Just a discussion

Keep the discussion to demons, hauntings and other spiritual stuff.    

Were any of this to be true (I'm a skeptic) who would even know what type of spirit were haunting them, be it ghost or demon? Are there rules? Aren't "thresholds" supposed to keep entities out? Couldn't one put salt on window ledges and door openings? Burn some sage? Wear a religious symbol? I don't know there are so many different legends and folk tales.

For the most part in these shows the paranormal groups that go in to do the investigation & cleanse are the ones that tell them it is demons.  

I am a believer in the "supernatural" and magick in all things.  I sage my house at least once a year on Ostara (spring cleaning) and more if I felt someone brought in some negative energy.   try to keep my life and that of my family in a positive energy setting.  Sometimes it works, sometimes not.  I also salted the boundaries of our property when we moved in.  

Most cultures have their "demons".  If I hear about something I don't know I do research...it is who I am.  I love to read about the lore of other cultures - it fascinates me.  I just wish there had more handed down in my family (we descend from the Celts in Ireland and Scotland).  Most of their lore was wiped out by conquering nations.

For the most part in these shows the paranormal groups that go in to do the investigation & cleanse are the ones that tell them it is demons.  

Yeah.... part of the reason I'm skeptical. 

I love to read about the lore of other cultures - it fascinates me.

Me too.

Lately I have been on an Irish lore kick.  Stories of the Fae and wee folk.  I just love it.  

I am tentatively scheduled for a trip over to Ireland and Scotland next year. Waiting on my passport application.

Stories of the Fae and wee folk.  I just love it. 

Check out the Welsh Tylwyth Teg - fairy folk responsible for the "changeling" myths as they would kidnap golden haired children and replace them. There are other myths applied to this group like luring unsuspecting fools into the fog to get lost and rewarding or cursing people depending... Those types of stories are in many  cultures.

trip over to Ireland and Scotland

My sister & I want to go so bad, but at this time it's not looking good.  I keep saving though.  

Check out the Welsh Tylwyth Teg

OOOO, thanks I will.  Love stories about changelings.

For the most part in these shows the paranormal groups that go in to do the investigation & cleanse are the ones that tell them it is demons.  

And the ones that claim they are demons, generally have a financial or personal stake in finding these demons/ghosts/etc..

My heritage is Welsh and would love to learn the language. Maybe someday I will go to the school in Wales that teaches people the language.

I love it when they bring a "man of the cloth" although they never say what sect he belongs to & we all know the Catholic church has large hoops to jump through to get an exorcism.

Everyone should know that to perform a real exorcism, one must have an ordained Roman Catholic priest. The Church will grant exorcisms but they have to have enough evidence of a true possession before they bless it

Yep - but in all these shows some guy with a white collar comes in - throws water around the house says some prayers while waving a cross over people & BANG exorcism performed.

I don't think that's how it works. Even the movie got some of it right

Yea, I know.  But that is what they want you to think on these shows.  

For the most part in these shows the paranormal groups that go in to do the investigation & cleanse are the ones that tell them it is demons. 

IIRC, most of these shows seem to "accentuate the negative". IMO they often seem obsessed with "the Dark Side". And often their information seems to be based on sensationalism.

I am not a big fan of conventional religion...but I have found that there is much to many spiritual alternative approaches that is "of the light".

Most of the TV shows (and for that matter much of what's on the Internet) is often IMO focused on dark energies (whether real or imagined), Over the years I have met many who are focused on bringing light into the world (In some cases they feel it is their life purpose)

Yep - but in all these shows some guy with a white collar comes in - throws water around the house says some prayers while waving a cross over people & BANG exorcism performed.

There are approaches one can learn whereby you can learn ways of banishing negative energies.

Many organized schools of healing, many different approaches.

Of course there is a lot of opposition to this from many groups that have a vested interest in being the only ones recognized, so they often put a lot of effort in trying to convince people they are the only ones with legit healing powers. (I'm thinking of groups as diverse as The Catholic Church to the AMA!

One interesting approach that is fairly widely known in some circles if the work of Barbara Brennen (This is a simplified explation of the techniques she teaches: She reads peoples' Auras and then works with that to pull out negative energies). Its extremely powerful... and from what I know of it it goes well beyond merely exorcising negative energy....

Here's her first book which I read decades ago-- she also has more recent ones: Hands of Light . (Gives a good idea of her approach and provides some interesting information-- unfortinately you can't learn it just by reading her books).

One of the quickest to learn is Reiki. Its energy chaneling from a higher source through your body-- from the Crown Chakra doen and out through your hands. You can do it on yourself ..and/or do healings on others. 

There are several levels-- each is exponentially more powerful. In order to do it professionally you should at least be a Level Three (also called a "ReikiMaster").

One of the reasons I stopped watching the ghost hunter/demon hunters shows is because I believe they are all scripted or there's a story they're not telling.

Is it possible her children are being molested by her and so she's going to tell the public that they are stalked by demons?

I don't believe in demon possession (The Exorcist). But I do believe that there are unexplainable things in our universe. But unexplained because we haven't figured out the science yet

I watch mainly because sometimes they have jump scares & I love those.  I rarely believe any of them to be true as told.  

Is it possible her children are being molested by her

That is something I never even thought of.  Now I have to wonder.  

I do not believe in demon possession either.  I believe there are evil people out there.  I also believe in different realms (universes) that go along side by side & sometimes there is a tear in the veil that separates the different realms & that is when we see UFOs, unknown animals, spirits... etc. 

I know I am weird.

You are not weird. I believe in different dimensions, possibly parallel worlds where things will collide or cross over.

I have seen strange things that I can't explain

I have seen strange things that I can't explain

Those things make living exciting to me.  I just love a good ghost story, cryptid sighting...

I really liked TAPS, one of the first ghost hunter shows. It seemed legit.

I liked it until the real skeptic left. Then it got where they were legitimizing every haunted house. I think his name was Jason? or Garrett? Anyway he was always finding ways to debunk hauntings

I think Jason was the leader. He couldn't debunk everything and the show seemed real.

It did the first few seasons

Grant was the skeptic.  I think that is why he left.  He didn't like the whole every place is haunted shit.  However Jason, Steve & Dave's new show Ghost Nation has gone back to basics - they do research on the properties & also debunk a lot of the stuff.  I loved when TAPS had the one woman that was the researcher.  She stayed in the office & they went out to the place & she would do all the back story & give it to them.  

Jason & Grant were both skeptics in the beginning, but Jason slid down the ghost everywhere hole & Grant couldn't take it anymore - their partnership suffered as did their friendship.

Grant! That was his name! That's when I liked the show. He was my favorite

I liked Jason at the beginning, but then he got carried away down the ghost hole.  I do like him on th enew series because he doesn't talk ghosts all the time - he gets more into debunking again and research.

It was amazing! He attracted the spirit of a deceased Aunt and the communication was hard to believe

Then it was my turn-- I didn't think I could do it. But I had an incredible  experience of attracting the deceased Mother of my partner-- and she said the communications were accurate-- it was definitely her!

The reason I mention this is not to prosylytize any of this but rather because IMO its seems germane to this discussion. I am "Just Discussing" this-- I have zero attachment as to whether anyone here believes in this or not. 

And actually Mediumship (and the "Spirit World") is not a major focus of mine.  And while I also have become a fairly decent Tarot reader, my main passion is Astrology.

(Of these "Arcane Sciences" the one I've never mastered is telekinesis--- although its not a major interest so I only practiced it a little). I have witnessed someamazing demonstrations of this though....

Telekinesis is something I would like to have. Then I wouldn't really have to lift a finger so to speak

I am what is called an Empath.  I zone in on the feelings of others big time.  Not just people, but animals as well.  Sometimes it is overwhelming and I was told to learn how to harness it so I can shut down when necessary - here I am still wide open feeling what others are feeling.  

Recently I connected  to my mother (we are slightly estranged). I felt her pain through the miles and just cried.  I called my sister and asked if something was up with our mom & she then told me about mother having to put down her cat.  I could feel her crying and feeling so alone.  I ached for her.  I actually called and we talked about a lot of things.  

Just discussing...

I am what is called an Empath. 

I have known a few true Empaths over the years. IIRC most of them had periods early in life were at times it frightened them-- but over time learned how to shut it off when necessary! (I imagine in many cases it was made even more unsettling as these kids were probably raised in a family of Muggles who didn't believe in it?)

Some make a profession of using their unique gifts to help people ("Medical Intuitives"-- some working with regularmedical doctors...some working on their own).

I have worked on developping my Psychic abilities, but am not one of those rare individuals with that gift (Empathic)-- my natural tendency is to be a "regular" psychic, mostly "claircognizant" (Just somehow knowing stuff without knowing how I know it-- but occasionaly quite clairvoyent (Knowing by seeing images and symbols).

Of course while its a lot of fun, I do not actually take it too seriously-- just for amusement only! (I did have a friend who came to a party and read Tarot-- but reminded people that it was just for fun-- no guarantee of accuracy, it was just for a fun game.

Probably true Telekinesis takes the longest (and the most practice) to develop. I practiced trying to develop that ability for about a week or a weekand a half but eventually stopped as I had other priorities. (My teacher said she can bend a stell rod-- but its still difficult and takes a while). 

(My teacher said she can bend a stell rod-- but its still difficult and takes a while). 

She has created courses in Psychic development.

Professionally she is a Forensic Psychic (works with Police Depts to help solve unsolved cases)

I am what is called an Empath.  I zone in on the feelings of others big time.  Not just people, but animals as well.  Sometimes it is overwhelming

My wife is somewhat the same way.  She senses some things that happen with her family just before they really happen.  Much along the lines of your story with you and your Mom, my wife has many such stories regarding her Mom and sisters. 

It isn't so far-fetched to imagine that we all have some kind of "empathetic telepathy" or connection with other people especially those closest to us (even though they might live far away).   Kinda like The Force in Star Wars except that few can throw objects at each other just by concentrating and gesturing with our arms.  (-:   Some sense it more than others, some not at all.  But some of my wife's stories make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Telekinesis is something I would like to have. Then I wouldn't really have to lift a finger so to speak

From talking to people who claim to know about these things, of all the psychic-related skills it is the most challenging to learn and takes a very long time to get good at.

And even then you might not develop the skill to the point where there's much practical use for it.

(I did watch a master doing two demos-- in one he actually "disappeared" for a minute or so  then re-appeared-- it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen!)

I do believe that there are unexplainable things in our universe. But unexplained because we haven't figured out the science yet

That is true...in many cases.

But over the years I've learned that they're unexplained when you only get information from TV shows, movies, and Internet boards.

There are very evolved healers, (and readers such as good Tarot, Psychics, or Astrologers) who know many of those answers...

There is an olde metaphysical saying;

When the student is ready, the teacher appears....

But over the years I've learned that they're unexplained when you only get information from TV shows, movies, and Internet boards. There are very evolved healers, (and readers such as good Tarot, Psychics, or Astrologers) who know many of those answers...

Unfortunately there are also many charlatans-- especially, it seems, with many Psychics. (Probably the area with the most con artists and scammers are the "Gypsy" psychics in stiore )front windows-- probably 90% of them are grifters. 

I understand you don't believe in demons (I happen to agree on that. None exist outside of ones of our own making.); but could another definition of demon be poltergeist? 

Violent, disturbed, or tormented souls may have a stronger tie to this world; and could linger. They might originally be tied to places and objects; but when a highly susceptible person comes along the poltergeist attaches itself to them.

I don't pretend to be an expert by means; just what I have heard on Ghost Hunters and other paranormal shows I used to watch.

Wondering on what your thoughts were; I guess if it is possible?

poltergeist

I have never encountered one (thank the goddess), but I believe things like that exist.  Like I said in another comment I believe they come through tears in the veil between the separate realms that make up the universe.  I know there are things that I cannot explain.  I heard them in my mother-in-law's (RIP) house when I was caring for her.  They scared the crap out of me. I just do not know what they are.

I am also not an expert, but I tend to believe in things unseen.  Could be because I am a follower of Nature & there are so many things out there that we cannot comprehend.

I have never encountered one (thank the goddess), but I believe things like that exist.

I'm curious.  Why do you believe they exist? 

Often people believe in supernatural things, because they WANT them to exist, not necessarily because they have any evidence of their existence.

Like I said in another comment I believe they come through tears in the veil between the separate realms that make up the universe.

Again, what makes you believe in other realms?

I am also not an expert, but I tend to believe in things unseen.

Which again brings up the question of, why you believe in something you have never seen.

Don't misunderstand, this is not the kind of thread where I am going to challenge your beliefs or anything.  I will take what you say at face value because they are YOUR OWN personal beliefs.  I am just curious as to what circumstances lead you to gain those beliefs.

I tend to be skeptic and don't subscribe to believing anything that either I haven't experienced for myself, or that I cannot research and find scientific evidence that it was truly experienced elsewhere.  My wife believes in ghosts, but only because she got spooked by something when she was young and a "ghost" was the only thing she could think of for that experience, at that age.

Why do you believe they exist? 

I have friends that have suffered through things that are not explainable.  

what makes you believe in other realms?

Because I am not arrogant enough to think we are the only beings or realm that exists.

you believe in something you have never seen.

I have heard things that cannot be explained.  I believe in what I have been told by people I trust.  For example:  my sister told me she saw my father at the end of her bed one morning at 4 AM.  Later that day we got the call that he passed at 3:45 AM.  She told me about her "dream" before my stepmother called us.  She told me because the "dream" was so vivid & she knows I get into all that.

Mainly I believe because I do.  I am a practicing witch and I do believe in things beyond me.  It makes life more interesting and fun, but to each their own.

I have friends that have suffered through things that are not explainable. 

But not you personally?

Because I am not arrogant enough to think we are the only beings or realm that exists.

I'm not sure about the "realms" concept, but for beings, I would tend to believe just based on the sheer magnitude of the size of the universe and astronomical studies showing that there are a lot of planets out there.

There is growing evidence indicate other universes as well, though I don't know if that jibes with your definition of "realms".

I have heard things that cannot be explained.

I have also, though I have never attributed them to anything supernatural.

I believe in what I have been told by people I trust.

Makes perfect sense.  

Mainly I believe because I do.

I've never considered that a good reason, but again, these are your personal beliefs and at least you are able to explain them.  Too many people get offended when you ask "why".

I am a practicing witch and I do believe in things beyond me.  It makes life more interesting and fun, but to each their own.

You are right, it does help normal humdrum days from becoming too mundane.  Keeps that little spark of wonder, you had as a child, alive in the adult you.

Thank you for taking the time and answering, while I may not agree with many of the things you do, your ability to vocalize those beliefs show that you are serious about your beliefs and not just blindly following someone else.

There is growing evidence indicate other universes as well, though I don't know if that jibes with your definition of "realms".

Some people use the word realms, others planes of existence, others universes.  I believe that there are many & sometimes they intersect for whatever reason.  

Have you ever a male voice call your name in the middle of the night when the only two people that are there are a woman that has suffered a stroke and can't speak & you?  I have.  When I went to make sure all the doors & windows were locked I heard male laughter.  No one else around.  

I don't get offended when people ask me why I am following the path I am (believe me as a recovering Catholic I get asked a lot by family & friends).  I try to explain, but so many of them have their minds closed to the wonders beyond their god.  What does offend me is when they portray my beliefs as some baby eating, devil worshiping demon.  That irks me.  I realize most people will not understand what I do or what I believe, but it's all good so long as they do not tell me I am wrong (like so many here on NT attempt - not speaking of you - you know who I mean I hope).  

I like the thoughts of fairies, magick, nature, gathering strength though positive energy and being able to banish negative energy on my own.  

I like the thoughts of fairies, magick, nature, gathering strength though positive energy and being able to banish negative energy on my own.

Hey if it makes you feel better, I have no issues whatsoever with you believing what you want.  That is your right and if anyone tells you otherwise, you just tell them to blow it out of whichever opening you feel appropriate.

Now I have gotten on certain people on these forums, because they insist on trying to force their own personal beliefs onto others.  But that is completely different from what we have been discussing.

I have never encountered one (thank the goddess), but I believe things like that exist.  Like I said in another comment I believe they come through tears in the veil between the separate realms that make up the universe.  I know there are things that I cannot explain.  I heard them in my mother-in-law's (RIP) house when I was caring for her.  They scared the crap out of me. I just do not know what they are

Fortunately there are groups that can deal with them. Here's an example of them cleansing them from  none other than the main branch of the big New York City Public Library!

Fortunately there are groups that can deal with them. Here's an example of them cleansing them from  none other than the main branch of the big New York City Public Library!

Sorry for the derail, but I thought we could all use a bit of humour now-a-days.

There's a group of Actor's called "Improve Everywhere" that does these sorts of humorous Flashmobs:

The Ghostbusters show up at the New York Public Library, surprising people studying. Full story: improveverywhere... SUBSCRIBE: bit.ly

Join Us: improveverywhere Watch the full series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0pMP..." > youtube...

We brought the movie Ghostbusters to life in the reading room of The New York Public Library at 42 Street. The 1984 movie begins with a scene in the very same room, so we figured it was time for the Ghostbusters to make an encore appearance.

That was good. Thank you.

Sorry for the derail

No apologies needed.  I loved it.

because they insist on trying to force their own personal beliefs onto others.

I run into that myself. It gets old fast.

I have heard things that cannot be explained. 

Over the years I have also experienced (seeing, hearing, etc) many many things that have no "logical" explanation. Some things that I still find hard to believe.

I have not yet achieved a high degree of mastery of these phenomena. 

BTW, I am a second degree Reiki- - that is supposedy  a method of hands on healing-- that can be taught.(In that system, my experience of the 3rd degree Reiki that I experienced felt extremely powerful-- I intend to learn that someday).. However that's just what I experienced I make no claims that it would have any validity for anyone else)

Violent, disturbed, or tormented souls may have a stronger tie to this world; and could linger. They might originally be tied to places and objects; but when a highly susceptible person comes along the poltergeist attaches itself to them

From all the people I"ve spoken to who are knowlegable about this yes-- they are real.(Actually you described it pretty well).

but could another definition of demon be poltergeist?

Personally I choose to avoid the negative energies...so I'm no expert on that subject.

However IIRC correctly, Poltergeists are one specific type of Demon (although I don't think "Demon" has a clear established meaning...except perhaps in some conventional organized religions.

As mentioned, I have done a lot of Psychic work and also Astrology-- but only a little Mediumship (contacting the spirits of the deceased). When doing that, sometimes instead of the spirit the reader is seeking some negative ones appear of their own accord. But their are techniques to banish them that are relatively easy and effective.

There's also a wise olde saying amongst many advanced practitioners the Arcane Sciences:

Energy flows where attention goes.

Think about that a bit...

I don't believe in demons.  I don't have any evidence of any gods.  I clearly don't have all the answers.  One thing I'm sure of though is that anybody who claims to have all the answers is lying to you.  This includes all disseminators of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions.

anybody who claims to have all the answers is lying to you

One of the many reasons I left the Catholic Church.  I prefer my witchy stuff.  That is based on unknowns and of course Mother Nature.

I, too, am a disciple of Mother Nature.

The Catholic Church doesn't have all the answers, either, all tho they like to think they do. I bet there's a lot of stuff hidden in the Vatican archives about the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene

I give Her all the credit whenever I plant something

I remember one time here someone told me Mother Nature didn't exist, it was all god.  Gordy went all out on that one.  He said something like "at least you can see nature...it isn't invisible".

Jesus and Mary Magdalene

I love how they paint her as a whore, when in fact she was not.  They just have to make the women "bad".  If Jesus lived, I think Mary Magdalene was his wife.  He should have been married long before his 30th birthday.

Have you ever read "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal"?  My daughter had me read it - it was very funny.

No, but I should. I started reading a book by Laurence Gardner called "The Bloodline of the Holy Grail". Once I got past all the Bible stuff, it got really boring. I was more interested in how the author discussed Jesus' family and how he was of the House of David, therefore he the "Messiah" which is totally different in ancient Jewish times than what is forced down our throats today. He does say that Mary Magdalene was his wife and bore him 3 children and Jesus survived the crucifixion

I think I will check that one out.  

And he was only of the House of David through his stepfather.  That is why Mary had to marry Joseph - to make the prophecy true (even though it wasn't because he wasn't truly of the House of David).  

I never thought knew there was a chance he survived - I always took it that he died.  Now you have my interest peaked.

I bet there's a lot of stuff hidden in the Vatican archives about the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene

Why would they hide that, unless what evidence they have goes against church doctrine?

According to the book I read, Joseph really was his father. This book gives no creedence to the divinity of the Virgin Birth.

Anyway, it opened my eyes

unless what evidence they have goes against church doctrine?

Bingo

Remember how the Bible was put together

According to the book I read, Joseph really was his father.

Yea, that got me into trouble in our adult Bible study when hubby & I were still practising.  I made the suggestion that Mary was not a virgin & her & Joseph got busy befor ethey were married - damn the priest was angry with me.

Yea, that got me into trouble in our adult Bible study when hubby & I were still practising.  I made the suggestion that Mary was not a virgin & her & Joseph got busy befor ethey were married - damn the priest was angry with me.

I got in trouble in Sunday school class when the lady who was teaching, told us how there must be a god, because who else created the universe, and the universe could not have just been around forever.  I promptly asked where god came from, and her response was that god was always there.

I laughed and she couldn't understand why.  However I got punished when she told my parents that I'd disrupted the class.

When I taught Faith Formation (Sunday School) we had meetings about how to answer children's questions. 

About dinosaurs - answer:  god's days were longer than ours - so dinosaurs lived for a specific day OR god's joke on scientists - burying bones for them to dig up

The universe - god created it - he has always been

Sickness in family - god has his reason - makes you stronger 

Death - you are with god in heaven and all is wonderful

It got to me after a while.  The church members called it a crisis of faith & I needed to pray more and hit the confessional.  I stuck it out for a few more years as my faith in their god diminished.  Too many questions - no answers.

It was like lightening bolt hit me when I woke up and realized all those feelings I have had are not of the devil, but a part of me.  I embraced my deep empathic side and started down a road that led me to WIcca - still have questions, but not as bothered by no answers.  I am a happier person with the outlook on life of que sera sera.

The church members called it a crisis of faith & I needed to pray more and hit the confessional.

Some call it a crisis, others enlightenment.  All it means is that you were thinking for yourself and realizing that their answers for these very very simple questions, were utter bull.

It always astounds me to see how utterly personal believers take it, when they discover you have a different belief system.

I bet there's a lot of stuff hidden in the Vatican archives about the real story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene

I imagine that that is an amazing place....lots of very ancient mystical stuff hidden there! (Probably also a lot of Church history that they don't want to be known...for good reason!)

BTW, here's a large statue in the courtyard of the Vatican. Does anyone know what it represents-- and what the significance of it is?

It looks like a pine cone but I don't what the significance of it is. It could be one of those Pagan symbols the Catholic Church co-opted to convert the "sinners"

personal believers take it, when they discover you have a different belief system.

 I have found that out & the people that stopped talking to me was astounding to me.

I have found that out & the people that stopped talking to me was astounding to me.

Yeah.  It's not like we are challenging their life long held beliefs with logic and facts that they cannot dispute.  Oh wait......

Well, you know according to some if you don't believe in or follow their god you love evil.  

~SIGH~  I am so tired of the shit that only Christians are good.  It is sooooo fucked up.

Don't you know logic and facts (and reason) doesn't have a place in many religions.

It looks like a pine cone but I don't what the significance of it is. It could be one of those Pagan symbols the Catholic Church co-opted to convert the "sinners"

Right on both counts!

It is a Pine Cone. And apparently this particular statue was made by Pagans,,,I believed the Church captured it in a war long ago (?).

In several cultures the Pine Cone has some sort of mystic symbolism.

What I find interesting that there a small gland in the human brain that resembles a Pine Cone-- its called The Pineal Gland.

Some people feel that it is related to Psychic experiences--  it may be the "Third Eye" ??? Supposedly if a brain is sliced open-- in half vertically-- the result looks like the mystical Eye of Horus of the Ancient Egyptians. (See Picture HERE)

(I don't know much about the Ancient Egyptian religion-- but apparently it was very highly evolved).

I clearly don't have all the answers.  One thing I'm sure of though is that anybody who claims to have all the answers is lying to you.  This includes all disseminators of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions.

I wonder...does it also include the more evangelical types of Atheists? 

How about the "Scientific types" who are always trying to convert people to their belief systems..?

How about the "Scientific types" who are always trying to convert people to their belief systems..?

'Belief system' and science are opposites.

What belief system? Science doesn't deal with beliefs. Unlike religion, Science uses actual evidence to "convert" someone.

Science doesn't deal with beliefs.

Well,that's what many Scientists claim...

(My experience is that while many people claim they are not ruledby beliefs-- or even have them-- that's often not the case.)

And sometimes, It is the case. But science itself is not likely to use religious belief as an explanation for things.

And sometimes, It is the case. But science itself is not likely to use religious belief as an explanation for things.

There's a wise saying:

Its the truly wise man who knows how much he doesn't know.

(Ignoring the obvious sexism...over many years I have found that to be true)

But science itself is not likely to use religious belief as an explanation for things.

Definitely!

Science, when properly done, uses logic. &tests things to see if they're true. 

However, scientists are only human (well, most of them anyway). And some of them occasionally become attached to some beliefs ...sometimes even not realizing it.

Obviously a good Scientist,is aware of it when (or if) they start to get attached to something that is merely a belief but isn't proven.

That's why scientists follow the scientific method and are subjected to peer review. It helps minimize bias as best as possible

Perhaps it's not so much about what is known or unknown. But rather what is evidenced or demonstrable. 

One thing I'm sure of though is that anybody who claims to have all the answers is lying to you.  This includes all disseminators of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions.

I agree. Although I would expand that beyond religions to include many in the world of Science as well.

This includes all disseminators of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions

You forgot the big bang.

You forgot the big bang.

At least the Big Bang has supporting empirical evidence. That's something that is often lacking with religious based claims.

If God is all powerful and he wants me to believe in him then I will believe in him.

AND??? Do you?

I do not.  He's clearly not that powerful at all.

He's clearly not that powerful at all.

I am with you on that judgment.

I do not.  He's clearly not that powerful at all.

I've been reading all the comments people are making in here. Pretty depressing, really, how little everyone understands what, or I should say, who they deny. I wasn't going to comment to any of it but yours caught my eye. I'm curious to know why you believe the following.

If God is all powerful and he wants me to believe in him then I will believe in him.

This is a Calvinistic view of God, so I'm wondering if that is where you got this belief. If someone who is a Calvinist told you this is how it works with God. 

This is a Calvinistic view of God, so I'm wondering if that is where you got this belief. If someone who is a Calvinist told you this is how it works with God. 

Members of other denominations would probably explain that the Calvinist view of God is inaccurate-- and there is a correct view!

And which view of the nature of God is correct?

Well the one that they believe in of course! 

Members of other denominations would probably explain that the Calvinist view of God is inaccurate-- and there is a correct view!

Undoubtedly. However, the question really isn't worth pursuing, to my mind, since there isn't any way to prove it conclusively one way or the other. And, since it isn't a core issue, it can only serve to divide, not unify. 

Calvinists don't believe in free will, do they? They are the predestination types?

Anyway. I believe in a "God" but it's not the kind of God you believe in

Pretty depressing, really, how little everyone understands what, or I should say, who they deny.

A tad condescending.  I understand perfectly.  I was once indoctrinated into the all powerful god you choose.  I found my way out.  I do not disbelieve in your god.  I just think he is like all the other gods/goddesses that exist, but has a super-ego, is narcissistic, a sadist and over all a rotten piece of shit. That is what I have gleaned from all of Christianity's god.  

And I find it depressing that people actually worship him & try to force others to do the same. 

I do not disbelieve in your god. 

I go one step beyond that.   I do disbelieve in the God of the Bible.   The reason, for me, is that I am fully convinced that the Bible is simply the work of ancient men weaving stories based on lore and their times for the purpose of controlling the population.   (Many reasons why I hold this position.)   In general, because the Bible is demonstrably errant (and thus NOT the word of a perfect, omniscient entity) and because the Bible defines God as a contradiction (e.g. an omniscient entity who can be surprised, disappointed, angered, etc.) I know that the Christian God —as defined by the Bible— does not exist.

This does not mean that no god exists, simply that an entity defined as a contradiction cannot exist (as defined).

Funny story.  Last night I was getting my hair done and my stylist and I were chatting about a lot of things.  She knows I am Wiccan and has never made a snide comment or anything and I know she is born again & I have never disrespected her religion.  We do have very good discussions.  Last night we were discussing the KJV and that is the one she uses.  I told her that King James is the one that made "witches' evil and belonging to Satan.  She was a little skeptical so I brought it up on my phone.  She was shocked.  I told her the translation was poisoner not witch and he did it because he was scared of witches and this sparked some of the witch hunts.

One of the most famous lines of the King James Bible – at least in witchcraft studies – is Exodus 22:18 , “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” The line was used to justify England’s major witch hunts, as when self-appointed Witch-Finder General Matthew Hopkins included it on the front of his pamphlet about catching witches.

In the 1640s, during England's Civil War, Hopkins was single-handedly responsible for killing 300 people. He used the King James Bible as a religious justification for hunting and executing witches. But the entire thing was a mistranslation from the Hebrew word mekhashepha . 

Greek translations of the Old Testament transformed the Hebrew word mekhashepha into the Greek pharmakeia . But neither word means witch . Mekhashepha likely meant a herbalist or a poisoner. When the word was first translated into Greek by Jewish sages around the 3rd century BCE, they used the Greek word pharmakeia , which also meant herbalist or poisoner. 

ranker

Not to mention all his other "changes"  Which goes to prove that you are right that MAN wrote the Bible the way they wanted it to be.

That just goes to show the danger of blindly following the words of a book/s written by ancient men, no questions asked. Unfortunately, many people, including some here on NT, do just that.

I gave up my blindness and now pretty much follow my own path.  When someone (a fellow witch) tries to tell me how I should do things I simply say "to each their own" and go about my business as I see fit - you can't do that in most organized religions.  Heaven forbid if you have your own thought on something.  

I try to avoid those people on NT now - they just stress me out.... I don't want their shit, don't need their shit, not gonna shoulder their shit.  Sometimes I think they just want people to suffer with guilt as they do.....sin sin sin - wooooooooo..

Sorry - end of high horse.

There's no high horse. You're exactly right. 

Not to mention all his other "changes"  Which goes to prove that you are right that MAN wrote the Bible the way they wanted it to be.

I think that that's true/

But the cause of the confusion also goes even beyond the way it was written.

Because I think that MAN interprets the Bible the way they want to interpret it!

(Most people are pretty certain they know what each passage in the Bible means. But two people reading the same verse often interpret it differently!)

you can't do that in most organized religions.

True enough!

Although there are some religions-- or at least some denominations-- that tend to be more tolerant than others.

For the most part Quakers, Jains, the Baha'i and a few others are not only tolerant of others beliefs ,but their religious teachings encourage tolerance. Probably most Wiccans as well...(?)

(Of course in any group there will be individual exceptions...).

Pretty depressing, really, how little everyone understands what, or I should say, who they deny

Well, if there's any good news there-- I suppose we can all be grateful that there are enlightened people like yourself who never would do anything like that!

Calvinists don't believe in free will, do they? They are the predestination types?

Sorry, I didn't see this until now. As far as I understand them, no, they don't believe in free will. Near as I can tell, they believe if we have free will then God can't be sovereign. Personally, I don't understand that position. Why can't a sovereign God let people have free will if He wants to? Are they not limiting God's sovereignty by saying God can't allow free will and be sovereign at the same time? 

For myself, if I feel like I have free will, even if it is limited, then I most likely have free will. 

A tad condescending.

LOL. Unlike the comments made by you and everyone else on your side of the argument? Please. 

Greek translations of the Old Testament transformed the Hebrew word mekhashepha into the Greek pharmakeia . But neither word means witch . Mekhashepha likely meant a herbalist or a poisoner. When the word was first translated into Greek by Jewish sages around the 3rd century BCE, they used the Greek word pharmakeia , which also meant herbalist or poisoner.

I don't know what your source is but it's wrong. I'm looking at the Hebrew word right now and it is definitely witch or sorceress. And while pharmakeia is used in the LXX your translation of 'poisoner' makes no contextual sense in most of the places pharmakeia is used. For instance,

11 Then and , and the of by their the . 12 his , and the staffs . But their. 13 Yet, and he did them, just the had . Exodus 7:11.

Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-11

The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. Deuteronomy 18:14

He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger. 2 Chronicles 33:6

There's more but this get's the point across. Even though pharmakeia can also mean herbalist or poisoner, it doesn't fit contextually in any of the passages. Witch or sorceress is the correct translation. 

Of course, this won't change anything for you and, likely, you'll deny this evidence. I felt it important to put the truth out there, though. 

For myself, if I feel like I have free will, even if it is limited, then I most likely have free will. 

To have even a limited free will, the future cannot be knowable.   If the future is knowable then it is necessarily deterministic and thus all future actions could (logically) be calculated from the present state.

If it is logically possible to calculate what you will do at 10:03am next Wednesday morning then your actions at 10:03am next Wednesday are not the result of free will.

Pretty depressing, really, how little everyone understands what, o

True-- most of us here understand very little.

Well, except you of course.

Imagine...if everyone knew as much as you...and understood as much as you do..what a wonderful world it would be!

But any religion (or any non-religious belief system for that matter) that takes so many words to explain is not...well let's just say its not exactly my cup of tea!

(sigh)

What's wrong with what Krishna said? He's exercising his "free will" and his constitutional rights

Many people assume that if a God exists, she would want people to worship her. But IMO that's a belief foisted upon us by organized religions. (Because religions have something to gain by perpetrating that belief amongst "the faithful").

Imagine if there is a God ..one that is all all present, all knowing, and all powerful. If such an entity does exist-- why would she feel the need to be worshipped? (Only a being who had serious doubts about their powers would feel a need for their powers to be validated by mere mortals-- if they were really all that powerful they really couldn't give a hoot  what inferior beings such as humans think!

Also-- why would such a wise, power entity have such a big Ego anyway?

I will give you the answer from a Christian point of view. That is, how we see what you are speaking of. 

God wants us to worship Him, that is true, but He doesn't need us to worship Him. While worship pleases Him it doesn't fulfill something lacking in Himself. He wants us to worship Him because it is good for us. To understand why, you need to understand worship as Christians do, or are supposed to. 

Most people think of worship as something purely religious. Something done specifically at various times and ways. They think of it in terms of rituals and traditions. That isn't worship. That's religion. Worship, to God, is what you give your time, effort, attention and affections to. That can be anything. Growing up, my dad worshipped golf. He played it every chance he could, even when he should have been paying more attention to his family and not leaving his three children for my mom to babysit all the time. Watched it on TV every chance he had. He talked about it all the time. Only had friends that played golf and so on. That is literally worship, as God sees it. And what made golf my dad's idol. 

The level of worship my dad gave to golf is what God wants from us, but in such a fashion that nothing else comes close. But, not only does God not expect us to just suddenly start worshipping Him in that manner, it isn't even possible. Anyone who tried would just be faking it. Performing a mere ritual. Going through the motions. The reason is that one can only truly worship what they love. Some people love money so they spend their lives pursuing it. Some love music so they build their life around it. Some love fame so they spend their time, effort, attention and affections to achieve it above all else. They can only do so because they, in some manner, love what they pursue. On the other hand, imagine hating to cook but trying to be a world famous chef. 

So, to worship God fully and in truth, you have to love God. Again, though, you can't just turn on love for God any more than you can just turn on meaningful worship of God. You can't just walk up to some stranger on the the street and just turn on the love for them. Sure, you can show them love, but you aren't loving them because of who they are. You can't because you don't know them. You're showing them love because it's what you believe is right to show people. But like anyone you've just met, you have to get to know them first to be able to love them for who they are. It is the same with God. To love God one has to get to know God. 

If you've followed what I've said so far (whether you agree with it or not) then you might understand why I say worship is much more for our sake than God's in what I say next. It will take  three parts to explain so bear with me, please. And again, I'm explaining all this from the Christian perspective in order to answer your question as we see it. 

Pleasure of love

Being in love doesn't only relate to romantic involvement. It means any relationship based on love. Mother and child. Friend and friend. Loving someone else, whatever kind, feels good. It is emotionally satisfying and we take pleasure in being loved in return. From the Christian's perspective, God is not only the source of love but it is infinite. When we belong to Him He loves us unreservedly. That's an amazing feeling and eminently comforting. And when someone you love does something for you because they love you, do you not show them appreciation? And does not the other appreciate your appreciation? 

God is awesome and His way is right

When we look around at this world, we see a lot of suffering. Most of it we bring on ourselves. From our own personal suffering, the suffering we endure from those around us and the suffering we visit on ourselves worldwide. Man bought the lie of Satan in the Garden that we could decide for ourselves what was good and evil. Try as we have, the world still is as broken as it ever was. People are just as bad as they ever were. We haven't changed at all.

For those of us who believe God, not just believe that He exists but believe what He says about what is good and what is evil, we discover He is absolutely right. And when we obey Him, do the things He says to do and avoid the things He says we shouldn't do, we are happier for it. We feel more at peace. Not because we have to do them but because we understand why He is right in what He says. We don't do them because it scores us God points. We do them because we are in agreement that they are right. We believe in it. 

God loves me in spite of myself

God doesn't love me because I'm a good guy or because I've done something worthy of His love. I'm not and I haven't. I was made in the image of God, which means I am supposed to be an image of God. I can barely comprehend just how badly I have failed and continue to fail in that purpose for which He created me. In spite of that, God loves me with all that He is, and I can barely understand that, too, but what I do understand I wouldn't give up for anything. 

So, to us Christians who know what worship actually is, it is the natural response of one who loves God, understands (or begins to) how awesome He is and knows he is inseparably loved in spite of himself. Worship isn't some ritual done on a specific day and in a particular manner. It is the devotion of one's life to a God who enjoys relationship with me so much He gave His only Son to allow it to happen. We worship God not because He needs it. We worship because He deserves it and it pleases Him and because we love Him. Do you not do something similar for those you love? 

So, hopefully this answers your question or, at least, gives you the Christian view of it in a manner that is understandable. Thanks for listening if you made it this far. 

I carefully read your entire post.

It triggered several questions but I will offer just one and leave the balance to Krishna since you were replying to him.

XX recently informed everyone that only about 25% of the world's population will be saved.   This, from prior posts, is based on the notion that only those who have accepted the Christian God will be saved.

Is that, in your opinion, how divine love works?   75% failure rate?   If you were brought up Hindu or Buddhist (or ...) and hold beliefs particular to your culture (as most people do) you are eternally screwed by the luck of the draw?

75% failure rate?

Sounds like an engineering problem....

Yup.  Well God would qualify as the ultimate engineer IMO. 

Is that, in your opinion, how divine love works?   75% failure rate?   If you were brought up Hindu or Buddhist (or ...) and hold beliefs particular to your culture (as most people do) you are eternally screwed by the luck of the draw?

Short answer, I don't know how God will judge them. I don't know what percentage will or won't be saved. I believe those who have heard of Jesus and knows what he did but reject him anyway are most likely lost. Those who love evil over good. My understanding is that, as a servant of God, my job is to bring the good news to others. Judgment is God's business. 

Beyond that I won't speak, because I don't know the answer and it doesn't relate to the subject Krishna brought up. 

Those who love evil over good.

So people that don't believe in your god love evil?  Truly you believe that?  So the only way to love good is to believe in your god?  Truly????  What about all the evil that has been perpetrated in the name of your god????  Evil or good?  Or they not true Christians?

You know, I don't know that many people who reject good for evil and a lot of them aren't Christians. So...if someone is telling me I have to embrace Jesus and that he was divine and performed miracles, and died on a cross for me or I'm evil...I reject that person.

I think there's a lot of good stuff in the New Testament about loving your neighbor, turn the other cheek...and my favorite...The Beatitudes. Funny how you never hear Christians talking about The Beatitudes. I like Jesus, I think he was a great philosopher, if he existed. I like him along the same lines I like Buddha and Confucisius.

For the longest time I hid my move from worshiping the Christian god to a nature based religion because I was afraid of being called evil.  My son (Pagan) told me that I had to get beyond that fear, to worship openly to find peace.  I think the person I was most worried about not accepting me was my daughter (Catholic).  I had nothing to fear.  She joins in our feast days, I still make her holidays special for her and it has been a relief.  I have had some friends and even family that condem my soul to hell, but since I don't believe in hell - kind of an empty threat.  

The biggest surprise was my fundamentalist niece and her husband accepting what I am.  I treat their children as if they were my grandkids (spoil them rotten) and they are happy I have created a relationship.  I haven't told them that their daughter with spina bifida and developmental delays and I have been speaking to each other via minds for a few years now.  I think it would freak them out.  My sister knows.

You raised your daughter to be tolerant so it's understandable that she embraces you and your beliefs. Besides...everybody likes extra feast days!

I'm glad that your niece and her husband accept you, too. And I think it's really cool that you and your grandniece can communicate like that

Can you imagine a world where people are tolerant of people's differences?  

While worship pleases Him it doesn't fulfill something lacking in Himself.

If no one worshiped him, then would that not mean it would deprive him of 'pleasure' as you claim?

Pleasing: adjective - satisfying or appealing.

" imagine hating to cook but trying to be a world famous chef."

Well, if I was convinced that not becoming a world famous chef would lead to my eternal torment then no matter how much I hated to cook I'd likely give it my best. Religion often uses threats to induce worship, and many have used threats of violence in the here and now to force conversions.

en.wikipedia

" to worship God fully and in truth, you have to love God"

The old "Love me or else!" that the early Israelites were taught. The first two commandments were:

• “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.”
• “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”  

Violating either of those commandments was a death sentence at that time. The Hebrew God was a regretful, angry, violent, jealous God as is made clear in the Hebrew scriptures. This is supposedly the same God that Christians worship today.

" When we look around at this world, we see a lot of suffering."

Yeah, that's what every evolved creature trying to survive on an often deadly and merciless planet deal with and have been since they were single celled organisms floating in ancient primordial seas.

" Man bought the lie of Satan in the Garden that we could decide for ourselves what was good and evil."

To believe that one would have to suspend rational thinking, believe in an evil being that has never been proven to exist and has exactly zero evidence to support its existence and believe in a literal Genesis account which does not fit with any known science or facts.

"I was made in the image of God"

Ah, the sheer hubris of such a statement, but not surprising, especially for many right wing Christian conservatives who have clung to thoughts of superiority for centuries.

Can you imagine a world where people are tolerant of people's differences?  

That Q wasn't addressed to me but I'll answer it anyway! 

Yes-- I can imagine it-- I frequently do.(Visualization)

But do I predict it will happen in the near future?

Nope.

So people that don't believe in your god love evil?  Truly you believe that?

Yes, I believe that, although I doubt you and I have the same definition of what constitutes evil. I'm sure there's some overlap but not the same in ultimate terms. Also, I believe evil is the natural state of mankind. We just tend not to see it that way because who wants to think they're evil and our criteria for what constitutes evil are made up of our own ideas. We usually judge ourselves by comparing ourselves to someone else. "I know I'm not perfect but at least I'm not as bad as that guy over there." God has a different set of criteria. 

So the only way to love good is to believe in your god?  Truly???? 

Since we were created to be images of God, we have the capacity to love and we do so. Since I don't know what your concept of loving "good" entails I can't really say much about it except that we can't love the way we were created to love without God. God created us to work together with Him to achieve His purposes for this world. To function properly as true human beings, we must be connected to God because we were designed to be connected to God. Without that connection we get the world we have today. 

What about all the evil that has been perpetrated in the name of your god???? Evil or good?  Or they not true Christians?

Yes, there's plenty of examples of that, although not as much as some like to claim. Some like to claim there have been more wars fought over religion than anything else. Not even close. Still, what there is is bad enough. And of course it is as evil as anything anyone else does. Ravi Zacharias was a pretty well know Christian apologist. A lot of us looked up to him but, after he died last year, it came out that he had done some terrible things and nobody knew. You can look it up for yourself. It was a real gut punch to us, though. 

The point, however, is that just because someone or some organization claims to be Christian doesn't necessarily mean they are. It doesn't mean they are not, either, except in the most egregious examples. And any Christian who claims they don't have evil in their hearts might be trying to sell you something. Becoming a real Christian doesn't magically remove the evil from one's heart. We are just as capable of evil as anyone you care to name. Real Christians fall down all the time. We fail all the time. 

So, evil or good? A Christian doing evil doesn't make the evil less evil. As to whether they are really Christian or not? Well, the Bible says you can tell a tree by it's fruit. No Christian is perfect in this life but, generally, a true Christian should produce the fruit of the Spirit. They are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and gentleness and self-control. But even Christians who exemplify these traits still fail from time to time, so unless it's something really obvious, like Copeland, I prefer to leave the judgement up to God. 

So, now that I've done my best to answer your questions as best and as honestly as I can, answer one for me, please. What I said about worship. Do you understand it? Can you see, at least from my point of view, that worship isn't simply a needy God demanding His due? 

Ah, the sheer hubris of such a statement, but not surprising, especially for many right wing Christian conservatives who have clung to thoughts of superiority for centuries.

Hubris is no more a factor in claiming we are made in God's image than saying humans are born to breathe air. Another way to say it, and perhaps gets the meaning across better is that we were created to be God's representatives in creation. To act on His behalf, not our own. To be a reflection of God, not to be God. Hubris would be involved if one thought somehow it was all about themselves, rather than God. It's not. It's a job description that carries tremendous honor, not because of ourselves but because of who we reflect. In a lamp it is the flame that is important, not the lamp.  

I will give you the answer from a Christian point of view.

Which Christianity are you speaking of?

The Roman Catholic version-- or the Southern Baptist version?

Episcopal-- or the Coptic version? Seventh day Adventist version-- or The Unitarian Universalists? The Mormon's interpretation of Christianity-- or the Assyrian?

People are just as bad as they ever were. We haven't changed at all.

Well...perhaps you're hangin' with the wrong crowd?

I have known many truly evil people over the years....but the last few years I have consciously made the choice not to associate with that type-- I only interact with positive,enlightened people. 

Its a choice....

(Well, except for brief bouts of interacting on Social Media sites).

Which Christianity are you speaking of?

The one Christ established. 

Hubris is no more a factor in claiming we are made in God's image than saying humans are born to breathe air.

Hubris is claiming that there is an all powerful omniscient being that could create or destroy the universe with the snap of its fingers and that "We" humans are made in it's image and that it knows each of us and is apparently desperate for our love and attention.

To be a reflection of God, not to be God.

Is that like telling everyone you know that you think you look like Brad Pitt even though you really look like Danny DeVito?

"But I'm just a reflection of Brad Pitt, not Brad Pitt himself...". I'm sure all your friends will understand.

Hubris would be involved if one thought somehow it was all about themselves

"An all powerful eternal creator God knows me, loves me, wants my worship, listens to my prayers, effects the reality in my life and was the mold from which I was made... but this isn't all about me...".

"It's a job description that carries tremendous honor, not because of ourselves but because of who we reflect"

"So you all know I was made in the bosses image, and I'm telling you this is how the boss wants you to live, act, love, eat, sleep, worship, and if you don't do what I tell you you're going to burn in hell for eternity, but that's not me telling you to do it, that's the boss, and don't bother asking for proof that the boss exists".

Lol, he never established a church. And that was one of the worst non answers I have ever seen. How am I supposed to take Christianity seriously when comments like yours are the answers to legitimate questions?

How religious folks can take themselves seriously is beyond me.

Confirmation bias.    Hold a belief and then accept only input that reinforces said belief.   Works superbly for religion and partisan politics.

Lol, he never established a church.

Okay, what's your reasoning behind this statement, which makes about as much sense as someone claiming George Washington was never President. Or is it simply that you've never actually read the Bible except maybe to quote mine it for what you think it says? 

How am I supposed to take Christianity seriously when comments like yours are the answers to legitimate questions?

It wasn't a legitimate question that I answered, since he wasn't really asking a question in the first place but, rather, trying to make a point through a question about something he has no real interest in actually learning the answer to. 

As for how you are supposed to take Christianity seriously is pretty much the same sort of question. That is, it isn't really a question but rather a statement posed as a question. You have no intention of taking Christianity seriously no matter what I say. 

Which Christianity are you speaking of?

The one Christ established.

So with your answer-- we're right back to square one!

Which of these religions is true to the principles of the one that Christ established? They have major differences-- so which one is authentic-- that actually is true to what Christ taught??

The Roman Catholic version-- or the Southern Baptist version?

Episcopal-- or the Coptic version?

Seventh day Adventist version-- or The Unitarian Universalists?

The Mormon's interpretation of Christianity-- or the Assyrian?

Russian Orthodox-- Greek Orthodox perhaps?

Are Pentecostals the ones who are closest to the Christianity that Christ founded?

Jehovah's Witnesses?

Which of these religions is true to the principles of the one that Christ established?

Good question. The answer remains the same. The one Christ established. As I pointed out earlier, you aren't asking a question. You are trying to point out that, since there are many different denominations, you think it shows none of them know what the truth is or even if any of them are true. Apparently, you want me to tell you which is true, or at least truer and why. 

To that I say, what would be the point of my doing that? You aren't interested in the answer and even if you were, why believe whatever I have to say on the subject? What makes me the expert that you could rely on? If ever you do actually want the answer to your question you're going to have to find it yourself. What does the Bible say about it, in other words. People like to say you can get whatever answer you want out of the Bible, and that's true. People do exactly that but you can do that with anything. The question is, what did the authors of the books of the Bible intend to communicate? That is not subject to interpretation. They most definitely intended something or they wouldn't have written it. 

But any religion (or any non-religious belief system for that matter) that takes so many words to explain is not...well let's just say its not exactly my cup of tea!

Yeah, not surprised but also why I won't give you an answer beyond "The one Christ established. Why would I waste my time giving you an answer you aren't actually interested in or be bothered to think about? 

Yes, I believe that

I feel sorry for you.

What I said about worship. Do you understand it? Can you see, at least from my point of view, that worship isn't simply a needy God demanding His due? 

I was a Catholic for most of my life, so I understand worship and I can see your point of view.  I just do not agree.  I have been where you are & it turned me bitter and angry.  Just like so many see you here.  You demand that we understand your god & if we don't you label us evil in your eyes.  As I said - I feel sorry for you and others that see things as you do - you are missing out on so much in life to remain close minded & angry.  I found my freedom.  

Drakk defines evil differently than what is conventional.   He should explain this because I do not think his comment got the point across very well.   I think (not sure) that Drakk views evil to be 'not following the way of his concept of god' rather than evil='wicked, intentionally doing harm, ...'.

Seeing as how even Christians see god differently it must be hard deciding what is evil & what is not.

Indeed.   Trying to make well-reasoned sense of all beliefs would drive one crazy.

The one Christ established. 

Which one was that? All the Christian churches claim to have a lock on what He was actually about. Some of them can't even come to an agreement on whether he was divine or not.

Which denomination do you belong to?

I feel sorry for you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. There really isn't a need for you to feel sorry about it, I mean. If you actually understood what I believe I don't think you'd feel quite so sorry for me.

I was a Catholic for most of my life, so I understand worship and I can see your point of view.

I don't know how to say this without sounding demeaning but... growing up Catholic probably is the biggest barrier to your understanding of the things I have said so far in this thread. I can say that because I was raised Catholic as well. Went to school in the Catholic school system until switching to public school in the 5th grade. Went to mass. Was confirmed. Even my Boy Scout troop was at the Church/school. Everyone on both sides of my family were all Catholics. 

I can't tell you how astonished I was the first time my mother took us to a Protestant church. Rather than get into a long explanation, I'll just list some differences.

1. The Catholic church (hereafter meaning the official institution and not individuals identifying a Catholic) teach Catholic dogma as developed by the church over the years whereas Protestants teach people to read the Bible for themselves. They are taught they don't need an organization to tell them what to believe but have the responsibility of finding out for themselves who God is and what He wants from us. 
2. The Catholic church believes the Pope speaks for God and therefore can and has changed what is written in the Bible. This means that, according to the Catholic church, divine inspiration is still ongoing, revealed by whatever the Pope reveals. Protestant churches believe the Bible is complete as is and no further divine inspiration concerning it occurs. The reasoning is that if someone comes along, say like a Pope, and claims divine revelation for something that contradicts what's already in the Bible, say the idea of Purgatory, then the Bible pretty much becomes useless because no on can trust what it says any longer. How could they when someone can come along later and claim divine inspiration? 
3. In the Catholic church, you have to go through the priesthood to get access to God. Forgiveness of sins, confession and the like. In Protestant churches, you have access to God directly at all times with no middle man. 

Those are just a few.

I just do not agree.  I have been where you are & it turned me bitter and angry.  Just like so many see you here.

I have no problem with you not agreeing. You are not accountable to me. I can't say whether you've been where I am. I tend to doubt it because all you know is Catholicism. My father is a bitter man when it comes to religion. He believes in God but I believe he's so warped in his religious thinking due to Catholicism that he can't bear to speak about it. I know it bothers him a lot and it hurts that I can't share the largest part of my life with him.

You demand that we understand your god & if we don't you label us evil in your eyes.

First, I've never demanded anything from you or anyone else in here. Second, there's no "if". That is, I don't label you or anyone else evil "if" you don't understand God. I label people evil because it's our nature. All of us, Christians included. No matter how successful I become at doing everything God asks me to do and doing it all in the manner and reasons He wants me to do them, I will always have evil as a part of my nature in this life. No natural human being ever escapes it in this life. To explain I'll quote TiG and go from there. 

Drakk defines evil differently than what is conventional.   He should explain this because I do not think his comment got the point across very well.   I think (not sure) that Drakk views evil to be ' not following the way of his concept of god ' rather than evil=' wicked, intentionally doing harm, ... '.

He is correct, as far as it goes. Certainly being wicked (assuming a standard definition of the term), intentionally doing harm etc etc is evil but the kind of evil I'm talking about is fundamentally different from those things. Those things stem from what I am talking about. It's not even ' not following the way of his concept of god '  as TiG puts it, but it's closely related. 

I'm sure everyone knows the story about the Tree of Good and Evil. I believe most people misunderstand it, or at least miss the real point behind it. It isn't simply that Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Bad as that was, the real issue was much worse than that. It began with the lie Satan told them.

“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her.  “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

These two sentences are the start of it all. All the pain and suffering we've experienced since that time. All the heartache, loneliness, death and cruelty. Two sentences that they chose to believe. 

The lie was two fold. First, that they would become like God. Do you know any people you'd refer to as God? Second, that they would know good and evil. Not simply that they would know what God knew to be good and evil. Satan meant that they would be able to establish for themselves what was good and what was evil. 

That's the first half of what constitutes the evil we all carry in us. We think we, out of our own wisdom, intelligence and rationality, can determine what is right and wrong and we don't need anyone else to tell us what it is. You might be tempted to say, "But I don't need anyone to tell me that murdering someone is wrong!" Is that true? Suppose you'd been born an Aztec? Do you think, when they sacrificed so many people on one occasion that it took days that you would have been objecting? Just look at the dismal history of the human race. We never have gotten things right. We're a technologically advanced as we've ever been and yet humanity continues to act the same as it ever has. In fact, looking at the world today, one has to wonder sometimes how much time we've got left as a species. 

The second half isn't necessarily evil but what the first half does is warp it into something ugly. Desire. We all feel the need of some undefinable something to fill our lives with. Something that fills us with purpose. Something that makes us feel complete. Worth something. Our hearts seek connection with something that fills the void in us.   

So, to put it as simply as I can so I don't go on too long, we unconsciously (most of the time) combine both halves to fulfill desire. In other words, it causes us to be self-centered. We justify what we do in order to fill the void. How many times have any of us done what we know we shouldn't have because we wanted to do it? There's a saying that when someone does the right thing they don't explain why they did it but when they did what they shouldn't have, they always have an excuse as to why it was necessary. That's the evil I'm talking about. It's the thing in us that, even when we do the right thing, even when it costs us, it's that part that wanted to do it the other way. It's that thing in us that, when we first started doing it it felt wrong but the more we did it the more it didn't bother us, until we didn't even care. It's the thing in us that keeps us closed to others out of self defense. It's anger, rage, selfishness, deceit and the whole rest of the laundry list that plagues us all. 

Raping a child is evil, but it doesn't come from nowhere, but rather, what's in a person's heart. That most of us restrain our worst tendencies doesn't mean our hearts are better, just that we're better at restraining it. That's the kind of evil I mean.   

As I said - I feel sorry for you and others that see things as you do - you are missing out on so much in life to remain close minded & angry.  I found my freedom. 

As I said, there's no need to feel sorry for me. While I won't be able to convince you, I'm not closed minded. It is not closed minded to reject something because I believe in something that's better. It doesn't mean I don't understand it or that I haven't experienced it. I simply believe in a way that I am convinced is better. 

Seeing as how even Christians see god differently it must be hard deciding what is evil & what is not.

We don't see Him as differently as many here seem to think. Further, we study the Bible to understand what God has to say about what is good and evil, of which Jesus was the primary example. Goes back to what I said in the previous post. We believe God has determined what is good and what is evil and we try to discover what that is and live by it because we love Him. 

Which denomination do you belong to?

I don't claim a denomination. I think they get in the way. The way I think of it I try to be as like Jesus as I can be, not be as like a denomination as I can be. 

It is not closed minded to reject something because I believe in something that's better.

No, it is close minded to think people that do not think & worship as you do are evil.  ANd that your beliefs are better than everyone else.  THAT is closed minded & I do feel sorry for you because you will never experience the joy of meeting & learning about things that you consider "evil" because they are different than you.

I am done having you "explain" to me about anything - you seem to know less about life than any other person on NT.

Good day.

Good day.

To you as well.

If God is all powerful and he wants me to believe in him then I will believe in him.

Now if there was a God-- how would you know what she would want you to do?

Now if there was a God-- how would you know what she would want you to do?

Isn't it funny how some people claim to know what God wants based on their own beliefs or on what someone else says?

Isn't it funny how some people claim to know what God wants based on their own beliefs or on what someone else says?

And often its not even limited to religious views...many people form there views on many things based upon their beliefs... or what someone else says...

For example, people who read one article-- or watch one video-- on the Internet...and then are sure that they are an expert on the subject!

For example, people who read one article on the Internet...and then are sure that they are an expert on the subject!

I was going to say "people who read one book on the subject"-- but most people today are either incapable of reading an entire book-- or choose not too!

I tend to think people just make things up and spread their BS where other accept it, no questions asked. Hmm, much like some religions I suppose.

I have returned.  I will try to get to all the comments I missed before the article was locked.  I appreciate all the comments and discussion.

'Now when [Jesus] stepped ashore, there met him a certain man who for a long time was possessed by a devil.... Many times it had laid hold of him and he was bound with chains.... but he would break the bonds asunder.... And Jesus asked him, saying, "What is thy name?" And he said Legion....' Luke 8:27-30

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James Torello: Jackson was hung up on that meat hook. He was so heavy he bent it. He was on that thing three days before he croaked.

Frank Buccieri (giggling): Jackie, you shoulda seen the guy. Like an elephant, he was, and when Jimmy hit him with that electric prod...

Torello (excitedly): He was floppin' around on that hook, Jackie. We tossed water on him to give the prod a better charge, and he's screamin'....

Excerpt from FBI wiretap of Cosa Nostra telephone conversation relating to murder of William Jackson

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...There's no other explanation for some of the things the Communists did. Like the priest who had eight nails driven into his skull.... And there were seven little boys and their teacher. They were praying the Our Father when soldiers came upon them. One soldier whipped out his bayonet and sliced off the teacher's tongue. The other took chopsticks and drove them into the ears of the seven little boys. How do you treat cases like that?

Dr. Tom Dooley

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Dachau
Auschwitz
Buchenwald

These are the passages the author William Peter Blatty  chose to open his novel The Exorcist.

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I think Blatty's point was that evil is a real thing and manifests itself in this world. 

evil is a real thing and manifests itself in this world. 

I agree wholeheartedly.  I just think it is humans that create the evil & perpetuates the evil.  There is no need for demons when humans still exist.

(deleted)

I know where I believe the Great Evil comes from.  

Where? 

Humans.  

Ah. 

I think good and evil are inherent in existence but I do concede it takes human beings to express them. As far as we know. 

Your belief kind of concludes that life as it exists elsewhere, if it does, would not experience good and evil unless there were humans around. 

Your belief kind of concludes that life as it exists elsewhere, if it does, would not experience good and evil unless there were humans around. 

Kind of hard for me to say since the only life I have experienced has humans in it.  If I were to hazard a guess I am sure there are evil entities in the other realms, but I can only be positive about what I experience first hand.