Pride parade in London led by anti-trans Lesbian group
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The group, organising under the Twitter hashtag “#GetTheLOut,” numbered about 10 people and were permitted to take the prime slot on the march by organisers after a brief negotiation when they had physically blocked the march from taking place.
PinkNews filmed live from the scene and were able to report that the group led the march all the way to Trafalgar Square, uninterrupted, while handing out transphobic leaflets.
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No real opinion on this. I just find the whole situation..... interesting I guess? Speaking to friends I was surprised to learn of a shared anti-trans belief among many in the LGBQ community. Granted it's a few people I know that can explain it to me and not a large cross section. They do not like the pressure from groups telling them they must be attracted to a "woman with a penis" because it's a woman or a "man with a vagina" since they identify as the sex they are attracted to.
I view this more as another example of a left leaning agenda of cultural Marxism forcing beliefs on people where they must believe 100% as they do instead of sticking with the "You don't have to believe as someone else does to accept and respect them" platform that drew me to the democrats in the past.
Actually a very small group of anti-trans radicals hijacked the march. The anti-trans folks in question are called "TERFs" (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and they've been condemned by pretty much everyone involved from the mayor to the march organizers. The TERFs aren't even LGBT per se, but now that people are aware of who they are and the hateful views they represent I doubt they'll ever again be allowed in any pride march anywhere.
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In somewhat related news the UK is preparing to completely ban "ex-gay" quackery.
It may have been radicals (or anyone who doesn't believe the same as the group)...
but the belief doesn't seem to be that extremist. Found a few articles dealing with this very issue and even from trans POV they were complaining fellow members of the LBGTQ community wouldn't date them. Surprisingly even found a blog on a trans who wouldn't date another trans person... that was a stretch for me.
Also.. what is ex-gay quackery? Like someone who was gay and isn't now speaking out against being gay?
Bot surprising that is being done in the nanny state of the U.K. Free speech isn't a big concern there. At least it isn't Germany arresting journalist that male immigrants look bad ... I have another seed on that I'm working on
LOL. I'm not surprised you think so.
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Ummmm.....so what? I don't see any relation between these radical transphobes and a person's dating preferences.
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That would be the fraudsters (usually bible-babbling extremists) who pretend they can "help" another person change their sexual orientation, despite no evidence whatsoever that such a thing is possible and abundant evidence that such attempts are harmful and can result in suicide.
Enlightened governments prohibit such practices, much as they prohibit malpractice and other kinds of fraud.
Pretty much see it the same way, except the drawing me to the democratic side of things part. Honestly, though, I find this whole thing beyond bizarre. The idea of someone with a penis feeling that they should be considered a potential sexual partner for a biologically female lesbian just because the person with a penis feels they are themselves female is hard to wrap my head around. Especially if the female lesbian is condemned for disagreeing. Especially because if she can be condemned, so can I. That is, a straight male who some other biological male who thinks they are female and thinks they should be considered a potential sexual partner for me on that basis. Insane. I can definitely understand the lesbian's complaint on this, especially the ruthless militant way LBGT activists try to force everyone into uniformity on these things.
Where do you get this nonsense claim? Trans people don't say thatothers must be attracted to them.
There has long been an anti-trans opinions among many of the LGB community because there are some people who feel that trans people are fighting for different goals than LGBQ people are.
These lesbians are militant feminists who do not see that trans women are real women. They are called TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminists) by many people in the LGBT community. These militant lesbians some how believe that transmen are lesbians because they also do not understand or choose to ignore that their gender identity is not female as it would be if they were lesbians.
How is it a nonsense claim? Do you not remember the heat Genuine got for satin he wouldn't date a trans woman? Do you think someone in the LGBQ community wouldn't get criticized for it as well?
Here is a trans man talking about how men in the gay community not wanting to date him is transphobic
You were saying?
You answered your own question.
What would a trans woman want to date a bigot? People were criticizing him because the guy is a bigot.
The guy said he wouldn't date a trans woman. Now you are calling him a bigot for not dating a trans woman..... even though you literally started the first reply with it was nonsense that trans women are saying you must be attracted to them...
wow. Can't believe people upvoted your comments when you say go from "trans people don't say you have to be attracted to them" to "you're a bigot if you wouldn't date trans"..... within one reply
Your problem is you are trying to hold epistte to some sort of consistency on her logic. I'm not trying to be a smartass or say something demeaning, but it's my opinion that logic to epistte is whatever confirms her beliefs, not something that informs them.
Clearer pic of handout. Found it amusing that the trans movement was labeled as a conservative conspiracy :/
Disarray among the left is a good thing.
This is what they get for endorsing delusion instead of treating it or learning to cope with reality.
You have a seemingly infinite number of groups in growing conflict with each other. Each group claims to have the strongest grip on the truth. The problem is that it was only about the day before yesterday that they decided what the truth is, and it will probably change again the day after tomorrow.
Believing in any god that doesn't have any empirical proof of existing is the only delusion that I know of.
deleted,
You have said that being gay and transgender are immutable characteristics not behaviors. Yet, there is no empirical evidence whatsoever that would allow you to distinguish a person who claims to be transgender from anyone else. We can tell the gender of a fetus with a simple blood test. But for gays and transgenders, the only “evidence” you have is that they said so. So saying it’s so makes it so unless they tell you that they are ex-gay or ex-trans, in which case you disregard what they say because you don’t “believe” they can change. Not only is it apparent that you only accept “proof” that furthers your agenda, it’s also clear that your “empirical proof” is actually no different than faith.
Actually you can't. But if you could which of the 6 viable genetic sex karyotypes are you? Have you ever had yours tested so that you know?
I missed another juicy reply. I must have a gift for pushing conservative men over the edge of the CoC.
Yes, there is. You can do an MRI on the brain and tell the gender of the brain, which would be incongruent with the chromosomal gender of the same person's body.
Why is this such a problem for you? Is there something that you don't understand or do you need to hate LGBT people because you believe that they chose to be this way and could change to being both CIS and heterosexual if they wanted to? You cannot change your gender identity or sexual orientation though prayer or any form of counseling. It is harmful to the person to even attempt to change it.
Apparently I ran afoul of the CoC, so I will rephrase what I said. Hopefully it will pass whatever the test is.
You do not believe God exists, or, more precisely, you see no evidence of a God existing. That's fine. That's your choice. However, your statement as quoted exemplifies your typical argument. Basically, whatever you wish to be true, except the existence of God apparently, is perfectly legitimate. Apparently, all someone has to do is declare they are female, whether that's empirically true or not, is good enough for you. It is difficult to take someone, such as yourself, seriously when you're constantly championing "empirical evidence" on a constant basis, yet ignore such empirical evidence when it doesn't suit you.
Admitting that they are female to someone else is only the very start of the process. There are hundreds of hours of psychological counseling with therapists who have a Masters or Ph.D., in addtion to testing that happen before they are given the OK by a group of Drs and psychologists to start hormone therapy. That counseling continues for another year and probably 2-3 years or longer.
The real life test when they live 24-7 as a member of their identified gender is 2 years before they may get the OK for reassignment surgery. This is a very long and painful process to weed people out who might have other conditions or you might only be transvestites.
This will give you some idea of the process,
Another pointless, off-topic attempt at distracting from the hard truth of the seeded topic. Not surprising. Sad, but not surprising.
A person is still either male or female. I don't care if people act male or female, but biologically, they are what they are.
Virtually no one who is trans is doing that.
Transgendered people aren't delusional about their psychological gender identity being at odds with their biological gender. I do have to wonder why conservative men have such a difficult time understanding this subject? Is it because they are possibly closeted themselves and feel that they cannot come out due to their family or religious beliefs or do they possibly feel guilty because they look at transgendered porn and don't want to admit that they might be aroused by it?
It does not matter if the test is commonly done. The point is that they can tell that the gender of the brain is different and that there is empirical evidence that transgendered people are not delusional. Maybe in 5 years that will be used as a diagnostic technique.
Your sense of self is determined by your psychological gender identity. What you see in the mirror or what others see when they look at you is your biological gender and that conundrum that people are seeing someone that they aren't is the core of what causes gender dysphoria problems for the untreated trans' person. They want people to see and to be able to live as who they are inside. How is that treatment a problem for you?
What people see isn't your biological sex. That is nonsense. Your biological sex has to do with various genetic factors. Your sex organs, DNA, reproduction method... etc.
im naturally blonde. If I dye my hair black that doesn't magically make me biologically a brunette
they see your gender - which is dictated by your gender identity , correct ?
which is usually not seen - so we are just looking at gender and not biological sex , it looks like we are talking about gender and not biological sex . from what you have just stated - biological sex and gender are two different things since gender is seen biological sex deals with the unseen ( well usually "unseen" in the case of sex organs
).
wait... you are back to biological - that's not seen and that's not being discussed - i thought we were discussing gender , correct ? transgendered individuals are aligning with their gender identity - their gender , what is seen, correct ? why are you injecting biological sex when we are discussing gender ?
you are naturally blonde - that's biological . yet your " hair identity " (we are going to call it that for this example, there's really no such thing as "hair identity" that i'm aware of, this is just for example purposes) states your hair is black , so you dye your hair black to match what is seen by you and everyone else . transgendered people are well aware that their biological sex involves DNA etc, but that's not what they are changing - they are changing their gender .
You have heard of intersex individuals, yes?
You're doing the science backward.
Because we are doing surgery on people based on their feelings and not based on a true physical need for surgery. It's like the nuts who get themselves turned into lizards through plastic surgery. Yeah, they look lizardish, but they not actually lizards just because they had surgery. And you can't make me treat them like lizards.
And by the way, there is legislation happening in several places to force people to acknowledge these fantasies or face criminal charges. At minimum, some people will lose their jobs (because of PC pressure) because they refuse to pretend people with mental illness are whatever their fantasy says they are. But in some cities and countries, it is becoming a crime to refuse to use certain pronouns when referring to someone with this mental illness.
We have actually known about intersex and transgenderism for a long time. We have known for a long time that the male and female brain are structured differently and that they function differently. People like you love to imagine that we found out all this brain stuff last week. It's not true.
30 years ago, when a boy would present as maybe wanting to think or act like a girl, they didn't assume he was trans. They let it go and the boy either grew out of his phase or just grew up to be a gay man with no desire at all to be a woman.
Today, based on no MRI scans and no chromosome scans, people want to give these boys hormone treatments to block puberty. Troubled adults who may be suicidal get surgery that often doesn't help instead of learning coping tools.
Based on no science, the number of allegedly trans people is 100 times what it was 30 years ago and there is no valid scientific reason for it. It's all politics. It's bullshit; it's insanity; and it's dangerous. One thing it most definitely is not, is scientific.
There might be, believe it or not. There's a thing Body Integrity Identity Disorder (which is very similar to gender dysphoria and they are sometimes comorbid). A person with BIID might, for example, be convinced that he shouldn't have his right leg - that it is somehow a foreign object in his body. And believe it or not, there are doctors that will cut it off for him.
This whole approach - i.e., chopping up the body instead of learning to cope with reality - is a kind of mass insanity, in my view.
As you might see in some of my other comments, I am very familiar with the intersex problem. But true intersex individuals are exceedingly rare. You wouldn't know that based on TV and the internet, though. They make it seem super common, but it's not. And it's not any more common today than it was 30 or 100 years ago. The great bulk of so-called trans people are not intersex.
The phrase "biological sex" sounds a bit too simplistic to be meaningful, but what other people see and respond to is a combination of one's gender expression (which is a product of one's gender identity interacting with social conventions) as well as certain morphological traits which arise at puberty. So because superstitious, dumb and bigoted people treat transgender folks very cruelly it becomes important to intervene before those puberty-related changes occur in order to align those morphological traits with one's gender identity.
I was replying to someone saying biological sex is what you see. That is untrue. Addressing your point about gender being what you see...
that is false as well. If you see someone you have an assumption what their gender identity may be based on societal norms.
You could see someone dressed in traditional "manly" clothing... that doesn't mean their gender isn't feminine.
Which, my understanding, is why a lot of the female lesbians get upset with trans. The Terfs for example believe gender norms are society based and you can be female without wearing dresses and having long hair etc.... but m2f trans seem to embrace the social norms on gender wearing dresses etc.
im not judging that aspect myself. I don't really care about that aspect. I just find the dynamic between the trans community and the rest of the LGBQ community interesting... having talked to very few people on either side about it.
Don’t be ridiculous. No one has ever been able to identify a transgendered person simply by using an MRI.
The reason you know they have gender dysphoria is because they told you, not because you discovered it through any scientific means.
Why is it so difficult for you to accept that I’m not going to be dragged into your fantasy world just because you’re comfortable in it?
Uh, yeah they can and they can do it as early as seven weeks into a pregnancy.
The process of sinking deeper into a delusion. I don’t need someone to “admit” that she’s a chicken and then go through some stupid process of getting the loon to feel comfortable in a chicken coup. I know she’s not a chicken by looking at her. She needs to go through the process of understanding that she’s not actually a chicken just because she thinks she’s one.
well you do have a point - i really don't know, there could be a "hair identity" - there's much we still don't know yet about the human brain.
i disagree based upon current information available on the topic - but i always leave viewpoints open and have ideas instead of "beliefs".
That's a remarkable claim given that a blood test at 7 weeks is long before sex differentiation caused by prenatal hormones (like reproductive morphology and sex differentiation of the brain), long before a post-natal spike in sex-related hormones, and even longer before sex-related epigenetic changes and puberty related changes, Plus such a blood test would only reveal which of the 6 viable genetic sex karyotype you are, and it wouldn't show if that genetic sex karyotype is consistent throughout your body. And not only does such a test have only a 95% accuracy rate at 7 weeks, but genetic sex karyotype is only one of many factors which contribute to gender classification and it has no direct relation to gender identity.
Conveniently you haven't mentioned which of the 6 variants you are. The vast majority of people have never had theirs tested. Have you? You should also have either an ultrasound or an autopsy performed to determine your internal reproductive morphology. You might be surprised by the results.
not entirely - you aren't basing your assumption specifically on clothing alone, you are also basing it on their outward appearance (including bone structure, hair, eyes, mouth, physical body shape etc). It's more than just seeing someone dressed in traditional "manly" clothing and it's more complex than just clothing alone. you see the gender that they wish to portray in the manner they wish to express it, not their biological sex.
those particular m2f trans might embrace those "social norms" in terms of clothing since it is easily identifiable as a specific gender for the majority of people they encounter and they want the outside world to see the gender that they know they are since it's what is dictated by their Gender Identity (which happens to be different from their biological sex). I know a couple m2f - some go for that traditional style of clothing and others don't, just like some cisgendered women go for that traditional style of clothing and others don't.
i can't say i find it that interesting overall - they are all human and humans are bound to disagree on some viewpoints no matter who they are or what "group" they belong to.
No, you have it backward and your lack of knowledge about human sexuality and psychology complicates your inability to understand. You cannot prayer away gender dysphoria, just as you cannot prayer away being gay or bisexual because religious belief is not relevant in the treatment of a med/psych problem, except to make the problem worse.
The biological gender of our bodies doesn't define who we are. In the vast majority of case our biological gender and our psychological gender identity align but for less than 1% of the population their psychological gender identity and their biological gender are incongruent. Since the person's psychological gender identity is fixed before birth and cannot be changed, medical science changes the body as much as possible to allign with the person's gender identity. You do not see a person's DNA when you interact with them so it is irrelevant to anyone but a Dr. Trans people would love to be able to change their DNA but that is impossible, and it doesn't help them live in the gender role that they see that they are.
I expected this slipperly slope question from someone. Trans' people do not think that they are a different species. If that was true then medication for delusions would cure the situation but obviously it does not if the person is transgendered. Most Drs administer the MMPI test to screen for other mental health conditions before delving deeper into the treatment of gender dysphoria.
I get the feeling that you don't understand the situation because you refuse to accept that it is possible to have a brain of one gender in the body of another gender.
The transgendered situation exists in three in 1000. It is not very common. I have an extended family member who has some level of intersexxed.
The link I posted says that you are wrong. You are in denial because if it can be diagnosed via a MRI then it cannot be a delusion or a choice.
This is from the UK Telegraph.
The sample numbers are small enough and the stigma high enough that we probably know only the lower end of that Bell curve, plus medical privacy and certain state and federal policies prevent adequate data gathering. The Williams Institute estimates 0.6 to 0.7% of the population at a minimum.
I agree. Many trans people don't seek treatment because of the social stigma, the lack of qualified care or they cannot afrord it. The trans people who do seek treatment are often confused with LGB or they pass so seamlessly and don't want to be known by the public. The legal name change makes it easy to hide when they move to a different city to transition.
The people that you meet and the people who see you determine other's gender by your primary and secondary sexual characteristics that are determined biologically. In trans people that biology is at odds with their psychological gender identity.
You are still basing it off of visual cues. I should say that I actually agree with you 99% on this in principle. However... given the latest craze over gender.. it makes no difference what you look like. Your gender is how you feel. It is a personal thing. (Again.. per the left) ... vin diesel could walk in straight off the set of Fast and Furious 26 Teatosterone balls out.... if he says he identifies as female... then his gender is female regardless of how you see him through his societal cues. You don't get to assume someone's gender... as the saying goes
If he says that he identifies as a female then he could be trans. He should then see a Dr. Why are you making their gender personal to you?
People who tend to have an exaggerated gender role tend to be hiding something because they are trying to convince themselves and others that there isn't a problem.
sonyou are saying your gender is based on how others perceive you?
Socially it is what you see in a mirror or how others interact with you.
I'm not making it personal. I don't understand the confusion. People are saying gender is how you perceive someone. That is completely false. Gender is a personal thing. How you look has 0 to do with gender. I'm especially confused I have to explain this to left wing people who are usually up on this.
yes, but not strictly clothing. Clothing is just another form of expression of gender but is part of a complex package and not standalone.
why would gender not be a personal thing ? why would someone else get to decide your gender for you if they aren't living in your body and mind ? would you like me to decide what gender you are for you or have you known your gender your whole life and determined it for yourself ?
if Vin Diesel wishes to identify as a woman, then it's his right to do so and he should seek the appropriate help for him to transition to a woman. I'm not sure why many of the conservative minded feel they should have the authority and power over someone else to determine their life for them including gender and other various issues that belong solely to the person themselves. It seems like they are stating they know what's better for people than themselves and have the right to tell people who they are and how they are allowed to act, or else these conversations wouldn't be taking place - we would simply let people have control over themselves (their bodies, minds etc) and live their lives accordingly.
from a societal point of view - this is false or else society wouldn't have developed "traditional" clothing styles for each gender
We obviously cannot see their gender identity and we cannot usually see their sexual genitalia in public so we rely on their primary and secondary sexual characteristics in public when we determine if someone is male and female when we meet them. That is why many people are uncomfortable with androgynous people because they are neither obviously female or male and we don't know how to act or refer to them.
Sounds like you don't understand the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. The former concerns which gender (or relative gender) you're attracted to, the latter is which gender you identify as.
Ha! What a pile of garbage! Substitute the word "psychology" with the word "bullshit" and you come closer to the truth.
However, the truth is that I am educated in the bullshit history of gender studies and I understand it just fine. That doesn't mean I'm going to deny reality and start buying into it.
I don't know what you're up to here. Straw man? Bullshit deflection? Did you just run out of ideas? I haven't said a word about prayer and I don't need to. Biology is on my side.
Do you even remember what you tried to argue? Because you seem to have simply moved on from it instead of addressing my objection to it. Reminder: you talked about MRI and I acknowledged that there are differences in the male and female brain but that no one is actually using MRI before announcing they are a different sex or having surgery. You said maybe they would in 5 years.
I say that's backward. It's deeply stupid to declare a change in sex and then hope for a scientific way to prove it 5 years from now.
Why do you believe that psychology is bullshit? If you disagree with the current medical/psychological approach to gender dysphoria then what is your preferred treatment for this condition?
Somehow I doubt that you have any formal knowledge except to just form an opinion that you disagree with anything but a binary male and female determined wholly on the person's physical biological gender.
My mention of you cannot pray it away is a statement that reparative therapy does cure people who are transgendered any more than reparative therapy can cure someone of being LGB.
I want to make it clear. I actually agree with you100%. I'm just making the argument from a left leaning perspective I usually hear.... that you are making an assumption based on societal cues (clothing, hair, etc).... That ultimately makes no difference. Gender ultimately is how someone feels. It's a personal thing.
Although I would like to present a food for bought thing.
Its been said your personality is not what you think it is. It's how others view you that makes your personality. While you think you are polite everyone else thinks you are an ass (no not you personally it's hypothetical lol) .... so your personality isn't polite like believe but an asshole as everyone else sees you.
is gender the same way? You could feel like a "mans man" and totally manly. However if everyone else percieves you as effeminate.... what is your gender?
I want to make it clear. I actually agree with you100%. I'm just making the argument from a left leaning perspective I usually hear.... that you are making an assumption based on societal cues (clothing, hair, etc).... That ultimately makes no difference. Gender ultimately is how someone feels. It's a personal thing.
Although I would like to present a food for bought thing.
Its been said your personality is not what you think it is. It's how others view you that makes your personality. While you think you are polite everyone else thinks you are an ass (no not you personally it's hypothetical lol) .... so your personality isn't polite like believe but an asshole as everyone else sees you.
is gender the same way? You could feel like a "mans man" and totally manly. However if everyone else percieves you as effeminate.... what is your gender?
This is what I said:
And this is how you responded:
I'm going to give you a chance to admit what you just tried to do. If this is how you have a conversation, I have to decline to take part.
I see none from you either, not that that's a guarantee of anything.
Biology tells us there are two sexes. There may be many ways to be a male or female, but a person is one or the other. What's going on in their brain doesn't change that. They may have a difficult life, but they are what they are. The idea that gender is fluid is absurd and nothing more than existential philosophy. It's not science. It's not even psychiatry. It's quackery.
It derives largely from the philosophical writing of Simone de Beauvoir and the tragic case of John Money and his sick experiments on the Reimer twins. We keep hearing that gender is a social construct. It's not. Before the aforementioned lunatics came along, gender was just another word for sex or a term that was used in romance languages to manage grammar rules.
When we talk about gender roles, what we're really talking about, by and large, is culture, nothing more.
If the organizers of the parade knew what this group is about, why did they allow them to march? These pride marches are supposed to show support for Tg's as well as the gay and lesbian people, not spew hate for one particular segment.
Sounds like they blocked the parade until they were allowed to lead it.
Put another way they’re saying that “I may be deviant but, damn, I’m not confused about my own gender.” But they are rebuked for making sense in favor of those who are more confused.
When do you and other conservatives plan to understand that gender identity and sexual orientation are different subjects?
Watching conservative males align themselves with radical man-hating feminists is hilariously ironic. These TERFS would neuter you and make you their slave if they had their choice.
One minute after you accept eveything I believe as true.
There was a time when everyone could identify a woman we he/she saw one. Now you think it’s hillarious if anybody still thinks that should still be true.
As long as we’re dreaming, they can run beside my chariot in chains when I enter Rome. lol
Your beliefs aren't based in medical science.
You have yet to understand what psychological gender identity is.
It is a mental disorder.
So now you have the answer to your question.: “Never”
There are two genders and I can easily tell one from the other.
Psychologists disagree with you.
Trans people are not saying that there is a 3rd gender. They were born with the wrong biological gendered body for their psychological gender identity. Medical science changes their body to match their gender identity.
The only 3rd gender would be androgynous or intersexxed.
So?
Actually it doesn't. All it does is make it look like it. TG "women" are no more female than I am. Just because they get the junk cut off and get breast implants does not make them women.
I know what they think. Thinking they were born in the wrong body is part of their delusion. They can think they’re really cats if they want to but that doesn’t make them a cat. And, all medical science did was cut something off or staple something on to enable a delusion instead of treating it. If you want to believe that Bruce Jenner was born to be a lesbian, then go ahead but, to me, it’s beyond ridiculous.
When do you plan to understand that is merely your own opinion?
Psychology is not a science. Of late, the only thing useful a psychologists can contribute to medical science would be their own dead bodies.
It it more than one person's opinion.
These terms have meanings. One may disagree with the APA's assessment (and many others ), but the technical meanings for these terms are not epistte's opinion.
Play close attention to the item labeled hermeneutics. Do you dismiss this because it is not 'science'?
Would it not be better to evaluate individual findings / conclusions on their merits rather than categorically dismiss entire fields of study / knowledge?
No way to get inside Jenner's head from afar but my opinion is this:
Jenner is mentally ill.
'Mental illness' is a clinical psychological diagnosis. I suspect you are not qualified to make such a diagnosis.
They have spent their professional careers doing research and learning about this condition and you read conservative blogs. Which one would you trust for accurate medical information?
I am as qualified as many of those here that say that "diagnose" Trump.
Where did you get your Ph.D. or MD?
Undergrad, Masters, PhD and internship?
You have a habit for death-wishing. Logically, that is an ad hominem fallacy. That habit also is an intellectual signal that you capitulated the argument when you choose to threaten someone rather than argue the point on its own intellectual merits in an objective manner.
Granted. And? I'm sure you don't need to be reminded of the ad populum fallacy.
Which would be a valid point if the argument concerned the definition of the terms being discussed.
My opinions are backed up by my own collegiate study of the subject and are backed up by the medical community.
Are you suggesting that your opinions of the subject are as objectively qualified as those of the medical community?
You are only seeing the outside of the person, unless you have sat down and talked to them for many hours to gain their trust to their most intimate feelings.
Concerning this subject? Absolutely.
Correct. Not only do I understand it, I know when it does not apply. Like here. Note the sequence:
You claimed that the fact that gender identity and sexual orientation are different subjects was merely epistte's opinion. That is flat out incorrect, thus my response of:
... observed that this is not merely epistte's opinion that the distinction of gender identity and sexual orientation is rather well known. I then backed that up by providing quotes from organizations representing professionals who are indeed the individuals who define terms such as 'gender identity' and 'sexual orientation'.
So epistte was providing a factual statement. You can claim that any factual statement is simply ad populum or even argument from authority but that is just playing games with fallacies. That style of reasoning would result in nothing ever being deemed a fact. No point in even discussing anything under those conditions.
The distinction of these terms is precisely the point. These terms have different meanings (definitions). Epistte observed they do not mean the same - that they are indeed different subjects. Your rebuttal is that this observation was merely her own opinion. Not true ... not even remotely true.
People die naturally and some choose to leave their bodies to science. Surely you know that. As for the rest of your comment, I’ll assume you looked up “argument”, found “logical fallacy”, and wrote it down in your comment as though it makes sense here (which it doesn’t). The one thing I did say which you ignored is that “psychology is not a science.” Psychologists are not scientists and what they think is not medical science AT ALL. Their contribution to medical science is, at best, as a cadaver.
Hysterical nonsense like this is why sensible people will no longer listen to the Loony Left. No one is interested in neutering you or making you a slave. Statements like this just showcase the Left's tendency to ignore reality.
Like fun they aren't! Facebook now recognizes 71 genders. 71! That's Kookoo for Cocoa Puffs, right there! And people think that shit is real. They want to vote and make law based on this lunacy.
LOL.......It sounds like you don't even understand what the terms "gender identity" and "sexual orientation" refer to.
The outside is all I need to see to establish gender just like all I need to see about a cat is the outside to know it’s a cat.
Like this guy, right?
No, they only decided to to stop calling it a disorder to reduce stigma (that's in the official press release on the change). It isn't any less of a flaw or a problem. They just created a euphemism to preserve the feelings of those suffering from it.
What's really needed is a look at the chromosomes.
That's false. Sounds like you have a serious problem with reading comprehension.
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Hmmmm.......sounds like a 3rd-grade knowledge of biology at best, definitely several years shy even of middle school knowledge. That only tells you which of the 6 viable genetic sex karyotypes you are, but it doesn't say much of anything beyond that. It certainly says nothing about the traits which society uses to classify gender......and note that the ability to easily inspect genetic sex karyotypes has only existed for the past few decades yet sex classifications have existed long before the current form of humans evolved.
I am not defending these TERFs or aligning myself with them. I've deat with them in the past and they are a hateful ignorant bunch. Wrap a rainbow flag around the Klan and you will get a picture of who they are.
Changing the name doesn't help trans' people deal with uninformed religious people who tell them that they can pray away their feelings or that they are delusional.
You still don't get it. A person's DNA or external genitalia does not determine their gender identity. Until you understand psychological gender identity you will continue to make these uninformed claims.
They are only 4 genders. male, female, intersexxed and maybe androgynous. Trans people are not a gender until themselves. They are transitioning from one gender to the other. Their driver's license does not say transgendered. It says male or female. The goal of the vast majority of trans people is to seamlessly blend in to the population as a member of their identified gender, just like the rest of us who are not transgendered.
Everything else is a sexual orientation. Zuckerburg is an idiot.
What supposedly lunatic law be based on transgendered people? I'd say something else about your outrageous claims but it would likely be purple ink'd. PM me if you want to know.
Don't try to be intellectually dishonest because you are just not that good at it. You want them to kill themselves because you disagree with their information. A dead body is useless to a psychologist because that would be the purview of a psychiatrist or a neurologist.
Psychology is a science because it generates information via the scientific method of a hypothesis, testing and control groups. The resulting papers are published in professional journals for peer-review. Ethically they cannot do experiments on living people in the way that physicists can.
How are you objectively qualified to discuss this subject? You certainly have an opinion on the subject, but opinions are subjective to the person.
That's a classification which is likely to change in the US over time as we move away from a primitive and rigid binary concept of sex and gender. Some states are already starting to recognize a 3rd gender corresponding to "gender fluid" or more generically "gender non-conforming". And of course the legal definition isn't necessarily the same as a scientific or medical classification which will be far more realistic about the complexities and vagueness of gender categories.
In Pakistan, India and Bangladesh some trans folks are now being treated as a 3rd gender, some Native American tribes recognized 3 genders and parts of Indonesia recognize 3 sexes and 4 or 5 genders.
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At least not here, not yet. But I suspect most trans folks here would agree with your statement.
Nope, it's 100% true . I can't help it if you're uninformed, but I can help try to correct it.
From the American Psychiatric Association :
No what really helps them is to wallow in the delusion and then demand that everybody else participate in it by using the wrong pronouns.
Although she’s ugly as shit, she has a vagina and will always be a woman no matter how much she wants to be a man.
No, he’s right. The determinations have been political for many years.
Psychology is not a science and there is no scientific way to determine that gender identity and genitalia are unrelated. That’s because gender identity and genitalia go together. If a person thinks they don’t match, and that she was born in the wrong body, it’s because of a mental disorder.
There are 2 genders: Male and Female. People have various complications and there are, of course, many ways to live as a male or female, but you are one or the other.
There are only two genders and their genitalia go together for the purpose of reproduction. Gender can’t be crossed other than in one’s mind.
There are only two genders and their genitalia go together for the purpose of reproduction. Gender can’t be crossed other than in one’s mind.
Procreation - that’s really all you care about. You’ll only be happy when you’re living in The Handmaid’s Tale.
It seems that you have a serious problem with people are not of traditional binary gender and heterosexual. Don't project that problem on others because we do not share your bias.
Are you denying that intersexxed people exist with physical genders that are variant from either male or female? Some intersexxed people are androgynous and some choose to live in traditional binary gender roles.
Trans people very often seek to have children in their identified gender role. LGB people also exist and often seek to have children via various non-hetero-normal methods.
The mind (brain) is in CEO of the sexual drive not the parts that carry out the action.
Nobody but you said anything about killing somebody and nobody but you suggested that a dead body be turned over to a psychologist or a neurologist. If you’ve never heard of leaving your body to science, then look it up before accusing me of being intellectually dishonest when, in fact, you’re just uninformed.
Psychology is not a science and there are a number of articles that explain why. And I believe I’ve given them to you before so I won’t bother doing it again. One thing that’s a particular nuisance is psychologists pretending that their discipline is a science and then dumping worthless crap into a discussion as though it’s some scientific fact.
It is not a delusion because meds that successfully treat delusions do not change a transgendered persons gender identity. You are the person with a severe problem with human sexuality. The question is what is causing your problem with anyone who isn't CIS and heterosexual? Normal people aren't threatened by trans people but you apparently see them as a threat to your beliefs.
That’s what gender is actually all about.
that sounds odd ... from what i read it's a benefit and not the intention :
from:
Humans are far more than just baby makers. Women are not less of a person after menopause. Intersexxed and infertile people are not inferior to non-interssexed people.
Ther’s no such thing as non-binary because you are, with rare exception, one gender or the other.
Being intersexed is a rare physical abnormality and a person is usually primarily one gender. That has nothing to do with people who are physically normal but believe, die roma mental disorder, that they were born in the wrong body.
No matter what they do, no one will procreate without what each of the two genders has to offer: egg and sperm.
Here's what you said: "No, they only decided to to stop calling it a disorder to reduce stigma (that's in the official press release on the change)."
That claim is false on at least two levels - first the fact that a classification still remains for specific reasons, second because stigma per se wasn't the reason for the reclassification but because being transgender isn't a mental disorder. All the APA is stating in their press release is that the fact that a diagnostic category remains at all can be stigmatizing.......and your own comments on this topic are proof of what they're saying.
And I suggest you read your own citations, like these from the pdf:
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Note that in this document the APA is implicitly saying (and explicitly saying elsewhere) that for those who do experience clinical gender dysphoria the underlying problem is the persecution and stigma caused by dumb bigots and that the gender dysphoria is a natural stress reaction to that persecution. So once again it's bible-babbling Christian extremists who are the real problem in society. Too bad there's no medical cure for superstition or ignorance.
So if someone thinks he’s Napoleon and a med doesn’t make him think otherwise, then he really is Napoleon and you address him as Your majesty the Emperor of France? You can’t be serious.
And your problem is that you can’t deal with the truth.
How many times do I need to explain this fact? Trans people don't think that they are another person or another species. They are merely the wrong gendered body for their gender identity.
Wouldn't that be more directly comparable to those who think an invisible sky fairy controls their life, or someone like David Horowitz who thought that a "demon" speaking through his neighbor's dog told him who he should kill next?
Too bad that not even meds for schizophrenia are able to prevent religious superstitions. It could be there isn't a cure for such delusions.
Nope. All I have done is repeat their own words. They didn't make the change because new medical science revealed it wasn't a disorder. They made the change because of the way people react to the word "disorder." That is a very dangerous precedent for the treatment of all mental illness, not just this issue. At minimum, it means we will be less motivated to respond in a way that actually improves people's lives because we'll be pretending everything is just fine when it's not. The psych community is whistling past the graveyard because of political correctness.
Quite the opposite, in fact. I would never suggest that these people lose access to treatment or benefits because of their disorder. I believe we need to be open and honest about so we can consider all possible options in pursuit of the best treatment or response.
No. They are not claiming that gender dysphoria is caused by the bigotry of other people. I don't even know how that would work. How do you stigmatize someone unless they first present as being different in some way? You're not making sense.
And by the way, wanting to treat a condition instead of pretending it's normal does not make one a dumb bigot.
No, they think they are something they are not. If male, they think they are female. But their chromosomes, and usually their biological morphology, say otherwise. It absolutely sucks that their brains are not in sync with that. It would be great if we could find effective methods to help them cope with reality.
I love how you assume that anytime someone disagrees with you, it must be because of religion. What arrogance!
What they’ve watered it down to is a politically infused clinical statement that being a loon isn’t a mental disorder that requires treatment if other people are stupid enough to enable the delusion by ignoring reality. However, the loons will only require treatment when the dumb bigots (aka sane people) drive them crazy by refusing to pretend that men are women and women are men. Conclusion: If the loon doesn’t want to see reality, then the solution is to bend all of society to accommodate the delusion so we can all be crazy. Damn!
Oh, yes it does when the "condition" is not a disease or disorder and the treatment has been proven to be ineffective and damaging and, just like exorcisms, rests solely on superstition.
Well it's obviously not science or facts or even the APA on which you're basing your opinions. What informs your views other than superstition and an inability to comprehend what the APA published?
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No, you gave your own twisted and erroneous interpretation of an APA statement you didn't comprehend, otherwise you would have directly quoted the text rather than using your own words to change the meaning.
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Actually that's exactly what they did as the APA's statement noted.
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Once again you seem to have a problem comprehending words because that's exactly what they're saying. Moreover the APA's position on that is supported by peer-reviewed studies which shows that suicide rates are normalized when transgender folks are raised in supportive homes and schools and when they receive appropriate medical intervention like puberty blockers and HRT.
So once again it seems that you know very little about this topic and are deliberately misrepresenting the APA's views to support your agenda.
Yet more evidence of your anti-trans views of the kind which the APA is working against. In other words you're part of the problem which causes some folks (both cisgender and transgender) to experience gender dysphoria.
Note that the APA makes no mention of " chromosomes " because they aren't relevant to the topic.
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There are very effective methods like the Dutch Protocol ........something which I'm pretty sure you'd oppose because you don't understand the topic and you're anti-trans. Fortunately the doctors who work in this area don't share your odious and ignorant views, and they don't let primitive Bronze-age superstitions trump science.
If you mean that I claimed such as being flat out incorrect, that's correct. I wasn't making such a claim.
Let's. The sequence doesn't begin with epistte's opinion. It begins with 1ofmany's.
1ofmany's point appears to be that at least these particular lesbians aren't confused as to what gender a person actually is. epistte seems to think that gender identity and sexual orientation makes some sort of difference. That everyone needs to take these "distinctions" in mind. That is only her opinion and what I was referring to.
As for the Ad Populum thing, that was a response to the apparent recognition on your part that we were dealing with opinion.
Since opinion is what we were talking about at this point, Ad Populum was used correctly.
Lastly, since the overall topic is the reaction of these lesbians to trans whatever, I spoke with that in mind. The topic is still not definitions of particular words.
Yes. That's what I'm saying. What you are trying to do is present the idea only a Doctor or something similar is qualified to identify male and female than the average individual, which is like telling me only a veterinarian can identify a common house cat.
Our bodies chromosomes are not always in alignment with their psychological gender identity, so a person's gender identity is noit the same as their DNA or chromosomes. You continue to ignore this fact because it doesn't support your conservtive opinions. The effective treatment is changing the body to match the person's gender identity that is a medical reality. The fact that you and other conservatives don't agree is irrelevant because it is well proven that your ignorance of human sexuality and psychology is vast.
You have yet to prove that you understand the difference between sexual orientation (what gender a person is attracted to) and gender identity (that is their psychological male or female sense of self).
Good thing that medical science ignores the views of the superstitious.
Your argument is a false analogy. Yes, only a psychiatrist or psychologist is qualified to diagnose this condition because of their training. You can I can both idenify a cat by extrenal appearance, but the outside appearance is not the same when there is a possible gender identity disorder. Trans' people know that their outside appearance is male or female, but they also know that their psychological gender identity is not in alignment with their biological gender. You still do not understand gender identity or you are choosing to ignore it because it doesn't align with your opinions.
When one quotes a single sentence from someone and comments on same, one does get the impression that the comment applies to that which was quoted.
What social rules are being bent for loony trans people? How many transgendered people have you come in contact with?
In that analogy it would be more like a veterinarian informing you that your cat is actually a Genet or that your puppy dog is actually a Coyote.
Gender identity (the subject matter), unlike clear physical characteristics like facial hair, genitalia, voice, size, etc. is not so easily determined. It is odd that some seem to be dismissing clinical psychology - equating the knowledge and expertise of professionals in this field to that of the non-professionals.
I'd like from Drakk to explain to everyone the detailed process of a potentially transgendered person's gender identity dysphoria is diagnosed by their appearance as a vet would identify a cat or a dog breed. This reply from him should be quite enlightening.
Science has never established that the two are different. That distinction comes psychology and psychology is not a science.
LOL , surprisingly here in smalltown wyoming my last encounter was this past Saturday night. for the past couple weeks a Trans woman has been coming in during karaoke, I had my suspicions ( actually knew , it was a man in drag) but I didn't care because it didn't affect me in the slightest.
went to use the head and was stopped by a friend I hadn't seen in over a year sitting with another friend, the lady walks by us and goes straight in the mens room, I must have made a quizzical look because one friend ( who is gay) said yes its a man , I was ok , well a newcomer to the bar , never seen him before walks in the mens room , I look at the one friend and ask since he works the bar , if we hear a loud crash and scuffle , what do WE do? he goes , I am headed out the door , I don't know about you.
Didn't hear anything , the lady comes out goes to her seat, the guy though , came out looking rather flustered , and with a vein popping looking like it was about to rupture. he had some choice words about the situation , being the smart ass that I am , I asked him how it had physically hurt him or affected him? not a word ,I then asked if he planned on asking for a date? then i said if the guy wasn't breaking any laws , wasn't putting the moves on him , and basically wasnt affecting his life , to drop it,surprised I didn't get my ass kicked , or covered in blood from a ruptured artery, the guy left , purple , red , flustered and muttering as the 3 of us sat there and laughed our asses off.
Too bad the psychology on which you base your “faith” isn’t medical science.
Your ignorance of the subject is absolutely astounding. If a person's biological gender and the same person's psychological gender identity were not different then they would not be transgendered.
Psychology is obviously a medical science, as is psychiatry, despite your proclamations. The fact that you don't know the difference between the two professions is just more proof of your ignorance of this subject. A psychologist has either a masters of science or Ph.D. in the subject and they concern themsleves with the person's feelings and emotions. A Psychiatrist is an MD that prescribes medication. There is also a neurologist that does tests on the brain and occasionally performs surgery when they are a neurosurgeon.
If psychology isn't a medical science then what it is? What is your post K-12 education level that permits you to make these declarations?
Ridiculous. No F’n body needs to be trained to tell the difference between men and women any more than they need to be trained to tell the difference between people and cats. People have been able to tell the difference between the two genders since mankind began because knowing the difference is basic to propagating the species. Even young children can tell the difference. Gender identity disorder is —wait for it — a “disorder.” The person is not actually in the wrong body; she just thinks she is.
If she is using the mens restroom then she is a transvestite and not transgendered. Transvestites dress for a sexual fetish, have a CIS gender identity and tend to be heterosexual in their gender role, unlike a transgendered person who has an incongruent gender identity and would never use the men's restoom.
Transvestites almost never seek hormones and would never want gender confirmation surgery.
Its good that her appearance doesn't bother you because to some men it is a threat to their masculinity.
That's why I only used the word "Trans" I have no idea what the situation was other than dressed as a female while being biologically male, and frankly it is none of my business how far it actually goes , it doesn't affect me , I simply see a person attempting to be happy with themselves , that I have always accepted . As for my comfort, I am comfortable with my being male , and the orientation I have so see no threats , I know who I am and am comfortable with it.
Watching you try to ignore or discount any evidence that doesn't support your conservative beliefs is hilarious.Your entire argument consists of the intellectual equivalent of jumping up and down screaming NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
Transgendered people before they start hormones tend to be quite normal in appearance except for some cross-dressing, hairstyles or makeup. Their chromosomes and DNA, plus their birth hormone levels tend to be normal for the biological gender, despite the fact that they have an incongruent psychological gender identity.
You cannot tell what a person's psychological gender identity is by their appearance due to the fact that it isn't a primary or secondary visual gender clue. It would be similarly impossible to tell that a person might be XXY or XYY just by their appearance. A DNA or chromosomal scan cannot diagnose a person as being CIS or transgendered because neither of those tests can detect a person's psychological sense of self.
But science has not established that biological and psychological gender are two different things. That comes from psychology and psychology is not a science. Obviously your skull is too thick for that to sink in right away but I’m patient.
Uh, no. Psychiatry is a legitimate medical discipline. Real science includes physics, chemistry, biology. Psychology, on the other hand, is a social science like political science and sociology. Getting a masters or Ph.D in a liberal arts field doesn’t make it a science. Even to suggest that it does is beyond ridiculous.
In order to be a science, it would have to be scientifically rigorous, have clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experimental conditions, reproducibility, and predictability and testability. Psychology doesn’t meet this test and there are articles that explain why. Read them if you like and believe what you will. But I needn’t go any farther than to simply note that you have never offered anything in support of your views on this subject other than conjecture/opinion because conjecture/opinion is all psychology really has to offer.
And as we know from cases like Nicole & Jonas Maines where one zygomatic twin is cisgender and the other transgender, such a genetic test would be meaningless anyway since gender identity appears to be controlled by prenatal hormones not genetics.
Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about you.
Of course their appearance and hormone levels are normal for their biological gender. That’s because the problem is mental.
Again, actual science has never established that psychological and physical gender are different. If a person thinks they’re different, then they suffer from dysphoria.
It's not really clear what you're whining about here since it's psychiatrists and endocrinologists who are involved in the treatment of transgender folks, particularly when it comes to the use of puberty blockers, HRT, etc.
Perhaps your completely irrational and uninformed views against trans folks are based on misunderstanding which academic disciplines are involved?
Yep. About par for your arguing style. Always creating a straw man.
Even by your own argument that psychiatry is a medical science you are wrong that gender identity does not exist. Will you now claim that psychiatrists are also wrong and that you know more than an MD? Maybe you can find time in your busy schedule to inform the APA of their mistake? Certainly, someone with your claimed knowledge of this subject has written a paper or lectured on this subject so I would like to read them. Please post a link.
Psychology isn't a liberal arts degree and more than engineering is,
What college degrees have you earned?
What strawman did I create? if you claim that a vet can identify a cat by their appearance, you were planning on diagnosing a transgendered person by their appearance. How is their psychological gender identity diagnosed by appearance alone?
Yes, it is. What does that have to do with what you quoted?
Sorry, but it's not. Remember, the question was, do I think I am as qualified as the medical people you mentioned. In my opinion, and in my view of reality, I can as easily tell who's male and who's female as a vet can distinguish between a cat and a dog. No special training needed. Unless, of course, they've undergone a physical alteration in order to simulate being the other sex.
Your point seems to be that what physical body one inhabits doesn't actually define their gender identity. Of course, I have the opposite view. The body one is born in determines one's sex, not how they feel. Further, there's no actual way to change it. One can have stuff done to one's body, but there's no actual sex reassignment. It's just a simulation.
Trying to determine who is transgendered by their outward appearance is laughably ignorant. You are judging them by their biological gender and not their psychological gender identity.
No F’n body needs to be trained to tell the difference between men and women any more than they need to be trained to tell the difference between people and cats.
Whatever you say, m'dear.
This is a consistent tactic when you don't like someone else's opinion. You arrogantly demand some kind of curriculum vitae or the other person's opinion is invalid. Of course you don't say anything about what the standard of qualification is or why and how you should be the person to sit in judgment of that. Finally, you don't offer your own qualifications for review by the community.
I invite you to knock it off.
The other person is going against the currently accepted medical facts, so if they know enough to proclaim that the current diagnosis and treatment is wrong then they need to have some sort of knowledge of the subject to support that claim. I took 2 psych courses in college because they were easy As to boost my GPA, compared to the engineering classes that were my major.
It would help a lot if you folks had some credible peer reviewed studies to support your anti-trans nonsense.
There are no medical facts supporting the idea that there is more than two sexes. The idea that gender and sex are even different things is something invented in the mid 20th century. It's not based on something real. It's all unproven psychological theory that flies in the face of what we know about reproduction in humans.
I hope you understand my point about requiring credentials of others, but never of yourself. Anyone here can get educated on any topic without getting a degree in it, and a degree is no guarantee of being right. I think if you want people to actually pay attention to your arguments, you should be willing to listen to others without requiring a résumé first.
Credible peer reviewed studies proving what? That the only two sexes are male and female and they are immutable? That's knowledge we have had for 100,000 years. Sorry, but if you want to change reproductive science, you're the one who needs to produce the studies, not me.
If you're male but your brain keeps telling you're female, you have a disorder. If you're a human and you think you're a horse, you have a disorder. If you have two legs, but think you only have one, you have a disorder. Any other conclusion flies in the face of common sense. Any sensible person - any compassionate person - would want to fully research how such a thing could happen and treat it in the least invasive way possible.
I haven't mentioned any treatment. The only treatments I see being employed are radical, dangerous surgery and an attempt to get the general public to share in the patient's delusion. If that's what you're talking about, I would agree those treatments are ineffective and damaging. The suicide rate for this population is the same both before and after surgery, and trying to normalize the delusion has only caused angst and confusion in the general population. Clearly more research is needed.
Your analogies are flawed. I was going to explain what's wrong with them, but I just caught myself from embarking on this waste of time.
I have studied the history of gender theory and I find it to be rooted in existential philosophy and quackery. Simon de Beauvoir, writing about 65 years ago made the claim that a boy could be raised to be a girl and vice versa. It's a cute idea, but there's nothing about it that has any connection to biological science. But it set off this idea that gender was some kind of construction of the culture. Certainly many of the roles we play and interests we have are learned, but if I'm a boy who likes to play with dolls and is into fashion, that doesn't make me a girl. You can be a woman who like sports and action movies, but that doesn't make you a man.
We also had the tragic example of the Reimer twins. One of the boys apparently lost his penis in a botched circumcision, so John Money had the bright idea of raising him as a girl. It worked until he was a teenager, then he announced he wanted to be a boy. Long story > short, both boys ended up committing suicide in their 20s. It's not a happy story, but somehow both of these weirdos gave people the idea that our sexual identity was something you could mess around with.
Stepping outside of philosophy, there is some scientific evidence that mens brains tend to be organized and function differently than womens' brains. They have differing amounts of gray and white matter, for example and it's arranged differently. Cognitive and emotional processes happen differently in the different types of brain tissue. None of this should surprise anyone, though I expect it might make some radical feminists mad who like to insist that there are no differences between men and women.
It turns out that some of the real serious trans cases have a more female type brain in a male body and vice versa. It's got to be pretty weird, but a man is still a man and a woman still a woman. This is determined by chromosomes, not the brain. My point here is that when someone gets surgery, they are changing the body into something it is not. If it helps them cope, fine, but statistically, the surgery does nothing to lower the suicide rate. And realistically, it only makes them appear to be the desired sex. Their sex still is what it was. In any event, surgery should not be the end of our attempts to fix what is a genuine problem. It seems to me it would be healthier and safer to either correct what's happening in the brain, or give people tools to cope with the problem.
I have seen many people try to claim they can be a different gender and then switch back, or that they can be something in between. That's delusional and contrary to biological science. Pretending the dysphoria is some kind of ordinary healthy variation in human development is also delusional. Generations from now, I expect our scientific descendants will look back in horror at the age where we butchered people suffering from dysphoria instead of giving them the healing they really need.
How wonderful for you.
Your last post to Skrekk was much better than those dumb analogies, good going.
That "disorder" is known as gender dysphoria.
Trans people don't think that they are another species or another person.
It is caused by a hormone problem at about the 12th week of gestation. The most successful treatment is changing the body to match the gender identity of the brain, with both hormones and surgery and psychotherapy for support in assisting the person transition with less stress. Do you have a better idea that has proven results?
Sex is an act of mating and reproduction. The proper term for the male or femaleness of the person is gender. The only possible 3rd gender would be intersexxed/androgynous. Transgendered people are not saying that there are more than 2 genders. Transgendered people are a situation where they were born with the gendered brain that is not in alignment with their body's physical gender.
Men and women are psychologically different because we process information differently and have different drives. Our gender differences are not merely physical based on our sex organs and they are not the result of nuturing.
What healing do you believe is better suited for transgendered than the currently prescribed treatment?
I agree with everything you said but that. Nurturing does happen but it is minute to the whole thing
Our female or male gender identities are not the result of nurturing by our parents. We are not a blank slate at birth with genders or personalities to be created by our parents. John Money believed that he could change a person's psychological gender identity by psychotherapy, but his idea went horrifically wrong and the patient ended up dying by suicide. Some insurance companies used to support a similar idea when they endorsed confirmation/reinforcement therapy for transgendered patients. Instead of helping the person transition the therapy would continually reinforce their birth gender, even to the point of giving the patient additional doses of estrogen or testosterone. That ended when they were sued for malpractice.
Gee! Ya think??? And why do you suppose that is??? If someone comes up to me who "psychologically" thinks they are Adolph Hitler, am I supposed to accommodate them or help them back to reality?
What is laughable is your attempt to make it seem as if I am talking about who's transgendered. I couldn't care less about "transgendered." The word to me is defined, "someone who wants to be the other sex" and that's it. It doesn't mean anything like "merely the wrong gendered body for their gender identity." Your body determines your sex, with the exception of rare medical conditions, and if one is confused about it, it's a mental disorder.
What's sad is the trend today by the "professionals" is to accommodate and encourage this delusion. Supposedly, the greatest fulfillment of such people is "sex reassignment surgery." Man! I can't think of anything more sad. Such surgery presents an illusion, but not the reality. A man made to look like a woman will still be a man. They will be missing everything necessary to actually be a woman. The genetics, the first period, the menstrual cramps, the plumbing necessary to produce a new life. All of it. The only thing they will have is appearance, which is probably all they wanted in the first place.
Maybe that sounds cruel and unsympathetic. Not what I'm going for. I don't despise people who want to be or think they are the opposite sex. I feel sorry for their condition. But I believe the truth is always better than a lie. What really pisses me off though, is people such as yourself demeaning people who think differently than you. You want to support "transgendered" be my guest. But don't demand that the rest of us have to go along with you.
Why do you always fall back on the false claim that trans people think that they are a different species or a different person instead of accepting the fact that they are just the wrong gendered psychological identity for the biological gender of their body?
How exactly do you plan to "help them back to reality?"
The discussion is about gender identity mismatch, so unless you want to stay on topic don't bother replying to me with another false anology. The biological gender of the body does not conclusively determine the psychological gender of the mind because if it did then transgendered people would not exist, but obviously transgendered people do exist. Transgendered people are not confused about their biological gender as you and others are trying to spin the discussion. They know what gender their body is but they also know that they are not that same physiological gender.
Trans people are not delusional about their mind-body gender mismatch. If it was simply a delusional disorder then medication for that condition would cure it but it does not.
why do you think that your opinions of this medical topic are objectively qualified as those of the medical community ? (sorry, i just noticed i didn't hit the "reply" button first, that is my bad and i apologize, this is in response to #6.1.26)
Your problem is you are trying to hold epistte to some sort of consistency on her logic. I'm not trying to be a smartass or say something demeaning, but it's my opinion that logic to epistte is whatever confirms her beliefs, not something that informs them.
It is obvious that you are the one who doesn't know what logic is because you have just described a confirmation bias.
Where have I used a confirmation bias, unless all of psychology is a confirmation bias and only you see the faulty thinking? Shrekk and I, among others, are quoting peer-reviewed medical sources to support our statements. You are posting your unsupported opinions and claiming that Shreek and I are wrong, despite the facts to the contrary.
Locking. I won't be able to look at this much over the next few days.