The teenagers taking on the US gun lobby

The shooter killed   17 people.   Others are still fighting for their lives in hospital.

It's become an   almost unremarkable event   in modern America: This was already the sixth school shooting of 2018 in the US.

It's become an almost unremarkable event in modern America:

Yes, very recently. Just in the last decade or two.

Meanwhile, we have had firearms since before the country was founded. The semi-automatic rifle was developed in 1885 and in wide use by the early 1900s. Yet somehow we managed to avoid shooting up the schools for decades.

So there is little logic in the idea that the gun is the problem. Firearm technology is largely unchanged in the last 100 years. Logic, then should turn us to look at the people committing these crimes. Unfortunately, gun grabbers are not interested in responsibility or finding out why a person murders schoolchildren. Get back to me when the Left is interested in actually solving the problem.

So there is little logic in the idea that the gun is the problem. Firearm technology is largely unchanged in the last 100 years. Logic, then should turn us to look at the people committing these crimes. Unfortunately, gun grabbers are not interested in responsibility or finding out why a person murders schoolchildren. Get back to me when the Left is interested in actually solving the problem.

But here's a question-- Europe doesn't have nearly the number of school shooting we do. (In fact, I wonder if they've had even one the past few months-- or year?) So how do you explain the difference between them and the U.S.?So

Too much binge watching of Die Hard, Rambo etc.

Firearm accessibility is a portion of the problem, the glorification of violence is the crux of the issue I feel.

So how do you explain the difference between them and the U.S.?

People. Society. Culture. There are many reasons beyond the gun.

America's poor , for example, appear to have a harder time of it than poor people in other parts of the world.

We have something like a million gang members , generally based on race.

Mental Health. The United States appears to have a more pervasive problem with mental health than pretty much any country on Earth.

Our politics of no responsibility. Everyone's problems are someone else's fault. From the Great Depression onward, we have become more and more expectant that government or some other authority will provide any opportunity we desire and correct any problem we have. That's why a 19 year old can blame the school for his getting expelled instead of pointing his finger at the mirror.

Standard of Living. For most of the last half of the 20th century, the US had the highest standard of living in the world . Now, it's 19th. And it's not just that being 19th is bad. You have to consider that the current generation is growing up knowing about our affluent recent past, but not being able to realize the fruits of the expectations that go along with that knowledge. That's depressing.

One author thinks that it's our culture to stoically tolerate awful events and so we are desensitized to the violence around us. There might be something to that.

Check FBI statistics, as I have, and you'll find that our murder rate with non-firearm weapons alone is higher than Europe's total murder rate. That means that with or without guns, we would be killing more people than they do.

I have also seen homicide statistics for other English speaking countries (with much tougher gun policies) from a century ago. We often look to these countries for comparison and say "they have tough gun laws and lower rates of homicide than we do so we should copy them." But the thing is, these countries had lower murder rates than America before they instituted their gun restrictions. The violence is clearly an American trait and it is probably due to a number of characteristics that are uniquely American.

But there may be hope. Violent crime is actually down over the last few decades and at its lowest rate since the late 50s/early 60s. Sometimes we are simply more aware of a problem that has always been there. I'm not saying this is the case with school shootings specifically. That is actually a recent phenomenon and, I think, more related to the factors listed above. As I indicated before, this is logical because popular ownership of semi-automatic firearms is not a recent development.

Firearm accessibility is a portion of the problem, the glorification of violence is the crux of the issue I feel.

IMO its both.

IMO its both.

I'd say "ONE" !

How many times do we see that the authorities looked on the murders "Social Page" to find out his thoughts and to see what they have been perusing !

"Social Media" is....and will be..... our "Constant" Death sentences.

"It's become an  almost unremarkable event  in modern America: This was already the sixth school shooting of 2018 in the US."

There have already been more since, but then what the hell, what else is new in the USA?

msn

Buzz,

Please note that the shooter in Maryland, before he could do much damage, ran into a good guy with a gun, who did not run and hide, and the shooter is now dead.  This is the way these shootings are supposed to end.

"This is the way these shootings are supposed to end."

But they shouldn't even start. In all my years of school I don't recall ever even hearing about a school shooting.

Unfortunately, that particular shooter accomplished his intention before the "good guy" stopped him.

But they shouldn't even start. In all my years of school I don't recall ever even hearing about a school shooting.

So what do you think accounts for the fact that there are so many school shootings in the U>S.-- and virtuslly none in Canada? Why the big difference between the 2 countries?

You're wrong about "virtually none" in Canada. Although I can't recall any from when I was in school, one of the worst school shootings happened in Montreal in 1989:

en.wikipedia

There have been others since, but none with such great loss of life.

The shooter killed   17 people.   Others are still fighting for their lives in hospital. This was already the sixth school shooting of 2018 in the US.

But this time was different. Because instead of just accepting it for part of daily life, this group of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds decided that guns were tearing apart communities and that too many innocent people were dying.

This is the story of how they started a political movement in just a month.

They have a clear message:   "Never Again".

this group of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds decided that guns were tearing apart communities

Well then it's a good thing that we don't rely on 16, 17 and 18 year-olds to determine public policy, because the idea that guns are tearing apart their communities is silly. The gun doesn't spontaneously take itself to a school and murder people all on its own. People who don't care about the difference between right and wrong are what tear apart communities, not a piece of steel. The other thing that tears apart communities is the wave of knee-jerk leftism sweeping the country.

But this time was different.

This time it is different.  Law enforcement KNEW this kid would be a problem, and did nothing.  But lets go after the gun lobby instead of the assholes who had all the information they needed and just stood outside the school.

This is the story of how they started a political movement in just a month.

They started a political movement? and in just a month? 

At first, I have to say was quite impressed with the young people taking a stand after Parkland -- but by the weekend after multiple interviews, I began to feel that these conversations had already taken place .. the thoughts of the spokespersons were already well rehearsed, as if I was watching the debate team (my son spends hours going over/rehearsing his arguments on various subject matters) 

They have a clear message:

Yes it is .. the only way to make 'our' schools safe requires gun legislation, the mentally ill being exposed along with raising the age etc ... keep hearing nothing has changed since Sandy Hook ... ummm yes it has, the school is now safe, realistic safety measures are now in place, it should not take a tragedy to implement these measures ...

Here is an interesting read ...

School safety march scheduled for Jackson

“This has been a pretty strong issue with me, and probably most Americans, for a long time,” Andrus said. “Sandy Hook was just heartbreaking. But we haven’t seen much of any changes, real changes, that can make a difference with our legislators. Now that this shooting happened on Feb. 14 in Florida, it’s really been a huge wake-up call for everybody. We feel like very little has changed.”
The organizers have three main changes they’re pushing for: raising the age to purchase a firearm from 18 to 21, including mental health screenings in background checks and banning purchases of military-style assault weapons.
“It is really essential, when it comes to background checks, that it isn’t just looking at a person’s criminal record or criminal background,” Andrus said. “It really needs to extend to mental health.”
She acknowledged that the third point — banning military-style assault weapons — is controversial for many people, especially in a conservative, rural state like Wyoming.
“It has nothing to do with taking people’s gun rights away from them,” Andrus said. “That’s really not what this movement is about.”

She hopes people can acknowledge the common ground they share.
“Everybody wants their kids to be safe, whatever side they’re coming from,” Andrus said. “Everyone wants to make our schools safer.”
How to do that is up for discussion. High school students walked out of class March 14 to raise awareness for school safety as part of a national school walkout, while school district staff are discussing how to make school buildings physically safer and address students’ mental health.

Less than 1% of annual mass shootings are committed by the seriously mentally ill ... but including that information in a background check will somehow make schools safer?

Schools have always been designed with safety in mind - one central entrance, with multiple exit only doors .. if an individual has NO business in the school - do not let them in!

Did you see where Parkland students are now required to have clear backpacks?  How is this making the school safer?  Will the intruder on campus be wearing a see through trench coat?

Thanks for letting me vent!

Tweeting "thoughts and prayers"   wouldn't be enough this time.

It was a real movement, with real people, in real life.

don't know what percentage of the voting populous they would make up , if it is more than 2% annually , and they don't change their minds on positions  over time , I would be surprised , I do take them seriously and support their right to voice an opinion , I do not however support their ideas on how to go about getting their ideas a reality, it is hard for me to get over that just a few short weeks before the shooting , members of this age group were eating laundry detergent pods on dares.....

it is hard for me to get over that just a few short weeks before the shooting , members of this age group were eating laundry detergent pods on dares.....

I have no idea what age you are-- but whatever age it is, I'm sure there are ?members of your age group" who are doing really stupid things-- and members of my age group as well. 

And if you are a Trump supporter, remember this-- there are many people of his age group that constantly do dumb stuff...but so what?

don't know what percentage of the voting populous they would make up ,

I have no idea. Although I was quite a political activist at approximately their age....and am fairly familiar with the differences between activists of this age group and "old people" (i.e. anyone over 30).

But they are extremely motivated, So potentially each one of them could influence a large number of people in their family. Their friends. etc.

if it is more than 2% annually

What percentage they are...annually? I believe you may be confusing the percentage interest they are getting on their investments with the percentage of the population?

Or if you are referring to how much their numbers (% of population) will increase annually, I have no idea. But there's an old saying:

Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come.

LOL yep definitely people of all age groups do stupid things , for the record , the number is 56 , sometimes I feel older , sometimes I don't feel that old , as for the stupidest thing I have ever done , in retrospect? getting married, period.

also for the record didn't vote for trump , but didn't vote for Clinton either , but I did vote.

The power of an idea whose time has come , is its ability to change the minds of those opposed to it , not to preach to the choir so to speak , so far they are preaching to those that already agree with them , if they change others minds in sufficient numbers is yet to be seen.

I'm curious why they don't take this kind of stand for bullying in their schools.

I'm curious why they don't take this kind of stand for bullying in their schools.

Perhaps because everyone in that school experienced what they did. Many saw there's close friends gunned down-- some at close range. Murdered and/or seriously maimed for life. And this may surprise some people-- but my guess is that experience has effected them more strongly than seeing bullying, as bad as that is. 

Perhaps because everyone in that school experienced what they did. Many saw there's close friends gunned down-- some at close range. Murdered and/or seriously maimed for life. And this may surprise some people-- but my guess is that experience has effected them more strongly than seeing bullying, as bad as that is.

Then I think they should have directed the march to those responsible.  (Just a hint, it's not the NRA or an inanimate object.)  But that still doesn't settle my curiosity, more kids take their own lives as a result of bullying than in this shooting.  But suddenly they all come together to demand something that will go ignored anyway.

Enjoy your time in charge because soon these young people will be in charge and your opinions will be as irrelevant to them as you think theirs are to you right now.

This blind devotion is baffling........and foolish. 

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In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence.

While that is still part of the organization's core function, today less than half of the NRA's revenues come from program fees and membership dues.

The bulk of the group's money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources.

Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala's, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson.

The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertising to industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990.

Additionally, some companies donate portions of sales directly to the NRA. Crimson Trace, which makes laser sights, donates 10 percent of each sale to the NRA. Taurus buys an NRA membership for everyone who buys one of their guns. Sturm Rugar gives $1 to the NRA for each gun sold, which amounts to millions. The NRA's revenues are intrinsically linked to the success of the gun business.

The NRA Foundation also collects hundreds of thousands of dollars from the industry, which it then gives to local-level organizations for training and equipment purchases.

This shift is key to understanding why a coalition of hunters, collectors and firearm enthusiasts takes the heat for incidents of gun violence, like the shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, rather than the companies that manufacture and market assault weapons.

The chief trade association for gun manufacturers is the National Shooting Sports Federation, which is, incidentally, located in Newtown, Conn. But the NRA takes front and center after each and every shooting.

"Today's NRA is a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. "While the NRA portrays itself as protecting the 'freedom' of individual gun owners, it's actually working to protect the freedom of the gun industry to manufacture and sell virtually any weapon or accessory."

There are two reasons for the industry support for the NRA. The first is that the organization develops and maintains a market for their products. The second, less direct function, is to absorb criticism in the event of PR crises for the gun industry.

businessinsider

"Today's NRA is a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. "While the NRA portrays itself as protecting the 'freedom' of individual gun owners, it's actually working to protect the freedom of the gun industry to manufacture and sell virtually any weapon or accessory."

So you choose to believe what the Gun Control lobby says.  Every time someone proposes something that will actually work, the gun control crowd jumps right back to guns, even though there is no question that GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK.  That indicates that gun controllers are obsessed with guns and removing them from the possession of the "deplorables" by any means possible, and simply do not care about methods that would actually save the lives of children.  That indicates that the gun controllers have another agenda that they refuse to admit to.

So you choose to believe what the Gun Control lobby says.

I choose to believe that these up and coming young voters no longer trust the "adults" to do the right thing.  They are going to eventually be the majority and the old people who refuse to listen to them will be on the receiving end of the "ignore" button.

Keep drawing the line in the sand and telling these young people to go fuck themselves as they and their friends get picked off.  

Right on, PJ. Those who ignore them now will be the ones being ignored in future elections. 

There is an old saying, "Be careful whose toes you step on today, as they just might belong to the ass you will have to kiss tomorrow."

I think the old geezers are going to be ready for those young whipper snappers. 

I think the old geezers are going to be ready for those young whipper snappers.

Old, obese and nearly blind from diabetes waving their guns around, sounds real safe.

She was probably being forced to shoot the gun or else they wouldn't feed her.  

there is no question that GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK.

Most countries in the world have much stricter gun laws than the U.S. Stricter by far.

For example, Europe. 

So I'm wondering-- how does the number of school shooting in Europe compare to that in the U.S.?

And...why?

I think the old geezers are going to be ready for those young whipper snappers.

Glad you brought that up! Because by the same token-- are the young whippersnappers going to be ready?

Nine-year-old girl accidentally kills gun instructor

Most countries in the world have much stricter gun laws than the U.S. Stricter by far.

For example, Europe. 

European countries have homogeneous populations and relatively minor drug problems and gang problems, which generally lower rates of violent behavior, whether or not they have firearms available.  They still have mass murders though. 

Concert in London last year, numerous young people killed, mostly by bombs and automatic weapons (highly restricted in both London and Florida).  How did the killers get the automatic weapons and bomb making materials in  a highly restricted venue?  Simple, they bought them illegally and smuggled them into the country.  GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK.

Christmas shoppers in southern France in a crowded marketplace deliberately run down by a truck.  Truck was rented.  NOT ONLY DOESN'T GUN CONTROL WORK, IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE COMMISSION OF MASS MURDER.

Same circumstance on London Bridge last fall.  Vehicle deliberately runs down crowded civilians.  Accomplished the job without even needing a gun.

You just don't get it.  Gun control will not stop mass murders in schools or anywhere else.  Assault Weapon  Ban back in the 90's, according to the CDC, had no significant effect on the murder rate.  Didn't change anything, proving that GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK.

Get off the guns and look at what DOES work.  Don't waste resources trying to keep shooters separated from guns.  It is impossible, no matter how much gun control you put in place..  They will get whatever guns they want, whether legally or illegally.  Instead of trying to separate shooters from weapons, separate them from their preferred targets, in this case, masses of students in restricted areas.  HARDEN THE TARGETS.  That is how you save the lives of children.  If, however, you just keep flipping back to guns, you then reveal that the true agenda is not saving the lives of children, but the disarming of Americans.

"Be careful whose toes you step on today, as they just might belong to the ass you will have to kiss tomorrow."

very true and a lesson I learned early in life , as well as have employed with others  and most likely will again in the future. 

So whose toes are actually being stepped on , I guess that would depend on where one stands , are the supposed adults stepping on these kids toes by disregarding them? possibly, but unless these kids are trust fund babies , chances are they will most likely live regular unimportant lives making whatever the market dictates at the time of employment , same holds true for the supposed adults as well , but as one ages , they usually start to at least have some financial security , when I decide to fully retire (secure enough financially I semi retired at 48) it will most likely be somewhere with a more agreeable temperature and involve sandy beaches and copious amounts of rum , somewhere if I wear my kilt , I don't have to use an acorn cap and rubber bands as a jock strap. Now are these kids stepping on my toes any? not to my way of thinking , yet, that's why I agree with what you said there .

GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK.

But if that's the case-- how come Europe has gun control-- and a much, much lower rate of school shootings? 

But if that's the case-- how come Europe has gun control-- and a much, much lower rate of school shootings?

I just told you and you chose not to listen. 

European countries have homogeneous populations and relatively minor drug problems and gang problems, which generally lower rates of violent behavior, whether or not they have firearms available.  Even with those differences, there are still mass murders and the casualty rates are just as high, or even higher, than here.  The killers just use different weapons or firearms that are smuggled in.

And yet, you ran right back to guns, even though guns are not and never have been the problem.  Powerful weapons have been available to the general public since the early 1900's, the much demonized AR-15 since 1962, and there has been no problem until quite recently.  That alone tells us that the problem is not guns.  The real problem is changing attitudes toward violent behavior.  Changing that is a very long term problem.  What is not long term and is very doable is strengthening school security so that the shooters can't get to their victims.  But, go ahead, if you wish; ignore the real solution and keep running back to your obsession with guns in the hands of the American people.  Obviously the real objective is the disarmament of all civilian Americans.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's TOO LATE to stop the proliferation in the USA and the resulting carnage - it's gone WAY past the point of no return.

As for the teenager's attempt to do anything about it - very noble, very sensible, but many years ago Bob Dylan wrote what the answer was:

bilibili

but many years ago Bob Dylan wrote what the answer was:

But more recently he re-wrote the lyrics for an oldie:

Bob Dylan Updates "The Times They Are A-Changin'" for 2018

(You'll have to check for that updated version on a Chinese site)

Bob Dylan did NOT rewrite his song, Jimmy Fallon did.

If Dylan disapproves he should sue Fallon! 

Nor did the lyrics NEED changing.  They are just as relevant today as they were when the song was written, maybe even more.

Can you remember the verse starting with:

"Come you mothers and fathers from throughout the land...."

...being used in a commercial?  I can't remember the product or service.  If I recall correctly there was one line that they omitted in the commercial.

"If Dylan disapproves he should sue Fallon!"

That would be a hoot, considering that Dylan himself (besides using the name of a famous author for "effect") has done his own share of plagiarizing from old ballads.  Take for example the similarity of "A Hard Rain's A-gonna Fall" and "Lord Rendal".

contemplator

but many years ago Bob Dylan wrote what the answer was:

But, as you said-- that was many years ago. Its been a while-- and now the times they are a changin' (to coin a phrase).

I don't know if the fetishisation of youth is more pathetic or the belief that the "gun lobby" and not, you know, what the voters want is what stands in the way of gun confiscation.

take a look at how the children's crusade turned out when adults thought the kids, should be in charge of policy.

what the voters want 

Well, here's a poll (although people may be suspicious that it's a leftist website):

Fox News poll: Majorities support new gun measures

That poll is 8 years old.

That poll is 8 years old.

Exactly. And opposition has increased since that time!

Fox News poll: Majorities support new gun measures

And the Constitution does not.  The only majority that would matter in such a case would be the one on the Supreme Court.  We have it and you can't do anything about it, unless a couple of them get mysteriously Scalia'ed.

Actually the states can pass more gun restrictions. In fact many already have.

Legislatures make the laws. 

The Supreme Court has authority only if a law is challend and works its way up through lower courts to the Supreme Court.

And even then, the Supremes may choose not to take the case.

The Supreme Court has authority only if a law is challend and works its way up through lower courts to the Supreme Court.

And even then, the Supremes may choose not to take the case.

And you think that any such law wouldn't be challenged, with restraining orders against enforcement until the Supreme Court hears it?  I can guarantee you that it would.  Perhaps you've forgotten the methods used in the so called Muslim ban.  The same methods can also be used in this type of case. and Conservatives can judge shop just as easily as Liberals did.  Chances of the present SC or any future SC with Justices appointed by President Trump refusing to hear the case is slim.  Since the Liberals chose to politicize the court system, it will now stay politicized.

It is quite interesting to see how some folks like to try and pick and choose those issues when states have "state rights" and when they don't.

It's very telling actually.

Good for them.

Though it is fairly sad statement that a group of High School students have to do Congresses job for them.

Yes, good for them.    They are voicing their opinions.   Too bad it's a rather obtuse message in relation to the real problem at hand.  

If it were completely on point it would be questioning why society failed to properly deal with this Cruz kid prior to the shooting.   There were plenty of chances for that to happen and in every case the community failed to do so.   Blaming the gun only is the type of sophomoric analysis one would expect from a teenager in HS.

I'd respect his message much more if he talked more about the communities failures and less about gun control.

So far anyone (yes, even someone who is mentally ill) can buy a gun without any background check at all!

Let's hope this changes....