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Gov. Tim Walz ‘needs to be held accountable’ after video reveals Somali aid fraud — including $4M daycare with no kids and misspelled sign

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  s  •  11 months ago  •  68 comments

Gov. Tim Walz ‘needs to be held accountable’ after video reveals Somali aid fraud — including $4M daycare with no kids and misspelled sign

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz is facing intense new criticism after charities tied to the Somali immigrant community bilked the state out of up to $9 billion in aid — including   a daycare with a misspelled sign   that got $4 million despite reportedly having no kids.

Republican critics say the 2024 Democratic vice presidential nominee “needs to be held accountable” in the wake of a   mega-viral video   from independent journalist Nick Shirley that exposed the naked scale of the fraud in the North Star State.

Authorities in Minnesota are accused of overseeing the “largest fraud in US history,” and allowing it to go unchecked — even thought it was reportedly happening in front of every one’s faces.

Shirley’s visit to the Quality Learning Center in Minneapolis revealed a misspelled sign (“Quality Learing Center”), an unlit lobby and a largely empty parking lot, according to the video.

When he tried to speak with staff at the center, he was confronted by a screaming woman who accused him of being an ICE agent.

“Don’t open up! It’s ICE!” the woman shouted repeatedly in the video, which quickly garnered around 70 million views in a matter of days.

Now, leading Republicans across the state have hit out at the Democrat authorities for falling asleep at the wheel while eye-watering fraud took place.

The Quality Learning Center alone reportedly received $4 million in taxpayer funds.

“Fraud is easy to find — if you’re willing to look for it. Many of these seemingly vacant businesses have been cited by the Walz admin for licensing violations which should have made it easy to catch and stop millions from being stolen,” Republican gubernatorial candidate Lisa Demuth posted on X.

She is running on a platform of exposing fraud in her home state.

“$4 million of hard-earned tax dollars going to an education center that can’t even spell learning correctly. Care to explain this one, Tim Walz?” Minnesota Rep. Tom Emmer, a Republican, wrote on X in response.

New York Republican Congressman Mike Lawler went further, calling for people to be “arrested and prosecuted,” as well as for Walz “to be held accountable” for the scandal.


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Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
1  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

The looting of American taxpayers continues with the ongoing support of progressives.  It's corruption all the way down. Taxpayer dollars get fronted to fraudulent businesses who in turn donate to progressive candidates.  Rinse and repeat.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
2  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

Here's the full video. 

 
 
 
Gazoo
Masters Silent
3  Gazoo    11 months ago

This is such a huge story it’s amazing it hasn’t been discussed much on this site /S/.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
3.1  bugsy  replied to  Gazoo @3    11 months ago

Oh, it's been discussed, just not by those who don't care that immigrants, illegal and legal, in Minnesota, are stealing taxpayer money, financing terrorist groups, and funneling that money back to democrat election campaigns. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
3.1.1  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  bugsy @3.1    11 months ago

It seems most progressives aren't really interested in reality or actually improving the world.  They just want to feel good "we gave millions to "child care" therefore we are good people" without caring what happens to the money, other than that some gets kick backed to progressive politicians as donations.  Just spending money on topics that make them feel virtuous is all that matters and the more spent the better they feel. 

NGOs are the perfect example. Homeless NGO's don't want to solve homelessness. That would end their business. They just want ever increasing amounts of money given to them to "end homelessness" that they can distribute to the like minded.  California is the perfect example of that. The more they spend, the more people are homeless. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
3.2  Vic Eldred  replied to  Gazoo @3    11 months ago

It's even more amazing that the media is barely covering it.

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
3.3  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Gazoo @3    11 months ago

Some won't allow it because it puts certain demographics in a bad position.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Gazoo @3    11 months ago
This is such a huge story it’s amazing it hasn’t been discussed much on this site /S/.

Probably because all the progressives are saying "So investigate the people who committed the fraud! Why are dipshit conservatives SO FUCKING desperate to make this a partisan issue and claim Walz had some big part to play in it which is TOTAL BULLSHIT?". Oh, that's right, conservatives will always find something to faux hyperventilate over and assume it's some massive liberal conspiracy, it's all they can do with such undereducated brains. If this happened in a conservative run State, they would rightly be asking the DOJ to go after the fraudulent charity and not waste their breath whining about Republican leadership in that State, but clearly conservative hypocrites just can't help themselves.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
3.4.1  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.4    11 months ago

s all they can do with such undereducated brains

Billions of Dollars taxpayer dollars are looted from a state and the progressive response is juvenile insults of conservatives.

 We are onto step 4.

Step 1: It's not really happening

Step 2: Yeah, it's happening, but it's not a big deal

Step 3: It's a good thing, actually

Step 4: People freaking out about it are the real problem

Watching the progressive response has been fascinating. Most blew by step 3 but I did seem  some did try to justify on reparations and anti-poverty grounds. 

None, of course, want to stop this type of thing from happening again or hold anyone in power in Minnesota responsible for letting it occur.  Fraud is just part of their governing  model. 

 
 
 
Gazoo
Masters Silent
3.4.2  Gazoo  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.4    11 months ago

“Probably because all the progressives are saying,,,,,,,”

i must’ve missed that.

”Why are dipshit conservatives SO FUCKING desperate,,,,,,,”

that’s ironic, post 3.4 reeks of desperation.

”Oh, that's right, conservatives will always find something to faux hyperventilate,,,,,,,”

this is ironic too, post 3.4 is a picture perfect example of faux hyperventilation.

”it's all they can do with such undereducated brains.”

This is the funniest part, as if post 3.4 is the epitome of higher education. Lol

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
Professor Quiet
3.4.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Sean Treacy @3.4.1    11 months ago
progressive response is juvenile insults of conservatives

What's stupid are the conservatives trying to make this a partisan thing like "It's the Democrats who WANT fraud! Yeah, that's the ticket!". Fuck stupid conservatives and another attempt at distraction from their disaster-in-chief destroying America which I find a lot bigger a problem than some loan fraud. But whatever, you guys go ahead and keep circle jerking each other pretending Democrats must be up to something sinister without a lick of actual evidence that Democrats did anything wrong. They claim that it "happened under their noses" which is enough to basically claim the whole party is corrupt and Walz should be impeached and a whole bunch of other horse shit that only brain-dead partisan morons would be claiming. If conservatives would grow the fuck up maybe I wouldn't have to keep responding to them with insults fit for juveniles.

 
 
 
Igknorantzruls
Junior Quiet
3.4.4  Igknorantzruls  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.4.3    11 months ago
you guys go ahead and keep circle jerking each other pretending Democrats must be up to something sinister without a lick of actual evidence that Democrats did anything wrong

all as their Orange Oracle shreds our human rights, authorizes war crimes or murder, destroys a century of built alliances, and removes oversight and enforcement to prevent corruption so he can corrupt anything and everything while wiping his fat asz with our Constitution, and all because he should be in a gosh damn institution as he continues to create and spread just so much more pollution, literally and figuratively. He has arranged deals so as he gets cut in on about any and everything. From rebuilding the White house wing to the Gaza waterfront thing. Trump has set up scam after scam that allows, he and his oligarchy, to extort rob and steal, you know, the art of the deal, while forcing the poor till shoulders sore, so he can just take more and more

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
4  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

Citizen journalists doing the work journalists won't, looking up the business that received millions of our taxes:

Here's one with a sign called Lucky ChiChild Care Center Inc:

Same owner owns at least one other daycare, which shares an address with two different state-funded home health services, and the "Global learning center." The listed number is a personal cell.  

One listing gives an alternate number, which leads to...THREE MORE daycare centers, which share an address with a staffing center. (Playful Haven, CMV kids care, and Yanvo) The Lowry address also functions as a summer preschool. And a roofing company. And a registered Muslim charity. And another, defunct childcare operation, Blooming minds They're also on the ccap list, in addition to receiving nutrition assistance money.

I've lost track of how many scams this one provider has going.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
5  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

I can sympathize with this story, but I don't think the author gets the reality:

About 8 years ago we looked into opening a childcare center. We sourced a location. We spoke repeatedly to the state licensing folks. We did all the math. It came down to being over regulated. You had to track the food, the number of toilets, the handwashing stations, the feet from the door to the nearest pot shop, the staff training. It was overwhelming and not worth it frankly. The fire mitigation plan alone was outrageous. We gave up after a year. What I’ve learned now is that I am a damned fool. An idiot. I was supposed to know it was all a song and a dance government joke. Just DO FRAUD guys! I spent all that time trying to figure out if I could possibly be compliant enough when I just needed an address and zero ethics!! I’m not being flippant. I’m being serious. I am dumb. If I had an IQ of 69 and no scruples I’d be rich and town would have a licensed center at the island next door. I am irrationally mad that I spent that much time trying to comply with a farce and then gave up because of what felt like insurmountable regulations.

Unless they are a somali or other protected person with local political clout, the rules would almost certainly be enforced to the letter against them.  Victor Davis Hanson wrote about two tiered regulatory enforcement years ago in his local area of California. Regulations are legion and ruthlessly enforced against companies owned by  Americans.  But if an immigrant set up a food truck or sell beer in a garage next door and the business is invisible to regulators. Don't worry about basic sanitation laws, employment taxes or anything else.  Those rules simply don't apply.  

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
6  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

The extent of the fraud was reported years ago by the local Fox station.  It was ignored and untold millions more have been wasted...

Fox 9 learned that these cloak-and-dagger scenarios now happen almost weekly at MSP. The money is usually headed to the Middle East, Dubai and points beyond. Sources said last year alone, more than $100 million in cash left MSP in carry-on luggage...

Kerns discovered some of the money was being funneled to a Hawala in the region of Somalia that is controlled by the al Shabaab terrorist group.

“I talked to a couple of sources who had lived in that region and I said, 'If money is going to this Hawala do you think it is going to al Shabaab?'" said Kerns. "And he said, 'Oh definitely, that area is controlled by al Shabaab, and they control the Hawala there.'”

He said when the money arrives, whether it was intended for legitimate purposes or not, al Shabaab or other groups demand a cut.

As Kerns dug deeper, he found that some of the individuals who were sending out tens of thousands of dollars’ worth of remittance payments happened to be on government assistance in this country. 

Sources in the Somali community told Fox 9 it is an open secret that starting a daycare center is a license to make money.

The fraud is so widespread they said, that people buy shares of daycare businesses to get a cut of the huge public subsidies that are pouring in.

Government insiders believe this scam is costing the state at least a hundred million dollars a year, half of all child care subsidies.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7  Vic Eldred    11 months ago

This story is unique because the corruption was so blatant. The question is how common is this type of corruption nationwide.

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
7.1  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @7    11 months ago
This story is unique because the corruption was so blatant. The question is how common is this type of corruption nationwide.

Unique?

Did you miss the PPP losses during COVID?

11.5M
Loans Approved
968,524
Organizations approved for loans between $150,000 and $10 million
$793B
Amount Approved
$763B
Amount Forgiven
Includes any accrued interest
Even House Members and Senators of both parties cheated the system
Of course it happened during Trump's first term, so little is done about it and SBA still has 39 unfinished resolutions to prevent future abuse.
 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
7.1.1  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Split Personality @7.1    11 months ago
Even House Members and Senators of both parties cheated the system

Really? Which ones committed fraud? Why weren't they arrested? 

 
 
 
devangelical
Professor Principal
7.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Sean Treacy @7.1.1    11 months ago
Which ones committed fraud? Why weren't they arrested? 

no need to spend millions more to prosecute them, when they probably would've been pardoned this year ...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
7.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  Split Personality @7.1    10 months ago

"Last week independent journalist Nick Shirley did what any mainstream journalist could have done, but didn’t. 

He found a list of Somali-run “day care” institutions funded by the state, then visited them to see what kind of care they were offering. 

The answer is, the kind with no actual kids.

In all, Shirley identified approximately $110 million worth of fraud.

These institutions were supposedly visited by state inspectors — who sometimes noted violations, but didn’t note that the whole thing was a scam. (One of these “educational” facilities even misspelled “learning” on its signage.)

Shirley’s massively viral video — with 116 million views and counting — inspired others to dig into political donation records.

Sure enough, recipients of the daycare funding were making big donations to, you guessed it, Democratic politicians."

Minnesota’s Somali scams get worse by the day — but who will pay?

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
7.1.4  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Split Personality @7.1    10 months ago
Did you miss the PPP losses during COVID?

You mean:

Former Minneapolis mayoral aide and Safari Restaurant co-owner both plead guilty in $250 million feeding our future fraud scheme

MINNEAPOLIS —Two more defendants pleaded guilty for their roles in the $250 million fraud scheme that exploited a federally-funded child nutrition program during the COVID-19 pandemic, announced Acting U.S. Attorney Lisa D. Kirkpatrick.

According to court documents, from approximately April 2020 through January 2022, Abdulkadir Nur Salah of Columbia Heights, Minnesota, and Abdi Nur Salah of St. Paul, Minnesota, knowingly participated in a scheme to defraud a federal child nutrition program designed to provide free meals to children in need. The co-conspirators obtained, misappropriated, and laundered millions of dollars in program funds that were intended as reimbursements for the cost of serving meals to children. The defendants exploited changes in the program intended to ensure underserved children received adequate nutrition during the COVID-19 pandemic. Rather than feed children, the defendants took advantage of the COVID-19 pandemic—and the resulting program changes—to enrich themselves by fraudulently misappropriating millions of dollars in federal child nutrition program funds.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
7.1.5  bugsy  replied to  devangelical @7.1.2    10 months ago

[deleted][✘]

 
 
 
Split Personality
Professor Participates
7.1.6  Split Personality  replied to  Vic Eldred @7.1.3    10 months ago

No surprise there.  You are only outraged when you can complain about Democrats

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
8  Vic Eldred    11 months ago

Just in:

"Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz’s office is pushing back against fraud allegations after a viral video showed visits to multiple childcare centers in the state, including one that allegedly received millions of dollars in state funding despite appearing largely inactive."

Tim Walz pushes back on Minnesota fraud allegations following viral daycare video

"During a Sunday appearance on Fox News' "The Big Weekend Show," Shirley said the alleged fraud in Minnesota was "so obvious" that a "kindergartner could figure out that there is fraud going on."

Shirley also suggested other journalists may be reluctant to pursue similar reporting out of fear of being labeled "Islamophobic" or "racist."

"Fraud is fraud, and we work too hard simply just to be paying taxes and enabling fraud to be happening," he said."

Tim Walz pushes back on Minnesota fraud allegations following viral daycare video

 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
8.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Vic Eldred @8    10 months ago

So, apparently the Minnesota state commissioner tried to cover up the fraud by claiming that the "Learing Center" visited by Nick Shirley had permanently closed a week before his visit despite a local tv station's camera's recording several children being "dropped off" at the center AFTER Nick's video went viral.

Now tell me there's no fraud going on.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
9  Vic Eldred    11 months ago

And of course there is the issue of progressive activist judges:

"A Minnesota judge overturned a jury verdict that had found Abdifatah Yusuf guilty of allegedly stealing $7.2 million from the state Medicaid program.

Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison has filed an appeal. Yusuf’s attorney, Ian Birrell, said the ruling shows his client was wrongly accused."

Judge overturns guilty verdict in $7M Medicaid case

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
10  Jeremy Retired in NC    11 months ago

The (m)ass media like CNN, MS Now, Fox, and the rest call themselves "investigative journalists" yet couldn't find a damn thing on this.  Yet it took a Youtube creator to expose it all in a very short time.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
10.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @10    11 months ago
Yet it took a Youtube creator to expose it all in a very short time.

And it was so easy.

The serious issue still coming is the allegation that officials warned Walz and not only did he do nothing about it, but he retaliated against them. In the meantime, Ilhan Omar's wealth has been increasing dramatically. What is the refugee worth now?

Then there are those who say it was an open secret that all one had to do in Minnesota was open a day care center and hook up with the government.

Still not one lefty dares show up on this article.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
10.2  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Jeremy Retired in NC @10    11 months ago

It’s white supremacy to care about fraud.  That’s the new talking point.  

Seriously 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
10.2.1  Jeremy Retired in NC  replied to  Sean Treacy @10.2    11 months ago
It’s white supremacy to care about fraud.  

That's only because of who is behind it (Omar) and who is benefitting from it (illegals).  If it were anybody else then they would be throwing a tantrum about it.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
11  seeder  Sean Treacy    11 months ago

For context, the collapse of Lehman brothers that triggered the financial crisis is going to be over less than the amount Somalis stole from taxpayers in Minnesota. 

 
 
 
Jeremy Retired in NC
Professor Guide
12  Jeremy Retired in NC    11 months ago

So, is money laundering is now going to be called "Learing Centers"?  Asking for a friend.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
13  Vic Eldred    11 months ago

It gets better:

"Fresh attention is being drawn to a Minnesota election policy that allows a registered voter to "vouch" for up to eight people seeking same-day registration. 

The scrutiny comes as the Walz administration confronts hundreds of millions of dollars lost to social services fraud tied to the state’s Somali immigrant community. Critics pointed to a further wrinkle in Minnesota state law – signed by Gov.  Tim Walz  in 2023 – that provided for "Driver's Licenses For All" regardless of immigration status. The policy also stipulates that the licenses carry no markings indicating citizenship, even though such IDs are commonly used to register to vote.

Under Minnesota law, a registered voter can "vouch" for up to eight other voters’ residency who want to sign up for same-day voter registration without an ID.

The registered voter must go with the person or people to the polling place and sign an oath verifying their address, according to an official fact sheet from the Minnesota Department of State.

"A registered voter can vouch for up to eight voters. You cannot vouch for others if someone vouched for you," the department said in the fact sheet.

Sen. Mike Lee of Utah cited voting rights activist Scott Presler’s accounting of the  voter "vouching" policy  and said his SAVE Act – Safeguarding American Voter Eligibility – would require proof-of-citizenship when registering to vote in federal elections.

The bill could stymie Minnesota’s current policy, as Lee’s language establishes criminal penalties against election officials who register applicants to vote that fail to present documentary proof of citizenship.

"The Senate should send it to President Trump’s desk for signature ASAP," Lee said."


Minnesota lets voters 'vouch' for up to 8 others as fraud scandals fuel calls for federal crackdown

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
13.1  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @13    11 months ago

I asked ChatGPT to evaluate the above article for truthfulness and candor. 

Below is a straight factual and candor check of the article you quoted. I’ll separate what is accurate, what is misleading by implication, and what crosses into propaganda framing, without spin.

✅ What the article gets factually right

1. Minnesota does allow “vouching” for same-day registration

This is accurate.

Under Minnesota law, a registered voter may vouch for up to eight people who are registering to vote on Election Day without ID, by accompanying them to the polling place and signing an oath attesting to their residency.

  • The “up to eight” limit is real.

  • The restriction that you cannot vouch for others if you were vouched for is real.

  • The oath requirement is real.

  • This information is publicly documented by the Minnesota Secretary of State.

✅ True and accurately described.


2. Minnesota enacted “Driver’s Licenses for All”

Also accurate.

In 2023, Gov. Tim Walz signed legislation allowing residents to obtain a Minnesota driver’s license regardless of immigration status.

  • Licenses do not indicate citizenship — also true.

  • These licenses are commonly used as identity documents in daily life.

✅ True.


3. The SAVE Act is promoted by Sen. Mike Lee

Correct.

Sen. Mike Lee supports the Safeguarding American Voter Eligibility Act (SAVE Act), which would require documentary proof of citizenship for federal voter registration and impose penalties on officials who register voters without it.

✅ True.


⚠️ What is misleading by implication

This is where the article fails on candor, even though individual sentences may be technically true.


4. Conflation of welfare fraud with election integrity

The article states:

“hundreds of millions of dollars lost to social services fraud tied to the state’s Somali immigrant community”

Problem:
There is no evidence whatsoever that the Minnesota social-services fraud cases had any connection to voter fraud, voter registration fraud, or election interference.

  • None of the Feeding Our Future, housing stabilization, or autism-services indictments involved:

    • voter registration,

    • election crimes,

    • non-citizen voting,

    • or manipulation of voter rolls.

  • No Minnesota, federal, or DOJ report links Somali-related welfare fraud to elections.

⚠️ This is classic guilt-by-association framing.
The article places fraud next to election law to suggest a relationship that does not exist in evidence.


5. Implication that “Driver’s Licenses for All” enables non-citizen voting

This is misleading.

Key facts omitted:

  • In Minnesota, citizenship is still required to vote.

  • Same-day registration requires signing an oath affirming eligibility — including citizenship — under penalty of felony prosecution.

  • Using a driver’s license (or vouching) does not override the citizenship requirement.

The article implies risk without showing:

  • documented cases of non-citizen voting,

  • prosecutions,

  • audits showing abuse,

  • or data demonstrating exploitation of the vouching system.

⚠️ The implication is speculative, not evidentiary.


6. The phrase “tied to the state’s Somali immigrant community”

This phrasing is selective and overstated.

  • Some defendants in fraud cases were Somali-American.

  • That is not the same thing as fraud being “tied to the Somali community.”

  • The article does not:

    • provide percentages,

    • contextualize population size,

    • or explain that the overwhelming majority of Somali Minnesotans were not involved.

⚠️ This is framing by aggregation, not careful reporting.


❌ What crosses into propaganda

7. Narrative construction rather than evidence

The article constructs a chain like this:

Somali fraud → licenses for all → vouching → election risk → federal crackdown

But it never supplies:

  • a causal link,

  • a documented case,

  • or proof that one step leads to the next.

This is not investigative journalism.
It is narrative assembly.

Each individual fact is true — but the story they are assembled to tell is not supported.

That is the textbook definition of misleading by context.


🧠 Final verdict

Truthfulness:

  • Individual facts are mostly accurate.

Candor:

  • Poor.

  • Key context is omitted.

  • Unrelated issues are deliberately juxtaposed.

Journalistic integrity:

  • Weak.

  • The article relies on implication, sequencing, and emotional priming, not evidence.

Bottom line:

This article does not demonstrate election fraud, does not show misuse of vouching, and does not show that Somali immigration poses an election threat.

It uses a real fraud scandal to launder an unrelated political argument about voting, hoping the reader won’t notice the missing links.


It does keep getting better...

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
13.1.1  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Thomas @13.1    11 months ago
It does keep getting better...

Yes, Thanks for giving the ChatGPT seal of approval to Vic's article. Minnesota, which was just ripped off for billions, allows the same people to vouch for up to 8 voters on election day. Imagine believing the thousands of people involved in committing a billion dollars in fraud would never, ever lie to an election judge. 

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
13.1.2  Freewill  replied to  Thomas @13.1    11 months ago
It does keep getting better..

Not sure how or why any of this could be described as "getting better".  I don't care who is committing the fraud or who in the government may or may not be turning a blind eye to it.  What I DO care about is that the fraud is brought to light, those responsible are prosecuted and held accountable, and that the fraudulent money spigot is turned off.  Can we all agree on that?

The misleading claims made in this article aside, what did you think of the video posted by Sean at #2 ? 

Clearly the video has uncovered some disturbing facts that require further investigation don't you think?  

 
 
 
GregTx
Professor Participates
13.1.3  GregTx  replied to  Thomas @13.1    11 months ago
In Minnesota, citizenship is still required to vote.

What are the requirements to prove citizenship?...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
13.1.4  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @13.1    10 months ago
ChatGPT

Ask it how serious this case is

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
13.1.5  bugsy  replied to  GregTx @13.1.3    10 months ago

‘What are the requirements to prove citizenship?...’

People are afraid to ask because they would be called racist.

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
13.1.6  Thomas  replied to  Freewill @13.1.2    10 months ago
Not sure how or why any of this could be described as "getting better".

Facetiousness is sometimes misinterpreted. 

What I DO care about is that the fraud is brought to light, those responsible are prosecuted and held accountable, and that the fraudulent money spigot is turned off.  Can we all agree on that?

Absolutely and without hesitation.

The misleading claims made in this article aside,

IMO, the member who posted the article in question has posted many similarly misleading articles, all with the expressed intent of downplaying and worse the viewpoints of those who choose to question the veracity and candor of the Trump Administration. This is the reason why I made my post. 

what did you think of the   video posted by Sean at   #2  ? 

I do not watch videos on X. A modest amount of checking yields:

The Brief

    • State officials announced on Monday they are taking a second look at day care facilities featured in a YouTube video investigating Minnesota fraud.
    • The YouTuber claimed to uncover $110 million in fraud during a recent visit to 10 day care facilities in Minnesota.
    • The state says past visits and investigations into those day cares have not uncovered any evidence of fraud.

(FOX 9)   -   Minnesota officials revealed Monday the state is taking a second look at several day care centers featured in a now viral YouTube   fraud investigation   but say past visits and investigations uncovered no hard evidence of fraud.

Day care fraud investigation

The backstory:

In the video, YouTuber Nick Shirley claimed to uncover $110 million in fraud during a visit to 10 day care centers in Minnesota.

The video has since spread rapidly in online circles and has led to a statement from FBI Director Kash Patel over the weekend and   "door to door" day care checks   by Homeland Security investigators in Minnesota on Monday.

Dig deeper:

Speaking on Monday, Department of Children, Youth and Families Commissioner Tikki Brown addressed the video directly.

Brown says each of the 10 facilities featured in the YouTube video has been visited at least once by the state over the last six months as part of standard licensing checks. Now, Brown says the state is now reviewing each site again to check on the claims raised in the YouTube video.

DCYF officials say they currently have 55 open investigations to related to the Child Care Assistance Program. 

No findings of fraud at the day care centers

Local perspective:

Brown said the previous visits were unannounced and children were present at each of the sites during the checks. The state also says the number of children at the day cares were consistent with what was expected at the facilities.

Those past checks have Brown's office wondering when Shirley shot his video. "When were the videos taken," Brown asked. "Were they during times that the center was scheduled to be open? Were they during the weekend?"

FOX 9 wasn't able to determine exactly when Shirley shot the piece, but in the video Shirley attends a Minnesota House fraud prevention hearing that took place on Wednesday, Dec. 17.

Brown says that's why the state is conducting follow-up checks this week.

By the numbers:

Brown says none of the day care centers featured in the YouTube video have had their payment paused by the state due to concerns of fraud. Officials say two of the centers featured in the video are actually closed, including the misspelled "Quality Learning Center" that shut down last week. Brown also says past investigations into some of the centers have uncovered no evidence of fraud.

"There have been ongoing investigations with several of those centers," Brown explained. "None of those investigations have uncovered findings of fraud."

UPDATE: During Monday's press conference, officials said The Quality Learning Center had closed last week. However, officials later sent a correction stating The Quality Learning Center had notified DCYF on Dec. 19 that it was closing, but officials learned Monday afternoon they had decided to remain open.


They are investigating. 

At first blush, I don't think that the video's producers are anything but publicity seeking ideologues. Instead of letting people with no credentials tell us what is happening, we had ought to let the professional journalists cover the stories so we can actually get the truth instead of sensational  videos that do not meet the minimum of journalistic standards.

Of course, you can clearly see the effect of such videos on the slavering masses of people who wish to be pissed at someone, just point them towards someone that isn't liked by a segment of society and say, "Go get 'em!" and the unserious consumers of hatred will oblige.

We should be deeply skeptical of ceding our judgment, let alone our emotions, to people who openly have an axe to grind. The character of these articles and videos makes their purpose obvious: they are designed not to inform, but to stigmatize whole populations of people. That alone renders them prejudicial in intent and of highly dubious quality as sources of truth.

Careful citizens demand better.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
13.1.7  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Thomas @13.1.6    10 months ago

to let the professional journalists cover the stories so we can actually get the truth instead of sensational  videos that do not meet the minimum of journalistic standards.

Your whole post is pure gold.  Your refusal to watch videos on X. And you  proudly don’t watch the video, but declare it doesn’t meet the minenuim journalistic standards because you have magical powers.  God forbid you evaluate something on your own and think for yourself.   Much better to wait until your properly “credentialed” partisan propaganda ministers tell you what to think and the the approved  talking points.  

this is exactly how you had half the country denying the evidence in front of their eyes for years and claim Biden is perfectly fine becuase left wing media tells them he was.  Damn those unapproved videos that showed how frail and mentally out of it, they weren’t approved by the good democrats at abc, therefore they can be ignored.  Just continuing to build an impenetrable echo chamber that ignores everything they aren’t spoon fed.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
13.1.8  Freewill  replied to  Thomas @13.1.6    10 months ago
we had ought to let the professional journalists cover the stories so we can actually get the truth instead of sensational  videos that do not meet the minimum of journalistic standards.

I agree with that for the most part.  As I said, what is shown in the video at least warrants further investigation, as it should regardless of the background of the alleged perpetrators or those who filmed it.  Law enforcement and news outlets like CBS News do appear to be looking into the specific day care centers mentioned in the video.  Let's see where the facts lead.

While I do not condone the loaded language and the political nature of some who are reporting on these issues, it cannot be overlooked that other significant forms of fraud have been occurring, and have been and continue to be prosecuted in Minnesota. Any patterns or potential networks will clearly be a reason to be suspicious of other apparent forms of fraud involving taxpayer funded programs.  That is not prejudice, that is intelligent police work, connecting the dots where possible.  THIS article at CBS News for example says:

Luxury cars, private villas and overseas wire transfers: CBS News obtained dozens of files and photos that reveal how   Minnesota fraudsters   blew through hundreds of millions in taxpayer dollars as part of   one of the biggest   COVID-era fraud schemes.

The files document a spending spree in which defendants, many of Somali descent, took taxpayer money meant to feed hungry children and used it to buy cars, property and jewelry. Videos show them popping champagne at an opulent Maldives resort. In a text message, one defendant boasts: "You are gonna be the richest 25 year old InshaAllah [God willing]."

At the sentencing of a defendant who used taxpayer funds for cars and the Maldives vacation, 24-year-old  Abdimajid Mohamed Nur,  U.S. District Judge Nancy E. Brasel admonished him, saying: "Where others saw a crisis and rushed to help, you saw money and rushed to steal." He was sentenced to 10 years in prison and ordered to pay nearly $48 million in restitution for his role in the fraud scheme.

Nur is one of dozens who siphoned hundreds of millions in stolen taxpayer funds — with questions still swirling about where all the money went.

These cases involved many dozens of people and even included attempts to bribe the jury during the trials.  Please read the entire article if you have time.  There are legitimate concerns here.

Careful citizens demand better.

Indeed.  That is why all of this must be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted regardless of who the perpetrators are so that the abuse of these programs is put to an end and hopefully the lost taxpayer money can be recovered.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
13.1.9  Freewill  replied to  Thomas @13.1.6    10 months ago
We should be deeply skeptical of ceding our judgment, let alone our emotions, to people who openly have an axe to grind. The character of these articles and videos makes their purpose obvious: they are designed not to inform, but to stigmatize whole populations of people. That alone renders them prejudicial in intent and of highly dubious quality as sources of truth.

Agreed.  So lets stick to the facts.  I asked Google AI the following:

Is it fair to say that Somali-Americans have engaged in a large percentage of fraud in Minnesota?

Response:

While Somali-Americans represent a small percentage of Minnesota's overall population, they account for a large majority of the defendants charged in recent high-profile, large-scale fraud cases, which collectively involve an estimated over $1 billion in stolen funds. This has made the community highly visible in the context of major fraud scandals. 
Federal prosecutors and law enforcement have emphasized that the fraudulent activity is concentrated among a minority of individuals, not the entire community. 
Key facts regarding the situation:
  • Case Demographics In major fraud cases related to federal meal programs ("Feeding Our Future"), housing assistance, and other social services, U.S. Attorney's Office data indicates that a significant percentage of defendants are of Somali descent (e.g., 82 of 92 defendants in one group of cases).
  • Scale of Fraud The total estimated amount of money involved in these schemes, largely federal COVID-19 relief funds, is over $1 billion. One U.S. Attorney even suggested the total loss across all high-risk programs could exceed $9 billion.
  • Community Impact Somali-American community leaders and residents have expressed that the actions of a few have damaged the reputation of the entire community, which is estimated to be around 80,000 people in Minnesota. They have urged that the entire community should not be blamed for the actions of those charged.
  • Victims Somali-Americans are also often victims of these schemes, with their identities stolen or services not provided despite being billed to the state. 
In summary, while the statement is numerically accurate regarding the specific, large-scale fraud cases that have dominated headlines, it's crucial to distinguish between the actions of a relatively small number of individuals who leveraged community trust and the entire Somali-American population of Minnesota. 
Do you feel that this is an honest, factual summary?  I do, especially the part at the end I highlighted in red.  We must resist the temptation to lump the entire Somali-American population into a group with several dozen bad actors.  But at the same time we must not be afraid to discuss, investigate, and prosecute such fraud because it might be seen as racially or politically motivated.  Does that make sense?
 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
13.1.10  Thomas  replied to  Freewill @13.1.9    10 months ago
Do you feel that this is an honest, factual summary?

Yes, I do, because this brief summation points us back to Logic 101. 

...it's crucial to distinguish between the actions of a relatively small number of individuals who leveraged community trust and the entire Somali-American population of Minnesota.

For a crucial piece of information, it is obvious by its absence from most of the reportage that I have seen on this site. Much of that so called reporting is bent towards not acknowledging this important distinction, and indeed pushes the unaware reader towards the opposite conclusion.

 
 
 
Freewill
Junior Quiet
13.1.11  Freewill  replied to  Thomas @13.1.10    10 months ago
For a crucial piece of information, it is obvious by its absence from most of the reportage that I have seen on this site. Much of that so called reporting is bent towards not acknowledging this important distinction, and indeed pushes the unaware reader towards the opposite conclusion.

Agreed.  Crucial pieces of information should never be omitted from ANY credible news coverage in my opinion. In no case should the delivery of news be littered with propaganda or political animus, nor should opinions or speculation be passed off as fact when indeed they are not, and nor should facts be ignored or glossed over if not consistent with a preconceived agenda or worldview.  True journalists will journal ALL the facts, especially those involving fraud, without unnecessary injection of any bias or political agenda. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
13.1.12  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  Sean Treacy @13.1.7    10 months ago

Proof of jim treachers quote that not only is  modern journalism is all about deciding which facts the public shouldn’t know because they reflect badly on democrats, but a lot  democrats are actually with that 

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
13.1.13  Thomas  replied to  Sean Treacy @13.1.7    10 months ago

It is no secret that credibility is the name of the game in journalism. The way that credibility is achieved is by the presentation of materials in a truthful and candid manner, by having those materials be confirmed by multiple, independent sources, and having the materials that were produced proven to have been factually correct. Then they need to do this on a consistent basis over time.

If the journalistic source does not consistently perform all of these functions, then it loses some measure of its credibility. The amount of credibility lost depends on how serious and how frequent the failures are. 

Any serious consumer of news should know this. 

So you can choose to live in your fantasy world of emotional innuendo, believing only the stories that buttress your point of view. Anyone can say anything, tell any kind of story. It is up to us to recognize when somebody is not telling the whole story.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
14  Vic Eldred    10 months ago

"Attorney General Pam Bondi on Monday   detailed   four cases of alleged widespread fraud in Minnesota, which have led to the conviction of over 60 people so far and the arrests of 98 people, the majority of whom are of Somali descent.

Minnesota has been   accused   of allowing widespread fraud schemes to infiltrate their publicly funded programs, such as the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program and Medicaid, and steal millions of taxpayer dollars."

Bondi announces 60 people have been convicted of fraud in four Minnesota scams so far

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
14.1  bugsy  replied to  Vic Eldred @14    10 months ago

I understand out of the 98 convicted, 85 of them are Somali descent, but it is racist to point that out.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
14.1.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  bugsy @14.1    10 months ago
but it is racist to point that out.

Of course, but Homeland Security no longer cares about being called names.

Here is the latest:

"Federal authorities are launching a "massive operation" in Minnesota on Tuesday to "identify, arrest, and  remove criminals  who are defrauding the American people," the Department of Homeland Security said. 

"Our investigative agents are conducting a massive operation to identify, arrest, and remove criminals who are defrauding the American people. We will root out this rampant fraud plaguing Minnesota," the agency wrote on X. 

Fox News Digital has reached out to DHS and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

The DHS announcement came a day after the department said it had launched an operation to investigate fraud in the city of Minneapolis after the release of a video by an independent journalist that questioned daycare center operators in the area. 

Videos posted by Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem on Monday showed  Homeland Security  Investigations (HSI) agents going door-to-door questioning businesses. 

Minnesota has come under intense scrutiny in recent weeks after authorities revealed multi-million fraud operations in the state, resulting in dozens of arrests and indictments. 
Over the weekend, FBI Director Kash Patel said the bureau had moved resources into the state, pointing to the  Feeding Our Future investigation , which uncovered an at least $250 million scheme that siphoned federal food aid intended for children during the COVID-19 pandemic. 

Patel's announcement came in the wake of a  viral video posted on  social media Friday by independent journalist Nick Shirley that highlighted alleged fraud involving Minnesota childcare and learning centers. 

In the video, many of the facilities appeared non-operational despite allegedly receiving millions of dollars in government aid."

Feds launch 'massive operation' in Minnesota amid fraud scandal

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
16  shona1    10 months ago

Ummm they also need to relook at the case of the Somali American cop Mohammed Noor who shot dead the Australian women Justine Ruszczyk in 2017...

Always thought that case stunk to high heaven..gets a 12.5 year sentence and he is out in just over 3 years...

They forked out 20 million to her family in  compensation which they gave most of it away...

So where did this money come from obviously the American tax payer and corruption??

I smell a big fat rat...

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
16.1  Vic Eldred  replied to  shona1 @16    10 months ago

My advice is for your government, like mine, not to take in refugees who hate Jews and hate the west.

 
 
 
shona1
Professor Quiet
16.1.1  shona1  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1    10 months ago

To late they are already here..

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
16.1.2  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1    10 months ago

My advice would be not to condemn an entire countries worth of people just because of the actions of a few. 

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
16.1.3  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @16.1.2    10 months ago

First of all, Thomas, we intend to go after the few bad apples and if they violated their pledge of citizenship, they should lose their citizenship and be deported. Those who are not citizens should also be deported.

The other problem we must face is found in the Koran. You know, the book that rejects all other religions. It may not be wise for western nations to invite corruption and/or slaughter.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
16.1.4  evilone  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1.3    10 months ago
...we intend to go after the few bad apples and if they violated their pledge of citizenship, they should lose their citizenship and be deported.

The US justice system has had a system setup, long before Trump, to 'go after the few bad apples' and it doesn't require ICE or DHS to involved until they are called. The system Trump and Co have put in place is hampering 'bad apples' from being tried, convicted and sentenced'. 

The other problem we must face is found in the Koran. You know, the book that rejects all other religions. It may not be wise for western nations to invite corruption and/or slaughter.

Same can be said for the Bible - especially for the more conservative cherry picked versions.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
16.1.5  Vic Eldred  replied to  evilone @16.1.4    10 months ago
The US justice system has had a system setup, long before Trump, to 'go after the few bad apples' and it doesn't require ICE or DHS to involved until they are called.

Then why wasn't it used in the past 4 years?


Same can be said for the Bible

That is an outrageous claim.

 
 
 
evilone
Professor Guide
16.1.6  evilone  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1.5    10 months ago
Then why wasn't it used in the past 4 years?

Of course it has, it just hasn't been used the way YOU want it to.

That is an outrageous claim.

The Christian religion has been used for millennia to slaughter people.

 
 
 
JBB
Professor Principal
16.1.7  JBB  replied to  evilone @16.1.6    10 months ago

Olde Testament commandments that the followers of The God of Abraham (known as Yahweh, God, Allah and infinite other names) enslave or kill all nonbelievers are common texts which are shared by the Jewish Talmud, Christian Bible and Muslim Koran.

 
 
 
bugsy
Professor Participates
16.1.8  bugsy  replied to  evilone @16.1.6    10 months ago

‘Of course it has, it just hasn't been used the way YOU want it to.’

correct. The Biden admin tied ICE and border patrol hands behind their backs and did not allow them to do their jobs.

77 million AMERICANS voted for Trump to use ICE the way they are being used today. 

I remember some famous fraud stating ‘elections have consequences’ 

At least he got that right

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
16.1.9  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1.3    10 months ago
First of all, Thomas, we intend to go after the few bad apples and if they violated their pledge of citizenship, they should lose their citizenship and be deported. Those who are not citizens should also be deported.

Really? The government's, the President's and several members on NT are of the apparent opinion (from their commentary) that any immigrant is bad and not only should they not be let in, they should be actively removed from this country. By what criteria are you assessing their violation of the Pledge of Citizenship? 

The other problem we must face is found in the Koran. You know, the book that rejects all other religions. It may not be wise for western nations to invite corruption and/or slaughter.

Bullshit. The Torah explicitly rejects all other religions  in the Ten Commandments,(“You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3)) at least for the Jewish people. Of course, this is when religions were more regional and recognition of other gods was necessary just to get along with the neighbors.

Later, with the emergence of Christianity and the writings of the early Christian community that produced the New Testament, the writers had grown more sure of themselves and changed to strict monotheism (there is one God instead of don't pray to any other gods) and of course, not to be left out as the new kid on the block, The Qur’an also made these monotheistic claims while recognizing Jews and Christians as “People of the Book.” None of these texts are unique in making exclusive truth claims. That’s what religions do. 

So do we also ban all the Christians? They make the claim of theological exclusivity also. Western History is packed with examples of religious overreach and mass murder.

Can Catholics be trusted when they have a higher allegiance to the Papal authority?

Are we going on another Crusade?

Don't these people all praying to the God of Abraham and yet squabbling amongst each other strike others as ironic?

Or do we recognize that people are raised in different religious traditions, that theology is not a reliable predictor of civic behavior, and that condemning entire populations based on selective readings of religious texts is both illogical and un-American?

At some point, we either hold individuals accountable for their actions or we admit this was never about “a few bad apples” in the first place.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
16.1.10  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @16.1.9    10 months ago
Really? The government's, the President's and several members on NT are of the apparent opinion (from their commentary) that any immigrant is bad and not only should they not be let in, they should be actively removed from this country.

It is really simple Thomas. Immigrants must come in via the legal process.


By what criteria are you assessing their violation of the Pledge of Citizenship? 

Anyone who took the pledge of citizenship and then defrauded US taxpayers is in violation.


 The Torah explicitly rejects all other religions  in the Ten Commandments,(“You shall have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3)) at least for the Jewish people. Of course, this is when religions were more regional and recognition of other gods was necessary just to get along with the neighbors.

Later, with the emergence of Christianity and the writings of the early Christian community that produced the New Testament, the writers had grown more sure of themselves and changed to strict monotheism (there is one God instead of don't pray to any other gods) and of course, not to be left out as the new kid on the block, The Qur’an also made these monotheistic claims while recognizing Jews and Christians as “People of the Book.” None of these texts are unique in making exclusive truth claims. That’s what religions do. 

So do we also ban all the Christians? They make the claim of theological exclusivity also. Western History is packed with examples of religious overreach and mass murder.

Can Catholics be trusted when they have a higher allegiance to the Papal authority?

Neither the Torah nor the Bible contains verses such as:

“And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (persecution) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.”

I shouldn't have to explain this. We see the terrorism that has gone on for almost 60 years now.


Can Catholics be trusted when they have a higher allegiance to the Papal authority?

I don't know of any such Catholic.


Are we going on another Crusade?

Do you even know what they were about?


Don't these people all praying to the God of Abraham and yet squabbling amongst each other strike others as ironic?

The only squabbling I see comes from the progressive wing of the democrat party.


Or do we recognize that people are raised in different religious traditions, that theology is not a reliable predictor of civic behavior, and that condemning entire populations based on selective readings of religious texts is both illogical and un-American?

Unfortunately, not all cultures melt into the pot.


At some point, we either hold individuals accountable for their actions or we admit this was never about “a few bad apples” in the first place.

And at what point do you want to hold the guilty for their actions?

 
 
 
Thomas
Professor Guide
16.1.11  Thomas  replied to  Vic Eldred @16.1.10    10 months ago
It is really simple Thomas. Immigrants must come in via the legal process.

Then why hasn't congress funded the legal process to the point of efficiency, instead leaving people to go through a process that can take many, many years? I will tell you why, immigration is a resonant issue for gaining traction and electioneering.

Anyone who took the pledge of citizenship and then defrauded US taxpayers is in violation.

Sorry, citizenship does not work that way. While fraud is a crime and should be prosecuted as such, the commision of a crime after one has become a citizen is not grounds for removing citizenship.

Neither the Torah nor the Bible contains verses such as:

You conveniently left out the preceding and following verses, maybe you only have knowledge of the one and not the others that conditionalize the use of said violent acts. Historically, these verses have been interpreted to mean there are rules to conflict

Qur’an 2:190 through 193
“Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors.”
“And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al-Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.”
“And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”
“Fight them until there is no fitnah and religion is for Allah. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.”

Classical Tafsir say (per chat GPT):

Classical tafsīr is explicit: in Qur’an 2:190–193, “do not transgress” means do not initiate violence, do not kill non-combatants, do not exceed necessity, and stop fighting when the enemy stops. Both al-Ṭabarī and Ibn Kathīr interpret these verses as rules governing defensive or retaliatory warfare—not a general command to kill nonbelievers.
Issue Sunni (Ṭabarī / Ibn Kathīr) Shiʿite (Ṭabāṭabāʾī / Qummī)
Who may be fought Those who fight you Those who initiate aggression
Initiation of violence Prohibited Prohibited
Non-combatants Protected Explicitly protected
Purpose of fighting End persecution End persecution
Cease condition Mandatory Mandatory
Forced conversion Rejected Rejected

I don't know of any such Catholic.

Then why do you implicate Muslims as being totally controlled by one out of context verse in the Qur'an?

Do you even know what they were about?

The Crusades weren’t about theology. They were about land control and dominance. Christians and Muslims fighting over Jerusalem while Jews were told, implicitly or explicitly, “What are you doing here?”

That's the sanitized version of "The Crusades were about land control and who gets to pee on the Wailing Wall."

The only squabbling I see comes from the progressive wing of the democrat party.

You obviously have blinders on. 

Unfortunately, not all cultures melt into the pot.

Is that a self awareness issue? Because the “melting pot” has always required effort from the host society as well as newcomers.

And at what point do you want to hold the guilty for  their actions?

Now, individually, under the law, and with due process, but without smearing whole populations or rewriting citizenship into a conditional privilege.

 
 
 
Vic Eldred
Professor Principal
16.1.12  Vic Eldred  replied to  Thomas @16.1.11    10 months ago
Then why hasn't congress funded the legal process to the point of efficiency, instead leaving people to go through a process that can take many, many years? I will tell you why, immigration is a resonant issue for gaining traction and electioneering.

Illegal migration is a tool for winning elections that democrats would be hard pressed to win.

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
16.2  seeder  Sean Treacy  replied to  shona1 @16    10 months ago
Always thought that case stunk to high heaven

It absolutely did.  One of the worst police shootings we've seen. 

 
 
 
Sean Treacy
Professor Principal
17  seeder  Sean Treacy    10 months ago

“Instead of demonizing our Somali community we’re going to welcome more in. Instead of cutting programs we’re going to enhance them.” 

Tim Walz...

He's intent on destroying his state. 

 
 
 
charger 383
Professor Silent
17.1  charger 383  replied to  Sean Treacy @17    10 months ago

Putting outsiders over Citizens.  Takers over taxpayers

 
 
 
Gazoo
Masters Silent
17.1.1  Gazoo  replied to  charger 383 @17.1    10 months ago

That seems to be a problem a lot of dem politicians have.

 
 

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