Why Are Americans Still Stuck Paying for Oil Wars When EVs Cost Less to Drive?

This is crystalline MAGA.

Trump is screwing the average American, and shoveling billions to his Big Oil donors.

... and MAGA applauds...

... crystalline...

Let's take a closer look a the math.  The example is driving 100 miles.  An EV consumes 30 Kwh.  A gas car consumes 4 gallons of fuel (@ 25 mpg).  

Taxes on gasoline are currently $0.5 to $0.6 per gallon.  That's $2.00 to $2.40 per 100 miles (assuming fuel efficiency of 25 mpg).  So, taxing EVs the same would increase the price of electricity by $0.07 to $0.08 per Kwh.  That increases the cost of charging by almost a third.  The claimed $6.00 EV charge (@ $0.20 per Kwh) now becomes $8.10 to $8.40 (@ $0.27 to $0.28 per Kwh). 

Furthermore fast charging would require 32 to 34 Kwh to achieve a 30 Kwh charge (due to AC-DC conversion loss) which adds another $0.56 to $1.12 to the cost of charging.  So now the cost of an EV traveling 100 miles becomes $8.66 to $9.52.  

Traveling 100 miles in a gasoline car at a cost of $9.52 requires a gas price of $2.38 per gallon.  A more typical price of $3.00 per gallon means a 100 mile trip would cost $12.00.  

Is the added inconvenience of finding EV chargers and long wait times to recharge really worth saving a couple of dollars for a 100 mile trip?

Small problem: taxes are arbitrary. Any value may be assigned. Doing hypotheticals on top of arbitrary is just silly.

Small problem: taxes are arbitrary. Any value may be assigned. Doing hypotheticals on top of arbitrary is just silly.

I'm applying the same amount of taxes to both types of vehicles.  There's nothing arbitrary in the data or math.

It's not my fault the author did an incomplete (or biased) analysis.

taxes are arbitrary.

There will have to be an EV tax.  Roads don't maintain themselves, and EVs wear out roads faster than their ICE counterparts because they weigh 30% more.  Even California... greeniest of the greeny lands... is considering a mileage tax on EVs.

Just eliminate all subsiidies. Gas (not counting any pointless wars) will rise to $10-$15 per gallon. Then an EV tax will be... universal... because there will be no ICE.

Gas in Europe, where it's subsidized but not as ridiculously, costs $7-$8 per gallon, without wars.

On a level playing field, ICE is crushed (pun).

Gas (not counting any pointless wars) will rise to $10-$15 per gallon.

And those people driving 15 year old cars because they can't afford a new one?

Those tens of millions of people?

Do their kids just go hungry?  What exactly are you willing to sacrifice because you happen to be impatient about EV adoption?

Tax the rich

Tax the rich

Why don't we do something more realistic like run cars on pixie dust.  Or we could let everybody ride unicorns.

It's interesting that you consider taxing the rich to be more absurd than unicorns.

It's interesting that you consider taxing the rich to be more absurd than unicorns.

It's not particularly interesting or even a little unusual to hear a liberal say "tax the rich" as some sort of magical solution that will supposedly overcome any and all challenges that their obviously unworkable idea presents.  It's a wonderfully convenient bit of foolishness that allows them to wallow in their own self righteousness without ever having to actually think about math.

• Free healthcare?  Tax the rich.
• Improve education?  Tax the rich.
• Repair infrastructure?  Tax the rich.
• Forgive student loans? Tax the rich.
• Slavery reparations?  Tax the rich.
• Mandatory EVs?  Tax the rich.
• Save Social Security?  Tax the rich.
• Save Medicare?  Tax the rich.

Because rich people have unlimited money and will just sit still while you take it all to blow it on virtue signaling fantasies.  Riiiight.

Have you nothing but strawmen? 

Disappointing....

Just can't shake this addiction to rational thought.

Out of curiosity, why are you so insistent that people drive what you want them to?

It started out as hating pickup trucks, and now you've moved on to combustion engines generally.

Why can't other people just do what they can afford?

why are you so insistent that people drive what you want them to?

I never said that.

I don't give a fuck what they drive. OTOH, I'd rather they not kill my grandchildren... I suppose you either don't believe that burning fossil fuels is deadly for the planet, or you don't care about your grandchildren - those two things pretty much go together.

I think they're stupid to pay more than they need to... but people have the right to be stupid.

I don't give a fuck what they drive.

Which is why you advocate banning pickup trucks and making gasoline so expensive poor people can't get to work.   

I suppose you either don't believe that burning fossil fuels is deadly for the planet, or you don't care about your grandchildren - those two things pretty much go together.

*eyeroll*

Inane self-righteousness simply because the conversation has gotten away from you?

Disappointing.....

I thought BMW drivers had a near monopoly on car snobbery.  

I think they're stupid to pay more than they need to... but people have the right to be stupid.

Riiiiight.  Because the half of America driving 15 year old (or older cars) went into the dealership and said.... "y'know, I'm debating between the $40k Tesla and this 2004 Camry for $4000.  I just can't decide which color I like better...."   

Yeah.  That's exactly how that happened.

Your privilege is showing.   

you advocate banning pickup trucks

You cannot win an argument by making up lies, you know...

Tesla??

Not at any price. Nazimobil...

Pre-MAGA, I once got into a foodfight with some wacko survivalist-militiia types. They accused me of saying stuff I'd never said. Since we hadn't been chatting very long, I assumed they were intentionally making shit up. But they were precise, which made no sense.

I realized that while they were indeed making shit up... they didn't realize what they were doing. They "knew" what a progressive would say... so that's what they "heard".

'Course... That's only possible in conjunction with intellectual sloppiness.

“OTOH, I'd rather they not kill my grandchildren...”

Then maybe it’d be a good idea to sell one house and live year round out of the other? Jetting about between two continents creates a pretty large carbon footprint.

Is the added inconvenience of finding EV chargers and long wait times to recharge really worth saving a couple of dollars for a 100 mile trip

I get your point but if you happen to factor in how the technology is improving so fast it will soon be a far greater savings with less and less wait time with charge stations being installed all over the US.

When one factors in all of the costs from the result of carbon fuels to our health and our climates health, there are significant impacts that would save US A ll far more dollars and less chances of environmental devastation which is always a risk. 

 If you factor in the costs of our wars in the Middle East, many of which we were pressured into by Big Oil, the savings increase significantly. The War to liberate Kuwait, BS Iraq war due to magic Mushroom Clouds hallucinated, and the ridiculous attempt to Nation Build Afghanistan have cost US Trillions. Any move towards green energy is a positive for our country. Trump has certainly sabotaged that, but we could still turn that around.

I'm not as informed as you or Bob, but i'll still insert my two nonsense on occasion.  

“So, taxing EVs the same,,,,,”

An ev needs to be taxed more than it’s ice counterpart due to the extra weight the ev carries. Extra weight means extra wear and tear on the road, and extra particle and microplastic pollution from faster wearing tires.

Every argument I seem to hear against EVs reminds me of the similar arguments people used to make against cars when they were all riding horses.   There aren't any gas stations, they can't go very far, can't tow heavy loads, the current mode of transportation works, etc, etc.

All of that was true, BTW.  Yet look where we are today.

The thing is... every argument I seem to hear from the EV apostles sounds like the very first car salesman trying to convince everybody to buy one right now because "there will be a gas station on every corner".  Well.... there might be someday... but I need to get Ma' to church this morning.

EVs are the future of local transportation, just like cars were the future back then.  It's just a question of timing.

Non-fossil fuel methods are the future of energy.  It's just a matter of timing.

Blaming a president who has been in office all of 15 months for lack of EV ubiquity is about the dumbest thing ever.  We're about 2 1/2 steps on the crazy ladder from "EVs are a human right" and 3 1/2 steps from blue hair and septum piercings being mandatory.

I don't give a damn about all those fancy economic and financial arguments about comparing the costs and which one is a little bit cheaper than the other. I give a damn about which one will delay the inevitablility of planet Earth becoming uninhabitable longer.  I'm more concerned about my grandson being able to take a deep breath 50 years from now than I am about the income of coal miners.  Maybe the time spent with arguing the merits of gas vs electricity should be devoted to figuring out how humanity can survive on Mars.

You're absolutely right, of course. 

The point I've been trying to make is that moving to alternative energies not only helps save the planet, but saves money, too.

“I give a damn about which one will delay the inevitablility of planet Earth becoming uninhabitable longer.”

Then buy an ev, Buzz. Ev’s will supposedly save the planet. But don’t buy a tesla ev, even if it’s the only choice you have. Saving the planet isn’t worth making elon richer.

I think ev cars are more popular and populous here than anywhere else in the world, but I haven't needed a car since I got here and I don't want one. But thanks for the advice anyway.

TRUE!

The very best car - most economical and least harmful for the planet - is... no car at all.

The public transportation here has to be the best in the world - superfast trains, subways, buses and we use Uber and taxis,. We live within walking distance of everything we need anyway.

It's a shame you can't get YouTube. There's a brilliant channel called "Not Just Bikes", run by Jason Slaughter, a Canadian (of course) from London (Ontario, of course), who lives in the Netherlands (of course). Jason visits cities all over the world, covering urbanism from all angles.

Cars are not good for humanity.

I lived in London (Ontario) for a year.  I spent my Freshman year at University of Western Ontario in Pre-Meds, but switched to Sophomore year ARTs at McMaster University in my home town of Hamilton for my second year, and graduated the next year.

By the way, I have a whole bunch of Not Just Bikes programs on bilibili. Watched a little bit of a couple of them and I'm going to spend some time watching them.

It's kind of funny that people think that switching to EV will eliminate the need for oil.  Almost like they don't know how much of it is used in the manufacture and use of their precious cars.

people think that switching to EV will eliminate the need for oil

Who said that?

OTOH, getting rid of 90% would be good...

The ONLY part is the fuel.  The rest of the vehicle requires oil.  Not as friendly as people think.

Gemini:

Do EVs use oil?

The short answer is yes, but not in the way you’re likely used to with a gasoline car.
​While Electric Vehicles (EVs) don’t have internal combustion engines that require motor oil to lubricate pistons and valves, they still rely on various fluids to keep their high-tech components running smoothly.
​
1. Where EVs Use Oil
​In an EV, "oil" is typically used as a lubricant and coolant for the drivetrain components rather than a byproduct of combustion.
​The Transmission (Reduction Gear): Most EVs use a single-speed transmission. This gearbox requires specialized gear oil (often a synthetic transmission fluid) to lubricate the gears and bearings.
​The Electric Motor: Some high-performance electric motors are "oil-cooled." The oil circulates through or around the motor windings to pull heat away, which is more efficient than air cooling in high-stress situations.
​Differentials: Just like gas cars, EVs have differentials that allow the wheels to turn at different speeds during a corner. These contain heavy-duty gear oil.

​2. Key Differences from Gas Cars
​The way you maintain these fluids is vastly different from a traditional car:
Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)                                                       Electric Vehicle (EV)
Purpose Lubricates hot engine parts; cleans soot/carbon.            Lubricates gears and cools the motor.
Contamination
Gets dirty quickly due to heat and combustion byproducts.           Stays clean; operates in a sealed,                                                                                                                            "cold" environment.
Change Interval Every 5,000 to 10,000 miles.                                    Often "fill-for-life" or every 100,000+ miles.
Oil Filter Requires regular replacement.                                              Usually no user-serviceable filter.

Let me repeat: "Often "fill-for-life" or every 100,000+ miles."

Could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a simple search before posting bullshit???

Internal Combustion Engine (ICE)                                                       Electric Vehicle (EV)Purpose Lubricates hot engine parts; cleans soot/carbon.            Lubricates gears and cools the motor.Contamination Gets dirty quickly due to heat and combustion byproducts.           Stays clean; operates in a sealed,                                                                                                                            "cold" environment.Change Interval Every 5,000 to 10,000 miles.                                    Often "fill-for-life" or every 100,000+ miles.Oil Filter Requires regular replacement.                                              Usually no user-serviceable filter.

Look at that.  Still requires oil.  

It's kind of funny that people think that switching to EV will eliminate the need for oil.

It just makes the oil supply go farther.

Holy fuck, BOTH of you!!!

It's BURNING fossil fuel that's killing the planet. Lubrication needs care against spills, like a zillion other chemicals, but that's manageable.

Holy fuck, BOTH of you!!!

Addicted to rational thinking.

It's BURNING fossil fuel that's killing the planet.

Fossil fuel use goes back 70,000 years.  For reference, the Bronze Age didn't start until about 5400 years ago.  We've literally been burning shit for fuel for tens of thousands of years. We're not going to stop in two decades simply because a few eco warriors are upset about it.   

You are also not going to be able to stop that with electric cars, just like you can't pay for everything you want by taxing the rich and you can't fly by flapping your arms.

We are going to be burning fossil fuels for at least the next century.  No amount of angry liberal demands or teenage girls shouting "How dare you" is going to stop that. 

As I've been saying.... it's about timing.  The transition is going to take a very, very long time.

Holy fuck, BOTH of you!!!

Yeah, throwing a tantrum is going to not make you look childish.

It's BURNING fossil fuel that's killing the planet.

This planet has been through BILLIONS of years of volcanic emissions, impacts from objects in space (asteroids, meteors, etc.), solar flares, radiation blasts from the sun and further, and god knows what else.  Humans have only been here for the blink of an eye.  The industrial age only happened within the last few hundred years.  And THAT is the biggest "threat"?  That's what has your panties in a wad?   

But, lets look at it realistically.   The worlds infrastructure is no where close to being able to support moving away from fossil fuels. No.  Where. Close.     Everyday items contain oil in one form or another.  EVERYTHING.  

That it does.  But we are a very long way from not needing oil.

Have you been drinking your own kool-aid, or are you just being silly?

STUPID

STUPID

STUPID

STUPID

Have you been drinking your own kool-aid, or are you just being silly?

I'll take that as a begrudging agreement.

Because if you thought we were wrong you'd tell us how.