PA City Finally Removes Veterans Memorial Bench That Denigrated Atheists
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/07/04/pa-city-finally-removes-veterans-memorial-bench-that-denigrated-atheists/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=361
For more than a decade, Justus Park in Oil City, Pennsylvania was home to a bench honoring veterans that read “Men Who Aren’t Governed By God, Will Be Governed By Tyrants.”
As if our only options were God or tyranny.
It was a slap in the face to atheist veterans — and everyone who gives a damn about the Constitution, since this was clearly government promotion of religion, breaking the very laws our vets fought to uphold.
Last November, the American Atheists Legal Center sent a letter to Mayor William P. Moon, Jr. noting that, while the bench had been around since 2003, that wasn’t an excuse to allow it to remain there.
After receiving the complaint, American Atheists obtained pictures of the entire VFW Memorial and understands the intent of the obelisk and two benches is to honor those who have served and died overseas. However, the Tyrants Bench contains an overtly religious message which endorses one particular religious viewpoint: Christianity. The statement that “Men Who Aren’t Governed By God, Will Be Governed By Tyrants” not only has absolutely nothing to do with honoring our service members but is derisive toward the all non-Christian American service members who have served and died for this country.
Or they could duke it out in court.
City officials weren’t going to respond at first. They felt the bench was perfectly fine as is:
[Mayor] Moon asked VFW Commander Jason Reed for a reply because it is a VFW memorial and donated by the local post. He asked the post to decide what it wants to do.
The post didn’t take long to decide and voted unanimously late last week to reject the request.
“I wanted to get this out to everybody when I saw the letter; it’s absolutely insane,” said Reed. “They said we had five days to respond, but then what? They quoted some legal cases, but I have other cases, too. If it goes anywhere, a judge is not going to take that away. If they want to go the legal way, I am talking to attorneys about any legal right they have to come in here and make us do this.”
That attitude could have cost the city quite a bit of money in a lawsuit since the law is so obviously not on their side. I guess they finally realized that, too, since they all changed their minds on the “not replying” thing rather quickly.
American Atheists offered to replace the bench, at no cost to taxpayers, with a more inclusive message that both sides would find “mutually agreeable.”
The City Council announced in December that they had voted to remove the bench from the park. It would be given back to the VFW and a new one (not the one offered by atheists) would be put in its place.
I thought that put an end to the controversy… except the bench was never removed. It’s like everyone there hoped the atheists would just forget about it. So American Atheists sent one more warning letter in April saying they planned to sue if the bench wasn’t gone by May 3.
And check out what happened. City officials realized they were on the losing side of this argument.
“From an administration standpoint, this is heading toward litigation,” City manager Mark Schroyer said. “At that point, we have to decide what are our wins, losses, and gain. What is the solicitor telling us after consultation with other legal experts? Our position is very poor from a legal standpoint. Our collective opinion is — if it’s winnable, it would be so costly what would we actually be gaining other than taking the stand our residents are asking?”
…
“I find it very disappointing that someone raised this issue, and here we are,” Councilman Ronald Gustafson said. “It’s a huge financial risk to the city. I’ve given it a lot of thought, and I don’t feel it (the case) is winnable as to how it relates to the inscription. I can’t see how it relates to honoring vets, but it can be perceived to be demeaning to certain people of a certain belief. Freedom of religion means we all have a right to our beliefs. It’s a shame that something that’s been there for 13 years has fallen into our laps, but as a government, it’s our responsibility to see all sides. I don’t see how that particular engraving can be defended as a freedom of speech. It is, but it’s also stating a pretty strong religious opinion.”
Eventually, the Oil City Council voted to remove the bench and give it back to the VFW — along with another bench and monument that the VFW had also donated.
That transaction has finally taken place. And last night, the VFW held a re-dedication ceremony that included speeches criticizing the atheists for what they had done.
For more than a decade, Justus Park in Oil City, Pennsylvania was home to a bench honoring veterans that read “Men Who Aren’t Governed By God, Will Be Governed By Tyrants.”
As if our only options were God or tyranny.
It was a slap in the face to atheist veterans — and everyone who gives a damn about the Constitution, since this was clearly government promotion of religion, breaking the very laws our vets fought to uphold.
Last November, the American Atheists Legal Center sent a letter to Mayor William P. Moon, Jr. noting that, while the bench had been around since 2003, that wasn’t an excuse to allow it to remain there.
After receiving the complaint, American Atheists obtained pictures of the entire VFW Memorial and understands the intent of the obelisk and two benches is to honor those who have served and died overseas. However, the Tyrants Bench contains an overtly religious message which endorses one particular religious viewpoint: Christianity. The statement that “Men Who Aren’t Governed By God, Will Be Governed By Tyrants” not only has absolutely nothing to do with honoring our service members but is derisive toward the all non-Christian American service members who have served and died for this country.
Or they could duke it out in court.
City officials weren’t going to respond at first. They felt the bench was perfectly fine as is:
[Mayor] Moon asked VFW Commander Jason Reed for a reply because it is a VFW memorial and donated by the local post. He asked the post to decide what it wants to do.
The post didn’t take long to decide and voted unanimously late last week to reject the request.
“I wanted to get this out to everybody when I saw the letter; it’s absolutely insane,” said Reed. “They said we had five days to respond, but then what? They quoted some legal cases, but I have other cases, too. If it goes anywhere, a judge is not going to take that away. If they want to go the legal way, I am talking to attorneys about any legal right they have to come in here and make us do this.”
That attitude could have cost the city quite a bit of money in a lawsuit since the law is so obviously not on their side. I guess they finally realized that, too, since they all changed their minds on the “not replying” thing rather quickly.
American Atheists offered to replace the bench, at no cost to taxpayers, with a more inclusive message that both sides would find “mutually agreeable.”
The City Council announced in December that they had voted to remove the bench from the park. It would be given back to the VFW and a new one (not the one offered by atheists) would be put in its place.
I thought that put an end to the controversy… except the bench was never removed. It’s like everyone there hoped the atheists would just forget about it. So American Atheists sent one more warning letter in April saying they planned to sue if the bench wasn’t gone by May 3.
And check out what happened. City officials realized they were on the losing side of this argument.
“From an administration standpoint, this is heading toward litigation,” City manager Mark Schroyer said. “At that point, we have to decide what are our wins, losses, and gain. What is the solicitor telling us after consultation with other legal experts? Our position is very poor from a legal standpoint. Our collective opinion is — if it’s winnable, it would be so costly what would we actually be gaining other than taking the stand our residents are asking?”
…
“I find it very disappointing that someone raised this issue, and here we are,” Councilman Ronald Gustafson said. “It’s a huge financial risk to the city. I’ve given it a lot of thought, and I don’t feel it (the case) is winnable as to how it relates to the inscription. I can’t see how it relates to honoring vets, but it can be perceived to be demeaning to certain people of a certain belief. Freedom of religion means we all have a right to our beliefs. It’s a shame that something that’s been there for 13 years has fallen into our laps, but as a government, it’s our responsibility to see all sides. I don’t see how that particular engraving can be defended as a freedom of speech. It is, but it’s also stating a pretty strong religious opinion.”
Eventually, the Oil City Council voted to remove the bench and give it back to the VFW — along with another bench and monument that the VFW had also donated.
That transaction has finally taken place. And last night, the VFW held a re-dedication ceremony that included speeches criticizing the atheists for what they had done.
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While I don't agree that this bench overtly emphasizes Christianity, I think that anyone would be a fool to claim it is in reference to any religion other than Christianity in the context it exists in.
If this pisses off religionists, ask yourselves whether this bench would be appropriate. Many of you would argue that it wouldn't bother them if the term 'God' were replaced with its Islamic equivalent, 'Allah'.
Only as correct as this one.
Now it's overtly Islamic rather than generic. Apples and oranges.
God = Allah = God
Allah = Islamic god
"G"od = Christian god
Lol. No. Every word in the quotation is capitalized.
Well, I guess they didn't think that out very well. Either way, to a non-believer it is a joke of a statement.
Allah = God in Arabic languages. Christians in Iraq call god "Allah".
Nope. Not even a little.
"Men Who Aren’t Governed By God, Will Be Governed By Tyrants"
No reference to Christianity evident here. It's just a (possibly misattributed) quote from William Penn.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnadams391045.html
"Our position is very poor from a legal standpoint."
I concur.
Good, since it's a quoted admission on behalf of the City.
I never argued that they wouldn’t lose. They made the right call be kowtowing to the extortionists.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."
Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams
Unfortunately for you, that was just Adams's opinion and not worth a damn.
"Unfortunately for you, that was just Adams's opinion and not worth a damn."
Wrong! That was also the unanimous "opinion" of Congress and as a signed treaty, also has the force of Constitutional Law. So it actually is worth something and speaks volumes.
My comment wasn't referring to the Treaty of Tripoli but to an random Adam's quote that Xxjefferson51 put up above. I obviously didn't get it in the right response position. I'm still learning this new-to-me format.
Actually you got it in the right place, but there seems to have been a miscommunication somewhere.
My mistake and apologies. I'm still getting used to this site too.
No apology needed, but thanks.
"
You can keep putting up all the irrelevant quotes you want for the rest of your days but it will not change the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled dozens of times that government at any level is forbidden from giving any religion special status over another or over no religion.
"
"
Nope. Just pointing out how similar the words on the bench forcibly removed due to FFRF atheist fascist goons demands were to the words of the founding fathers several of whom wrote the constitution. The bench was removed due to nothing more than heavy handed atheist thuggery.
Lol. Not.
It was removed to save the City from the expense of a certain loss in court.
The exact goonish thuggery I referred to.
Oh ok, so those who are legally in the right are goonish thugs. That's one of the most moronic things you've said yet.
Like abolitionists that fought against slavery? Poor argument.
No, it has nothing to do with enslaving people because of their race, drama queen.
Oh ok, so those who are legally in the right are goonish thugs.
And those goonish thugs who wrote and ratified our Constitution.
The exact goonish thuggery I referred to.
You should really accept that you are not going to impose your beliefs on me or anyone else.
Yep.
The Founding Fathers also advocated the separation of church and state!
The Founding Fathers also advocated the separation of church and state!
The city would lose the court case. A good decision on the part of the city.
The interesting thing to me is that the military is inclusive, when your in combat you don't ask what religion the grunt covering your six is. The only thing that is important is that your covered. Your life is dependent on your team.
If, as the military states, it's inclusive than the VFW is in conflict with the military on that issue.
The FFRF offered to replace the bench at their cost with an inscription that is more inclusive of everyone regardless of their faith or lack of it.
That seems much more in the line of thinking that the military is promoting.
Military units work as a team at every level. Success you live to fight another day. Failure there isn't another day. It's that simple.
I doubt if God is looking down and saying save that Christian and welcome him/her home, I have a great bench for them. The rest of the non believers can go to hell.
Atheists in foxholes? Lol.
Atheists in foxholes? Lol.
Like you were ever in one.
The VFW used a slightly corrupted version of a quote from William Penn the Younger which was:
Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants.
This was in a time when open declarations of atheism could lead to serious social if not physical harm from even Quakers like Penn. By the time of this country's founding, Penn was long gone and even slave-owning founders like Madison (who wrote the Constitution) made a specific point to prevent any religious belief system from being politically dominant. Believers have been trying to undo that ever since. Neither Christianity nor any other belief system owns patriotism, courage. And the history of nearly all religions throughout human history is anything but a model for how to avoid tyranny. Bravo to the the city council of Oil City, even if their motivation for having the bench removed was simply to avoid a fight rather than uphold a founding principle of this country.
Notice: I'm one of the likely growing numbers of Newsvine "refugees" who are showing up here. I hope to have an spirited and enjoyable experience.
Welcome!
I agree that the city was smart to remove the bench. It was a certain loss in court and would have been a waste of their taxpayers dollars to fight it.
Thanks. I was relieved that when I got to this website is was NewsTalkers and not NewStalkers.
The NT atheist welcome wagon welcomes all nonbelievers. The more the merrier!
Non believers? 😂 lol! Atheism is a religious belief system.
Sure, just like not playing basketball is a sport.
That's a perfect analogy.
Atheism is a religious belief system.
That's a contradiction in terms. I'll never understand the theist's need to view atheism as a religion.
Get used to it here. It's like speaking to a brick wall.
I will concede that atheism is a belief. After all, one can believe that leprechauns don't exist, that bigfoot doesn't exist, that aliens don't exist, and that compassionate conservatives don't exist - these are all perfectly reasonable mindsets. What they are not, is belief systems. The staunch theist may argue that some atheists systematically go out of their way to disrupt theism, which is true, but that is not a trait inherent to atheism itself, it is a trait of the individual. We have at least three ultra conservatives here (possibly more now) who are admitted atheists - two of whom are uncle tom atheists. There is no logical 'system' to an uncle tom atheist. They simply believe that there are no gods, but they are also so embarrassed to share such a controversial belief with non-conservatives that they rarely ever mention their non-belief.
I will concede that atheism is a belief.
Not in the sense of the word.
one can believe that leprechauns don't exist, that bigfoot doesn't exist, that aliens don't exist, and that compassionate conservatives don't exist
That's more of a logical conclusion rather than actual belief.
I've always maintained that atheism is simply a reaction to theism. Without theism, the term atheism would be just a nonsense word. Why have a word to describe my nonbelief that there is a Big Mac buried on Europa? Until someone insists that there is a Big Mac buried on Europa, there is no need to describe myself as an aeuropianburiedbigmacist.
We have to work with the vocabulary we have. Rationalist is probably a better word than atheist since believers (I prefer that to "theists" since that is close to Deist which a lot of the founders were: belief in a creator that no longer involves itself with its creation). The other thing, absurd as it is, is that believers think the word "atheism" is a belief system based on non-belief. I know. It's ridiculous on its face but that never stops them. I wonder why they think that's a clever argument. By calling atheism "just another belief" like theirs it's like saying all belief systems are equal and the same--i.e., nothing special about any of them, including their own. I guess I'm fine with that if they are.
"...two of whom are uncle tom atheists."
Remember, there's always room for racist rhetoric on NT!