Anti-Abortion Violence on the Rise, New Study Says

This might seem a little harsh, but abortion protesters are little more than domestic terrorists, with attempts at harassment, threats of violence, or even actual violence. Abortion is a settled issue (or should be) and a woman's right! If you don't like abortion, then don't have one! Whether someone else chooses to have one or not is not anyone else's business! It's as simple as that. It's too bad abortion opponents do not seem to understand that.

I don't find that harsh at all. When they attempt and succeed to bomb clinics, assassinate physicians, destroy property, obstruct others then, yes, they are terrorists.

And I find it very hard to believe that trumpy hasn't paid for an abortion or two in his day....

I don't find that harsh at all.

Well, I was trying to be nice. 

When they attempt and succeed to bomb clinics, assassinate physicians, destroy property, obstruct others then, yes, they are terrorists.

Agreed. not to mention such acts seem contradictory to the concept of "pro-life." Irony or hypocrisy?

And I find it very hard to believe that trumpy hasn't paid for an abortion or two in his day

Or any other politician with a mistress on the side as well.

Paying for an abortion isn't a problem for the trumpsters. It's the person getting/giving one.

It's the person getting one.

Indeed, especially when anti-abortion protesters try to deny someone their right to have one.

When these assholes start actually caring about the child that is born, then maybe I'll start taking them seriously. Until then, I give them a big fuck you with both hands

When these assholes start actually caring about the child that is born, then maybe I'll start taking them seriously.

I wouldn't take them seriously either way. Kudos to them if they actually do take care of unwanted children that are born. But that doesn't change the fact that they probably still support and/or engage in anti-abortion activities meant to prevent women from exercising their rights. It must be nice o have so much free time they can stand outside a clinic and protest all day. I guess this is the part where I would tell them to "get a life" (no pun intended).

Or my favorite...."get a job"

Isn't that what the NT cons are always telling us what to do?

Good point.

When these assholes start actually caring about the child that is born, then maybe I'll start taking them seriously.

Abortion is solely the decision of the women regardless of what anyone else thinks.  

It is only the woman who is risking her mental and physical health to bring a pregnancy to term.

A woman does not have an obligation to incubate sperm so a man can pass on this genes or to re-supply cannon fodder, wage slaves and an expanding consumer base. 

Much of the hysteria over abortion is related to the fact that the US is among the nations that is faced with a declining population due to less than replacement birth rates.  Our population would have already been declining had it not been for illegal immigration from Mexico.  Mexico's birth rates are in decline.  This means that the US will soon have to look elsewhere for illegal immigrants or to force women in the US to have children that they don't want or need.

un

Today, 46 per cent of the world’s population lives in countries with low levels of fertility, where women have fewer than 2.1 children on average. Low-fertility countries now include all of Europe and Northern America, as well as many countries in Asia and Latin America and the Caribbean. Another 46 per cent of the world’s population lives in “intermediate fertility” countries that have already experienced substantial fertility declines and where women have on average between 2.1 and 5 children. The remaining 8 per cent of the world’s population lives in “high-fertility” countries that have experienced only limited fertility decline to date. In these countries the average woman has five or more children over her lifetime. Most of these countries are in sub-Saharan Africa. 

There has been hysteria for years over "Demographic Winter" which uses religion as a propaganda tool to try to convince women that it is their "duty" to have more children.  Google Demographic Winter if you want to see the film.  You might want to do it on an empty stomach or after 5 or 6 shots of tequila.

kathrynjoyce

Settling in to watch the counterintuitive “depopulation threat” documentary,  Demographic Winter: The Decline of the Human Family , feels disorientingly like life imitating art, or more specifically, social science imitating apocalypse cinema.

Above an ominous, skeletal piano score, telegraphing a claustrophobic sense of impending doom, an assembly of prominent conservative researchers and pundits, including Nobel laureate Gary Becker and academics from conservative think-tanks, ruefully predicts a new end-of-days.

Everywhere throughout the film, there is a plague of disappearing bodies, particularly children’s bodies, literally vanishing from the screen.  The children, classrooms full of them, become translucent and fade from dens, swing sets, teeter-totters, bikes and shady suburban walkways as flurries of snowflakes start to fly. 

Over it all a voiceover, read by a female narrator, lends the film an eerily automated calm, recalling a familiar science fiction juxtaposition: humanity rendered impotent beside an unflappable computerized countdown.

The effect is a clear arrow pointing to mankind’s culpability in its downfall, having tampered with the established order to the point of self-destruction: a timeworn morality tale science fiction lifted from religion.

more on declining birth rates....

There is a wealth of good information below about world birth rates - past, present and future.  

The US economy is based on having an endless supply of cannon fodder, wage slaves and consumers.  If our population declines, then the US economic model suffers.

  Always follow the money.

un

Global total fertility is projected to decline to 2.4 children per woman by 2030 and 2.2 children per woman by 2050. In Africa, fertility is projected to decline to 3.9 children per woman by 2030 and 3.1 children per woman by 2050. Fertility declines in all other regions are projected to be much more modest and even show small increases in Europe and Northern America.

The standard biological sex ratio at birth is around 104 to 106 boys per 100 girls. Sex ratios above this range indicate the use of practices and methods, including sex-selective abortion, to realize strong preferences for sons. The current sex ratios among children will have a lasting impact on population dynamics with men of marriageable age already outnumbering women in many countries, especially in Asia which has nine out of the ten countries or areas with the highest sex ratio at birth.

Globally, the net reproduction rate is 1.1 surviving daughters per woman. In all regions in the world, the net reproduction rate is at or below this level, except for Africa, where the net reproduction rate is 1.9. This means that, on average, each African mother is replacing herself with nearly two daughters, which leads to fast population growth.

The adolescent birth rate is the number of births per 1,000 women ages 15 to 19. Early childbearing poses increased health risks to adolescent mothers and reduces the education and employment opportunities that adolescent girls might have had otherwise.

The trend in adolescent fertility has been downward in all regions but there are very sharp differences in levels and trends. Africa has the highest adolescent birth rate and the decline over time has been slow. High adolescent fertility also persists in Latin America and the Caribbean.

You know the slush fund Ghouliani keeps talking about?  He said something to the effect of - 'who knows if there are other women who have been paid off from this slush fund?'  

I find it hard to believe that he hasn't paid for any abortions also.  I believe he wanted Marla to abort.  I could be wrong about that though.  

There has been hysteria for years over "Demographic Winter" which uses religion as a propaganda tool to try to convince women that it is their "duty" to have more children.  Google Demographic Winter if you want to see the film.  You might want to do it on an empty stomach or after 5 or 6 shots of tequila.

"The Handmaid's Tale" really does seem to have been a prophecy.

If people in this country are so worried about a lack of births why don't they try and adopt kids from countries that have too many babies and live in poverty?

Oh...wait....those aren't white kids....

If people in this country are so worried about a lack of births why don't they try and adopt kids from countries that have too many babies and live in poverty?

The US has several 100,000 children in foster care that will never have homes.

Let us review some disturbing facts about our adoption on the international scene.

I remember having discussions on NV about issues with children adopted from Russia, but I did not remember that Putin banned US adoptions back in 2012.

huffingtonpost

Because Americans’ ability to parent Russian orphans has become a flashpoint in a complicated political struggle that began when Americans took aim at Russia’s handling of human rights by passing the Magnitsky Act. The conflict escalated after Russia retaliated by s hutting down adoptions to Americans   after more than two decades.

Scores of adoptive parents are now in limbo, as are young babies languishing in Russian orphanages. Many organizations and activists are fighting publicly and behind the scenes to reverse the ban, both here and abroad. But Russian advocates who want to maintain the ban have a powerful sound bite fueling their fight: “ Twenty adopted Russian children have died   at the hands of their American parents.”

Look world, they are saying, there is something inherently wrong with how Americans are parenting our children. Our children are not safe. The ban makes sense. It must be upheld.

Just last month, less than 60 days after the ban took effect,   Max Shatto , a 3-year-old Russian boy who was adopted last October, was found dead in the street outside his Texas home. The Russians screamed murder. The news reinforced the notion that Americans are unfit parents. The autopsy said the toddler died of self-inflicted wounds. The Russians didn’t buy it.

No one denies that twenty deaths of Russian-adopted children is a disturbing statistic. Even in context — 20 out of 60,000 adoptions — something is not right. It isn’t.

This woman sent her adopted son back to Russia on a one-way ticket.

cbsnews

(CBS/AP) NASHVILLE, Tenn. - An American woman who adopted a Russian boy and then later sent him back to Moscow on a one-way flight has been ordered to pay $150,000 and cough up an additional $1,000 a month in child support.

Return of orphan to Russia sparks uproar  
Sheriff: Family was afraid of Russian boy  
Ambassador: Russian boy "in very good hands"

On Thursday a Bedford County, Tenn., judge said Torry Hansen must begin making the child support payments in June and continue to pay until the boy turns 18.

Hansen sent Artyom Saveliev back to Russia on one-way international flight in April 2010. She sent the boy alone with a note that partially said: "I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends, and myself," the letter said, "I no longer wish to parent this child. As he is a Russian national, I am returning him to your guardianship," according to   CBS News .

"He is violent and has severe psychopathic issues," she added.

Hansen's mother told the Associated Press that the boy was violent, saying that he drew pictures of him burning the family house down. She said they feared for their safety, and said that the Russian orphanage lied because they wanted to get rid of the boy. While the Hansen sought counseling about the issue, she never brought Saveliev to see a psychiatrist or psychologist.

The event caused outrage in the international community, prompting Russia to consider halting all American adoptions from their country,   CBS News reported .

Afterward the World Association for Children and Parents, the agency that helped Hansen adopt the child, filed a lawsuit seeking child support.

Oh...wait....those aren't white kids....

True.

People wanting to use white women for broodmares is nothing new, unfortunately.

History will show that the depths of depravation knows no boundaries for some of our so-called "intelligent" species.

In New York City, officials rounded up children on the streets, called them orphans, put them on trains, sent them West and allowed farmers to use and abuse the kids as they saw fit.

And then we have the people who traffic in white babies and children.

nypost

Tann was a pied piper without scruple; she was the mastermind behind a black market for white babies (especially blond, blue-eyed ones) that terrorized poor Southern families for almost three decades. It’s estimated that over 5,000 children were stolen by Tann and the society between 1924 and 1950 and that some 500 died at the society’s hands as a result of poor care, disease and, it is suspected, abuse.

Particularly vulnerable were newborns. In 1945 alone, as many as 50 children perished in a dysentery outbreak. The precise figure, like so many terrible details about the society, is not known.

Tann had various means of procuring babies and children for her wealthy customers. She bribed nurses and doctors in birthing wards, who would then tell new parents that their babies had been stillborn.

Her organization was quick to snatch babies born in prisons and mental wards. Older children were grabbed off the street by Tann’s agents and were told their parents had died. To cover their tracks, the society falsified adoption records and destroyed any trace of these children’s origins.

My daughter grew up with a young lady who is a Russian national but was adopted by a family here. She was fairly old when she was adopted, I want to say between 8-10 years old. She didn't speak a word of English and still speaks with a slight accent.

Apparently, this poor young woman was put up for adoption by her family because they couldn't afford another mouth to feed, they already had 8 or 9 kids.

She is now in the Navy and doing well. She's a delightful young woman and I like spending time with her whenever she comes to visit

International child trafficking is still ongoing.  US citizens are adopting babies stolen from their mothers and sold for a profit.

How often does this happen?  Once is one times too many to force women into being broodmares and then stealing their babies.

theatlantic

In March 2011, Rose Candis had the worst lunch of her life. Sitting at a restaurant in Shaoguan, a small city in South China, the American mother tried hard not to vomit while her traveling companion translated what the man they were eating with had just explained: her adopted Chinese daughter Erica had been purchased, and then essentially resold to her for profit. The papers the Chinese orphanage had shown her documenting how her daughter had been abandoned by the side of a road were fakes. The tin of earth the orphanage had given her so that her daughter could always keep a piece of her home with her as she grew up in the U.S. was a fraud, a pile of dirt from the place her daughter's paperwork was forged, not where she was born. Candis had flown thousands of miles to answer her daughter Erica's question -- who are my birth parents? -- but now she was further from the answer than ever.

"The Handmaid's Tale" really does seem to have been a prophecy.

I watched the movie many years ago.  

I wish I had brain bleach to erase the images of the young woman being held down by the wife while the husband raped their intended broodmare.

I'm guessing the adoptive mother didn't know anything about this when she adopted the baby?

There's a remake out on Hulu that has expanded the book and the original movie into a series. The second season just started and it's good. The first season of the series followed the book a lot better than the movie, altho  they did cut out the racism that was in the book and the original movie. In the book, black people were called the Children of Ham and "re-settled" (where? that's anybody's guess). That was also in the movie. In the series, all colors of woman are forced to be handmaids.

Apparently, this poor young woman was put up for adoption by her family because they couldn't afford another mouth to feed, they already had 8 or 9 kids.

These days the Russian government is paying women to have more children and even giving some kind of medal to those with 7 or more.  

telegraph.co.uk

It’s been clear to Russian policymakers for a while that their country is facing a demographic crisis. After the break up of the Soviet Union, the population of Russia shrank by up to 700,000  a year.

B etween 1992 and 2009, the country lost about six million people, or four per cent of its population.

congregants from his church in Rostov-on-Don have begun to adopt children with mental and physical disabilities.

I'm glad that's occurring, but do families in Russia have the means to support so many children?

This love affair that Putin is having with the Russian Orthodox Church is a little nauseating considering he was a hardliner at the KGB before the fall of the USSR

I'm guessing the adoptive mother didn't know anything about this when she adopted the baby?

How could she?  She is dealing with a US adoption agency that is supposedly licensed to contract international adoptions.

It is possible that it was the baby sellers who pushed for secrecy laws under the propaganda that it was all about "protecting" the mother's privacy.

I am not saying that adoption is not sometimes beneficial to the child.  However, it is rarely, if ever, beneficial to the woman who is forced to give up her baby for societal reasons such as "shame" or for financial reasons.

Children should be wanted and planned, preferably by both parents who are of an age to be emotionally and financially able.  This means that there should be real sex education, access to medical care, and access to all forms of birth control.

No woman should ever be forced to bring a pregnancy to term.

ZERO women should be forced to give up their babies for any reason.  Children belong with the mother who risked her own life and health to give them life.  

Everyone could probably benefit with taking classes on child development and parenting.

There's a remake out on Hulu

That I avoid.  

My mind is already filled with enough images of rape and violence via both media and real life experience that I seek to make my world a nicer place whenever possible.

I have PTSD.

do families in Russia have the means to support so many children?

They are receiving government support and perhaps money from wealthy Russians who need cannon fodder, wage slaves and consumers.

Also, having large families is being wrapped in the Russian flag of patriotism so they have enough citizens to defend their homeland.

Sound familiar?

Dear Friend Mocowgirl: For the medical aspects of PTSD, best to see doctor(s).

For pastoral care, you know I will be here for you.

Peace, Comfort, and Abundant Blessings Always.

Enoch.

Thank you.

I deal pretty well most days by trying to understand the forces that shape human personalities....including my own.

I am an introvert.  "Sharing" is difficult for me so please don't ever take it personally if I don't communicate one on one.

Currently, I am remodeling my kitchen cabinets, painting them a yellow tinted white, and the walls a sunny yellow.  Then, I have oodles of summer weather to look forward to so I can enjoy the great outdoors - if it means that I only sit under a shade tree and watch the bees and butterflies enjoy the summer flowers.

My mind is already filled with enough images of rape and violence via both media and real life experience that I seek to make my world a nicer place whenever possible.

I'm sorry that you have to go through that hell. Unless a person has been there nobody knows what it is like.

Amen to that!

Very well, thank-you. And you?

Good for you! I hate moving, I hope everything went ok without too many headaches. Congrats on the new gig!

abortion protesters are little more than domestic terrorists

True. Much like many Muslim extremists who believe they have to use violence to defend against the invisible blasphemous offenses against their faith, some anti-abortion protestors rationalize violence against pro-choice advocates because they believe there was some offense committed against their imagined God and an invisible unproven "soul" they believe was created at conception. Both use a contorted version of faith to justify their violent actions.

some anti-abortion protestors rationalize violence against pro-choice advocates because they believe there was some offense committed against their imagined God and an invisible unproven "soul" they believe was created at conception.

Or they feel an embryo/fetus is more important that the woman in question, and the ends justify the means. 

They are terrorists. Radical religious terrorists. They deserve whatever shit they get.

Not harsh at all.  Busybodies that need to keep their noses out of decisions that have NOTHING to do with them

Busybodies that need to keep their noses out of decisions that have NOTHING to do with them

Agreed and well said.

Why are anti abortionists terrorists? Because you disagree with them? I suggest you read the bill of rights.

Why are anti abortionists terrorists? Because you disagree with them?

I briefly stated what makes them seem like terrorists. Given the focus on violence committed by them in the article only reinforces that.

I suggest you read the bill of rights.

I am familiar with it. Your point?

I'm with you on this, Gordy.    Even when these anti-abortion kooks don't cross the line and commit violent acts of terrorism their intent is still to terrorize and intimidate women seeking healthcare services.     The fact that a number of these kooks do commit violent acts of terrorism like clinic bombings or murdered doctors and their patients simply tends to make the non-violent forms of terrorism that much more effective, like when these kooks log the license numbers of cars at the clinic and then use the DMV to cross reference these and identify the patients and the clinic staff in order to harass them in other ways.

thinkprogress

Why are anti abortionists terrorists? Because you disagree with them? I suggest you read the bill of rights.

nytimes

en.wikipedia

washingtonpost

This is why.

Because you disagree with them?

BTW, I do disagree with them (or they with me). Either way, that just makes them wrong!

They give these fucking freak protesters more rights than the women.  

Even when these anti-abortion kooks don't cross the line and commit violent acts of terrorism their intent is still to terrorize and intimidate women seeking healthcare services.

They're also not above lying in trying to further their agenda either. I'm reminded of their attempt to paint PP in a bad light with the "selling baby parts" fiasco. Such tactics is not only dishonest, it also speaks volumes about some anti-abortionists.

The  National Abortion Federation (NAF ) is an organization of abortion  providers. Any "study" they do on "anti- abortion violence" would have to be substantiated IMO.

The National Abortion Federation (NAF) is an organization of abortion providers.

I am aware of who they are. Abortion providers can be members of NAF in the same way doctors can be members of the AMA.

Any "study" they do on "anti- abortion violence" would have to be substantiated IMO.

History and the news alone substantiates the violence committed by anti-abortionists. 

The National Abortion Federation???

Sure. 

I'm not seeing a problem.

prochoice

How many abortions have you been forced to undergo against your will?

What about it?

One of my sisters, 14 months younger than me, was prescribed birth control pills when she was in high school 40+ years ago to alleviate a health issue. She was very athletic and could damn near kick my ass. She and my mom went to her appointment at PP and when they got there had to run the anti-choice gauntlet. One of the thumpers got in my sister's face and grabbed her by the arm. It didn't go well for that thumper. My sister later told me she thought my mom was going to start throwing punches before the PP people ran out the door. Thumper perps split before the cops showed up. After that I ended up escorting both of my sisters to PP. Without incriminating myself, I was given several opportunities that I took full advantage of,... when we were leaving. Harmless, but humiliating. pffft, thumpers, so what, I had fun. Both of my sisters had potentially life threatening reproductive issues that were handled thru PP. My oldest sister has 2 sons. One owns a business and the other is a contractor overseas. My youngest sister was unable to have children. Religious organizations that attempt to eliminate individual freedom of choice are enemies of America and need to be dealt with accordingly, and permanently. 

She and my mom went to her appointment at PP and when they got there had to run the anti-choice gauntlet.

That's the other thing with anti-abortionists: they don't care or understand why someone would go to a PP, even if abortion was not the reason (not that the reason is anyone's business). In narrow tunnel vision thinking, they equate PP with abortion. Never mind the myriad of other services PP provides, including birth control, as your story illustrates.

Without incriminating myself, I was given several opportunities that I took full advantage of,... when we were leaving.

Oh, do tell. There seems to be quite a tale here. Come on, don't leave me hanging. 

PP continues to make most of its money from murdering the innocent unborn

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Oh Bull Shit. If every God fearing woman who ever terminated for whatever her own good reasons were to disappear on Saturday night church pews across America would be half empty on Sunday morning. The demand for termination services is caused by unwanted pregnancies and women have been terminating since the times of Ancient Egypt and Rome. The rate of terminations is about twice what it is in the US in paternalistic religious nations like Czechoslovakia and Mexico where terminations are mostly illegal because the demand for terminations is mostly related to women already having more children than they can care for. In any case, demand for termination services could be almost eliminated by 3 simple things...

Three things that are proven to dramatically reduce demand for termination services:

1. Early and comprehensive sex education for all boys and girls before puberty.

2. Easy access to all form of birth control for all sexually active persons.

3. Easy access to women's health services such as provided by Planned Parenthood.

Why do those most opposed to legal abortions reject what is proven to eliminate demand for abortions?

PP continues to make most of its money from murdering the innocent unborn

Typical anti-abortion ignorance! thank you for illustrating our points so perfectly. So for your education (which I'm sure has been explained to you before), most of PPs money comes from the government. And none of that money goes towards elective abortions. And abortion is not murder, no matter how much you want to think otherwise. And what are the unborn "innocent" of exactly? Innocence implies a legal issue of some kind. Or is that just an attempt at an appeal to emotion, which only proves how weak your position is!

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Spare us your dogmatic tripe. it's utterly meaningless to any rational minded individual, not to mention just plain stupid! it also show you have no logical argument to make and instead can only rely on emotional appeals or thinly veiled threats from your cosmic boogeyman. Your post would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic!

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Nowhere does the Bible mention abortion.   It does, however, mention infanticide.   For example:

1 Samuel 15:2-3

² Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.³ Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Given God commanded the slaying of infants and sucklings it is not surprising He never deemed abortion punishable by eternal damnation.

... murdering the innocent unborn ...

What is God's objective moral position on murdering the innocent born?

innocent unborn

what about original sin, how can there be innocent unborn with that?

those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

I support them, I ain't repenting and hell does not exist

What is God's objective moral position on murdering the innocent born?

No doubt the answer will be something along the lines of "if god does it, then it's ok. It's god's righteous judgement. Who are we to question god?" But somehow, I doubt you'll actually get an answer. Or at least, not a rational or logical one.

The answer was already given elsewhere:  per livefreeordie, this was justified revenge against the Amalekites.   So it is okay to murder infants and sucklings if done for vengeance.    Nothing like looking to the Bible for moral guidance.

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Thank you, now go away.

PP continues to make most of its money from murdering the innocent unborn

You cannot murder what is not legally alive, so stop with the emotional hyperbole. 

 You are not alive until you breathe air. The bible says so.

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Genesis 2:7

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Actually the actions of people who try to force their (misguided and wrong) religious beliefs on to every woman need to repent or go to hell.  Free will doesn't mean except when the immoral minority decides women don't count.  Most pregnancies  don't make it to term for many reasons,  and its nobody's damn business if its the woman's choice or not.    We especially don't want anything to do with anti-abortionists and conservatives who have the morals and values of swamp pus.  Mind your own business.

The answer was already given elsewhere: per livefreeordie, this was justified revenge against the Amalekites.  So it is okay to murder infants and sucklings if done for vengeance. Nothing like looking to the Bible for moral guidance.

I remember that. To summarize: according to livefreeordie, abortion bad, infanticide for revenge good. And we're the sinners bound for hell? [eyeroll here]

Thank you, now go away.

Oh no, not yet. I'd love to hear his reply or attempt at justification. I think we all could use the laugh. Especially since his argument (if it can even be called that) is so easily and thoroughly blown out of the water, by myself and others here. 

PP continues to make most of its money from murdering the innocent unborn

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,  and all liars ,  their portion will be in  the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is  the second death.” Revelation 21:8

" abortions are actually not a big part of what Planned Parenthood says it does — 3 percent of the services it provided last year were abortion-related, according to the organization's annual report. (For a sense of the scope of that, abortions accounted for about 328,000 of the group's nearly 10.6 million services provided last year.)"

42% of PP funding is spent on treatment of STD's, 34% is spent on contraceptives, 9% is spent on cancer screenings.

So 3 times more is spent on cancer screenings than on abortion at PP.

npr

That makes anyone claiming PP "makes most of its money" from abortion a flat out LIAR.  So if you truly believe in a God who will torture his children for eternity in a burning place of torment, then you appear to be headed there yourself. I myself have long given up such a childish belief as hell, but you can go right ahead and book your tickets. 

What radical anti-abortionists really desire is that terminations be made not just illegal and banned but that women and their doctors and even the people who assist by doing something as simple as driving the woman to the doctor for her procedure liable tor murder charges. They would like it if everyone associated with terminations be charged with murder or accessory to murder. It is not like we do not know how to almost eliminate the demand for terminations services but we cannot even have an honest conversation with radical anti-abortionists because they will never be completely honest about their ultimate objective which is to define terminations legally as murders and everyone even tangentially associated with the procedure as murderers subject to harsh persecution under the law. I am so tired of explaining this over and over you cannot imagine...

those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

BTW, if that isn't a sweeping generalization I don't know what is but I hope TPTB don't remove it...

'That makes anyone claiming PP "makes most of its money" from abortion a flat out LIAR. So if you truly believe in a God who will torture his children for eternity in a burning place of torment, then you appear to be headed there yourself. I myself have long given up such a childish belief as hell, but you can go right ahead and book your tickets.'

He's supposedly a 'pastor'.  Where's the puke emoticon when you need it?

If there's a hell - these 'pastors' will be there.  

'Or at least, not a rational or logical one.'

Or coherent

When I went there at 16 these parasites were hanging around.  I've never had an abortion and I don't think that I could have but I respect every woman's choice.  I was going for birth control, very inexpensive birth control.  Which prevented me from having an unwanted pregnancy or an abortion.

This dumb bitch said 'Do you know they're killing babies in there?'  I just shook my head and kept on walking.  

from

I used the local Family Planning clinic back when I was in college. They diagnosed a potentially serious condition for which they treated me. I also got my birth control so I could be the slut I wanted to be without fear of pregnancy.

Never had a pregnancy I didn't want and never had an abortion. I have raised 2 productive members of society, so if I'm going to hell I hope it's a really nice hand basket

'Never had a pregnancy I didn't want and never had an abortion. I have raised 2 productive members of society, so if I'm going to hell I hope it's a really nice hand basket'

Longaberger baskets are nice! 

If all those uptight phonier than thou pricks are in heaven, I'd rather be in hell.  

It was during my water balloon and bottle rocket phase. Use your imagination.

It was during my water balloon and bottle rocket phase. Use your imagination.

LOL, oh I'm imagining alright. If you take a piece of pvc pipe and a couple bottle rockets, you have yourself a poor-man's rocket launcher. 

It was during my water balloon and bottle rocket phase.

Phase?   Some of us never grow out of it.    However the two fun items don't work well together.....too much mass for a launch or too much wet to light the fuse.

'Never had a pregnancy I didn't want and never had an abortion. I have raised 2 productive members of society, so if I'm going to hell I hope it's a really nice hand basket '

Longaberger baskets are nice! 

They announced that they are permanently closing a few days ago.

dispatch

I used the local Family Planning clinic back when I was in college. I also got my birth control so I could be the slut I wanted to be without fear of pregnancy.

Isn't what college is for?  I know that I did...............

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

Larry, what about if I "repent" to your imaginary friend first and then go escort women to the PP clinic?    That way I can do a good deed and then "repent" again next time.

I started off bombarding the anti-choicers with water balloons with my first sister and then graduated to exploding bottle rockets with my second sister.

We used half inch electrical conduit about 2 feet long. Surprisingly accurate. PVC might have been an issue since some of the exploding bottle rockets would prematurely detonate. Not a problem with steel conduit.

Washington Post 3 Pinocchio’s for PP 3% figure

“With limited data, there is no accurate way to measure how much of Planned Parenthood’s activities comprise abortions. Both sides are using meaningless and incomplete comparisons to make their argument, and the public should be wary of both figures. Thus, both receive Three Pinocchios.

While Planned Parenthood has no legal obligation to make its data more public, it is unfortunate that the public has limited access to data about the organization. Planned Parenthood could end the speculation–and Pinocchios–by providing a more transparent breakdown of its clients, referrals and sources of revenues.”

washingtonpost

That’s not repentance. To repent means to express sorrow and regret for your actions and then turn from them and go away from them

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

still trying to control women's medical decisions through religious beliefs, huh ?

Both sides are using meaningless and incomplete comparisons to make their argument, and the public should be wary of both figures. Thus, both receive Three Pinocchios.

You just gave yourself three Pinocchios there, Larry.

still trying to control women's medical decisions through religious beliefs, huh ?

And it's still not working....

Warning people of the consequences of their actions cannot reasonably be considered “control”.   If I warn you that if you continue on the road you’re driving, it has a sudden cliffwithout warning, am I trying to warn you of danger or “controlling”?

I didn’t use the 94% figure so there is no Pinocchio 

Warning people of the consequences of their actions cannot reasonably be considered “control”.

One is imposing one's beliefs on others when one seeks to frighten / intimidate them with eternal damnation, etc.   Not like this is anything new - religious fear tactics have been at the epicenter of religions for thousands of years.

Further, the consequences are simply what you believe.   Your belief does not mean it is true.   

No fun. Fish in a barrel.

You never answered my question. Why do those opposed to legal abortion reject what is proven to eliminate demand?

Warning people of the consequences of their actions cannot reasonably be considered “control”.   If I warn you that if you continue on the road you’re driving, it has a sudden cliffwithout warning, am I trying to warn you of danger or “controlling”?

your example is illogical - you are definitely trying to control people by trying to force them to adhere to your religious beliefs which they may not share and you are trying to punish them by standards of your religious beliefs for their actions. You are trying to control their actions and their lives with your religious beliefs or you'd have no need to try to "warn" them or "condemn" them and would keep your religious beliefs out of their lives.

No fun. Fish in a barrel.

Indeed. It's too easy.

Making any claim one way or the other without the data to support it is dishonest.

You're proselytizing.

those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent

I support NARAL and Planned Parenthood with my money. I'd donate $20.00 in your name if I knew what it was.

Hell doesn't exist because your God doesn't exist.

         "those who work there and those who support them will face going to hell unless they repent"

OK,  they can quit protesting, being violent, trying to stop it and just let the Lord deal with it, it that's what he really wants and if he ever shows up

Give me a break. Where were all you anti protestors when Ferguson was burning, Trump rally attendants were being assaulted, Antifa was beating people with bike locks and Republican offices were being set on fire???

If you wanted me to give a damn about people being hassled at abortion clinics you all should've been there when the First Amendment was under attack by the left.

What patriotic American doesn't like to see neo-nazis getting their asses kicked and generally being fucked over? 

So Ben Shapiro- a Jewish conservative critical of Trump- was being a neo Nazi when he went to speak at a university in CA and they had to spend $600,000 to secure his safety from leftist mobs?

No, he was probably just being a trump asshole licker. 

No, he was probably just being a trump asshole licker.

He is a Lukid apologist that attacked people who support the BDS movement.

Give me a break. Where were all you anti protestors when Ferguson was burning, Trump rally attendants were being assaulted, Antifa was beating people with bike locks and Republican offices were being set on fire???

Sources and citations please?  I won't hold my breath.  

All of these things against republicans were probably done by republicans to put the blame on Anti-facists and democrats/progressives/liberals.  

You want sources? Ok, here you go:

google

google

google

Yeah, nice try, yes that office was vandalized but, at the same time this happened,

But Orange County Democratic Party Chair Matt Hughes told Raw Story on Monday that vandals had also targeted his offices in Carrboro. Both attacks were said to have occurred early Sunday morning.

According to Hughes, staffers found the words “Death to Capitalism” scrawled on the OCDP headquarters when they came into work.

“There’s a chilling effect,” he explained. “We have staff and we have volunteers who work in that office… I’m one of those folks who sometimes works late into the night in a party office and you wonder about your safety when you look at things like what happened [to the GOP office] in Hillsborough or something like ‘Death to Capitalism.’ A lot of folks see that as a threat, not even a veiled threat.”

rawstory

You also seem to have forgotten this,

cnn

petoskeynews

thedenverchannel

Remember Sarah Palins map?

Nice try with your Palin map but even the left wing media doesn't support that meme anymore:

"The editorial suggested a connection between a map of targeted electoral districts circulated by Ms. Palin’s political action committee and the 2011 mass shooting by Jared L. Loughner that severely wounded Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The Times later issued a correction, saying there was no link between political rhetoric and the shooting."

google

And saying there are people on the right who engage in violence doesn't justify anything.

And saying there are people on the right who engage in violence doesn't justify anything

Well it seems Republicans constantly use Bill Clinton and any Democrat who has been accused of sexual misconduct to justify any Republican like Roy Moore and Donald Trumps sexual misconduct, why the double standard? Right wing anti-abortion violence includes everything from shooting doctors in the head while they attend church to blowing up clinics killing security guards and nurses, I haven't heard of any antifa killing anyone, have you? Or is defacing a political office the same as murdering doctors in your estimation?

Nice try with your Palin map but even the left wing media doesn't support that meme anymore:

Nice try, you totally ignored the rest of my post and, focused on the Palin map, maybe if you had paid some attention to the details you would have noticed that part of the story here talks about an attack on the Democratic headquarters in the same town, at the same time as the one on the Republican headquarters. It would seem someone has something against BOTH party's there.

what the hell does Ferguson have to do with the seeded topic?

Just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks . . . always off topic

Pointing out the hypocritical beliefs of the left regarding using violence to prohibit others from their rights is on topic. If you don't want to address the 800 pound gorilla about the double standard in regards to abortion clinic protestors, then just say the hypocrisy doesn't bother you.

only when it comes from the right

Pointing out the hypocritical beliefs of the left regarding using violence to prohibit others from their rights is on topic.

No, you're just derailing form the discussion.

If you don't want to address the 800 pound gorilla about the double standard in regards to abortion clinic protestors, then just say the hypocrisy doesn't bother you

What's bothersome is your asinine posts. Let us know when you actually have something relevant to say.

Where were all you anti protestors when Ferguson was burning, Trump rally attendants were being assaulted, Antifa was beating people with bike locks and Republican offices were being set on fire???

Nice Red Herring and off topic as well.

If you wanted me to give a damn about

women's rights to control their own bodies and lives.

That is what this discussion is about.  The men who view women as livestock to be owned and controlled for a man's benefit.

This is a societal issue that involves every aspect of a woman's life, not just the right to birth control.

Female children are taught from an early age not to offend males in words, manner or dress or suffer the consequences of violence and even rape. 

Females are taught to not to compete with males intellectually because males don't like smart women.  (Studies have proven this.)

Females are taught "homemaking" skills that are centered around taking care of men who lack the skills to learn how to cook, do dishes, do laundry and clean house.

Men should use 100% of their time learning skills to take care of themselves and developing partnership skills that make them worthy of having relationships with women.

The would be slave owners need to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Females are taught to not to compete with males intellectually because males don't like smart women.

I hear this constantly. Apparently, I am supposed to be intellectually subservient to knuckle-dragging morons. 

You do know there are a lot of pro life women, right? Just because you are ok with not caring if or when a fetus becomes a baby doesn't mean everybody is cool with not caring. If you want to talk about subservience we could go back to ancient Roman times when fathers had the legal rights to kill their children. I guess the unborn are always subservient until they get out of the womb and get big enough to defend themselves.

well they can have THEIR babies and not put their noses in other people's business

A fetus becomes a baby at birth. As for your Roman times reference, that is just a Strawman argument, and completely irrelevant. 

You do know there are a lot of pro life women, right?

Nobody is forcing them or anyone else to have an abortion.

Just because you are ok with not caring if or when a fetus becomes a baby doesn't mean everybody is cool with not caring.

A fetus becomes a human with all of their rights when they live separate from the body of the mother.  Why should a fetus be permitted to take away the rights of the mother when they area biological parasite?  

How many abortions have you been forced to endure against your will?

You do know that pro-life women have had abortions and we all know pro-life men want their mistresses to have abortions.  

Not if they are a true Christian

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ 

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

How many people who wanted to enter heaven have done so?

How are demons cast out in the 21st century?

we all know pro-life men want their mistresses to have abortions.

Especially, those in public life to save their political reputations. Can't have a bunch of luv children running around to blackmail them, eh?

I think proselytizing is against the CoC now. Even so, it has no place or relevance here!

That's what most teavangelicals will hear at the pearly gates, just before taking the express elevator to hell.

Dear gawd I hope not....I was hoping to get some peace and quiet from those people when I go to hell

Apparently, I am supposed to be intellectually subservient to knuckle-dragging morons.

Yes.  I was told it was because men are "fragile" and have "fragile" egos. 

Evidently, men are constantly suffering about worrying about how they compare to other men. 

It wears them out to the point that they have to have the emotional/mental safety net of believing that the physical appendage of a penis makes them mentally and physically superior to everyone without a penis.

Just because you are ok with not

telling other women that they are nothing except brainless incubators for a male's sperm.

I make it a point to tell women that they should make their own reproductive decisions 100% of the time because it is their mental and physical health that they should safeguard if they want to optimize their life.

In a free society, women have no obligation to ever have a child. 

In a free society, men have no obligation (or right) to ever father a child.

I was hoping to get some peace and quiet from those people when I go to hell

It wears them out to the point that they have to have the emotional/mental safety net of believing that the physical appendage of a penis makes them mentally and physically superior to everyone without a penis.

I'm tired of dealing with dipsticks who think that have a golden path in life because they were born with a Y chromosome.  I've been told that engineering is not my place and I should be a teacher a nurse or a cook instead because I am female. I tend to respond by finding the mistakes in their work or taking their clients from them because I am better dealing with people. My daughter is still learning this lesson and to this day plays nice with the victims of testosterone poisoning instead of putting on her bitch stilettos.

I love men (that is the subject of another thread) but I will not play second fiddle to any man purely because of his anatomy.

I've been told that engineering is not my place

I've been told that I was not the equal of men on the farm (or anywhere else) by my (ex) husband.  So I went to work for Wal-Mart corporate.  Within a few weeks, my husband was bitching about his "help" who were afraid of the cattle and didn't stock the necessary supplies to work the cattle.

I just laughed and said, "I don't want to hear it.  You wanted to work with pricks.  Deal with it."

My daughter is still learning this lesson and to this day plays nice with the victims of testosterone poisoning instead of putting on her bitch stilettos.

My daughter has finally lessened up on judging me for not playing nice with sexist men.

She kept telling me that it was "my generation" and "her generation" was not that way.

She earns several times more money than her husband.  She is becoming incensed in the way she is being treated in financial situations with bankers, insurance reps, etc. who communicate with her husband as if she should have no input on their business ventures.

Within a few weeks, my husband was bitching about his "help" who were afraid of the cattle and didn't stock the necessary supplies to work the cattle.

That is the only way that some people learn.

 I left a job because the boss publicly reprimanded me but privately I was doing his work because he was unable to do so. Then he took the credit for it while I was made to look like the incompetent sod.  I already had a new job lined up when I set him up for a very public failure by not taking the fall for him after I left.  He was fired a week later when the truth came out and they begged me to come back and clean up his mess. 

 I said no because the new job was more pay and less testosterone.

Then he took the credit for it while I was made to look like the incompetent sod.

Been there, done that.

I have never been a fan of the dog eat dog corporate world.  But then again, I work on honing my own skills instead of sabotaging other people in an effort to make up for whatever I am lacking in job competence.

Peace & quiet???  I thought we were going to party like Hell.....

<groan>

I really need a nap...but what the hell....I'm up for a party!

Just because you are ok with not caring if

I am brainwashed by men to help them control other women into being meek, mild, submissive doormats for men.

I have to admit that I was invited to be a member of the "good" woman society, but I believe that women should walk, talk, and dress to please themselves instead of having to live in fear of being labeled a "bad" girl who deserves to be "put in her place" and even raped.

But then again, I work on honing my own skills instead of sabotaging other people in an effort to make up for whatever I am lacking in job competence.

I didn't have to sabotage him. All I had to do was to stop propping him up  and letting him walk on me and he collapsed on his own.  I got tired of playing nice and letting him have all of the glory for my efforts.

I hate corporate mind games. Id love to go out on my own and freelance but I don't want to do my job and run a business at the same time.

If you want to talk about subservience

I can play dominant to your submissive.

Do you want a safe word?  I usually insist on it, but in special cases, I can make an exception.

I didn't have to sabotage him

I apologize if you thought I directed that comment at you in any way.  I was speaking in general.

I worked with people who actually lied about and/or drove off fellow employees in an effort to get promoted.

Of course, these people could not do the job they had, but were delusional enough to believe that they had the skills to take on more important and varied responsibilities.

Just a small & short one - couple millennium - that's all.  

Id love to go out on my own and freelance but I don't want to do my job and run a business at the same time.

My daughter and her husband are working full-time jobs, plus doing some real estate development and my daughter is talking about going back to college and getting her Master's degree.

It makes me tired just thinking about it.

I preferred a work/home/play balance in life where I could enjoy my days instead of dread them.

However, some people find as much joy in making money as I did riding horses.

Of course, these people could not do the job they had, but were delusional enough to believe that they had the skills to take on more important and varied responsibilities.

I've seen those types.   I can do the job well enough. Its the people around me that I have a problem with because I hate or I'm not good at playing mind games. Its very stressful for me to have to come to work, do my job and still play psychologist with 1/3 of the office employees emotional nonsense. 

There are days when I wish that AI was more advanced so we could replace the emotional mind games with a reliable robot that didn't need so someone stroke its ego. 

I need to watch my sarcasm because I am almost convinced that saying the wrong thing to someone when I haven't had enough coffee will eventually be my cause of death.

I preferred a work/home/play balance in life where I could enjoy my days instead of dread them.

I like the intellectual challenge but I get burnt out so easily when work becomes repetitive and tedious. 

"A fetus becomes a human with all of their rights when they live separate from the body of the mother. Why should a fetus be permitted to take away the rights of the mother when they area biological parasite?"

So by your definition a eight and a half month old baby still in the womb is still a fetus able to be aborted. That is nothing but infanticide and not protected by the current abortion laws. That extreme definition of a fetus is what keeps people and states pushing back to protect the lives of babies.

So by your definition a eight and a half month old baby still in the womb is still a fetus able to be aborted. That is nothing but infanticide and not protected by the current abortion laws. That extreme definition of a fetus is what keeps people and states pushing back to protect the lives of babies.

The idea of the day for you is............ age of viability, without extreme medical intervention.

Would you like me to explain it to you?

"telling other women that they are nothing except brainless incubators for a male's sperm."

If women keep lying down with men and not using birth control or common sense then they made the choice to be "brainless incubators", didn't they? 

play psychologist with 1/3 of the office employees emotional nonsense.

I believe it actually helped when our department was sent to team building classes where we took personality tests and discussed them.

I learned not to expect much from the social butterflies and needy people learned to avoid talking to me unless it involved work.  LOL!

It was one of those "win-win" scenarios we discussed in negotiation classes.

I need to watch my sarcasm because I am almost convinced that saying the wrong thing to someone when I haven't had enough coffee will eventually be my cause of death.

I did not speak to co-workers before 10 am or even acknowledge their existence.  I'm pretty much that way still.  I have never been a morning person.  I am a creature of the night.

If women keep lying down with men and not using birth control or common sense then they made the choice to be "brainless incubators", didn't they?

Absolutely not.

Birth control fails.

Having sex is not consent to being pregnant.

Abortion is a form of birth control when other methods have failed.

Women have the option to make the choice to use whatever method of birth control that is necessary to not be a "brainless incubator".  That choice includes abortion.

skirting the CoC [ph]

Having sex is not consent to being pregnant.

I do not understand why some people do not get that.  But then again those are the people that think children should be punishment for women having & enjoying sexual lives.

Women have the option to make the choice to use whatever method of birth control that is necessary to not be a "brainless incubator".

I don't think you answered the question.  Sex is not just for pleasure, it is also part of our basic reproduction.  That is fairly basic, wouldn't you agree?  I don't know of anyway to change our basic biology.

Either way could result in a pregnancy.  I believe the non-brainless women that we are, understand the options and choices.  

Having sex is not consent to being pregnant.

Having sex does not mean that a man wants to be a father and having to pay to raise a child for the next eighteen or more years. 

---

Abortion is a form of birth control when other methods have failed.

Or when other methods of birth control are not used at all. 

Either way could result in a pregnancy.

Of course.  The majority of sex is for pleasure, not procreation.  Otherwise, there would not be a demand for Viagra for the elderly guys who can't get or sustain an erection.

But if one method of birth control fails and a pregnancy occurs, then abortion is a birth control option to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.  

guttmacher

Rates of unintended pregnancy have decreased globally since 1990, according to a new  study  published today in  The Lancet Global Health . While the unintended pregnancy rate fell worldwide from 1990–1994 to 2010–2014, it dropped less sharply in developing regions (16%) than in developed regions (30%). 

The difference between overall unintended pregnancy rates in developing and developed regions is notable: In 2010–2014, there were 65 unintended pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15–44 in developing regions, compared with 45 per 1,000 women in developed regions. The high unintended pregnancy rate in developing regions corresponds with a substantial unmet need for contraception in these parts of the world.

“Women and couples increasingly want to control the timing and spacing of their births, and to have smaller families,” noted   Jonathan Bearak , lead author of the study and senior research scientist at the Guttmacher Institute. “Yet progress in reducing unintended pregnancy has been uneven across regions.”

Worldwide, more than half (56%) of unintended pregnancies ended in abortion in 2010–2014.

The authors urge continued investments in health care programs and policies in order to ensure that women and couples have access to contraceptives and family planning services. It is also crucial to make or keep safe abortion services available, since—even if the need for contraceptives is fully met—contraceptive methods may fail from time to time. Together, these efforts are essential to helping women safely achieve their reproductive goals.

“It is critical for governments to prioritize making the full range of contraceptive services available, so that women and couples are able to choose the method that best fits their needs, to plan and space their pregnancies, and to prevent unintended pregnancy,” says   Sneha Barot , senior policy manager at the Guttmacher Institute.

so what do you do to avoid an unwanted pregnancy?

Having sex does not mean that a man wants to be a father and having to pay to raise a child for the next eighteen or more years.

I agree. 

These issues should be discussed prior to having sex.  Which means that a boy's parents is responsible for teaching him about birth control methods that are available to him and how to use them properly.  Also, why he should be able to discuss sex with his partner before having sex.  If he isn't able to do this, then he isn't mature enough to have sex at any age.

The majority of sex is for pleasure, not procreation

I don't see why it matters.  Either way can result in a pregnancy and is a choice for most.

As I believe the original comment 4.5.33 was referring to.

I did not speak to co-workers before 10 am or even acknowledge their existence.

There are more than a few days that I could interact with people via only email and prefer it that way. 

 I have never been a morning person.  I am a creature of the night.

I do my best thinking between 10 pm and 2 am.  Thoughts in my mind clear up and become easily in the dark and quite of the night. I wish that I knew why.

Or when other methods of birth control are not used at all.

If a guy doesn't use a condom, 100% of the time, then he needs to STFU if an unintended pregnancy occurred because he did not do his part to prevent it.

I have had this conversation with my husband who (maybe) has a son that he says was not his fault in conceiving in a prior relationship.

He has learned to quit blaming women for unintended pregnancies within hearing distance of me.

1. I’ll know when I get there

2 demons are still cast out the same way.  In the name of Jesus by those who are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit

I don't see why it matters.

Me, neither. 

However, it seems to matter a great deal to the people who make it their business to harass women who seek to terminate their unwanted pregnancies via legal abortion.

Oh, you brought it up in a reply talking about choice of pregnancy.  Seems to reason you where making a point with it.

Thoughts in my mind clear up and become easily in the dark and quite of the night.

Me, too.  It is probably related to sensory overload.  

I still go outside after midnight, gaze at the stars and feel at one with existence in the same way I did as a child.

My adopted father used to lock my younger sibling and me outside in the dark to hear her scream.  I used to wrap my arms around her to make her feel safe because I knew there was nothing in the dark that wasn't there in the daylight.  It just felt more alive somehow.  I found it comforting and it terrified her.  Our adopted father was a sadist who loved terrorizing and beating little girls, but our biological fathers were no different.

talking about choice of pregnancy

What is confusing to you about a woman's choice and right to either carry or terminate a pregnancy?

I believe that everyone involved in this discussion knows that pregnancy can result when two fertile members of the same species, but opposite gender, has sex.  

If the parties having sex does not know this, then they are likely a lower life form that is driven to have sex only for procreation purposes via heat cycles that result in times of birth that is optimal for the survival of the offspring.

Human beings of reproductive age should not be that ignorant.

I do not understand why some people do not get that.

Faulty wiring in their brains that caused holier than thou busybody syndrome?

---

If a guy doesn't use a condom, 100% of the time, then he needs to STFU if an unintended pregnancy occurred because he did not do his part to prevent it. 

So according to you it's all the man's fault and the woman was just an innocent bystander with no responsibility for the consequences .

You want it both ways. You claim the woman has control of her body but not when it comes to having sex . Choose one. Either she has control and thus is responsible for the consequences or she does not have control. 

Ridiculous.  I was working with female engineers more than 35 years ago and none of us considered them unequal or that they didn’t belong in engineering. Leftist are obsessed with creating stereotypes and circumstances that don’t really exist except in rare occasions 

Gender bias is still a major problem with engineering because 1/4 of female engineering graduates leave the field.  It is so obvious now that it is considered a rite of passage when it happens the first time.

nspe

chicagotribune

hbr

news.wbfo

All Christians think that they go to heaven but we know that cannot be true.  How do you plan to tell us that you got there, instead of merely being recycled as worm chow as science suggests that we are after death?

In the name of Jesus by those who are born again and filled with the Holy Spirit

It is an ineffective now as it was 200 years ago.

What is confusing to you about a woman's choice and right to either carry or terminate a pregnancy?

Who was talking about termination?  Can you not follow the conversation?  The post comments where about choice of becoming pregnant or not.  It is quite simple.

I believe that everyone involved in this discussion knows that pregnancy can result when two fertile members of the same species, but opposite gender, has sex.

Apparently not everyone.

Apparently not everyone.

Who are these people who didn't pass middle school biology class?

The post comments where about choice of becoming pregnant or not.  It is quite simple.

wait... do you mean there's a choice during sex that a woman has to make on whether or not to become pregnant ?

does the sperm ask the egg politely whether or not it'd like to be fertilized and let's the egg decide ?

I believe that everyone involved in this discussion knows that pregnancy can result when two fertile members of the same species, but opposite gender, has sex.

as you see - there is the the phrase "pregnancy can result" - doesn't mean there is a choice in the matter, it means there's a chance.

So according to you it's all the man's fault and the woman was just an innocent bystander with no responsibility for the consequences .

I will repeat what  I typed.  

If a guy doesn't use a condom, 100% of the time, then he needs to STFU if an unintended pregnancy occurred because he did not do his part to prevent it.

Did you skip over "his part to prevent" or don't understand that a man has an obligation to use a condom to prevent an unplanned pregnancy?  

A man who doesn't want the obligation of child support should never ever rely on the woman's birth control method (other than sterilization) because it might fail.

The post comments where about choice of becoming pregnant or not.

Consenting to sex is not consenting to become pregnant and carrying that pregnancy to term.  Do you believe differently?

If a woman doesn't want to become pregnant she should take all precautions to prevent it because condoms have been know to fail. See I works both ways .If a woman does want a baby she can take precautions or stay out of the sack just like a man .

So by your definition a eight and a half month old baby still in the womb is still a fetus able to be aborted.

No, an 8 1/2 month fetus is still a fetus in the womb. That's the medical definition. And no, it can't be aborted, as abortions at that stage are not allowed. Somehow, I think you already know this but are just trying to be obtuse about and making yourself look foolish in the process!

That is nothing but infanticide and not protected by the current abortion laws.

No one ever said it was. See previous statement.

That extreme definition of a fetus is what keeps people and states pushing back to protect the lives of babies.

The definition of a fetus is a gestational period from 8 weeks to birth. What is "extreme" about that exactly? 

If women keep lying down with men and not using birth control or common sense then they made the choice to be "brainless incubators", didn't they?

No, they didn't! And that's quite a misogynistic thing to say.

Having sex does not mean that a man wants to be a father and having to pay to raise a child for the next eighteen or more years.

If he get's pregnant, then he can have an abortion too. Problem solved.

Or when other methods of birth control are not used at all.

Irrelevant! 

If a woman doesn't want to become pregnant she should take all precautions to prevent it because condoms have been know to fail. See I works both ways .If a woman does want a baby she can take precautions or stay out of the sack just like a man .

Precautions sometimes fail. When they do, if she doesn't want a baby, then she can have an abortion too. So what's the problem?

If

the man and the woman both use birth control to avoid an unplanned pregnancy, then it is very unlikely that there will be an unplanned pregnancy.

If the man and woman are not mature and/or intelligent enough to use birth control, they probably should not be reproducing because raising a child is far more complicated than using birth control.

Consenting to sex is not consenting to become pregnant and carrying that pregnancy to term.If you 

Now you are moving the goal post again.  

Have we settled on choice yet?  You would agree that we need to consider all the possibilities and outcomes of the choices we make.  Is intercourse not a reproduction act that was agreed to?  Are you stating that consenting to sex is not consenting to the possibility of pregnancy?  What sense does that make?  Unless one is completely unaware of how the female body functions then that statement would be illogical.  Most women, not young girls, are well aware of how a pregnancy develops.  I hope you feel that women are more intelligent than not being aware of what they are consenting to.

As far as abortion....that is a personal choice, just like a choice to have intercourse or not. 

As far as abortion....that is a personal choice,

And it should remain a choice, regardless of any other "choices" that precedes it.

Are you stating that consenting to sex is not consenting to the possibility of pregnancy?

No. 

What I am stating is that IF a pregnancy occurs, then it is the woman's choice of whether to carry it or terminate it.

I hope you feel that women are more intelligent than not being aware of what they are consenting to.

I feel that women are intelligent enough to make their own reproductive decisions if an unintended pregnancy occurs.

Seems like you where stating that consenting to intercourse is not consenting to a pregnancy.  You did combine it all in one sentence.

Abortion is a separate decision, I would say.

Glad that we can agree on consent and choices.

Seems like you where stating that consenting to intercourse is not consenting to a pregnancy.

absolutely - you are only consenting to intercourse and nothing more. You are increasing your chances of getting pregnant if you are not using any kind of protection to prevent pregnancy - but that doesn't mean you are necessarily consenting to getting pregnant. Using your "logic" - then women are consenting to not having an orgasm every time (so they can no longer blame men, they made the conscious choice to not orgasm according to you since they consented and made the conscious choice to have intercourse, right ?). 

If you are going to commit sexual acts (like intercourse) with someone and are unaware if they have an STD (which they could be unaware as well) - are you consenting to catching that STD and shouldn't be upset over it ?

Good analogy.

If you wanted me to give a damn about people being hassled at abortion clinics

So you don't care about people being hassled, especially when they might be at an emotionally vulnerable time? That's speaks volumes about you.

you all should've been there when the First Amendment was under attack by the left.

What about the right's attack on the 14th Amendment?

The 14th Amendment? The one pushed through by Republicans to fix the evils of slavery practiced by Democrats? The one that has absolutely nothing to do with abortion?

forcing a woman to carry and raise an unwanted child is slavery

If nobody forced her to get pregnant then nobody can force her to have a baby. That's like saying somebody who chose to get drunk was forced to have a hangover.

hangovers go away after a short time, unwanted pregnancy lasts longer and is followed by years of costs

Apparently you are not familiar with the  Roe v Wade case, in which the SCOTUS determined abortion was a right under the 14th Amendment. 

The 14th Amendment? The one pushed through by Republicans to fix the evils of slavery practiced by Democrats? The one that has absolutely nothing to do with abortion?

Your knowledge of US history is lacking. The northern Democrats were abolitionists long before the Civil War happened.  The rights contained in the 14th are most certainly not limited to slavery.

In the Election of 1860, the Democratic Party split into two parties, the Northern Democratic Party and the Southern Democratic Party. By the late 1850s, the Democratic Party was split over the issue of slavery. Northern Democrats generally opposed slavery's expansion while many Southern Democrats believed that slavery ...

Lincoln fought the Civil War to keep the union together but he did not believe in equal rights for blacks.  He was no an abolitionist.

Abraham Lincoln immortalized himself in American history by the role that he played in abolishing the institution of slavery, but he arrived at this distinction only after a long career of opposition to abolitionism.

If nobody forced her to get pregnant then nobody can force her to have a baby.

Did your high school biology teacher forget to tell you that getting pregnant isn't a conscious choice for women? If we had a choice to get pregnant then we wouldn't need to use birth control to do otherwise.  You are trying to shame women who have sex. 

Not slavery.  Servitude is a better description.

Getting pregnant isn’t a conscious choice?  It sure was in my marriage when my wife demanded that we make babies

It sure was in my marriage when my wife demanded that we make babies

 You wife apparently made a decision to want to get pregnant and as such didn't use any form of birth control.

If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant that decision doesn't stop her body from becoming pregnant if she doesn't use birth control. 

If we could make the conscious decision not to get pregnant then we wouldn't need to use various artificial methods of birth control to keep it from happening. 

You are trying to shame women who have sex.

Especially, those who have sex for pleasure. That's a No No to the rabid religious extremes. After all, they view women as nothing more than brood sows, to do as they are told and are not allowed to derive pleasure out of being rutted to breed.

Getting pregnant isn’t a conscious choice?  It sure was in my marriage when my wife demanded that we make babies

so are you stating that your wife and you had sexual relations in a special certain way that would 100% ensure that she would get pregnant ? you should tell everyone about this (including medical professionals) - so those women who have sex but don't want to get pregnant know exactly what acts to consciously avoid.

'It sure was in my marriage when my wife demanded that we make babies'

Did you find that icky?

Skirting the CoC "BF"

BFd

Good one!!!!!!

"hangovers go away after a short time, unwanted pregnancy lasts longer and is followed by years of costs"

Then I guess people should do whatever they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies, shouldn't they?? Perhaps using a certain amount of common sense would go a long way.

It was for me

"Apparently you are not familiar with the Roe v Wade case, in which the SCOTUS determined abortion was a right under the 14th Amendment."

Ah, yes. That same great SCOTUS responsible for the Dred Scott decision. They are infallible, aren't they?

Then I guess people should do whatever they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies, shouldn't they?? Perhaps using a certain amount of common sense would go a long way.

I agree.  And maybe it should be easier for women to get a tubal ligation before they are thirty or have three children.  None of the gynos my daughter has seen would perform the surgery even though pregnancy could kill her until she turned 30 because "she may change her mind".  Lucky for her her father and I have preached "safe sex" and supplied condoms when necessary since she became sexually active (did the same thing for our son - told him always use a condom regardless of what the woman tells you).  BUT if the birth control does not work (happened to me as a teen) then a woman has every right to end a pregnancy.  Women are people with rights, birth certificates, birthdays... or do conception certificates get issued and do we celebrate conception day?  Do we claim embryos as dependents?

None of the gynos my daughter has seen would perform the surgery even though pregnancy could kill her until she turned 30 because "she may change her mind".

Maybe keep trying...my daughter had a tubal litigation right after the birth of her last child.  Had it before she left the hospital.   She was 28.  

Ah, yes. That same great SCOTUS responsible for the Dred Scott decision. They are infallible, aren't they?

When did conservatives start to oppose Dred Scott?

Do I need to remind of the mistakes of the conservative decisions in Korematsu, Bush v. Gore, Heller, Citizens United, Kelo and Hobby Lobby? 

But she had children already.  They will do that.  After the woman has produced.  At this point it is not an issue since she turned 30.

My point is that it should not be an issue at all.  My son asked his PCP at the age of 18 for a vasectomy and he scheduled it for that day.  See the point.  

Really?  I will have to ask my gyno about that.  Seems the option would be up to the patient.  Especially when getting pregnant would harm the patient.  Doesn't make sense.  

Then women should be able to get a tubal at 18.

Doctors......

I agree totally.

You would think, but you know us women change our minds at the drop of a hat. While men never change their minds.

yeah...women are soooooooo fickle

"When did conservatives start to oppose Dred Scott?

Do I need to remind of the mistakes of the conservative decisions in Korematsu, Bush v. Gore, Heller, Citizens United, Kelo and Hobby Lobby?"

Dred Scott was a decision that benefitted Democrat slave holders at the time and nobody has supported it since the Civil War ended. And I'll just note that by your own admission the SCOTUS can get it wrong. Just because they had to step in to stop the Gore fishing expedition in FL and couldn't force companies to supply specific types of birth control doesn't mean they got it wrong in those cases though.

I made no such statement. I was specific that my wife getting pregnant was a choice, not something she was forced into

and if that fails there is absolutely not one thing wrong with an abortion

Nonsense.  Christianity sex is wonderful.  Husbands and wives are to seek the sexual fulfillment of each other.  If my wife doesn’t have as many orgasms as she wants, then I would be failing her.  

Christianity sex is wonderful.

Christianity cannot even agree on the Bible and you are claiming that Christianity has a specific kind of sex?

You have sex for pleasure and not procreation?  YOU'RE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL YOU HELLBOUND FORNICATOR

What, no scripture to back up those claims?

Christianity sex is wonderful.

What is "Christianity sex"....the missionary position where a dude lies on top of a woman and grunts a few times before he rolls over and falls asleep?

If my wife doesn’t have as many orgasms as she wants, then I would be failing her.

That comment is  just  begging for a comeback (ooooops, that was a close one) response knowing full well I'd get suspended for at least a week.  Get thee behind me, you-know-who.

They do, it' called the missionary position...

Sounds more likely than the multiple orgasms some are claiming to provide

At times the comments from some on NT are more enjoyable than the ''comedy club''...Christianity  Sex....WTH.

You do a cartwheel, first, then, a back flip and the finality is tying your hands to the ceiling fan going round and round! We Christians are very creative.

We Christians are very creative.

Oh, that's beyond doubt.  Your imaginations seem to have no limit. 

I made no such statement. I was specific that my wife getting pregnant was a choice, not something she was forced into

it was a choice ? how was this choice made - by specific sexual acts that were performed or did her egg ask politely to be fertilized or what ? sex (whether or not there is protection used) does not always result in pregnancy. your wife didn't make a conscious choice to get pregnant, she increased her chances by not using protection, that's all.

Ah, yes. That same great SCOTUS responsible for the Dred Scott decision. They are infallible, aren't they?

That's both a Strawman argument and a smokescreen, especially since they are completely unrelated. But the big difference is, Dred Scott didn't expand rights. Roe did.

Then I guess people should do whatever they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies, shouldn't they?? Perhaps using a certain amount of common sense would go a long way.

What difference does it make? Pregnancy can still happen if one uses birth control. Regardless, abortion is still an option and a right!

I was specific that my wife getting pregnant was a choice, not something she was forced into

Having sex or choosing to start a family is a choice. Pregnancy either happens or it doesn't.

Christianity sex is wonderful.

How is "Christianity sex" any different from other kinds of sex?

There are other ways to increase your choice of trying to get pregnant.

Taking your temperature.  With a doctor's assistance work on an ovulation chart.  The doctor using your husband's sperm inserts it vaginally.  staying on your back after sex for a certain time limit.  There is another one we used, but I'm not saying.

There is another one we used, but I'm not saying.

Turkey baster? 

There are other ways to increase your choice of trying to get pregnant.

Taking your temperature.  With a doctor's assistance work on an ovulation chart.  The doctor using your husband's sperm inserts it vaginally.  staying on your back after sex for a certain time limit.  There is another one we used, but I'm not saying.

those are ways to increase your chance of getting pregnant. you aren't making the conscious choice to get pregnant if it occurs, you are just increasing your chances. 

No doubt all Christians follow it religiously.    ( not )   ( pun intended )

Dred Scott was a decision that benefitted Democrat slave holders at the time and nobody has supported it since the Civil War ended. And I'll just note that by your own admission the SCOTUS can get it wrong. Just because they had to step in to stop the Gore fishing expedition in FL and couldn't force companies to supply specific types of birth control doesn't mean they got it wrong in those cases though.

If those slave owners were liberal democrats then why is it that Roy Moore supporting the idea that slavery was the high point of American greatness?  Why is the KKK the core of Trump's voters if slavery was a liberal idea?

For one, which families, exactly, were “united” and “strong,” as Moore claims? Black families were regularly torn apart — and tortured — by slave masters at the time. Slaves often couldn’t even marry, because their marriages were legally considered void .

Moore’s comments also lay bare what “make America great again” really means. Progressives have long asked when, exactly, America was so much better than it is today.

So every time you all orgasm, do you yell Hallelujah?

God, I hope not!

I had sex once with a missionary, actually she was a NUN. Super dirty girl too. Her name was Rosie but I called her Rosary.

That's hot. lol

If my wife doesn’t have as many orgasms as she wants, then I would be failing her.

Dude - I suspect you already are but she's just too nice to tell you.  Women also get turned on by men who are capable of rational thought.  

If you wanted me to give a damn about people being hassled at abortion clinics you all should've been there when the First Amendment was under attack by the left.

When was the First Amendment to the US constitution under attack by us lefties? Do you think that you do not have the right to be criticized and opposed by others who disagree with your ideas and or speech?  

Our First Amendment rights only protect us from being fined or arrested by the government for our speech. They do not prevent others from opposing your speech. Those protesters have free speech rights as well.

Have you never heard of Anitfa, speech codes at universities, laws prohibiting businesses in CA from communicating with ICE? All attacks on freedom of speech by the left.

Have you never heard of Anitfa,

The Antifa are not government employees.  They have the right to oppose fascism in all of its forms. Don't be a fascist or support fascist ideas and they won't be a threat to you.

speech codes at universities,

I am opposed to free speech codes and free speech zones.

laws prohibiting businesses in CA from communicating with ICE?

That has nothing to do with free speech. Those laws are to protect immigrants from a racist administration.

All attacks on freedom of speech by the left.

And yet the ACLU is still accused of being a lefty when they oppose free speech zones.

Fascists, Nazis, Supremacists and Ku Kluxers are undeserving of Constitutional protections. 

You are wrong all speech is protected acts are not it's a civics class for you maybe even two.

Free speech rights are not in any way limited to verbal communication.  Your dress, music, the written word, and artwork are also covered by that same right.

aclu

No.  Those who believe their destiny is to control and remove rights are undeserving.

Removed for Skirting the CoC "BF"

Discuss the Seed not one another.....

If you can't be civil and avoid the transparent ad hom attacks, don't bother posting here!

Another yawner.

"The Antifa are not government employees. They have the right to oppose fascism in all of its forms. Don't be a fascist or support fascist ideas and they won't be a threat to you."

Wrong. Antifa will attack ANYONE who they see as a threat, including moderates and members of the media. Antifa ARE the fascists and those who support them are enablers of violence and suppression.

Wrong. Antifa will attack ANYONE who they see as a threat, including moderates and members of the media. Antifa ARE the fascists and those who support them are enablers of violence and suppression.

What moderate conservatives or members of the media have been attacked by the Antifa?

What moderate conservatives or members of the media have been attacked by the Antifa?

Why do conservatives make wild claims that they cannot defend? Do they think that we don't notice their hyperbole? 

 People look silly if they make a claim that they cannot reasonably defend.

Generally speaking, the rise of violence in America and elsewhere in the World coincides with the rise of conservatism and legitimization of right wing philosophy.

The anti-choice movement desires to destroy the family structure by exalting the fetus at the expense of the family.

The bottom line is the prospect of 'men's' control to forbid a woman to tell 'that man' to take his 'seed' and shove it. 

The bottom line is the prospect of 'men's' control to forbid a woman to tell 'that man' to take his 'seed' and shove it.

Many of the men who are opposed to women have the right to control our reproductive choices are either religious conservatives who do not see women as their equals worthy of equal constitutional rights and social power. The other group are men who had a lover, wife or girlfriend had an abortion against their will and seek to put a stop to that ever happening without their consent. 

Ah yes.  The 'gawd people' and all of that.

The road to hell is lined on both sides with the self righteous wearing knee pads and bibs.