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Oklahoma parent sues after her daughter is allegedly 'severely beaten' by transgender student in bathroom

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  vic-eldred  •  last year  •  428 comments

By:   Jeffrey ClarkKristine Parks (Fox News)

Oklahoma parent sues after her daughter is allegedly 'severely beaten' by transgender student in bathroom
An Oklahoma parent is suing her school district after her 15-year-old daughter was beaten by a 17-year-old transgender student at school, according to a lawsuit.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


An Oklahoma resident and mother is suing her local school district after her 15-year-old daughter was allegedly "severely beaten" by a 17-year-old transgender student in the girl's bathroom.

The attack, according to the lawsuit filed May 25, occurred at Edmond Memorial High School on Oct. 26, 2022.

The parent is seeking $75,000 in damages for "severe physical and mental injuries, severe physical and mental pain and suffering, and severe emotional distress" that she claims her child suffered at school.

The lawsuit also alleges that the transgender student had "made previous threats of violence" against the victim at school and was searched for weapons by police after his threats against the victim were reported "by another student."

Protesters voice support for transgender inclusion in schools during a march in October 2022.(Mark Kerrison/In Pictures via Getty Images)

Included in the lawsuit is a direct reference to a law Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt's signed on May 25 that requires students at Oklahoma public schools "use restrooms that match the sex listed on their birth certificates."

According to the report filed after the alleged assault and obtained by Fox News Digital, the transgender student listed as student "A" entered the restroom and spoke to a female student. Soon after the two started arguing with each other, a fight broke out.

The student victim, labeled as "V" on the redacted report, told police she was speaking with friends in the girls' bathroom when student "A" approached her with a question. After telling "A" she didn't want to speak with her and why, "A" became angry and asked her if she "wanted to fight" before hitting her in the face. The alleged assailant continued to hit, kick and pull student "V's" hair.

"V" told police the strength of "A"'s punch left her unable to fight back. One friend reported they tried to help, but they were also struck in the face twice. A witness said they worried about their friend because the assailant was "a man."

Police observed one victim had injuries to her "eye, face and head with a possible concussion."

Gov. Kevin Stitt, flanked by House Speaker Charles McCall, third right, and Senate President Pro Tempore Greg Treat, second right, announces details of an education funding on Monday, May 15, 2023, in Oklahoma City.(AP Photo/Sean Murphy)

Edmond Public Schools Superintendent Angela Grunewald spoke out publicly after the incident in a video posted to YouTube in December 2022.

"You may ask yourself how can that happen?" Grunewald said.

"It's hard to explain, but if a parent comes in and enrolls their child as a certain gender, and when you look at that child by all social norms they look and present themselves as that gender, it's not something that you would question," she added.

Grunewald also addressed the confusion around the transgender student's birth certificate, as the police originally found that there was no gender listed on the transgender student's birth certificate.

"Also in high school, birth certificates are not required to start school. So there was no birth certificate in the (student's) file at the time to verify one way or another," Grunewald said.

A spokesperson for Edmond School District told Fox News Digital that it is the practice of the district not to comment on ongoing litigation.

In May, Oklahoma agreed not to enforce a ban on sex reassignment surgery and care for minors.



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Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Vic Eldred    last year


I think I'll issue a travel advisory : TO THE GIRL'S RESTROOM!

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1  Ozzwald  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    last year
I think I'll issue a travel advisory : TO THE GIRL'S RESTROOM!

Why?

How many fights or attacks have occurred in school bathrooms each day? 

How many of them involved a transgendered student on the giving, not receiving end?

Why are you only looking at something that occurs infrequently, if it all, instead of what occurs commonly?

Why are certain Congressmen so eager to pass laws to protect children from the LGBTQ+ crowd, but completely ignore the number 1 killer of children in this country?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Expert
1.1.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    last year
How many fights or attacks have occurred in school bathrooms each day?

Counter question - How many are males attacking females?  You know, like this situation was.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
1.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @1.1.1    last year

my 2 sisters were always getting into trouble for beating up boys at school...

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1.3  Ronin2  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    last year

How about multiple rapes since some have forgotten so soon.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.4  Ender  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.3    last year
In an Ohio high school last year, four boys forced a 14-year-old girl into a school storage closet and sexually assaulted her. In an Indiana middle school, six girls charged a classmate with groping their breasts and buttocks; choking, smacking, and slapping them.

Meanwhile, in a California elementary school, boys created a tradition of slapping and grabbing their female classmates’ buttocks, and called it “Slap Ass Fridays.”

It’s unnerving and uncomfortable to talk about, but student-on-student sexual assault and harassment happens with alarming frequency in school bathrooms, on school playgrounds, and in the backs of school buses. It’s happening at every level of education from preK to college.

It happened to Esther Warkov’s daughter, a student in Seattle public schools. In 2012, she was raped by a high school classmate—a boy who had previously been disciplined for sexual misconduct when he was in middle school—on a multi-day school field trip. The rape occurred in the presence of other students.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
1.1.5  Ronin2  replied to  Ender @1.1.4    last year

Pretty damn reprehensible; don't see anyone condoning it.

Still not boys pretending to be girls going into female bathrooms legally and raping and assaulting them.

But you do you.

Seems that leftist will condone this kind of thing from transgenders.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.6  Ender  replied to  Ronin2 @1.1.5    last year

Point being, rapes and assault occur more frequently with so called straight people. But do ignore all that and focus on a small element to try to make some point that trans people are somehow worse...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.7  Sean Treacy  replied to  Ender @1.1.6    last year
int being, rapes and assault occur more frequently with so called straight people

Are there more straight people than gay people? 

How does pointing out that the majority of people commit the majority of assaults make it acceptable for boys dressing as girls to assault girls in girls bathrooms? 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.8  Ender  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.7    last year

How does this one instance make it acceptable to paint all trans people with the same brush for the actions of one.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.9  Sean Treacy  replied to  Ender @1.1.8    last year
this one instance make it acceptable to paint all trans people with the same brush for the actions of one.

Who did that? 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
1.1.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sean Treacy @1.1.9    last year

the seeder of this  article.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.11  Ozzwald  replied to  Ender @1.1.6    last year

But do ignore all that and focus on a small element to try to make some point that trans people are somehow worse...

You notice that they do the same with immigrants?

1 immigrant commits a crime, and right wingers splash it all across the comment sphere, while ignoring that citizens have committed the same crime 10 times in the time it took him to type his comment.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
1.1.12  arkpdx  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    last year
How many fights or attacks have occurred in school bathrooms each day? 

Too many! 

How many of them involved a transgendered student on the giving, not receiving end?

Again too many! Even one is too many. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
Professor Quiet
1.1.13  Ozzwald  replied to  arkpdx @1.1.12    last year

Again too many! Even one is too many. 

Yet this article is only concerned with the occurrence which occurs less often, and has ignored all the previous ones that did not include a transgender child.  Which leads to only one conclusion. 

The author is more concerned that there is a transgender child in the school, than he/she is worried about all the assaults that occur there.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
1.1.14  Texan1211  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.13    last year

that is ridiculous, but why don't you seed an article discussing what you want it to?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1.1.15  Sean Treacy  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1.14    last year

Same people who blamed the girl for getting raped by the boy wearing woman clothes in the Virginia bathroom are fine with a boy punching a girl in the girls bathroom. 

Its identity Olympics.  First, figure out who is the most "oppressed" person involved is , and then figure out how to blame the other person

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.1.16  Jack_TX  replied to  Ender @1.1.8    last year
How does this one instance make it acceptable to paint all trans people with the same brush for the actions of one.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone do that.

I've also not seen anyone claim transgender people are "worse".

The complaint here is that the often militant defenders of trans people are continually, emotionally, and usually abusively demanding that we modify long established institutional structures in ways that make them less safe or fair for the people they were originally designed to protect.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.17  Ender  replied to  Jack_TX @1.1.16    last year

Bullshit.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.1.18  Jack_TX  replied to  Ender @1.1.17    last year
Bullshit.

I'm sure you'd like to think so.

So please demonstrate where anyone has claimed that all transgender people are like this boy.

Then please demonstrate where anyone has indicated that trans people are more violent.

In fact, just the opposite is happening on this very seed.  We have people claiming that the girl deserved the beating for something she must have said.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.19  Ender  replied to  Jack_TX @1.1.18    last year

What in the world do you think all the anti-trans bills are for, all the trans hate, all the pride boycotts. But yeah, it is all bullshit because of this one instance...

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.20  Tessylo  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1    last year

You're correct, as usual Ozz, some seem desperate to smear LGBTG over nothing - I don't know what this has to do with anything.  A big nothingberder.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.21  Tessylo  replied to  Ender @1.1.4    last year

why is it that their links NEVER support their allegations????

what does ronin's article have to do with this?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.22  Tessylo  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.11    last year

that's the m.o.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.23  Tessylo  replied to  Ozzwald @1.1.13    last year

exactly, because the child being transgender has nothing to do with the alleged assault

for all we know, the transgender child was finally fighting back against years of bullying

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.1.24  Tessylo  replied to  Ender @1.1.17    last year

yup, complete and utter bullshit

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
1.1.25  Jack_TX  replied to  Ender @1.1.19    last year
What in the world do you think all the anti-trans bills are for,

They are to preserve protections for women that have been in place for decades.  There were reasons at the time for establishing those protections.  Just because current liberal trans advocates don't understand those reasons does not mean they are no longer valid.

Women's bathrooms and locker rooms are old school "safe spaces" that most people think we still need and are not willing to give up.  

all the trans hate, all the pride boycotts.

I'm guessing you will never consider the idea that it's not the trans people.  It's the batshit lunatic subset of their defenders.

Y'know... those people who demand everybody else change things however they dictate and then accuse anybody who objects of "hate" or "fear" or some other character flaw.  Yeah.  People hate those fuckers.  With good reason.

The very idea that any person who wants to keep traditional protections for women must only want that because they "hate" trans people is just petulant bullshit.  

But yeah, it is all bullshit because of this one instance...

I'm not sure what 'it all' you're talking about, but this instance is a great example of the larger problem.

If this piece of shit was not transgender, he would be universally condemned.  People would be in favor of extended jail time, or possibly advocating for the varsity football team to take care of the matter on the side.

But because he identifies as trans, he jumps ahead of her in the victim hierarchy.  So now we have people talking about how a 17-year-old boy beating up a 15-year-old girl was probably justified.  She "fucked around and found out".  She must have deserved it because she was probably bullying him. 

Well... unsurprisingly.... not everybody accepts the idea that his being trans should mean it's OK for him to give her a concussion because she might have hurt his feelings.  So the militant trans-defender dickheads immediately start accusing those people of "hate".  

BTW, you still didn't demonstrate where anybody has said all TG people are like this boy, or that they are more violent.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
1.1.26  Ender  replied to  Jack_TX @1.1.25    last year
never consider the idea that it's not the trans people.  It's the batshit lunatic subset of their defenders

You're right, I won't.

 
 
 
Hallux
PhD Principal
1.2  Hallux  replied to  Vic Eldred @1    last year

LGBT people nine times more likely than non-LGBT people to be victims of violent hate crimes

Gee I wonder why, could it be seeds such as this one which have the sole purpose of driving hatred?

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
1.2.1  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  Hallux @1.2    last year

These kinds of seeds are also why LGBTQ people have a high rate of suicide and attempted suicide, but they're supposedly pro-life.  Yeah, right.  

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
1.2.2  Tessylo  replied to  Hallux @1.2    last year

inciting such animosity against the LGBTQ community essentially puts targets on their backs - including drag queens/performers

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2  devangelical    last year
"A" approached her with a question. After telling "A" she didn't want to speak with her and why, "A" became angry and asked her if she "wanted to fight" before hitting her in the face

kind of reminds me of an incident I witnessed back in the 80's. ultra religious bob the waiter was unhappy with our gay sous chef tony, he yells a gay slur at him during a tirade and tony drags him thru the back door of the kitchen and beats the fuck out of him. then he tosses him into the dumpster. he was still in there whining for help a half hour later when I left. the next time I saw him was when he came in for his last check and his arm was in a sling. I guess he didn't notice that tony was twice his size and forgot about that judge not lest ye be judged stuff. a year or 2 later he ended up eating a pistol after his wife left him for another man. he didn't see that coming either. bummer. 

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @2    last year

If it were me Tony would have had an unfortunate meeting with a baseball bat multiple times. Aluminum preferred- I like the pinging noise it makes when it bounces off bullies heads that have short fuses and over react.

Kind of reminds me of the bullies that harassed me throughout my time in public schools. Small brains, even smaller genitalia, and very short fuses. It took a while for them to process insults; but once it registered in their infinitesimal brains the reaction was always the same. They were great at attacking anyone smaller or different from them. Not so good meeting the business end of a stop sign rounding a corner.

Insults don't give anyone the right to physical assault someone else. If you aren't smart enough to come up with a good comeback- chances are it was deserved.

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
2.1.1  devangelical  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1    last year
Kind of reminds me of the bullies that harassed me throughout my time in public schools

funny how you're not more sympathetic then...

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
2.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  devangelical @2.1.1    last year

To a bully overreacting to being called a name? Why would I be sympathetic to that?

Oh, you thought I was referring to the guy making a gay slur? Don't condone it; and wouldn't do it- but still doesn't give Tony the right to assault him.

I've dealt with more "Tonys" than I can count. They only learn through severe pain (sometimes severe bouts of severe pain) from unknown sources. Once they start living in fear, never knowing when their next beating will come, they tend to stop being bullies. Funny how they don't like being on the receiving end.

Leftists do love their criminals- and their bullies it seems.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  devangelical @2.1.1    last year

yes - alleged victims tend to have empathy

I have yet to see that from a supporter of the former 'president'

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
2.1.5  Tessylo  replied to  Ronin2 @2.1.2    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Hallux
PhD Principal
3  Hallux    last year

Gotta love edited quotes ... /S

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4  Tacos!    last year
After telling "A" she didn't want to speak with her and why

“And why????” What’s the “why?”

There seems to be some undivulged provocation here. I guess it’s completely outside the realm of possibility that “V” was somehow bullying or otherwise being shitty to her assailant because this story just doesn’t want to go there. Kinda sounds like she fucked around and found out.

"V" told police the strength of "A"'s punch left her unable to fight back.

Yeah getting punched will do that. It’s not like the movies where people just slug each other over and over and fun music plays in the background.

One friend reported they tried to help, but they were also struck in the face twice.

So, it was multiple people against one. Sounds fair.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4    last year

The why may be why the person was assaulted, but there is no excuse for assault over words.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1    last year
there is no excuse for assault over words.

Ehhh . . . There might be. I’m willing to bet there’s a long back story to this we haven’t heard yet.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.1    last year
Ehhh . . . There might be.

No. 

Never an excuse to assault someone.

If the girl who got assaulted had struck the assailant first, I doubt your tune would be the same.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.1    last year

you may be right. This "attack" may have been fueled by months of bullying

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.1.4  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.1.2    last year
Never an excuse to assault someone.

Says someone who apparently hasn’t been bullied or discriminated against enough to understand. Try to have an open mind.

If the girl who got assaulted had struck the assailant first, I doubt your tune would be the same.

My tune is that kids - especially high school kids - can be mean little pricks who will lie to protect themselves and their satellites. My tune is also that we don’t yet know the whole story.

Clearly some are downright gleeful that a trans kid got in a fight because they think this single incident is proof of how uniquely dangerous they obviously are - justifying their fear.

Straight cis kids get in fights every day at high schools all over the country and it doesn’t make news, so the anti-trans hysteria crowd is going to pretend that violence never happens. They’re also going to ignore the fact that trans kids go to school every day all over the country and don’t kick someone’s ass.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.4    last year
Says someone who apparently hasn’t been bullied or discriminated against enough to understand. Try to have an open mind.

I know violence is never the answer. I hope one day others will know it too.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
4.1.6  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  Tacos! @4.1.4    last year

Yet, every time there's a student involved school shooting, conservatives are the first to say..."well so and so must have been bullied", but that doesn't count when when its their own are doing the bullying.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.7  Texan1211  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @4.1.6    last year
Yet, every time there's a student involved school shooting, conservatives are the first to say.

Wrong, just so wrong.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.1.8  Jack_TX  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @4.1.6    last year
Yet, every time there's a student involved school shooting, conservatives are the first to say..."well so and so must have been bullied"

Citation?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.1.9  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.1.3    last year
you may be right. This "attack" may have been fueled by months of bullying

And if he wasn't trans, you would make zero excuses for his ass.  Because there are none.  And him being trans doesn't change that.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.8    last year

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.1.11  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.1.9    last year

You got that right!

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tacos! @4    last year

I learned early on in life that if you pick a fight with someone bigger than yourself....you're gonna end up in the nurse's office

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.2.1  Texan1211  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.2    last year
I learned early on in life that if you pick a fight with someone bigger than yourself.

Did you assault someone because you didn't like the words coming out of their mouth?

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3  Sean Treacy  replied to  Tacos! @4    last year

When in doubt, blame the victim.

she was asking for it, right? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.3.1  Tacos!  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3    last year
When in doubt, blame the victim.

I didn’t blame anyone. I said we had incomplete information, and I was keeping an open mind.

she was asking for it, right? 

That may turn out to be true. Are you saying the possibility does not exist?

According to the story, the “aggressor” did not start out wanting to fight. But the “victim” said something and then there was a fight. Those facts do not seem to be in dispute.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.2  Sean Treacy  replied to  Tacos! @4.3.1    last year
I said we had incomplete information, and I was keeping an open mind.

You are rationalizing reasons to justify why a boy  assaulted a girl without any justification  for your speculation other than wishcasting. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.3.3  Tacos!  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.2    last year
without any justification

What evidence do you have that there was no justification?

wishcasting What is it you think I wish for? 

You’re really squirming around a lot to avoid discussing the article. You’d rather talk about me instead.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4.3.4  Sean Treacy  replied to  Tacos! @4.3.3    last year
at evidence do you have that there was no justification?

The lack of any evidence that justifies a boy assaulting a girl in the girls bathroom. It's not my job to rule out all possible events in the universe. If you have evidence that justifies a boy assaulting a girl in a girl's bathroom, I'd be more than happy to evaluate it. Do you have evidence the the girl forced the boy into the girl's  bathroom at knife or gunpoint and threatened to kill him?   Your belief that it exists is not evidence that it does exist 

ally squirming around a lot to avoid discussing the article. 

Really, I thought I was discussing the fact that a 17 year old boy assaulted girl in a girl's bathroom.  I admit that I'm surprised at the compulsive need some have to justify a boy assaulting a girl.  I was raised different in that I was taught there was no justification for a man to beat up a women. But times change. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.3.5  Tacos!  replied to  Sean Treacy @4.3.4    last year
If you have evidence that justifies a boy assaulting a girl in a girl's bathroom, I'd be more than happy to evaluate it.

Here’s what we have:

The student victim, labeled as "V" on the redacted report, told police she was speaking with friends in the girls' bathroom when student "A" approached her with a question. After telling "A" she didn't want to speak with her and why, "A" became angry and asked her if she "wanted to fight" before hitting her in the face. The alleged assailant continued to hit, kick and pull student "V's" hair.

Sounds like she was provoked by something this girl said. I find it curious that the specifics of what was said are not divulged. Perhaps that’s because it was something that she’s not particularly proud of - something she knew she shouldn’t have said. That interpretation may not be exactly what happened, but it does fit the available facts.

The law and common sense recognize the existence of “fighting words” - speech so egregiously offensive that it shocks the conscience and a violent response is almost inevitable. That doesn’t excuse the violence, but it does make it something we can understand. In other words, this didn’t happen for no reason and the “victim” may not be the innocent angel this article’s author would like us to believe she is.

Really, I thought I was discussing the fact that a 17 year old boy assaulted girl in a girl's bathroom.

Not when you’re talking about what I wish for.

I admit that I'm surprised at the compulsive need some have to justify a boy assaulting a girl.

I’m not interested in justifying it. I want to understand it. I find the implication here that it happened because the attacker is trans to be lacking in merit.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.3.6  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @4.3.5    last year
Sounds like she was provoked by something this girl said

If any other 17 yr old boy responded to a 15 yr old girl that way, he'd be in jail.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
4.3.7  Right Down the Center  replied to  Tacos! @4.3.5    last year
but it does fit the available facts.

Actually it is jumping to conclusion when no facts are available. 

I have confidence it will all be sorted out and alot is still unknown, like what transpired before including any complaints lodged against the 15 year old before she was beat up but none of that would justify beating her up.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.3.8  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @4.3.6    last year

If you say so.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.3.9  Tacos!  replied to  Right Down the Center @4.3.7    last year
Actually it is jumping to conclusion

I reached no conclusion, but I can’t control your imagination.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.3.10  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.3.6    last year

To be clear: both are minors, yes? If there no other way to fix this with discretion without exploiting the moment with media exposure and blowing it up to the tune of 75,000 dollars in court. Of course there is, but then where would be the fake outrage?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.3.11  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.3.10    last year
Of course there is, but then where would be the fake outrage?

You seem very dismissive of the warranted outrage over a young girl being assaulted.

 
 
 
Ronin2
Professor Quiet
4.4  Ronin2  replied to  Tacos! @4    last year

Love the way you defend the bully.

If the school wants to discipline the girl for verbal abuse fine. But the boy had no right to physically assault her; or her friend. This wasn't a fair fight- so quit trying to pretend otherwise.

Wouldn't be surprised if this transgender bully ends up receiving some physical retaliation if the school and legal system don't act.

This is taking me back to the not so fun days of my time in public schools. Get out the social and school hierarchy order chart. I am sure the chart has changed with the left's new social order. But one thing will remain the same; people at the bottom prepare for the worst.  

 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.4.1  Tacos!  replied to  Ronin2 @4.4    last year
Love the way you defend the bully.

Lies are not persuasive.

Wouldn't be surprised if this transgender bully ends up receiving some physical retaliation

But that’s ok?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @4    last year
I guess it’s completely outside the realm of possibility that “V” was somehow bullying or otherwise being shitty to her assailant because this story just doesn’t want to go there. Kinda sounds like she fucked around and found out.

You are defending males beating females if they get too mouthy.

That is soooo fucked up.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.1  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5    last year

Why lie?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.2  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.1    last year
Why lie?

Not lying.

"She fucked around and found out"???

What the fuck?  

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.3  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.2    last year
Not lying.

When you say I endorse males beating up females for being too mouthy, you are lying. Period. I don’t endorse people beating up people for being mouthy, as a general matter. But I do understand that words can provoke a fight.

Maybe try not cherry picking people’s comments. I have talked at length about how there may be a complicated back story to this. We know very little about the details of these people or their history. I’m not surprised you chose to misrepresent the full scope of my position so you could “win” at internet.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.4  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.3    last year

Maybe not endorsing, but in posts 4, 4.1, and 4.1.4 you seem to be offering 'explanations' to justify the assault.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.5  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.4    last year
Maybe not endorsing

Definitely not endorsing. Thank you for conceding that much, though.

but in posts 4, 4.1, and 4.1.4 you seem to be offering 'explanations' to justify the assault.

This is a mistake a lot of people make. Analysis, understanding, and explanation are not the same thing as justification. It can help us to decide that an action was justified (self defense, for example), but the inquiry itself is not justification. 

You can always have a “turn the other cheek” philosophy, and that’s fine. I prefer that myself. The reality, though, is that that is not always so easy to live out. That’s why the law can recognize concepts like “fighting words” or the “burning bed” defense.

People who have been victims of long-term bullying or other abuse can snap and act with extreme violence over what can seem like insufficient provocation in the moment - if all we consider is the immediate circumstance.

It’s possible - and I only say “possible” - that this student had been the victim of long term bullying from the student she hit, and maybe from others, as well. Perhaps, peaceful options had been exhausted. Perhaps parents were unsupportive. Maybe the school administrators ignored the problem or were ill equipped to handle it.

It seems to me like it might actually take courage to be vulnerable and walk up to a group of people who maybe don’t like you and try to talk to them. Being rejected and insulted in that moment could be very triggering.

When I see a story so focused on the trans status of the student, with nothing more to explain the situation, I seriously have to consider that there is prejudice at work. Trans students go to school every day and don’t attack people, so there’s no special reason to think that it is inherent in being trans. Is it the testosterone? I don’t see how. Boys go to school every day and don’t beat up girls. Besides, we don’t know anything about this person’s body. For all we know, they’ve been on puberty blockers and were actually the smallest person in the room.

How can thinking people look at this story and just accept the proposition that one student attacked the other because they are trans and therefore just a violent predator? Surely, there must be more going on than just that.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.6  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.3    last year
When you say I endorse males beating up females for being too mouthy, you are lying

I didn't say endorse.  I said defend.

Which is exactly what you're doing.

You are looking for an excuse for this boy beating up girl two years younger than he is.

The ONLY reason you're doing that is because he's in the alphabet club.

If he was not trans, you would not give a fuck about how complicated the backstory is.  

I'm very sure you never said Ray Rice's girlfriend "fucked around and found out".

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.7  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.6    last year
I didn't say endorse.  I said defend.

Either is wrong. Don’t be disingenuous.

You are looking for an excuse for this boy beating up girl two years younger than he is.

This is a lie and you should know better by now as I have explained my purpose in detail repeatedly. I seek to understand the situation at a level beyond the simplistic prejudice of “trans boys are aggressive and dangerous to ‘real’ girls.”

The ONLY reason you're doing that is because he's in the alphabet club.

No, the only reason this is a news story - and the only reason it got seeded - is because this kid is trans. It’s the same kind of prejudice that leads some people to use derogatory terminology like “alphabet club.”

(You’ll likely be offended that I use prejudice to describe something you said, but you probably won’t allow that anyone else could reasonably be offended by “alphabet club”)

If he was not trans, you would not give a fuck about how complicated the backstory is. 

That’s obviously false. I dig into many stories that get seeded that have nothing to do with trans issues. You know better.

I'm very sure you never said Ray Rice's girlfriend "fucked around and found out".

Sometimes it takes two to fight. She did spit in his face, so I would expect at least a return spit. What followed was extreme, though, and we got to see it on video. So, not only were these different situations, but we had a lot more information. Everything I have said here has been about getting more information.

Apparently, without any evidence - and in spite of evidence to the contrary - you think that what happened with minors in the bathroom of this high school is very much like an adult professional football player brutally beating his fiancée.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.5.8  George  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.7    last year
“trans boys are aggressive and dangerous to ‘real’ girls.”

Deflection fail, nobody said that. let's be 100% clear, there is no reason for a 17 year old boy to beat a 15 year old girl, PERIOD!!!!!  I don't care how he identifies. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.9  Texan1211  replied to  George @4.5.8    last year
let's be 100% clear, there is no reason for a 17 year old boy to beat a 15 year old girl, PERIOD!!!!!  I don't care how he identifies. 

Can you even imagine the outrage had the story been about a 17 year old white, Christian male attacking a 15 year old woman of color in the ladies' room?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.10  Jack_TX  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.7    last year
Don’t be disingenuous.

Explain "she fucked around and found out". 

That's what people say when blaming the victim in an attempt to find an excuse for the perpetrator and justify a violent assault.  So if you have some different usage of the phrase, by all means, let's hear it.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
Professor Principal
4.5.11  Trout Giggles  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.10    last year

Nobody should be beating on anybody! I don't care if it's a boy hitting a girl or a girl hitting a boy, etc.

Girls are not all sugar and spice and everything nice. She should have whacked him a few times. At least kicked him in his balls. Girls need to learn to defend themselves against attackers. She may have provoked it, she may not have. But she shouldn't have just laid down and taken it

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.12  mocowgirl  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.5.11    last year
But she shouldn't have just laid down and taken it

From the seeded article, the boy had threatened the girl previously and the cops were called and he was even searched for weapons.

He was 17.  She was 15.  Would they even likely be sharing classroom space?  Why didn't the school take the boy's threats seriously after the police report?  How long between the police incident and the violence?  Days?  Weeks?  Was the violence in retaliation for documenting the threats with the police?  If this was a married couple, the wife is usually in danger after reporting domestic violence.  Could this be on the same level?  

There is very little information available at this time.

I need a lot more information about this before rushing to the conclusion that a 15 year old girl deserved a beating by a 17 year old boy in the girl's restroom.  Hopefully, everyone will have their day in court on this one.  When the facts are made public, then maybe our school systems can learn how to deal with situations like this.

What would she have gained by fighting back (even if she could have)?  A more thorough beating?  Giving the boy an excuse that she was his "equal" in a boxing match?  

What would the victim have gained?

From the seeded content........

The lawsuit also alleges that the transgender student had "made previous threats of violence" against the victim at school and was searched for weapons by police after his threats against the victim were reported "by another student." 
 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.13  Tacos!  replied to  George @4.5.8    last year
there is no reason for a 17 year old boy to beat a 15 year old girl, PERIOD!!!!!  I don't care how he identifies. 

Of course there is. This might not be one of those times, but there are reasons. Self-defense being the most obvious.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.14  Tacos!  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.10    last year

It means I am open to the possibility that she started it somehow. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.15  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.14    last year
It means I open to the possibility that she started it somehow. 

According to her mother, the boy stole from the girl.  The girl told him to keep whatever it was and leave her alone.  

Oklahoma school accused of violating law after teen girl 'severely beaten' by trans student in bathroom (msn.com)
 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.5.16  George  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.13    last year

Seriously? If a 17 year old man can’t get away from a 15 year old girl he is no kind of man….. you may be on to something with the mentally damaged “boy”

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.17  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.12    last year

There is very little information available at this time, indeed. It's incomplete. And so far the only one speaking on behalf of the 17 years old is. . . nobody .  Even as the spotlight is on his trans-MUSCULAR body (which remains to be discovered).

Something is not right in the telling of this for now. Like the lawyer in the FOX News interview segment, I await legal discovery. I hope we hear more about this one. Because right now my intuition is signaling there is more to this than is being 'fought' over in discussion.

Now then with the above covered. It is. . .sad and unfortunate that this happened. Nobody should be causing mental and physical, especially physical harm to anyone, and if this trans-youth has unjustifiable (day in court to determine) to a school girl of any age: Shame on him. Even worse, now the lawyers are involved.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.18  CB  replied to  George @4.5.16    last year

Well George, he is trans-youth to some degree. And for the record, 15 years old girls can be 'fast' and talk a lot of $hit just like a boy or transyouth can. There is too many unanswered questions to conclude anything at this point. But to your point: S/he is trans-youth. Which kind of puts them in league with each other.

This insistence on a political talking point to emphasize the ages (17/15) and boy versus girl imagery is a deliberate attempt to justifiably or justifiably, as the case may turn out, to draw us into his trans-nature being odd, dangerous, and unstable. We don't know that for sure yet. Not from this article.

The account is one-sided (as told by the girls parent/lawyer) and a reporter.

The narrative is incomplete and it has holes in it.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.5.19  George  replied to  CB @4.5.18    last year

No excuses for a biological male beating a female. I don’t care what disorder he suffers from.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.20  Jack_TX  replied to  Trout Giggles @4.5.11    last year
Nobody should be beating on anybody! 

I know, right?

You would think we would need to explain that.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.21  CB  replied to  George @4.5.19    last year

Well I will go you one farther: I don't believe people should be harming one another.  I hope that settles that. What will occur now is a court will determine what happened and fill in the holes that are lacking exposure in this article. Right now, the story sounds SENSATIONAL, in my opinion.

And even you seem to have politics in mind when pushing this narrative of a "biological" 17 years old male (brute) going up against a 'child-like' and reasonably helpless15 years old female (dove).

If the "dove" gets to have an excuse, then the "brute" gets to have an excuse as well.

Finally, where is the other side of the encounter?

Lastly, be careful in how you present this going forward, because as a black male this emphasis on "biological male" trans-female versus cis-female reminds me a lot of a past in the country when black men did not stand a chance because of whom they were up against. Only the characters are different.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.22  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.21    last year
If the "dove" gets to have an excuse, then the "brute" gets to have an excuse as well.

In this context, please be the defense council for the men who burned women at the stake for being witches.

The women's defense would be what?  That they were not witches.

What would be the defense for the men who burned them at the stake?  What would be the defense for the woman who either identified the witches or supported the punishment?

History tells us what people are capable of doing and believing when beliefs are used as a basis for fact.  Are witches real?  If so, should they be put to death because a religious book says so?

Should laws be made based on people's emotions?  Should it be legal to punish people for hurting other people's feelings?  If so, then should Perrie be leveling monetary fines against offenders or notifying the police when someone flags a comment as hurtful in some way?

Please help me understand how it is possible to legislate feelings.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.23  mocowgirl  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.22    last year

I wish everyone was capable of having a rational conversation like this recent one with younger people.  The conversation did not solve anything, but it prompted reasons to have more discussion instead.   In a conversation, if facts don't matter, then how is resolution possible?

Trans Women Pose NO THREAT to Women’s Sports - YouTube
 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.24  Tacos!  replied to  George @4.5.16    last year

I like how 17 is a “man” when it suits people to make him even more evil and scary.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.25  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.24    last year
I like how 17 is a “man” when it suits people to make him even more evil and scary.

Shouldn't he be considered one if he is old enough and mature enough to try and alter his gender?

Or if he decides to assault another, younger minor child?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.26  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.25    last year

If you need to be told that the law defines an 18 year old as an adult, and a 17 year old as a minor, then you aren’t educated enough to be on the computer without supervision.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.27  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.26    last year
f you need to be told that the law defines an 18 year old as an adult, and a 17 year old as a minor,

I definitely never need to be told anything ever by you.

I never said he was an adult, please be an adult and address what I actually wrote instead of what you would have preferred.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.28  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.27    last year
address what I actually wrote

I’ve addressed what you wrote with all the consideration it deserved.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.29  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.28    last year
I’ve addressed what you wrote with all the consideration it deserved.

Well, you just enjoy that fantasy!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.30  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.24    last year
I like how 17 is a “man” when it suits people to make him even more evil and scary.

At what age is it legal to hit other people?

I googled.  I did not find age, but I did find a good article that says it is never legally acceptable to hit someone for words.

Is It Ever Legal to Punch Someone in the Face? | HowStuffWorks

It was the slap heard around the world. When Chris Rock made a joke about Jada Pinkett Smith's shaved head during the telecast of the 94th   Oscars   ceremony March 27, it elicited an eye roll from her and a much more heated reaction from her husband Will. He approached the stage, slapped Rock in the face and then told Rock, "Keep my wife's name out of your ****ing mouth!" Rock didn't retaliate physically nor did he press charges later,   CNN reported . Reaction on social media   was split   between those who applauded Will for defending Jada (who has alopecia) and those who thought he was out of order for his attack on Rock.

Face-punching in movies and TV shows is a well-known cliché. But in real life, clocking someone is not only a great way to break your hand, but also in the majority of cases, illegal. Is there ever a situation in which you are legally justified to pop someone in their mug?

In 2017, we took the question to Micah Schwartzbach, a California criminal defense lawyer and managing editor at   Nolo . In short, the answer is "yes" — but the punch has to be made in self-defense.

"In general, you have to   not   be the aggressor and you have to reasonably believe that force is necessary to protect yourself from some imminent violence," said Schwartzbach. "And on top of that, you have to use a proportionate amount of force."

There are some really important points for distinguishing between a legal and illegal punch. No.1, you can't strike first. That would make you the aggressor. It's hard to argue self-defense when you're literally on the attack.

Second, you can only punch someone if they've already taken a swing at you, or if you believe you're about to be hit. Schwartzbach said that it's also possible to claim self-defense if you punch your attacker while he's winding up to smack you, but you'd need some fast hands.

And third, you can't escalate the fight. If the drunk guy at the bar doesn't like the way you're looking at his girlfriend (yes, another cliché) and shoves you on the shoulder, you're not justified to break a bottle over his head. You're probably not even justified to punch him. Or slap him. Or kick him in the goodies.

"Self-defense applies where the harm is imminent," Schwartzbach explained. "The theory is that you don't have an alternative." The same is true if you're coming to the defense of another person. If you reasonably believe that they're in imminent danger of violence and you have no other alternative, you can step in and start punching.

Fighting Words

What about the " fighting words " argument? Aren't you allowed to defend yourself if someone verbally accosts, provokes or threatens you?

"That's perhaps the most common misconception about self-defense," said Schwartzbach.

Even though "fighting words" aren't protected as free speech, they're still not a legal justification for violence. Schwartzbach said that even if someone threatens you and said they're going to beat you up or kill you, the law doesn't give you the right to slug them.

"It's one thing for it to be 'understandable' that someone threatens to kill you and you punch them in the face," said Schwartzbach. "But if there's no indication that the person was about to harm you in some way and you had time to go talk to the police, you're likely not going to have a legal defense."

Which brings up an important caveat when discussing the "legality" of anything. While criminal law regarding self-defense is pretty consistent across the United States, the enforcement and interpretation of the law varies state by state, precinct by precinct and case by case.

Here's the tricky part, though. Even if you are acquitted of criminal charges for punching someone, you can still be sued in civil court. If the person you punched sustained a serious injury, missed work or suffered psychological trauma from the incident, he can sue you for damages. You won't see that one in the movies.
 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.31  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.30    last year
At what age is it legal to hit other people?

At any age, if you have a legally acceptable reason, like self-defense.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.32  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.31    last year
At any age, if you have a legally acceptable reason, like self-defense.

Read what I cited.  It is not legal to hit first and never because a person doesn't like someone else's looks or words.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.33  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.31    last year
At any age, if you have a legally acceptable reason, like self-defense.

In this instance, was the male acting in self-dense?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.34  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.31    last year
At any age, if you have a legally acceptable reason, like self-defense.

The 17 years-old male in the story didn't employ self-defense. 

He can not be tried as an adult in Oklahoma for this particular crime.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.35  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.32    last year

I know what you cited, but I don’t know why you went to the trouble. I never said it was legal to hit someone because they don’t like their looks or words.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.36  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.33    last year
In this instance, was the male acting in self-dense?

It doesn’t sound like it, but I never said they were.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.37  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.36    last year
It doesn’t sound like it, but I never said they were.

Okay.  Thanks for the clarification. This has been a long discussion.  I can't remember who said what.

Maybe the people who believe that words are justification for violence against others will learn something about the law before they learn firsthand from experience what boundaries are.

At what age should children be taught to not use violence to ease emotional overload so they will have coping skills as an adult to handle rejection?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.38  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.34    last year
He can not be tried as an adult in Oklahoma for this particular crime.

But the school can be sued for not enforcing state law that resulted in bodily harm to a student which is why there is a civil suit?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.39  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.37    last year
At what age should children be taught to not use violence to ease emotional overload so they will have coping skills as an adult to handle rejection?

Ah, yes. If only children just simply did what they were taught.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.40  mocowgirl  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.39    last year
Ah, yes. If only children just simply did what they were taught.

What does that mean? 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.41  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.38    last year

I do not know for sure but surely the school bears some responsibility as it happened at school.

I did look up OK law and found 17 year olds may be charged as adults for specific, limited offenses. Assault is not one of them.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.42  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.22    last year

HI Mocowgirl, I'm sorry but I am not sure what you are addressing in the context of your comment (above).  The gist of my comment 4.5.21 (in answer to George's comment) is this:

"If the "dove" gets to have an excuse, then the "brute" gets to have an excuse as well. Finally,
where is the other side of the encounter?

We've only heard from one side of the issue that involves a 15 years old girl and a 17 years old (trans)boy. And, the issue that is being 'drilled down' on in the article is the transboy being mean to a girl or several girls. And a civil lawsuit for 75,000 thereabouts being leveled. We don't know if the parents of the transboy will fight it (or the school district), or have any idea of how this transboy will defend himself.

I don't know what happened. But it is clear to me that this telling of the narrative, involving politics (likes and dislikes) of transyouth, is highly charged at this point.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.43  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.42    last year
I don't know what happened.

If you read the article and do google searches, there is enough information to know without one doubt that the male physically assaulted a female in a girls restroom.

There is no side that legally justifies physical assault over words or being rejected - which is probably why we will never hear from him or his parents since the civil lawsuit is against the school and not the parents and boy.  As a minor, any charges against the boy will probably be sealed and his name never legally released in standard news media unless he continues to assault people as a legal adult.

Do you know of a moral reason that justifies physical assault over words or being rejected?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.44  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.23    last year

Mocowgirl, warning I have only watched 12 minutes plus of this video with more than 12 minutes left to go as I have a project to complete today. That being said.

Let me get right to this point.

First. There are superficial social constructs some homosexuals use while 'fonding' around with each other such as calling themselves, "girl" and using the female pronoun, "she."

Second. There is the social construct that people who dress the part of women more than their male counterparts do, because they favor their feminine 'side.'

Three.  Then, there is medical science. Medical science is 'confounding' what we know about sex, gender, through surgeries, hormone usage, and the end result is something EMERGENT.

Four.  A male who to the naked eye is appearing as female will have a splendid time living life as a female, but one hell of a time living life as a male.

It is the sort of thing that happens when a male becomes a castrated eunuch (not sure if there is a female counterpart to this - can't look it up right now); what is he after his body parts began to soften (and whatever effects accompany the processes of the eunuch mind)?

A transperson is medically INDUCED changes which may have a significant impact on his/her psyche and physical ability. Therefore, the 'RIGOROUS' two gender categories simply can't contain such people. That is why we see the categories expanding and sociology attempting to keep up with it all.

More later. . . running.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.45  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.44    last year
A transperson is medically INDUCED changes which may have a significant impact on his/her psyche and physical ability.

Thanks for the reply.

It does not change their DNA. 

Nor does using artificial hormones mean the person experiences life the same way that people with biological hormones do.  It may or may not be close to the same.  We don't know.  This is the feeling realm where there is really no way to measure feelings.

So while, I have no desire to legislate consensual sexual relationships between adults, that does not mean that biological male and females and chemically produced male and females are the same, or even in the same ballpark as same either physically or emotionally.  

Bottom line, if a person changes what they can about their biological sex, it does not mean that they will be accepted as always having been their altered sex because their bodies cannot perform the same functions as biological males and females.  How their minds really compare is anybody's guess.

I do know that males, who are not castrated, but posing as female and wanting sexual relationships with biological females is likely to be the males who have the most difficult time ever finding a female friend, much less a female sex partner.  Lesbians don't do men.  Heterosexual females most likely are not going to be sexually attracted to a man in a dress.  Just my observation of heterosexual females as a heterosexual female.  So if the male doesn't learn to handle a whole lot of rejection from females, his life will likely be very frustrating.  He has to learn that no one is required to spend their life trying to understand something they may not be capable of understanding.

Not being flip in any way, but human behavior is very confusing to biological females, also.  We don't understand the average biological male because if we did, the majority of us would likely remain single all of our life.   The internet is filled with discussions about abuse and betrayal.  Teenage girls may have already watched their mother or sisters suffer through dysfunctional relationships and are wise enough to have learned what they need to avoid to protect themselves from relationships that will not be good for them.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.46  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.45    last year

Good comment.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.47  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.45    last year

Now can I ask you to 'walk with me' for while. . . .

. . . I want ask a series of questions and get your 'feel' or if I may. . .logic on this.

1.  Why do you think a boy wants to imagine/become a (trans-)girl?

2.  When do you think a boy want so use a female bathroom (with other girls)?

3.  What happens to the trans-female who is REQUIRED by state law to "use the bathroom of her born sex"?

4.   If one is 'ordealing' to appear in public as a girl or woman. . . how is the facade for a lack of a better word sustained. .  .if she is seen coming and going out of male REQUIRED places?

5.  She can not maintain the facade, she will be exposed. She will find herself explaining 'who/what/why' to everyone 'endlessly.' It would defeat the (costly) purposes of becoming a trans-female (to be outed on a routine basis).

1.   Number 5 above is what the conservatives want for 'her.' To be defeated. To continue at a loss.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.48  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.46    last year

CB,

So often, I wish that the world was a fairer place for everyone.  I wouldn't know where to start, but I do think that if we all work together to make it a safer place for everyone that we should all benefit because when people feel safe they can be more accepting of others.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.49  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.45    last year

This sports dilemma issue for trans-females is complex to remedy, because the main reason a person is trans-female is to appear in nearly every sense to be a woman and . . . in the case of sports. . . a woman needing to use her physical talents-you've guessed it as a woman. To compete against boys would 'out' her. To compete in an all TRANS LEAQUE would 'out' her—effectively self-defeating the purposes of being trans and importantly fails to satisfy.

This is a tough one. (Medical) Science may hold the key to a solution. . .someday.

Incidentally, to dial into the male side of this: Transmales with sports potential are faced with a similar set of issues.

Apparently, (it is rumored) there are trans-MALES who are already using MENS rooms on a routine basis. I remember when I first heard about this/that: Frankly, I was 'horrified' and felt (as a homosexual man) that I would not like it. Now then, I have met several women whom have transitioned to males right before my eyes with full facial hair and all and broader shoulders. It have gotten over the 'icky' feeling of seeing them in the men's room.

Because I realize they are seeking the same thing I am seeking ACCEPTANCE in a harsh world.

Finally this, I have RESEARCHED the hybrid trans-male who still has 'lady-parts' below. It is. . .interesting to say the least. All things being equal. . .I wonder (to myself and here aloud) if the experiment of a homosexual male and a trans-male with lady parts could be something that could work for a lifetime. :)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.50  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.48    last year

Yes, it begins with inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity. There are people (traditionalists) who love to keep the country and the world the same as it was in its inception - a nation, world for the few (in majority) and by doing so they go out of their way to exploit and damn the rest of humanity to difficult, unfulfilled lives as only partially fulfilling what ever destiny they may be intended to (be allowed by the 'majority' or in this country an increasingly strong, aggressive, and vocal traditionalist minority) to accomplish.

It strikes me there are traditionalists born in every generation who do not wish and fight 'for life' judging certain groups of people unlike themselves-and otherwise harmless-to ever be anything that is different from themselves.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.5.51  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.5.50    last year
There are people (traditionalists) who love to keep the country and the world the same as it was in its inception

When was the world’s inception?

a nation, world for the few (in majority) and by doing so they go out of their way to exploit and damn the rest of humanity to difficult,

Exactly, the pace of change has nothing to do with it, they are just despicable people.

unfulfilled lives as only partially fulfilling what every destiny they were intended to (be allowed) to accomplish

Huh?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.52  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.47    last year
Now can I ask you to 'walk with me' for while. . . .

. . . I want ask a series of questions and get your 'feel' or if I may. . .logic on this.

1.  Why do you think a boy wants to imagine/become a (trans-)girl?

2.  When do you think a boy want so use a female bathroom (with other girls)?

3.  What happens to the trans-female who is REQUIRED by state law to "use the bathroom of her born sex"?

4.   If one is 'ordealing' to appear in public as a girl or woman. . . how is the facade for a lack of a better word sustained. .  .if she is seen coming and going out of male REQUIRED places?

5.  She can not maintain the facade, she will be exposed. She will find herself explaining 'who/what/why' to everyone 'endlessly.' It would defeat the (costly) purposes of becoming a trans-female (to be outed on a routine basis).

1.   Number 5 above is what the conservatives want for 'her.' To be defeated. To continue at a loss.

Number 1. Define what it is to be a girl and why a boy could imagine they were one.  What is the criteria for thinking like a girl?

Number 2.  If a boy is an intact teenager that is sexually attracted to girls, I shouldn't have to explain why he wants to be in a female only space where he can interact with girls.  If he just wanted to use a bathroom, he shouldn't be in the girls' restroom because he wouldn't need to be.

Number 3. This is a male education issue and should be treated as one.  Males need to be taught that they don't get to bully or physically attack other males - including the ones wearing clothing usually associated with females.  If males can't be taught not to be violent to other males, this is not a female problem and should not be made a female problem.

Number 4. People should not be living a facade.  People, who cannot or will not be openly who they are, have never given anyone the opportunity to know them. Plus, how are they going to date?  People, who are friends with the facade, may not take too kindly to "Surprise, here's who I really am!"  If a person doesn't have the strength to present themselves to the world, don't expect others to fight their battles for them when they won't fight their own.  The very first battle is to learn to accept, love and validate self before expecting others to do.

Our society needs to grow up.  If society is going to take children to drag shows, they can surely adapt to people using the appropriate restrooms for their biological sex.  

Number 5.  See Number 4.

Feel free to question me on any thought I expressed.  My thoughts are on how I have had to take endless criticism for "making waves" from before I ever entered grade school.  I found the freedom to be me meant that I had to be willing to be my own best friend and quit expecting anyone to ever agree with me regardless of how many "facts" I could introduce into a conversation.  I also learned to avoid having any meaningful conversations with people who based their decisions on "feelings" because I am just not wired to understand them on a level that doesn't leave both of us frustrated most of the time.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.53  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.49    last year
a woman needing to use her physical talents-you've guessed it as a woman. To compete against boys would 'out' her. To compete in an all TRANS LEAQUE would 'out' her—effectively self-defeating the purposes of being trans and importantly fails to satisfy.

A male is not a female.  Claiming it is a fact does not make it a fact.

This applies to everyone -----I will repeat people should not be living their life as a facade as something they are not.  They are lying to themselves and they are lying to the people around them. 

No one likes a liar.  Who wants to be friends with a facade? 

This is no different than being duped by a covert narcissist.  The truth eventually comes out and it is devastating to find out the truth that the person you loved & trusted never existed - never.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.54  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.50    last year
Yes, it begins with inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity.

Inclusion does not involve biological males in women's restrooms, locker rooms, and sports.  It is especially ludicrous when said males are sexually attracted to females.  We wouldn't allow heterosexual males in women's restrooms, locker rooms and sports.    Trans woman wants sex with females.  Heterosexual male wants sex with females.  Where is the difference that makes one acceptable in women's restrooms, locker rooms and sports and the other is not? 

Tran women are males.  They are not equal to females except in a world that embraces facades over reality.

Diversity?  As having a society that recognizes it should legislate adults' consexual sex lives?  I agree.  Diversity as saying that males are females based on feelings?  I need facts it is possible that males without ovaries and female DNA can experience the same emotions that women do....and furthermore why they should ever be grouped with women as long as they have a penis.  If they truly "feel" like a woman, they wouldn't want one.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.55  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.52    last year
Number 1. Define what it is to be a girl and why a boy could imagine they were one.  What is the criteria for thinking like a girl?

Forgive me, it is not a trick question. I want your take on it. I know mine (as a homosexual male who has been so since my youth). And yes, there was once upon a time that had I a serious medical opportunity in my youth to transition to female. . . all things being equal. . . I might have done it. I certain considered it afar off! That is how strong my desires (then and may be even now) to be love, wanted, needed, and depended on by a male. (A song comes to mind here:

The Main Ingredient - Just don't want to be lonely 1974 LYRICS

I am still looking/not looking at this point for a lifetime for that man in a heterosexual world that has surpassed my youth, middle-age, and now senior years. Not sure if that answers your question about criteria.

On that question. . . I can only say this (yes, it's a puzzling back and forth of being male and female for me): In high school, I knew a fellow who thought like a girl so much so that he wore girls' halter tops everyday to high school. . .I knew him well and he had the audacity to be called, "Butterfly"

(Butterfly if you're out there-shout out!).

Butterfly wore girls pants, wore perfume, lip gloss, and even danced 'like a girl' and this was back in the day! Basically he existed as a girl. . . in his teen years. And yes, he was accepted (I want to say) by all. I never saw him verbally abused by anyone. To be clear, Butterfly did not go to my high school, but we had years of association together.

I never fully understood him being and conducting himself with that kind of liberality. So what am I saying?

I might have become a transperson if it was possible to do so - but, since it wasn't possible. . . I just stuck and found what satisfaction I could as a homosexual male-attire and all!

I have no understanding of the CRITERIA Butterfly was using to be a girl!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.56  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.54    last year
Trans woman wants sex with females.  Heterosexual male wants sex with females.  Where is the difference that makes one acceptable in women's restrooms, locker rooms and sports and the other is not? 

? I am not sure we are discussing the same set of issues. That said I have been posting several videos of a transfemale (up top only s/he says) named Flame Monroe who has sex with women and has two biological children to boot. . .so I do know of what you speak. To me that is another form of diversity. And it goes without saying that Flame Monroe wants inclusion.

Check this out: Caution: Language.

Flame Monroe on How The LGBTQIA+ Community Be Tripping

There is some reality talk in the video and then in another part of the presentation. . .he talks about his kids and their two mothers. . . and his sex life with them.

I, of course, have not been acquainted with this type of Queen/transwoman before. . . I still find her/him shocking (a bit) to today. But, she/he is making gets a lot of airtime on black male production radio shows. And that is saying something about INCLUSION!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.57  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.54    last year

Well, we have all got to (continue) coexisting somehow. We have to manage acceptance or we end up continuing the past 'traditions" which only work for a few (majority) and others are just ordealing through their youth, adult life, middle age, seniority, and finally death. Inclusion is the way. We have got to find a way to let people who are doing no harm live their lives in our country to the fullest. (It has not happened satisfactorily yet.)

This sports dilemma in transfemale/cis female sports is the latest test of our ability to solve a difficult question brought on my medical science.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.58  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.55    last year

Loneliness is at epidemic proportions in the US according to some news items I have read.  I don't doubt it because marriage is at an all-time low in the US (and other countries). 

According to reports on "happiness" that I have read - the happiest women are single without children.  The happiest couples are those who have never had children.  The unhappiest/unhealthiest people are single men.  

My thoughts on this are there are valid reasons why women are staying single rather than risk their sanity and health in bad relationships.  If they find a compatible companion, it's fine and if they don't, it's fine.  This means that males are having more and more difficulty find a mate to put up with them if they are emotionally needy or abusive.  Women (of any age) should not be expected to be men's counselors, mommies, or punching bags.

I've known several lesbians since I was in high school.  To date, I don't know of any of them maintaining a lasting friendship much less a marriage.

As far as homosexual men, there's only been a couple that have ever discussed their relationships with me.  One had found a lifelong companion and married him and seemed content.  The other was the most talented hair stylist I've ever had.  I couldn't really afford him so our association was brief.  He had moved to my area from Dallas because his boyfriend had beaten the literal crap out of him and he fled Dallas to save his life.  He was a charming, charismatic fellow who had had the misfortune of being in a relationship with a very jealous man.  I haven't seen him in 15 years, but occasionally I think of him and hope he finally found the right companion.  

Relationships are difficult and unless both people are emotionally healthy, it is probably best to avoid them altogether unless the goal is to be abused.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.59  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.56    last year
? I am not sure we are discussing the same set of issues.

I am talking about teen girls being forced to share intimate spaces with males who want to fuck them.   I don't think I can make it any clearer.

So the question stands why should that be legal just because a male says he is a teen girl despite the fact that he is a teen boy who wants to fuck girls?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.60  CB  replied to  CB @4.5.56    last year

Addendum: Medical science is fulfilling a need. By creating phenoms of a sort. That is, making it possible for certain males and females to live out their dreams. But of course, the 'devil' is in the details. As Flame Monroe is a comedian, s/he has halted her full transition for private reasons and still sleeps with women and lives to tell jokes about it: The comedian way, I guess.

But, generally speaking, most of these transpeople want to be taken seriously as either males or females -which they are not before transitioning. But, Flame Monroe remains an example of your concern, nevertheless. Though, I have no reason to suspect s/he is attacking anyone. Yes! S/he does use the lady's restroom.

Hey! Flame Monroe goes to talk shows and offers keen insights on the trans experience, maybe s/he could solve the sports world trans/cis problem?

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.61  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.60    last year
which they are not before transitioning. 

They are not after transitioning either. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.62  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.60    last year
But, generally speaking, most of these transpeople want to be taken seriously as either males or females -which they are not before transitioning.

Even after transitioning, the male is not the same as a biological female and will likely have difficulty finding a heterosexual male who will be able to mentally equate them as being a woman.  All the surgery and artificial chemicals in the world does not change a male into a biological female.  It can create a reasonable facade that the trans can identify as who they really are.  The heterosexual male's brain will have to have wired to accept that a male can really be female because of chemicals and surgery.

Heterosexual females and trans males don't seem like much of a possibility of friendship or sexual relationship.

None of this is about acceptance or not acceptance.

It is just how nature has wired the heterosexual brain through millions of years of evolution so we reproduce for the survival of the species.

Because of birth control and the options to satisfy biological needs for sex, we are moving away from the desire for sex for reproductive reasons.  This may cause a re-wiring of heterosexual brains to be more accepting of satisfying sexual needs with partners that previously our brains rejected as unacceptable.

I really don't know, but evolution has a policy of use it or lose it, so in a few generations, anything is possible.

Or AI will become intelligent, decide that humans are not worthy as existing, and become our overlords.  Some people are saying it is not only possible, but likely.

With that, I need to call it a night.  Pleasant Dreams.  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.63  CB  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.39    last year
At what age should children be taught to not use violence to ease emotional overload so they will have coping skills as an adult to handle rejection?

Rejection? As in unrequited affection? I don't know that this is the issue with these two individuals. I don't get that from the article.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.64  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.43    last year
Do you know of a moral reason that justifies physical assault over words or being rejected?

I don't believe in people physically harming one another.Though, I know these things happen often in the real world when tempers flare up. I don't know that this is  a case of unrequited love or affection.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.65  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.52    last year
Number 2.  If a boy is an intact teenager that is sexually attracted to girls, I shouldn't have to explain why he wants to be in a female only space where he can interact with girls.  If he just wanted to use a bathroom, he shouldn't be in the girls' restroom because he wouldn't need to be.

The article says this is a transgendered 17 years old. I don't read where s/he is sexually attracted to girls or the girls involved in this incident.

I would ask you consider that she is in the girl's bathroom because of being trans-female. (And the bathroom is appropriate in such a case.)

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.66  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.59    last year

Well now. . . where does it say in the article that anybody is thinking or was thinking about sex or that sexual violence occurred?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
4.5.67  Ender  replied to  CB @4.5.65    last year

You are wasting your time CB. They will only see what they want to.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.68  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.63    last year
Rejection? As in unrequited affection? I don't know that this is the issue with these two individuals. I don't get that from the article.

As in rejection of acknowledging they exist for any reason is what I meant.  The victim's mother stated that her daughter was frightened of the boy and told him to leave her alone.   That was in the video I posted of the victim's mother and her lawyer talking about the reasons the civil suit was filed.

The 17 year old boy flat refused to leave the 15 year old alone according to the victim's mother and her lawyer.  The 17 year old boy threatened the 15 year old girl with bodily harm the week before he assaulted her in the girls' bathroom.  That is why the police were called and searched him for weapons the week before the assault happened.

The 17 year old boy would not accept that the 15 year old girl had rejected wanting to know him for any reason.

Those are the known facts to date that I have found on the internet and posted on this seed somewhere.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.69  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.66    last year
Well now. . . where does it say in the article that anybody is thinking or was thinking about sex or that sexual violence occurred?

The article did not say so.  This conversation is about trans rights and what trans people want.

You are the one that is pushing that is safe for teenage girls to have intact teenage males in teenage female spaces.  

If these teenage boys (claiming they are really girls) want to have sex, who are they going to have sex with - males or females?  

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.70  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.65    last year
I would ask you consider that she is in the girl's bathroom because of being trans-female. (And the bathroom is appropriate in such a case.)

No, the girls' bathroom is not appropriate for an intact male.

This is a male issue and should be handled as such.  There is no reason that people with a penis should not be using the same restroom.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
4.5.71  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.68    last year

Keep believing fox news, that's the ticket...

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.72  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.61    last year

Well of course you would say that because it is consistent with your TRADITIONAL worldview. In the case of McCowGirl I will admit to be being a bit surprised at her holding firm to a traditional value on this complex issue. BTW, beyond the world of bathrooms (which can be remedied by UNISEX bathrooms) and sports competition. . . women are coaching male (football/basketball) sports and serving in the military on ships at sea and in the Army (including ground forces). Do you suppose that military institution is inclusive, equitable/equality, and diverse?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.73  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.70    last year
No, the girls' bathroom is not appropriate for an intact male. This is a male issue and should be handled as such.  There is no reason that people with a penis should not be using the same restroom.

I wish everyone could be so sane.

What is wrong with people?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.74  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.73    last year
What is wrong with people?

Besides being egotistical, self-centered, delusional, narcissistic, sadistic, masochistic, infantile, homicidal, suicidal and sometimes violent?  I really don't have a clue.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.75  Tacos!  replied to  CB @4.5.63    last year

So many assumptions happening all based on the trans identification. Heck, the story wouldn’t even exist without that.

But don’t say there’s prejudice at work. That would be rude. /s

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.76  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.75    last year

Have you never, ever seen a story about older minor males attacking younger minor females?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
4.5.77  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.76    last year

What if I have? What if I haven’t? If you have a point, just make it.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.78  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.77    last year

At this point, I think explaining it would prove futile.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.79  arkpdx  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.78    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.80  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.69    last year
The article did not say so.  This conversation is about trans rights and what trans people want. You are the one that is pushing that is safe for teenage girls to have intact teenage males in teenage female spaces.  

Nope, I did not ask about sex in my comment:

CB: 4.5.47  "2.  When do you think a boy wants so use a female bathroom (with other girls)? "

Your reply to the question I asked:

McCowgirl: 4.5.52 

"Number 2.  If a boy is an intact teenager that is sexually attracted to girls, I shouldn't have to explain why he wants to be in a female only space where he can interact with girls.  If he just wanted to use a bathroom, he shouldn't be in the girls' restroom because he wouldn't need to be. "

If these teenage boys (claiming they are really girls) want to have sex, who are they going to have sex with - males or females?

My train of thought is on the transperson needing to use the "facilities" in some similar manner as any girl or woman would:

1.  To freshen up.

2.  A safe space to 'purge' their bowels.

3. Chit-chat/talk with other females.

4  Whatever girls do when boys are not around.

My comment and reason for asking the question had absolutely nothing to d with transfemales "following" cis girls around for sex! Additionally, I did not read this article as stating if this 'man' as they referred to him is "intact" sexually male or not! It simply says he is transgendered (female).

(Sorry this took so long to get out: I was out nearly all day Wednesday, June 7th!)

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.81  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.80    last year
My train of thought is on the transperson needing to use the "facilities" in some similar manner as any girl or woman would:

1.  To freshen up.

2.  A safe space to 'purge' their bowels.

3. Chit-chat/talk with other females.

4  Whatever girls do when boys are not around.

I gave my thoughts as a woman on the subject.  You have given your thoughts as a man.  

I doubt that we will ever agree on the subject because as a woman I know that males are not females and I don't want to share my restrooms, locker rooms or sports with males.

It is the females who have the right to choose who shares their spaces.  

The males, who want to live life pretending to be a female, are very unique and should have their own safe spaces and competitive sports.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.82  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.52    last year
CB: 1.  Why do you think a boy wants to imagine/become a (trans-)girl? McCowgirl:   Number 1. Define what it is to be a girl and why a boy could imagine they were one.  What is the criteria for thinking like a girl?

You answered my question-with a question, in my opinion. If you did answer it , my apologies, because it may be 'lost' in the stack. I attempted to answer yours and. . . I now think my answer fell short (during a long drive and some time to reflect on it).

Let me try again now:

Define what it is to be a girl and why a boy could imagine they were one.

1. To be girl/woman means any combination of these: child birth, XX chromosomes, natural lubrication in her sexual organ, natural breasts from which she might  breastfeed, a womb, meneses, - exclusively.

2.  I don't know why a boy imagines he can 'manufacture' and manifest (medically here and now) any of the changes in bullet 1.

Thus, it should NOT be a boy's or man's 'endgame" who transitions into a medical science induced female (in some manner, shape, or fashion) to 'best' a girl or woman at being female. Because there really is no competition. Especially since cis-females are historically good at being who/what they are.

3. I would think a girl/woman has to think: 1. About her breasts, vagina, womb, hormone levels, ability to carry and deliver a properly birthed child through her birthing canal or by caesarean section. Likely several or many other concerns exclusively to being a girl/woman that a 'made' female does not encounter internally.

I'd like to think I did a better 'job' of answering your question/s this time around. Perhaps, now you might answer mind (HINT: I kind of clarified my number 1 recently with a recent comment about why a trans-female might enter a girls restroom (or go into girl's sports team) apart from wanting sex.)

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
4.5.83  mocowgirl  replied to  CB @4.5.82    last year

So as a man, you have no idea how a female feels or thinks. 

I would like the males, claiming that they are female, to explain what they feel makes them a female.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.84  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.83    last year

Isn't it obvious. As somebody here has been saying (not specifically you alone) -including the video you posted 4.5.23 Trans Women Pose NO THREAT to Women’s Sports - YouTube : If it is true that there can only be two sexes, then trans-females are partially equipped to be females. As they 'forfeit' their privilege to be proper males.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.85  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.62    last year
All the surgery and artificial chemicals in the world does not change a male into a biological female.  It can create a reasonable facade that the trans can identify as who they really are.  The heterosexual male's brain will have to have wired to accept that a male can really be female because of chemicals and surgery.

A facade works. A 'made' vagina works. "Made' breasts work for heterosexual men and women. So yes, I agree, it's a positive illusion. But, in order for it to work (and satisfy) it must be treated as real (even though in private it can be discovered). For example, my understanding is 'made' vagina's do not lubricate well or at all (lubricant must be applied) and similarly 'made vaginas' have to be kept stretched to an appropriate size using a type of dildo.

Because of birth control and the options to satisfy biological needs for sex, we are moving away from the desire for sex for reproductive reasons.  This may cause a re-wiring of heterosexual brains to be more accepting of satisfying sexual needs with partners that previously our brains rejected as unacceptable.

Good point! Really. I really don't know why some boys and men find trans-females exciting, other than they first are attracted to their appearances and personalities. It could be as the saying goes: There is somebody 'born' for everybody. Because I do know and have seen men who 'dedicate' themselves to men who wear drag. It has to be something about the look, shape, personality, and especially mannerisms of the queen or trans-female.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.86  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.70    last year

How do you feel or reason that a trans-female with bottom surgery should be treated when it comes to the girls/ladies restroom?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.87  CB  replied to  Tacos! @4.5.75    last year

It's traditional thinking about categories. By the same token, a trans-female does not wish to explain and reexplain and reexplain to ad nauseam her 'condition' (and any foibles that happen) should a feminine boy with breasts, wide hips, and makeup come walking into a male locker-room, male shower, or is forced to compete with males only. You can imagine the stares, wagging tongues, rumors,  and those invisible "question marks" that will undoubtedly pop up over the heads of many in the respective audiences! 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.88  CB  replied to  mocowgirl @4.5.81    last year
I doubt that we will ever agree on the subject because as a woman I know that males are not females and I don't want to share my restrooms, locker rooms or sports with males.

That is your choice. It does mean that were I to follow your lead, I would REJECT trans-males in male sports (without giving them a proper chance to work through several generations of the hard issues facing them). That is not inclusion. It is not diversity. It is not equality. I am forced to state that it would present me as narrow-minded. And not as someone who respects our differences enough to at least try to bring us together. Especially, when I know there are people who do not wish science 'well' and/or do not respect the sciences. (I don't wish to be a part of any 'science denier' grouping.)

To be clear, that 'last' sentence is not directed at you. It is directed at those who exploit these difficult complex issues for their agenda's sake and to exploit those they love to keep in abeyance through otherizing them. That is, keeping 'those people' in suppression  and secondary citizen status in their native land.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.89  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.88    last year
That is not inclusion. It is not diversity. It is not equality.

Of course it is.  It's important to remember that trans people are not the only ones in the equation.  Focusing solely on their situation is not diversity.

I am forced to state that it would present me as narrow-minded.

No, it presents you as having common sense and rationality.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.90  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.89    last year

Excluding transpeople from the "equation" is most definitely not diversity, inclusion, or equality. Any solution, besides trans-people of both sexes SQUATTING in the halls between two "open" restrooms that males and females have exited - and, NOT being able to compete as either a male or a female?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.91  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.90    last year
Excluding transpeople from the "equation" is most definitely not diversity, inclusion, or equality.

I don't think they should be excluded.  I think they should play sports with the boys.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.92  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.91    last year

Besides being a traditionalist-Why? Feel free to take your time explaining, please.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.93  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.92    last year
Besides being a traditionalist-Why? Feel free to take your time explaining, please.

Physics.  Because they possess physical advantages that make it unfair for them to compete against women.

We created women's sports specifically to give them a place to compete because in most sports they are physically unable to ever get good enough to compete with the men.  Allowing trans people to compete in that category defeats the entire purpose of having women's sports in the first place.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.94  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.93    last year

Explain the physics involved in a male taking female hormones and any accompanying surgeries which denature or limit the production of testosterone and compare that fe/male to an unaffected male. A 'weakened' male is not going to measure up against other males qualitatively or quantitatively in sports.

So what do you do with transfemales and transmales athletes if you can not pair them with their "cis" sex, but politically are uncomfortable pairing them with their newly acquired sex?

What do you do?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.5.95  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.5.94    last year
Explain the physics involved in a male taking female hormones and any accompanying surgeries

Did you mean, “Explain the biology…”?

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.96  arkpdx  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.5.95    last year
"Explain the biology…”

[deleted]

Biology has a absolute definition of what a human man and woman are. Those definition go against their wishes so they just ignore them. 

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.97  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.96    last year

. I'm sure you have the time since you are interceding.  This should be easy for you: Define what a man is.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.98  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.97    last year

do you really not know?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.99  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.97    last year

According to some liberals, a man is a non-birthing person.

hope that helps!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.100  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.99    last year

That comment is not clear to me.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.101  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.100    last year

what part isn't clear to you specifically, maybe I can explain it to you.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.102  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.101    last year

a man is a non-birthing person. Elaborate on this, please.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.103  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.97    last year

A man is a human male. He has an X and Y chromosome pair. He has a scrotum that contains two male sex organs or testicles. He has a penis. He also has a prostate gland. How much more of a description do you need?

[deleted]

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.104  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.103    last year

Let me deal with your vitriol first: I know what a woman is. I know what a transsexual is. I know what a man is.

Second: As for a man. . . he may have two testes or only one testicle due to birth or surgical removal. He may have no testicles due to surgical castration.

Third, he will have a prostate gland and women will have another set of glands similarly considered/recognized (somewhat).

Finally, when a man has "modifications" surgery to his "top and bottom" he has effectively changed the superficial and hormonal behaviors of his body to simulate and imitate the female body (similarly women can alter their bodies to simulate the male body) through medical science.

At this level of play only a fool would insist on calling that 'female' a man; and that 'man' a female, respectively. It would be taking the position of a hardcore, but sometimes adorable, brute from a rapidly vanishing world of medical and scientific progress.

Progress that is designed to help some people live and love even as other people have done so for thousands of generations. Conservatives don't have to like what other people do-when it goes against their beliefs or worldview, but you can't keep RUINING PEOPLE'S JOY for the sake of conservative passions.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.105  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.104    last year
I know what a woman is... I know what a man is. 

From your comment I sincerely doubt that is a fact. I have yet to see you define what a man or a woman is. That's ok though, neither can you liberal brethren. 

changed the superficial and hormonal behaviors

Superficially changing something does not change what it is only it's appearance and except for no longer having tested to produce testosterone, having bottom surgery does not change the amount of female hormones he produces. It only produces something that looks like a vagina but if left alone will close and be nonfunctional. It takes more than having long hair, wearing make up and having boobs to be a woman. Lower surgery of female to male is even less usable. It produces a "penis" that is too small to work sexually or one that can not get hard without a pump and has no sexual feelings. Also a man can not get pregnant and give birth to a baby. He doesn't have the correct parts. Women however do and that is who gets pregnant. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.106  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.104    last year
live and love even as other people have done so for thousands of generations.

Tell me what civilizations have engaged in transgenderism. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
4.5.107  Kavika   replied to  arkpdx @4.5.106    last year
what civilizations have engaged in transgenderism. 

Chinese, Greek, Indian, Egyption, and Roman to name a few. Almost every culture/civilization has engaged in transgenderism. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.108  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.102    last year
a man is a non-birthing person. Elaborate on this, please.

A male human can not give birth. Thus making HIM a non-birthing person. If a male could give birth, then he would be a birthing person.

What part is confusing you?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.109  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.105    last year
From your comment I sincerely doubt that is a fact. I have yet to see you define what a man or a woman is. That's ok though, neither can you liberal brethren. 

You know what? Your ridiculous insults are a waste of time and I don't know why they are allowed here! If you know what a man is then say it: Then, we will all know what YOU think/know about it other wise who the hell are you to bother with complaining about what others think about it?!

Of course medically induced sex change does not give doctors an ability to 'make' cis-girls/women out of cis-boys/men or boys/men out of girls.

I have said as much about why cis-gender. BTW, cis-gendered people are called such for OBVIOUS reasons. Time for you to say something constructive that helps and builds up people and discussion rather than the traditional - NEGATIVE BOB - talking points shit that is the conservative playbook.

Your "mission" if you care to continue commenting (to me anyway) is to not state the obvious, Captain, but to say something that helps people rather than satisfy some needy urge to be combative and meddlesome in the affairs of other people.

I am not the least bit interested in reading your comments that just argue for the sake of it.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.110  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.106    last year

Western civilization. Now you tell me a few of those civilizations that do not engage in transgenderism and do include conservatives like yourself!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.111  CB  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.108    last year

Thanks, for that display of "Captain Obvious."  You're so smart that I can't stand it.   (Another superfluous waste of time point.)  /s

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.112  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.94    last year
Explain the physics involved in a male taking female hormones and any accompanying surgeries which denature or limit the production of testosterone and compare that fe/male to an unaffected male. A 'weakened' male is not going to measure up against other males qualitatively or quantitatively in sports.

And?  That puts him in the category with 90+% of men who aren't taking those hormones or having those surgeries.

He still has muscular and skeletal advantages over women.  

So what do you do with transfemales and transmales athletes if you can not pair them with their "cis" sex, but politically are uncomfortable pairing them with their newly acquired sex? What do you do?

They need to compete in the open divisions. This is exceedingly simple and blatantly obvious to anyone with any experience in sports.  It's only "political" because there are people who care more about their politics than the integrity of the sport in question or fairness in general.

Contrary to popular belief, what people call "men's" sports leagues have actually been open to women for decades. There is no rule against the Green Bay Packers signing a woman as their new quarterback.  These are not "men's" leagues, they are "open leagues". 

Women's sports were created because women are physically unable to compete with men in comparable situations.  So we created special non-open leagues to allow them the space to compete fairly against each other.  Men are not allowed in these leagues because they have an unfair physical advantage.  

A 6-foot male is average or below average height for a competitive athlete.  A 6-foot female has elite-level size.  Hormones and gender surgery don't change that.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.113  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.112    last year
He still has muscular and skeletal advantages over women.  

That depends does'nt it on the boy or man?  And by the way, perhaps it is time girls and women 'bulk up' instead of playing to the social/cultural 'wants' of conservative male ideas of what a girl or woman 'should' APPEAR to be. (Think martial artists and Amazonian-tall, strong, and athletic.)

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.5.114  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.5.111    last year

What is a time point?

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.5.115  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.5.113    last year
perhaps it is time girls and women 'bulk up' instead of playing to the social/cultural 'wants' of conservative male ideas of what a girl or woman 'should' APPEAR to be

Why do you think that girls and woman play to the cultural wants of conservative males?  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.116  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.112    last year

Then let them use "open-leagues" or whatever. I don't give a shit. Apparently, you should be saying something to that effect rather than trying to argue along with your compadres along the lines that a man is a man and a woman is a woman-period and ne'er the two categories shall 'cross.' Because they are crossing.

Whatever fixes the issue and causes peace between people is what I am consent to. And finally, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am just stating these transpeople have a cause and people in sports and who love sports should come up with a 'do-able' solution rather than the traditional political culture war narrative!

(I am crunched for time right now - got a meeting coming up - so I hope this reads well if not I will have look into it later.)

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.117  arkpdx  replied to  Kavika @4.5.107    last year

Links. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.118  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.109    last year
If you know what a man is then say it:

I have several times it is you that seems to be reluctant to  say what a man is. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.119  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.110    last year

Well you are wrong. Western civilization is much older than transgenderism and sexual reassignment surgery which was first done in 1952 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.120  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.113    last year
That depends does'nt it on the boy or man?

I'm not interested in the discussion where anybody defends the concept of transitioning pre-pubescent boys.

  And by the way, perhaps it is time girls and women 'bulk up' instead of playing to the social/cultural 'wants' of conservative male ideas of what a girl or woman 'should' APPEAR to be. (Think martial artists and Amazonian-tall, strong, and athletic.)

Many women are doing exactly that.  They are still women and they will still never be able to compete with men who undergo similar training.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.121  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.116    last year
Then let them use "open-leagues" or whatever. I don't give a shit. Apparently, you should be saying something to that effect rather than trying to argue along with your compadres along the lines that a man is a man and a woman is a woman-period and ne'er the two categories shall 'cross.' 

Or.... maybe you might invest the intellectual effort to distinguish one person from another.

 
 
 
George
Junior Expert
4.5.122  George  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.121    last year

How dare you, now get into your progressive designated box.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.123  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.118    last year

Then forget it. I'm not wasting more time on digression.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.124  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.119    last year

Your comment is a non-sequitar.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.125  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.120    last year

Not that I am defending transsexual women in women sports, but if I was you I would be careful of saying "Never."  Science is making dreams come true (everyday).

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.126  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.121    last year

Maybe you will respect that (medical) science is creating hybrid men and women (every day) who (like the rest of us) have a NEED TO BELONG! Instead, of being a role-player in a cabal of traditionalists who pass judgement on the passions of people they can't, or choose to not, understand or dislike. Trans-females and trans-males are here now and they will have to be dealt with in a suitable and appropriate manner rather than just told to get a grip and fit in the two boxes you evidently "subscribe" for them.

 
 
 
Drinker of the Wry
Junior Expert
4.5.127  Drinker of the Wry  replied to  CB @4.5.126    last year
Maybe you will respect that (medical) science is creating hybrid men and women (every day) 

what are hybrid men and woman?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.128  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.125    last year
Not that I am defending transsexual women in women sports,

Then we agree.  

I'm really not sure why you can't take "yes" for an answer.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.129  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.126    last year
Maybe you will respect that (medical) science is creating hybrid men and women (every day) who (like the rest of us) have a NEED TO BELONG!

I think "hybrid" may be the best description I've heard. 

I think, as you say, the two boxes may be the problem.  

If a trans person simply says "I don't really conform to the stereotypes of either gender", that's a very different statement from "you must call me male or female despite the fact I'm not actually that".

  

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.130  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.129    last year

Transsexuals have a somewhat unique problem: They do not have acceptance (many of them are harassed and killed and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR individual or collective CHARACTER). Many culture warriors (people who look for issues to get people excited about - Gore Vidal) see political 'gold' in using other people's success stories and miseries to launch their careers, meddle in, and all around past unfavorable judgements.

Anyway, transsexuals do not want to be known by that which they have REJECTED (that is negative), instead they wish to be ACCEPTED as who/what they have become (that's positive). To do otherwise, is self-defeating at some point!

No one wants the trauma of being stigmatized. No one.

Finally, over time (or a move to a different city or state) after transitioning - a "fresh" start - many transitioned males and female can live in peace without a DISCLAIMER of their past lives  trailing them around.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.131  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.123    last year

So you are not going to answer it. Not really surprised. When the only accurate answer you could possibly give destroys your whole argument all you can do is ignore it. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.132  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.124    last year

How so? Please enlighten me. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.133  arkpdx  replied to  Drinker of the Wry @4.5.127    last year

That is what I would like to know.  I am not expect him to answer you. 

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.134  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.130    last year
they wish to be ACCEPTED as who/what they have become

Does that include what they have become at the expense of real naturally born women?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.135  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.131    last year

4.5.106 answered at 5.5.110. Let's move on. I am no longer interested in what you think a man is or vice-versa. This back and forth is tedious and brain-draining.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.136  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.134    last year

Life around you is changing. Conservatives have held people (diversity) down in this nation long enough. The time has come for "Archie Bunkerism" to die out!

All in the Family Theme Song - with Lyrics

Yeah "Archie," those days were Make America Great Again for men like you—only you! The rest of us-we did alright and made 'do.' Even enjoyed it, because it was not going to help to cry about it. But with medical science change is coming fast and furious now. . . .

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.137  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.135    last year

Neither of the comments answered the question of what the definitions of a human  man/male or woman/female are. All you do is dodge the question and make bogus claims that you answered. You then attempt to insult me. Unfortunately for you in order to insult me I must first value your opinion.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
4.5.138  arkpdx  replied to  CB @4.5.136    last year

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done. It also does not make it right. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.139  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.136    last year
Life around you is changing. Conservatives have held people (diversity) down in this nation long enough.

Who is holding you down, CB?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.140  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.111    last year
Thanks, for that display of "Captain Obvious." 

One should expect rather obvious answers to rather obvious questions.

if you don't want answers, why do you ask questions? Or is it that you only seek answers confirming what you think you know?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.141  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.139    last year
Who is holding you down, CB?

Probably the same mythical folks making all life miserable for any non-conservatives through utter domination in the nation's politics and the same ones removing their rights and causing them to fail?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.142  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.137    last year

Tedious and brain-draining. And since you don't value my remarks: Ditto.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.143  CB  replied to  arkpdx @4.5.138    last year

Easy for you to 'say,' I guess. When is the last time a conservative wanted to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex? Once in a lifetime? Yesterday? Never?

Well arkpdx, we are not all blessed to be heterosexuals-which could make life so much easier. Instead, we get to be homosexual and put-down politically by conservatives for fun, profit, and policy.

And if you think for one second that transpersons make "it" look easy; you're in for a rude awakening. Because nothing about changing one's sexuality (and the politics don't help either) is easy.  Transsexuals have no choice but to undergo the changes.

Do you have any idea what goes through the mind and consciousness of a person

It is conservative society that is the meanest, most vindictive, bunch of SOBs on this green Earth to interfere with other people who are simply trying to be happy in their own skin! But, we know how long minorities in this country have ordealed with conservative "thinkers" who use every avenue they can go down to manipulate the masses against us.

What do you know about right (for everyone)? What? You know nothing about what is right for everyone. Shucks! Conservatives have enough trouble adhering to their own set of moral standards: vis a vis Donald J. Trump, a traumatic and dangerous loser running around the nation on the loose!

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.144  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.139    last year

The people who hated inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity are doing their best to hold society down or regress it. It is a constant struggle to keep conservative policies at bayl.

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.145  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.144    last year
The people who hated inclusion, equity/equality, and diversity are doing their best to hold society down or regress it.

Who are these people?

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.146  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.145    last year

Conservatives. Don't conservatives recognize their own strident 'handiwork' when they see it?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.147  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.146    last year
Conservatives. Don't conservatives recognize their own strident 'handiwork' when they see it?

Really?  How?  Specifically.  Which of your rights have conservatives denied you?  How are they "holding you down"?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.148  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.147    last year

must be an overactive imagination.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
4.5.149  CB  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.147    last year

So you don't recognize conservative handiwork when you see it. A case of the left hand of a conservative doesn't know what its right hand is doing? (Wow.)

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.150  Texan1211  replied to  CB @4.5.149    last year

why can't you just answer a few questions for once?

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.151  Jack_TX  replied to  CB @4.5.149    last year
So you don't recognize conservative handiwork when you see it.

Be specific.  What is it that keeps you down?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.152  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.151    last year

[deleted]

 
 
 
Jack_TX
Professor Quiet
4.5.153  Jack_TX  replied to  Texan1211 @4.5.152    last year

[deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
4.5.154  Texan1211  replied to  Jack_TX @4.5.153    last year

[deleted]

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5  mocowgirl    last year

Question:  If this had been a boy, who identified as a white, straight heterosexual male, who assaulted a 17 year old girl because he didn't like her words, would that be acceptable?

I want to know because would that mean that ALL women are to blame for domestic assault for using words that make their boyfriends and husbands violent?  If not, please explain so I can understand where the laws should be drawn and enforced to protect females from being physically assaulted by males.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5    last year

What is up with this "identifying" stuff?

Either he IS a white straight heterosexual or he isn't.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.1  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1    last year
What is up with this "identifying" stuff?

Because not too long ago, a male would not be in a female's restroom, locker room or competing in a female's designated sport.

For some strange reason, in today's world, it has become acceptable for a male to "identify" as female and allowed access to ALL women's facilities and sports.  

To make it even more mystifying, the male "identifying" as a female also "identifies" as a lesbian because they want to have sex with females.  This used to be considered  a heterosexual male.

I hope this clears up my understanding of how males "identifying" as female is used to create confusion, division and undermine the rights of women.

Thankfully, there is now pushback to protect women's rights from males who really should have their own category to protect women and be fair to all.

"You Can't Change Sex!" LGB Alliance Founder Debates Transgender Inclusion - YouTube

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.1    last year

oh gee that will certainly cause some ripples in the alphabet group!

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.3  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.2    last year
oh gee that will certainly cause some ripples in the alphabet group!

Caitlin Jenner and many others have been doing that for some time.  They just haven't been getting the press they should have been.

Males should not have a protected category to commit physical assault on females.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.3    last year

I agree 100 %.

But we have seen some fracturing within that community lately.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.5  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.4    last year
But we have seen some fracturing within that community lately.

As a woman, I find my ability to be empathetic to be a huge liability to my own well-being when it has caused me to champion abusers before I understood that they were really abusers.

What I find even worse are the women who champion abusers that refuse to acknowledge that abuses committed even when it is their face.  However, because I am wired to try to "understand" others there are videos about how our brains are constructed to accept some things on an emotional level that we would never accept on a logical level (when we are capable of using logic).   Abusers can even possibly synchronize their victims' brain waves and take over the victim's memory and emotions.  The more I learn, the more I am concerned about what the movement to champion abusers is doing to our women and children.

Get Parasite Narcissist Out of Your Colonized Mind - YouTube

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.6  mocowgirl  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.4    last year
But we have seen some fracturing within that community lately.

Richard Dawkins is also being criticized for being critical of the bullying tactics used by the trans community and their supporters.

These days even renowned biologists are not allowed to define male and female without risking backlash.

"As a biologist there are two sexes and that's all there is to it" - Richard Dawkins - YouTube

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.7  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.6    last year

So you are a believer that people like this are pushing their views to use the wrong bathroom...

Do you think these men should use the woman's room?

512

512

512

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.8  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.5    last year

Abuse....Like people abusing trans people? You know that happens more often than the opposite.

A woman in Las Vegas says she remains shaken from her experience last week when another woman berated her in a public restroom for being transgender . The problem is that she's not trans, and, as she puts it, regardless of whether she had been, the entire situation was plainly wrong.

In Las Vegas, Jay, a 24-year-old cis woman, was driving with her boyfriend on Thursday when she said she had to use the restroom.

Jay says the couple stopped at Rampart Casino after being out all day to fix a seat belt on their car.

Because she knew she would take longer, she gave her boyfriend some money to gamble while he waited and she went to the bathroom.

"As soon as I got in, I went straight to a stall," Jay tells The Advocate. "About a minute or so in, I start to hear a woman being extremely aggressive. At first, I wasn't hearing exactly what she was saying until I started hearing her say, 'Trans, figure out your identity at home ... they better not come out of there. .. that's not allowed ... that's a boy, [and] they think this is [OK] because it's being taught in schools.'"

I can show a couple more of these if you want to talk about abuse...

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1.9  Right Down the Center  replied to  Ender @5.1.8    last year
Abuse....Like people abusing trans people? You know that happens more often than the opposite.

So it is OK when trans abuse others because it happens less often? I am sure one can search on the internet and find plenty of examples of both. I wasn't aware it was a contest.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.10  Ender  replied to  Right Down the Center @5.1.9    last year
Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens face greater risk of sexual assault in schools that prevent them from using bathrooms or locker rooms consistent with their gender identity, according to a recent study.

Researchers looked at data from a survey of nearly 3,700 U.S. teens aged 13-17. The study found that 36% of transgender or gender-nonbinary students with restricted bathroom or locker room access reported being sexually assaulted in the last 12 months, according to a May 6, 2019 CNN article. Of all students surveyed, 1 out of every 4, or 25.9%, reported being a victim of sexual assault in the past year.

“Unfortunately, kids’ access to restrooms and locker rooms has become very politicized in some communities,” said Gabriel Murchison, PhD candidate in population health sciences at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and lead author of the study. Murchison noted that although the study only shows an association, not whether the restrictions themselves caused the sexual assaults, “they are certainly a strong indicator of environments where kids are at risk.”

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.11  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.8    last year
Abuse....Like people abusing trans people? You know that happens more often than the opposite.

And how does a woman's verbal ignorance justify a male assaulting females?  

People abusing trans people?  Who is usually physically assaulting a trans person?  Isn't it usually males that are responsible for physically assaulting the males that are posing as female?  Where do cis women fit in this?  What physical threat do cis women pose to males?   Why should we be forced to share our spaces with males posing as women?  

I am against abuse - period.

Biological males are NOT females and should not be in female restrooms, lockers or sports - period.  

To be completely fair to everyone involved, the biological males, who believe they are female, should have their own restrooms, lockers and sports.    The vast majority of biological females are not physically able to defend themselves against biological males.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.12  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.7    last year
Do you think these men should use the woman's room?

Do these examples shower with the high school football team?  Serious question. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.13  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.11    last year

Why do you think I am trying to justify assault? If that is what you get out of my comments, you sound like others here...

Do you know what happened in the bathroom? Do you know if they were abusing the person that lashed out?

You do not know any more details than I do yet want to jump to conclusion that this one instance is part of some wider plot to abuse women....

Do you want people like this having to use a men's room?

512

512

Answer me if you think they should use bathrooms that they are according to you, not designed for.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.14  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.12    last year

Serious question my ass.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.15  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.13    last year
Do you know if they were abusing the person that lashed out?

"Lashed out"?  Is this your term for physical assault?

In my world, "lashed out" is verbal not physical, but what the Hell do I know, I am only a biological woman - not the new and improved trans woman that is some people's new political/social agenda.

As a biological woman, my rights and my safety are being deemed secondary to the rights and safety of the miniscule number of biological males who self-identify as a woman.

I will repeat, I do not support abuse.

People are not required to like or accept everyone or anyone.  Among other things, people are tribal.  This website is a fairly good example.  A person has to acquire a label of sorts to be "accepted" and acquire "likes" by the Ds or Rs, the libs or cons, the religious or the atheists, the pro this or anti this, etc. etc.  Independent thinking is usually judged harshly because people seek safety even on an internet forum where it is highly unlikely that we will interact with someone so unhinged they will try to track us down to physically harm us.  If we are forced to share physical spaces with people who make us feel unsafe, it is detrimental (at any age) to our physical and mental health.

The males, identifying as female, are NOT female.  If they can pass as the other gender to use a restroom, so be it.  I would prefer that businesses are required to add a third option for the trans women.

The examples, you have shown, are not teenagers in school are they?  

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.16  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.14    last year
Serious question my ass.

Really?  

Would the teenage boys pose a threat to the trans boys being naked in the showers with them?

Would the trans boys pose a threat to the teenage boys naked in the showers with them?

Is there a reason that females should have "safe" spaces from biological males or not?

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1.17  Right Down the Center  replied to  Ender @5.1.10    last year

Again, so it is OK when trans abuse others because it happens less often?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.18  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.15    last year

If you feel you are forced to share spaces with people that make you uncomfortable, maybe you would be better off not leaving the house.

You can call them whatever you want. You can go up to them and spill bigotry by telling them they are not what they present themselves as. Funny thing is, you do not see the abuse you push on people in thinking only you are right and only you should be safe.

And yes these are high school kids. Do you think all trans people wait until after school to be who they are?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.19  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.16    last year

Last I can tell not one kid is forced to shower with others...

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.20  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.13    last year
Do you want people like this having to use a men's room?

I thought about it.

If they have a penis, yes, definitely.

If they have fully transitioned and been castrated, then they should use the women's restroom.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.21  Ender  replied to  Right Down the Center @5.1.17    last year

Strawman argument meant only to diminish actual stats.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.22  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.18    last year
If you feel you are forced to share spaces with people that make you uncomfortable, maybe you would be better off not leaving the house.

Are you deliberately trying to be provocative or just incapable of having a logical conversation about this topic?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.23  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.20    last year

Why does it bother you so much. What do you think someone is going to see that has never been seen?

Have you never been to a concert where women are in the men's room peeing in urinals? Never been outside where people have to pee...

Acting like this is hell on earth because someone that peed next to you might have a penis, to me is just bizarre. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.24  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.22    last year

You have made your statements and decided that they will forever be the gender they were born with.

If you cannot deal with dissenting views, the problem is not with me.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.25  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.23    last year
Why does it bother you so much. What do you think someone is going to see that has never been seen?

If the 17 yr old boy had just went in the restroom and peed, then he would not have assaulted a 15 yr old girl, there would not have been an arrest and we would not have been having this discussion on why biological males do not belong in high school girls' restrooms.

As far as public restrooms, until fairly recently, I would not really have cared if a man was peeing in a stall next to me because there hadn't been the incidents making the news about trans activists actually physically attacking women's rights groups for demanding that biological males are not allowed to compete in women's sports.

When the males, identifying as women, started using physical violence against women for demanding the right not to have to compete against biological males in sports, then my total concern has shifted to protecting girls and women from these men - period.  

I don't want to see these males harmed, but the people most likely to harm them are other males.

The people most likely to be harmed by trans women are biological females.  This is not acceptable to me at all.  Zero, zip, nada.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.26  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.25    last year

Neither one of us know what happened in the bathroom yet you choose to use this as a springboard to now transgender people are attacking everyone else which is complete and utter bullshit.

I can show several instances caught on tape that show the exact opposite, where women are attacking trans people and even Lesbians that look butch.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.27  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.16    last year

Are you afraid of lesbians in ladies rooms too?  I mean, they are more likely to be attracted to you than a transgender woman.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.28  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.25    last year

The mere fact that adults need to be told that males should use restrooms for males shows how far down the rabbit hole some people are willing to take us.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.29  Ender  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.27    last year

What is ironic to me is what they are advocating for is for this man to be in the restroom with them...

512

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.30  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  Ender @5.1.29    last year

I know.  It's the unintended consequences of what they are advocating for, but then they'll be screaming that transgender men should use the men's room too.  

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.31  mocowgirl  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.27    last year
Are you afraid of lesbians in ladies rooms too?  I mean, they are more likely to be attracted to you than a transgender woman.  

My favorite cousin is a lesbian.  Evidently, I am not her type.  I do think I might have been "hit on" by a couple of lesbians over the years, but I am not certain.

If being a lesbian was a choice, I would have tried it or maybe I just haven't met a woman that I am sexually attracted to.

In high school, I had a couple of boyfriends that later turned out to be homosexual.  One died of AIDS before he was 30.  One tried marriage before deciding he was gay.  He offered to marry me when we were 17, but I turned him down.  LOL!  His twin brother has disowned him.  I feel it is very sad.  However, I haven't seen my gay pal since we were 17.  Maybe, he has turned out to be a bitter asshole.  The guy, who died of AIDS, has a younger brother who is also gay.  The younger brother was still a sweetheart when I saw him a decade ago.  Him and his husband were planning on retiring and doing some traveling.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.32  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.31    last year

Nice story, but none of that answers the question I asked.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.33  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.31    last year

I am sorry if I seem over zealous about this. My brother has been married to his husband a little over ten years.

It gets under my skin when I hear hateful talk, if not outright hate. The now targeting of gay people, calling them groomers out to get their kids and all other kinds of bullshit, sorry but just kind of pisses me off.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.34  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.33    last year
The now targeting of gay people, calling them groomers out to get their kids and all other kinds of bullshit, sorry but just kind of pisses me off.

Pisses me off too.  I love my cousin.

I was raped by my own father at 18.  He was a straight white heterosexual male.  He literally poured whiskey down me and raped me when I was at the point of unconsciousness.  I am now 66 and only coming to terms with it.  So please understand, my only aim here is to protect girls and women from male predators. 

Homosexuals have NEVER harmed me any way.  

Trans women are a different issue to me than homosexual men.  Their actions are different.

I have never known homosexual men to demand to use women's restrooms or compete in women's sports.  To my best understanding, homosexual men are men who know they are men, but prefer sex with men.  Trans women are men who claim to be women and demand to be viewed and treated as women.

If my understanding is wrong, then please tell me where I am not comprehending this issue fully.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1.35  Right Down the Center  replied to  Ender @5.1.21    last year

It is not an argument, it is a question.  Do the stats you keep regurgitating diminish the fact a 17 year old beat up a 15 year old?  Do your stats somehow make it more acceptable?  Your stats are nothing more than a deflection.  Why is that?  Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.36  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.34    last year

As far as using the restroom, I could see why they would want to.

As far as sports I would say to keep things the same. From what I have seen, most trans people do not even play sports.

I would say that someone that is under hormone therapy is in a different position than those that aren't. From what I have seen, it looks to me like some of them in sports that are identifying are not taking replacement hormones.

Different positions, if that makes any sense.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.37  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.36    last year
From what I have seen, most trans people do not even play sports.

One is one too many.

Caitlyn Jenner says it is not fair.  I totally agree.  Records held by women are now being held by biological males.  Positions on woman's sports teams in colleges are now being filled by biological males.  Just one is one too many.

Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls competing in school sports l GMA - YouTube

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.38  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.37    last year

My opinion is that there should not be laws targeting. It should be decided by the sports leagues or whatever.

Specific rules. Like one cannot transition one day and then join a team the next.

Like I said, there are different levels of transition. Like if the guy I showed a pic of above wanted to play football, I would say give it a try.

If someone transitioned yesterday and joined women's wrestling, yes that should not be allowed.

On the other end, someone that has transitioned and has about the same strength as everyone else on the team, should they be not allowed?

I guess rational nuance is my point.

 
 
 
Right Down the Center
Senior Guide
5.1.39  Right Down the Center  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.28    last year

I am going to buy stock in porta potty manufacturing.  That is where we are headed.  Everyone gets their own private place to go and it doesn't matter what you are or claim to be.  Just wash your hands for 20 seconds and all is good.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.40  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.38    last year
On the other end, someone that has transitioned and has about the same strength as everyone else on the team, should they be not allowed?

The male who has gone through puberty very likely always has an advantage for biological reasons.  This is why there should be a separate category for trans women.

Are there any examples of trans men playing mens' sports?  If so, have they set any records in those sports?  

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.41  Texan1211  replied to  Right Down the Center @5.1.39    last year
I am going to buy stock in porta potty manufacturing.  That is where we are headed.  Everyone gets their own private place to go and it doesn't matter what you are or claim to be.  Just wash your hands for 20 seconds and all is good.

Just seems like the very same people advocating for males to use women's restrooms are the same ones who cried and bitched about 'precedent' even though we have had separate facilities for decades and decades.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.42  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.40    last year

Did the person go though puberty or is the person on puberty blockers? 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.43  mocowgirl  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.42    last year
Did the person go though puberty or is the person on puberty blockers? 

There are various studies online that address your question.  How accurate any of them are seems to still be debatable.  Which ones are accepted could be based on a person's bias as to whether their main concern is fairness to women or to men claiming to be women.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.44  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.43    last year

I didn't ask "studies". I asked you and it's the second time I've asked you questions that you have refused to answer. 

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.45  Texan1211  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.44    last year

Frustrating when claims are made and you seek clarity with no response, eh?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.46  Tessylo  replied to  Ender @5.1.26    last year

I don't get why some folks choose to defend such indefensible shit

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.47  Tacos!  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.1    last year
Because not too long ago, a male would not be in a female's restroom, locker room or competing in a female's designated sport.

It doesn’t seem like there is anything about this event that required it take place in a bathroom. This didn’t happen behind the closed door of a stall, nor in any kind of isolation.

student "A" approached her with a question

That can happen in the quad, in or out of a classroom, in the parking lot, or at a lunch table. Additionally, there were other people present. Other than anti-trans prejudice, there is nothing that transforms this interaction into a creepy sexual assault situation.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.48  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.47    last year
there is nothing that transforms this interaction into a creepy sexual assault situation.

I think it is just an old-fashioned assault case, nothing sexual about it.

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.49  Tessylo  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.47    last year

It appears that comment 1 would lead some folks to that conclusion/confusion

something about 

ISSUING A TRAVEL ADVISORY TO THE GIRLS RESTROOM!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.50  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.47    last year
It doesn’t seem like there is anything about this event that required it take place in a bathroom.

Nothing at all other than the chosen place the assailant picked.

Maybe out of sight of adults?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.51  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.50    last year
Maybe out of sight of adults?

Except that, 

The student victim, labeled as "V" on the redacted report, told police she was speaking with friends in the girls' bathroom when student "A" approached her with a question

You don’t need to be out of sight to ask a question.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.52  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.51    last year

no but it would probably be better for the assailant if no adults could see it.

Teachers kind of frown on assault in schook.

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.53  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.52    last year

There is zero evidence that this person was laying in wait for someone or even that the attack was anticipated. Is it possible? Sure. But there is no reason to think so, and it’s not even alleged in the report. If the attack was planned so as to be out of sight, wouldn’t it also be planned when the victim was alone?

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.54  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.53    last year
There is zero evidence that this person was laying in wait for someone or even that the attack was anticipated.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting they were, and I know damn well that is something I haven't stated.

I didn't even claim it was planned.

But do you think the assault would have taken place in FRONT of teachers?  Of course not, as that would be stupid!

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.55  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.51    last year
You don’t need to be out of sight to ask a question.

That is true--the assailant COULD have asked the question ANYWHERE besides the bathroom, but CHOSE not to.

I know YOU don't wonder why, but I do.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.56  mocowgirl  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.44    last year
I didn't ask "studies". I asked you and it's the second time I've asked you questions that you have refused to answer. 

What I was stating was that if the experts on the issue have no clear answers to your question, how would I?

Are you asking me to guess to what level puberty blockers have on each individual, then do you really want me give you a pie in the sky speculation?  To what end is that helpful to anyone reading this discussion?

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.57  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.54    last year

I’ve seen plenty of fights break out in front of teachers. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
Professor Guide
5.1.58  Tacos!  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.55    last year
That is true--the assailant COULD have asked the question ANYWHERE besides the bathroom, but CHOSE not to. I know YOU don't wonder why, but I do.

Maybe because like so many people who engage in this anti-trans hysteria, you’ve bought into the mythology of the dangerous bathroom and the predatory trans person. Try imagining a slightly different scenario  where you change the people or the location. Realize that a fight like this could happen with any combination of people at any location, and you might start to appreciate how unimportant the bathroom is to this story.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.59  Texan1211  replied to  Tacos! @5.1.58    last year
Maybe because like so many people who engage in this anti-trans hysteria, you’ve bought into the mythology of the dangerous bathroom and the predatory trans person.

Try visiting reality once in a while.

Absolutely nothing I have posted would lead a sane person to that fucked-up conclusion.

 
 
 
Wishful_thinkin
Freshman Silent
5.1.60  Wishful_thinkin  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.56    last year

Just say you don't know, which is obvious you don't. 

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.61  Ender  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.60    last year

I was trying to be nice but not anymore. Anyone that states progressive people champion abusing women has no foot in reality.

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.62  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.61    last year
Anyone that states progressive people champion abusing women has no foot in reality.

Really?

There are no progressive people in this discussion stating that the girl somehow offended the male enough that she deserved to be physically assaulted?

 
 
 
Tessylo
Professor Principal
5.1.63  Tessylo  replied to  Wishful_thinkin @5.1.60    last year

yes quite obviously does not

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.64  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.62    last year

You keep harping on this one instance and then state later on that it is such a problem everywhere...

You think this is the first time in history kids have fought with the opposite sex?

Contrary to how some believe, most trans women are not 6'5 and 250lbs.

You admitted earlier that there was an ongoing problem between these two.

Hell look at the Mulvaney woman that started all the bud light controversy. I don't think she could beat up a wet paper bag.

Neither one of us knows what happened, so stop acting like everyone is innocent except the trans person.

Almost everyone of your comments is about how bad trans people are.

 
 
 
arkpdx
Professor Quiet
5.1.65  arkpdx  replied to  Ender @5.1.64    last year
Mulvaney woman

What Mulvaney woman? All I ever seen of someone like that is a man disguised as a woman. 

You keep harping on this one instance and then state later on that it is such a problem everywhere...

Off the top of my head I remember at least two instances in Virginia also. 

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.66  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.64    last year
You think this is the first time in history kids have fought with the opposite sex?

The correct phrasing in this case is a male assaulting a female.

The weight classification of male on female violence is a non-issue to me, but seems to matter to you.

I cited information that was in this seeded content that you could have read for yourself before wading into a discussion to defend a male who had made previous threats of violence against the 15 year old female.  It was serious enough that the police were called.  Seems to not be a concern to you.

Mulvaney is just another person seeking public attention among 7+ billion people in the world.  I really don't find anything he has done to be newsworthy to me.  Nor do I know what his physical condition is.

I am among the people in this discussion saying we don't know what happened in the restroom.  I am not among the people in this discussion saying the mouthy female got what she asked for.

I have never ever stated that trans people are bad.  I said that I don't agree with biological males being allowed access to women's spaces and sports.

What I have stated is that I agree with Richard Dawkins - there are two biological sexes. 

Biological males, claiming to be biological women, is just that a claim that is based on their self-assessed emotional "feeling" not physical reality. 

How is it possible to verify that their claim that a biological male can "feel" like a biological woman is possible?  Is it a con?  I don't know. Could be.  Who knows?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.67  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.66    last year

You are just feeding into the hate and bigotry.

Whether or not that is intentional I don't know.

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.68  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @5.1.67    last year
You are just feeding into the hate and bigotry.

She most definitely is NOT doing what you claim.

That tired line gets trotted out far too often when liberals are presented with different ideas.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.69  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.68    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.70  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.67    last year
You are just feeding into the hate and bigotry.

By stating facts?

Whether or not that is intentional I don't know.

It is intentional that I research and prefer to use logic over emotion whenever possible.

This is why I have spent hundreds of hours watching videos about how the human brain works or doesn't work.  I am not claiming to be an expert on the subject of human behavior, but I am stating that using emotion instead of logic usually winds up with people harmed, even killed.

Emotionally and logically, I don't see or use violence as an answer to problems because that just results in more violence.  I prefer solutions that are as fair as possible to everyone involved.

There is nothing fair to biological females by allowing biological males access to female spaces and female sports.

What is fair for biological males claiming to be females?  Their own spaces and their own sports or to compete against their own biological sex like Bruce Jenner did when he won Gold Medals at the Olympics as a male would be the optimal fair solution to everyone concerned.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.71  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.70    last year

No matter how much you blabber on, it is nothing but marginalizing a certain segment of society, [Deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.72  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @5.1.69    last year
That she has the support of all of you tells me all I need to know.

Perhaps all you WANT to know, but definitely not all you NEED to know!

I apologize for her facts ruining your narrative.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.73  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.72    last year

 [Deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.74  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @5.1.73    last year
If someone was to be a bigot I cannot stop them.

That is a cheap, lousy tactic to counter arguments you otherwise can't refute logically, apparently.

Intellectually dishonest and lazy.

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.75  Ender  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.74    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.76  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @5.1.75    last year

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.77  Texan1211  replied to  Ender @5.1.75    last year
I just hope she realizes the company she wants to keep.

Is that an underhanded way to call me a bigot?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.78  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.69    last year
That she has the support of all of you tells me all I need to know.

Texan and I have butted heads more than we have agreed and will probably continue to do so as long as we interact.  But we can debate some topics as respected adversaries....and sometimes not.

Ender, I have nothing against you or anyone else on this forum, I come here for discussion and debate and some human interaction.  The majority of my life is spent reading and researching human behavior and trying to understand where we're headed based on where we have been and where we are as a species.

Somedays, I listen to hours of sleep meditations so I wind down enough to sleep after spending just a few hours interacting with people fighting on an internet forum.  This is why I am rarely here.  I have no interest in being verbally abused by people who don't seem to be capable of having logical debates.

Sleep Meditation for Detachment from Over-Thinking - Calm Down Anxiety for Deep Sleep - YouTube

 
 
 
Texan1211
Professor Principal
5.1.79  Texan1211  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.78    last year
Texan and I have butted heads more than we have agreed and will probably continue to do so as long as we interact.  But we can debate some topics as respected adversaries....and sometimes not.

True enough!

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.80  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.78    last year

There is no logical debate when people are set in their ways and are going to demonize individuals and keep saying complete bullshit like progressives condone the beating of women.

[Deleted]

 
 
 
GregTx
PhD Guide
5.1.81  GregTx  replied to  Ender @5.1.80    last year
There is no logical debate when people are set in their ways and are going to demonize individuals...

Exactly...

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.1.82  bugsy  replied to  Ender @5.1.67    last year
You are just feeding into the hate and bigotry.

So saying there are 2 biological sexes is considered hatred and bigotry to you?

Why would any sane person think otherwise?

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.1.83  bugsy  replied to  Texan1211 @5.1.68    last year
That tired line gets trotted out far too often when liberals are presented with different ideas.

Don't forget "racist" and "misogynist" as the most go to, followed up with "white supremacist".

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.84  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.80    last year
There is no logical debate when people are set in their ways and are going to demonize individuals

I have found a lot of the discussion on this article based on emotional rather than logic.

Logically, biologically males are not biologically female.  

Logically, there is no reason that biological males should be competing in biological female sports and replacing biological females in female sports.

Logically, there is no way to judge that biological males actually "feel" like biological females.

Where is even one logical solution proposed in this discussion that protects the rights of biological females?

9 Appeal to Pity Fallacy ("Ad Misericordiam") Examples in Everyday Life (developgoodhabits.com)

Final Thoughts on the Appeal to Pity Fallacy

Appeals to pity can be very powerful. When you invoke sympathy in your audience, you’re inviting them to identify with what you’re saying on a visceral level, letting go of any intellectual filters that they may usually use, such as uncertainty and logic.

Using this type of argument can be unethical if you don’t allow your listeners to rationally consider your argument before determining how to proceed without any emotions involved.  Because of this, it’s important to avoid pity when trying to make a claim. Furthermore, this tactic will demonstrate to any logical thinkers that you’re lacking concrete evidence for your argument.
 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.85  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.84    last year
I have found a lot of the discussion on this article based on emotional rather than logic

I stopped reading right there. If you are going to accuse people of something, say it out right.

Are you trying to say that I run on emotion and you do not?

 
 
 
mocowgirl
Professor Quiet
5.1.86  mocowgirl  replied to  Ender @5.1.85    last year
If you are going to accuse people of something, say it out right. Are you trying to say that I run on emotion and you do not?

Ender, let me state plainly that I do not know you or anyone else on this forum well enough to know what you run on.

I am only commenting on how I read the comments.

If people's logic tells them that biological males are biologically females and the assorted other comments are all how their brain processes logic - then so be it.  I was wrong to believe that any of their cheerleading a 15 year old girl being physically assaulted by a 17 year old biological male was based on anything but their sound, rational, logical mind.

Again, I don't really know any of you other than as a screen name on the internet so I admit my perceptions are only based on the limited times I interact with you.  

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.87  Ender  replied to  mocowgirl @5.1.86    last year

All that I see is that you are never going to accept trans people and say they cannot exist.

That is not rational thought.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
5.1.88  bugsy  replied to  Ender @5.1.87    last year

Rational people do not see it the way you do. She was only stating that she believes that a biological male does not belong in women's bathrooms, nor do they belong in women's sports.

Leftists are trying to erase the true definition of a woman and trying to cram dudes in dresses into the same definition.

That is morally wrong on all counts.

 
 
 
CB
Professor Principal
5.1.89  CB  replied to  bugsy @5.1.82    last year

Excuse me. So, accepting and naming what science has wrought through modifying the two sexes should carry no weight and meaning with you/society? Are you (all) serious?

What are we doing here, bugsy? Just killing time? How far are you all willing to go to ignore legitimate science happening more and more all around the country and the world?

 
 
 
Ender
Professor Principal
5.1.90  Ender  replied to  CB @5.1.89