Israel Uncovers Hamas Tunnel From Gaza

The tunnel was equipped with a ventilation system, electricity and railcar tracks.

An endeavor of this nature uses an incredible amount of labor and building materials.

Does anyone not see it?

Does everyone get it?

Do I have to explain it to you?

Not to me.  Hamas has to go much deeper to elude being discovered. But then they belong there - Hamas can go to hell.

Israel should pay it's own expenses for colonial occupation and take its hand out of the back pocket of the American taxpayer. If we have $40 million to give away, then give it to the needy in this country.

Your comment is off-topic.

Please be courteous, and seed your own article on whatever topic you like.

Thank you.

Your comment is off-topic.

Your article mentions that Israel paid for this occupation project with American taxpayer money so that comment in your article is fair game.

Israel should pay it's own expenses for colonial occupation and take its hand out of the back pocket of the American taxpayer. If we have $40 million to give away, then give it to the needy in this country.

As I'm sure you are aware, the amount of money the U.S. gives to israel's enemies (the Arab countries) is considerably more than it gives to Israel. Do you also feel we should cut all of that aid as well?

As I'm sure you are aware, the amount of money the U.S. gives to israel's enemies (the Arab countries) is considerably more than it gives to Israel. Do you also feel we should cut all of that aid as well?

Exactly.  BTW, how many Arab countries do you count in that list?

Exactly.  BTW, how many Arab countries do you count in that list?

Well, there a few countries where people may disagree if they're Arab or not. So IMO, you should go by what countries themselves say about it. I use the list of members of the Arab League-- they say there are 22 Arab countries.

As to cutting off aid, I don't think its productive to generalize-- those countries are so different. Rather, it should be evaluated on a "case by case" basis.

As to cutting off aid, I don't think its productive to generalize-- those countries are so different. Rather, it should be evaluated on a "case by case" basis.

One of the largest recipients of U.S. aid in the Arab world is Egypt. And many people may not be aware of it, but fairly recently the U.S. tried to meddle in Egypt's internal affairs (something we do all too often). We tried to force the Egyptians to change their government! (Again, we've done that sort of thing soooo many times before). So-- we threatened to cut off military aid unless they kow-towed to our wishes. And, if memory serves-- we started to do it-- there was a small shipmento f advanced fighter planes that they were supposed to get-- we stopped the delivery. (We later our assinie mistake and relented).

Very stupid of us. Not only because we were trying to coerce another country by threats, but also because our totally  a$$holic State Dept. failed to realize that if we stopped arming them, they could go back to their previous suppliers-- Russia (then the USSR).

Well DUH!

Not surprisingly, the  Egyptian were really pissed off at us-- as well they should be! And then they started talking to the Russians about obtaining arms from them!

Of course there were YUGE protests in Egypt-- aimed at Pres. Obama, Sec'y of State Clinton, and the US ambassador Anne Patterson. 

Here's what our interfering in Egypt's internal affairs created.  (scroll down)

1 of M ,

You seem to be missing the point . Hamas is supposed to be using funds to rebuild Gaza , but instead they are spending money on tunnels into Israel , an act of war .

1 of M ,

You seem to be missing the point . Hamas is supposed to be using funds to rebuild Gaza , but instead they are spending money on tunnels into Israel , an act of war .

Give them their land back and then they won't have to resist occupation by building tunnels and we can keep our money in our pockets.

They don't want their land . They only want to make sure the jews don't have any . Its pure anti-semitism  . They can't even be bothered to rebuild to help their own people , When is Hamas going to have another election ? Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen !

They don't want their land . They only want to make sure the jews don't have any .

It's the other way around. Israel is the one trying to make sure the Palestinians have no viable state.

trying to make sure the Palestinians have no viable state.

They don't and they never will . They can't even choose one set of leaders . When Palestinians hold an "election" it inevitably results in mass murder of their opponents . "Democracy" is simply not their way .

BTW Israel has already deserted the stretch of land called the Gaza strip . Hamas promptly began firing rockets at Israel as "thanks" .

BTW Israel has already deserted the stretch of land called the Gaza strip . Hamas promptly began firing rockets at Israel as "thanks" 

Creating an open air prison under the control of Israel is not independence. I'm sure Israel will receive all the gratitude due a colonial master until the Palestinians are free.

They are already free to kill each other and do all the smuggling they can manage with no open borders with BOTH of their neighbors ... Did you forget about the border with Egypt ? Yes you did . How convenient ...

What do we learn from that ? The neighbors ALL hate Hamas . Why do you think that is ?

Israel occupies the Palestinian territories, not Egypt. And what the neighbors think about Hamas is irrelevant. The Palestinians have the right to be free of occupation.

Israel occupies the Palestinian territories

Not the Gaza strip . Not the West Bank either . Where do you get your delusions from ?!

What the neighbors think about Hamas is essential ! It goes towards demonstrating how obnoxious the Gazans are ...

Control is occupation according to international law. And if being obnoxious is relevant to rights then Israel's obnoxious behavior should have negated its rights a long time ago.

Obnoxious behavior is going to someone's seed and shitting all over it with dissimulative discussion and not addressing the main issue outlined in the article. If you want to talk about your issues, write your own article.

Hamas is a terrorist state, ruling Gaza and stealing aid intended to rebuild the territory. They are taking tens of millions of dollars out of the hands of the Gazan citizens who need to rebuild their homes and lives, and are building terror tunnels. Gaza remains a shambles because of Hamas. And you side with a terrorist organization. 

Feels good, huh?

Again, I responded to something stated in your article and it's fair game. My other comments are in response to comments made to me. And yes it feels good to defend and occupied people against a colonial occupation.

Look at a map of the Middle East. Let me know when you understand what colonialism really means.

Control is occupation according to international law.

According to what International Law? (Link please).

1ofmany thinks that when Israel closes the border with Gaza it is occupation, but when Egypt does the exact same thing it is not occupation. What am I missing here?

You ask what are you missing? The same thing Israel misses when it shuts its eyes.

eccpalestine

1 of a few ,

Thanks for posting where you get your disinformation from . What an extremely 1-sided site !

Thanks for posting where you get your disinformation from . What an extremely 1-sided site !

Every argument has two sides. You post your one-sided point of view; I post mine. 

And yet, I posted an article from a rather unbiased site. You took your laser out and searched for a tidbit to latch your specious argument on to, and ran. You ignored the suffering of the Gazan people at the hands of Hamas, who is setting them up for more misery, while stealing what resources were intended for them to rebuild their homes and infrastructure. But no, you remain undeterred. You will hold Israel responsible for Hamas stealing from the people. You will hold Hamas harmless for squandering millions to build terrorist infrastructure.

You support terrorism. You sleep at night, because Jews are being murdered by the terrorists.

I get it.

And yet, I posted an article from a rather unbiased site. You took your laser out and searched for a tidbit to latch your specious argument on to, and ran. You ignored the suffering of the Gazan people at the hands of Hamas, who is setting them up for more misery, while stealing what resources were intended for them to rebuild their homes and infrastructure. But no, you remain undeterred. You will hold Israel responsible for Hamas stealing from the people. You will hold Hamas harmless for squandering millions to build terrorist infrastructure.

You support terrorism. You sleep at night, because Jews are being murdered by the terrorists.

I get it.

No, actually you don't get it at all. From your perspective, this is all about the threat to Israel and how Gazans would be much better off if they lived peacefully (without Hamas) crammed onto a bantustan controlled by Israel. Israel's interest here (and by extension yours) is to steal Palestinian land and keep it. To that end, Israel helped create Hamas as a counterbalance to Fatah in the hopes of creating discord among Palestinians to frustrate an occupied people's efforts to resist occupation. Israel furthers that end by expanding the settlements on the West Bank so that it will be virtually impossible to create a viable Palestinian state. This plan is as transparent as your faux concern for the wellbeing of Gazans who would not be in this situation if they had not been pushed off their land in the first place. 

To be clear, I don't give a rat's ass about how Hamas administers a damn bantustan. I want the bantustan arrangement terminated! If you want peace, then give these people justice or dodge bullets and rockets to the end of time.

If you want peace, then give these people justice or dodge bullets and rockets to the end of time.

They don't want justice . Committing suicide-by-cop is merely the preferred method of birth control for Gazans ...

Let's address some of your arguments, 1ofmany:

"From your perspective, this is all about the threat to Israel and how Gazans would be much better off if they lived peacefully (without Hamas) crammed onto a bantustan controlled by Israel."

They DID live peacefully before Hamas. There were no blockades, crossing the borders with Israel and Egypt were no different than crossing between the USA and Canada, and many Gazans had good paying jobs in Israel. I have read comments from Gazans who said they were happy then, could afford whatever were their needs and wants. Eventually, even the Jewish settlements in Gaza were (forcibly by their own IDF) vacated so that Gaza would be Judenfrei. Imports and exports were no different than would be between any two neighbouring states. There was self-determination and no control by Israel or Egypt other than what is normal between neighbouring states. So what happened? What did Israel do to change that?

"Israel's interest here (and by extension yours) is to steal Palestinian land and keep it."

Au contraire, the Israelis VACATED Gaza as I stated above.

"To that end, Israel helped create Hamas as a counterbalance to Fatah in the hopes of creating discord among Palestinians to frustrate an occupied people's efforts to resist occupation."

Do you have proof of that? Please provide an UNBIASED source.

"Israel furthers that end by expanding the settlements on the West Bank so that it will be virtually impossible to create a viable Palestinian state."

When peace negotiations began there were no (or very very few) settlements, so minor land swaps would be easy. But the intransigence of the Palestinians in refusing to negotiate in good faith over the decades is their own fault. Israel continued to make concessions to reach a deal, to get the Palestinians to come to the table in good faith - release of terrorists with blood on their hands, giving up land, an 11 moratorium on settlement building, but the stonewalling was on the part of the Palestinians. They are and have always been their own worst enemies, starting with (as Abbas has admitted publicly) they made a big mistake by not accepting Partition.

"To be clear, I don't give a rat's ass about how Hamas administers a damn bantustan."

Why would you?  You obviously support them, even no matter how they treat their own citizens. Do you send them donations?

"If you want peace, then give these people justice or dodge bullets and rockets to the end of time."

Jews have survived for thousands of years through pogroms and anti-Semitic acts and the Holocaust and similar attempts to annihilate or subjugate them so I'm sure they'll have no trouble surviving your threats.

I guess you have a problem in dealing with truths, eh 1ofmany?

Come on, 1ofmany, there are lots of pro-Palestinian propaganda web sites for you to choose from. You MUST be able to find answers for my replies to your comments among them. If you haven't tried American Veteran or Stormfront yet you know you can always rely on them to give you the kinds of information you've been posting.

Actually what I thought was American Veteran is probably Veterans Today - mistook the name cause I don't read trash.

"To that end, Israel helped create Hamas as a counterbalance to Fatah in the hopes of creating discord among Palestinians to frustrate an occupied people's efforts to resist occupation."

Do you have proof of that? Please provide an UNBIASED source.

How about this one?

washingtonpost

Creating an open air prison under the control of Israel 

I've always thought of a prison as a place where people are imprisoned-- i.e. can't leave. 

But did you know-- that Gaza borders two countries?

So even if their border with israel were to be sealed air-tight, they'd still have the border with Egypt-- their "fellow Arabs". 

So how is that a prison? (Unless by "prison" you mean an area enclosed on one side but open on the other? Where inmates can't possibly escape on one side-- but they are free to come and go as they wish on the other side?

The currency in Gaza is the Israeli shekel. Goods enter Gaza only with Israel's permission. Israel has total control of access to Gaza by both air and by sea. Israel controls the Palestinian ID cards that allow Palestinians to travel by land. Israel can and does prohibit Gazans from leaving Gaza and prohibits anybody from entering it as it sees fit. Israel enters Gaza whenever it feels like it and arrests or kills anybody it chooses. The fact that Israel doesn't choose to involve itself in the day to day operation of Gaza is completely irrelevant to the fact that it is completely under Israel's thumb. It is no more independent than the self-governing bantustans were in racist south Africa. Israel's occupation and control over Gaza has long been recognized by the UN.

I assume you don't agree that there is any reason for Israel to maintain such control to protect itself from a nation whose very desire, education and training, is codified in its constitution to destroy Israel and kill its citizens. Why don't you go to Gaza and help Hamas dig a tunnel?

I assume you don't agree that there is any reason for Israel to maintain such control to protect itself from a nation whose very desire, education and training, is codified in its constitution to destroy Israel and kill its citizens. Why don't you go to Gaza and help Hamas dig a tunnel?

I agree that Israel can protect itself if you agree that Palestinians can resist occupation. And the only tunnel I'm going to dig is the one straight through Israel's bullshit.

Well, at least THAT'S a step in the right direction. A concession. Something the Palestinians refuse to do to advance peace talks.

Well, at least THAT'S a step in the right direction. A concession. Something the Palestinians refuse to do to advance peace talks.

But Israel will not concede the Palestinian right to resist or return so I see no prospect for peace.

You cannot predict the outcome of negotiations. The Palestinians refuse to negotiate. As such the status quo will endure. Right, wrong or indifferent, the Palestinians have the ability to change the facts on the ground by negotiating for peace.

They have refused every overture, whether it be direct, or by various groups.

Israel will not concede the Palestinian right to resist or return

Launching rockets  is not a political act . It is an act of war . The same for building invasive tunnels , then kidnapping Israeli citizens .

Launching rockets  is not a political act . It is an act of war . The same for building invasive tunnels , then kidnapping Israeli citizens .

What good are words when they fall on ears as deaf as yours?  

Well, when the Arabs attacked Israel, they lost. When the Palestinians carry out their intifadas and terrorism, they lose. When I was a little kid one of the first adages I learned was:

"Winners keepers, losers weepers."

Then I grew up. It's about time the Palestinians did.

Well, when the Arabs attacked Israel, they lost. When the Palestinians carry out their intifadas and terrorism, they lose. When I was a little kid one of the first adages I learned was:

"Winners keepers, losers weepers." 

Then I grew up. It's about time the Palestinians did.

One adage I learned was "what goes around comes around." Wait for it because it's coming back.

Okay, then when Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah and all other Israel-haters achieve success in destroying Israel you can pass out candy and dance in the streets with the rest of them.

Okay, then when Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah and all other Israel-haters achieve success in destroying Israel you can pass out candy and dance in the streets with the rest of them.

It's always a zero sum game with you. I'd be happy if Israel would renounce Zionism, welcome the Palestinians home, and share the land like the civilized people they claim to be. But you want endless warfare until both sides are dead. The dead don't dance.

You are well aware that should Israel open the gates to the refugees the Jews would be or soon become greatly outnumbered, and as it is a true democracy, unlike so many of its neighbours, it would cease being what it was meant to be, a homeland for the Jews, a Jewish homeland - the one place in the world where the word "Jew" would not be used as a pejorative.  If what you mean is that the Muslims/Palestinians who already live there have equal rights with Jews, that is already the case.

One adage I learned was "what goes around comes around." Wait for it because it's coming back.

Correct. But not once-- it comes back at regular intervals.

Hams smuggles rockets into Gaza from tunnels to Egypt.

About every two years  it is (I believe) Hamas starts a war in order to defeat Israel. (Which shows you how stuid they are-- taking n one f the most powerful militaries in the world and trying to defeat it!).

They start firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets (On rare occasions they fire at the israli military, but that very rare). Eventually Isral gets tired of it, and fights back.

But the outcome of the war the Gazans start is always the same-- they get their asses kiceked really badly-- what goes around finally comes around.

So-- the gazans are "peaceful" (thy need the time to rebuild their arsenal).

Then they start firing rockets again, israel fights back-- and again, what they started comes back.

What's weird is is how stupid they are-- because they never win. They are very, very slow learners!

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND - THE CYCLE OF LIFE IN GAZA

. . . What's weird is is how stupid they are-- because they never win. They are very, very slow learners! . . .

What's really stupid is pushing somebody off their land, make them violently angry, watch their population grow at a greater rate than yours, and know that they're supported by a billion others who hate you. And then think that somehow this is all going to work out because, right now, they can't do anything about it.

What's weird is is how stupid they are-- because they never win. They are very, very slow learners!

Agreed!  The so-called Palestians are easily duped and not very bright. How many nobel winners do they claim?  We all know the nobel is one of the few accurate and objective measures of intelligence.

We all know the nobel is one of the few accurate and objective measures of intelligence.

Actually I think it measures something else. I think it is really a measure of a person's values- - what they consider to be important in life. Winners have have to put a lot of time and effort in to doing something that creates something-- contributes to humanity. And of curse that indicates what their value are-- what they feel is important. There are a lot of intelligent people who don't contribute anything positive to humanity-- or are even a negative force.

But, for example, look at what someone like  Malala has done! A truly inspiring person, and very wise for her years. Actually, listening to her speak its obvious she's intelligent-- but so many intelligent people lack something she has-- her values!

 Israel can and does prohibit Gazans from leaving Gaza

Can you blame them?

BTW Israel has already deserted the stretch of land called the Gaza strip 

Truth!  And froze the so-called peace process at the same time and beautifully halted the prospects for a so-called palestinian state! (Those snakes cannot be trusted and don't deserve a state).

Here is what Dov Weissglass, Sharon's top advisor had to say in 2004:  

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. That is exactly what happened. You know, the term `peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

Likud looks at the occupied territories as Lebensraum...

Likud does not want a 2 state solution, they want to absorb the occupied territories of the West Bank as a permanent part of Israel, to annex it and the constant expansion of illegal settlements is glaring proof of that. Bibi and Likud learned their lessons well from history of 80 years ago.

The only question is that after the have absorbed, annexed, the current occupied territories completely, what country will the look to occupy next? I doubt they'll be satisfied with just owning the West Bank without wanting more Lebensraum. Eventually they'll want to expand even more.

You think exactly like a Nazi . Guess what . Israel gives up land for peace all the time . Want examples ? Of course not . You are too busy looking for Nazis . What a sick joke ...

Give them their land back

Who do you think rules Gaza? Who do you think owns the land there? To put it another way-- how much land does Israel own in Gaza-- land that you feel they must "give back"?

Yes, it had been occupied-- by the Ottoman Empire . Then by the Brits. Then by Egypt. Then by Israel. 

In fact, the Jews even built settlements in Gaza! You know-- those settlements that were supposed to be "a permanent obstacle to peace".

But then, in 2005, the occupation ended-- the Israelis pulled out of Gaza. Totally. Now there's not a single Jew in the entire place! And those settlements that were supposedly "a permanent obstacle to peace"? Well, they no longer exist. Bye, bye "permanent" settlements...

Gaza no longer has Egyptian nor Israeli rule-- it is now totally ruled by..the Palestinian terror group Hamas!

Who do you think rules Gaza? Who do you think owns the land there?

Gaza is Not independent. It is open air prison under the control of Israel the same way south African bantustans were under the control of South Africa. 

Gaza is Not independent. It is open air prison under the control of Israel

Nope. Hamas rules Gaza-- with an iron fist. They control everything that goes on there-- Israel does not.

And BTW, aprison is made so prisoners can't leave, Not true with gaza-- theyan leav when Egypt opens the border!

Nope. Hamas rules Gaza-- with an iron fist. They control everything that goes on there-- Israel does not

As I said earlier, Israel controls Gaza and that is not altered by the fact that it leaves the day to day running of Gaza to Hamas. Gaza is no more independent than a bantustan was in South Africa. 

Whose fault is the level of control that Israel maintains. Before Hamas took over there was freedom of travel, Gazans held good jobs in Israel, no sea blockade, but then the terrorist organization Hamas took over and started firing rockets into Israel.  So whose fault is the level of control that Israel is now FORCED to maintain. Where is the criticism of Egypt that ALSO blocks the savages from invading their country and strictly controls what and who goes in and out. Your focus only on Israel makes your motive well known to everyone.

Whose fault is the level of control that Israel maintains. Before Hamas took over there was freedom of travel, Gazans held good jobs in Israel, no sea blockade, but then the terrorist organization Hamas took over and started firing rockets into Israel.  So whose fault is the level of control that Israel is now FORCED to maintain. 

Whose fault is it that Gazans are FORCED to fight to end an occupation of their land. There will be resistance as long as there is occupation.

As I said, before Hamas took over, the border between Israel and Gaza was no different than the border between Canada and the USA. If Canada starts firing missiles and rockets into the USA, I believe you will see no different reaction from the USA than exists between Israel and Gaza - but please don't insult my intelligence by saying there was Israeli occupation BEFORE Hamas took over. Even the Israelis who had been settled there vacated Gaza before Hamas took over, and I repeat since you seem to have missed it, many Gazans had good jobs in Israel and were free to cross the border. You also ignore Egypt's need to blockade the Gazans, so you have not heard about the infiltration of Gazan terrorists into the Sinai, killing Egyptian soldiers.

Who do you think rules Gaza?

Israel. From the outside (unless they want to invade from time to time), but they own and control it completely.

Your comment is worded in such a biased way, it's as if Israelis sit around and say, "Hey, let's have some fun today, we'll go invade Gaza", when you know damn well that Israel's actions against Gaza are defensive, to stop the rockets and missiles from being fired from Gaza into Israeli mostly civilian areas.

I will not discuss this issue with you.

"I will not discuss this issue with you."

Understood and agreed. 

Your comment is worded in such a biased way, it's as if Israelis sit around and say, "Hey, let's have some fun today, we'll go invade Gaza", when you know damn well that Israel's actions against Gaza are defensive, to stop the rockets and missiles from being fired from Gaza into Israeli mostly civilian areas.

I bet Hitler said "it's not as if I enjoy killing Russians but I have to do it because they keep trying to expel my invasion force. I've repeatedly offered to let them surrender unconditionally so I can spare their miserable lives but they're just so unreasonable and stupid. Must I kill them all?

 I've repeatedly offered to let them surrender unconditionally

Do you have a link to back that up?

An opinion or hypothetical (and what he said was obviously hypothetical) does not require a link and constantly asking for one when you know that just makes you look bad. Just letting you know as a friend.

  I've repeatedly offered to let them surrender unconditionally

Do you have a link to back that up?

Hypothetical or not, comparing Israelis to Nazis is a sure sign of a vicious prejudice (I could get in trouble with Perrie if you use the exact words of what I mean).

What's the matter, Randy, you covered for your friend 1ofmany with respect to Krishna's comment, why can't you cover for her on mine?

I respond to the comments that I choose to respond to. Interactions that I already know where they lead do not interest me.

Hypothetical or not, comparing Israelis to Nazis is a sure sign of a vicious prejudice (I could get in trouble with Perrie if you use the exact words of what I mean).

Acting like NAZIs is an even clearer sign of a vicious prejudice. If Zionists don't like being compared to NAZIs, then STOP ACTING LIKE THEM!

US DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Defining Anti-Semitism

Fact Sheet

SPECIAL ENVOY TO MONITOR AND COMBAT ANTI-SEMITISM

Washington, DC

June 8, 2010

   

Thank you, 1ofmany. Your government has identified what you are, and now I'm through with this article. I don't mix with people like you.

Thank you, 1ofmany. Your government has identified what you are, and now I'm through with this article. I don't mix with people like you.

Bye. If you need some help getting Comment removed for CoC violation [ph] on the way out, then let me know.

• • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

But --

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic."

As I'm sure you're equally aware, unlike the poor Arab recipients of foreign aid, Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world (18 out of 188). So yes cut off every country with a standard of living as high as Israelis and/or is engaged in colonial occupation.

As I'm sure you're equally aware, unlike the poor Arab recipients of foreign aid, Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world (18 out of 188). So yes cut off every country with a standard of living as high as Israelis and/or is engaged in colonial occupation.

Are you by any chance aware of the fact that there are two types of aid-- economic, and military?

I believe, Krishna, that 1ofmany has clearly displayed an ignorance of everything except Palestinian propaganda. She can't possibly be aware that it's been many years since Israel received economic aid, and it's no use wasting your time explaining the benefits America gets back from the military aid it provides Israel and the joint development efforts of the two countries. Those things are not included in Palestinian propaganda.

Are you by any chance aware of the fact that there are two types of aid-- economic, and military?

The distinction is irrelevant to me. My point is that Israel is a prosperous country and we don't need to subsidize it at all. Specifically, they can buy their own damn weapons.

 Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world

why d you think that is?

Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world

why d you think that is?

Because we've subsidized them to the tune of $100 billion. 

Yup.

Because we've subsidized them to the tune of $100 billion

Nope-- we did not subsidize them. Actually that's fairly common misconception.

I suppose if we gave them all that economic aid you call call it subsidizing them. But we didn't.

Because we've subsidized them to the tune of $100 billion

Nope-- we did not subsidize them. Actually that's fairly common misconception.

I suppose if we gave them all that economic aid you call call it subsidizing them. But we didn't.

My mistake . . . looks like was in excess of $120 billion.

en.wikipedia

What's an extra $20 Billion between "friends"?

Thanks for the wiki link . What do we learn from it ? The US considers Israel to be a major ally . But it considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization . There are reasons for that conclusion . If you give support to Hamas you may end up being investigated as a terrorist sympathizer . Enjoy the consequences of that !

 Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world

Why do you think that is?

Look at a map of the Middle East. Let me know when you understand what colonialism really means.

My definition is the same as the one in the dictionary. If you're unable to apply the definition to the occupied territories,  then let me know and I'll try and explain it for you.

You are well aware that should Israel open the gates to the refugees the Jews would be or soon become greatly outnumbered, and as it is a true democracy, unlike so many of its neighbours, it would cease being what it was meant to be a homeland for the Jews . . .

There is no entitlement to a Jewish homeland created by displacing somebody else. This is Just plain wrong. Sooner or later, one way or another, Zionism will end. To me, it would be better to transition peacefully but you prefer a violent path to the same end point.

You seem to forget that Jews lived in that land for thousands of years, long before Islam started. As well, much land was purchased by the Rothschilds and others from Arab landowners. So what right have you to say that it displaces someone else? You're so unhappy and committed about that, then give your home to Kavika - don't be a hypocrite.

. . . So what right have you to say that it displaces someone else? You're so unhappy and committed about that, then give your home to Kavika - don't be a hypocrite.

Kavika lives here and is a citizen just like every other Native American. I'm suggesting that Israel do the same thing. Nothing hypocritical about it.

And other (non-Jewish) people lived there for thousands of years too. Long before Joshua. So?

And other (non-Jewish) people lived there for thousands of years too. Long before Joshua. 

True. And that's still the situation today. The Jews have gotten part of their country back. And the other (non-Jewish people control the rest of the area.

In fact, those other people (the Arabs) now have 21 countries-- and the Jews have a country too! 

MAP: Israel is shown in red, Muslim countries in green, other infidel areas in yellow:

(I had problems uploading a clear image-- click HERE to see it better).

(And that's what the Arabs are really pissed off about-- they don't like the fact that there's even one tiny kufar (non-Muslim, "infidel") country there-- they want a Middle-east that totally judenfrei!)

You know damned well I was talking about where Israel is today. Non-Jewish people lived where Israel is today (and no Jews did) and the Jews of the time slaughtered them and took their land because their god told them he was giving the land these other people lived on to them after 40 years in the desert following a lost Moses around (which was actually time spent building and training a conquering army to steal land). And all they had to do was to kill them all. Every man woman and child, except for those they took as slaves. The idea that the area where Israel is has always been Jewish is a sad, sick, bloody joke. The took it away by war from those who lived there thousands of years ago because their "god" told them it was now theirs. And all the had to do was to murder the people already there.

Just like ever other major religion their hands and indeed entire bodies, are soaked with the blood of innocent men, women and children and the stain, like the bloodshed and stains caused by the other two major religions, can not and will not ever be cleaned. Ever.

You know damned well I was talking about where Israel is today.

That teeny-weeny red area on the map is where israel is today. And its also part of the area of the what was the Kingdom of Israel Non-Jewish people lived back ten. (Its actually smaller).

and no Jews did

Link?

(Save your time-- you won't find one. Numerous archaeological finds show the presence of Jews there in ancient times.)  

You know damned well I was talking about where Israel is today.

That teeny-weeny red area on the map is where israel is today. And its also part of the area of the what was the Kingdom of Israel Non-Jewish people lived back ten. (Its actually smaller).

and no Jews did

Link?

(Save your time-- you won't find one. Numerous archaeological finds show the presence of Jews there in ancient times. Oh,  & BTW, via use of radio-carbon dating archaeologists can confirm the dates of the onjects they found down deep in the earth below the modern country of Israel).  

Uh huh. Whatever you say.

Whatever you say.

Link?

I agreed with you. Whatever you say must be true. What more do you want?

So 1ofmany's point was that since people other than Jews lived in those lands Jews have no right to be there. At least that's what her attitude will lead to, but that's what she wants - Judenfrei  (where have I heard that word before?) Judenfrei because that is exactly what any intelligent person would realize would be the end result.

So 1ofmany's point was that since people other than Jews lived in those lands Jews have no right to be there.

I said no right to a Jewish dominated state. Other people manage to live places without having to dominate it. Why can't you?

Other people manage to live places without having to dominate it. Why can't you?

In the Arab middle east that is the norm . They persecute all other belief systems ... That's the reason any jews from that region have moved to Israel many decades ago ... somewhere around 1 million middle eastern jews left their homes in the Arab countries & moved to Israel . Were you planning on reimbursing those jews for their financial losses ?

In the Arab middle east that is the norm . They persecute all other belief systems 

So does Trump and he lives here. But you're right... killing each other over exclusive use of the land is much better.

So does Trump and he lives here. But you're right... killing each other over exclusive use of the land is much better.

Logic is not your strong suit I see . What a complete waste of bytes ...

So does Trump and he lives here. But you're right... killing each other over exclusive use of the land is much better.

Logic is not your strong suit I see . What a complete waste of bytes ...

Why would I employ logic to talk to a rabbit? 

Why would you bother mentioning Donald Trump ? I'm guessing you thought it would offend me . If so you need something better [worse?] than that ...

Why would you bother mentioning Donald Trump ? I'm guessing you thought it would offend me . If so you need something better [worse?] than that ...

You said that persecution for religious beliefs was the norm in the Middle East. I was pointing out that it's a norm for some people here too and used Trump as an example. I didn't make the comparison to offend you since I'm unaware of any relationship you have to Trump but, if I were trying to be offensive, I'd be much more direct about it so you wouldn't have to wonder.

I said no right to a Jewish dominated state. Other people manage to live places without having to dominate it. Why can't you?

There are 21 Arab states-- name the one that are not Arab-dominated? 

Well, I make it easy for you-- just name a few-- maybe 4 or 5.

I said no right to a Jewish dominated state. Other people manage to live places without having to dominate it. Why can't you?

There are 21 Arab states-- name the one that are not Arab-dominated? 

Well, I make it easy for you-- just name a few-- maybe 4 or 5.

So because Arab states are Arab dominated that means to you that Jews have an inherent right to take somebody else's land and dominate it too? Well I'll make my position simple as well. Your view strikes me as naked colonialism. Colonialism is a relic of the 19th century and an abomination that the world would be better off without. Most of the world has come to that conclusion already. 

Colonialism is a relic of the 19th century and an abomination

And yet, virtually the entire Arab world has benefitted from that colonialism.

Britain created new countries and installed Saudi families all over the Middle East. Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq... all part of the colonial British kingdom. You have no problem with that, do you?

Israel was created in the same manner. But that's different, right? Sure it is.

Where would you be without employing double standards?

Wasn't Israel built with the blessing of the United Nations?

jewishvirtuallibrary

Wasn't Israel built with the blessing of the United Nations?

What the UN approved was a two state solution: one half for Jews; the other for the Palestinians. The Jews basically took all of it by force and pushed the Palestinians onto bantustans. The UN later approved Resolution 194, expressing the view that the Palestinians should be allowed to return to their homes in what was then Israel. As a condition for admittance to the UN, Israel promised to abide by the resolution then reversed position once admitted. 

The Jews basically took all of it by force and pushed the Palestinians onto bantustans.

This is why your opinion is not worth shit.

The utter dissimulation; the complete and utter attempt to revise history.

Have a nice day. Have a nice life. 

Enjoy your world, whatever world that may be.

If you'd like to continue, you're going to need to acknowledge the utter falsity of your statement.

This is why your opinion is not worth shit.

The utter dissimulation; the complete and utter attempt to revise history.

Have a nice day. Have a nice life. 

Enjoy your world, whatever world that may be.

If you'd like to continue, you're going to need to acknowledge the utter falsity of your statement.

You really need to grow up and recognize that people can have views that differ from yours. 

"The Jews basically took all of it by force and pushed the Palestinians onto bantustans."

Of course you are aware that the "JEWS" did not start those wars, and their actions were in defence of the attempt by the Arabs to push them into the sea.  I think that's kind of another way of looking at it, but as you've said, there can be two views of the situation. Only problem is that one is right and yours is wrong.

Colonialism is a relic of the 19th century and an abomination

And yet, virtually the entire Arab world has benefitted from that colonialism.

Britain created new countries and installed Saudi families all over the Middle East. Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq... all part of the colonial British kingdom. You have no problem with that, do you?

Israel was created in the same manner. But that's different, right? Sure it is.

Where would you be without employing double standards?

I'm sure some people benefited from slavery but it wasn't the slaves. Same goes for colonialism. The benefit that the Arabs received was being free from their colonial masters, not being subjugated to them. The creation of Israel has nothing to do with liberating anybody; quite the contrary because it placed the indigenous Palestinians under the colonial heel of Zionists. My position is completely consistent and that is END COLONIALISM!

"Why can't you?"

Me? I'm not an Israeli, and I live in a country where I am one of an infinitesmal minority - and I don't mind it at all, even though I don't have the full rights of a citizen.

"Why can't you?"

Me? I'm not an Israeli, and I live in a country where I am one of an infinitesmal minority - and I don't mind it at all, even though I don't have the full rights of a citizen.

"You" was figurative not literal. If you can do it so can the Israelis just as Jews do all over the world.

So you want Jews to be wanderers, like the plant, right? They should not have one tiny sliver of land in the whole world where, as I said before, the word "Jew" was not a pejorative. Why do I NOT wonder what kind of a person you are?

I said I didn't have the full rights of a citizen, but why shouldn't I? I'm deprived of certain things, but why should I be? If I lived in Canada I would have full rights, being a Canadian citizen. The Palestinians who live in Israel are not deprived of anything, and according to polls taken, would rather live there than in any Arab country.

But why is it that you do not agree that the Jews should have a homeland?

. . . But why is it that you do not agree that the Jews should have a homeland?

Why do you think the need for a Jewish homeland justifies depriving somebody else of theirs?

There are plenty of Arab countries that could take in the Gazans if they wanted to ... but they don't . That's because the Gazans have proved themselves to be treacherous dogs on many past occasions . NO NEIGHBORS TRUST THEM ENOUGH TO TAKE THEM IN !

There are plenty of Arab countries that could take in the Gazans if they wanted to ... but they don't . That's because the Gazans have proved themselves to be treacherous dogs on many past occasions . NO NEIGHBORS TRUST THEM ENOUGH TO TAKE THEM IN !

The Arab countries don't have to house Palestinians so Zionists can sit comfortably on stolen land. Instead, they support the Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation. And as for your view that Palestinians are treacherous dogs that nobody wants, I'm sure somebody could make the same statement about Jews . . . which, other than being a gratuitous insult, has no bearing on the issue.

I'm sure somebody could make the same statement about Jews

That's been done for centuries in western Europe as well as the Arab world . That's why the need for a jewish homeland .

I'm sure somebody could make the same statement about Jews

That's been done for centuries in western Europe as well as the Arab world . That's why the need for a jewish homeland .

Yes I know and it's as loathsome when applied to Palestinians as it was when applied to Jews. Jews may want a homeland but nobody's giving up their homeland so Jews can have one. How can a people who were themselves ejected from their homeland be so callous as to do the same thing to somebody else? Absolutely deplorable!

"Why do you think the need for a Jewish homeland justifies depriving somebody else of theirs?"

They weren't deprived of theirs. They were told by the invading Arab armies to leave and come back when the Jews were wiped out. As well, you keep forgetting that Jews have lived there for thousands of years. Who built the Temple of David? Martians?

They weren't deprived of theirs. They were told by the invading Arab armies to leave and come back when the Jews were wiped out. As well, you keep forgetting that Jews have lived there for thousands of years. Who built the Temple of David? Martians?

And you seem to forget that the Temple of David was destroyed 2000 years ago by the Romans. The Romans drove the Jews out of the land -- which began the Jewish diaspora -- and they did not return in significant numbers until the 20th century in the Zionist occupation that the Palestinians resist. The Muslim Dome of the Rock now stands on the site where the Temple of David once stood and it has been there 1300 years.

Plus with regard to Zionist mythology on the reason Palestinians left, its clear they intended to return. Preventing them from doing so deprived them of their land as has been long recognized by the UN.

and they did not return in significant numbers until the 20th century in the Zionist occupation that the Palestinians resist.

I know you don't react well to factual information, but Jews have lived continuously in Israel for thousands of years. There are synagogues throughout Israel, built in the 5th, 8th, 10th and 15th century. Safed, located in the Kineret region, was a thriving Jewish city during the Middle Ages. There is evidence of Jewish life and activity all through the millennia. 

In the early 20th century, Jews came to Israel, and developed land THAT THEY PURCHASED from the Arab Muslim owners. There, they developed an infrastructure that Arabs flocked to, because there were good jobs as a result.

You cannot erase continuous Jewish existence in Israel, as UNESCO continues to try. Like ISIS, UNESCO and the Palestinians and you continue your quest to erase Jews from their homeland.

Your narrative is a hateful one, and a false one. It is completely devoid of fact, and only spews hatred. Hatred will drag you down and make you slow. It will shorten your life, and affect the ones you love in a negative way.

I feel very bad for you, as every post you make becomes more and more desperate and hateful.

Try to have a nice day.

I know you don't react well to factual information, but Jews have lived continuously in Israel for thousands of years. There are synagogues throughout Israel, built in the 5th, 8th, 10th and 15th century. Safed, located in the Kineret region, was a thriving Jewish city during the Middle Ages. There is evidence of Jewish life and activity all through the millennia. In the early 20th century, Jews came to Israel, and developed land THAT THEY PURCHASED from the Arab Muslim owners. There, they developed an infrastructure that Arabs flocked to, because there were good jobs as a result.. . . Your narrative is a hateful one, and a false one. It is completely devoid of fact, and only spews hatred. Hatred will drag you down and make you slow. It will shorten your life, and affect the ones you love in a negative way.

I feel very bad for you, as every post you make becomes more and more desperate and hateful.

Nobody said Jews were eradicated from the area but the diaspora is a historical fact and one on which the Zionist desire to return is based . . . I note that one need not return if you didn't leave. The fact that Palestinians were pushed off their land and/or prevented from returning is well documented and is the basis for UN Resolution 194 which states:

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

You can drone on all you like about how hateful it is to disagree with your incessant justification of a moral abomination but it has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever. It's pathetic actually. Let me be clear. To me, Zionism is as loathsome as apartheid, colonialism, slavery, and racism. I will NEVER accept a view that I find morally bankrupt and utterly repugnant. 

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, 

That was 68 years ago. Those people are dead.

Now, you're going to explain to me why, for the first time in the history of the world, the children and grandchildren and all descendants of the people in question have the "right of return".

You're also going to explain to me why, if there is to be a state of "Palestine", why these ancestors of refugees will not resettle in their so very long awaited homeland of Palestine, but will insist upon resettling in Israel. 

And since you brought up abomination, let me give you a more clear example of what abomination actually is:

jpost

"refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, 

That was 68 years ago. Those people are dead.

The fact that Israel has dragged its feet for 68 years so that you can cynically claim that nobody's alive to return under the resolution only highlights how truly abominable the situation is and explains why many Palestinians resort to violence because they see no other alternative.

Now, you're going to explain to me why, for the first time in the history of the world, the children and grandchildren and all descendants of the people in question have the "right of return".

You're also going to explain to me why, if there is to be a state of "Palestine", why these ancestors of refugees will not resettle in their so very long awaited homeland of Palestine, but will insist upon resettling in Israel. 

Well you got that right. Homes are not just structures but rather places in which families live for generations. If you can claim that Jews can return to the land after 2000 years, then 68 years should be no barrier at all.

And since you brought up abomination, let me give you a more clear example of what abomination actually is.

Yes that's deplorable but understandable because they hate your guts after 68 years of occupation. I'm sure slaves hated their masters and prayed every night that God would strike them down in any way possible. And I bet, whenever that prayer was answered, the slaves sang and danced in celebration. That of course all stopped when they were freed. Free Palestine.

Why do you think the need for a Jewish homeland justifies depriving somebody else of theirs?

Exactly! Were I in the UN at the time I would have vetoed it as an idea that is manifestly unfair to the people living there and the beginning of a resistance movement that has ever right to fight to get their homes back from the UN created Israeli state as the French did to get their home back. I would have voted it down as not worth the future problems and wars and the just plain unfairness of it.

Judenfrei  ("free of Jews") or  Judenrein  ("clean of Jews") was a  Nazi term  to designate an area " cleansed " of Jewish presence during  The Holocaust . ^[1]

While  Judenfrei  referred merely to "freeing" an area of all of its Jewish inhabitants, the term  Judenrein  (literally "clean of Jews") was also used. This had the stronger connotation that any trace of Jewish blood had been removed as an impurity. ^[2]

Israel has many non-jewish citizens within its borders . The other middle eastern countries actively suppress other groups who are not Arabs .

As to cutting off aid, I don't think its productive to generalize-- those countries are so different. Rather, it should be evaluated on a "case by case" basis.

One of the largest recipients of U.S. aid in the Arab world is Egypt. And many people may not be aware of it, but fairly recently the U.S. tried to meddle in Egypt's internal affairs (something we do all too often). We tried to force the Egyptians to change their government! (Again, we've done that sort of thing soooo many times before). So-- we threatened to cut off military aid unless they kow-towed to our wishes. And, if memory serves-- we started to do it-- there was a small shipmento f advanced fighter planes that they were supposed to get-- we stopped the delivery. (We later our assinie mistake and relented).

Very stupid of us. Not only because we were trying to coerce another country by threats, but also because our totally  a$$holic State Dept. failed to realize that if we stopped arming them, they could go back to their previous suppliers-- Russia (then the USSR).

Well DUH!

Not surprisingly, the  Egyptian were really pissed off at us-- as well they should be! And then they started talking to the Russians about obtaining arms from them!

Of course there were YUGE protests in Egypt-- aimed at Pres. Obama, Sec'y of State Clinton, and the US ambassador Anne Patterson. 

Here's what our interfering in Egypt's internal affairs created.  (scroll down)