My Conspiracy 'Hypothesis' about the New Vine
I've tried to stay 'above the fray', so to speak, about the whole mess on the Vine. Haven't been over there mourning the loss, haven't been doing (much) posting here about the whole mess. Yesterday I had a sudden insight that I thought I would share with you all and see what you think.
I've seen a lot of people advancing some peculiar conspiracy theories about the change being the result of a conservative plot to disable a strong liberal presence on the Web. I can see how someone could leap to that conclusion but I really thing it's a little bit much. I think it's really simple, it's about money.
Separating what we know from what we speculate, feel, surmise or assume. We KNOW that the number of page loads, clicks and therefore ad views has increased. That much we know. We KNOW a LOT of us lost what money we had accrued, (I've never, in my time on the Vine talked about that aspect as it's not that important to me. However, I lost over 220 dollars because of the adsense debacle.) Page/ad views/clicks, whatever you want to call them equal money. SOMEONE got the money they took from us when they changed to adsense.
Now, to defend my hypothesis I'll start by pointing out that doing away with General Discussion and forcing discussion into several different groups, (I REFUSE to say Nations, that's just a public relations ploy, like calling General Discussion the Trough) did one thing that is not disputable, it vastly increased the number of different page loads that people have to do to see the discussions on various subjects. That is something that I've heard everyone complaining about here and on the Vine. More page loads=more ad views.
On that same note, (doing away with GD), I'll point out the UTTER indifference displayed by management about the voluminous and vociferous protests that came from 80-90% of the beta users, including me. If your goal is purely to increase page views, what do you care what the sheeple think?
Why do away with the friends list/comment tracker? I put those together because they are 2 sides of the same coin and are inseparable. Again, despite voluminous and vociferous complaints from practically every one, management decided to do away with this much loved and MUCH USED feature. It was too convenient a short cut. It allowed people to go straight to what interested them without a bunch of intervening clicks. Now people have to make at least 6 or 7 clicks to do what once could be done with 2 clicks. Although that's not exactly correct, the sad fact is that people can't do some things that were once absurdly easy no matter how many clicks!
Now, let's talk about that absurd and space wasting mess they call a 'user interface'. You know, the look and feel thing. It's ridiculously inefficient, but it does mean that ad's have more of the visual space on each page. That's kind of my take on it because I think it's really ugly.
Anyway, what do you all think? There are literally hundreds of Viners, and former Viners here. Even though I've ceased posting, voting, or, as of today when I changed my homepage, even looking at the Vine, I still have almost 7 years invested there. I still feel like we got screwed badly. I still have friends trying to slog through that mess over there. And, if my hypothesis is correct, I refuse to add one page view to the total over there. Because deliberately wreaking one of the best news aggregating/discussion sites on the Web for a few lousy ad views just makes me sick.
Brock (Wheel) Barrow
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I frankly feel like this discussion should be on the Vine, but I'm through posting there and there are hundreds of vine refugees and 'dual citizens' here. Can anyone think of anything I've missed?
I think I saw that comment. It actually made me laugh it was so nonsensical. It looks like it was designed in the '8 bit era' to me.
I'm kind of grateful that things exploded for me the way they did, long before the "New" Newsive went into effect, hastening my departure from the site.
I see so many long-time members from there, that just seem lost since the change. Looking at some comments I've seen about it, it's almost like some people feel betrayed by the changes, and I can't say I blame them after seeing what a mess the site has become.
You mentioned you were part of the beta-testers. In all honesty, I thought it was the beta-testers that "approved" this monstrosity when it went live. Is that not the case?
Not at all. The beta was blasted by the HUGE majority of testers...but no one seemed able to understand what we were saying. It was like we were speaking Urdu or it was Opposite Day or something.
Wow. Not sure why they used beta-testers at all, if they were just planning on ignoring you guys.
Sounds like they were already locked down on what they wanted to do and just made a big deal with a bunch of articles with titles like: "Beta Testers Needed!" to give a false sense that they really were interested in "community involvement".
At any rate...sorry you and others went through this. NT is a good place, managed by good people who truly have the best interest of the community in mind, IMO.
Newsvine was a great idea when it was in it's fledling stages. Even when I first showed up in 2007. But it went rapidly downhill from there. It's a shame what money will do to a company.
Well, what goes around comes around. They trusted Tyler to make NV into something it wasn't and he's succeeded. LOL!
NV is a debacle now. I can't find my comments, my friends comments...and the nation stuff. I never wanted to be a part of the UN. I can't even stand to go there anymore, but sometimes I do, but like you, I will not give them the satisfaction of having many, if any, page views from me.
here's a look at how well they are doing:
And some recent scathing reviews (chuckling).
Was one of them you, wheel? LMBO
I agree...
Wheel,
I was a beta tester. I said from the get go it stunk, but I felt weird saying anything. First of all, I was shocked that they made me a beta tester (for obvious reasons), so I also feltawkwardbeing to negative about it. But to to your assumptions....
1. The Nations. A bunch of like minded individuals discussing topics that they all agree on. Benefit, no moderation. Also, after everyone agrees, no discussion. How long can anyone enjoy an eco-chamber?
2. Yes, it is all about ad revenue. Now John is right, that they have a ranking of about 4000. That is down a lot from 2 years ago. But what he is wrong about is that it means it's a little site. It isn't. In internet terms, it is a huge site. But from where they were, they took a big ad hit. Now let me educate you all on ads. There are a few factors on how ad revenue from ads work.
First there is clicks. If you click on an ad, they get money. But then there are page views. The more page views for each ad the more money they are paid. Their new platform allows for multiple ads to be seen on each page, which means that on any given page view you could be viewing 5-6 ads, all of which are counted. Then there is click through. That means they track your cookies to see that even if you didn't click on the ad, you still visited the site. All and all, the platform is designed formaximumad revenue. BTW, all those ads are the reason for the slow loading time.
You may ask, how do I know. Look around. I am running ads.
Oh there we agree.
To be honest I use AD Block Plus. I don't see ads. Way back, Calvin fussed at me about using ABP (or at least about talking about it on the Vine) and I gave it an honest try with out it...until I started getting ads that talked and played music. That was the straw that broke this camel's back.
Advertisers know when you use adblock. They also know the size of your screen and even the resolution. That means they know how many (or none)ads you are viewing at any one page view. Calvin argued with you about page blocking, because then they don't get paid for your pageviews.
I don't think it's tyler. He's just an employee. Of course, as an employee, he had the duty to boost the new changes whatever his personal opinion may have been. The programmers and the business office weenies are at the root of this mess. (I am so proud of myself that I haven't called it an 'abomi'nation yet.)
I've pretty much dropped out of nv...The final straw for me was when they kept my $400.00 with that adsense nonsense...
Somebody got the money and it sure as hell wasn't me..
As Mike said about, ''follow the money''..
Good post Wheel. BTW, how is Mary Jane doing?
Wheel, I've always said it was about the money. From the get go - even in my postings on the Vine. I am a programmer and I know a top-down - profit driven mess when I see it. What they did to Newsvine tops the list, and I'm not the only programmer who has said that. When the new Vine first came on line, I was involved in one discussion where other programmers were saying what I just did (and more).
In all seriousness, I've programmed for 20 years - and the mess at Newsvine is the WORST I've seen ... it really is. It makes me sad and furious all at the same time.
That's pretty much my take on it.
When Evergreen (Newsvine 2.0) launched in 2007, it was innovative and a huge improvement over the type of linear comment sections that were the norm at the time, but it was getting a little dated in the age of social networking. There really was a legitimate need to redesign the site to bring it up to current web standards, both to increase ad revenue and in terms of making the site more Google- and mobile computing-friendly.
At the end of the day, traffic and ad impressions are driven by users of the site. Regardless of how many bells and whistles are added, people simply won't use a site that's poorly designed, especially when there are so many other options available. Social plugins from Facebook and Twitter, and networked commenting platforms like Disqus makes it possible to comment on multiple sites while still providing the ability to track comments.
The redesign is an attempt to keep Newsvine relevant in a Facebook and Twitter world, but given the poor design, IMO it is a swing and a miss.
I totally agree John, but it's a theory that is currently popular with a subset of the dissatisfied on the vine.
I did give it an honest try. But I refuse to put up with ads that talk, play music or in general interfere with my user experience. I also was REALLY put off by the anti-smoking ads with the people with holes in their throats. Kind of grossed me out and I don't even smoke.
Exactly right Kavika. They got me for over 220$ and I know I'm not the only one that is kind of pissed about that.
Maryjane is doing fine. She's begging her mom (Alicia) for treats right now.
The Beta group was merely testing functionality, and there's no doubt they were tracking the number of 'new' pages you had to open to get to your normal 'hang outs' or groups on the old vine.
I'm sure your ideas received consideration, but when changes like this are made...I'm sure the developers ranted about additional time and costs to keep an 'old' aspect like the friends list in something so new and shiny. Kinda like putting your old car seats in a brand new car.
I also think the 'Nations' concept allows for specific marketing to certain groups...which means additional income. We weren't forced to join groups...and I didn't belong to any. Now it's up to 15 groups for you and no friends.
sidebar* It cracked me up to read the conservative conspiracy! Thanks for the Friday afternoon chuckle!
Which supports the whole 'nothing matters but the money hypothesis.
Yeah, when I first saw it I actually chuckled a bit...till I realized the guy was serious.
Yes - I saw American Idle's article. And yes they did take my earnings (not that it was all that much). It's just one more sign that money is driving every decision over there.
I deleted all my articles and my account, but in one article I mentioned that the Vine used to have a purpose (citizen journalism, social news site). But now the purpose is money and citizen journalism, social news site is the front.
There is a difference. I own my own business and build databases for a living. Now profit is imiportant - or I wouldn't be able to support myself and my family. But ... the difference for me is that building good databases, maintaining good client relationships drives profits. Profits don't drive my client relationships. The difference is sometimes subtle, and sometimes it's "in your face". The new Newsvine is an example of "in your face" profit driven objectives.
Perrie, thanks for explanation. And, I've been meaning to speak to you about those ads..
What bothers me about NV now is everything. Tyler, Sally, Luke--their responses to suggestions or questions sent me NT.
I always donated all my money so had just donated and only had maybe $45.00 in the till. I was so discusted when I left I just wanted out and leave the mess behind. Had a ton of friends and hope they all come here. But you may have hit on a good part of it but still think they wanted the independent thinkers gone. Doesn't match their Corporate image.
Yeah, one of those bad reviews was mine.
I am not at all happy with the changes. I was a Beta Tester and they could have cared less what any of us said about anything. I finally got an answer, in January, to a bug report that I had sent in September. As far as I'm concerned, the site is unusable, even though I know how to use it, I could care less.
There is nothing there that interests me any more, except for the few friends I have left over there. I, too, feel angry and abandoned. But, the more I stay here, the more I'm getting over it.
It's just a website, and frankly, not worth the angst. I have looked at my activity tracker every day-- and there is absolutely nothing I want to comment on or care about. So, I clear the activity tracker and go on...
I haven't deleted my account yet, but very likely will on April 1.
Wheel, I think you're right-- it's all about the money.
I think that was more under the heading of 'collateral damage.'
This is very true Rose. A site is only as good as it's members and the members are only as happy as the relationship you make with them. Somewhere along the way, NV forgot that. For me, it was when Calvin left. He was the heart of NV. I think that Tyler is a good guy, but this is his job and he has to do what he is told.
You have to look atmanagementand wonder.
I posted somethoughts on this very thing, now admittedly i was'nt on NV for long and i did'nt have alot of hits or money for that matter but the whole site was made into a money making site. It's a profit driven site to me, like that means anything lol, but the powers that were/are in charge did'nt like the fact that they werenot making money. Easier to work, yeah right! It took me a long time to figure out the old NV as it was.
Subtle changes? Whatever, porn sites are easier to navigate than the "new and improved" NV. So when it all comes down to it, it was and is about the money!
...so is gazpacho....
The sale to MSNBC signaled a sea change in the whole dynamic of the Vine.
I think you nailed it. I can't find fault with anything you said. And today is the first of what will be countless days that I have NOT opened the vine. My account is deleted, and I'm outta there. What they did is unforgivable. It is symptomatic of a deeper societal ill that is going to end up hurting everyone, rich AND poor, before this same society makes an effort to fix it. Until then, we may as well get used to it.
R.I.P. Newsvine.
The sale to MSNBC.com certainly changed things. But more recently, a lot of this is being driven by the Microsoft/MSNBC split. The remaining MSNBC.com properties are being rolled up under the NBC.com umbrella, which was acquired by Comcast.
The new owners have a different philosophy, and new management has been installed to oversee all of their tech holdings.
Microsoft and NBC Call It Quits, for Real: Heres the MSNBC.com Divorce Filing
Analysts: MSNBC.com Deal Helps NBCUniversal With Branding, Stock Valuation
I was surprised by the beta invite as well. They sent them to Amac, you, and I the same week. I cant remember if anybody else here received them at that time though. Possibly Larrrs and Bruce.
I think it was their way of trying to entice us back there? Dunno.
Great article Wheel and I think you've got it just right. It's about the money, pure and simple.
Well.......it appears that most of the NV users are over 65. That's why they want to change it.
Someday the kids will realize that less clicks = more use. Right now the young people don't know the difference and like to mess around with the magic feeling of using a button. My new phone is the same way. It's nice to touch. It does cool things. But, it takes more effort than the old cell phone for some typical tasks.
Here's an analogy. It's easier to use a knob/potentiometer for some things. turning up the volume in your car and turning on a microwave. But the button seems more modern. Same thing with knob gear shifting in a car. Having a gear shift is easier on your hand - even a button is (if anyone remembers cars with push button gear shifts) but the knob is "new" so it's a big deal.
The internet has not quite caught on to this yet and young people want to experiment.
When it comes to page views....I don't see any ads in the new NV. People have ad blockers. I always saw the ads that were visible in between the comments on the old NV. So they are losing there too.
I think you're right, too-- increase ad revenue and get rid of all us old folks. Appeal to a younger demographic.
Idiots don't realize that it's us old farts that have all the money to buy the things on those ads...
Do you think young people will be attracted to that clunky interface? I think young people will be MORE knowledgeable about esthetics and usability and I don't think the new UI will do the job.
Yeah...older folks have money, but don't buy as much on line from ads. Older people usually know what they want and just look it up to buy it.
I want my money from Newsvine. I tried signing up for that Adsense thing. It would not go through. I don't know if they fixed it yet - but I'd be perfectly willing to sign up for a class action. I save my page with my earnings JIC.
LOL, typical of a doxie.
You just reminded me... I HATE it when I open a site and am assaulted by loud music/talk/sound-effects/you-name-it, all at FULL volume! As fast as the thing opens, I close it. Unsightly pictures don't bother me, but I want to be able to CHOOSE what I hear, and when I will hear it. Also, nine times out of then if the video runs a commercial, and I have no way to turn off the volume, I'll close it and not stick around to see what I may have missed.
Well it's not so much that younger people will be attracted to it, as the perception by young NV admins that it will.
It looks a lot like a smart phone messaging except for the bubbles. The colors and font are reminiscent of such.
Younger people don't have the focus or attention span either. They want to bounce around without much follow up. That only lasts so long though. Once anyone gets past grenade trolling, there's not much beyond.
I agree with both of you! The whole thing is a mess-- trying to appeal to a younger audience is not going to work with this interface.
I never click on an ad. And NOTHING made me madder than BP advertising on my articles about the oil spill... Oh well, I don't have to worry about that any more...
NV is clunky. I've been using my tracker, but it's still hard to know where your comments are when people post to multiple nations.
The font is too big, even for my old eyes. Young people like smaller fonts so if they thought they could hang on to older users by making a larger font - Fail!
The only people that know that less clicks = more use are programmers that never take their hands off the key board. Unfortunately, that's not how most people young or old use the computer. There are shortcuts on the new NV. I've not even been able to get them to work. Another - Fail.
That was my complaint from day one-- one comment filled the screen of my computer-- when it first started, they had a huge header and huge footer, and I had exactly 2" for a comment. I use a laptop. They fixed that, but not much else.
The whole thing is awful.
Yeah. It's pretty bad. Someone posted an article about a social site autopsy by MIT regarding Friendster (a precursor to My Space or Facebook)
...
Basically they changed Friendster and made it very unfriendly. As people dropped off, their friends dropped off and so on until nothing was left.
I don't know if that will happen to NV. It's not really a social site and is less social than it was. It will probably follow a different failure distribution.
How right you are. The thing is, from my own perspective, when the new NV was rolled out ... I could just see all the board meetings that went into designing it. I've been in my share of them. (sigh)
I've been in business for over 20 years now and long ago reached a point where I will no longer accept a project if I can't work directly with the end-user (from the get go).
But... when I was first starting out and needed the work, I allowed myself to be sucked into projects where the upper management wanted complete control (for reasons directly related to money, profit, bonuses, etc...) Those are the projects I regret, because, in the end the users were frustrated and I was frustrated as the programmer.
So... I can appreciate Tyler's position. You know the really sad thing .. and I do mean sad ... is that the new design is pushing users out. The traffic is down, profits will go down as a result, and Tyler may end up losing his job. I hope he's looking for another, if I were him I wouldn't wait around.
hahaha, Mike and Wheel.
I had been on the vine since Dec. of 08. I didget used to it in a b=hurry and had no problems navicatinf the thing. Now witht his, they can wipe the whole thing off the net and i wouldn't miss it a bit.
Dearest bitey-- every time I check that tracker, it shows that you have joined Reigning Critters, but your page is gone. What's up with that glitch?
Is the site losing membership? No one seems to be admitting it.
Ha ha ha. I have seen that, too, Wheel, and it is absurd in the extreme.
I agree with you about the tracker on Classic Nv. That tracker is owned my Nv and it has been the envy of nearly every social site on the web. And they dumped it. Ummmmm....makes no sense.
Yeah, they had a successful and old product. But NBC bought them out and MSN left the building. I figure NBC wanted something flashy and "modern looking" to go well with their state of the art and flashy home page. Since NBC was calling the shots the folks at Nv had little or no choice but to get that ball rolling as quickly as possible. I really don't think it is any more complicated than that.
I continue to muddle through over there, and I do mean muddle. In Classic Nv, I would log in and there would be 200 or more items on my tracker. Now there might be 20 and my articles or seeds get only a few hits where I would get many interesting comments before the switch. Right now Nv is dead on the vine, as near as I can tell. Maybe it will come back to life once folks figure it out. I really don't know and wouldn't be willing to take any bets on what the future on Nv might be.
With 6 pages of comments I haven't seen any that contradict my basic premise. Admittedly, most of them are just re-hashes of the problems we've all noticed but even they support the notion that it's ALL about money with ZERO consideration of the end users.
That's very sad.
Dowser -
Sorry - the LMAO isn't for you, it's the reality itself. How many folks have joined NT and left NV? And NT is just one little corner of cyberspace picking up former viners.
You're right no-one at NV is admitting it ... but that doesn't make it less real.
Anyway - when I wrote that new design was pushing users out, I wasn't thinking so much of their membership going down (although obviously it is). What I was thinking of was simple traffic/clicks ... that's what will drive ad profits.
I've not bothered (at all) to research their traffic stats and I won't. But... I have been casually watching comment counts on articles and original articles vs. seeds. Both of those things are way down. The top articles on the vine are not getting the comment counts they used to, not by a long shot. That one thing alone would really worry me, if I were sitting in Tyler's position.
Exactly. You know what I noticed when they rolled out the new version? Some of the harshest criticism was coming from those of us in the industry? It was coming from us - because we know a bad design when we see one, we know a bad roll-out when we see one, we know profit driven design when we see it.
If that mess had been an ordinary roll-out with ordinary problems and hick-ups, those of us in the industry would have recognized it, and counseled folks to be patient (because we've been on the receiving end of user frustration). But as a whole, our response was pretty harsh and critical.
Had I been in the NV decision maker's shoes (and I don't mean Tyler here - he's being pushed from management) I really would have asked myself why the members who are also in the business of writing and implementing new programs were coming down so hard on the new product.
I think you're edging into conspiracy theory space there maybe. If they wanted to close it, they would just close it. They own it, they can do what they like. And they did, in spite of sharp criticism from...well...practically everyone except for a small cadre of people who seem almost Stepford-like in their cheerleading for the new mess.
Yeah, I thought I made it plain that the whole idea of a right wing conspiracy against the vine was cloud cuckoo land stuff, however there are people on the Vine right now who take that notion seriously.
I don't think management was bored though, I think they're greedy, dumb and short sighted.
While it may have been about a revenue stream, in reality, capital on a website is its membership and to thwart that is ultimately fiscal suicide.
I think the Vine transformation is a product of brainstorming and someone's ego trip, possibly a joint ego trip and/or employees trying to justify their existence. Rather than accept criticism and abandon the project, instead, an ego driven agenda stood, and, did so and continues to do so, to the detriment of the site, its administration and its members.
Attitude reflects management and arrogant management never seems to get that concept.
Like I said, there are a lot of differing opinions on WHY they did it, but we KNOW the end result was vastly increased page loads and ad views.
Screaming for Vengeance :
In "List View", or "Compact View", with the exception of an ad, the eastern third of my screen is empty...
A lot of things in Classic were broken. Their solution was to sweep it all under the rug, and add more broken things on top of it.
I think they spend too much time across the street in Myrtle Edwards Park . Or in their break room . Newsvine does not provide a drug and alcohol free work environment.
Are the expendable members of the team. It appears to me, that right after they hired Sally, the accountants discovered that they can't afford two moderators. They couldn't fire her, because then they'd have to pay unemployment insurance. So, right after her training period was up, they switched her to part-time. I can also point to when, a few months later, Tyler was put on part-time, too. Then, they went to rotating "on-call" status. They show up late (when they show up at all), they take long lunch breaks, and they leave early.
The "New" Newsvine hasn't done anything yet to improve their traffic rank.
That's my impression too. I've had the impression for some time that they were standing with one foot out the door and the other on a banana peel.
I find it hard to believe, with all the adverts on Nv, that they can not afford to have Sally and Tyler on full time. The average teacher's salary in Washington is $52,000 a year and that includes benefits (which nearly double the cost per person). Nv can't afford that? I scoff.
Any one who doesn't agree with you is naive or delusional? Thanks for the heads up, Screaming.
People on social networking sites don't click ads. That kills Pay-per-click. The other pay program, CPM (Cost per mile -- pageviews) is abused by spammers with their macros, so the pay rate on that is very low, to compensate.
Adsense stopped taking subdomain applications from Newsvine because they didn't want to take over management of Newsvine's spammer problem. Newsvine is silent on coming up with an alternative.
OK, so given that, they may be very close to broke. With MSN no longer supporting them they may be in a jam.
I've always said, from the first of the beta, that I would be willing to pay to be able to continue to use the classic version. So, say you charge $5 per year to use the Classic interface-- that should generate enough income to keep them going.
This whole thing has been mismanaged from the get-go.
I'm not trying to be stupid, but this graph is confusing to me. The numbers on the left side are showing, to me, that traffic fell to 1200 the second quarter of 2012, but are now more steady around 3,000 to 4,000...
The way it is shown is sort of upside down, to me... but then, I don't know what the numbers on the left hand side represent. 1,000-4,000 whats? What is the unit of measurement? Overall ranking? Number of people using the site, per thousand? Anyone got an idea?
So the Vine was trying to farm out the spammer problem instead of handling it in house? I hadn't heard that but it's an interesting notion and it supports the whole 'totally money driven' idea.
I agree on the mismanaged thing!
Me, too. I was sick about it, but that's the way it is.
I think part of it was that they had already made up their minds and their current users just aren't wanted anymore. I think part of it is that they want a technical whistles and bells, and us old people aren't thought of as being technically minded.
When they told me that I had to use either Firefox or Chrome to use the site, I had a fit. To no avail.
Watch the children-- and look what they have wrought. They want younger users, and I don't think this is the way to go. But, that may be their aim, as well as increased revenue. I wonder why the site designer hates old people?
I never bothered to screenshot the time prior to the middle of 2010, because it was rising, and at the time it wasn't important, to me.
The numbers on the left represent where Newsvine ranks, according to Alexa, compared to all the other websites in the world.
Here's a different graph, where Google is #1, NBCNews is #214, and Newsvine has fallen to where it is now. You can see where NBCNews took off like a rocket when it replaced MSNBC. NBCNews is backed by advertising on their television network.
I would imagine it is a percentile ranking according to what percentage of the internet's page views that a site gets. Google gets ~6% of the world's page views. Newsvine gets... 0.001434%.
Thank you! I really didn't understand what the graph was saying!
NOW, thanks to your lovely explanation and additional graph-- I do! Thank you!
It's speculation on my part, since I don't really know why Google would accept subdomains for about the first 3 days that Newsvine offered the program, and then reject everyone else. Google isn't going to pay spammers, and trying to differentiate between spammers and genuine users would take up too much time. That's why Newsvine palmed it off on volunteers. Now, Newsvine has made it so that even the volunteers can't find spammers in the Greenhouse.
@ Dowser
That - right there is huge. You don't know how big - any 1st year web programmer understands what cross browser capability means and its importance.
The fact that they weren't taking this into consideration says they either didn't have the money to make sure their program ran in multiple browsers, or they didn't care.
I hate developing for the IE environment. IE literally is dragging web programming down. It's antiquated to say the least. But, IE is a widely used browser and to ignore it in development is fool-hardy.
By the time I even heard about this adsense debacle it was all over but the sad singing and the coffee drinking, as we say around here. But I have to say your speculation seems to be supported by everything else we know about this.
From a design perspective, I think a strong case can be made for simple incompetence.
A guiding principle for web design is keep it simple, stupid (KISS).
The new design is unnecessarily complex. Web users are generally impatient and want instant gratification, the new design requires countless extra clicks to get to the same content and pages are slow to load.
The higher the cognitive load and the less intuitive a website is to navigate, the more likely it is that users will simply leave and look for alternatives.
They would have done well to take advice from a company that does things pretty well. From Google's guiding principles :
Rose and infohack--
I don't think they cared. NOR did they want to admit that the site would not be compatible on IE9... No one knew this, and people have been changing over from IE9, just to be able to use the site.
My computer came with IE9. It will use Firefox, but just doesn't like Chrome.
This is not my field of expertise, and I certainly appreciate hearing your viewpoints! Thank you, both!
Good points, John.
Yeah John, I think most of them are sincere in trying to make the best of a bad situation. The problem is, no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd.
I think some (very few) of them actually think the change is an improvement.
I think some (too many) of them are, as you say, puffed up, self important asshats.
Well, it sure is a glitch, and I have no clue about it. Today is day #2 of my NOT checking the vine. I refuse to have anything more to do with it. I'm not at all surprised that there are BIG glitches... Jewel still gets the classic version - but at least I know my column is gone, and that, for now, is most important to me.
I hope you are feeling better... Augur Well is here on NT, now, and THAT is the best news I've seen in a LONG time!
YES, that is great news!
I haven't been there at all today... no need, I've just been clearing out my tracker. Planning on the great exodus April 1st!
Perfect analogy! Perfect!
That's such an old movie I didn't know if anyone would get it or not. I suppose we really are a bunch of golden oldies.
When the April 1st exodus occurs, we need to set up a party on NT so we can all celebrate! Less than a month away...
We've all aged like fine wine or the best Scotch Whiskey! We on NT are the best of the best, the creme de la creme!
And the "Stepford Wives" is a classic!
Auger is here now? Cool.
Just curious??? Is there an organized effort for a mass exodus on April 1st???
I've not seen anything on that. If there is an organized effort, I applaud it. An organized effort stands a better chance of getting the attention needed to change things.
Wheel, YES! I'm so glad!!!
Rose, dear, Time Lord has published an article somewhere about the great Vine-out or something... Please feel free to join us!
Peter,
It was just the 3 of us, but I think it was more about the manner in which we all left, than anything else. Members that left in a huff, but left our accounts open. More like unfinished business... testing the waters... so to speak.
Whose peter?
Dowser -
I'd join you - except that my NV account is already deleted, all my articles, my group - everything.
But ... it's nice to know there is an organized exodus as well. It stands a better chance of forcing change if they see a LOT of people exit at the same time.
(Although - I won't hold my breath).
Yes, Wheel, our dear Augur is here!!! Thank Heavens!
Rose, I surely understand... I don't think it will do anything, nor will they care, but we're still going to try to do it.
Take care, all of you!
I don't think I can bring myself to total deletion, but I haven't been there in months either.
HEY! I'm not old!!!
Hm. I have no idea how much I'd accrued at any given time. Couldn't have been much.
me either sweetie,but my hide is getting kind of weathered for some reason.
When were you three invited if you don't mind me asking? I was a beta tester too. One of the earlier ones. I hated the new "do" from the get-go, but tried my damnedest to sludge through and state what I found wrong (glitch wise).
And Comcast blows goats. (just my opinion of course)
When I received nearly no responses to my screams, I stopped going there altogether.
Original is a great flick. I am not old and I still know the classics very well thank you!
You are MUCH too polite, MsAubrey. I cannot say in polite company what I think of Comcast. I'm not even sure they've coined adequate words for it...
Don't hold back, tell what you really think!
I agree. I have no plans to delete my account but I have no plans to return to that mess either.
I'd tell you, but then someone would probably have to kill me...
I <3 our city cable.
I think eventually I'll go back even if it is to simply save the shit I've written.
Good for you! That's great!
This isn't an either/or proposition, by any means. Many of us have accounts at two places, and post at both places.
That doesn't make you a bad person. But, I hated the new format so much I deleted my account with no regrets whatsoever.
I, too, hate the new format. But, to each his own... Maybe I'm just too old a dog to learn new tricks.
I offered to pay money to stay on the Classic site, but no dice. I wish I could find it!
If I go back through the archives, I can find articles in classic, but to try to go anywhere else, it shunts me to the new format... UGH!
Thanks, dear friend!
Roy, I don't want you take this the wrong way, but you've made a grand total of 157 posts on the Vine since 2011. I've made nearly that many in a day. Maybe the new vine is geared for people who, like you, are more casual users rather than people who stayed logged in 5 or 6 hours a day.
Do you have anything to say about the hypothesis that the change was almost entirely top down-profit driven?
So you don't have a regular hangout on the web anywhere that you keep open whenever you're online?
I don't know why they did what they did, all I know is the new system sucks.
It is unusable, there was nothing wrong with what they had.
I got fed up and discontinued my account and no longer even go back.
I'm getting use to newstalkers, it's not bad here.
I wish they had spell correcting though.
At least they have those smily faces ....
I use Firefox, it has spell check. I've seen some other people with complaints about lacking spell check, not sure what else to tell you though except give Firefox a try.
A conservative plot? On Newsvine? Controlled by NBC News? A liberal bastion if ever there was one.
I'm pretty sure you're right-it's about money. That's the long and short of it. I've dropped my participation on NV down to basically nothing. American Republic had an awesome article we called 'Green Stars' but, fun is not on the table at NV anymore.....
No, it isn't.
Or as I was told-- There was no place on NV except for NEWS articles. They didn't need and/or want the kinds of articles I write/wrote.
Sigh! I'm much happier here anyway.
I did see one comment over there that shook me a bit-basically someone saying I can say whatever I want because you can't collapse my comments anymore. That was one of the best, by far, features of NV!
I don't care about the stories of gang collapsing. Up until a few months before the cut over, I rarely saw anyone collapsed that didn't deserve to be collapsed, then for the last few months, it became the Wild, Wild West, Collapsing things that went against the right or against the left, just because they didn't agree with the comment as opposed to a real reason form the CoH or the User Agreement.
It became a free-for-all-- I quit writing anything there in December. Even the most innocuous of articles weren't troll-free...
Glad it's over.
Besides, we're slowly getting all the best ones over here, anyway.
Yes. What Dowsey said. The best Viners have fled to NT, absolutely.
Love you, dearest bitey!
Back atcha, dearest Dowsey! Gee, aren't we the quintessential de-railers?! {{{{{Dowsey}}}}}
That's o.k., I could never be mad at either of you!
Thank heavens, dear Spikegary!
Glad to see you here. Not sure about your comment regarding spell check. I think it works much better than NV's. I use Safari.
I've been checking Alexa website analytic site for NV since I pretty much left. Anyway, I noticed a distinct change in the demographics today. The older people are leaving in droves, but the 18-24 group is WAY up. Picture below:
Ranking in the US has fallen from 2nd place to 5th place. India is still ranked as #1:
Just thought I'd pass this on!
I do that all the time. It makes me so mad, I could scream!
"I'm so irked by all of it that I would rather hit the back arrow and look for another article to read."
Which is precisely what I do. Then, if the article headline was something I really wanted to know more about, I Google it and find a text-only article... not a resource-eating video.
I will never, ever think of a computer as a video machine. I have TV for that. I don't sit at a computer to watch video. If I want to watch Video I sit on the sofa and watch TV, with my laptop handy for playing Solitaire.
Funny, but if these advertisers only knew how annoying they are with their mandatory video commercials, that they actually drive some people to other sites, maybe they'd think twice before thinking they can force people to watch their crap.
If you have "Firefox" try the "Adblocker Plus" and "NoScript" add-ons. It knocks that crap out before it reaches your screen.
I tried that once, but it created a whole host of other problems. Nope... if they are going to "force" a video on us, I will simply not utilize the site. The internet is huge... we simply don't have to stay where we're treated like captives.
The friends list is there, of course it's not active and it's about 4 clicks away, if you know the path, but it's not really of any use without the comment tracker and the ability to add new people.
It's a distinction without a difference to say it's still locatable and to say it's been rendered useless.
Yup, the page load times are still too long.
I thought so too, but I've never seen anyone else post one word about it.
I don't know if they're getting paid, I don't think all of them are, but I do completely agree about the superior, dismissive, condescending attitudes.
I would suggest checking their (tyler and Sally's) comments page to see if they're still commenting anywhere.
Sally last seeded an article on 3/8/13. tyler last seeded on the same date. I don't know how to check comments. But, I'd think they were still there.
Well there will be no shortage of people posting their view on the news.... Old Viners will be replaced with new viners, those new viners won't expect to be paid, won't expect monitors and will be just like any other website which encourages posts on their content. I don't think they care about the Viners, because we were not a source of income. Shrugs, I got what I paid for.
