Detransitioner: 'I'm suing the doctors who removed my healthy breasts'

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  2 months ago  •  28 comments

By:   Rikki Schlott (New York Post)

Detransitioner: 'I'm suing the doctors who removed my healthy breasts'
Camille Kiefel, 32, had her healthy breasts removed in 2020 to align with her nonbinary gender identity. Two and a half years later, she's suing her social worker, therapist, and the gender clinics they work for — seeking up to $850,000 in damages.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T



Detransitioner Camille Kiefel is suing the medical team that approved the gender-neutral top surgery in 2020 that left her with painful complications.

"Sometimes in the shower, I realize they're gone. I just have these scars."

Camille Kiefel, 32, had her healthy breasts removed in 2020 to align with her nonbinary gender identity. She says her doctors approved the surgery after two Zoom meetings, breezing past a whole host of mental health issues.

Now that Camille is in a better place mentally, she realizes her surgery was a mistake. So, two and a half years later, she's suing her social worker, therapist, and the gender clinics they work for — Brave Space Oregon and Quest Center for Integrative Health — seeking up to $850,000 in damages.

As a child, Camille never gave her gender identity a thought. But when her best friend was raped by a relative in sixth grade, she said she became acutely aware of her femininity. Around that time her father also imparted well-meaning advice that backfired.

Kiefel during a period in her 20s when she identified as non-binary following coursework in gender studies at Portland State University. Courtesy of Camille Kiefel

"My dad told me about how men talked about girls, because he wanted to protect me and to get me to dress more conservatively," she told The Post. "But it made my anxiety worse. All that really screwed me up. I remember I was even afraid to be alone."

From that point on, she began dressing more androgynously. "I didn't want to highlight my curves. I had a lot of discomfort around my breasts and hips."

Images of Kiefel from her childhood, a period in which she paid little attention to gender until a friend was sexually assaulted in the sixth grade. Dina Avila for NY Post

But the idea that she might not actually be a woman didn't occur to Camille until she enrolled at Portland State University, where she minored in gender studies and was introduced to alternative views about sex and gender.

By the time she reached her mid-20s, she embraced a nonbinary label and used she/they pronouns. All the while, she was struggling with a slew of mental-health issues, including anxiety disorder, social anxiety, PTSD, major depressive disorder and ADHD.

Kiefel in a candid shot just before her breast removal surgery in August 2020.

In the depths of the pandemic in 2020, Camille, then 30, was still struggling and thought gender-neutral top surgery could ease her mental-health issues. "I was so dysfunctional, and I just wanted something that was going to help me," she recalled. "I thought I would be happier."

She got a referral to a major gender clinic in Oregon, where she talked to doctors via Zoom twice — once in May and once in July, each time for about an hour. And that was all it took. She said she never saw anyone in person before she had her breasts removed on Aug. 28. (Brave Space Oregon and Quest Center for Integrative Health did not respond to requests for comment.)

Kiefel's double mastectomy took place under the supervision of a pair of Oregon gender clinics, Brave Space Oregon and Quest Center for Integrative Health (above).Google Maps

Complications were almost immediate. She said she experienced trouble swallowing and scopolamine poisoning from a patch on the back of her ear meant to treat nausea, which caused her pupils to dilate for months post-surgery.

All of a sudden, she said the doctors who approved of her surgery and validated her feelings left her in the lurch. "Doctors took me seriously up until surgery, but after I developed all these complications, I noticed they stopped taking me seriously," Camille said. "I was on my own at that point."

Another image of Kiefel during her non-binary period, when she also suffered from anxiety disorder, social anxiety, PTSD, major depressive disorder and ADHD.Courtesy of Camille Kiefel

And, while she hoped the procedure would help her mental health, she wasn't quite so sure when she saw the final result: "I remember when the doctor took the bandages off, I felt kind of mixed."

In the ensuing months, Camille got her mental and physical health in order, and once again identifies as a female. She said she now sees the situation from a more stable viewpoint.

The feminist organization the Women's Liberation Front is helping Kiefel mount her lawsuit against the groups and individuals who green-lit her surgery.

"There's nothing to transition to as nonbinary," Camille said. "There's no third sex out there. It's just based on a feeling that this would be a good fit for you. It's a designer surgery but I didn't think of it at the time . . . It's a weird Frankenstein surgery that they're doing."

In retrospect, she noticed just how much her doctors had overlooked when they approved her procedure. She told them about the trauma she experienced when her friend was raped and her emotional struggles. Yet she was still given a green light to remove her breasts.

Kiefel is following in the footsteps of British detransitioner Keira Bell, who has sued Tavistock, the center that performed her medical transition.FACUNDO ARRIZABALAGA/EPA-EFE/ShuBell transitioned from female to male during her late teens. Five years after undergoing a double mastectomy at age 20, she decided to detransition back to female.

"The doctors are under this gender ideology as well, so there's this sort of idea that you can have mental illness and be trans," she explained. "It's almost like a confirmation bias and they didn't really look into it."

Her dating life has also been impacted. Recently, a partner broke up with her when they found out she doesn't have breasts. And, although Camille would like to have children one day, she will never be able to breastfeed.

Although she now identifies as a woman, Kiefel no longer has breasts and will be unable to breastfeed if she has children. Dina Avila for NY Post

"I still get sad about that," she said. "It's depressing what happened. I had this radical surgery, and now I'll always deal with the consequences."

Camille is being represented by Jackson Bone LLP in her legal battle in Oregon State Court and is being supported by the feminist organization Women's Liberation Front.

She hopes that taking the case to court will prevent history from repeating itself.

Many people "who should not be getting these surgeries are getting these surgeries," she said. "There are underlying health issues that are being overlooked. People like myself are slipping through the cracks."


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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    2 months ago


This case is about mental health providers who breached their duty of providing care for a very mixed up individual. They did irreputable harm to their patient and they may have made false representations to Medicaid. These so called "professionals" were not dedicated to any standards of professionalism, but to an ideology.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    2 months ago

And that ideology is what?  Do whatever it takes to make a buck?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1    one month ago
And that ideology is what?

The same ideology that pushed CRT, sanctuary cities, open borders and reparations!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Expert
1.1.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.1.1    one month ago

What made me think of Abba Eban's comment about never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.1.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @1.1.2    one month ago

Jackie Mason though Eban might have been one of the greatest speakers of all time.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
1.2  Tacos!  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    one month ago
This case is about mental health providers who breached their duty of providing care for a very mixed up individual.

I’m not sure this would encompass their duty of care, but I’m sure that’s a very jurisdiction-specific issue.

As a general matter, the duty of care for mental health providers does not involve taking a patient to the best decision possible. It’s usually about protecting from self harm or suicide, that kind of thing. They also often have a duty of care to people who are not their patients, in a case where their patient might be planning on harming someone else. They also usually have a duty of care regarding privacy. 

Making sure you figure out your life in the healthiest way possible is not their duty, and it’s so vague, I don’t know how we could enforce such a standard.

I imagine that therapists and surgeons in this case would argue that they felt surgery was the best path to preventing a worse outcome, and since this patient is still alive, they might be right.

 
 
 
independent Liberal
Freshman Quiet
1.2.1  independent Liberal  replied to  Tacos! @1.2    one month ago

Let's get down to the heart of this issue, It's propelled and perpetuated by mostly men and women that don't want to admit they are gay and want to order the chicken pad guy at the Thai restaurant and feel straight. The same applies to the opposite sex ordering the chicken pad girl. The victim of influence is the person transitioning who is driven by the fetish propaganda. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
1.2.2  Tacos!  replied to  independent Liberal @1.2.1    one month ago

Don’t bother trolling me.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.3  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Tacos! @1.2    one month ago
As a general matter, the duty of care for mental health providers does not involve taking a patient to the best decision possible. It’s usually about protecting from self harm or suicide, that kind of thing.

Even to those of us who are not mental health care providers, it is clear when you listen to some of these people that they are very mixed up. That is a condition that needs correcting long before they should be allowed to make such a consequential decision.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
1.2.4  JBB  replied to  Vic Eldred @1.2.3    one month ago

That why laymen can't practice psychiatry! 

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Sophomore Principal
1.2.5  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  JBB @1.2.4    one month ago

You should use a gender neutral term instead of layman.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1.2.6  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  JBB @1.2.4    one month ago

The article proves why we should never put all our faith in the self described "professionals.'

Hopefully they get their asses sued via another group of "professionals."

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2  Jeremy Retired in NC    2 months ago

There is so much wrong in this whole situation.  And the problem is not just the doctors.  It's Camille Kiefel, those around her, medical professional, mental health professionals and society.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
2.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @2    one month ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
2.1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @2.1    one month ago

Removed for context

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Masters Silent
3  SteevieGee    one month ago

What happened to personal responsibility?

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.1  seeder  Vic Eldred  replied to  SteevieGee @3    one month ago

It begins with the age of reason and being of sound mind.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
3.2  Sparty On  replied to  SteevieGee @3    one month ago

Exactly but it’s not just her.    It’s both sides.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
4  Jeremy Retired in NC    one month ago

 There is even an activist appearing before  the House  Oversight Committee saying that those who want to detransition "don't exist".

How stupid are these people?  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.1  Tacos!  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @4    one month ago

I think part of the problem now is the extreme positions people take on these issues. For some people, if you identify one person who regrets the transition, then it must be bad for everyone. That’s not fair, of course, but as a matter of public policy, it could result in a total ban on the procedure. As a defensive response, you will get activists claiming that no one ever regrets the transition.

I think the truth is that it is right for a very small number of people. It’s probably inevitable that for some people, it will be a mistake, or at least fail to fulfill all their greatest hopes. That doesn’t mean it should be unavailable for the people who want it.

 
 
 
Sparty On
Professor Principal
4.1.1  Sparty On  replied to  Tacos! @4.1    one month ago
or at least fail to fulfill all their greatest hopes.

Yep, welcome to life.    To me this is a side effect coming from the participation trophy mentality.    Unrealistic expectations can bring more psychologically painful disappointments.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5  Tacos!    one month ago
she began dressing more androgynously. "I didn't want to highlight my curves. I had a lot of discomfort around my breasts and hips."

That’s fine. If you don’t want to dress all girly, then don’t. But unless you look at your breasts and think “I have to get these alien things off my body” or you look at your body and expect to see a penis, I kind of doubt you need surgery.

The thing I tell my kids - and anyone else who will listen - is that there are an infinite number of ways to live your life as a man or woman. Just because you’re a man, that does not mean you are required to wear pants or follow sports. Just because you are a woman, that does not mean you are required to make babies and cookies. What you are does not require you to behave in a certain way.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of societal pressure to behave in conformity with expectations based on gender. Defying those expectations can be difficult, and I suspect may drive some people to make radical changes that are unnecessary. Maybe something like that happened here.

Too many people get these surgeries without really thinking it through. But then people also get nose jobs, tattoos, and have other permanent procedures for the shakiest of reasons, and regret them later. That’s the world.

On the other hand, it’s the right thing for a handful of people. I have an old friend who transitioned and it’s been the best thing for him, but he wrestled with it for a long time. He had the surgery several years ago, and he has been very happy ever since.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.1  JBB  replied to  Tacos! @5    one month ago

As the saying goes, "Some kids are just born that way". There is an infinitesimal percentage of small children who steadfastly insist they are really the opposite sex from the ages of 3-6 who are at crazy high risk of suicide at puberty when trans boys develop breasts and hips and trans girls get facial hair and broad shoulders. If these kids, their parents, doctors and psychologists agree that delaying puberty is the required treatment to save their lives, why stop them?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  JBB @5.1    one month ago
If these kids, their parents, doctors and psychologists agree that delaying puberty is the required treatment to save their lives, why stop them?

It can be hard for us, as individuals or as a society, to be hands-off with other people’s kids or medical situations. This is both, of course.

We look at a situation and have strong opinions about what we would do, but we are not living their lives. We don’t have all the information and experience that they do. I also know that I wouldn’t want other people telling me how to raise my kids or what procedures I am allowed to have.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Participates
5.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  JBB @5.1    one month ago

Personally, I think for the most part, drugs and/or surgery should not be allowed before the child can officially and legally make that decision for themselves which would be at 18.

If a child is truly suicidal at such young ages then perhaps they need professional help in a facility that can protect them from themselves as well as provide mental health support away from the often corrosive toxic judgmental religious conservative environment that can be found in both public and private schools. The public schools have been attempting to create more welcoming environments for lgtbq children but there is clearly massive pushback from rightwing religious conservatives.

So making sure all our public spaces, public schools along with local, State and Federal government facilities are comfortable and safe spaces for our fellow lgtbq citizens is a necessary step in reducing the suicide rates among lgtbq children.

After that, it should be mental health care and support groups until the child is old enough to make often irreversible changes to their bodies. I feel the same way about tattoos, I don't think they should be allowed even with parental permission before the age of 18. Physical and or chemical alterations to a child unless truly medically necessary should be at minimum heavily reviewed, possibly even through the court system, before being approved and used.

I am all for their right to do whatever they want with their bodies after they reach adulthood, from piercing's, tattoos, body modifications, implants, file their teeth down to shark points, whatever, but not until they can make that decision for themselves.

We have different laws and rules when it comes to our children, both protections and punishments for crimes committed by children are mostly based on their lack of experience and recognized inability to use reasonable judgement and thus are given lighter sentences. So I don't find it unreasonable to have laws that would limit some of the choices a child may want to make due to their recognized inability to use reasonable judgement at times, whether it's to be emancipated at 13 or to go on hormone therapy to alter their gender at 13, that's a decision I'd rather have the court make after listening to the experts presenting both the pros and cons before letting a child make that kind of life altering decision.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
5.1.3  JBB  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @5.1.2    one month ago

It is extremely rare that puberty blockers are prescribed and like other extremely private family medical decisions I believe those personally involved like the prescribing psychiatrists, the family doctor and parents should be the final deciders.

Every case is different therefore those involved should decide. Not you nor I...

 
 
 
independent Liberal
Freshman Quiet
5.1.4  independent Liberal  replied to  JBB @5.1.3    one month ago

Every time puberty blockers are prescribed to a prepubescent child, some pervert relishes in their accomplishment. Once again there is zero science behind this. We do know however that prescribing these drugs do have several unintended consequences and are extremely unhealthy for extended periods of time. They are known to cause osteoporosis, cancer and mental illness in cross sex patients. These doctors should be delicensed and removed from practice. This experiment driven by halfwit activists and the perceived threat of being a bigot will end poorly.

A child cannot consent to this type of risk and life changing therapy. An adult cannot make this life long decision either. The transitioning youth must wait until they are an adult to make this decision. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
6  CB     one month ago
"The doctors are under this gender ideology as well, so there's this sort of idea that you can have mental illness and be trans," she explained. "It's almost like a confirmation bias and they didn't really look into it."

This woman, these women sound like they (both) have agendas. And, a couple of fools. No doctor is interesting in removing their breasts in order to face a pending (questionable, time-consuming) set of lawsuits. This is something else, even if it is just stupid women not girls.

Anyway, I hope the proper legal documents and psychological documentation is in both of the files and they can  go 'dream' about breastkissing, breastmilking, and whatever on their own time. It is cruel and unusual punishment to put the medical profession through this malcontents on the part of a client/s.

Now that they have 'registered' their point, I wish them well, as breastless women.

 
 

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