by Soeren Kern , Gatestone Institute, December 24, 2017
This year's Christmas season has been marked by Islam-related controversies in nearly every European country. Most of the conflicts have been generated by Europe's multicultural political and religious elites, who are bending over backwards to secularize Christmas, ostensibly to ensure that Muslims will not be offended by the Christian festival.
Many traditional Christmas markets have been renamed — Amsterdam Winter Parade , Brussels Winter Pleasures , Kreuzberger Wintermarkt , London Winterville , Munich Winter Festival — to project a multicultural veneer of secular tolerance.
More troubling are the growing efforts to Islamize Christmas. The re-theologizing of Christmas is based on the false premise that the Jesus of the Bible is the Jesus (Isa) of the Koran. This religious fusion, sometimes referred to as "Chrislam," is gaining ground in a West that has become biblically illiterate.
In Britain , for instance, the All Saints Church in Kingston upon Thames recently held a joint birthday celebration for Jesus and Mohammed. The "Milad, Advent and Christmas Celebration" on December 3 was aimed at "marking the birthday of Prophet Mohammed and looking forward to the birthday of Jesus." The hour-long service included time for Islamic prayer and was followed by the cutting of a birthday cake.
The prominent Christian blog "Archbishop Cranmer" rebuked the church for its lack of discernment:
"Note how this event is 'Marking the birthday of Prophet Mohammed,' but not looking forward to the birthday of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Mohammed gets his prophethood, while Jesus gets neither his prophethood nor his priesthood; neither his kingship nor his messiahship. It's the exalted Prophet Mohammed along with plain old Jesus, because to have added any of his claims to divinity would, of course, have alienated many Muslims (if they hadn't already been alienated by the haram [forbidden by Islam] celebration), which wouldn't have been very interfaith or sensitively missional, would it?"
The blog added that exalting Mohammed in churches effectively proclaims that Mohammed is greater than Jesus:
"Every time a church accords Mohammed the epithet 'Prophet,' they are rejecting the crucifixion, denying the resurrection of Christ, and refuting that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, for Mohammed denied all of these foundational tenets of the Christian faith."
Previously, a passage from the Koran denying that Jesus is the Son of God was read during a service at a Scottish Episcopal Church in Glasgow on Epiphany, a festival commemorating the incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ. One of the Queen's chaplains, Gavin Ashenden, referred to the Koran reading as "blasphemy." He added that "there are other and considerably better ways to build 'bridges of understanding'" with Muslims.
In London, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims, a parliamentary group composed of members of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, issued a report , "A Very Merry Muslim Christmas," aimed at drawing attention to the "humanity" of Muslims during Christmas. The report states:
"Too often, Muslim charities come to our attention because of negative media coverage... What we hear even less about is the 'Muslim Merry Christmas.' The soup kitchens, the food banks, the Christmas dinners, the New Year clean-up — work Muslim charities will be busy doing during the Christmas period."
In Scotland, the regional government was accused of "undermining" Britain's Christian heritage by promoting "winter festivals" for ethnic minorities while ignoring Christmas. Scotland's International Development Minister, Alasdair Allan, pledged nearly £400,000 ($535,000) to fund 23 events during the winter months. He described them as "key dates in our national calendar" and said the "exciting and diverse" program would help Scots "celebrate everything great about our wonderful country during the winter months." None of the events, however, has any connection to Christmas. A spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland said :
"It is deeply disappointing that the Scottish Government has chosen not to recognize the religious reality of Christmas in its Winter Festival events. Over half of the population stated their religion as Christian in the last census. Catholics, and other Christians, may quite rightly wonder why this publicly-funded Festival does not include any events designed to help Scots celebrate the birth of Christ which is undoubtedly the most significant celebration in the winter months."
Gordon Macdonald, of Christian charity CARE, added :
"It is part of the general secularization that has been taking place within the Scottish Government for a number of years where our Christian heritage and value system has been undermined as a direct result of government policy."
In Denmark , a primary school in Graested cancelled a traditional church service marking the beginning of Christmas in order not to offend Muslim pupils. Some parents accused the school of having double-standards: it recently held an event called "Syria Week" in which children immersed themselves in Middle Eastern culture. Ignoring parents, the school board sided with the school:
"The board backs the school's decision to create new traditions [emphasis added] that involve children and young people."
Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen, who attended the school as a child, said the decision should be reversed. Health Minister Ellen Trane Norby added:
"Danish primary schools have a duty to spread education — and teaching the cultural values and knowledge connected to Christmas is an essential part of that."
In France , the annual Christmas market in the Croix-Rousse district of Lyon was cancelled because of exorbitant security costs associated with protecting the event from Islamic terror. The city's annual festival of lights did go ahead this year. The military governor of Lyon, General Pierre Chavancy, said that, because of the "sensitivity" of the event, 1,500 soldiers and police, backed up by dogs, river brigades and mine-clearers, would be deployed to provide security.
In neighboring Belgium , the head of the Red Cross in Liège, André Rouffart, ordered all 28 offices in the city to remove crucifixes to affirm the organization's secular identity. Critics said the decision was part of a broader effort to "modify certain terminologies" and to "break with our traditions and our roots" in order to appease Muslims. "We once said Christmas holidays, now we say winter holidays," said a local Red Cross volunteer. "The Christmas market in Brussels has been renamed 'Winter Pleasures.' Let things remain as they are."
In Germany , a school in Lüneburg postponed a Christmas party after a Muslim student complained that the singing of Christmas carols during school was incompatible with Islam. The school's decision to reschedule the event as a non-compulsory after-school activity generated "a flood of hate mail and even threats against school management and school board," according to Focus . In an effort to appease angry parents, Headmaster Friedrich Suhr said that "non-Christian" Christmas songs such as "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" would not be banned. Alexander Gauland, the leader of the anti-immigration Alternative for Germany (AfD), said the school's action was "an unbearable, involuntary submission to Islam" and amounted to a "cowardly injustice" toward non-Muslim children.
In Munich, ads for a multicultural "winter market" depicted a snowman covered in a burqa. The chairman of the AfD in Bavaria, Petr Bystron, noted the irony: "A burqa snowman as a tolerance symbol?" In Halle, the Christmas market was renamed "Wintermarket."
In Berlin, the traditional Christmas market was protected by walls of concrete barriers to prevent a repeat of last year's jihadist attack in which 12 people were killed and more than 50 injured. In Stuttgart, a 53-year-old man was arrested at the Christmas market after he claimed to carrying a bomb in his backpack. In Potsdam, the Christmas market was closed after a nearby pharmacy received a letter bomb. In Bonn, the Christmas market was evacuated due to a bomb threat.
In Italy , a school in Milan removed references to Christmas at a party and renamed the holiday as "The Great Festival of Happy Holidays." Writing on Facebook, local politician Samuele Piscina accused the school of implementing "a politically correct leftist policy" that deprives Italian children the joy of Christmas:
"After the nativity scenes and the crucifixes, now even Christmas parties are hindered in schools. The word 'Christmas,' a symbol of our faith and our culture, does not discriminate against anyone. Striking the emblems of Christmas does not guarantee anyone's respect, does not produce a welcoming and inclusive school and society, but fosters intolerance towards our culture, our customs, our laws and our traditions. We firmly believe that our traditions must be respected."
In Bolzano, a cardboard Christmas tree was ordered to be removed from the town hall because "it could have offended the sensibilities" of Muslims. A local politician, Alessandro Urzì, expressed outrage at the decision: "The bureaucratic rigor with which the tree was removed to avoid the risk of annoying someone reflects the barbarization of the cultural climate."
In Norway , a primary school in Skien announced that its Christmas festivities this year would include not only the usual reading by pupils of verses from the Bible but also two verses from the Koran which refer to Jesus. The inimitable Bruce Bawer explained the implications:
"Stigeråsen School's Christmas plans provide yet another example of dhimmitude : craven European submission to Islam. This year, there might be a couple of Koran verses in a Christmas show; next year, a yuletide event at which both religions are celebrated on an even footing; and not too many years after that, perhaps, a children's celebration at which there is no cross and no Christmas tree, only prayer rugs, benedictions in Arabic, and hijabs for the girls."
In Spain , the Madrid City Council replaced Christmas festivities in the capital with a neo-Pagan "International Fair of the Cultures." According to Madrid Mayor Manuela Carmena, a former member of Spain's Communist Party, the express purpose of the month-long event is to de-Christianize Christmas to make it more inclusive:
"We all know that Christmas is a festival of religious origin, but it is also a celebration of humanity, solidarity. Therefore, the Madrid City Council wants to do everything possible so that everyone who is in this city, from wherever they may be, can enjoy Christmas."
Breaking with tradition, the Madrid city hall also refused to place a nativity scene at the Puerta de Alcalá, one of the city's most iconic monuments. Local politician José Luis Martínez-Almeida accused Carmena of "enthusiastically collaborating in the celebration of Ramadan" but "trying to hide all the Christian symbols of Christmas." He added: "We want to reclaim our cultural and religious roots."
Soeren Kern is a Senior Fellow at the New York-based Gatestone Institute .
"Coming soon to a neighborhood near you"
Where are you coming from? Small town pumpkin festivals, food fairs and homecoming celebrations. across America are now routinely held behind police barricades and under the watchful eyes of law enforcement. Was the Las Vegas shooter motivated by Islamic passions? No, he was not. Was Dillon Root a Muslim fundamentalist? Nope, quite the opposite. Was that nut job who shot up that small town church in Texas a while back an Islamic extremist? Not in any way. Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols blew my home town off its axis twenty something years ago motivated by what? Right wing extremism as I remember. That is when I remember barricades becoming ubiquitious. Terror as we know it and the measures taken in response are part and parcel of modern life. Is extremism a problem? Oh, Hell Yeah it is. Unreasonable hatred of our others or any stripe does nothing to the wretched situtation we all live with regarding terror threats in public places. Falsely pointing your finger at one group sand one group only does nothing but exacerbate a real problem. Perhaps if we, the US and international forces, were not over there in Muslim countries minding their business blowing up property and People then Muslim fundamentalist would not be striking back over here. Perhaps if Muslims were not being demonized on social media as we see here things might improve. Do you like it when white westerners are demonized when some whack job right winger kills dozens or even hundreds of People? I did not think so. Are you part of the answer or are you part of the problem? As yourself that next time before posting tripe meant only to inflame the situation under such plainly false premises. Hate is the problem. Understanding and tolerance are the answers. Terror is a part of our modern world. Nobody likes it. No one group is to blame. Stop the hate to stop the terror threat. Got it yet?
Americans are great. They will do whatever it takes to do things better than anyone. Just show them what to do (as they have been shown by experts what terrorism is all about) and they will do whatever they can to excel at it. You're right to mention McVeigh. He proved that he's just as good if not better to do what those elsewhere have been so good at, like what Iran was able to accomplish in Buenos Aires Argentina. The Las Vegas shooting compared with the best of the terrorists overseas. Seems like quite a competition. Of course 9/11 is a tough act to follow. Thank God I won't be around to see where it's all heading.
Yep, you will just be in (supposedly) China and edging it on.
No, at my present age I'll most likely be dead. I really don't know what "edging it on" means.
Being old is not an excuse. I am heading there faster than I want to.
I guess egging on would have been a better phrase. Anyway, the meaning was, persisting and pushing a narrative from a safe distance.
Am I REALLY egging on terrorism in America? I thought I was a canary in that national coal mine.
A safe distance is correct. I feel a lot safer here than I would be most anywhere else, for sure safer than America, and even the way things are going these days in my own country, Canada.
Not a strong showing for trump then. I mean if people don't feel safe in the US....
Nobody packs heat here.
So then you are for gun control?
You do a lot of egging Buzz, and it's starting to get the eggnostics upset!
I just don't see how one could push for less gun regulations here and at the same time say that they love to be safe in a gun restricted zone.
LOL. I get a lot more action from that than I get from posting photos and articles about folk music and classic movies.
Okay, I'm an open book. I believe in reasonable gun controls and no death penalty (remember that I'm a Canadian), women having free choice concerning abortion, serious vetting immigration controls, supporting police and armed forces, punishing anti-Semitism defined by the Ottawa Protocol (which has been adopted by the U.S. State Department), absolute support and defence of Israel, cutting off financing the UN and its organizations except for what is necessary to maintain the right of veto in the Security Council, ending aid to all terrorist states, especially the Palestinians and Hamas until they seriously negotiate a peace deal with Israel, and that means their making concessions which they have NEVER done, and do whatever is necessary to make sure that Iran will NEVER have atomic weapons and I don't mean just for 10 or 12 years - I mean NEVER and whatever it takes to accomplish that. I'm sure there's more - just ask me.
You lost me with israel. They can kiss my ass. I say we stop giving them support.
Is getting some "action" on a seeded article on a social media site worthwhile if the motivation of the author is plainly to demonize one group of people the vast majority of whom are as innocent regarding our modern terror threats as are you and I? I won't be around forty or fifty years hense either but that does not mean that I am not impacted by the propagation of hate such as this article portends. Hate begats hate. Intolerance breeds contempt. Scapegoating is propaganda intent of causing the kind of raw feeling which lead to weak minds perpetrating horrible acts of terror based of feeling of political impotence in the face of tribal bullshit. Our world is violent. Mental illness is epehemic. Guns are easy to get as a loaf of bread. Practically everyone has a potentially deadly vehicle. Becoming a terrorist is not that hard anymore. Why some become terrorists is the question and so forgive me for noting that I believe that articles such as this one are without a doubt contibutors to the bigger problem we all suffer...
Maybe you would feel less safe there if the government didn’t control the media and actually reported how many of their own citizens they murder each year. The commies in China are reported here to put to death more of their own people than any other country. Nobody packs heat there and that is why they can’t get rid of the tyrannical commies.
I won't ignore and/or deny the terror that's going on in this world. I've witnessed it with my own eyes. But for the grace of God my children survived it. I don't live in a cocoon.
I have the advantage of living here and experiencing life here - you read about it in media that you yourself have to admit is biased.
And so, you've lost me as well and I'm sure you don't give a shit and neither do I.
Let us know when China isn’t number one in killing their own people. In the meantime more power to the defectors that make it out of that hellhole to freedom like this guy.
If one thinks that the Jewish religion must be protected at all costs but thinks the Muslim religion is evil then there is no discussion.
Funny that they are all Abrahamic religions.
I have no love for fundamentalist extremists whether they are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, Rastafarians or whatever. I have no problem with those of ANY faith or non-faith who are NOT fundamentalist extremists and are peaceful. So you have NO RIGHT to label me as a hater, thinking that Islam is evil.
I don't intend to subscribe to the Financial Times (which is necessary to read the article). If you want anyone to read what you linked copy the article and post it.
Sorry Buzz, Skirting the CoC [ph] Islam is the most apparent and obvious part of your psyche. I wish you would make an adjustment here, you're a wonderful person in every other respect.
No, no, you were NOT edging Buzz, you were egging, definitely!
I'm really getting tired of explaining that I have no love for fundamentalist extremists, and that includes terrorists of ANY religion. You are insulting me by saying I hate Muslims. I would put my life in the hands of a devout Muslim like Dr. Jasser, and I don't dislike any Muslim who is peaceful and does not support the radical extremists.
I have been attacked and insulted on this article by others who are insinuating and calling me a hater and a racist, a hater of a religion other than my own. That is so ridiculous. I believe I am less racist and more tolerant of religion other than my own than almost every member of NT. I have been happily married to a Chinese woman, and as you can see from my avatar I am not Chinese, for 9 years, and live comfortably with her family who are devout Buddhists and I am not a Buddhist. However, another way I differ from my accusers is that I have seen a bus bombing and its aftermath, and both my children in separate incidents only by the grace of God narrowly escaped being blown to bits by Palestinian bombs. So you all may be right that not only do I not tolerate radical Islamic terrorism I will continue to warn everyone I can about its spread and the results of it. Those who accuse me are the ones who show intolerance because they ignore that I have made it clear that I do NOT hate peaceful Muslims, who are the VAST majority of those practising Islam, and you cannot shame me into accepting or tolerating radical Islamic terrorism, or from preaching against it. IMO those who accuse me of hatred or even intolerance have taken the same course by their accusations of me as persons who would kill the canary in the coal mine, or blow the head of Paul Revere off while on his famous ride.
I have been attacked and insulted on this article by others who are insinuating and calling me a hater and a racist, a hater of a religion other than my own. That is so ridiculous. I believe I am less racist and more tolerant of religion other than my own than almost every member of NT. I have been happily married to a Chinese woman, and as you can see from my avatar I am not Chinese, for 9 years, and live comfortably with her family who are devout Buddhists and I am not a Buddhist. However, another way I differ from my accusers is that I have seen a bus bombing and its aftermath, and both my children in separate incidents only by the grace of God narrowly escaped being blown to bits by Palestinian bombs. So you all may be right that not only do I not tolerate radical Islamic terrorism I will continue to warn everyone I can about its spread and the results of it. Those who accuse me are the ones who show intolerance because they ignore that I have made it clear that I do NOT hate peaceful Muslims, who are the VAST majority of those practising Islam, and you cannot shame me into accepting or tolerating radical Islamic terrorism, or from preaching against it. IMO those who accuse me of hatred or even intolerance have taken the same course by their accusations of me as persons who would kill the canary in the coal mine, or blow the head of Paul Revere off while on his famous ride.
Alas, the seeded article is not about radical Islam. But you have your opinion that it is, and Perrie says all opinions are equally valid, not matter what they are, so I guess you are in luck Buzz. Be glad you posted this on NT.
I have been accused by others on this article to hate Muslims, and my response is to that. The article is about submission to the spread of a way of life that forces people to give up their traditions and customs that have brought them happiness for ages. My posting it is to provide news that the mainstream media, due to excessive PC, refuse to provide.
But you say you have nothing against Islam in general, yet you seeded an anti-Muslim article.
I have thought about your point further and realized that I did not reply to it sufficiently. When Muslim countries refuse to allow the practice of other religions, disallow, even demolish, the existence of their places of worship, and when they go so far as to discriminate against others by not even allowing those who have a certain stamp in their passport to even enter their country, those who disallow victorious Israelis in International sports tournaments to hear their anthem played and see their flag flown, then when they start to populate countries that have existed for centuries with happily followed traditions, where those persons are in a very small minority, but require that those traditions be ended because they find them "offensive", and that customs and traditions of that minority be installed everywhere on an equal (in fact PRIVILEGED footing, such as prayer rooms) and there is government submission to those demands by the minority, then THAT is what I will continue to point out. Have Jews demanded that businesses be closed on Saturday, and public transportation be stilled? Governments would LAUGH at them if they did. Did you see the article that Sixpick posted about barricading and carrying out massive security at the British and European marketplaces? Do you deny what it is necessary? Because of differing birth rates, demographics are bound to change drastically during this century, and I'm glad I wont be alive to see the results of that.
At least you're consistent, John. You say that I call anyone who criticizes Israel (even if I agree with those criticisms) an anti-Semite, and you call anything I post that reports the submission by governments and others to their Islamification Islamophobia. I commend you for your consistency, and criticize you for your mistaken premise.
Great seed Buzz. It was right on and a very good read. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Because of the accusations made against me by some, I intend to DOUBLE UP on these kinds of articles, bringing attention to the critics of facts that the mainstream media considers too un-PC and disturbing for those who do not believe in reality.
Double up? Come on man, you have to at least quadruple up if you want to be taken seriously.
Please don't double down on your worst quality Buzz.
Benny the Knitting Yahoo is nothing but a terrorist himself!
Why did you lock your article, John? Were you afraid of how others felt about it? I'm not afraid to continue posting what I post notwithstanding what the result. I wanted to comment on your article, but I was blocked.
Too many comments did not address the topic.
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Overheard: Trump isn't hard to predict. In any given situation, just ask yourself, "What would be the total dick move be?" and you'll be right most of the time.
Look Lenny, although when you first joined NT I thought your comments were really nasty, but in time I've come to like you, and if you accepted friends (which you don't) I would have so applied. I understand that we have different feelings about what I post, but I don't limit my articles or comments to politics and religion, and very few people these days give a shit about photography or classic movies or folk music or literature, but that's an indication of their limitations, so I will not stop posting the political and/or religious articles that I do in order to reach the vast majority of limited-interest NT members.
Long live the great nation of Israel. It is an awesome nation with freedom, democracy, high tech, first world economy, solutions to economic and environmental issues, and is a global leader.
It's standard operating practice Buzz, designed as you've said to shut you down.
I've spoken with you since the old NV days, the claims of you being a hater, and a racist are B/s.
I think most who know you would agree.
It's okay, AFM. Their comments encourage me to DOUBLE the amount of articles I post about the TRUTH of what is going on around the world.
I think what they are saying is that there were people while Obama was president that quite literally hoped and prayed for terrorist attacks so they could blame Obama for it. Maybe not publicly, but I can say I DID hear someone in a public place say they hoped for more terrorist attacks because they said it would prove that Obama is a Muslim. You can call BS if you like, but I did hear someone say that, as did my wife and a few other horrified patrons.
In my opinion, notwithstanding anything Obama ever said in the hope of gaining Jewish votes, Obama was pro-Palestinian and pro-Muslim, but I didn't think he was really anti-Israel (he just hated Bibi) until the end of his term, but I would never have even thought that he would encourage attacks to be made on Israelis. I never doubted he was a Christian, even though he made the point that he would stand with the Muslims.
As for the comments you heard, we all know that there are people who say the stupidest things.
Jesus and Isa ibm Maryam are the very same person.
Allegedly the same person, there is a difference.
Islam usurped Jesus, and the Jewish prophets, there is zero evidence beyond the reported claim of Muhammad for any of this.
Please note, the Quran isn't a claim Muhammad made, we simply have the report that he did so.
However
Logically from a Christian point of view Islam can only be seen as heretical, a fallacy, or an outright falsehood.
To accept the validity of Islam denies a central pillar of Christianity.
Yes, Islam accepts Christians/Jews as people of the book, after all Islam is the one borrowing from these religions.
It should be noted I think they're all nonsense.
Christianity borrows from and usurps Judaism in the same way that Islam borrows from Christianity. Jews don't believe in Jesus as their savior, despite his lineage.
I don't believe in any of the nonsense but the religious lineage and their historical connection of the 3 Abrahamic religions are obvious.
Not quite, Christianity doesn't to the best of my knowledge claim Moses et al were Christian. I don't even think Christianity can make a believable claim that Jesus was a Christian.
Does Christianity use what it terms as the Old Testament?
Yes, but Christianity grew out of Judaism, there is an unavoidable link.
Does the same link exist for Islam?
Was Muhammad born Jewish, or Christian?
Did Islam as established (allegedly) by Muhammad exist as a sect of either?
No.
Jews don't believe in Jesus as their savior, despite his lineage.
Alleged lineage, or if you prefer a claimed lineage.
I don't believe in any of the nonsense but the religious lineage and their historical connection of the 3 Abrahamic religions are obvious.
See above, really there isn't an historical link in the case of Islam, there is a claimed link, nothing more. In short Christianity did grow out of Judaism, but Islam didn't, if anything it grew out of the local Arab pantheon.
From a nonbelievers point of view, claiming there is a link between the god of Islam, and the god of Judaism/Christianity, is akin to claiming a link between imaginary friends.
Another anti-Islam piece - coming to a neighborhood near you?
What goes around, comes around ?
Thank you, Tessylo, for your comment. It encourages me to DOUBLE the number of articles I post about the TRUTH of what is happening around the world.
A lot less likely to happen here with Obama gone and Trump giving them the cold shoulder.
Freedom of religion and please don't tell me you endorse racism/bigotry?
It's not tolerance; it's oppression. It's PC run amok. Sorry to say it, but it's a war on Christmas and Christianity. No other holiday is being changed to Winter This or Holiday That. No one actually cares that it's winter, and it's time to stop pretending that anyone does.
It's only Christmas that gets changed to Winter or Holiday.
There's no need to create some kind of syncretic Islamic Christmas. It's not an Islamic event. It's Christmas and if you are Muslim, you are free to ignore it. No one is trying to include Christians in Ramadan, Yom Kippur, or any other holiday from another religion. If it's not being done to other religions, it's time we acknowledge that there is something special happening with regard to Christian holidays and culture. We should be celebrating that culture, not trying to sweep it under the rug.
Because "Christmas" has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus.
Read your beloved bible. The description of what was going on when Jesus was born is not winter.
Of course it does. That's silly. Otherwise it would be called Somethingelsemas.
That's not relevant to why we have the celebration. We choose to have the celebration at a certain time of year, but the celebration is not tied to the calendar. It's about the event, not a change of seasons.
Not everything that is celebrated at a certain time has to do with the event happening at that exact time. For example, the first Thanksgiving probably didn't happen the third week of November or even in November at all. Neither was it specifically on a Thursday. But that's ok because we aren't celebrating November or Thursdays. It's just when we chose to observe the holiday.
You're not blowing the lid off Christmas by suggesting Jesus was born at a different time of year. We already know that. The least important thing about the birth of Jesus is what time of year it happened.
As I said above, read the bible.
Because the original celebration was a Pagan one. And like other Pagan rituals, celebrations and temples, the Christians had to destroy it.
I'm not. The bible does.
LMAO. Try telling the other Christians that.
So, you admit that Christians are thieves.
It is called something else, Yule and, the Winter Solstice.
The Christians stole it from us.
Sue us!
I think his point was that the holiday most Christians claim is their own is just borrowed traditions worshiping other Gods that have nothing to do with their faith and are something Christians in the past considered pagan celebrations and rejected them. I say go ahead and celebrate the relabeled pagan holidays, the ancient Roman God Saturn won't even notice you changed his name as long as you keep his traditions alive.
"It is now the month of December, when the greatest part of the city is in a bustle. Loose reins are given to public dissipation; everywhere you may hear the sound of great preparations, as if there were some real difference between the days devoted to Saturn and those for transacting business. … Were you here, I would willingly confer with you as to the plan of our conduct; whether we should eve in our usual way, or, to avoid singularity, both take a better supper and throw off the toga" - Seneca the Younger
"Roman Emperor Augustus was particularly fond of gift giving and the Children received toys as gifts. In his many poems about the Saturnalia, Martial names both expensive and quite cheap gifts, including writing tablets, dice, knucklebones, moneyboxes, combs, toothpicks, a hat, a hunting knife, an axe, various lamps, balls, perfumes, pipes, a pig, a sausage, a parrot, tables, cups, spoons, items of clothing, statues, masks, books, and pets. Gifts might be as costly as a slave or exotic animal, but Martial suggests that token gifts of low intrinsic value inversely measure the high quality of a friendship. Patrons or "bosses" might pass along a gratuity (sigillaricium) to their poorer clients or dependents to help them buy gifts. Some emperors were noted for their devoted observance of the Sigillaria" -
So back then, Christians may have actually been the gifts, not the ones giving them.
Thanx. I do find it interesting that Christians celebrate a holiday where they were possibly a part of the gifts that were given.
I have. So what?
Christmas for Christians is to celebrate the birth of Christ. That's all. Pagans never celebrated the birth of Christ.
Nothing has been destroyed. You are free to celebrate whatever Pagan ritual floats your boat.
Right. So stop acting like you're telling people something they don't know.
Maybe you should justify your sanctimonious preaching by finding Christians who care what day of the year we celebrate the birth versus what day it actually happened. I don't think you'll find a lot of Christians who think the story of Christ is somehow undone because he was born in April.
No, actually Yule is Yule and the Winter Solstice is the Winter Solstice. Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
Sometimes when my birthday falls on a Tuesday we have a party for it on Saturday. It's convenient. It doesn't mean I am trying to take Saturday's meaning away from anyone. However, since fewer people work on Saturdays, it might be a lot easier for more people to come to my party. When we have that party, the day of the week versus the day of my birth will be the least important thing about the celebration.
Such drama! Nothing has been stolen from you. Go celebrate whatever you want to celebrate. You don't need the permission of Christians to do it.
That's an idiotic statement. Why would they?
If you say so.
A little honesty would be nice but, hey, who expects that from Christians. You want everybody to believe that the god in the bible is "loving and forgiving"
Who cares? When the Super Bowl is on, I might want to watch the football game, but some of my guests are just there for the commercials or the snacks. My football game has nothing to do with what they want to celebrate. Am I supposed to whine that they are stealing my football game from me?
Winter is Bethlehem is not exactly the same as winter in Canada.
I do not recall anyone being sued much less jailed for expressing sincere glad tidings. I guess if I were oblivious it would be understandable if I were to greet my Buddist, Hindu and Jewish neighbors with a big olde hearty, "Merry Christmas". I am sure nobody would mind even if they would think I was off my rocker or being insensitive. I guess it is pretty simple for backwaters to believe everyone is just like them since everyone they know in Bumhump belongs to their faith. It isn't so everywhere in the US...
Right. Suggesting that the original celebration of the birth of Jesus was something else is idiotic.
It's not dishonest. We choose to celebrate the thing when we choose to celebrate it. Do you honestly think I care what month we celebrate the birth of Jesus?? I definitely do not. What does it matter to you?
What did Christians steal by celebrating someone's birthday? Are you aware that holidays and birthdays are not a zero sum game? It's not like there is some kind of universal law that says only one thing can be celebrated at a time and if you want to celebrate something else, you have to wait your turn. That's why today can be National Candy Cane Day, National Thank You Note Day, National Boxing Day, and National Whiners Day . Four in one day! Guess which one I think you'll be observing?
Come on, we both know what game they are playing--anything to denigrate Christianity.
I wonder what exactly they are so afraid of?
I have never feared the Lord!
He is love and He is forgiving.
Is anyone stopping anyone from celebrating Yule, or saturnalia in December now? No. Stop attacking Christians for choosing to celebrate the birth of our savior in December. Enjoy your plate of spaghetti topped of with Ramen.
They've not been called "Eskimos" for many years now. They are called "Inuit" (although the well-known ice cream treat is most likely still called "Eskimo pies").
Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Christians stole that date and most of the tradition of the holiday from the pagans because it would make it easier to convert them. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest. To claim that you are being persecuted because people tell the truth about the origin of Christmas is assinine.
Why don't you tell the truth for once and admit that you don't know the day and the month that Jesus was supposed to be born so the Christian church moved it to a date that was politically advantageous?
Until you piss him off and he destroys your city or floods the planet. He's loving and forgiving and vindictive and jealous and malevolent....
I'd say the odds are roughly 1 in 365 that he was. Could be more, though. Could be less.
OK Deep breath, alright? You can't "steal" a date or a tradition. You can join in - or not. That's about it. If you want to practice a pagan tradition on December 25th, no one will stop you.
You say that like it's self evident, but I don't see how it is. Having Hanukkah in December isn't making me want to be Jewish. Having Kwanzaa at that time isn't making me want to be whatever it is people who celebrate that are. Gay pride parades look like fun - and I love a parade! - but they aren't making me want to be gay. So, I'm not sure what the science is underpinning your theory.
And even if it were part of the effort to convert people, so what? That's a thing Christians do. We try to share the gospel with people. We want everyone to partake for their own good, not ours. It's not like we get a free month of Netflix for every convert.
I don't know any Christians who think telling the truth about Christmas is persecution. I sure haven't said so. However, I must point out that your theories and opinions about Christmas are not all necessarily the truth.
My goodness, I have never said otherwise. the Bible is unclear on the point. All I have said about it is that it doesn't matter and that's what the other Christians here have been saying. There's nothing to "admit." The day and the month? Heck, we're not even sure what year it was.
The history of the date for Christmas - be it in or out of the Bible is unclear and there are many theories as to why some churches settled on the 25th of December. Your "theft" theory is hardly the only one. I'd like to point out that not all churches even celebrate it on that day and several churches throughout history have either ignored it or banned the celebration entirely. Really, Easter is more important.
Here is a little internet article on some of the many theories for the date of Christmas:
Why is Christmas Day on the 25th December?
I hope you find it illuminating, but remember that the actual date of Jesus' birth - even though we celebrate in on a specific date - is one of the least important things about him.
Pagans aren't Pastafarians. Ramen is a Japanese noodle soup, so you cannot top spaghetti with soup.
:double facepalm:
Give it a rest.
Yule is the pagan celebration of the winter solistace. Should I explain the winter solistace to you?
I'd rather that Christmas begin to tell the truth about the origins of the Christmas holiday. The celebration of Christmas on the 25th was banned by conservative Christians because the understood it to be a pagan holiday. Christians traditionally celebrated Jesus's birthday on the Epiphany. The Eastern OrthadoxChritians still celebrate on that day.
Nope. Don't care. I don't celebrate the shortest day of the year. It means nothing to me.
I celebrate the birth of the son of God who walked the Earth as a human so he could understand our experience and be tempted like us, and then take on the burden of our sins for us. That's what I celebrate.
The fact that I might do it with rich food, singing, and lights - just like people celebrating other things - is thoroughly unimportant.
Actually - this being a free country and all - you can top your spaghetti with whatever you like.
It amazes me how so many self-proclaimed non-religious people have so much to say about the rules of religion. Kinda ironic.
Is the solstice on the 25th of December? Is it even on the very same day every year?
Pastafarians do not eat ramen on their spaghetti. I know this because I am a Pastafarian. R'amen is a humorous portmanteau of the Christian amen.
I'd be banned until 2020 if I say anything else.
LMAO!!!
The day and time varies, but it is never as late as the 25th.
And December 25 is just a few days into winter or the end of fall. We don’t know the climate in the Middle East back then exactly and perhaps that particular fall/ early winter was warmer than average?
Well, "no true pastafarian" anyway.
I wonder what will be happening when we are approaching Easter. It's bound to offend a lot of people.
The fact that any of it offends anyone mystifies me. There are religious holidays throughout the year from a variety of religions. Not one of them offends me. I simply don't observe the ones that have nothing to do with what I believe.
THAT'S because you are truly tolerant--not merely bleating about how tolerant you are. Sure wish the perpetually offended people would learn how to deal with life like that.
Nor I. It's a joy to see and even participate in the peaceful holiday celebrations of others. Even though my family is not Christian, when our children were little we decorated and lit up a Christmas tree in our living room, seen from outside, and hung their stockings from the fireplace mantle. The best part for me was eating the cookies and drinking the milk left for Santa once the kids when to sleep.
The next "holiday" (holy day) to be attacked by those who are offended by fucking near everything will probably be EASTER, because, after all, it's a CHRISTIAN holiday. I read quite a while ago that egg-hunts were cancelled in some places, as were egg decorating, because we have to be INCLUSIVE. I know that in a few months I'll be reading stories about the cancellation of traditional customs and events because.....(I'll leave that up to your imagination).
You are right. I am so happy to live in my part of the U.S. where we just trudge along doing our thing and people just aren't bothered with all of this.
The next "holiday" (holy day) to be attacked by those who are offended by fucking near everything will probably be EASTER, because, after all, it's a CHRISTIAN holiday. I read quite a while ago that egg-hunts were cancelled in some places, as were egg decorating, because we have to be INCLUSIVE. I know that in a few months I'll be reading stories about the cancellation of traditional customs and events because.....(I'll leave that up to your imagination).
Most historians, including Biblical scholars, agree that Easter was originally a pagan festival. According to the New Unger’s Bible Dictionary says: “The word Easter is of Saxon origin, Eastra, the goddess of spring, in whose honor sacrifices were offered about Passover time each year. By the eighth century Anglo–Saxons had adopted the name to designate the celebration of Christ’s resurrection.”
According to some scholars, such as Dr. Tony Nugent, teacher of Theology and Religious Studies at Seattle University, and Presbyterian minister, the Easter story comes from the Sumerian legend of Damuzi (Tammuz) and his wife Inanna (Ishtar), an epic myth called “The Descent of Inanna” found inscribed on cuneiform clay tablets dating back to 2100 BC. When Tammuz dies, Ishtar is grief–stricken and follows him to the underworld. In the underworld, she enters through seven gates, and her worldly attire is removed. "Naked and bowed low" she is judged, killed, and then hung on display. In her absence, the earth loses its fertility, crops cease to grow and animals stop reproducing. Unless something is done, all life on earth will end.
After Inanna has been missing for three days her assistant goes to other gods for help. Finally one of them Enki, creates two creatures who carry the plant of life and water of life down to the Underworld, sprinkling them on Inanna and Damuzi, resurrecting them, and giving them the power to return to the earth as the light of the sun for six months. After the six months are up, Tammuz returns to the underworld of the dead, remaining there for another six months, and Ishtar pursues him, prompting the water god to rescue them both. Thus were the cycles of winter death and spring life.
The most widely-practiced customs on Easter Sunday relate to the symbol of the rabbit (‘Easter bunny’) and the egg. As outlined previously, the rabbit was a symbol associated with Eostre, representing the beginning of Springtime. Likewise, the egg has come to represent Spring, fertility and renewal. In Germanic mythology, it is said that Ostara healed a wounded bird she found in the woods by changing it into a hare. Still partially a bird, the hare showed its gratitude to the goddess by laying eggs as gifts.
The Encyclopedia Britannica clearly explains the pagan traditions associated with the egg: “The egg as a symbol of fertility and of renewed life goes back to the ancient Egyptians and Persians, who had also the custom of colouring and eating eggs during their spring festival.” In ancient Egypt, an egg symbolized the sun, while for the Babylonians, the egg represents the hatching of the Venus Ishtar, who fell from heaven to the Euphrates.
While many of the pagan customs associated with the celebration of Spring were at one stage practised alongside Christian Easter traditions, they eventually came to be absorbed within Christianity, as symbols of the resurrection of Jesus. The First Council of Nicaea (325) established the date of Easter as the first Sunday after the full moon (the Paschal Full Moon) following the March equinox.
By the way, I'm not attacking it, just pointing out that its roots aren't all that Christian as it's another borrowed holiday.
Thanks DP. I've learned something today I never before knew.
skirting the CoC [ph]
This article and the debate that ensued, underscores what I keep saying about religions. They are divisive. They pit groups of people against each other. Wouldn't it be nice if the warm feelings of Christmas could be shared by ALL the people in the world? They're not, in case you don't know that.
I have been attacked and insulted on this article by others who are insinuating and calling me a hater and a racist, a hater of a religion other than my own. That is so ridiculous. I believe I am less racist and more tolerant of religion other than my own than almost every member of NT. I have been happily married to a Chinese woman, and as you can see from my avatar I am not Chinese, for 9 years, and live comfortably with her family who are devout Buddhists and I am not a Buddhist. However, another way I differ from my accusers is that I have seen a bus bombing and its aftermath, and both my children in separate incidents only by the grace of God narrowly escaped being blown to bits by Palestinian bombs. So you all may be right that not only do I not tolerate radical Islamic terrorism I will continue to warn everyone I can about its spread and the results of it. Those who accuse me are the ones who show intolerance because they ignore that I have made it clear that I do NOT hate peaceful Muslims, who are the VAST majority of those practising Islam, and you cannot shame me into accepting or tolerating radical Islamic terrorism, or from preaching against it. IMO those who accuse me of hatred or even intolerance have taken the same course by their accusations of me as persons who would kill the canary in the coal mine, or blow the head of Paul Revere off while on his famous ride.