifying repayment plan.   If you are employed full-time by a U.S. federal, state, local, or tribal government, or not-for-profit organization, you may be eligible to receive forgiveness under the limited PSLF waiver! You can use the  PSLF Help Tool  to enter your employer’s Federal Employer Identification Number (EIN) from your IRS form W-2 to view your employer’s eligibility.

FFELP Loan borrowers:  Please note that in order for your FFELP Loans to be eligible for PSLF and to maximize your benefits for the limited PSLF waiver, you must apply for a  Direct Loan Consolidation  and submit a  PSLF Form  by October 31, 2022!

Parent PLUS Loan borrowers: Please note that Parent PLUS loans are not  directly  eligible for consideration under the limited PSLF waiver. Payments made on Parent PLUS Loans are not eligible for credit under the limited PSLF wavier, even if you consolidate them into a new Direct Consolidation Loan by October 31, 2022.  However , if you consolidate (or previously consolidated) a Parent PLUS Loan, the consolidation loan may be eligible for credit towards PSLF. For more information about consideration of Parent PLUS Loans under the limited PSLF waiver, visit the  Q & A section at StudentAid.gov/PSLFwaiver . This is explained under “What types of loans can I get credit for?”

We have already paid off my daughter's Parent Plus Loan, but she still has Federal unsubsidized Direct Stafford loans she will need to pay off.  Those are still in Covid forbearance until August now, but she has a good job, making good money and is planning to pay those off in short order to avoid as much interest as possible.  She understands that she got a good education and that we as a family made the decision to fund said education using the federal loans, and that it is our burden/responsibility alone to pay those back, not anyone else's.  I'm not sure why one's choice of employer should make any difference.

 
 

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