Israel Demolishes Homes As Collective Punishment For Individual Acts
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"...Israel resorts to punitively demolish the family homes of any Palestinians as means of deterrence - accused of being involved in attacks against Israelis, a policy that Israel does not use against Israeli settlers who were involved in fatal attacks against Palestinians.
Al-Haq human rights group slammed the punitive home demolition of Palestinians suspected of being involved in attacks against Israelis, as a collective punishment and that in accordance with humanitarian law and human rights law, it is assessed as a war crime and a crime against humanity.
BTselem, an Israeli human rights group, says: The people who bear the brunt of the [punitive] demolitions are relatives including women, the elderly, and children whom Israel does not suspect of involvement in any offense.
In the vast majority of cases, the person whose actions prompted the demolition was not even living in the house at the time of the demolition, adds the group.
The official objective of the house demolition policy is deterrence yet the deterrent effect of house demolitions has never been proven.
It said that, Since this constitutes deliberate harm to innocents, it is clear that even if house demolition had the desired deterrent effect, it would, nevertheless, remain unlawful.
Amnesty International, argued that, the Israeli authorities claim that such demolitions are effective in dissuading potential attackers is entirely irrelevant in the eyes of International humanitarian law, which places clear limits on the actions which an occupying power may take in the name of security, and the absolute prohibition on collective punishment is one of the most important of these rules.
Collective punishment is never permissible under any circumstances.
Late 2014, The US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki contended that such a move amounted to collective punishment and would only heighten tensions in the region."
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" The political and legal systems have been thrown into turmoil by Supreme Court Justice Vogelman scheduling an emergency hearing on demolition of the homes of the families of Palestinian perpetrators of attacks . Yet all party to this round of legal-administrative brutality can breathe easy: demolitions were sanctioned, are sanctioned, will be sanctioned by the court. Then, a family – which no one claims is guilty of any wrongdoing – will find its home reduced to a pile of rubble, or poured full of concrete."
An Organized Barbarity Called 'Demolishing Terrorists’ Homes'
Let's not forget what Egypt is doing to those homes & tunnels on their border with Gaza . Why no mention of that ? Are you anti-semitic ? It sure seems that way ...
This could be a good time to publish an article I've been saving that identifies double standard excessive forcus on Israel's defensive policies as anti-Semitism. After all, what's the big difference between the horrors and human rights offences being committed by the other countries in the the world and Israel?
Answer: Israel is JEWISH!!!!!
Exactly. That is terrible root cause. Rampant antisemitism on the left.
Another difference, settling territory.
This could be a good time to publish an article I've been saving that identifies double standard excessive forcus on Israel's defensive policies as anti-Semitism. After all, what's the big difference between the horrors and human rights offences being committed by the other countries in the the world and Israel?
You answered your own question. Israel evades criticism of its behavior by calling the critics anti-Semitic and, being Jewish run, Israel is the only country that can pull that stunt. The real question is why should any country be held accountable for its actions when Israel does the same thing with impunity?
"You answered your own question. Israel evades criticism of its behavior by calling the critics anti-Semitic and, being Jewish run, Israel is the only country that can pull that stunt."
You obviously have no knowledge of the Ottawa Protocol, so your response is ridiculous.
The real question is why should any country be held accountable for its actions when Israel does the same thing with impunity?
Nah , the real issue [not a question] is that Israel needs to defend herself against many enemies . As a result the areas she excludes from Arab access are those helpful as defense zones .
Granted that holding out Israel to a double standard, ignoring that Egypt has the same problem with the Gazans and Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and deals with it no differently than Israel, is an anti-Semitic trait, but I do not believe that Johnrussell is anti-Semitic for reasons I posted above.
B'Telem, like Ha'aretz, taking the Palestinian side without retribution, is absolute proof of the democratic and fair treatment of all in Israel, a true democracy with respect for freedom of speech and expression. Compare that to ANY Muslim country.
Footage from Hebron: Israeli military enables 5-day settler attack
B’Tselem documented a five-day (6-10 Oct. 2015) campaign of violence by settlers against Palestinians in Hebron. Settlers repeatedly threw stones and bottles at Palestinian homes near the Kiryat Arba settlement fence, while Israeli security forces looked on. Settler violence intensified after two attacks by Palestinians in Hebron: a settler sustained serious injuries and a Border Police officer was slightly injured; one perpetrator fled, the other was shot to death. In another incident, a confrontation developed with settlers and Palestinians throwing stones at each other. Soldiers stood by the former and fired tear-gas at the latter. This glimpse of daily life in Hebron is an extreme example of the imbalance of power throughout the West Bank, in which Israeli forces back settler violence targeting Palestinians.
Here's the answer to your biased source material . Arabs stab random Jews in Israel as "collective punishment " for Jews . The UN is silent . But John Russell shows his anti-semitism by publishing only one side of this conflict .
But John Russell shows his anti-semitism by publishing only one side of this conflict .
So then you concede that those who only criticize and attack the Palestinians , or one side of this conflict, are anti-Arab or anti-Muslim bigots.
Egypt says foreign powers ignored calls to fight terrorism
@ Petey
Sorry, Petey, but I don't agree with you that Johnrussell is anti-Semitic, and it is no benefit to your postings to call him so. His problem is that he thinks that every criticism of fanatical Islamist violence is anti-Muslim, which is not so. I also believe that John places blame for the conflict on both Israel AND the Palestinians, but that he takes the side of fair opposition to our criticism of the Palestinians to put some balance to the conflict. There are others on this site who deserve your identifying them.
If the Palestinians would stop murdering people, maybe they could have nice things. In the meantime, demolishing the residences of terrorists is not a war crime. Lol.
"The Fourth Geneva Convention protecting civilians in times of war states that no one living under military occupation “may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed.”
It adds that “collective penalties” and “reprisals” against the population and their property are prohibited.
The United Nations Security Council, General Assembly, the International Commitee of the Red Cross and the International Court of Justice in The Hague, among others, have all affirmed repeatedly that Israel’s occupation is governed by the Fourth Geneva Convention."
Why is Israel above complying with the Geneva Convention ?
Why is the rest of the Arab world ? They have ignored human rights abuses for many decades . BTW you're comment removed for CoC violation [ph] no concept of the damage caused by excessive birth levels in a region such as the Gaza strip . How many people are there is the world & what does it matter ? Let's hear your imbecile reply to that ...
This thread is about collective punishment for individual acts in an occupied territory, which violates the Geneva Convention. Try and confine your wayward thoughts to that topic.
So , you're OK with the random unprovoked stabbings on Jews in Israel ? Not surprising coming from someone with your bias ...
Why is Israel above complying with the Geneva Convention ?
AIPAC
"Why is Israel above complying with the Geneva Convention ?
AIPAC"
An opportunity to criticize support of Israel is rarely passed over. Isn't what they say of Palestinians is that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Buzz, this site is so one sided in Israel's favor , I just seed an article like this now and then to give NT some superficial appearance of fairness on the matter. Stop complaining about how Israel is attacked on Newstalkers, you look ridiculous.
If all this daily anti-Muslim prejudice continues here though, there may be more stories like this one showing up.
Of all of the articles concerning Muslims and Israelis, nearly all of them are anti-Muslim and Israelis are treated like they are poor victims. Bullshit. The number one impediment to peace between Israelis and Palestinians? Likud.
So you're saying that these stabbing incidents of Jews in Israel is just some poor unfortunate arabs expressing their disappointment in life ? Sure arabs , it's OK to stab Jews . They deserve it . They're Jews ! Got it , you toxic west coast crab ...
@John
"Buzz, this site is so one sided in Israel's favor..."
Don't fret, John, you, Randy, Max Henry, 1ofmany, and a few others who are not quite so active do a pretty good job at opposition. At least you're more credible and not so vicious as others. That's why I have more respect for you.
"Stop complaining about how Israel is attacked on Newstalkers, you look ridiculous."
I'm not complaining about how Israel is attacked. I'm simply reporting what the mainstream press is afraid to publish because they're AFRAID to publish the truth, they want their heads to remain attached to the rest of their bodies, and they follow the Obama lead at using euphamisms ("workplace violence" "some folks").
"If all this daily anti-Muslim prejudice continues here..."
That is where you're wrong, it isn't anti-Muslim, it may be anti fanatical Islamist and anti violent fundamentalist Muslim, or anti Palestinian jihadis.
Why is Hamas? Different standards equals antisemitism.
If the Palestinians would stop murdering people, maybe they could have nice things.
If the Israeli invaders in the occupied territories would stop murdering Palestinians then maybe they could have peace. Oh and tear down the "settlements" and go back to Israel.
Will do as soon as the USA gives back California to Mexico/Spain.
If an Israeli murders a Palestinian he doesn't get a street or park or school named after him and his family is not given a reward of money and income support.
I should have put this except from Randy's comment before mine for it to make sense.
"...tear down the "settlements" and go back to Israel."
If an Israeli murders a Palestinian he doesn't get a street or park or school named after him and his family is not given a reward of money and income support.
No, Israelis do much worse. They kill en masse, snatch the land out from under the Palestinians, and then push them into an open air prison. When some resist occupation, Israel punishes the entire population (whether they did anything or not) in the fashion of the NAZIs.
an open air prison.
Actually it is now an open air mess but it used to be quite nice . Blame that on Palestinian rocket attacks and Israel's inevitable response . Oh , one more thing : the funds supposed to be about rebuilding Gaza are being used for re-arming instead ... bad joke made real by Hamas politics .
That's right, Petey. In fact before Hamas came into control, many Gazans had good-paying jobs in Israel, and movement back and forth was easy. Have you seen photos of what Gaza looked like? It had the potential of becoming the Arab Cote d'Azure, a paradise, with the potential of huge numbers of hospitality employment. What a good life they could have had. However, look what happened when Hamas took over and started firing rockets into Israel, so it cannot be blamed on Israel.
They kill en masse, snatch the land out from under the Palestinians, and then push them into an open air prison.
Perfect description.
How dare there be people living on the land that god gave to the Jews thousands and thousands of years ago in a book of gibberish that they themselves wrote saying that god gave it to them, after slaughtering the 10's of thousands of people every man, woman and child already living there and destroying their cites first. Again because a book THEY wrote that said god said it was OK for them to slaughter them. That excuses everything and is the excuse for every atrocity the Israelis commit. Pretty fucking convenient excuse. Sounds a whole lot like genocide to me.
@ 1ofmany=-
"When some resist occupation, Israel punishes the entire population (whether they did anything or not) in the fashion of the NAZIs."
As I said to Randy, your comrade in arms, that comparing Israelis (Jews) to nazis is outright blatant anti-Semitism, or did you not know that.
"As I said to Randy, your comrade in arms, that comparing Israelis (Jews) to nazis is outright blatant anti-Semitism, or did you not know that."
Nothing anti-Semitic about it. If Jews don't want to be compared to nazis, then don't act like them.
Nothing anti-Semitic about it. If Jews don't want to be compared to nazis, then don't act like them.
ABSOLUTELY, but they won't until Israel rids itself of the war mongering racist plague of Netanyahu and the Likud party. No one is a bigger block to peace between Israel and the Palestinians then they are. Yes Bibi put a moratorium in place for awhile against building new settlements in the occupied territories, but that time should have been used to destroy all of the current Jewish settlements in those territories that don't belong there anyway. The goal is to take some and some more and some more, until a two state solution is impossible because Likud will declare the occupied territories to be a part of the State of Israel and the US, much to our shame, are letting them do it. That is their goal. To annex the occupied territories as a permanent part of Israel and they are doing it by stealing land, by constructing settlements and not getting rid of the illegal ones that are already there.
Said like a real west coast toxic crab !
Too fucking bad. They should think of the consequences BEFORE killing and maiming innocent people and committing wanton acts of terrorism BEFORE doing it. I have no doubt that everyone in the house knows damn well what the criminal act is that the terrorist is going to do, and they should have stopped him or reported it. Obviously everyone in the house shares the complicity.
Buzz, evidently it goes against the Geneva convention to punish people collectively for individual acts inside an occupied population.
And you wonder why Israel has lost respect in some places.
As I said, if you share complicity it isn't collective punishment.
As I said, if you share complicity it isn't collective punishment.
This is the ridiculous justification used by the NAZIs and expressly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions.
100% correct! At least the Likud Israeli government can't be accused of not having learned from the worst. Do unto the Palestinians, what was done unto you by the Nazis. Two wrongs make a right is Bibi's motto it would seem.
Here's a scenario for those on NT who are pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel, anti-Netanyahu.
If you can, picture this scenario:
ISIS has conquered Mexico and is in control there. They have a million militants along the US border. Russia has nuclear subs loaded with nuclear missiles just off the US coast all in intenational waters. Hamas has taken control of the Bahamas and have installed a thousand ballistic missiles supplied by Iran aimed at the US. Canada has fallen to Hezbollah and with ballistic missiles and air defence systems supplied by Iran and Russia are screaming "Death to America". The Taliban are now ensconced in Cuba, and Al Qaida has conquered Bermuda and Greenland.
Now, think about Israel.
I notice that none of the Israel-bashers would like to comment on that.
Give Peace A Chance sometime Buzz. You'll probably have to get rid of Netanyahu first though.
Bibi has to go and Likud has to be out of power for there to be a chance at peace. They are the biggest roadblock.
They are the biggest roadblock.
For a real chance at peace there must be a lessening of the huge birthrate in the Gaza strip . It is not a large region . They already have the highest unemployment rate in the middle east , an area not known for employment ...
What would you do? - offer an olive branch to all those nations and organizations that are sworn and dedicated and promoted by incitement and directed by the Q'oran to obliterate you? Is Hamas going to stop its attacks if Israel were to move back to pre-1967 lines? That's not what their "constitution (?)" says, but that doesn't matter because there is no way that Israel will give up its holiest sites anyway - look how the Palestinians are destroying the holy sites they do occupy. The destruction has been reported in mainstream news and it isn't biased. Israel is a tiny island in the middle of an ocean of nations that are only impressed by strength. Show weakness and they will laugh while they slit your throat. I really don't think of you as being naive, John, and I don't disrespect your wish to see a peaceful solution to this, but I've been there and I know the realities of the situation.
What would you do? - offer an olive branch to all those nations and organizations that are sworn and dedicated and promoted by incitement and directed by the Q'oran to obliterate you? Is Hamas going to stop its attacks if Israel were to move back to pre-1967 lines? That's not what their "constitution (?)" says, but that doesn't matter because there is no way that Israel will give up its holiest sites anyway - look how the Palestinians are destroying the holy sites they do occupy. The destruction has been reported in mainstream news and it isn't biased. Israel is a tiny island in the middle of an ocean of nations that are only impressed by strength. Show weakness and they will laugh while they slit your throat. I really don't think of you as being naive, John, and I don't disrespect your wish to see a peaceful solution to this, but I've been there and I know the realities of the situation.
Israel is surrounded by 300 million Arabs/Muslims. That tsunami is held at bay only because of American money and military assistance. One day, this country will be unwilling and/or unable to provide that level of assistance. You cannot shoot your way into peace. Rather than eternal this eternal struggle, end the occupation and let the Palestinians return home. Settle your differences at the ballot box like everyone else: one man, one vote. And no I don't want to hear about how they hate you. I heard all that when white South Africans said the same thing. There was no bloodbath. Hamas and organizations like it don't speak for everybody and they would lose much of their strength if the occupation ended. Continued occupation only infuriates the people and it strengthens the resistance. Most people everywhere just want justice and to live in peace. You cannot get one without the other. Why is that so hard to understand.
Why is it that it has to be Israel that makes the concessions. Israel vacated the Jews out of Gaza - then the rockets started flying. Israel has released as an incentive thousands of terrorist prisoners who had blood on their hands, some of whom returned to their terrorism. Israel put an 11 month moratorium on settlement building as demanded by Abbas as a precondition, and that didn't work because Abbas did nothing except at the 11th hour demand an extension. Let's see what the Palestinians have to offer for once, besides incitement and stabbings and rockets.
Israel is surrounded by 300 million Arabs/Muslims.
Israel is a tiny strip of land surrounded by huge Arabic real estate . The Arabs are extremely cheap about their worthless desert lands . But thay doesn't stop the Gazans from overpopulating their small strip like rabbits .
Here's a scenario for those on NT who are pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel, anti-Netanyahu.
If you can, picture this scenario: ISIS has conquered Mexico and is in control there. They have a million militants along the US border. Russia has nuclear subs loaded with nuclear missiles just off the US coast all in intenational waters. Hamas has taken control of the Bahamas and have installed a thousand ballistic missiles supplied by Iran aimed at the US. Canada has fallen to Hezbollah and with ballistic missiles and air defence systems supplied by Iran and Russia are screaming "Death to America". The Taliban are now ensconced in Cuba, and Al Qaida has conquered Bermuda and Greenland. Now, think about Israel.
The image you conjure sounds like Custer surrounded at the little big horn. He went where he didn't belong to do what he shouldn't have been doing and he got scalped. Israel is surrounded by 300 million Arabs/Muslims who support the Palestinians. Now, before you make your last stand like Custer did, end the occupation.
In my opinion it's naive to think that if Israel went back to pre-1967 borders then the Arabs would be happy and leave Israel alone. Their wish is to destroy Israel and annihilate the Jews.
In my opinion it's naive to think that if Israel went back to pre-1967 borders then the Arabs would be happy and leave Israel alone. Their wish is to destroy Israel and annihilate the Jews.
What's truly naive is to think that you can ever know peace without justice. Either let the Palestinians return or give them an independent viable Palestinian state with land that connects the two existing bantustans. Or fight forever.
The only way you can make the Palestinian lands contiguous in their present location is cut cut Irael into two unconnected parts, unless The Palestinians would be satisfied with a big piece of Sinai connected to Gaza. Egypt and Isreal would both have to contibute land, but the Palestinians would have to give up the West Bank and Jerusalem - and I shue as hell doubt they would agree to that.
Having eliminated one option by saying that either the Palestinian state or Israel would be cut in two, then that leaves two other options: let the Palestinians return and have one state or fight forever.
@1ofmany
one state?
And then, of course as you well know, demographics would turn Israel into a theocratic Arab state just like all the rest that surrounds it, and if Jews were permitted to survive then they would be dhimmis, paying Jizya.
But you already know that, so you see no need why Jews might have one tiny sliver of a country where they can be safe from anti-Semitism and the events caused by it.
one state? And then, of course as you well know, demographics would turn Israel into a theocratic Arab state just like all the rest that surrounds it, and if Jews were permitted to survive then they would be dhimmis, paying Jizya.But you already know that, so you see no need why Jews might have one tiny sliver of a country where they can be safe from anti-Semitism and the events caused by it.
I don't know what would happen in a one-state solution and neither do you. The harm done to Jews does not under any rational justify them dispossessing the Palestinians of their land who had nothing to do with Jewish problems in Europe. Israel is an occupation force and those who are occupied have a right to resist it. There will never be peace as long as there is no justice so Israel will be fighting for that sliver of land forever or until it is eventually overwhelmed by the Arabs who surround it. In time, one way or another, there will be one state.
@1ofmany :
You seem to be obsessed with this one conflict . How about other regions where the same kind of "injustice" is going on ? Why is the Gazan tendency to overpopulate a small region not even mentioned as a potential problem ?
You seem to be obsessed with this one conflict . How about other regions where the same kind of "injustice" is going on ? Why is the Gazan tendency to overpopulate a small region not even mentioned as a potential problem ?
Unlike some who ignore injustice in Israel, I object to injustice wherever it takes place. As for the Gazan's overpopulating Gaza, Israel should move over and make more room. Problem solved.
@1ofmany
That was some serious issue dodging you did there . I notice you never write or seed material . If you did it would quickly become obvious that you are obsessed with finding injustice only in Israel .
As far as Israel making room , why should they make more room for Gaza ? They already left that strip of land ceding complete control of it to Hamas who declares they will only be happy when the Jews are all dead . Its hard to be more anti-Semitic than that . Would you like to compete with Hamas for that "honor" ?
That was some serious issue dodging you did there . I notice you never write or seed material . If you did it would quickly become obvious that you are obsessed with finding injustice only in Israel .
I dodged nothing. As for the rest, all you have said is that you have nothing on which to base your opinion. On that, we agree.
As far as Israel making room , why should they make more room for Gaza ? They already left that strip of land ceding complete control of it to Hamas who declares they will only be happy when the Jews are all dead . Its hard to be more anti-Semitic than that . Would you like to compete with Hamas for that "honor" ?
You were worried about overpopulation in Gaza so I suggested giving them more room on the land that was stolen from them. If that's not to your liking, then go over there and pass out condoms carrying a big sign that says "we'd all be better off if there were fewer of you." As for Hamas, it's fueled by the occupation. End the occupation and Hamas would shrivel. Continue the occupation and fight forever. Israel can end the Zionist occupation and be one country just like South Africa ended apartheid. All most Palestinians want to do is live in peace and raise their families just like Jews. Perhaps you would like the honor of extending your hand first.
You were worried about overpopulation in Gaza so I suggested giving them more room on the land that was stolen from them.
That is an amazingly low insight approach to the ongoing problem of overpopulation . They already were given land , the Gaza strip . If they can't stop pullulating like rabbits they will continue to expand their numbers beyond the ability of their land to support it . Rabbits have predators to impede their numbers . Gazans have no such limitations . No wonder all their neighbors build walls to contain their expansion .
Surely you have limits on your fecundity from outside sources . Or do you want to expand the numbers of your offspring without limits too ?
go over there and pass out condoms carrying a big sign that says "we'd all be better off if there were fewer of you.
I have no interest to be beheaded . That's why I refuse to go there . How about you ? Do you support the fight against injustice enough to put your neck on the line ?
You were worried about overpopulation in Gaza so I suggested giving them more room on the land that was stolen from them.
That is an amazingly low insight approach to the ongoing problem of overpopulation . They already were given land , the Gaza strip . If they can't stop pullulating like rabbits they will continue to expand their numbers beyond the ability of their land to support it . Rabbits have predators to impede their numbers . Gazans have no such limitations . No wonder all their neighbors build walls to contain their expansion . Surely you have limits on your fecundity from outside sources . Or do you want to expand the numbers of your offspring without limits too ?
They're people under occupation, not rabbits. I doubt they have an interest in adjusting to the confines of an open air prison and, at some point, intend to break out. Their fecundity will come in handy either as an armed force to end occupation or at the ballot box in a one-state solution.
go over there and pass out condoms carrying a big sign that says "we'd all be better off if there were fewer of you.
I have no interest to be beheaded . That's why I refuse to go there . How about you ? Do you support the fight against injustice enough to put your neck on the line ?
I'm fine where I am . . . just as you are.
@1ofmany :
Your hypocrisy is that you would only be safe if you went to Israel . Your life would no doubt be forfeited if you went to Gaza . You say they are not rabbits . Why do they populate like rabbits ? You still don't publish anything because you know your incompetence in defending any work . You are quite a hypocrite . Your persistent defense of those with a clearly stated goal of killing Israeli Jews seems to reflect on a lack of morality on your part . Taking your cries of "injustice" seriously is not possible . You laud murderous goals . Your "morality" is a sick joke .
Your hypocrisy is that you would only be safe if you went to Israel . Your life would no doubt be forfeited if you went to Gaza . You say they are not rabbits . Why do they populate like rabbits ? You still don't publish anything because you know your incompetence in defending any work . You are quite a hypocrite . Your persistent defense of those with a clearly stated goal of killing Israeli Jews seems to reflect on a lack of morality on your part . Taking your cries of "injustice" seriously is not possible . You laud murderous goals . Your "morality" is a sick joke .
The issue is justice not safety. Your hypocrisy is that you blithely condemn others to live under conditions that you yourself would find intolerable. Oh and just so you know, seeding the work of others (in the form of articles) is purely to spark discussion and does not, in and of itself, reflect thinking by the seeder.
The issue is justice not safety.
As long as you get to define what justice means your argument is satisfied . If you ask Hamas what justice means you would get an entirely different picture . They're approach : the only good jew is a dead jew . By refusing to see the obvious you align your so-called justice with that murderous goal . That's sick ...
@ 1ofmany
"As for Hamas, it's fueled by the occupation. End the occupation and Hamas would shrivel."
I guess you ignored this:
Petey - he also ignores the fact that Egypt is as concerned about Gaza and Hamas and the jihadis there as Israel is, and has also protected themselves from them, but then there are people who focus on Israel alone, aren't there.
I wonder why (/s)
"I don't know what would happen in a one-state solution and neither do you."
You are THAT naive? Point out to me any Muslim majority nation where Jews are treated equally with Muslims. Have you never heard of dhimmis, jizra, and just (quoted from Schindler's List - a movie perhaps you should see again if you already have) "good old fashioned Jew hatred".
"What's truly naive is to think that you can ever know peace without justice."
The problem is that according to the Palestinians "justice" = "revenge".
What's truly naive is to think that you can ever know peace without justice.
What is extremely naive is to think that the Arab concepts of justice are the same as the western ones . They're not even close ...
Israel is surrounded by 300 million Arabs/Muslims who support the Palestinians.
Nah . It is merely a convenient anti-Israel cause . The perception that Arabs are a united front is an illusion you want to believe because it allows you to give into your worst fears , unfounded ones .
??? s/ ???
Let me elaborate Buzz . 300 Million arabs pay lip service to the "palestinian cause" . They used to band together to attack Israel but after the 1st few failures at war they gave up . Now all they have left is lip service to that meaningless cause . Its meaningless because the palestinians have no interest in running their own state . They would prefer to sponge off the UN permanently .
@ Randy
"Do unto the Palestinians, what was done unto you by the Nazis."
Comparing Israelis (Jews) to nazis is blatant, outright anti-Semitism. How does your wife feel about your attitude, or is she a devotee of Noam Chomsky?
I thought it was ok for civilized western countries to have laws against harbouring criminals, and collusion in crimial acts, and accessories to the crime. I guess that doesn't apply in your opinion to Israsl.
Collective punishment? What do you call stabbing an innocent person walking down the street minding his or her own business, or slicing the necks of babies, because of a different political view?
Collective punishment? What do you call stabbing an innocent person walking down the street minding his or her own business, or slicing the necks of babies, because of a different political view?
By definition, that would be terrorism. If caught, the individual is punished for his actions. However, you don't slap his grandmother, burn his father's house down, smash his sister's car, or block all of his neighbors from getting to the grocery store in retaliation for one person's criminal acts. The latter is the principal that underpins the Geneva Conventions that outlaws collective punishment among civilized nations.
you don't slap his grandmother, burn his father's house down, smash his sister's car, or block all of his neighbors from getting to the grocery store in retaliation for one person's criminal acts.
"You" in this case is likely to be criminals among the Israeli populace . Ascribing blame to Israel's government is merely a demonstration of your severe bias . I don't see where such a severe bias can be separated from anti-semitism .
you don't slap his grandmother, burn his father's house down, smash his sister's car, or block all of his neighbors from getting to the grocery store in retaliation for one person's criminal acts.
"You" in this case is likely to be criminals among the Israeli populace . Ascribing blame to Israel's government is merely a demonstration of your severe bias . I don't see where such a severe bias can be separated from anti-semitism .
The topic was collective punishment by the Israeli government for individual acts. I was making an analogy. And of course you label it as bias and anti-Antisemitism . . . because you ran out of anything else to say. Why don't you stick your tongue out too?
I still see your refusal to distinguish between what individual Israelis do and the govt of Israel for what it is , bias . Is it dark where your head is inserted ?
Collective punishment? What do you call stabbing an innocent person walking down the street minding his or her own business, or slicing the necks of babies, because of a different political view?
. . . one more thing. Israel likes to act like it's the same as New York or London but the Palestinians are living under colonial occupation. To the Palestinians, their situation is similar to the German occupation of France and they resist it the same as the French did. Collective punishment in the end will be no more effective against the Palestinians than it was against the French when the NAZIs shot or hanged scores of innocent Frenchmen for every act of terrorism directed at German soldiers. In fact, I think collective punishment is probably an effective recruitment tool for terrorists and here's why. If I lived under occupation and my cousin decided to run down the street killing innocent occupiers, I'd probably decline to join him. If, however, the occupation police beat my grandmother up and burned my uncle's house down in retaliation for my cousin's act, then I'd be angry enough to join the resistance. When the terrorists said it's perfectly OK to kill innocent people because that's what the occupiers do to us (and remind me of my uncle/grandmother and then named the innocent who were killed), I might now be inclined to do what I was disinclined to do before.
This comment is for those of you who believe the false Palestinian narrative that there were no Jews in Palestine before the Palestinians occupied the land and all Jews are invaders on their lands (A fair supposition considering your stated attitudes).
Aren't you lucky the Native Americans are not acting like the Palestinians.
This comment is for those of you who believe the false Palestinian narrative that there were no Jews in Palestine before the Palestinians occupied the land and all Jews are invaders on their lands (A fair supposition considering your stated attitudes). Aren't you lucky the Native Americans are not acting like the Palestinians
In case you don't know, Native Americans are American citizens free to come and go as they choose just like anybody else. If there were 350 million of them denied American citizenship and clustered along the Mexican and Canadian borders confined to a bantustan, then they might well be acting like Palestinians and rightly so.
I'd like to see what Kavika would say about your reply, 1ofmany.
And you wonder why Israel has lost respect in some places.
In MOST places.
There are many Jews of conscience who oppose Israel's actions but are not often heard.
I find it interesting that when an article that is anti-Israel is published it gets about 100 replies, but when a pro-Israel article is published, it's lucky to get 3 or 4 replies, one of which is by the person posting the article. There are members here who are known to ignore anything positive about Israel, most likely because they are irrevocably poisoned by Palestinian propaganda - the Palestinians are much better at it than Israelis. Having no ability to accept balance is no surprise to me. As well, they are so ready to criticize a country they have never been to and experienced what really happens there, so much of which the mainstream media is so reluctant to publish.
I have a question for the Israel-bashers on this site. You see it as being justified that terrorist Palestinians are attacking innocent Israelis on the streets, whether because of Netanyahu, or Likud, or the settlements, or the Temple Mount, or whatever. In Israel the terrorists attacking Jews are not otherJews; they're not Christians; they're not Buddhists; they're not Hindus; they're not Baha'i. The terrorist Palestinians are not moderate Muslims, but they are radical Muslims. (Hopefully Johnrussell will agree with that.) One of you has even used the word "justice" to explain the hatred and terrorism. Now, my question. What did Paris France do to deserve what the radical Muslim Palestinians have been doing to Israel since Partition? Obviously it is not just hatred of Israel that has led to terror, it is just good old fashioned hatred. So why single out Israel for fault because obviously fault is not THE factor?
You speak of collective punishment. What do you call what the radical Muslims have just done to the French people - INNOCENT French people? Your POTUS would probably call it workplace violence carried out by some folks.
(By the way, it has now been reported that the terrorists were Muslims. Survivors have said that they screamed "Aliyahu Akbar" while they carried out their slaughter, and a captured terrorist identified himself as ISIS.
I have a question for the Israel-bashers on this site. You see it as being justified that terrorist Palestinians are attacking innocent Israelis on the streets, whether because of Netanyahu, or Likud, or the settlements, or the Temple Mount, or whatever. In Israel the terrorists attacking Jews are not otherJews; they're not Christians; they're not Buddhists; they're not Hindus; they're not Baha'i. The terrorist Palestinians are not moderate Muslims, but they are radical Muslims. (Hopefully Johnrussell will agree with that.) One of you has even used the word "justice" to explain the hatred and terrorism. Now, my question. What did Paris France do to deserve what the radical Muslim Palestinians have been doing to Israel since Partition? Obviously it is not just hatred of Israel that has led to terror, it is just good old fashioned hatred.
I assume that your intent is to suggest that Israel is in the same boat as France because both are on the receiving end of terrorism. Terrorism is the same but the motives are different; just as Jewish terrorism had a different motive when employed by the Irgun and the Stern Gang to snatch the land from under the Palestinians. It is frequently used as a tactic of asymmetrical warfare when up against a much more powerful force (you know like when Jews used terrorism against the British). Let's just pull the mask down. Israel pushed the Palestinians onto a bantustan and it consistently negotiates in bad faith because Israel has no intention of allowing the creation of a viable independent Palestinian state. Whether the Palestinians resist violently or peacefully, the result is the same (the Israeli settlements expand on the West Bank and collective punishment is imposed the Palestinians dare to resist). It's becoming obvious that the Palestinians will never get independence unless they take it by force.
So why single out Israel for fault because obviously fault is not THE factor? You conflate a west/Islam struggle with the Israeli occupation to confuse the issue. Israeli occupation is THE factor in the Palestinian resistance the same way German occupation was the factor in the French resistance.
You speak of collective punishment. What do you call what the radical Muslims have just done to the French people - INNOCENT French people? Your POTUS would probably call it workplace violence carried out by some folks.
ISIL is engaged in a culture war with the west and it has nothing to do with Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
"Terrorism is the same but the motives are different"
No they aren't.
"ISIL is engaged in a culture war with the west and it has nothing to do with Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza."
The owners of the concert hall are Jewish, and supportive of Israel, and the band playing there at the time had played in Israel.
No connection, of course. s/
"Israel pushed the Palestinians onto a bantustan and it consistently negotiates in bad faith because Israel has no intention of allowing the creation of a viable independent Palestinian state."
Of course it's no surprise to me that you ignore that the Palestinians walked away from the Camp David accord where they would have gained about 95% of their demands, or Olmert's offer, which would have given them 97% of their demands, and you say Israel doesn't negotiate in good faith. There's compromise and negotiation for you. And of course when Israel vacated their citizens from Gaza, forcibly, released hundreds of terrorist prisoners who had blood on their hands, put an 11 month moratorium on settlement building as attempts to get the Palestinians to negotiate - who refused to compromise? Who refused to negotiate.
You're really good at spouting out the Palestinian propaganda, but of course you're not brain-deficient as you say I am.
"ISIL is engaged in a culture war with the west and it has nothing to do with Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza."
The owners of the concert hall are Jewish, and supportive of Israel, and the band playing there at the time had played in Israel.
The terrorists haven't been identified as Palestinian and they shot people indiscriminately without regard to nationality. So you've established nothing.
"Israel pushed the Palestinians onto a bantustan and it consistently negotiates in bad faith because Israel has no intention of allowing the creation of a viable independent Palestinian state."
Of course it's no surprise to me that you ignore that the Palestinians walked away from the Camp David accord where they would have gained about 95% of their demands, or Olmert's offer, which would have given them 97% of their demands, and you say Israel doesn't negotiate in good faith. There's compromise and negotiation for you. And of course when Israel vacated their citizens from Gaza, forcibly, released hundreds of terrorist prisoners who had blood on their hands, put an 11 month moratorium on settlement building as attempts to get the Palestinians to negotiate - who refused to compromise? Who refused to negotiate.
That's the Israeli spin. The Palestinian side is that, among other things, Israel wanted 10% of the West Bank with no land given to a Palestinian state in return. The Palestinian state would be broken up by Israeli settlement blocks. The West Bank and Gaza would be joined by a highway that Israel would control but most importantly, Palestinians would have to give up the right of return to Israel. So Arafat walked away. And all of that has nothing to do with the subsequent clear intent of Israel to expand settlements in the West Bank and control Gaza. Israel's willingness to agree to a Palestinian state is just lip service for the media as their actions prove they have no intent to ever allow a viable independent state to exist. Bad faith.
No surprise to me that you have totally ignored all the concessions made by Israel in an attempt to get the Palestinians to negotiate. The Palestinians have NEVER negotiated, never made one concession, only made demands. That is NOT good faith. You tell me I'm just repeating the Israeli line - but then why not, since you're just repeating the Palestinian propaganda.
What difference does it make if the Paris perps were Palestinian or not - I didn't say they were. However, Islamists all over the world carry out their terrorism saying it is in support of the Palestinians. Even Sixpick's 19 minute video had anti-Semitic statements by a Brit saying it was a Zionistic plot, and then quite clearly at the end. Everyone blames Israel for their own wrongdoings.
No surprise to me that you have totally ignored all the concessions made by Israel in an attempt to get the Palestinians to negotiate. The Palestinians have NEVER negotiated, never made one concession, only made demands. That is NOT good faith. You tell me I'm just repeating the Israeli line - but then why not, since you're just repeating the Palestinian propaganda.
I didn't ignore anything. You posted the Israeli position and I posted the Palestinian counterpoint so its not one-sided. So both sides can accuse the other of not acting in good faith and nothing is resolved. In my opinion, a two-state solution is no longer possible. Israel should be subject to international sanctions and American aid suspended until Israel lets the Palestinians return. Make it one state. One man; one vote.
What difference does it make if the Paris perps were Palestinian or not - I didn't say they were. However, Islamists all over the world carry out their terrorism saying it is in support of the Palestinians.
You tried to link the violence in Paris to the violence in Israel and I said there is no link. You tried to establish a link by saying the owners of concert hall were Jewish and the band had been to Israel. A thin connection at best. I pointed out that the victims were killed without regard to nationality (some may even have been Muslim). There's also no evidence to show that the terrorists were Palestinian and the victims were chosen randomly. My point is that, if the terrorists are not Palestinians and the victims were not Israeli or even Jewish, then you can't link it to Israel simply by saying that Muslims support Palestinians.
Buzz--
Here's the content of the link that wouldn't open for you:
(Jerusalem) – The Israeli military unlawfully demolished at least 39 structures in Bedouin Palestinian communities in the West Bank on August 17 and 18, 2015. The demolitions left 126 people homeless, 80 of them children. Four of the communities where the demolitions took place are targeted by an Israeli government plan to forcibly “relocate” 7,000 Bedouin.
Such destruction of private Palestinian property and the forcible transfer of Palestinians violate Israel’s human rights obligations and the laws of occupation. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from destroying private property or forcibly transferring the protected population unless strictly necessary for military reasons. Israel does not claim the demolitions or planned relocations are justified for military reasons.
“This escalation of these unlawful Israeli demolitions comes at a time when the situation in Palestine is under the International Criminal Court’s scrutiny,” said Balkees Jarrah , senior international justice counsel. “The ICC prosecutor should look carefully at these demolitions as part of her preliminary examination into serious crimes committed in or from Palestine.”
The August 17 demolition of the homes in the four Bedouin communities, which are located in or around an area called E-1, left 78 people homeless. This is the largest number of Palestinians displaced in a single day in more than three years, according to United Nations officials. E-1 lies between Jerusalem and the settlement of Ma’aleh Adumim, which like all Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international humanitarian law. The four communities are among 46 Bedouin communities across Area C, the area of the West Bank under full Israeli control, that Israel plans to relocate to three other sites in the West Bank. On August 18, the Israeli military demolished homes in the Jordan Valley village of Fusa’il, leaving another 48 people homeless, according to the Israeli daily Ha’aretz .
Israel justifies these demolitions on the grounds that the structures lack Israeli-issued building permits. However, the Civil Administration, the unit in the Israeli military responsible for civilian affairs in the West Bank, routinely rejects virtually all Palestinian requests for such permits, usually on the basis that these areas have not been zoned for construction. Israel has zoned less than 1 percent of Area C for Palestinian construction. In contrast, Israel has approved master plans for Jewish settlements covering 26 percent of Area C. According to information the Civil Administration provided to the World Bank, between 2000 and 2012 Israel rejected more than 94 percent of Palestinian construction permit requests.
Human Rights Watch has documented how the cumulative impact of Israeli restrictions on Palestinian construction and related demolitions, along with other restrictive policies, have resulted in the forcible transfer of Palestinians. Palestinians who are unable to build homes are compelled to move to areas of the West Bank under Palestinian Authority control or to emigrate from Palestine altogether. The August 17 and 18 demolitions in the very communities Israel has earmarked for “relocation” suggests a close relationship between Israel’s zoning, construction, and demolition policies and the forcible transfer of Palestinians, Human Rights Watch said.
Israel carried out the most recent demolitions despite concerted international pressure to keep it from carrying out demolition orders against the entire village of Susiya , in the southern West Bank. So far those demolitions have not occurred.
The ICC statute classifies as a war crime an occupying power’s transfer of its own civilians “directly or indirectly” into territory it occupies. The deportation or transfer of people in the occupied territory from their homes to other locations within or outside this territory is also a war crime under the ICC statute. Since the beginning of 2011, Israeli demolitions in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have left more than 4,652 Palestinians homeless, including 1,103 in 2013 and 1,215 in 2014 .
“International pressure may have so far saved Susiya, but it hasn’t saved the hundred-plus Palestinians elsewhere in the West Bank from demolition of their homes,” Jarrah said. “The lack of redress for clearly unlawful acts is why the ICC’s current examination is so crucial.”
Thank you, 1ofmany, for taking the time and effort to enable me to read the linked article. May I know its source?
My understanding was that the lands were in within the Negev desert area, well within pre-1967 Israel, that the buildings were put there without permits, were ramshackle dwellings without water or electricity hookup, and that the Bedouins were offered free lands a very short distance away to relocate. However they preferred to make it a political issue to add to the Palestinian propaganda.
If in fact that is not true, then this is one of the actions taken by Israel that I oppose and am critical of Israel for having done. I am not so biased to think that Israel can do no wrong. Before I joined a social news network and read opinions of all kinds, I was a believer that Israel could do no wrong. However, over the last number of years I have realized that there are flaws. But I also know that there most likely isn't a country or nation in the world that is beyond reasons for criticism. At least I admit that have learned that not only is there a "rest of the story", but there is also another side of the story. I only wish that others would come to the same realization - including those who continue to bash Israel, its government and leader.
Thank you, 1ofmany, for taking the time and effort to enable me to read the linked article. May I know its source?
Sure. It's a report by Human Rights Watch, dated August 20, 2015 entitled "Israel: Surge in Unlawful Palestinian Home Demolitions."
My understanding was that the lands were in within the Negev desert area, well within pre-1967 Israel, that the buildings were put there without permits, were ramshackle dwellings without water or electricity hookup, and that the Bedouins were offered free lands a very short distance away to relocate. However they preferred to make it a political issue to add to the Palestinian propaganda.
I have read both accounts so my guess is that some may have been given the offer you reference and others were not.
If in fact that is not true, then this is one of the actions taken by Israel that I oppose and am critical of Israel for having done. I am not so biased to think that Israel can do no wrong. Before I joined a social news network and read opinions of all kinds, I was a believer that Israel could do no wrong. However, over the last number of years I have realized that there are flaws. But I also know that there most likely isn't a country or nation in the world that is beyond reasons for criticism. At least I admit that have learned that not only is there a "rest of the story", but there is also another side of the story.
Just to clarify my position, I'm against Zionism (not Jews) because I view it as neo-colonialism. Like you, my position evolved over time. Initially, I supported Israel and saw the country as the embodiment of a David and Goliath struggle. However, as I came to realize the historical context, I shifted my position. It's similar to the old cowboy and Indian movies where the movie is presented entirely from the viewpoint of white settlers. They're just trying to make their way to a better land where they hope to find a better life. A white family is just rolling along the prairie, minding their own business and meaning nobody any harm when, all of a sudden, hundreds of savages fall on them. The husband is shot full of arrows and scalped, the wife is raped, and the children are left alone in the dirt to die in the sun, crying over their dead parents. But from the Indian point of view, the white settlers are part of a larger invasion of people who steal their land, desecrate their sacred places, kill off the Indian's food source for sport, rape their women, kill their children, and try to confine them to a reservation. Indians would sign peace treaties only to have them broken by whites when keeping the treaty was no longer convenient. Seeing no peaceful alternative, the Indians retaliated and killed the next white settlers that crossed their land (which is where the unfortunate settler family comes in). So yes, I think they're many innocent Israelis who mean no harm and don't deserve to be scalped but there are also many frustrated and angry Palestinians who, like the Indians, don't deserve to be pushed off their land. Both sides have a story. The Israeli side is told often on many websites. When I comment from the Palestinian side, it's because the Palestinian side needs to be heard as well. It's not because I'm blind to the Israeli position.