Double masking for COVID-19: Why Fauci recommends wearing two masks at once
By: Amanda Capritto (CNET)
Wait one doggone minute. Weren't we told that wearing masks reduces spread of the virus? Weren't we shown videos of scientific experiments demonstrating how masks control spread of droplets (and aerosols) by coughs and sneezes? Weren't we educated by scientific data that demonstrated masks ensure that six feet of separation controls spread of the virus?
The size of droplets and aerosols aren't altered by the virus. The droplets and aerosols are same whether it's influenza virus or coronavirus. We have been told that the virus is spread through droplets and aerosols and the purpose of the mask to control spread of those droplets and aerosols.
Now Dr. Anthony Fauci is pulling another rabbit out of his backside. And apparently we are supposed chase that rabbit and ignore what we've been told all along. Masks really haven't been about controlling spread of the virus; masks have been about protecting ourselves.
According to Dr. Fauci's latest expert advice, we didn't need to shut down anything. Better masks would have avoided everything we've gone through. It's just common sense as Dr. Fauci says.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The latest recommendation for slowing and stopping the spread of COVID-19: double masking. Dr. Anthony Fauci endorses double masking, the practice of wearing two face masks, because "it just makes common sense," the chief medical advisor to the president told NBC News' Today.
He's not wrong. Because layering masks reduces the porosity of your face covering, it's more likely to do a better job of protecting you from infectious respiratory droplets -- just like layering jackets protects you from the cold and just as an N95 (which is less porous) has a better shot at protecting you from environmental smoke while a cloth mask (more porous) doesn't stand a chance.
It's not just about common sense, though. The concept of double masking is backed by some scientific studies, and no, wearing two masks won't suffocate you. Here's what to know about wearing two masks to slow the spread of COVID-19.
The science behind double masking
Dr. Fauci's recommendation comes in light of new strains of SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, that are thought to be more transmissible than the primary strain of SARS-CoV-2.
"With a more transmissible virus, that means every exposure has increased likelihood of leading to spread," says Andrea Love, an immunologist and microbiologist. "We must be more stringent with our behaviors now, including social distancing, minimizing trips to public places, avoiding indoor spaces and always wearing a mask."
"But, not just any mask will do," Love emphasizes. "Quality matters."
Masks work by trapping and blocking respiratory droplets that contain virus particles, Love explains. "The more physical barriers implemented, the more of these droplets you can block, thereby reducing the risk to yourself and others around you," she says. Ideally, the more layers the better, especially if you're wearing a thin cloth face cover. Even if you wear surgical masks, which generally have two thin layers already, you can still benefit from doubling up, Love says.
It's important to understand that cloth masks, like the ones worn routinely by most people, were intended to be a stopgap measure, Love says. Many cloth face covers offer little to no protection, she says, depending on the material, number of layers and fit, which is why health experts recommend layering.
In fact, three layers is really best: A recent (not yet peer-reviewed) study tested 11 mask materials and found that masks are more protective when they have three layers, two tightly woven cloth layers with a nonwoven, high-efficiency filter material sandwiched in between. If you don't already have a mask with three layers, you can mimic this by wearing a cloth mask and a surgical mask -- more about that is below.
When to wear two masks
If you're walking outdoors and aren't in proximity to people outside of your household, a single mask should suffice, Love says. If you plan to be near people who aren't in your household, however, even outdoors, "a simple solution is to double-mask."
Will wearing two masks make it hard to breathe?
Wearing two masks shouldn't make it any harder to breathe, Love says. Several studies have demonstrated that wearing masks doesn't impede oxygen consumption (even in adults over 65). "The size of an oxygen molecule is orders of magnitude smaller than the pore sizes of masks," Love says, but the problem is "many people don't realize the difference between discomfort and a true physiological effect."
Even with two face masks, you'll still be able to get the oxygen you need and dispel carbon dioxide from your body. Two masks might not feel comfortable at first, but it's still safe to wear them.
Sure, it may take some getting used to, especially if you wear two masks while exercising. You may get sweatier than usual as the weather warms up. But a little discomfort is a lot better than contracting COVID-19 or being responsible for spreading it.
How to properly double-mask
Simply wearing one cloth mask on top of another might improve the protectiveness of your face covering, but a different combination may help more.
If you wear a cloth mask on top of a surgical mask, you can mimic the filter-cloth combo found to be more protective in studies. The surgical mask acts as a filter and the cloth mask provides an additional layer of protection while improving the fit, Love says. If your two masks fit well, this combination "should produce an overall efficiency of over 90% for particles 1 micron and larger, which corresponds to the average size of respiratory aerosols that are most important in mediating transmission of SARS-CoV-2."
Like Dr. Fauci told Today, "If you have a physical covering with one layer, you put another layer on, it just makes common sense that it likely would be more effective."
The information contained in this article is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as health or medical advice. Always consult a physician or other qualified health provider regarding any questions you may have about a medical condition or health objectives.
Tags
Who is online
65 visitors
Believe whatever you want to believe. But, at this point, believing anything Anthony Fauci says ain't common sense.
That's why I listen to the evidence. But considering Dr. Fauci is an expert in virology, listening to him is common sense. Certainly more so then listening to someone without any relevant scientific expertise or acumen.
On MSN.Com, the Fauci page seem to be updated every 20 minutes or so
Shotguns were invented for the same reason.
Inquiring minds would like to ask how many masks do you wear when you are in public? What is your favorite type?
I only wear one mask at a time. I am currently wearing Hanes cloth masks because that's what is available. At first I used surgical masks I had on hand but my stock was limited. And I wasn't going fight to acquire more.
The masks I have now were manufactured in Vietnam. I have found masks that have been manufactured in many other countries but haven't found any manufactured in the United States. And I haven't found any masks claiming to have FDA clearance or approval. Not many I have found indicate OSHA compliance, either.
The masks I have found locally are adequate for controlling spread of exhaled droplets and aerosols. I haven't found any locally that I would trust to provide protection from a virus, no matter how many I could wear.
K-N95 (widely available in shops and online) from China are FDA approved. And surgical 3-ply mask from China are widely available on the West Coast too!
K-N95 doesn't mean anything, that's just a label. That hyphen raises doubts about the product. There is a difference between FDA compliant and FDA approved, too. FDA approval requires submitting test data for review by the FDA. FDA compliant only means that the product was manufactured according to requirements but doesn't provide any assurance the product has actually been tested.
Skimping or skipping the quality control step does allow the masks to be cheaper. And it's certainly easier to produce mass quantities of masks by neglecting quality controls.
Medical grade masks are not available locally. And this is Minnesota which only highlights how the middle of the country is treated differently than the coasts. I am not going to travel all over the place and fight with other people over supplies of questionable quality. That only increases risk, anxiety, and wastes resources.
Nerm, forgive me, but while some in here may need the "informative" lecture. . . that ain't me. I am up on my understanding of types of masks and facial coverings. Also, I'm knowledgeable about the politics that have landed our nation in the predicament we find ourselves.
Now, since you wrote @1.2.4: "I only wear one mask at a time. I am currently wearing Hanes cloth masks because that's what is available. At first I used surgical masks I had on hand but my stock was limited. And I wasn't going fight to acquire more."
I must warn you that it highly likely that you are not working to 'scale' for the benefit of your own safety, or loved ones. Masking is evolving along with the virus and its transmission methods. We, you, can't afford a luxury to remain mask static-illiterate-combative. We and those you love, are depending on you to stay on top of the changing parameters of this virus and personal protection measures.
It is better to not get this virus at all; then to struggle with its symptoms or 'long-hauler' effects for any duration.
The fight has come to you; don't just sit or come here pouting about what is - fight for the PRIVILEGE to keep breathing the breath of life!
it all started with the Cold War...
Because everyone knows how safe a desk would be...
I remember mooning the Ruskies.
Our school was a newly constructed 1950s modern building with glass walls. We had to march out into the hall to duck and cover. Head down against the wall and butt up to moon the Ruskies. Take that Khrushchev!
Is this where we are headed?
Yes, that is exactly what they want. These authorities get their rocks off by seeing how many masks they can scare people into wearing. It is a big contest. These individuals do not really spend their waking hours trying to defeat this pandemic ... they are just sitting around thinking up goofy tricks to play on the public. A real power/ego trip.
That is a good one! LOL
You have to admit there is some credence to the image. An actual progression of events was that there was nothing to worry about. Then, it wasn't necessary for the public to wear masks and only those on the front line needed them. Then it was necessary for the public to wear masks. Cloth of double or triple thickness preferably. Then, such masks were not sufficient and only N95 or doubling up on masks cut the mustard. At each stage we are confidently assured of what is necessary, only to find out later that it isn't enough. It get's a bit tiresome.
In my opinion, little of it makes any difference. Trying to control a pandemic may be like trying to combat a hurricane with an umbrella. My time in the Army taught me a lot about Nuclear, Chemical and Biological threats, or NBC. The amount of actual decontamination procedures necessary to protect against a virus is not realistically sustainable. Washing hands, social distancing and wearing masks may help to a degree but in order to be truly safe, one must decontaminate every single thing one comes into contact with or brings into their home. Every last thing. Simply not going to happen.
So, it may not be a case of cynical government efforts to see what they can get the public to do, although it may be, but more likely, to make the public feel like they have some control over what is going on in order to prevent panic (or, more likely, to achieve some political goal) when, really, they have very little control at all.
Initially there was nothing to worry about. If the cases were small and contained. IF!
Then there was a realization that the pandemic was going to hit us hard and the focus was on the resources of the medical workers (and their safety).
Then the need to take precautionary measures (lock-downs, social distancing, masks, etc.) at a societal level. Then as the worldwide knowledge of the coronavirus and the pandemic itself grew, the recommendations were adjusted accordingly.
We were learning as we went. We still are.
I truly do not understand why any of this seems unusual to people. It is as if some presume that the sciences magically know everything. How is it that people do not recognize that in spite of all we have accomplished as a species, we are still learning about the complex, dynamic environment in which we exist?
In my case, I am in awe at (when the entire world is working on a problem) the progress we have made against such an unknown and aggressive infliction. Where some inexplicably see incompetence (or -worse- deceit) I see impressive competence.
Well, Donald "The Fool" Trump was president and he thought he did his level best to destroy our health with political optimism about a virus that could give a damn about hope! The fool used to hover over the scientists and pick and vex them until they had no choice but to muddle the message. And you act as if you did not see the fool in his role as BullPattier-in-Chief lying and obfuscating optimistically for months as the sick, dead, and dying metastasized all over our fair country.
The scientists never professed themselves to know it all about a novel virus. That's why it is called that. Indeed, none of the doctors under Biden speak as know it alls. They are simply able to speak truth to and through this president! Where the former one was a complete and I am to understand belligerent who's acumen took pride in knowing when and where the scientists were doing end-runs around him to get to the public with some better information it could use properly.
But Trump supporters can keep on looking past the masks. Trump was on my television in Mara Lago with Minority Leader McCarthy in a photograph inside of six-feet of each other-maskless both. Of course, McCarthy should put himself into quarantine when he gets back to Washington, D.C. - he should. And, we will see when he appears in public Capitol-style soon or again!
And I will not argue against it. This is because I don't have a God's eye view of all that occurred. I can only say that, to me, it is obvious that much of what you consider as "learning as we went along" was heavily contaminated by politics and so, can't realistically be described as "learning".
It is also my suspicion that, no matter what we attempted, things wouldn't have turned out much different than it has. I am very suspicious of the idea that we have the ability and tech to contain something like this pandemic.
In any case, regardless of your argument, it is evident that assurances given at any particular time aren't really worth much. At the moment, the assurance, or at least, the strongly held belief, that double masking or N95 would have a significant impact on the fight against Covid is a little hard to believe based on the numerous changes that have occurred to date.
This isn't to say that nothing has been learned. It is likely, should politicians do the rare thing and be prepared for the next pandemic, what we learn from this one might have an impact, perhaps significant, on the next one. However, concerning this one, I have little reason to believe anyone in charge has any real control over what's going on with this one. We have a vaccine, yet if the media is to be believed, this doesn't actually solve our problem. In other words, our political lords point fingers and make claims about their own effectiveness in combating the pandemic, but really, it seems to me all that is happening is an effort to help some on the edges of a juggernaut.
Lastly, I wouldn't use the word "incompetence". That isn't how I think of the efforts of those trying, in spite of politics, to combat the pandemic. There are obviously those who are doing their utmost to combat it. If I had to summarize my complaint it would be that, politically, the effort isn't to combat the virus but, rather, to weaponize it as a tool against political opponents. That is Dr. Fauci's biggest weakness. He is supposedly a scientist trying to operate in a political environment.
An example of what I speak of is back when he said the public didn't need N95 masks. That they should be saved for front line workers. As stated, that isn't logically supportable. What is logically supportable would be to say, N95 is necessary for anyone wishing to avoid contamination from the virus but, due to limited supply, such masks should be saved for those with highest risk. Politically, he couldn't say that, though, as it would decrease the likelihood of the general population from attempting to acquire them for themselves.
In the end, I think Fauci is being as honest as the political environment allows him to be, but I think that, had he had no political constraints at all, he would be saying something different.
Be clear. Do you wear any mask at all or nothing to cover your mouth, nose, or breathing, talking, or coughs? Let's talk from experiences here and now! By now the whole country has "stories" of the pandemic to share.
Have you been made aware that people do go in and come out of the hospital ICU beds alive from COVID-19, yes? Science is making proper 'notes' on the virus. Indeed, it is said that Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani survived COVID through medical therapeutics and hospitalizations. So what does that say about doctors "in-charge"?
It does not strike me that Dr. Fauci has a personal political ego. But, if you must insult the esteemed scientists who live (and 'die) by their reputations, who am I do try to change your mind?
Dr. Fauci did say the N95's were the best back then, but immediately public policy became (see Surgeon General 2020) "home-made" masks are more expedient: Leave the short-supply (and send them in as "donations" to first-line medical centers/workers).
I know it for a fact, because when the first mention of mask wearing was initially starting I, myself, was in possession of "beaucoup" N-95's wearing in public! Used to wear that brand/type when it was asked that we do not; but, they were mine to do with as a saw fit!
This 'last' is utter bull patty. President Biden, has liberated the scientific community as best it can be to distribute and disseminate medically truth as it sees fit - certainly in a non-chaotic, orderly fashion. That you feel there are remnants of politics still hanging around-well, you can bet your 'skippy' it is better than it was this time all 2020!
Anything that reaches society through government will be tainted by politics. Why some people choose to focus on the normal ugliness of a working society rather than give credit to the scientists, medical workers and the billions of people on the planet who have done their parts (e.g. wearing masks, social distancing, ...) is beyond me. This incessant attacking of Fauci, for example, makes me sick. People behave as if the man is a political animal playing games with the health of the nation. He is, in contrast, an expert trying to keep the public informed while working within the constraints of politics. For most of the time, he had to deal with a PotUS who was trying to downplay the pandemic while trying to communicate sketchy information.
This is the sole example that people use to blast Fauci (other than him not being omniscient). It is always back to the moment when Fauci mislead the public in order to maintain the supply of masks for medical workers. One can always blast someone for being dishonest but in this case who benefited? It is not as though Fauci was benefiting; he was trying to ensure the safety of the medical workers and in turn keep the strength of the active force combating this virus as strong as possible. Constantly going back to this point (and that is what people do, watch it) strikes me as looking for excuses to attack instead of considering Fauci as a whole and making an objective judgment on what he has done and why he has been doing it.
I am sure that is true; Trump especially influenced him. But reality imposes the ugliness of politics. Fauci is not the only individual hobbled by the power of politics.
Because that's where most people live, I'd guess. I think most people do give credit to Joe Average Scientist and Josephine Front Line worker.
Perhaps, but he's now a political animal as much as anything else. It comes with the job. And not always unjustly so. Trump didn't do everything wrong, either, but he got it worse than Fauci ever has. Yes, Trump was much more often the author of his own situations, but he literally couldn't do anything that didn't get attacked.
Fauci, for the most part, tried to do his best, as I think he does now, but even so, he has said things that aren't true. In the Washington Post video you provided above, for instance.
I wasn't actually thinking of Fauci specifically when I wrote that. Nor do I think things would have been significantly different concerning the seemingly ever changing mask guidelines if he had been under a different president. He just happened to be the mouthpiece for a concerted effort of health care workers trying to give out the best they had. My point had more to do with the idea that we can control something like the pandemic if we just... whatever. I'm not sure that we actually can to the extent we are led to believe, even now under a different president. Sort of a Jurassic Park sort of thing where someone always think they can control the uncontrollable.
The other point that comment was intended to convey was that, at least in my case, and as far as masks go, I knew from the beginning the only suitable mask was the same N95 worn by by the medical community. Had any other mask been suitable, the medical community would have been wearing them. So, it was intended to show the frustration many feel about not only being sold on the seemingly ever changing guidelines on masks, but that what came before whatever the current iteration of mask requirements were at a given time, what came before made one feel like, well, what was the point then? And now we're up to double masks and people get tired of it, as if the people making the recommendations, Fauci included, don't really have a clue. It's framed as just being common sense. So, where was that common sense 9 months ago? That is what it starts to feel like and part of why Fauci gets heat.
I have been disappointed at the attacks on Fauci. Some people portray him as a liar and a buffoon. Pointing to one lie (downplaying masks to preserve the inventory for the front-line medical workers) and deeming him a liar seems grossly unfair. Expecting him to give recommendations that are perfect from day one and are never modified due to new information is both unfair and irrational.
Sure he is in a political position. Sure it goes with the game. But that does not mean that unfair criticism is okay. And what really blows my mind here Drakk is that the criticism of Fauci is typically from Rs and conservatives who are (or were) supporting Trump. How can one deem Fauci a liar and a boob while heaping sycophantic praise on Trump?
(sigh)
Emphatically.
Did you really ask that? Nine months ago we were under the control (thanks to Trump enablers) of Donald J. Trump, President of the United States. And we and the whole world suffered heavily for it. Dr. Fauci tried to tell that foolish leader the best of what he had to offer professionally, but Donald "the Know-it-All (Not!)" wouldn't shut up and receive it. And, finally, the whole routine of sharing with the ill and dying ceased coming, when Donald offers words that made him a laughing stock: to which he reacted by shutting down the sessions from the White House.
Drakkonis, this is enough of the diminishing slights at Dr. Fauci. Please come up for 'air' and receive something better from diverse news feeds.
Dr. Fauci is different mere days later not because he is politically out to out-shine Donald in his recent absence, he is different in his presentations because he does not have the countervailing voices using the bully pulpit of federal health to incessantly beat down the truth he comes to enlighten us (and the world) with. That is, the professional "riff-raff" has been moved off the "dais" of state and now proper speaking and advice can be rendered liberally.
This is weird. I watched an interview with Fauci yesterday. He was asked about this and didn't seem to make this recommendation at all.
I first read Nerm's editorial and then read the article.
I have no idea how that editorial emerged based on what this article describes. The topic is the same, but that is where the similarity ends. It is almost as if the seeder wants to proclaim that nobody knows what they are talking about when it comes to masks yet does so with an article that is indeed common sense.
If someone is trying to better protect themselves and they are in areas where they are likely to be infected, wearing a multi-layered protection obviously will trap more particles. This is simply an added precaution; it clearly does not make one immune from infection.
Medical professionals have been double-masking the entire time.
The best precaution (outside of vaccination ... and with a new strand, vaccination is now less effective) remains to be social distancing. Wherever possible try to maintain a safe distance from others in public. If that cannot be done, a quality mask is a sensible additional precaution. The lower the quality the mask (e.g. single, porous fabric) the less protection it will provide. So, common sense, wear a quality mask.
Unfortunately, the past year has clearly demonstrated that many people lack common sense. Or rationality too.
Biden ran and won the Presidency based on "having a plan to fight Covid",
juxtaposed with this when he was elected:
"there's nothing that can change the trajectory of Covid over the next few months."
Too funny. I'd assume all the people who blame Trump for every covid death were shocked to learn a President can't wave a magic wand and stop an epidemic, but I don't think they were stupid enough to believe what they were saying about Trump in the first place.
And Trump won based on building a wall Mexico would pay for. Your point?
Where's the wall?
And Trump did nothing about Covid when it started and 400,000 people in this country died in less than a year.
President Trump Discusses Coronavirus In New Audio Recordings
"Dangerous, airborne, and highly contagious. Three facts President Trump knew about the Coronavirus before the first confirmed U.S. death."
We weren't told that masks were intended to protect us. The advice, that Dr. Fauci touted, was that masks controlled spread of the virus. That's what the outcries over pool parties at the Lake of the Ozarks and the Sturgis motorcycle rally was about.
People who do not wear a mask don't care about others. They spread the virus because they aren't wearing a mask. Remember?
The fluid dynamics of exhaled droplets and aerosols is not affected by the virus. It doesn't matter if its influenza virus or coronavirus, the amount of spread by exhaled droplets and aerosols remain the same. It doesn't matter if the strain of coronavirus is more infectious, the mode of transmission has not changed.
Dr. Fauci is using science to blow smoke and obfuscate another fiasco led by experts. Look at the rabbit pulled out of Fauci's backside.
Unteachable.
So Nerm, since I did not get much from. . . that. . . do you wear a mask at all? And if so, which type? Also, to do allow people to breath on you or speak around you for long periods of time maskless?
Give me a sense of your mask / -less world, why don't you?
I wear two 3 ply surgical masks with enhanced paper 'wraps' inside even them these days. Still have paks of the highly preferrable and expensive (as "H") Pure-Msk for medical office visits (double it with a surgical mask too), and getting ready to upgrade to 5-ply mask in a matter of days. Used to wear N-95 until they got too hard to get. K-N95 getting back into those tomorrow on my supply run. But, that's just me.
Need picture evidence of my mask 'holdings,' just ask!
And delusional.
Yes, I wear a mask when I am out.
I live in a world of fucking assholes that won't keep their distance. I am learning to be extraordinarily rude. I have encountered very, very few people not wearing a mask. And those that are seem to think a magic mask will protect them.
Yes people are generally ill-informed ... largely because they do not pay attention and also because there are people feeding misinformation. Masks are just one precaution and primarily they exist to protect others, not the wearer. But there is some protection to the wearer (and that is a function of mask quality). So when dealing with a bunch of "fucking assholes" it would be advisable to wear a high quality mask. If one is being logical, that is.
Does your mask (without any magic) 'protect' you? If not, why do you wear it? Whom are you humoring by wearing a mask?
I would look at the health professionals as they transit 'out and about.' Their mask wearing inside and outside of professional hours is a sign to those who want to be ahead of the situation we're locked in.
People are generally ill-informed because experts like Fauci confuse the public.
If double masking provides the wearer protection then why does it matter if anyone else on the planet wears a mask? It's your responsibility to protect yourself. What others do is their business, you're protected.
Why weren't we double masking earlier? As Dr. Fauci states, that's common sense and no science is required. Wouldn't that have avoided the need to close schools, close sports events, and work from home? Wouldn't better protection provided by double masks have dramatically shortened the list of non-essential activities?
Anthony Fauci is blowing smoke and not educating the public. Fauci has been whining about being stifled by the past administration. Doesn't this bit of common sense (and not science) opinionating provide an explanation why? Fauci is a loose cannon serving himself and not serving the public.
People are ill informed (or confused) because people are generally idiots and scientifically illiterate.
Masks protect others from the wearer. Not so much from others.
Masks were in short supply early in the pandemic. Plus the quality of a mask matters too. Besides, look at how some people were complaining about wearing one mask. They might have flipped out if they were told to wear two.
One can only speculate.
Or maybe the public refuses to be educated.
With good reason too.
Utter nonsense!
Fauci justified the advice for double masks with common sense, not with science. Fauci didn't point to data, evidence, or facts that demonstrate double masks provide superior protection. Fauci claims that it's common sense that adding layers increases protection. Yes, that's common sense but where has that common sense been for the past year?
That's the guidelines in place over the past year. Those guidelines were the justification for mandates and restrictions. We have been advised to wear masks to reduce spread of the virus and not to protect ourselves from the virus.
If more layers better achieves the objectives of the guidelines then why are we only hearing this expert advice now? Wouldn't have added layers on masks avoided the spread of the virus and shortened the list of restricted activities? Would more layers on masks have avoided shutting down schools?
If a mask with more layers better protects the wearer then why should the wearer be concerned whether or not anyone else on the planet is wearing a mask? The wearer is protected. The wearer is responsible for protecting themselves and what others do is not the wearer's business.
Then explain that to the public. Don't send out mixed messages about the need to wear a mask. Don't try to manipulate the public to achieve some other agenda.
Fauci complains that people are not wearing masks. But there hasn't been any data, evidence, or facts presented to support that claim. Fauci has relied upon anecdotal evidence to manipulate the public. And it remains uncertain if that manipulation was intended to achieve some other agenda.
Mask production has been ramped up sufficiently that medical grade masks are now available to the public in limited quantities. What agenda is Fauci attempting to achieve? Is Fauci just trying to sell more masks?
And that's the point. With the quality of expert advice that's been provided, the public is still required to speculate.
Does it ever occur to you that officials seek to make practical suggestions? Even if Fauci had known that the common sense logic of wearing double-mask was indeed effective and safe (because in science one tests hypotheses before acting) it would be irresponsible for him to encourage this until appropriate masks were available in quantities sufficient to act on the suggestion. Indeed, your logic suggests that Fauci should be recommending a full head covering because 'if more is better why impose any limits'.
Not sure what triggered your attitude against Fauci but your arguments read emotional rather than objective.
So, Fauci utilized scientific expertise to manipulate public policy and public opinion in a political manner. Which has been the complaint all along.
Scientific recommendations don't depend upon practicality, availability, or public opinion. Scientific recommendations are not constrained by what the public will accept or what the marketplace can accommodate.
And a strawman exaggeration of my logic misses the point and only serves as a distraction.
The word practical means the same as political to you?
Fauci is operating in an advisory capacity for the public. Practicality is a key consideration. How can you not know this?
Don't use the term until you understand what it means. You argued that if double masking, per common sense, is better then it should just be used. I explained that it is not that simple and that double-masking needs to be tested to ensure it is effective and safe. Your simplistic view of simply adding more layers without factoring in effectiveness and safety logically leads to an absurdity. That is not a strawman argument, it is pointing out how your logic sucks.
My summary conclusion: your 'argument' is irrational.
Is Fauci a science advisor or a political advisor?
Both. He is an expert scientific advisor who communicates the application of scientific findings (by others in the scientific community) to deal with infectious diseases at a societal level. He advises politicians (who act) and the public. He thus deals with the intersection of science and the application of same at a societal level while practically dealing with the conditions of reality at the time.
How do we know when Fauci is acting as science advisor and when Fauci is acting as political advisor? What part is science and which part is politics?
The science hasn't changed. Fluid dynamics works the same way. Filtration materials work the same way. The masks have not changed and still function in the same manner. The virus has mutated but that hasn't affected how the virus spreads. Nothing relating to the spread of the virus has changed.
The only thing that has changed has been Fauci's advice. Since the science hasn't changed then doesn't that suggest that Fauci's shifting recommendations are politically motivated?
You do not comprehend the union of those two roles? Also, he is not a political advisor in the sense that he advises politicians on how to deal with politics. He advises politicians on the science and the societal effects of infectious diseases. He advises within his realm of expertise.
The conditions have been changing since the inception. Further, the availability and construction of masks has absolutely been changing. If you focus on one dimension of reality to the exclusion of all others you will likely arrive at irrational conclusions ... and that is what seems to be happening here.
(see above)
Fauci isn't advising politicians when he speaks to the public.
But the mode of virus spread and means of controlling spread have not changed. The virus is spreading today just as it did over a year ago in Wuhan when it first emerged. The virus has not mutated to spread by its own means; the virus has not grown wings or legs.
Do you do this on purpose Nerm? It seems like no matter what I write you find a way to ignore part of it (as if it was never written) and ask what are then stupid questions.
Of course Fauci is not advising politicians while he is in the process of speaking to the public. He also likely does not eat lunch while working out either, but I suspect he does both. If I were to state that you read and seed articles on NT would you come back and challenge that by stating that you do not read articles while you are busy seeding one??
Why do you engage in this nonsense?
My editorial preface to the seeded article explains my position. Am I supporting that editorial position? Why, yes, indeed I am.
You stated that Fauci's role as political advisor is to inform politicians on how do deal with politics. I understand that statement to mean (perhaps an assumption on my part) advising politicians how to utilize science correctly in the political arena.
I am pointing out that Fauci has been addressing the public in an advisory capacity. And the public has been confused by Fauci's shifting and sometimes contradictory advice. Has Fauci been a science advisor or political advisor when addressing the public?
I am rebutting your statements and supporting my editorial position. Ain't that how it's supposed work?
And when I use a weakness in your arguments to support my own position its not nonsense. Don't make weak arguments and then I can't engage in the nonsense of pointing out the weaknesses.
The seeded article points out that Fauci supports moving the goalposts again. The guidelines Fauci participated in establishing haven't been about using masks to protect wearers. The purpose of masks according to the guidelines is to control spread. And nothing about the mode of spread and means to control spread have changed. There isn't any new science to suggest the guidelines are inadequate. Fauci has once again introduced a confusing bit of advice that doesn't have anything to do with following the guidelines and controlling spread of the virus.
Fauci has pulled another rabbit out of his backside and diverted attention away from the importance of following the guidelines. Fauci has completely changed the purpose for wearing a mask with this latest advice. Do governors and mayors now begin mandating double masks? And if the purpose of future mandates becomes to protect the wearer then why wasn't this advice provided sooner?
No. Egad, what is the point of writing if you read the exact opposite of what I write?:
Read what I write. If you were to do that and accurately reflect my position and then engage in debate on my actual position I would continue. This circular nonsense and invented 'rebuttals' by you now comes to an end (for me).
As always I will say that maybe someone else with a fresh set of patience might step in.
It is common sense. If one mask offers protection, then 2 masks offers more protection. And science has already demonstrated that 1 mask offers protection.
I already said people are generally idiots. That includes a lack of common sense. During a pandemic, people seemed to listen more to politicians than scientists. There was no common sense to be found.
Then why ask the question " why does it matter if anyone else on the planet wears a mask?" You already seem to know the answer.
So no one can connect the dots on their own that 2 masks might be better than 1 for protection? Jeez, people are idiots, as I said! It's like they can't think or problem solve for themselves. However, there is a supply and practicality factor to consider too.
Possible. But otherwise speculation.
You already asked why and I answered, to which you seemed to acknowledge and agree. Why are you asking the same question again, albeit in a somewhat different way? Are you just playing dumb at this point?
It was. Refer to my previous assessment of the general public.
What mixed messages and agenda?
A valid complaint.
Really? You haven't seen any news or other media showing people refusing to wear masks or becoming irate at the idea of wearing masks? There are certain members here on NT who have openly expressed they are not wearing masks under certain conditions when they are out.
Now you're diving head first into conspiracy theory level nonsense, and looking foolish in the process.
You tell me! You're the one who seems to think there's some kind of agenda or ulterior motive.
The expert advice that's been offered has been to wear masks, social distance, practice good hygiene, ect.. That's good advice. But a would've, could've, should've style scenario is not advice.
Actually, practicality and availability are factors.
No! At this point and the level of explanation already provided to you, it seems you are arguing simply to argue! Not the first time too.
You are attributing the combativeness and ineptitude of Donald Trump, 2020 president onto a subordinate. Frankly, I find the absence of mention of the former president deliberate and. . . disgusting. Thus, this position you present is invalid for cause.
What triggered this combative posturing? Donald Trump and the fact that these folks have been on the wrong side of the discussion all along. Moreover, though they see the culture around them is changing as more and more people are conceding to wearing masks to blunt, render null, and end the general threat - they persist in delusional tactics.
Yes, I made an error. And my rephrasing of your comment should have highlighted that I had omitted the word 'not' in error.
Bottom line: The issue at hand is not Anthony Fauci's scientific expertise. The issue at hand is Fauci's competence as an advisor in any capacity.
On more than one occasion Fauci has admitted deliberately misleading the public and Fauci's justifications for doing so have been entirely political. Fauci on several occasions has strayed from policy onto ancillary issues that have confused the public about policy. The issue highlighted in the seeded article is only one example.
Fauci's performance as an advisor suggests that Fauci should not be allowed to serve as spokesperson for policy. Fauci has been using science to serve political agendas and Fauci has not been transparent about the political nature of the advice he provides the public.
Fauci may well be a foremost scientific expert on infectious disease. But Fauci doesn't possess the skills or competence necessary to serve as an advisor. Fauci is a loose cannon.
First, people who are confronted with the virus daily wear masks to scale and are convinced that arguments against wearing masks to scale are invalid.
Second, Dr. Fauci strikes as a professional who is beyond the years in his career where he wants to be challenged by combative politicians who have nothing substantive to share on the important issues of medicine and science.
Third, it is noted that while you take the scientific and medical, embodied in Dr. Fauci to diminishing and distortion, you fail to address the real politicians and their ineptitude throughout 2020. To appearances, you need Dr. Fauci to be your 'monster.' That makes your argument dubious.
Finally, you have expressed that your own mask wearing is poor. Thus, it is plain that you are not clear that a cloth mask is no longer strong or proper protection for a repeat mutating coronavirus now - or in the future.
Your arguments are invalid.
Who has advised those politicians? Fauci's advice changes with the expedient political need of the moment.
The issue is not Fauci's scientific expertise. The issue is Fauci's competence as an advisor. Fauci may know the science but that doesn't mean Fauci has the competence to provide advice.
Those claims are bogus. The facts are President Trump and Vice-President Biden and the other uninformed white house officials not trained in the scientific method or modern medical sciences of pandemics should never overruled the Coronavirus Task Force when facts and figures were crucial to control of the outbreak.
That you argue for bending this into a crusade to assassinate one man as opposed to letting the facts fall where they may and dealing with that, makes your arguments dubious and invalid.
Good question. I find it to be irrational to attack Fauci like this. And incessantly with the same tired old bullshit and the presumption that every decision he makes is wrong and is intended to benefit his 'agenda'. It is biased, irrational, emotional and essentially conspiratorial nonsense.
My message all along has been to follow the guidelines. Wearing a mask is only one requirement to follow the guidelines.
The virus is spreading the same way now as it did when it first emerged in Wuhan. And nothing has been presented to suggest the guidelines are inadequate for controlling spread of the virus.
Are you attempting to suggest the guidelines are not scientifically valid any longer? Are you attempting to suggest that something has changed in the way the virus spreads? Do you have any evidence that demonstrates social distancing is no longer effective at controlling spread of the virus? Do you have any evidence that demonstrates wearing a more protective mask eliminates the need to social distance?
What does double masks have to do with government policy, mandates, and requirements to follow the guidelines?
It is a well-established fact that Donald Trump keeps his own 'counsel' and bends others to it. Dr. Fauci wasn't advising President Trump anymore than it suited Trump's narrative (or those participants in the Administration Spin Room or Damage Control divisions). After all, we now know that before Donald ever took action with the public on this virus, he was intellectually aware of three things:
And to this day, the then and now former president still misrepresent the response to the virus to the public. Take a look at a recent photo:
Maskless. Within inches of each other.
These are the actions of combative people. These are not the correct actions of well-informed people modeling respiratory disease avoidance for an onlooking nation.
Anthony Fauci's advice on double masks is irrelevant for controlling spread of the virus. Double, triple, or quadruple masks won't improve control over spread of the virus.
More masks doesn't do away with the need to social distance which is the most effective means of protection according to the science.
Fauci is a politician who happens to know some aspects of science. Expertise doesn't provide immunity from political accountability.
Anthony Fauci was Trump's expert. Trump didn't fire Fauci. And your questions about Fauci's advice are valid. Was Fauci playing politics to keep his job?
Nerm, do you have any statement where Dr. Fauci literally states double-masking as medical fact, NIH policy, or public policy. I'd like to look at it-if you can produce it for us.
The mutating coronavirus is driving discussions around the subject of "enhanced" mask wearing. Not Dr. Fauci. For the record, I was double-masking long before Dr. Fauci was asked about it! I did so, because it made good 'mother sense' and because wearing a mask or two does'nt medically bother me. Moreover, when it was explained that the UK virus was 50 to 70 percents more infectious than the regular version of Coronavirus, and that our 'tools' and methods for dealing with it were to be the same as before well, doubly-up was commonsense.
In that it makes good sense to increase the barrier between one's respiratory system and the virus being transmitted.
I have no reason to agree with that one. Can you check Doctor Fauci's bio on that one and get back to us with an update?
Why not? Please explain this assertion you're making. Oh and you can stop at double-masking, because of logistics and practicality with your answer.
You are charging Dr. Fauci for duties not related to his position as scientific and medical advisor. I encourage you to direct your energies and a proper spotlight on the former president who was responsible and accountable for protecting our citizenry and the nation's properties in 2020 - for the politics of that era.
And to be plain as I can be. I am going to ask that Trump supporters cease and desist this gaslighting of Doctor Fauci. I suggest they leave the throngs at Fox News and those other questionable sites that thunder and echo ridiculousness for bearers of "itching hears" and come back to the center of reality where the world resides! And they can think clearly.
Okay. . . when did the topic shift to social distancing. . . I want you to point to that comment. . .please.
As for the guidelines, you can wear one mask only if you wish, but that is not your argument against Dr. Fauci - is it?
Do you understand that vaccines are generally ineffective against different virus strains? Vaccines stimulate the immune system to attack a specific viral protein strains. But if a virus is a different strain, the immune system will not recognize it and must generate an immune response from scratch. That's why someone who gets a flu vaccine can still fall ill with the flu. It's a different strain of flu infecting the body. Covid is no different in that regard.
Yeah it is easy to find. A simple Google search offers several easy to read options. Pick one that you like.
The scary problem here is that the virus continues to mutate. As if the original was not hard enough to deal with. The two most common strains are still within the efficacy of the vaccines but the efficacy varies per vaccine. There was a recent study, for example, showing that the Moderna vaccine is effective on the two most common strains. It is, however, less effective on the newer B.1.351 strain. Obviously continued mutations pose a challenge. New strains necessarily reduce the overall efficacy of vaccinations. All it takes is a strain that is predominantly unaffected by the vaccines and there goes herd immunity.
Hopefully we will not wind up in this nightmare situation. But the reality is that the virus has and is mutating.
I have asked this before to no fanfare or commentary. But is it true that viruses are never gone for good? For example: The "common" cold virus?
The problem is, viruses can have many strains, which makes eliminating them outright challenging. But there are some viruses that have been eradicated, such as Smallpox.
Yep, which is why we have the annual flu shots. As this is a novel virus it's not yet known if we will need annual vaccine shots for this or not.
I think we're going to end up needing annual Covid shots. Especially if there are different strains.
We have effectively seen viruses to extinction. But to literally have no samples of any virus on the planet ... I am afraid that is not likely. It can be dormant in other species and we keep samples in labs. Further, there are all sorts of strains that evolve and cause no harm but could turn around and evolve into harmful strains.
Very good (all)! Thank you. I will add that Smallpox does exist (in labs). Gordy, remember President George W. Bush was inoculated with smallpox vaccine during his term in office. (I forget the rationale for it, nevertheless.)
Gordy, remember President George W. Bush was inoculated with smallpox vaccine during his term in office. (I forget the rationale for it, nevertheless.)
The fear that Saddam had it in the lab as was willing to use it.
That or Anthrax. Or other WMDs.
God! If you don't want to wear a mask; just don't! But do stay away from me and the rest of us who do!
No, wear a mask! People should be smart about this and show consideration for others.
No! Let them go. And if need be perish and make a 'hole' for the rest of us reasonable people to fill. I want you to know that I have an old Vietnam friend (he is 80 years old) and since the start of this pandemic last March 2020 thereabouts, this man has never worn a face covering - and I saw him just the other day. Still okay. But, now I have no longer 'indulge" him and more or less shorten my time or simply shy away all together. I'm tired of taking a risk over him. Frankly, I'm tired of him because of Covid-19.
So I think about him when these conversations arise on new shows and now here. Such people are willful, selfish, and always wanting the attention of being in my, your 'space.'
(I got your point, nevertheless.)
Evening. Each to their own I guess. Here they did not recommend double masking especially people with respiratory problems. But if people feel more secure and comfortable, so be it.
We are now down to just wearing masks in supermarkets and public transport. There is no community transmission at all in the whole of Australia at the moment, other than cases in quarantine.
This can change at the drop of a hat, but steady as she goes for us at the moment.
Australia was smart. They took the pandemic seriously and brought it relatively under control, unlike in the US. Australia probably had some leadership in dealing with it too, also unlike the US.
Oh we had our stuff ups...Dumbo Dan the Victorian premier and his Ministers cost the lives of 800 people..all because he did not want to use the Army to secure those in Quarantine..
People got out and spread the virus, they installed security guards who could not speak English and advertised positions for guards on gumtree (like eBay).
Then it got into the elderly care homes. Hundreds were lost.
Far as I know the death toll for the whole of Australia sits at 909. I think NZ it is 26. NZ is abit up and down at the moment with infections. It has got into the community again 3 are infected and they are now in mandatory quarantine. But they look like they have squashed it.
When we saw the mess in Europe when it started, how could we not take it seriously?
Those that didn't are paying for it now sadly. Like the Indonesian president told his people to prey it away and that would save them. Really good advice that was..🙄🙄
Stay safe, wear a mask and take care.
909 is a drop in the bucket compared to the 400,000 dead in the US. And yes, prayer does absolutely nothing. But ive been saying that for quite sometime now.
Thank you! Enjoying your thread with Gordy! (Smile.) Sincerer words could not be spoken by the two of you!
Morning CB..I call it as I see it. I am not prone to panic or run around like a headless chook. It does nothing and solves nothing. Not even when I was told I had cancer, the practical side kicked in..ok can't change it as much as you wish you can, so just get on with it.
It is the same with most things in life and if you think for yourself and sieve out the crap from the facts, you can't go to far wrong.
Yes we are fortunate here, for once the tyranny of distance is on our side. So we had sometime up our sleeve.
But we know this can change at any moment as this virus has no intentions of disappearing anytime soon.
We have not started the vaccine roll out here yet. We are in no hurry and we watch with great interest and caution what is happening overseas.
909 lost souls to us is 909 to many. They are mum's and dad's, brothers and sisters, not mere numbers and those families are changed forever.
Stay safe where ever you are, wear a mask and take care.
Thank you for such words. Indeed, thank you. We, this nation, is swimming in death right now. And it's. . . really hard to wonder what we will become after this. So much has been taken away. Whole ways of life-altered by one single germ that proves the point: If you can not breathe on your own; the world is not yours anymore.
Out today, I drove by one of our most clean and sparkling elementary schools today. It was closed for the duration. Silent. Clean. Beautiful. But no life -no spirit- attended it. Shona1, this virus hits us right where we live. . .life is to breath!
Best to you and yours in all that you experience.
Life will return to the schools as they were closed here for most of last year. The new school term started y'day...so in time life will return to yours as well.
Yes things will be different and like all things nothing stays the same forever. No matter what it is.
What the answer is in the US not sure if there is one. It is like starting behind the 8 ball.
At the end of day all you can do is look after yourself and family, do the basics and avoid people as much as possible.
Stay well and stay safe..😷
That's that change I speak of; many young lovers and young adults even (tee-hee) are missing out on their formative "lovin" phase. How can they every make up the time? It will leave a stamp on history! If this keeps up for much longer color the next gen: Not properly socialized!
There is a big difference when a society takes the warnings seriously, its people more concerned with the health, life and welfare of others and comply voluntarily with methods perhaps considered draconian by "Freedom Warriors".
Personally, I wouldn't step ONE FOOT into the USA these days unless I was wearing a deep diver suit or what Neil Armstrong wore on the moon, let alone double masking.