Trump sued by New York attorney general for fraud

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  tessylo  •  6 days ago  •  156 comments

By:   Jonathan Stempel, Karen Freifeld and Luc Cohen in New York, Reuters

Trump sued by New York attorney general for fraud

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Trump sued by New York attorney general for fraud









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FILE PHOTO: Former U.S. President Trump holds a rally in Ohio








Wed, September 21, 2022 at 11:33 AM





NEW YORK (Reuters) - Donald Trump was sued for fraud on Wednesday by New York state's attorney general, who for more than three years has been conducting a civil investigation into the former U.S. president's business practices, court records showed.




A copy of the complaint was not immediately available. The lawsuit was filed in a New York state court in Manhattan.

The investigation by Attorney General Letitia James has focused on whether the Trump Organization misstated the values of its real estate properties to obtain favorable loans and tax benefits.

James was expected to make an announcement at 11:30 a.m. EDT (1530 GMT). She has said that the investigation uncovered "significant evidence" that Trump and the company fraudulently valued many of its assets.




The Republican former president has denied any wrongdoing and described James' probe as a politically motivated witch hunt. James is a Democrat. The Trump Organization has called James' allegations "baseless."

(Reporting by Jonathan Stempel, Karen Freifeld and Luc Cohen in New York; Editing by Will Dunham)









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Tessylo
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Tessylo    6 days ago

The hits just keep coming!

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @1    5 days ago

it should be fun watching which one of trump's defective spawn rolls over on him first.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
2  Hallux    6 days ago

When karma turns on you it becomes a giant octopus ... and so begins the big squeeze. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3  Vic Eldred    6 days ago

DqsNaRmXcAsmmXc?format=jpg&name=small

Trump .Org


 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
3.1  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    6 days ago

[removed]

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
3.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    6 days ago

Well, that is Trumps version, what are your thoughts Vic ?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.1  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.2    6 days ago

[removed]

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.2.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.2    6 days ago

That's a $250 Million lawsuit.  I want jail time.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
3.2.3  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.2    6 days ago
I want jail time

State jails are not Fed day camps.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
3.2.4  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.2    6 days ago
I want jail time.

Who do want as a cell mate then ?

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
3.2.5  Hallux  replied to  igknorantzrulz @3.2.4    6 days ago

Is Harvey still in Akron?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
3.2.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.2    6 days ago
That's a $250 Million lawsuit.  I want jail time.

Yes, Trump should pay $250 million, not pass go, and go directly to jail.

The Trump statement is chock full of fantasy and lies. The statute of limitations has not passed in this civil case, they clearly have merit, and any Democrat caught doing this kind of thing would be skewered by Republicans as a lying cheating thief. And as to the claims of this being politically timed, the pampered pompous pussy grabber isn't on the ballot this November so a civil lawsuit into his business is not just a political stunt to damage anyone's campaign.

We've all known Trump is a slimy, misogynistic, lying sack of human feces for years now, none of his business fraud is a surprise. The only mystery is how die hard MAGA Trump suckers are able to continue swallowing his load of bullshit and continue defending him day in and day out without their heads exploding from the shame, insanity and hypocrisy it takes to do so.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
3.2.7  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.6    6 days ago

The only mystery is how die hard MAGA Trump suckers are able to continue swallowing his load of bullshit and continue defending him day in and day out without their heads exploding from the shame, insanity and hypocrisy it takes to do so.

At first i thought, due to a protein deficiency, then, thinking in Trump terms, due to a Pro Teen deficiency...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.8  JohnRussell  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.6    6 days ago

Its just astounding how many of our fellow citizens are more than happy to have our country represented by a scumbag like Trump. It kind of destroys your faith in humanity. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
3.2.9  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.8    6 days ago

what faith ...

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
3.2.10  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @3.2.8    6 days ago

Not as much as the current individual residing in the White House has destroyed mine and others faith. The knife cuts both ways John.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.2.11  Vic Eldred  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.6    6 days ago

You all knew?

Six years of countless investigations and somebody who campaigned on getting him for something is down to him overestimating the worth of Mar-A-Lago.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.2.12  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.11    6 days ago

Donald Trump has been a tax cheat and unethical businessman his entire life. You have your head buried in the sand. But that is not breaking news, is it? 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.13  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @3.2.10    6 days ago

Oh please!

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.14  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.11    6 days ago

Yeah, that's what it all boils down to!

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.15  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.2    6 days ago

You might want to have a word with George regarding referrals to the IRS and the DoJ:

George @11 ☞ will one of the non-morons explain to the fools that you can’t be found guilty of a civil suit and sent to jail.

 
 
 
George
Freshman Silent
3.2.16  George  replied to  TᵢG @3.2.15    6 days ago

Nice passive aggressive comments. List the charges or fuck off!

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.2.17  TᵢG  replied to  George @3.2.16    6 days ago
Nice passive aggressive comments. List the charges or fuck off!

Writes the guy who penned a sweeping personal attack @11 .

Why would you ask me to list the charges?   What position do you think I hold that requires I list charges?

Here is a link to the filing; do your own research. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.2.18  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @3.2.2    6 days ago

305193650_6082390355105918_6572052507563102475_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s600x600&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7PZRm6LFzC8AX-hwOMW&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_l0sFrtXFwFXIYLK64i4SloUuj7GVkznXBQkpDvYIGpg&oe=6330D3A0

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.2.19  devangelical  replied to  Tessylo @3.2.18    5 days ago

they'll be calling him orange julius when his kids flip on him to save their own asses.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
3.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    6 days ago

I love this from the article:

The Republican former president has denied any wrongdoing and described James' probe as a politically motivated witch hunt. James is a Democrat.

The way this is worded, falls right in with it being politically motivated.  Democrats claiming he's a criminal THEN trying to back it up.  I have a feeling this will end just like the other "investigations".  Big goose egg.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
3.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    6 days ago

I remember reading back in 2015 or 2016, before Trump was even assured the nomination, that his Trump.org had a practice of overvaluing their properties for the purpose of getting loans and undervaluing the worth on his tax forms. 

He is guilty as hell, this has been known for a long time, and it is just a matter of the judicial system having the courage to hold him to account. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3.4.1  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @3.4    6 days ago
He is guilty as hell, this has been known for a long time, and it is just a matter of the judicial system having the courage to hold him to account. 

Just like the Clintons. Oh wait they are still walking free aren't they?

Trump has been investigated more than the Clintons and Democrats still can't get anything stick. Trump doesn't even have the benefit of a Establish hack like Comey to make charges disappear when there is ample evidence of breaking the law.

But this time they have Trump for sure! Or maybe next time. Or the next. Oh to hell with it just indict him; and then convict him! He is guilty of something!

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
3.4.2  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @3.4.1    6 days ago

Oh for fucks sake, you have CDS BIG TIME

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
3.5  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @3    6 days ago

Do you believe that these charges are meritless?    That is, do you reject the possibility that Trump might indeed have committed these illegal acts?

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
3.5.1  devangelical  replied to  TᵢG @3.5    5 days ago

... with over 200 pages of fraud documentation by the NY/AG, I'm sure he does.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
3.5.2  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @3.5.1    4 days ago

Then why isn't she filing criminal charges instead of just suing him?

Don't tell us Democrats wouldn't love to see Trump in prison along with his offspring.

She is using the same damn evidence a NY DA refused to prosecute Trump with.  Anyone can manufacture paperwork. The federal government is legendary for it. Lawyers are just behind them.

She lost all credibility when she campaigned for her job on "getting Trump!".

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
PhD Principal
4  Just Jim NC TttH    6 days ago

I STILL don't understand how banks, insurance companies, and the state and local govco don't have appraisers and take the owner or perspective owner's word for shit. That certainly wasn't now nor never has been when I purchased a home. And this is large scale stuff

Seems self inflicted pain to me. Perhaps she should sue all of them for negligence..............well more like stupidity.

 
 
 
Hallux
Junior Principal
4.1  Hallux  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4    6 days ago
And this is large scale stuff

Indeed but you as with I my friend are small scale stuff without the wherewithal to offer up the goodies that would act as a balm to any future 'wrist slaps'.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
4.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4    6 days ago
banks, insurance companies, and the state and local govco don't have appraisers and take the owner or perspective owner's word for shit.

Brings into question about their claims that they misstated the values of its real estate properties.  If it's not appraised how can they make the accusation?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
4.2.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2    6 days ago
If it's not appraised how can they make the accusation?

Don't you think they might have done some appraising to be able to even suggest there was value manipulation ?

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.2.2  gooseisback  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2    6 days ago
banks, insurance companies, and the state and local govco

Let's look at this a different way, did he default on any of the Bank loans, if not where is the crime? Did he file a fraudulent insurance claim, if not there is no insurance fraud? That leaves the state and local governments that have their own appraisers, did he not pay his taxes? Seems Letta James is a borderline idiot, that feels how someone values their property on loan application, the appraised value, the assessed value and the insurance value should all be the same.    

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
4.2.3  JohnRussell  replied to  gooseisback @4.2.2    6 days ago

Do you think you know Letitia James' job, or the evidence, better than she does? 

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.2.4  gooseisback  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.3    6 days ago
Do you think you know Letitia James' job, or the evidence, better than she does? 

Yes, definitely the insurance.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
4.2.5  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.2.1    6 days ago

Then it should have been caught a decade ago.  Looking at this, is could be said that the appraisals weren't done by the city / state / lenders / insurance / or tax collectors and this is, in fact, politically driven.  

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
4.2.6  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.5    6 days ago

It was unearthed by Michael Cohens' testimony that Trumps' enterprises used this method to secure better lending rates, and then, pay less in taxes. Seems Cohen was not lying, as she has found a lot of evidence to back up his claims. The chief financial officer has already been found guilty in a court of law, and , somehow i doubt you are surprised Trump would use unscrupulous means or methods to enrich himself.... 

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.2.7  gooseisback  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.2.6    6 days ago
secure better lending rates, and then, pay less in taxes

That makes no sense, to achieve a better lending rate the risk needs to be low, which means the values are high. If the values are high, you pay more tax. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
4.2.8  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.2.6    6 days ago

Michael Cohen.  Seriously?  I guess you weren't paying attention when he was trying to make a name for himself but ended up in prison. You are going to have to do better than that.  Especially when you educate yourself on how lending, taxes and appraisals work.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
4.2.9  igknorantzrulz  replied to  gooseisback @4.2.7    6 days ago
That makes no sense, to achieve a better lending rate the risk needs to be low, which means the values are high. If the values are high, you pay more tax

Trump elevated his worth IMMENSLY to get better loan deals, then DEVALUED the worth of his properties when the taxes needed paid. i'm not positive of this number but believe i heard her say his Mar La go property was valued at $750,000,000.00 when in actuality it was $75,000,000.00. It will all be out there shortly

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
4.2.10  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4.2.8    6 days ago
Michael Cohen.  Seriously? 

yea YAHOO SERIOUSLY !  The guy was Trumps "fixer" and attorney for many years and knows the inner workings of the Trump Crime Family better than most. He was Trumps attorney, that like MANY of Trumps' attorneys , was disbarred and wound up in jail on the same charges that had Trump not been potUS, would have ALSO been sentenced to jail, because spending $130,000 a pop to put little hands on Playgirls and pornstars sure sounds like Trump knows the proper way to handle election "ASSETS" No ?The Art of the Deal, for bias to Buy Ass ? But i digress, just like Cohen, many more of Trumps attorneys are facing jail and or disbarment due to TRUMPS LIES ! So yes Jeremy, in answer to your question SERIOUSLY ! 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.2.11  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.2.10    6 days ago

trumpturd crime family is right and the chickens are FINALLY coming home to roost

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
4.2.12  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @4.2.3    6 days ago

What evidence? Whenever he is arrested, tried, found guilty, and convicted do let us know please. 

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
4.2.13  gooseisback  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.2.9    6 days ago
Trump elevated his worth IMMENSLY to get better loan deals,

What Trump puts on a loan application is up to the lending institution to verify.  An almost $700 million difference seems a bit obvious, you also have to take into account how they are valuing the property as a structure or as an income producing property.  The more important question did he default on these "better loan deals"?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.14  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @4.2.7    6 days ago

Evaluate net worth high for loans and deliver a different evaluation for taxes.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.2.15  Ronin2  replied to  TᵢG @4.2.14    4 days ago

You mean the same damn thing that all businesses do?

Again the banks have their own appraisers; and the city/state/fed have their own appraisers. The banks aren't complaining or suing Trump. So maybe the government needs to hire better appraisers? Nah, that can't be the problem.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.2.16  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @4.2.15    4 days ago
You mean the same damn thing that all businesses do?

The plaintiff no doubt will illustrate how this practice was taken to the extreme.   They have alleged fraud so that is what they must illustrate.   If Trump's practices were within the norm they would be stupid to bring this case.   I strongly suspect they indeed have a case.

Do you, assuming you know anything about Trump, think Trump's business practices are likely in the norm and that he is being mistreated?

 
 
 
Diablo Imperius
Professor Guide
4.3  Diablo Imperius  replied to  Just Jim NC TttH @4    4 days ago

I've done several billions of real estate transactions and property tax valuations.  No private (including NY Banks) or public entity (CA) has ever blindly accepted my valuations.  I'd laugh my ass off if that was how the system worked in NY, the presumably financially sophisticated capital of the world.

 
 
 
Just Jim NC TttH
PhD Principal
4.3.1  Just Jim NC TttH  replied to  Diablo Imperius @4.3    4 days ago

Exactly.............

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
4.3.2  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Diablo Imperius @4.3    4 days ago
No private (including NY Banks) or public entity (CA) has ever blindly accepted my valuations.

And somehow we are expected to believe that is exactly what happened.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.3.3  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Diablo Imperius @4.3    4 days ago

"I've done several billions of real estate transactions and property tax valuations."

Yeah, and I'm the Queen of Sheba

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.3.4  TᵢG  replied to  Diablo Imperius @4.3    4 days ago

So, by your reasoning, ...

  1. the lenders, insurance companies, etc. all turned a blind eye to what Trump presented and did business with him anyway
  2. Trump successfully fooled the auditors of all these companies (alternate books)
  3. Trump's books were accurate (within acceptable norms).

Which of these (or add another option) do you think is reality?


Number 3 seems to be a stretch:

The longtime accountants for former President Donald Trump and the Trump Organization have quit. The accounting firm Mazars USA says it can no longer stand behind a decade's worth of financial statements that it prepared and signed . The decision could have a major impact on hundreds of millions of dollars in bank loans. And the withdrawal of support from Mazars USA comes at a precarious moment for the Trump family business.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.3.5  TᵢG  replied to  Tessylo @4.3.3    4 days ago

Oliver Closoff was ostensibly a CFO of, I believe, a real estate related company.  It is certainly possible for the aggregate value of properties involved in many transactions over years to exceed $2 billion.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
4.3.6  igknorantzrulz  replied to  TᵢG @4.3.5    4 days ago
Oliver Closoff

how do i know that name ?  was he the pompous putz on NV with the stupid avatar that reminded me of The Judges nephew from Caddyshack. B 4 i vent further, probably best to see if i am thinking of same person

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
4.3.7  TᵢG  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.3.6    4 days ago

Yes, but this is not the venue for venting about OC of NV.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
4.3.8  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  TᵢG @4.3.5    yesterday

"Oliver Closoff was ostensibly a CFO of, I believe, a real estate related company.  It is certainly possible for the aggregate value of properties involved in many transactions over years to exceed $2 billion."

I really don't care - just don't trust anything they say.  

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
5  gooseisback    6 days ago

Why would she sue him for fraud, when she hasn't convicted him of fraud?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
5.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  gooseisback @5    6 days ago

Possibly because Trump's Cumps have defrauded on taxes they rightfully owed, and i believe $250 million was only the starting price

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
5.1.1  gooseisback  replied to  igknorantzrulz @5.1    6 days ago
defrauded on taxes they rightfully owed,

Where is the guilty verdict?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  gooseisback @5.1.1    6 days ago

Trump must love you.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
5.1.3  gooseisback  replied to  JohnRussell @5.1.2    6 days ago
Trump must love you.

Just like you love Lightfoot and Pritzker.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
5.2  Tacos!  replied to  gooseisback @5    6 days ago

Maybe because the standard of proof is lower. Technically, courts don’t actually put numbers to these things, but Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” is like 90%+ sure of guilt. “Preponderance of the Evidence” is basically 50% + 1.

Also, the rules of evidence are different. For example, they can depose Trump (though I expect him to plead the 5th) and all sorts of records can be subpoenaed.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
5.2.1  gooseisback  replied to  Tacos! @5.2    6 days ago
the rules of evidence are different

That may be true, but what is the outcome a fine or a guilty verdict. 

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
5.2.2  TᵢG  replied to  gooseisback @5.2.1    6 days ago

The court will find for the defendant or the plaintiff.   If the finding is for the plaintiff, damages are awarded.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
6  JohnRussell    6 days ago

I'm shocked ! Shocked I tell you !

lol

Trump has been a criminal and con man and tax cheat all his adult life.  Then on the other hand he "owned the libs" so the political right forgave him his Mt Everest of unethical business dealings and pathological lying. America will never live this down. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
6.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JohnRussell @6    6 days ago
Trump has been a criminal and con man and tax cheat all his adult life.

DWvOMURU0AAzGk5.jpg

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
7  gooseisback    6 days ago
tax cheat all his adult life.

Please list his convictions for tax fraud. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1  JohnRussell  replied to  gooseisback @7    6 days ago

White collar crime is woefully under prosecuted in the United States, probably because our culture has a love affair with con men, and cheating. Steal a couple loaves of bread and you might end up in jail. Steal millions and your'e a folk hero or financial wizard. . 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1    6 days ago

Trump-Tax-Fraud-Timeline-Infographic1.jpg

www.ais-cpa.com /tax-fraud-by-the-numbers-the-trump-timeline/

Tax Fraud By The Numbers: The Trump Timeline [UPDATED 2022]

Kenneth W. Boyd 17-22 minutes   11/20/2018


Tax-Fraud-By-The-Numbers-300x267.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Tax-Fraud-By-The-Numbers-150x134.jpg 150w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" > It’s no secret that tax law in the United States is extremely confusing. Even the length of the official tax code is subject to wild speculation; people estimate it to be somewhere between 2,500 pages and four times the length of the complete written works of Shakespeare.

As a result of this confusion, many people are intimidated by this substantial piece of American legislation. It’s because of this wariness around taxes and tax law that accounting has become such a  lucrative profession , and it’s why the word “audit” strikes fear into the hearts of business owners and  freelancers .

But what if we could make tax law less confusing? What if it’s possible to break down the thousands of pages and hundreds of sections into something easier for ordinary people to understand?


Trump-Vector-Art-284x300.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Trump-Vector-Art-142x150.jpg 142w, 500w" sizes="(max-width: 284px) 100vw, 284px" > In order to better understand the intricacies of tax law, we should start by examining the concept of tax fraud. After all, by understanding what constitutes a violation of the law, we can obtain a better understanding of the law itself.

And what better place to start than with the President of the United States?

Donald Trump has a long and fascinating history as a business mogul before becoming elected President in 2016. In that time, he has made big waves in real estate and entrepreneurship and has been accused of multiple fraudulent activities in the process. Many of these accusations have been catalogued in a  massive exposé published by the New York Times .

Whether or not these accusations are legitimate is up to the courts to decide.  This is in no way an indictment or direct attack on the president;  all we are attempting to do with these events is construct an educational case study. By analyzing these scenarios, we should be able to establish a working knowledge of tax fraud and, by extension, tax law itself.

So read on to learn about Donald Trump’s tax fraud allegations over the course of 25 years and what they can teach us about the United States tax code!


Trump’s Tax Fraud Timeline

Trump-Tax-Fraud-Timeline-Infographic1.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Trump-Tax-Fraud-Timeline-Infographic1-120x300.jpg 120w, 409w, 768w, 60w, 614w, 819w" sizes="(max-width: 625px) 100vw, 625px" >


Gift Tax Fraud

Although the accusations of fraud leveled at Donald Trump cover several different areas of tax law, one thing nearly all of them have in common is that they involve circumventing gift taxes.

But why is this the case?

For people who aren’t billionaires, gift tax isn’t a major issue. Any exchange of money or property from one individual to another without expecting anything of 

Gift-Tax-Fraud-300x188.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Gift-Tax-Fraud-768x480.jpg 768w, 150w, 800w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" >

equivalent value in return would qualify as a taxable gift  in the eyes of the IRS . However, this tax doesn’t need to be paid if the value of these gifts are lower than the annual or lifetime exclusion.  As of 2018 , the annual exclusion is $15,000 and the lifetime exclusion is $11.8 million.

Here’s an example of how the gift tax works:

If you wanted to give someone in your family a used Toyota Corolla that was worth about $5,000, you wouldn’t have to pay gift taxes on it. But if you wanted to gift someone a brand-new Tesla Model 3 with a base price of $35,000, you would have to pay gift taxes since it’s worth more than the annual exclusion rate.

At least, you would have to pay taxes on that Tesla if you had already given them $11.8 million over the course of your lifetime. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it works to illustrate our point!

In the case of Donald Trump, the amounts of money and property being given far exceed these exclusions. And because of this, all gifts that he received would be taxed to the tune of 55%.

So how did he (allegedly) get around this steep tax? In a number of ways: many of them accomplished with the help of his father Fred Trump, according to the New York Times.

As the Times tells it, Donald took out several “loans” from his father Fred in order to support some of his struggling business ventures. A document cataloguing some of these loans place the total at nearly  $5 million in 1979 alone . These loans were open-ended, meaning that there was no set payment schedule. The implication of this is that there was no real pressure or even  expectation  to pay back these loans.

And this is how Trump’s father gave him a gift   of about $5 million dollars without having to give the IRS 55%.

Allegedly!


Securities Fraud

Securities-Fraud-300x200.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Securities-Fraud-768x512.jpg 768w, 150w, 800w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" > So how did Donald Trump get out of paying back the loans he made to his father? Even though these substantial cash injections into his businesses were essentially gifts from a father to his son, there needed to be some attempt at paying them back in order to avoid the 55% tax bill. And because Trump (allegedly) needed this money to simply keep many of his struggling businesses afloat, there was no way he could actually pay them back in full.

The solution in this case would be to work out a situation where the loans have been paid off without losing any actual money or  equity : which is exactly what the New York Times claimed Trump did in the early 90’s by committing securities fraud.

But before we get into the specifics, let’s quickly go over what securities fraud is:

Securities fraud is any kind of fraudulent activity that involves stocks or investments.  T his form of tax fraud can be committed in a variety of forms, but mostly involves misrepresenting information investors use to make decisions. Some recent high-profile examples of securities fraud include the  Enron scandal  in 2001 and  Bernie Madoff’s  long-running Ponzi scheme that was thwarted in 2008.

Securities fraud isn’t always tax fraud, but it becomes tax fraud when it is committed in order to circumvent paying taxes. And this is the context of the allegations leveled against Trump.

Here’s what happened according to the Times:

By 1989, Donald Trump owed his father about $11 million and it was coming up on time to collect. If the loan was simply forgiven, it would turn into taxable income; instead, Donald paid it back through a 7.5% stake in one of his Manhattan condominiums. This means that both Donald and his father Fred agreed that 7.5% of his property, obtained through stocks, had a value of $11 million.

However, Fred Trump sold this 7.5% stock back to his son just two years later for only $10,000, spread out over multiple transactions.  One documented example  from 1991 provided by the Times listed a net loss of almost $1 million for just one of these transactions! Nothing drastic happened to  New York City real estate  prices in order to justify this price difference, so it appears as though the agreed-upon 7.5% was now only worth a fraction of its original value.

In this way, Donald Trump and his father were able to turn a debt of $11,000,000 into only $10,000, paid tax-free, all by grossly overvaluing and then undervaluing the stock value of his property.

Allegedly!


Loans Fraud

Loan-Fraud-300x199.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Loan-Fraud-150x100.jpg 150w, 425w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" >

Based on the evidence, it seems that Trump has been receiving quite a bit of help from his father in a way that isn’t supposed to attract a lot of attention from the IRS. However, an incident of loan fraud in 1990 seems to be an exception to father and son’s standard operating procedure, at least according to  documented evidence provided by the Washington Post.

As the story goes, a man named Howard Snyder acting as Fred Trump’s attorney visited Trump Castle, one of Donald Trump’s casinos in Atlantic City. He then purchased $ 3.5 million worth of casino chips. Then he leaves without playing a single game.

You might be wondering: if Donald Trump is already receiving gifts from his father disguised as loans, why would he then take out loans from his father poorly disguised as legitimate business transactions?

Part of the reason for this extra layer of deception seemed to be so that Trump could receive this money faster than if conducted through ordinary loan channels. The reason why this particular loan was so time-sensitive,  according to the New York Times , is that he needed it in order to make a bond payment of about $18.4 million. And because of that loan, even in spite of the fact that this obvious act of fraud was caught and punished by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission, Trump was able to make that payment.

Another reason for this fraudulent act could easily be explained by the way it reduced the fees he had to pay the government in exchange for such a substantial wealth transfer. As we’ve learned, receiving $ 3.5 million as a gift would require paying an extremely high percentage in gift taxes. However, a loan also requires high fees due to the need for an interest rate.

One of the ways that the IRS differentiates a loan from a gift or taxable income is through the addition of an  Applicable Federal Rate (AFR) . These rates are updated every year since they reflect the average percentage of interest charged on all loans made by banks and other financial institutions in the country. Consequently, a loan is only considered a loan in the eyes of the IRS when it applies interest in line with the AFR. And in  December of 1991 , the AFR for a short-term monthly loan was 5.49%.

Here’s a quick multiple-choice question. If you are required to give up a portion of $ 3.5 million dollars, which amount would you rather pay:

    1. 55%, or $1.9 million
    1. 5.5%, or $175,000
  1. 1.8%, or $65,000

Donald Trump picked option C. When the New Jersey Casino Control Commission charged him with fraud, they fined him $65,000, which is slightly less than 2% of the money he received. And that’s how he was able to receive a loan, tax and interest-free, in time to save his casino from foreclosure.

Allegedly!


Appraisal and Estate Tax Fraud

Tax-Fraud-300x282.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Tax-Fraud-768x722.jpg 768w, 150w, 800w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" >

Before we go any further, it’s important to define some terms:

Let’s start with estate tax. This is more or less the same thing as gift tax and is closely tied with inheritance tax. All three of these concepts are closely interlinked to the point where many individuals mistake them for each other; they will refer to inheritance tax as estate tax and vice versa.

So what’s the difference between these three concepts? Here’s a brief rundown of their definitions:

    • Gift tax  is applied when explicitly giving a gift to another person or party. It is  paid by the giver , but it can be  collected from the receiver  if the giver fails to pay. It is a  federal tax , which means that gifts given anywhere in the country can be subject to them.
    • Estate tax  is applied when determining the value of a deceased person’s property. It is  paid   by the estate  before bequeathment, meaning that the taxes are taken out of this value before it is passed on to the receiver. There is a  federal estate tax  with its own exclusion rate and a  state estate tax  that varies depending on the state.
  • Inheritance tax  is applied when passing a deceased person’s property onto their beneficiaries as outlined in their will. It is  paid by the receiver , meaning that the taxes are charged to the person receiving the money or property. This is a  state tax  that only applies to Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Nebraska, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

Still confused? Here’s a table that sums up the differences:

Tax Name Gift Tax Estate Tax Inheritance Tax
Who Pays? Giver Giver Receiver
Federal or State? Both Both State

Now that we’ve defined those terms, we can talk about appraisal fraud. This is when an individual or organization either inflates or deflates the value of a property dishonestly. The reasons for doing so can vary; however, the most often reason for committing this form of fraud is to manipulate mortgage rates, which is why it is also sometimes referred to as mortgage fraud.  The FBI has stated  that this particular form of fraud was a major contributing factor to the 2008 housing crisis.

So what does estate tax and appraisal fraud have to do with Donald Trump?

It’s important to note at this point that Donald Trump is not an only child. Although it sounds like he received quite a bit of special treatment from his father Fred, the truth is that his siblings also allegedly received substantial gifts and properties as well.

And in 1981, one of Donald’s siblings, Fred Trump Jr.,  passed away due to complications from alcoholism.  This meant that all of his assets would be passed on to his surviving family members according to his will, which would be handled by his estate.

The individuals who were in charge of his estate, by the way, were Donald and Fred Sr.

This is the first instance reported by the New York Times in which Donald Trump participated in appraisal fraud in order to avoid paying estate taxes. Although the Times states that the inherited properties would have been worth over $90 million,  a document they obtained  shows that the estate (Donald and Fred Sr.) claimed they were only worth slightly over $13 million.

As a result of this, Fred Trump Jr.’s estate only had to pay $700,000 in estate taxes. If they had declared these properties on their estate tax return at their full value, they would have had to pay nearly $60 million according to  estate tax rates and exclusions  in that year.

The next instance in which the Times claims that Donald Trump committed appraisal fraud to pay less in estate taxes occurred in 1997 when his father passed away. According to  another document provided by the publication , Fred Trump’s estate was said to have a total value of around $41 million. However, they then state that Donald was able to sell his share of the estate for $177.3 million in 2004.

Think about those numbers for a minute. How was Donald Trump able to turn  a portion of $41 million  into  $177.3 million  in just 7 years? As the Times tells it, he was able to do this by handling his late father’s estate the same was as he did his late brother’s: fraudulently.

Allegedly!


Expense Reports Fraud

Expense-Ratio-Fraud-300x211.jpghttps://www.ais-cpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Expense-Ratio-Fraud-768x540.jpg 768w, 150w, 800w" sizes="(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px" >

As the story goes, Fred Trump Jr.’s passing was a tragic surprise that couldn’t have been planned for in any way. However, the passing of Fred Trump Sr. was of natural causes, meaning there was plenty of time to prepare for the handling of his estate. Because of this, the New York Times claims that steps were taken ahead of time to siphon as much wealth from Fred Sr. to his children before his death in order to further minimize the size of his estate taxes.

One of the ways that this was accomplished was through a company named All County Building Supply and Maintenance, according to the Times. This company was hired by Fred Trump, owned by his children, and used to give them money through expense reports fraud.

But what is expense reports fraud?

This is a form of financial fraud that is well-known and fiercely opposed by many forensics accountants and anti-fraud organizations. Also known as expense schemes, this is when a business or one of its employees lies about their expenses.

Let’s go over the difference between an honest business expense and a fraudulent one. In the first scenario, an employee takes a client out to dinner in order to discuss business. In this case, the employee can claim the cost of dinner as a legitimate business expense. But if the employee takes someone who isn’t a client out to dinner as a date and then claims it as a business expense, they are committing expense report fraud.

Expense reports fraud can take many forms,  according to the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners , such as when “an employee overstates the cost of actual expenses and seeks reimbursement.” And this is the type of fraud that the Times claims the Trumps engaged in with the aid of All County Building Supply and Maintenance.

An annotated document  contained in their article breaks down how a purchase of 60 boilers for Fred Trump’s properties, conducted through All County Building Supply, was marked up by 20%. This extra 20% was pure profit, paid out to the owners of the building supply company. With enough business transactions conducted in this way, substantial amounts of money can be legally fed from Fred to his children without having to pay gift taxes.

And that’s how Donald Trump and his siblings were able to drain their father’s accounts before his death while paying the bare minimum taxes possible.

Allegedly!

For more information regarding different types of tax fraud, read the next article in this series titled   Tax Avoidance By The Numbers: The Paradise Papers .


Conclusion

Let’s go over the different types of fraud discussed in this article: those that have been allegedly committed by the 45th President of the United States according to the Times’ exposé:

  • Gift tax fraud,   where IRS fees on gifts are avoided by disguising them as loans or legitimate business transactions.
  • Securities fraud ,   where the value of stocks and investments are misrepresented in order to deceive investors or the IRS.
    • Loans fraud ,   where a loan is disguised as a different transaction in order to avoid involving a financial institution and setting fair interest rates.
  • Appraisal fraud ,   where the value of a property is misrepresented in order to manipulate mortgage rates or deceive the IRS.
  • Estate tax fraud ,   where the value of an individual’s estate is misrepresented in order to avoid paying a high percentage to the IRS.
  • Expense reports fraud ,   where business expenses are misrepresented in order to deceive a business or the IRS.

Not all of these fraudulent activities are specifically tax fraud, but they can all be used for the purpose of committing tax fraud. This is because they involve misrepresenting the value or existence of properties and expenses in order to deceive individuals, businesses,  accountants , and tax auditors.

So what does this teach us about tax law? Well, by understanding what we aren’t supposed to do, we should be able to figure out what we are supposed to do, at least in the eyes of the IRS.

      • We’re supposed to pay a portion of anything inherited or received as a gift if it’s worth a significant amount.
      • If we’re taking out a loan instead of receiving a gift, we have to go through proper channels in order to ensure that the payment schedules and interest rates are set fairly.
  • And we’re not supposed to lie about the values of our properties,  investments , or business expenses.

Sounds pretty simple, right? The truth is, most of our lengthy and confusing tax code can be distilled to these core values:

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
7.1.2  gooseisback  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1    6 days ago
White collar crime is woefully under prosecuted in the United States

Ok JR, so you got nothing. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
7.1.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  gooseisback @7.1.2    6 days ago

Looks like a WHOLE LOT of nothing, no ?

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
7.1.4  gooseisback  replied to  igknorantzrulz @7.1.3    6 days ago
Looks like a WHOLE LOT of nothing

You got part of it right. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1.5  JohnRussell  replied to  igknorantzrulz @7.1.3    6 days ago

I would suspect that all of these tax fraud allegations involving his father's money are just the tip of an iceberg. If Trump was committing tax fraud 20 or 30 years ago do people seriously believe he isnt still trying to do so?

When is that IRS audit going to be completed by the way? 

This guy is guilty as shit of all this and very likely much much more. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.6  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  gooseisback @7.1.2    6 days ago

Oh for fuck's sake.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1.7  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.5    6 days ago
One of the ways that this was accomplished was through a company named All County Building Supply and Maintenance, according to the Times. This company was hired by Fred Trump, owned by his children, and used to give them money through expense reports fraud.

By the way, the inflated cost of building supplies was passed on to the tenants in the form of rent hikes so Trump and his family made out in multiple ways from this illegal scheme. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.1.8  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.7    6 days ago

By the way, the revelation of all this fraud is what caused Trump's sister to retire early from her judgeship. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
7.1.9  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.5    6 days ago
When is that IRS audit going to be completed by the way? 

NEVER at the rate shit is accumulating, and it couldn't happen tpo a "nicer" individual.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.1.10  Vic Eldred  replied to  JohnRussell @7.1.1    5 days ago

All that and no indictment.

Is he a genius?

Is he a God?

How can it be?

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.11  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.1.10    5 days ago
How can it be?

$$$ and influence.    Remember this?:

The longtime accountants for former President Donald Trump and the Trump Organization have quit. The accounting firm Mazars USA says it can no longer stand behind a decade's worth of financial statements that it prepared and signed. The decision could have a major impact on hundreds of millions of dollars in bank loans. And the withdrawal of support from Mazars USA comes at a precarious moment for the Trump family business.

You interpret Trump's legal successes as innocence but the reality is far more likely that we are seeing the difference in how the law works with affluency.   Similar to the difference in how finance works with affluency.   The opportunities available when one has wealth are substantial compared to the average 401k holding citizen.

This is reality;  best to deal with it sans rose-colored glasses and especially sans partisan blindness.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.1.12  Vic Eldred  replied to  TᵢG @7.1.11    5 days ago

Trump has no influence with his pursuers, with or without money. Have you ever listened to NY AG Letitia James speak of Trump?  She campaigned on getting Trump. She made sadistic remarks about Trump. The Mueller team were all anti-Trump democrats. Comey was spying on Trump and lied to Trump about it.

I have no idea as to Trump being innocent of embellishing his property value. I suspect he took classified documents to his home. I do know he was innocent of the Russia/collusion nonsense. That is only three of the many investigations involving Trump since he became President. There is no question about the resolve of those doing the investigating.


I'm simply amazed that they have yet to find something to indict him with.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
7.1.13  TᵢG  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.1.12    5 days ago
Trump has no influence with his pursuers, ...

Of course he has no influence over those bringing charges, but he has influence with connected individuals and he has the $$$ to hire the best attorneys.

She campaigned on getting Trump.

So what?   The guy has a major league dishonest history in New York.   It is like making a campaign promise to go after an infamous criminal and then doing so.   I do not care how biased she might be against Trump.  What matters is what he did and the evidence showing this.   Either she has the evidence or she does not.   It makes great sense that she does have the evidence unless she and her staff seek short careers.

I have no idea as to Trump being innocent of embellishing his property value.

No idea?   Nothing?   Not a hint?   Is it, for example, irrelevant that Trump's accounting firm Mazars USA refused to stand by the books they had prepared for him for decades?   That is not even a hint for you?

I suspect he took classified documents to his home.

You suspect this?   You do not know this?   What exactly is required for you to recognize that he did indeed have TS/SCI classified documents in his home?   You do know that there is no record of these being declassified and Trump's own attorneys refuse to claim they were declassified to the special master.   So what is left ... doubting that they were in his home?  ... doubting that they were indeed classified documents?   Good grief, Vic.

I do know he was innocent of the Russia/collusion nonsense.

All sorts of doubt on wrongdoing, but you have utmost confidence in not wrongdoing.    Funny how that works.   Well, what I know is that there was insufficient evidence to charge Trump with a crime.   That suggests the Russia/collusion case was more allegation than fact.   

That is only three of the many investigations involving Trump since he became President. There is no question about the resolve of those doing the investigating.

Does not matter.   Trump either engaged in wrongdoing (some criminal) or not.   Given the crap he pulled in his Big Lie, it should be obvious to anyone what Trump is capable of doing and to what depths he will go to get what he wants.   The benefit of the doubt Trump supporters show him is beyond naïve — it is a blindness ... a confirmation bias.

I want to see all of this processed by our legal system.   Although even if Trump is found guilty / liable (depending upon the case) I expect Trump sycophants to claim a rigged trial.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
7.1.14  Ronin2  replied to  igknorantzrulz @7.1.3    4 days ago

Manufactured bullshit is the best bullshit. 

John's link goes over well with the people that value quantity or quality.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.15  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @7.1.14    4 days ago

Which is all you have.  Manufactured bullshit.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
7.1.16  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.1.10    4 days ago
"Is he a genius?
Is he a God?"

You and all his enablers/supporters seem to think so.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  gooseisback @7    6 days ago

Get ready for the deflection meter to peak at maximum!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.2.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @7.2    6 days ago

Extremely detailed allegations are not deflection, but delude yourself if you must. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.2.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.1    6 days ago

Allegations are extremely subjective and are in no way equivalent to the evidence you seem to think they are. Allegations do not will court cases whereas good rock solid evidence in a legitimate court of law does.

 
 
 
gooseisback
Sophomore Silent
7.2.3  gooseisback  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.1    6 days ago
allegations !

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.2.4  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @7.2.2    6 days ago

As I and others have pointed out many times, it is the evidence that points to innocence or guilt, not necessarily a court verdict. 

Let's say Bernie Madoff was found "not guilty" or was never indicted. Would he then be "innocent"? Of course not. The evidence against him was too strong. 

People get away with crimes, including financial crimes, every day. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.2.5  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.4    6 days ago

And whether you like it or not, our legal system in this country still espouses the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law my a jury of peers. So by the above, are you saying you do not do believe in our justice system or is it only good for some but not for others? 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
7.3  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  gooseisback @7    6 days ago

Can't list what does not exist.

 
 
 
Diablo Imperius
Professor Guide
8  Diablo Imperius    6 days ago

I do what they are accusing Trump of doing almost every other year.  It's totally legit. They created the fucking system not me.   Now they just want to phony up some charges to pursue their rancid and toxic political agenda.

[Deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
8.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Diablo Imperius @8    6 days ago

Turn yourself in to the authorities. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
8.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  JohnRussell @8.1    4 days ago

For doing what the law allows? 

What do you expect authorities to do? Besides kick him back out onto the street and tell him to fuck off for wasting their time? 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
8.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Diablo Imperius @8    6 days ago
They created the fucking system not me.   Now they just want to phony up some charges to pursue their rancid and toxic political agenda. And for those of you that don't have a fucking clue as to what I'm referring to, just STFU!

Yes, the lobbyists employed by those fleecing our system are sent to influence said system to benefit they, the manipulating menaces to a so what society that think they are above you ? and me, but since you agree with those who believe they are above, feel free to show me some Luv or just STFU as ewe so in artfully state it, before , you just may hate it...

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
PhD Guide
8.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Diablo Imperius @8    4 days ago
Now they just want to phony up some charges to pursue their rancid and toxic political agenda.

That's exactly what it is.  And has been since around 2016.  

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9  JohnRussell    6 days ago
FOX NEWSoriginal

‘Let’s Move On’: Fox News Abruptly Cuts Away From NY AG’s Trump Lawsuit Presser

NOTHING TO SEE HERE

While CNN and MSNBC aired the press conference announcing a fraud lawsuit against Trump in full, Fox News decided its viewers wouldn’t be interested.

New York Attorney General Letitia James had been speaking live for about 10 minutes on Wednesday morning about the state’s massive fraud lawsuit  against Donald Trump, his adult children, and their business organization when Fox News made the abrupt decision to cut away.

James was just starting to lay out the specifics of the Trump family’s alleged crimes when “straight news” anchor Harris Faulker broke in to tell viewers the news likely did not concern them.

“Some of this is really inside baseball unless it’s your tax dollars in New York,” Faulkner said. “And some may even accuse it of being political because we’re 48 days before the midterm elections.” She then added, without explanation: “And both presidents, the current and the past, are certainly being looked at to help candidates out.”

Faulkner promised that Fox News is “certainly going to cover” the lawsuit moving forward and would bring “highlights” to viewers as they happen. “But the big headline in all of this is the lawsuit by the state of New York just announced by Letitia James,” she continued before adding, “Let’s move on.”

While Fox aired just a small portion of the announcement before discussing it for all of 40 seconds, both CNN and MSNBC carried the nearly 35 minute press conference in full and have continued to cover it as the day’s top story.

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
9.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JohnRussell @9    6 days ago

G, what a surprise. Sure as hell ain't no wonder as to why so many in this country have a skewed version of reality. Just don't tell them so they don't have to THINK, what a damn country !

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.1  JohnRussell  replied to  igknorantzrulz @9.1    6 days ago

And they do it so blatantly !

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
9.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  igknorantzrulz @9.1    6 days ago

We will now hear from the typical Fox News junkie that nothing happened, Trump is being persecuted, and what about Hunter Bidens laptop. 

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
9.1.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  JohnRussell @9.1.2    6 days ago
and what about Hunter Bidens laptop. 

that really bothers me. Hunteer Biden has NO impact on US at this time. If he violated laws, prosecute and indict or whatever as they always say about Trump. Yet Trump on the other hand is still the leader of the Republican Party, and the potential front runner if he does toss his hat in, so VERY pertinent to most any and all conversations going on, as the "Orange De Jesus" continues to wield unprecedented as well as unpresidential sway over the cult and dismay eventually lead to further violence inspired by the vile lenz that Trump appears to be viewed via     

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10  Tacos!    6 days ago

I have to admit, this suit sounds a little sketchy at first blush. An example of why:

She also said Trump valued Mar-a-Lago as high as $739 million by pretending it could be developed for residential use, and that it should have been valued closer to $75 million.

Based on what, exactly? Some fantasy she pulled out of her ass? Last month, Forbes estimated the value of Mar-a-lago at $350 million.  That’s not $750 million, but it’s not $75 million, either. Not close.

The larger numbers don’t seem impossible. Mar-a-lago isn’t just a random house in Florida. It’s a club and resort now. I think they have convention facilities. (Right on the water in a pretty fancy part of south Florida, btw). It’s also now a property belonging to a former President of the United States. You’d have to be wildly ignorant of real estate to not understand how a thing like that can impact value.

It’s at least the kind of thing reasonable people could disagree on. And if the state really had questions, they could run an audit or order an assessment. Was a lawsuit necessary?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @10    6 days ago

As I posted farther up this seed, in 2018 the NYT essentially proved that Trump and his brother and sister had committed multiple tax frauds involving their fathers estate over the course of many years. They have documents that prove this fraud. 

I imagine that these new allegations have similar documentary evidence. The question is not "is he innocent", it is what is anyone going to do about his guilt? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @10.1    6 days ago
in 2018 the NYT essentially proved that Trump and his brother and sister had committed multiple tax frauds involving their fathers estate over the course of many years

Wellll. That sounds nice, I suppose. It looks like they made a case and presented it to the public. Unless they put the same effort into getting Trump's side of the story, examining exculpatory documents, interviewed accountants, and so on - basically putting the evidence through the same kind of crucible it would endure in court, they didn't "essentially prove" anything. 

Logically, if the state AG or the federal DOJ thought the paper had proved anything, they'd have brought criminal charges.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.1.2  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @10.1.1    6 days ago
Logically, if the state AG or the federal DOJ thought the paper had proved anything, they'd have brought criminal charges.

Unless they weren't investigating him at the time, which is the case. 

By the time the NYT got their hands on the documents the statute of limitations had expired. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @10.1.1    6 days ago

Donald Trump, and his brother and sister, and their parents, all participated in elaborate schemes to avoid the taxes that would incur from Fred Trump leaving his hundreds of millions of dollars to his children. According to the documentary evidence the NYT uncovered, this is not in factual doubt. 

 
 
 
Greg Jones
Professor Guide
10.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  JohnRussell @10.1.3    5 days ago

What evidence are you talking about?

 
 
 
igknorantzrulz
PhD Quiet
10.2  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Tacos! @10    6 days ago
It’s at least the kind of thing reasonable people could disagree on. And if the state really had questions, they could run an audit or order an assessment. Was a lawsuit necessary?

That is just ONE of MANY. I thoughtbi heard her mention some restrictions on Mar Lar Go that specifically limited or increased its' value as well. 23% if sold was required go to charity (hopefullyb none the Trump Crime family is affiliated with) if i recall correctly, and something about possibly NOT being able to made into residential housing, thus severely diminishing its worth, but, i am speculating on facts so i'll stop. Trumps' former lawyer brought this to light, i seem inclined to believe him, as it certainly sounds like the Trump we have all seen and don't love, well, at least not i

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.2.1  Tacos!  replied to  igknorantzrulz @10.2    6 days ago

I don't like Trump, but you really do have to be skeptical of every new case that pops up. The political motivations are obvious and this stuff has been going on for years, now.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.2  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Tacos! @10.2.1    6 days ago

When the opposition keeps throwing stuff at a wall hoping something will stick, it can indeed be difficult to have any real faith in my what is being said or attempted.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.2    6 days ago

Especially if you dont read any of it. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.4  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.3    6 days ago

I did read what you wrote John. I just disagreed with most of it. This is still a free country where that is allowed you know.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.5  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.4    6 days ago

I am not asking you to read what I wrote, I am suggesting that you read the mountain of evidence that the NYT developed that Trump committed tax fraud. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.6  JohnRussell  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.5    6 days ago
According to tax experts, it is unlikely that Mr. Trump would be vulnerable to criminal prosecution for helping his parents evade taxes, because the acts happened too long ago and are past the statute of limitations. There is no time limit, however, on civil fines for tax fraud.

The findings are based on interviews with Fred Trump’s former employees and advisers and more than 100,000 pages of documents describing the inner workings and immense profitability of his empire. They include documents culled from public sources — mortgages and deeds, probate records, financial disclosure reports, regulatory records and civil court files.

The investigation also draws on tens of thousands of pages of confidential records — bank statements, financial audits, accounting ledgers, cash disbursement reports, invoices and canceled checks. Most notably, the documents include more than 200 tax returns from Fred Trump, his companies and various Trump partnerships and trusts. While the records do not include the president’s personal tax returns and reveal little about his recent business dealings at home and abroad, dozens of corporate, partnership and trust tax returns offer the first public accounting of the income he received for decades from various family enterprises.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.2.7  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @10.2.1    6 days ago

No.  You, maybe, have to be really skeptical of 'every new casebthat pops up'

Political motivations?

Again

Right

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.2.8  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.6    6 days ago

But, but, but

It's all so sketchy

All these cases that 'pop up'

jrSmiley_80_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.9  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.5    6 days ago

FYI, I did read through what you posted but they are still allegations, innuendo, and accusations instead of solid evidence.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.10  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.9    6 days ago

Ed, they have the documents. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.2.11  Tacos!  replied to  Tessylo @10.2.7    6 days ago
Political motivations?

Again

Right

You’re right, of course. Why would anyone with the authority to file lawsuits against a potential presidential candidate allow themselves to be motivated by politics? What was I thinking?

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.12  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.10    6 days ago

When alleged documents are presented as official evidence in a court of law, then we can agree.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.13  JohnRussell  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.12    6 days ago

We are far past the point when people can , with a straight face, refer to Donald Trump as an innocent man. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.14  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.13    6 days ago

I would love to play poker with you.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.15  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.2.14    6 days ago

Another nonsensical comment. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.16  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.13    6 days ago

The law is still the law John and nothing you can say will change that. If he is guilty, it will be because a judge and jury in a court of law find him so, bottom line. The difference between you and me on this is that, while it is not always perfect,  I believe in our justice system where you seemingly do not. I am done here and we should just agree to disagree and go on. Have a good evening John.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.17  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.15    6 days ago

No, your arrogant confidence in deducing opponent’s hands because of how you read their poker face is the kind of player that I like sitting across from me.  Do you play poker regularly?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.18  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.2.17    6 days ago

I have no idea what you are talking about, thank god. 

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.19  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.2.14    6 days ago

So would I but I'd have to pull the fifth ace out of my sleeve...

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.20  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.18    6 days ago
I have no idea what you are talking about, thank god.

Exactly, a great poker patsy. 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.21  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.19    6 days ago

And you might well be able to pull it off.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
10.2.22  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.2.21    6 days ago

Wouldn't be the first time. Had a USMC Sargent who was a Chiricahua Apache show me how. Now those guys have great poker faces and are good poker players. Just don't ever piss them off!😆

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.23  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @10.2.22    6 days ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
10.2.24  JohnRussell  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @10.2.23    6 days ago

Are you under the delusion that all this pointless blubbering makes you look better?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Freshman Principal
10.2.25  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JohnRussell @10.2.24    6 days ago
pointless blubbering makes you look better?

Looks better to whom?  You, NT readers?  Talk about irrelevant shit.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.3  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @10    6 days ago

Sketchy

RightjrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.3.1  Tacos!  replied to  Tessylo @10.3    6 days ago

I am not surprised that some people will accept all the allegations without question.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.3.2  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @10.3.1    6 days ago

Of course you're not!

jrSmiley_78_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.3.3  Tacos!  replied to  Tessylo @10.3.2    5 days ago

Omg you didn’t even get it. jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.3.4  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @10.3.3    4 days ago

FUCK OFF

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
10.4  devangelical  replied to  Tacos! @10    5 days ago
It’s also now a property belonging to a former President of the United States. You’d have to be wildly ignorant of real estate to not understand how a thing like that can impact value.

I think you answered your own question.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Expert
10.4.1  Tacos!  replied to  devangelical @10.4    5 days ago
I think you answered your own question.

Yeah, I do that a lot. Questions are for rhetorical effect. I actually already have all the answers. jrSmiley_82_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
10.4.2  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @10.4    4 days ago

Something belonging to that turd isn't worth shit just like him - a steaming pile of shit.  

 
 
 
George
Freshman Silent
11  George    6 days ago

[deleted]

[charges!]

[Guilty!]

[Jail time!]

[deleted]

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
Professor Quiet
11.1  Ed-NavDoc  replied to  George @11    6 days ago

As I previously posted above, can't list what does not exist although some will certainly try.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
12  JohnRussell    6 days ago

newrepublic.com   /article/167824/trump-organization-tish-james-fraud

It’s Fraud All the Way Down at the Trump Organization

Matt Ford 9-11 minutes   9/20/2022


Former President Donald Trump defrauded banks, insurers, and tax agencies out of at least a quarter-billion dollars over roughly the last decade, the New York attorney general’s office said on Wednesday. That totaling came as   part of a lawsuit   filed against   Trump and his family   real-estate business,   the Trump Organization , that sought to recoup those illicit profits and ban Trump and his top lieutenants from running a company in New York ever again.

“With the help of his children and senior executives at the Trump Organization, Donald Trump falsely inflated his net worth by billions of dollars to unjustly enrich himself and cheat the system,” New York   Attorney General Letitia James   said in a statement on Wednesday. “In fact, the very foundation of his purported net worth is rooted in incredible fraud and illegality. Mr. Trump thought he could get away with the art of the steal, but today, that conduct ends.”

Trump, through a spokesperson, denied any wrongdoing and accused James of unspecified misconduct. “Today’s filing is neither focused on the facts nor the law—rather, it is solely focused on advancing the attorney general’s political agenda,” Alina Habba, a Trump attorney,   said in a statement . “It is abundantly clear that the attorney general’s office has exceeded its statutory authority by prying into transactions where absolutely no wrongdoing has taken place. We are confident that our judicial system will not stand for this unchecked abuse of authority, and we look forward to defending our client against each and every one of the attorney general’s meritless claims.”

The civil lawsuit does not put the former president at risk for prison time or a criminal conviction on its own, setting it apart from some of Trump’s other legal morasses across the country. But it could prove to be destructive to his business empire. If James’s lawsuit succeeds, Trump and his three eldest children—Donald Jr., Ivanka, and Eric—could lose control of the company and be barred from regaining it in the future. Paying off any fines or penalties, which the attorney general’s office estimated as at least $250 million, could require the Trump Organization to sell off major assets.

James does not have the power to criminally prosecute Trump for the alleged violations of state law, though she referred her findings to federal prosecutors in Manhattan and to the Internal Revenue Service to determine whether he broke any federal laws. Her findings will also likely raise new questions for Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, who declined to pursue further charges against Trump on the same matter earlier this year. Two prosecutors later resigned over that decision.

In the 222-page lawsuit, James lays out how the Trump Organization created billions of dollars of value for its various properties out of thin air. The company and its top lieutenants are described as defying basic accounting practices, avoiding independent valuations, and pressuring appraisers to highball or lowball their estimates, depending on whether or not the result would be more favorable to the Trump Organization at the time.

Perhaps the most fitting example is Trump’s varying valuations of his triplex apartment at Trump Tower in New York City. For years, Trump and his company claimed that the roughly 30,000-square-foot unit was valued at roughly $180 million, which would have made it the most expensive unit in Manhattan—a place where apartment units don’t exactly go for cheap. There was only one hitch: The unit itself was only about a third of that size, making what was already a gross overestimate by market standards into an inconceivable one. Trump used the higher valuation to obtain better homeowner’s insurance until 2017, when Forbes magazine publicly reported the lower footprint.

Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida saw similar feats of accounting acrobatics. When Trump purchased the property, it came with a variety of land-use restrictions, zoning requirements, and conservation standards. This meant that, among other things, he could not simply parcel it out into smaller residential properties. Before his own ascent to the presidency, Trump and his company also noted that it was deemed unsuitable for other hoped-for uses, including as a formal retreat for government officials.

None of those restrictions, however, made their way into the valuations of the properties. “The Mar-a-Lago club was valued as high as $739 million based on the false premise that it was unrestricted property and could be developed and sold for residential use, even though Mr. Trump himself signed deeds donating his residential development rights and sharply restricting changes to the property,” the New York attorney general’s office said in its filing. “In reality, the club generated annual revenues of less than $25 million and should have been valued at closer to $75 million.”

This is a bit like pricing a midsized sedan above its Kelley Blue Book value when it can’t go in reverse, and then claiming it could also be used to resupply the International Space Station. Since those valuations mostly preceded Trump’s presidency, they also did not include the troves of classified material he apparently stored on the site until recently once he left the White House in 2021. The dodgy estimates also place his occasional efforts to host international gatherings, including the G-7 summit, while president in a new light.

In one remarkable part of the lawsuit, the attorney general’s office described an effort by Trump to justify the valuation of his 40 Wall Street property, whose assessment was—you guessed it—somewhat inflated. In one instance, Trump and his lieutenants pushed back against concerns raised by the bank Capital One, which questioned in 2009 whether the cash flow of the property could justify the $160 million mortgage they had given the Trump Organization to acquire it.

“At one of those meetings, Mr. Trump said that if the bank tried to restructure the loan because of a low loan-to-value based on a bank appraisal, he would counter a low appraisal by creating a Trump University lease for the vacant space and then order his own appraisal,” the lawsuit said. “According to Mr. Trump, the lease would ‘pump up’ the value and the net result would be either a third appraisal or some sort of arbitration or litigation.” Trump University ultimately shut down in 2016 as part of a $25 million settlement to resolve a multi-state consumer-fraud lawsuit, making the proposed scheme look something like a M.C. Escher painting where every staircase leads to fraud.

James already disclosed many of her findings earlier this year when she persuaded the federal courts not to quash her subpoena of Trump himself and his adult children who worked for the Trump Organization. (Neither Tiffany Trump nor Barron Trump, who were minors for most of the time period described in the lawsuit, are named in it.) Trump ultimately lost when the Supreme Court declined to intervene over the summer and invoked the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination more than 450 times. The use of that right can’t be held against him in criminal trials. But the same does not necessarily hold true for civil proceedings, where judges and juries   can generally draw adverse inferences   from his refusal to answer questions.

Trump is no stranger to legal peril and it is always possible that he will find a way to escape the most dire consequences in this case, as he has in others. But the James lawsuit is a uniquely potent threat to the former president. It is a state-level proceeding, meaning that Trump cannot simply make it go away if he reclaims the presidency in 2024. The case cannot be redirected before a friendly Trump-appointed federal judge, as Trump did in an attempt to hinder the Mar-a-Lago investigation in recent weeks. And there is little chance that New York officials answerable to the Empire State’s mostly Democratic electorate will bend things his way or intervene on his behalf.

In some ways, the stakes are even higher in this case than they are in the January 6 investigation or the Mar-a-Lago investigation or any other criminal investigations, known and unknown, that he faces. If the lawsuit prevails, even if no further criminal charges are filed, Trump could lose control of his family company, and with it, the principal basis of his personal wealth. He could see himself shut out of running any other company that operates in New York for the rest of his life. What’s more, his own children could also find themselves facing similar consequences for the rest of their lives as well.

Trump has not yet committed to running for president in 2024 even though it is all but assumed that he will. Wednesday’s lawsuit may make that decision inevitable now. If Trump perceives that his only chance of maintaining his lifestyle and wealth is to regain the presidency, he could be even more motivated to regain that office than ever before. His family’s fortunes may, quite literally, depend on it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.1  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @12    6 days ago

305193650_6082390355105918_6572052507563102475_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s600x600&_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7PZRm6LFzC8AX-hwOMW&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_l0sFrtXFwFXIYLK64i4SloUuj7GVkznXBQkpDvYIGpg&oe=6330D3A0

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
12.1.1  Ronin2  replied to  Tessylo @12.1    4 days ago

No one will be wearing orange over this. Expect maybe a bunch of TDS driven lunatics screaming "Orange Man Bad!" if the trial doesn't go their way.

They aren't filing criminal charges. They are suing. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
12.1.2  seeder  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @12.1.1    4 days ago

Pay attention son.

You're wrong.

As usual.

Give it up while you're behind, as usual.  

Who said they anyone was filing criminal charges?

 
 
 
Snuffy
Masters Guide
13  Snuffy    5 days ago

The other question not being asked here is will this even see the inside of the courtroom?  As this is just a civil suit, what is the potential that Trump will offer a settlement that the AG accepts?

I think the odds are good that this settles before getting into the courtroom as most juries in the State of New York will not be populated by people who think fondly of Trump and family.  It could be cheaper in the long run to settle. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
13.1  Ronin2  replied to  Snuffy @13    4 days ago

Trump can't settle as many will take it as an admission of guilt; rather than paying off a politically driven AG trying to move up the Democrat ranks.

Trump is going to have to see it through. He has high powered attorneys and accountants. They have to shred her case to pieces and present it nationally. That way if a biased jury finds for the AG NY will come out looking like a shithole to the rest of the US.

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
13.1.1  TᵢG  replied to  Ronin2 @13.1    4 days ago
That way if a biased jury finds for the AG NY will come out looking like a shithole to the rest of the US.

Does it occur to you that the Trump might indeed be liable?

I acknowledge that, although unlikely given Trump's historical business practices, he might not be liable.   But given what we know of Trump and the fact that the AG has made such a public stink about this and is pursuing a trial and referrals to the DoJ and the IRS, it is strange to see people categorically dismiss this as frivolous.

That said, I fully expect certain individuals to interpret a finding for the plaintiff to be proof of a rigged judicial process (you telegraphed that with your 'biased jury' phrase).   For some, no matter what, Trump is not at fault.

 
 
 
Revillug
Freshman Guide
14  Revillug    4 days ago

My brain has been trained to expect that there will be no consequences for Donald Trump.

It's a sort of an irrational learned helplessness thing.

Does anyone else on here feel the same way?

I don't remember ever having this exact feeling about government before. Administrations and congress came and went. On some issues, like military spending, "the new boss" would turn out to be "same as the old boss." But the sense of powerlessness was tempered by the feeling that we were still on some long arduous journey to a better place. That we just needed to work harder to get the right people in government.

Now it almost feels like there is a secret shadow government invested in keeping Trump free of consequences and continuing their ongoing coup.  

 
 
 
TᵢG
Professor Principal
14.1  TᵢG  replied to  Revillug @14    4 days ago
My brain has been trained to expect that there will be no consequences for Donald Trump.

Quite the enigma.   One skill he does seem to have is skirting consequences.

 
 

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