My quest to find the perfect second car
For quite a while now I have been looking for the "perfect" second car . It should have the following characteristics :
1] Excellent gas mileage
2] Reasonably good performance ... should have no problems operating at highway speeds
3] Low purchase price
4] I'm willing to sacrifice room and carrying capacity [but it should be able to carry 2 passengers comfortably . ] .
5] Safety
Of course I looked at electric cars but rejected them for their currently expensive purchase price . In addition many have a range problem which may be lessened with future technology . Also , the cold weather performance could be a problem for some of them .
Next I started looking at 3 wheeled vehicles .
This idea is NOT NEW . A mathematician [ Buckminster Fuller ] came out with such a design [The Dymaxion car] in 1933 ! He also manufactured and sold some of them :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car
The car suffered some early accident problems . The cars flipped over partly due to its unintuitive steering system , steering from the lone rear wheel . But I suspect its real problem was this :
The car was twice as long as a conventional automobile, at 20 feet (6.1 m) long.[3]
In other words it was subject to instability due to rapid lane changes especially during crosswinds .
So my newer investigations take that design instability into account .
That is why I also rejected this currently available Chinese designed & manufactured car , the Wildfire :
Is it a car? A motorcycle? Who cares - it gets 72 mpg!
Notice that the single wheel is in the front of this car . That makes for an especially unstable design .
See the warning about the tipping danger at 0:38 .
So I next looked at a European designed car which solves the tipping danger by tilting the car like a motorcycle does in turns . Meet the Carver :
http://www.carver-worldwide.biz/CarverWelcomeUK/index.html
It uses a steering torque actuator to allow this "carving" action to take place . See it perform here :
Pretty nifty design ! The only problem is the price . As your NT intrepid reporter I looked into this for you .
I was recently quoted a price of 35,995 Euros . That converts to about $ 49,313 . UGH ! NEXT !
There are some other European designs which are less safe so I rejected them too .
And I'm going to skip over designs that are just not going to be manufactured .
Finally I settled on a US designed machine . Instead of using a complex design like the Carver it puts the 2 coaxial wheels up front while the lone wheel is in the rear . It uses front wheel drive like most US cars already have . As a result this is the simplest design I could find . It has steering stability based on merely having a wide distance between these 2 front wheels . The KISS rule is one I will gravitate towards and that is what it uses . Meet the Elio :
Elio trike : [84 mpg] $6800
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmiTyfwBXnM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLPSrjXKrD6ISXwqhp4tkCxVntf6DB7RHL&rel=0
For those of you with further interest here are some writeups :
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/08/start-up-automaker-elio-builds-small-cheap-two-seater-car.html
The latest article I've seen says it will be on the market in 2015 . They have pushed back the potential delivery date from 12/14 to the first quarter of 2015 .
http://news.yahoo.com/three-wheel-6-800-car-gears-2015-us-193306020.html
Any questions ?
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That's nice ... a used Yaris for $12,000 . The Elio is only $6800 brand new . Its gas mileage isn't "great" [what does that mean ?] It is stupendous : 84 mpg ... can you equal that ?
Yes , I am MADLY obsessed with gas mileage ! Buahahahaha !
Geez , don't take it personally . Like I said I'm obsessed . Thanks for your suggestion . The Yaris sounds quite practical ...
LOL... Well, I'm impressed with the Elio. Thanks for exposing it! (I know - "great" is kind of meaningless...but 'great' is better than nothing sometimes!
)
Putting all these factors together makes the Elio the ideal selection . Frankly I was quite attracted to the Carver from an engineering design standpoint . It was really neat how it achieves great stability during turns . But at more than 49 K$ there is no way I'm going to buy it ... Thanks for stopping in .
Does this mean you would rule out the Carver ? Don't you think that is an innovative approach ? [It is no longer an experiment . It is available now .] How about if gasoline went to $8/ gal ? BTW , how is the Yaris on acceleration ?
Good criticism . It is a possibility ... one worth investigating . But considering that motorcycles do just fine around semis I have my doubts . Does your Yaris have a standard transmission ?
Great article the research speaks for itself. I see another potential drawback with the "Carver" it will be much more expensive as far as repair is concerned and probably high in maintenance costs. Do you remember the early "Honda ATC" fiasco. They were a three wheeled ATV that was very unstable caused by the single front wheel design. There is a learning curve that one needs to go through to operate a three wheeled single front wheel designed vehicle in a safe manner. They tend to flip over at very slow speeds and the problem worsens as the speed increases. The Elio is looking really great but my eye goes to the Lit Motors C1.
To drafty for me, I'm getting older you know.
Mike ,
According to the following video the Elio maxes out at 107 . If that's not fast enough I suggest taking out your gun if someone tries to tailgate you , because that fits the technical definition of assault without battery .
Thanks for the info . Can you put numbers to the mpg's , hwy & city ?
When I was a lot younger I drove a moped for about 3 years . I sold it at that point for the same price I paid for it .
That means I had free transportation [paying only for fuel ] . But you couldn't pay me to go on a moped on the open road these days . Drivers have gotten a lot nastier in the intervening years .
Hyundai Elantra, hands down.
Good performance, great interior, the best standard equipement and most room in it's class, and 40mpgs.
We're on our third and love 'em!
:~)
Thanks for your knowledgeable reply Larry .
Good info about the Honda ATC and cars with that config .
I expect you are right about the Carver's maintenance costs . Just imagine trying to get it home after the tilting mechanism fails on the road ... big problem . From what I've been reading the company went bankrupt after it severely overcharged on the purchase price . How much do they want you to pay for the "coolness" factor ?
To me it is just not worth more than $ 40 K .
That's what happens when someone with just an engineering background tries to go into business . They lose focus on the consumer .
As to the Lit motors idea , it is an interesting concept .
But I prefer the simplest approach to a problem . If the problem is stability , side-to-side wheels is a lot simpler than gyroscopic stability . What happens if you have a power glitch ? In any case this vehicle is still in the prototype stage . When they get ready to manufacture it I might consider it . And being electric it still has the problems of charge time , range limitations & high battery replacement costs . One day these problems will be dealt with but not today ...
And one more thing ... the Lit vehicle can only transport one person . There is no back seat that I can see .
Mike ,
The Elio is being manufactured in the US . $23 K for a second car ? Are you kiddin' me ?! The Elio will go for $6800 .That's a second car ...
Why ? Also what kind of mpgs does the Scion get ? How about acceleration ?
Larry H ,
Hyundai makes a good solid car . Thanks for the suggestion ...40mpgs is for highway miles ?
Here is a picture of the 1933 Dymaxion .
Notice it is both very long and very tall ... plenty of room inside BUT also plenty of side surface area to catch crosswinds . Combine those with the narrow wheel base and you've got a recipe for an unstable ride . Leave it to a mathematician who hasn't done his engineering ...
Also here is a video about some really bad advertising being done to sell cars :
...
I guess offensive advertising is considered the better bet for big manufacturers . No wonder people like me are seeking alternatives ...
And here is another trike with a similar design to the Elio :
...
No back seat but there are 2 front seats . No windshield ... don't drive in the rain . You have to take off the steering wheel to enter . It gets about 35 mpg . The price tag ... a mere 62 K $ . No thanks !
If ever there was a demo vehicle to explain the concept behind the Elio [tandem seating means good gas mileage]this is it . The Elio gets more than 2X the gas mileage ... simple as that .
I guess my quest for awesome gas mileage is a path I walk alone ...
Yeah pretty much :
I don't want to be squashed like a bug on the open road . Do you ?
Also read this comment , especially the last 2 paragraphs :
All cars break down . Are you saying they are worse than "unsmart" cars ? BTW what are you referring to when you say "smart car" ? Do you mean the smart-for-two ?
I am not aware of any major manufacturers of 3 wheeled vehicles . Which ones are you referring to ?
You don't like dodge products ... or eco cars ? Please clarify .
That is the point ... well one of several . My pursuit for extraordinary gas mileage is partly motivated by stinginess and partly by patriotism ... No , I'm not kidding .
The unfavorable balance of trade is what eventually screws up the US economy . NOT spending on imported petroleum would go a long way towards rebalancing that trade .
That's why I would favor a trike that gets 84 mpg over a more conventional car that gets half of that or less . The principle by which it does that is just basic physics ... cut down on the amount of air you displace as you drive to improve mileage ratings ... simple !
We agree :
Since you are not answering my question I can only guess you mean the smart-for-two . I have little interest in that vehicle . And I noticed you did not bother to elaborate about 3 wheeled vehicles . So ... I'm guessing that there are no actual manufacturers for them ... just custom built machines . Those are also of no interest to me .
That's entirely possible . But IMO you are ignoring an important market segment : People who want to get from point A to point B with the least expense and upfront capital . The fact that you are not discussing the issue of gas mileage is a telling avoidance for me .
It's classified as a motorcycle . I expect that any competent motorcycle mechanic would be able to handle them .
Also , there is nothing exotic about this car . Probably any general car mechanic would be able to deal with it .
However , I will definitely make a point of inquiring about that before purchase .
The manufacturer would be the only supplier at this point . I expect there would be some kind of warranty which would cover the vehicle for a set time & distance . Buying brand new has that advantage . As consumer acceptance becomes more prevalent I'm sure there will be internet outlets available as well .
What happens when a big car rear ends any small car including the ones you recommended ? If you want the details about safety I suggest you watch the video embedded in the article .
No helmet . In my state I'm fairly sure the helmet laws have been repealed ... And your slanderous description is not making your case for you ... You have no idea what the quality might or might not be ...
I see you added some more to the end of your comment . It's fine to have an opinion but you have made no effort to acquaint yourself with the details . The Elio is expected to have a 5 star safety rating . It has a steel roll/containment cage as well as side air bags and crush zones . If you had a real interest in informing yourself you would have watched the video ...
That is wrong . The inventor explained himself quite well about the physics in a video I have linked to several times . It is the small front facing surface area ... also the streamlining . If you have no interest in absorbing what the inventor has to say then there is no point in further discussion on that issue . You are merely arguing from a position of ignorance . Learn something before you spout off again .
Reducing front surface area is not high tech . It is simple physics .
I expect it is the fact that they have not actually produced any finished product yet . It is an introductory offer .
Also if they are not able to produce it then there is the risk of losing your investment . They already have quite a few who are willing to take that risk ...
And there is also the low mfg cost due to the location , an abandoned factory in Louisana ... and the low labor costs there .
Now you're just being silly . A golf cart is slow and has side-to-side seating . It is also not enclosed against the weather .
Thanks for your info . Hybrids are pricey even used . And I'm not sure about battery replacement costs ...
Good to know about battery warranties in Toyotas . The Prius is a very popular car .
Petey, I've been following the comments. A lot of good information from the comments. In a quest for gas milage, cost etc. This is my suggestion. Please note that I have one of each and am more than satisfied.
As you can see they come in two sizes. The SUV size uses more hay, apples, oaks, carrots, but has unlimited power. It's a real eye catcher around town.
The mini suv model uses a lot less in the fuel department but is a real chick magnet.
OK , good to know . How many gears do these have ? I could see the chick appeal of the small model ...
They don't have a lot of gears. Forward, walk, trot, gallop, all out run. Reverse is optional.
The mini suv does attract the females. Gotta love that.
Thanks for the link . That's an interesting profile shape . Maybe I can find a lease take-over arrangement for the next year or so . That might run about $1800 .
Do you know how much it costs for a brand new Kawasaki cycle ? It's around $4 K . The CanAm is a unique product and is a lot more powerful than the Elio so I'm not surprised that you would have to pay a premium to buy one . In any case that is an unfair comparison .
It could take a brain surgeon if it did flip over . But if a rocket scientist [or at least a good automotive engineer] did his work properly it would prevent such flipping from happening . There are many factors involved in such stability . The thing NOT to do is what was done with the Dymaxion [see explanation & photo below] .
This vehicle is very unlike the Dymaxion for several reasons .
Some of the factors which assist turning stability :
Height of the CG [center of gravity] . Length of the main axle [between the 2 wheels ]
Lengthwise position of the weight distribution
Side facing area [can cause problems during a crosswind ] & likewise the height of that side area .
In this case the Elio has a low CG compared to its axle length . That is a plus . The main weight is the engine which is located directly between the 2 front wheels . That is another plus . It is not tall or long like the Dymaxion ... another plus . As to slalom maneuvers , here ya go : [see 1:23]
...
No . The VW is 2X as wide as the Elio . It would present at least 2X the front surface area . Narrow the body ? How ? Might as well just make an entirely different car . THAT is an Elio ...
I wanted a trike myself Pete and being a self indulging American I got just what I wanted in fact I have two of the little gems. Gas mileage sucks, but the attraction they have on the ladies is measurable. Power plant is a Chevy 350CID running an automatic transmission with full reverse.
Good choice jennilee ... or maybe just a hand-me-down ?
Interesting footnote : when they were developing the Elio they used the 3 cylinder Geo Metro motor in it . Now it has its own specially designed motor also 3 cylinder ...
That is the kind of intelligent choices people can make without resorting to super high tech ...
Thanks for the specs Larry C. According to the handy-dandy converter website :
350in = 5735.5cm
That's a 5.7 liter engine ! The Elio has only 0.9 liters ... No wonder your machines get such lousy gas mileage !
Yeah but they still have that magnetic attraction for the ladies. And lets face it I don't go to Sturgis for the hell of it.
While I was stationed in Germany during my military days I rode one on these all over Europe.
And they were diesel and mileage was outa this world just wish the fuel tank held more than a liter at a time.
And earth friendly look it runs on wood and is already fueled for the first run.
I might make U an offer . How far is it to the nearest scrap yard ?
Top Gear - BAC Mono sub ita from Francesco Miotto on Vimeo .
3 X ? That's a lot . Are you referring to acceleration ?
It's hard to argue with the sales stats :
Toyota Prius passes 3 million in global sales
Toyota's Prius hybrid passed another milestone in June, securing its place at the top of the hybrid vehicle market.
What are you disagreeing with ... exactly ?
Looks like fun . Where were you planning on driving that ... on the race track ?!
It's street legal, Petey. It would look good on ya.
100 K British lbs in US $ is ... ?
$164,730.00
$164,230.07
I went to two different calculators and got these numbers. I'd rather have a nice Mustang GT.
If you had one would you be able to afford the fuel ... not to be a downer
These days electric bikes are all the rage . There is much better conversion efficiency from e-power to motion than from fuel to motion ... but the batteries are heavy and cost many $$$$ .
If your going for a car with longevity a used car then the ford 500 has lived half of its life span or more. My Chrysler Van is at 171,000. been pronounced dead twice. Transmission number three in it now. Needs another brake job.
Buy a used Toyota. Consider a Honda NSX or 1998 or 1999 S2000. Top end 200 mph. 26 mpg highway. Damned radios are faster speed of light thoseblasted radios are.