Israel's "Peace Plan" - Mitt Romney's "Self-Deportation" On Steroids
There Will Never* Be an Israel-Palestinian Peace Settlement
For many years:
Virtually every country in the world has condemned Israel's settlements in the West Bank.
They have all repeatedly voted to say so in the UN.
The US has also opposed Israel's settlements, but hasn't officially said so in the UN.
And Israel has said very clearly that the UN is virulently anti-Israel (true) and they pay it no mind.
A few days ago one small part of this formula finally changed when the US abstained from a UN vote condemning Israel's settlements on the West Bank. It was a parting blow from a lame-duck president who has been treated appallingly by Bibi Netanyahu, and the only surprising thing about it is that President Obama managed to hold his temper this long.
In any case, it's entirely meaningless: Donald Trump will take office soon and Netanyahu claims to consider the UN illegitimate on this subject anyway. So why has everyone gone ballistic over it? Sure, there's now an "official" UN resolution condemning the West Bank settlements, but what difference does that make? An "official" UN resolution is barely worth the minute or two it takes to read it. Even as a PR coup it doesn't amount to much.
The whole Israel charade long ago ceased to interest me. I can hardly pretend to be any kind of expert, but my take is that the last chance for any kind of peace deal ended in the 90s. The huge influx of conservative Jews from Russia after the fall of the Iron Curtain, followed by the Second Intifada, turned Israel permanently against any kind of settlement with the Palestinians.
Because of this, I never blamed George Bush for not trying to broker a peace deal and never blamed Obama for not succeeding. Even people who are sympathetic toward Obama often say that he handled the Middle East badly—and the Israel relationship particularly badly—but I simply don't see how he could have done any better. Netanyahu treated him with unconcealed contempt; was unapologetic about publicly undermining him; decided to ditch bipartisanship and openly team up with the Republican Party; and very plainly was never open to any kind of settlement at all. There is absolutely nothing Obama could have done to change that.
In any case, the following things are indisputably true:
- Israeli leaders will never* stop building in the West Bank. It would be electoral suicide.
- Israeli leaders will never give up the West Bank. It would be electoral suicide.
- Israeli leaders will never formally annex the West Bank. It would be electoral suicide.
In other words, nothing is going to happen. Period. Israel is going to keep things as they are, fight off world opinion forever, and hope that maybe over the course of several decades they can slowly get all the Palestinians in the West Bank to emigrate elsewhere. It's sort of like Mitt Romney's "self-deportation" on steroids.
And just in case you think this puts me on the side of the Arabs and Palestinians, forget it. To the extent that I stay even marginally on Israel's side, it's because the Arabs have acted even more abominably. They tried to invade Israel twice. They never cared a fig for the Palestinians except as a convenient poster child. (Jordan must have been the first country in history to lose territory in a war and be happy about it.) They never accepted Israel as legitimate, but for decades they've tacitly tolerated its existence because it gives them an easy way of stirring up demagogic hatreds that help prop up their own vicious regimes. The PLO was a murderous terrorist organization, and Hamas is worse. The intifadas were depraved and ruinous. And despite the fact that the Palestinians were clearly on the losing end of a war and needed to accept the best deal they could get, they remained delusional to the end. I've never bought into the revisionist history that Bill Clinton's Wye River/Camp David/Taba negotiations were unfair to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat was right to turn down the final proposal. He needed to accept it, and he probably knew it. He was just too cowardly to do it and too convinced that his own leadership was dependent on opposition to Israel.
Even in theory, there is literally no settlement that either the Israelis or the Palestinians would accept right now. This isn't necessarily true forever, but it will be true for a good long time. We should all stop wasting our time on the fantasy that peace talks have any value.
*All uses of never in this post are figurative. Never is a long time. But in this case, it means many decades at a minimum.
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In any case, the following things are indisputably true:
In other words, nothing is going to happen. Period. Israel is going to keep things as they are, fight off world opinion forever, and hope that maybe over the course of several decades they can slowly get all the Palestinians in the West Bank to emigrate elsewhere. It's sort of like Mitt Romney's "self-deportation" on steroids.
Kevin Drum is one of the most insightful pundits in America.
Kevin Drum is one of the most insightful pundits in America.
Well I was surprised when I read it. There are legitimate criticisms that can made, but its better than most of the things in the media.
This part is going to piss off a lot of the israel-bashers:
To the extent that I stay even marginally on Israel's side, it's because the Arabs have acted even more abominably.
Yup-- he got that right!
He is right, and we can expect "war" in Israel and Palestine every few years.
He is right, and we can expect "war" in Israel and Palestine every few years.
Unlike every other country in the Middle-East
N vote condemning Israel's settlements on the West Bank
Obama's resolution goes much farther than that, so already we know this is simply partisan propaganda, rather than an honest attempt to assess the situation.
t was a parting blow from a lame-duck president who has been treated appallingly by Bibi Netanyahu, and the only surprising thing about it is that President Obama managed to hold his temper this long.
Really? No mention of Obama calling Netanyahu names like chickenshit and actively interfering in Israel's election to try and defeat him? Oh yeah, it's a partisan hack like Kevin Drum who exists to canonize Obama.
West Bank settlements, but what difference does that mak?
Israeli citizens are now subject to ICC proceedings for living in the same house they have for generations.
er blamed George Bush for not trying to broker a peace deal and never blamed Obama for not succeeding
It's not the President's job to solve the situation. It is the President's job to not make the situation worse, expecially out petty spite, which Obama obviously did. Negotiated settlement is now pretty much impossible, thanks to Obama's resolution.
It's sort of like Mitt Romney's "self-deportation" on steroids.
The Obama plan is Operation Wetback on steroids. He's just Made international criminals of people whose families have lived in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem for hundreds of years.
This article is basically a piece of shit that doesn't even try to get the basic facts straight. .
Israel doesn't care about the UN resolutions. If they did they would have stopped with the settlements many years ago.
I think Kevin Drum is exactly right. Israel cannot remove settlements or even stop building new ones because if they did the politicians would be out of office in the next election.
They'll just keep having these little wars every few years, hoping that all the Palestinians just give up and leave.
Israel doesn't care about the UN resolutions. If they did they would have stopped with the settlements many years ago.
Had you any knowledge of what those resolutions contained, you'd understand the situation, without needing to blindly follow the ideologies of your Chosen candidate. Israel, up to now, has indeed cared about the resolutions. As of now, we can no longer be sure, can we...
I think Kevin Drum is exactly right. Israel cannot remove settlements or even stop building new ones because if they did the politicians would be out of office in the next election.
Watch.
They'll just keep having these little wars every few years, hoping that all the Palestinians just give up and leave.
Israel only retaliates. They do not initiate military action against the Palestinians unless they are engaged.
"They'll just keep having these little wars every few years, hoping that all the Palestinians just give up and leave."
No way the Palestinians will leave as long as the western countries keep supporting their terrorists with "humanitarian aid", and UNRWA keeps supporting the 2nd, 3rd, 4th....to infinity generations of the original Palestinian "refugees".
Never on this planet, before or after, have any "refugees" been maintained in this way - one might think it is for the purpose of punishing the Jews for the desire to return to the lands that were theirs historically (or was the Temple of David built by Buddhists?)
"They'll just keep having these little wars every few years, hoping that all the Palestinians just give up and leave."
No way the Palestinians will leave as long as the western countries keep supporting their terrorists with "humanitarian aid", and UNRWA keeps supporting the 2nd, 3rd, 4th....to infinity generations of the original Palestinian "refugees".
Here's an interesting bit of trivia-- for years the Palestinians received more aid percapita than any other country in the world! Think about thatj-- if you seen those pictures of starving African countries where people are literally starving to death-- they received a lot less than the palestinians.
Yeah and we give Israel more than all of sub Sahara africa put together even though Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
We could save some money by cutting off funding to the Palestinian terrorists.
Yeah and we give Israel more than all of sub Sahara africa put together even though Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world
Are you aware of the fact that there's two categories of aid: regular economic aid-- and military aid?
No way the Palestinians will leave as long as the western countries keep supporting their terrorists with "humanitarian aid", and UNRWA keeps supporting the 2nd, 3rd, 4th....to infinity generations of the original Palestinian "refugees".
And there's another reason as well.
many people speak of the Israeli "blockade" as if Gaza only bordered one country. But in fact it borders Egypt as well.
So if Gazans wanted to leave, they should be able to leave theough the Egyptian border-- no problem. But their Egyptian brothers have secured that border so Gazans can't leave. (I'm sure Some of the israel-bashers will find a way to spin this & blame Iisrael for Egypt's actions...)
Israel doesn't care about the UN resolutions.
Thank goodness!
The U.S. doesn't have to worry about those, because the system is rigged in our favour (security council-- actually it rigged in favour of only 5 countries).
But I wonder-- if a resolution that we didn't like was passed against the U.S.- would we follow it? (We're such hypocrites-- because we know it can't happen due to our veto, so we can afford to get all self righteous about it).
Israel doesn't care about the UN resolutions.
Thank goodness!
The U.S. doesn't have to worry about those, because the system is rigged in our favour (security council-- actually it rigged in favour of only 5 countries).
But I wonder-- if a resolution that we didn't like was passed against the U.S.- would we follow it? (We're such hypocrites-- because we know it can't happen due to our veto, so we can afford to get all self righteous about it).
There is no peace process. Boycott Israel!
No can do! It's all about the BDS buycott. Time to restock the soda stream.
BDS is a BS movement that has no interest in the "peace process", just the destruction of Israel.
BDS is a BS movement that has no interest in the "peace process", just the destruction of Israel.
Isreal is only concerned with the destruction of a viable Palestinian state. BDS is the only peaceful alternative to Israel's intransigence. The world is waking up.
An international boycott of a small nation is an existential threat to that nation, and should never be done.
An international boycott of a small nation is an existential threat to that nation, and should never be done.
Too bad. If they won't stop throwing a monkey wrench into the peace process by spreading settlements, then I fully support BDS.
BDS has no interest in peace either. They are for the destruction of the state. So let's be clear on what they stand for.
The last attempt at peace was quickly quelled not by the Israelis, but by Abbas, who said from the get go, he wouldn't recognize any language of Israel as a Jewish state. It never got any further than that.
They are for the destruction of the state. So let's be clear on what they stand for.
Let's also be clear what Israel wants. The destruction of the Palestinian state before it's created.
Are you totally ignorant of the fact that 95% and then 97% of their demands were offered by Israel to the Palestinians? And the fact that the Palestinians would not negotiate even when there were NO settlements (at least none that would have been part of a negotiated peace deal).
Are you totally ignorant of the fact that 95% and then 97% of their demands were offered by Israel to the Palestinians? And the fact that the Palestinians would not negotiate even when there were NO settlements (at least none that would have been part of a negotiated peace deal).
Spreading settlements today will kill a viable Palestinian state and lead to endless conflict. Do you get that?
Support of BDS is de facto antisemitism. Just saying...
Support of BDS is de facto antisemitism. Just saying...
So I've heard but, as you know, I don't believe everything I hear.
Except that Norman Finkelstein, one of Israel's biggest critics clearly corners BDS here:
For those of you who don't know who Mr. Finkelstein is an interesting read:
Norman Finkelstein is an unpopular man. Norman Finkelstein has always been an unpopular man, but for decades he had a cult following among leftists and supporters of the Palestinian cause. Since coming out in 2012 against the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, however, he has alienated his core followers. A few years ago, Finkelstein tells me, he made $40,000 in speaking fees from 80 talks to Palestinian Solidarity groups around North America. “This past year when I went to my accountant ... he said, 'I think you have a mistake here, it's only $3,000.' I said, 'No, it's not an error.' He said, 'What happened?' And I thought to myself: Am I going to explain to him BDS?"
Boycott Israel!
Are you personally going to boycott Israel?
I bet you don't even know how a boycott works!!!
One of the biggest myths going is that the settlements are the biggest obstacle to peace. (in fact people trow that phrase around so much they start to believe it).
So let's look at the facts (if anyone believe any of this isn't a fact, let me know please.
It actually pretty simple!
1. Israel was created in 1948.
2. The first settlement wasn't built until 1967.
3. Between 1948 & 1967 there were no settlements at all. Not even 1. Not even 1/2 of a settlement! None. Zero. Zilch.
So if the settlements are the obstacle to peace and weren't built 'till '67-- how come the rabs refused to make peace from 1948 'till 1967-- when there were no settlements at all?
How come you don't the answer to that 1ofmany? (No googling allowed!)
-->Buzz & Bob Nelson aren't allowed to answer because they know I think...
Boycott Israel!
Are you personally going to boycott Israel?
I bet you don't even know how a boycott works!!!
Boycott Israel!
Are you personally going to boycott Israel?
I bet you don't even know how a boycott works!!!
BDS is attempting to pattern their boycott along the same lines of the international boycott that brought an end to apartheid in South Africa. Think it can't work again? Let's put it to the test and see.
Boycott Israel!
Ar you going to do that?
If so-- how?
Here's how a boycott of Israel would work-- you stop buying the products from Israel that you are currently buying.
So-- what Israeli product are you currently buying that you will stop buying when you start your boycott?
Lately I haven't logged in as much as I used to-- for obvious reasons (getting fed up with all the bullshit here). But I was in a bit of a masochistic mood tonight, so I thought I'd chance it. And I wasn't disappointed: so many bullshit articles, so little time!
But I decided to start with this one because there's probably more bullsht, and will be fun to watch some folks making complete fools of themselves on this topic. And especially fun to fisk all the the bullshitters when they bullsh*t on all the bullshit connected with this totally bullshit issue.
______________________________________________________
*OK kiddies-- today's new word is "bullshit".
The huge influx of conservative Jews from Russia after the fall of the Iron Curtain, followed by the Second Intifada, turned Israel permanently against any kind of settlement with the Palestinians.
He makes two excellent points (sort of) than blows it with a bullshit statement at the end. "permanently" against a settlement? How does he know what will happen in the next 60 years-- or the next 10?
And to cite another example ---from the same area-- Egypt had been in several wars to exterminate the Israelis. It looked like there would no chance of peace between the two-- and that situation was permanent.
But then something unexpected happened-- and as a result the two signed a peace treaty.
So even though it was obvious that the state of war would be permanent, Egypt made peaace with Israel.
When Israel was founded, its leaders were left of center. In fact a few were even democratic Communists! Support of Israel in the U.S. came from the left-- those on the right bashed Israel. So what happened?
1. People who escape dictatorships tend to have political views on the opposite end of the spectrum than those of the country they left. Often fairly extreme. (Can you blame them?). People escaping from Naziism in WW were often became leftists. Cubans escaping from Communism are mostly Republicans. So it should come as no surprise that the Jews that were finally allowed to escape Communist U.S.S.R. would be conservative. There were lots of them-- and many escaped to israel. A major reason that Israel's predominant political views changed.
2. Intifada: Arab terrorism was particularly sadistic. And like Hamas today, the hardly ever attack military targets-- the bloodshed and total brutality against Jewish civilian was horrendous. Even liberal Jews began to realize the sadistic nature of the Palestinians.
But the author missed the third reason-- the major one. And that's what happened when Israel unilaterally decided to end half of the occupation-- what happened when thy voluntarily left Gaza. Even many Israeli leftists realized that at least for the present, the Palestinians will never make peace.
It's easy to predict that nothing will change in 10-50 years because Israel is putting settlements on the land that would be necessary to make a viable Palestinian state. Without a viable state, the Palestinians will be resisting occupation forever. This is a recipe for endless war not peace.
There were settlements in Gaza and the Israeli government took them out by force in order to try and start towards a peace agreement. Somehow you seem to have forgotten that part of the story.
There were settlements in Gaza and the Israeli government took them out by force in order to try and start towards a peace agreement. Somehow you seem to have forgotten that part of the story.
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
"All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan."
You should review your timeline, 1ofmany. When the Jews were forcibly removed by their own brethren, there was peace between Israel and the Gazans. Many Gazans had great jobs in Israel to go to, the border was easily crossed. However, when Hamas took over, threw the Palestinian Authority out and started lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian areas, Gaza was isolated.
The Palestinians brought their own suffering upon themselves. Enjoy.
You should review your timeline, 1ofmany. When the Jews were forcibly removed by their own brethren, there was peace between Israel and the Gazans. Many Gazans had great jobs in Israel to go to, the border was easily crossed. However, when Hamas took over, threw the Palestinian Authority out and started lobbing rockets into Israeli civilian areas, Gaza was isolated.
Let's walk back over the history of Hamas. Israel has always been trying to frustrate Palestinian independence. In order to limit the Fatah party's influence, Israel helped Hamas rise and spread as a counterbalance. So if Israel thinks Hamas is awful, then they have themselves to thank.
It has been obvious to me for some time that Israel has absolutely no intention of ever allowing the Palestinians to form a viable independent state and now they make it obvious to all with eyes that they are spreading settlements precisely to eliminate the physical land on which such a state would rest. Perhaps if Israel came to the table to negotiate in good faith, people would not be lobbing rockets and resorting to BDS. Israel is surrounded by 300 million Arabs. The Palestinians will be free one way or another and a peaceful solution to the problem is in Israel's long-term best interests. We will not be willing and/or able to protect Israel forever.
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
Apparently you beleive that just because you throw around a phrase-- it makes it true!
Actually the politically correct phrase is :
Gaza is the world's largest outdoor concentration camp
that's more politically correct and makes the Israelis sound even worse.
But here's what it looked lie-- before Hamas stupidly attacked Israel which resulted in much destruction in Gaza:
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
Apparently you beleive that just because you throw around a phrase-- it makes it true!
Actually the politically correct phrase is :
Gaza is the world's largest outdoor concentration camp
that's more politically correct and makes the Israelis sound even worse.
But here's what it looked lie-- before Hamas stupidly attacked Israel which resulted in much destruction in Gaza:
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
Apparently you beleive that just because you throw around a phrase-- it makes it true!
Actually the politically correct phrase is :
Gaza is the world's largest outdoor concentration camp
that's more politically correct and makes the Israelis sound even worse.
But here's what it looked lie-- before Hamas stupidly attacked Israel which resulted in much destruction in Gaza:
Paris under Nazi occupation. They look so happy.
Can you point out the Jews for me?
Can you point out the Jews for me?
What does the presence or absence of Jews have to do with resisting Nazi occupation?
It's part of the discussion. You are decrying the treatment of Muslims/Arabs by Israel. I was just attempting to put that together.
It's part of the discussion. You are decrying the treatment of Muslims/Arabs by Israel. I was just attempting to put that together.
I'm "decrying" an occupation.
Got it.
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
Apparently you beleive that just because you throw around a phrase-- it makes it true!
Apparently, you believe you can disprove it the same way. What makes it an open air prison run like a Bantustan is because no one can come or go without Israel's consent. Just like a prison or a south African Bantustan and it's irrelevant that Israel leaves the day-to-day administration of the prison to the inmates.
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
Why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
Bad faith. At best, they're taking extra land to pretend like they did something by giving it back. It's like me stealing $100 and when you squak about it, I take $50 more. Then I agree to give you the $50 back, say that I'm fair, and keep the $100.
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
Because at present there is no road to peace. There have been several attempts within the last 10 years all shot down by Abbas yet all would have given them the West Bank.
I don't believe that Netanyahu is right in building more settlements as it stirs the pot. But if Abbas was really interested in his people's best interest, then he should have tried a bit harder (than not at all) during the last Kerry accords.
Exactly. Hamas does not want peace. They never have.
“Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world. Is this what Zionism is about?”
The Israeli right, feeling empowered by the advent of the Trump administration, which is expected to be more sympathetic to Israel’s current policies, is pushing Mr. Netanyahu to abandon the idea of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, long considered the only viable solution to the conflict.
Naftali Bennett, the leader of the pro-settlement Jewish Home party in Mr. Netanyahu’s governing coalition, with whom Mr. Netanyahu and his Likud Party compete for votes, is goading him to take on more extreme positions like annexing parts of the West Bank, adding to a sense in Israel that the real Mr. Netanyahu may have to stand up and decide which side he is on.
“He has to choose between the international community and Bennett,” said Shlomo Avineri, a professor of political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. “It is not an easy choice, but he has to make a choice,” Professor Avineri said, adding: “Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world. Is this what Zionism is about?”
You do realize that is written by the guy who wants to win against Netanyahu, so I would hardly call it unbiased. Sad to see the word Zionism used as if it was a dirty word. It used to mean nothing more than a Jewish homeland.
Do you have any thoughts about the question?
“Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world.
“Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world.
Good question. And it would certainly look that way at first.
So--where's the fallacy?
Simple-- there are countries that are actually pro-israel.
And a larger number that aren't biased either way-- neither "anti-Israel" not anti-Arab. Some of these see both sides of the argument. Some have their own problems and don't want to spend a lot of time and effort thinking about problems far away. (And while sometimes it seems that this conflicit is more important than anything in the world-- there are other problems, its just one of many.)
So how come we dont know about them? Simple: there are 21 or so Arab countries. 55 Muslim countries! If you said you are pro-israel, you'd be in trouble in International organizations. You'd open yourself up to being attacked by some random crazy islamist, etc. You don't piss off 55 countries-- while making nine to 1!
And the Arabs have the oil.And therefore obsene amounts of wealth.
So they keep it quiet. They always vote against Israel in the U.N. so thy are left alone.
And some of the pro-Israel countries have their reasons to support israel. (Usually they are victims of huge waves of attacks by Islamist terrorists for years-- terrorists who claim those countries are occupying their land. And there are other reasons. India is a good example.
Closeted supporters of Israel.
One of these is a Muslim country on Iran's northern border..its called Azerbaijan. They pretend to be neutral, even vote against Israel in the U.N. But they are pro-Israel-- in fact its been mentioned that in the (unlikely) event Israel attacked Iran, they could land in Azerbaijan to refuel before the flight home.
There are more..
[And for trivia lovers, here's something about Azerbaijan-- they have some of the coolest subways in the world!)
I would add the Kurds to that group Kirsh.
The Kurds are well versed in the loss of their homeland. There are around 30 million Kurds spread out over Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria and there are Kurdish Jews living in Israel currently.
Dear Friend Kavika: Excellent point.
Thanks for making it.
E.
I would add the Kurds to that group Kirsh.
Definitely.
The reason I hadn't thought of the Kurds was that I was replying to a statement about Israel isolating itself from the whole world, and I was mentioning that that wasn't true-- and mentioning some countries that were friendly with Israel. (I was thinking of countries in the UN that culd therefore vote on UN resolutions, so I didn't think of the the Kurds as technically are still not a country as their land is controlled by occupying powers).
Israel and the Kurds have a long friendship. Saddam was an enemy of the Kurds-- he used WMDs on them (poison gas). Kurds hated him.
Israel destroyed the nuclear reactor Saddm ws building. And while its supposedly a secret as Israel was officially not involced in the first Gulf War, there were actually Israelis who smuggled themselves into Northern Iraq and trained Kurdish fighters, plus supplyig them with weapons!
How could Israelis do this? Well, Iraqi Jews had been terribly persecuted in the past, so those that could emigrated to Israel. And while they had learned Hebrew of course-- these Jews had come from Iraq, so not only was their original native language Arabic-- but they spoke it with a flawless Iraqi accent! And they were familar with iraq so they got in easily and knew how to pass themselves off as Iraqis.
“Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world. Is this what Zionism is about?”
I'd like to take a shot.
Israel is not going to alienate itself.
There are countries that outwardly speak out - and vote - against Israel out of necessity. There are Arab/Islamic nations that deal and do business with Israel that will not stop doing business with them anytime soon. Israel's commerce with the EU, a constant and steady source of votes "against", recorded record commerce with Israel as 2016 draws to a close. Israel is committed to sitting down with the Palestinians in direct negotiations for the purpose of creating a state for them. These countries all have seen the incitement and hatred of the ruling bodies of the Palestinians, and have also read their charters, and understand that the Palestinian movement is not about statehood, but the destruction of the Jewish state.
From the bottom of my heart, I feel bad for these poor, indigent people who are trapped by their Islamist handlers. I truly wish that there could be something that Israel could do for those women and children and elderly who want no part of this hostility. If you feel for these people too, open your eyes and look at the people who are in power in these territories. I think you can rest assured that Israel will not perpetrate an Assad-like treatment of the innocent civilians of these territories, but there can be no one-sided reconciliation, with Israel on one side, and hateful organizations like Fatah and Hamas on the other. There can also be no Palestinian state created through the back door at the UN, as resolution after resolution requires face to face negotiations.
The resolution did no favor to the Palestinians. Israel has been abiding by the directives that the UN has given them. That puts them in rare company in their region. I fear that Israel, seeing how other nations ignore resolutions directed at them - without consequence - will now do the same.
I firmly believe that it is everyone's goal to live in peace. I just don't thing there's a way out anymore, and I do believe that Israel is coming closer to that realization. Therefore, they will circle the wagons, do the best for themselves, and treat their enemies with less and less deference.
This is not what Zionism was originally about. But as the world continues these measures; as the world continues a policy of pressing one side to relent, that possibility will get smaller and smaller.
Thank you Jonathan P for that comment. It is much more measured than I could have done. It explains what I always knew about the oil-poor counties that have no alternative to pandering to the Muslim oil-rich nations. What the Palestinian backers on this site fail to acknowledge is the undeniable need for the Palestinians to gain ALL of the lands "from the river to the sea" (their slogan) as dictated by the Muslim adage that any land that they consider once theirs shall NEVER be given up until regained (for example Andalucia).
To me, Obama has confiscated Israel's bargaining cards in a negotiation, and there would have been a negotiation had the Palestinians sat down and negotiated, land swaps, and peace, but I'm not going to repeat to those who refuse to even pay attention to all the concessions made by Israel to be faced with refusal by the Palestinians to even sit down at the table. However, I also believe in the adage that if the Palestinians were to put down their arms there would be peace, and if the Israelis were to put down their arms there would be genocide.
"The matter has become urgent because the settler movement, in a determined effort to ignore Obama and the international community, has been advancing its ambitions in a way that would make the ceding of any more territory to the Palestinians virtually impossible. Since Obama took office, the population of West Bank settlements has grown by nearly 100,000, with no end in sight.
While Israeli governments over the years were somewhat constrained by international opposition, the settlers were not. Driven by their biblical imperative, they have managed to establish what amounts to a deep settler state within Israel’s governing institutions. They have relentlessly pressed successive Israeli governments into expanding existing settlements and established outposts in strategic locations in the heart of the West Bank. Those outposts are illegal under Israeli law . Prime Minister Ariel Sharon gave President George W. Bush a written commitment in 2004 to dismantle them, but today they have grown from 30 to some 100.
Now the settler movement, encouraged by the prospect of a Trump administration they believe will be sympathetic to their aspirations, is pushing the current Netanyahu government to pass legislation that will legalize all these outposts. The Knesset has already passed the first reading of the bill and Netanyahu has pledged to support it.
This, not the false charge of hostility to Israel, is why the Obama administration abstained on United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334, which challenged the legal validity of all the settlements. For the past year, the Obama administration has warned the Israeli government, and criticized and condemned new settlement activity, including a new settlement established in the northern West Bank the day after Obama attended the funeral of Shimon Peres, a towering statesman and peacemaker. Those objections were systematically ignored.
The U.S. administration feared that the passage of the legislation — even in the face of repeated warnings from Israel’s attorney general that it would breach international law — would slam shutthe door on any prospect of territorial compromise over the West Bank. It chose a flawed vehicle, because the U.N. resolution conflates the issues of building in East Jerusalem with West Bank settlement activity. But it was driven to abstain from — not endorse — this extreme measure by the settlers and their promoters in the Israeli government."
Perrie , why should we believe that the political right in Israel doesn't simply want to effect a fait accompli and put settlements in place that cannot be rolled back, leaving a two state solution impossible?
Catholics certainly have a history of antipathy towards Jews.
All isreal did was create an open air prison run like a bantustan.
Apparently you beleive that just because you throw around a phrase-- it makes it true!
Actually the politically correct phrase is :
Gaza is the world's largest outdoor concentration camp
that's more politically correct and makes the Israelis sound even worse.
But here's what it looked lie-- before Hamas stupidly attacked Israel which resulted in much destruction in Gaza:
Catholics certainly have a history of antipathy towards Jews.
A common misconception. Like Islam, Catholicism is The Religion of peace. So when a Catholic person does something bad, they become no longer Catholic-- just like Muslims!
When a Catholic does something bad, we must say the politically correct thing. Just a with Muslims, we must say they are not real Catholics because (tada):
THEY HAVE HIJACKED THE RELIGION!
Perrie , why should we believe that the political right in Israel doesn't simply want to effect a fait accompli and put settlements in place that cannot be rolled back, leaving a two state solution impossible?
Gaza was occupied. Settlements were built. Palestinians screamed about it.
Then Israel withdrew.End of Occupation.End of problem.
"Gaza was occupied. Settlements were built. Palestinians screamed about it.
Then Israel withdrew.End of Occupation.End of problem."
I think you mean: "End of Occupation. Start of Rockets."
Go ahead and ignore Hamas's written and well publicized constitution is that their intention is to destroy Israel and annihilate the Jews. There are a number of NT members who already ignore it (perhaps they even desire it).
"Gaza was occupied. Settlements were built. Palestinians screamed about it.
Then Israel withdrew.End of Occupation.End of problem."
I think you mean: "End of Occupation. Start of Rockets."
Yes-- when Israel ended the occupation of Gaza, then the Gazans started firing the rockets.
But what I meant was: the Arabs were complaining about the settlements in gaza. But when Israel withdrew, the settlements were no more-- so that was a "problem" that Hamas could no longer complain about.
In other words, Gaza proved that those settlemetns, which eveyone claims aarre a "permanent obstacle to peace" are not really..permanent!
“Is Israel going to alienate itself from the whole world for the sake of settlement activity? And it is the whole world.
Good question. And it would certainly look that way at first.
So--where's the fallacy?
Simple-- there are countries that are actually pro-israel.
And a larger number that aren't biased either way-- neither "anti-Israel" not anti-Arab. Some of these see both sides of the argument. Some have their own problems and don't want to spend a lot of time and effort thinking about problems far away. (And while sometimes it seems that this conflicit is more important than anything in the world-- there are other problems, its just one of many.)
So how come we dont know about them? Simple: there are 21 or so Arab countries. 55 Muslim countries! If you said you are pro-israel, you'd be in trouble in International organizations. You'd open yourself up to being attacked by some random crazy islamist, etc. You don't piss off 55 countries-- while making nine to 1!
And the Arabs have the oil.And therefore obsene amounts of wealth.
So they keep it quiet. They always vote against Israel in the U.N. so thy are left alone.
And some of the pro-Israel countries have their reasons to support israel. (Usually they are victims of huge waves of attacks by Islamist terrorists for years-- terrorists who claim those countries are occupying their land. And there are other reasons. India is a good example.
Closeted supporters of Israel.
One of these is a Muslim country on Iran's northern border..its called Azerbaijan. They pretend to be neutral, even vote against Israel in the U.N. But they are pro-Israel-- in fact its been mentioned that in the (unlikely) event Israel attacked Iran, they could land in Azerbaijan to refuel before the flight home.
There are more..
[And for trivia lovers, here's something about Azerbaijan-- they have some of the coolest subways in the world!)
. Since Obama took office, the population of West Bank settlements has grown by nearly 100,000, with no end in sight.
But conider this-- there are a few large settlement blocks-- but in all the amount of land all settlements take is about only 5% of the entire West Bank! Meaning? If peace is reached, they'll probably go to israel, and there will be land swaps )other small amounts of Israeli land goes to Palestine.).
Forget it, Krishna, they WON'T consider that.
Because at present there is no road to peace. There have been several attempts within the last 10 years all shot down by Abbas yet all would have given them the West Bank.
Of course he shoots it down. Israel is spreading settlements over the land and then linking them with Israeli controlled highways that effectively chop up any future Palestinian state to the point of making the state meaningless. Israel doesn't want the Palestinians as citizens nor do they want a viable Palestinian state so they offer a bullshit alternative and then throw up their hands in feigned disbelief when the offer is rejected.
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
There are 2 correct answers-- here's the first:
Israel does not consider the West Bank part of Israel. They won't annex it. The Israelis call it "the disputed territories". Its final status has not been settled. (And when it is, the borders may change a bit). Its status is pending.
Pending a resolution of the conflict. Te Palestinians refuse to agree to a peace treaty 'till Israel withdraws. For its own security, Israel won't withdraw 'till Palestinians make peace. (Which would be suicidal-- look what happened when they pulled out of gaza without a peace treaty!)
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
There are 2 correct answers-- here's the first:
Israel does not consider the West Bank part of Israel. They won't annex it. The Israelis call it "the disputed territories". Its final status has not been settled. (And when it is, the borders may change a bit). Its status is pending.
Pending a resolution of the conflict. Te Palestinians refuse to agree to a peace treaty 'till Israel withdraws. For its own security, Israel won't withdraw 'till Palestinians make peace. (Which would be suicidal-- look what happened when they pulled out of gaza without a peace treaty!)
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
There are 2 correct answers-- here's the first:
Israel does not consider the West Bank part of Israel. They won't annex it. The Israelis call it "the disputed territories". Its final status has not been settled. (And when it is, the borders may change a bit). Its status is pending.
Pending a resolution of the conflict. Te Palestinians refuse to agree to a peace treaty 'till Israel withdraws. For its own security, Israel won't withdraw 'till Palestinians make peace. (Which would be suicidal-- look what happened when they pulled out of gaza without a peace treaty!)
There were settlements in Gaza and the Israeli government took them out by force in order to try and start towards a peace agreement. Somehow you seem to have forgotten that part of the story.
Bingo!
At the time the usual suspects kept whining that those settlements were a permanent obstacle to peace. (People were throwing that phrase around all over..many didn't even know what it meant-- but it made them feel good!). But those "Permanent Obstacles to Peace" were not obstacles after all.
So the fact is-- the argument that the settlements are what's preventing peace is totally false.
There were settlements in Gaza and the Israeli government took them out by force in order to try and start towards a peace agreement. Somehow you seem to have forgotten that part of the story.
The territories are still occupied because Israel controls the ability of anyone to come or go and enters anytime they feel like it.
I think you mean that Israel is making sure that Hamas, which fires its rockets and missiles into Israeli civilian areas, is unable to import from Iran even more sophiticated and lethal weapons, and more and more of them.
This is a recipe for endless war not peace.
Unlike the rest of the Middle East
Well, Obama just took Israel's only chip in order to stay in the game, turned around, gave everyone the finger and walked out the door. POS
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
There are 2 correct answers-- here's the first:
Israel does not consider the West Bank part of Israel. They won't annex it. The Israelis call it "the disputed territories". Its final status has not been settled. (And when it is, the borders may change a bit). Its status is pending.
Pending a resolution of the conflict. Te Palestinians refuse to agree to a peace treaty 'till Israel withdraws. For its own security, Israel won't withdraw 'till Palestinians make peace. (Which would be suicidal-- look what happened when they pulled out of gaza without a peace treaty!)
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
Well-- why is Israel letting Palestinians create a Muslim (Palestinian) residential community on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
Really John-- you're starting to sound a lot like like Trump in reverse (Don't let Jews in-- but Muslims are OK.)
Israel proper is over 20% Arab-- one in five Israeli citizens are Arabs!!!. So if Israel can have Arab citizens-- why can't the West Bank-- a future Palestine-- be allowed to have Jews there?
Check out the photos of Rawabi-- a residential community Palestinian Muslims are building in THE WORLD'S LARGEST OUTDOOR CONCENTRATION CAMP!
Rawabi: A city of dreams for hopeful Palestinians
Big money and big ambitions have been poured into Rawabi, a huge new development Palestinians hope will shift dynamics across the West Bank.
Bashar Masri, the Palestinian-American who is developing Rawabi, launched the city to make money; he is a businessman. Mr. Masri, 55, is tall, slim, and typically wears elegant suits, though when I meet him he opts for a simple white shirt and jeans. He is from Nablus, the bustling Palestinian cultural and commercial centre in the northern end of the West Bank, and is the nephew of Munib al-Masri, the Palestinian billionaire, philanthropist and peace advocate who is variously known as “the Duke of Nablus” or simply “the Godfather.”
Yup-- there are Palestinian billionaires in "The World's Largest Outdoor Concentration Camp". Just more proof of how evil those Jew-Zionists are!
Check out the photos of Rawabi-- a community built by Palestinians (Muslims) in land that is to be negotiated over in the peace process. (Why are the evil Zionists letting them do this?)
Look at the pictures. Spend a few minutes on this site-- its excellent!
Sheesh-- it look s exactly like a WWII Nazi Concentration camp. Heck-- its worse than a Nazi concentration camp!
(LINK)
P.S. 1ofmany: you've been lied to-- big time!!!
He Is From Nablus, The Bustling Palestinian Cultural And Commercial Centre In The Northern End Of The West Bank,
And for those who wish to see real human suffering, a true "Largest Outdoor-type Concentration Camp". Oh-- the horror!
Maybe I should post some pictures of Nablus-- in the Occupied West Bank.
(But be warned-- some of the things you will see may be nicer than your own home town).
NT...Get Smarter Here!
Perrie, why is Israel creating Jewish (Israeli) residential communities on land that is to be negotiated over in a peace process?
There are 2 correct answers-- here's the first:
Israel does not consider the West Bank part of Israel. They won't annex it. The Israelis call it "the disputed territories". Its final status has not been settled. (And when it is, the borders may change a bit). Its status is pending.
Pending a resolution of the conflict. Te Palestinians refuse to agree to a peace treaty 'till Israel withdraws. For its own security, Israel won't withdraw 'till Palestinians make peace. (Which would be suicidal-- look what happened when they pulled out of gaza without a peace treaty!)
One should not normalize antisemites by debating them.
Has what Obama done made things better? I think no.. Some people don't need to be given the power they have because they will just abuse it.
If Israel went back to the original land they were given for the Jewish state, you know the day before they were attacked by 7 Arab countries who didn't accept it then, it would not make any difference. There would have still been Jews alive and that just wouldn't do.
Well, it didn't turn out the way these 7 countries had planned and it didn't turn out the way the Palestinian Arabs had been told it would turn out. Many left with the hopes of returning and gaining all of the land, but it didn't happen, so they became refugees instead.
They need to blame Jordan who has almost all their land and who had the opportunity to create a separate Palestinian state, but didn't. The fact is they want to drive every living Jews out and will not be satisfied until they do. No two state solution, giving land to Palestine, ending the building of communities where both Palestinians and Israeli live will change these propagandized people into peaceful neighbors who have changed their one desire to kill every Jew they see.
Obama didn't accomplish a thing. He only showed us once more he is not to be trusted, destroyed the most important time of the year for the Nation of Israel and told us to deal with it before walking out the door and slamming it in our face.
Hey John Kerry your blabbering means NOTHING
That finger of God must be a representation of my wallet.
Israel has one goal: increase the land area controlled by Israel to the maximum extent possible by any means that they can get away with as long as it doesn't lead to absorbing the Palestinian population. To achieve the goal, they will:
1) outright lie;
2) obfuscate to confuse people;
3) deflect to draw attention away from them;
4) stall; and
5) when all else fails, claim that any resistance to their shenanigans is ant-Semitic.
Of course, those who oppose them are not saints so anything that anybody says must be closely examined to learn the truth.
You make that statement in a way to indicate it is your opinion. Other than on this issue, 1ofmany, I have not only respected your comments on issues, and in fact have enjoyed discussions with you, admiring your viewpoints and enjoying reading your comments which display your superior knowledge and thoughtfulness. However, I have to say now that you have played the "anti-Semitism" victimization card, and that most intelligent readers might look at your calling Jews who are trying to defend their existence liars and deceitful (is that called takiyyah? Oh, no, wrong religion), one wonders how you can not label yourself as being anti-Semitic.
. . . Oh, no, wrong religion), one wonders how you can not label yourself as being anti-Semitic.
And I respect your views as well Buzz and will continue to do so even if we disagree (assuming we can do it without insulting each other). However, as I have said before at other times, I do not equate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews. To me, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it all and will likely never see it any other way. It's not that I don't recognize the Israeli point of view but the Palestinians have a valid point of view as well and. It should be heard if we ever expect to see peace . . . and I still hold out that prospect.
How can Israel know and modify the Palestinian point of view and its own point of view if the Palestinians refuse to negotiate a settlement of the issues? I'm not going to repeat over and over again all the attempts and concessions Israel has made, with absolutely no reciprocation. I learned long ago, and in my practice carried out arbitration settlements between parties with different opinions, and the only way to have settled any such dispute was for BOTH sides to make concessions to meet in the middle. The sign of a perfect result was when BOTH sides were unhappy with the result. But surely everyone knows that there will be no settlement without sitting at the table and negotiating. Abbas has admitted, I believe, that if he makes one concession to settle with Israel his life is forfeit, so don't count on a settlement happening for a long time if ever. Abbas has also admitted that the biggest mistake the Arabs had made was NOT to accept Partition (even though doing so was contrary to their religion), but I'm afraid he has carried on the tradition of making mistakes. The longer the impass goes on, the harder it is going to be for the Palestinians to achieve what they want.
Regardless of what has happened in the past, settlement expansion and the creation of a viable Palestinian state are mutually exclusive. The Palestinians have said that this is a deal breaker and that settlement expansion must stop as a prerequisite to negotiations. How much clearer can they be?
So when Israel had declared an 11 month moratorium on settlement expansion in the hopes of bringing the Palestinians to the table, the Palestinians did nothing until the end of the moratorium and demanded an extension of it. That's bullshit, isn't it. But you believe the Palestinians want to negotiate.
The moratorium should have been permanent if Israel wanted it taken seriously. Building settlements or threatening to build them on land that is necessary for a viable Palestinian state strikes me like bad faith negotiations.
There was nothing to indicate that the Palestinians would negotiate if the moratorium were continued, only more months of total inaction and delay. Have the Palestinians EVER made ONE MEASLY concession to match what Israel has done?
What is the purpose of continuing to build settlements if they don't expect them to remain? If they remain, there is no viable Palestinian state.
Maybe so, but the longer the Palestinians delay coming to the table to negotiate, the more obstacles will happen. What's the lesson to be learned?
Are you saying Israel would not vacate and demolish settlements? What do you think they did in Gaza?
I think the lesson they will learn is that a viable Palestinian state is no longer an option, that occupation is permanent, and that the only course of action is either violent resistance and/or BDS.
And if they continue to refuse reasonable negotiations WITH making concessions, you are right that there will be no peace, certainly not in MY lifetime. However, Israel continues to prosper notwithstanding. So who's the loser?
Who's the loser? In the end it will be Israel. Eventually, will be unable and/or unwilling to protect them.
Yes, your American govenment has just taken a giant step in that direction. I doubt that the next administration will do a lot to strengthen Israel. If eventually Israel must go it alone, I'm sure they will be capable of doing so. After all, after thousands of years of being considered pariahs and being despised, Jews are capable of withstanding more.
Damn! Can't amend. I meant that I DON'T doubt the next American administration will do a lot to strengthen Israel.
There was nothing to indicate that the Palestinians would negotiate if the moratorium were continued, only more months of total inaction and delay. Have the Palestinians EVER made ONE MEASLY concession to match what Israel has done?
This is an example of where I waited a long time for the comment to be posted, tried posting it again to get some action, and then the amend/remove icons did not show up.
I have like 5 posts of the same thing on another thread because of a similar problem.
Yeah, I saw that and totally understood what happened.
This is an example of where I waited a long time for the comment to be posted, tried posting it again to get some action, and then the amend/remove icons did not show up.
There have been a lot of problems with NT lately. Its because Mercury is retrograde.
It happens several times a year. This time its from Dec 19th - Jan. 8th. The original post on NV with much info on the subject is here:
Important Upcoming Astrology Influence (Effects Mainly Communication & Transportation)
(LINK)