Betsy DeVos’s summer home deserves a special place in McMansion Hell

Via:  bob-nelson  •  3 months ago  •  187 comments

Betsy DeVos’s summer home deserves a special place in McMansion Hell

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


BM_05785835.01.jpg

Two weeks ago, somebody untied Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos’s $40 million yacht from its mooring. It got me thinking about another opulent display of wealth owned by DeVos: her 22,000-square-foot nautical-themed summer mansion, located in Holland, Michigan. Just a few more years of climate change and it’ll be floating too.

My mission for the past three years as the creator of the architectural humor blog McMansion Hell has been to unpack what makes mansions like DeVos’s so terrible, from both an architectural and social standpoint. It’s bad enough that we have a president who oversaw a massive redistribution of wealth toward the already wealthy through tax breaks. What’s worse is that obscenely wealthy people like him waste all their money building pseudo-castles and other eclectic tragedies, all while wagging their finger at the rest of us telling us to eat cake.

Trump official and fellow rich person DeVos just rolled back Obama administration loan forgiveness rules for students defrauded by for-profit colleges. It’s unsurprising that she doesn’t want to forgive the student loan debts of those defrauded by for-profit colleges considering that she got her net worth of more than $1 billion from her husband’s company, the multilevel marketing giant Amway, which is often described as a cult. Meanwhile, her brother Erik Prince owns the Blackwater firm, which essentially sells mercenaries. As we can see, we are not dealing with nice people.

As someone who owes tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, getting paid to make fun of DeVos’s tacky seaside decor is one of few ways to both feed myself and make myself feel better. With that, I’d like to dedicate this essay to all of the public school teachers who taught me how to write.

betsy_1[1].png

Betsy’s house is, in general, a mess. The home attempts to play on the historical American school of architecture known as the shingle style. This style, often seen by historians as a combination of the emerging Arts and Crafts movement and 19th-century eclecticism, is known for its extensive use of shingles as a building material and its multi-massed (massing is a fancy word for a building’s three-dimensional forms) architectural complexity. Betsy likely went with this style because it is very popular in New England and in coastal enclaves of the rich and famous in general.

betsy_2[1].png

Even though Betsy is riffing on the shingle style, there is a difference between architectural complexity and a mess, just as there is a difference between a masterful use of vocabulary and replacing every word in a sentence with the longest synonym you can find in the thesaurus.

Betsy’s house looks like a compound of multiple unfinished parts, and nothing about its hulking facade really gels. This is partially because it has no fewer than 13 window styles — yes, I counted them — and because each of the wings of the house tries (perhaps intentionally) to be very visually different from the next.

3_exterior_3[1].png

For example, why is there a massive turret tacked on as if they couldn’t quite commit to a separate lighthouse? The house’s roofline somehow includes three separate roof types (clipped gable, dutch gable, and hipped)? Why are some columns stone and others wood? Why do none of the doors seem to be the front door? (Is there even a front door?) It’s a classic case of too many cooks in the kitchen, and none of those cooks are good at their job.

I don’t know how much this house cost, but according to the topical website PriceyPads.com, the house has three bedrooms and 10 bathrooms, three kitchens, eight dishwashers, 13 porches, and an elevator. Something about that ratio of bedrooms to dishwashers seems off to me, but what would I, a mere wretch, too dumb and poor to avoid being exploited by the predatory cost of higher education, know?

7_interior_31.png

While the repairs are underway on one of her 10 boats, maybe poor Betsy can spare some of her precious time (otherwise spent being the villain of a Charles Dickens novel) reading essays like M.H. Miller’s in The Baffler, which describes in detail the toll student loan debt repayment takes on working families. Or she could take a gander at a recent Time article about how an entire generation of people have negative wealth.

5_interior_11.png

In America, the rich get richer, and the poor have to beg the federal government to forgive the debts they owe to predatory for-profit colleges run by the rich who keep on getting richer. What do the rich do with all their money? Build horrific monstrosities with eight dishwashers and dismantle the public school system.

Architecture is never a vacuum. This house sucks, but like all buildings, it is a reflection of both the people and the broader culture that make building it both possible and desirable. Those, too, irrefutably suck.

Kate Wagner is the creator of the viral blog McMansion Hell, a freelance design writer, and contributor at Curbed. Kate is $42,000 in student loan debt for her MA in architectural acoustics from Johns Hopkins University.

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Bob Nelson
1  seeder  Bob Nelson    3 months ago

The people who rule us.....

 
 
Texan1211
1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Bob Nelson @1    3 months ago

DeVos is your ruler?

LMAO!

 
 
cjcold
1.1.1  cjcold  replied to  Texan1211 @1.1    3 months ago

DeVos is supposed to be watching out for the educational needs of our children and grandchildren. She never went to a public school and obviously has no cares for the public school system other than pushing in Koch approved textbooks.

 
 
Texan1211
1.1.2  Texan1211  replied to  cjcold @1.1.1    3 months ago

And what exactly has that to do with an article about some people hating her home?

 
 
Dean Moriarty
2  Dean Moriarty    3 months ago

Different strokes for different folks. Although I prefer contemporary architecture I find that to be a great looking home. I'm not too crazy about the beige chairs the fabric is wrinkled but other than that it looks good to me. 

 
 
Skrekk
2.1  Skrekk  replied to  Dean Moriarty @2    3 months ago

I'm just glad to see that the oligarchs really are lizard people.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Dean Moriarty @2    3 months ago

They could be upholstered in glove leather - it would be expensive enough to qualify.

 
 
It Is ME
3  It Is ME    3 months ago

NICE HOUSE ! thumbs up

This house withstood Blows …..Literally !

Hillary House.jpg

 
 
Ender
3.1  Ender  replied to  It Is ME @3    3 months ago

That's not the Whitehouse.

 
 
It Is ME
3.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Ender @3.1    2 months ago

Yes it is. They still run the Democrat show....don't they ?

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
5  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη    3 months ago

Bob you do realize there are wealthy liberals too.  What is the point? Do you think it should be a crime to be wealthy?

Do you have money? If so is your money evil too?

 
 
Bob Nelson
5.1  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @5    3 months ago

What are you talking about?

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
5.1.1  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  Bob Nelson @5.1    3 months ago

Did you read the article? It's a tantrum about wealth. Is it immoral to accumulate wealth or be wealthy?

 
 
Spikegary
5.1.2  Spikegary  replied to  Bob Nelson @5.1    3 months ago

This article is nothing more than 'I'm jealous so they must be doing something wrong'.

Sad to see that one considers this to be 'Trending'.

 
 
Bob Nelson
5.1.3  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @5.1.1    3 months ago

So... vent your spleen at the author...

I'm just the seeder. I seeded it because I found it amusing.

If you want to find some deeper, super-serious societal interpretation... Go for it!   Thumbs Up 2

 
 
Tessylo
5.1.4  Tessylo  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @5.1.1    3 months ago

I think it's kind of tongue in cheek.  Not meant to be taken so seriously.

Sure I think most of us would love to have that kind of money.  But Good Lord if that's her summer house . . . . I'm speechless.  What does her regular house look like?  

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
5.1.5  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  Bob Nelson @5.1.3    3 months ago

There really isn't a deeper meaning. I agree, I find it amusing too. 

 
 
epistte
5.1.6  epistte  replied to  Tessylo @5.1.4    3 months ago

This was their home for a long time. It was in east Grand Rapids, IIRC. 

https://goo.gl/images/gQ6Z7f
 
 
Tessylo
5.1.7  Tessylo  replied to  epistte @5.1.6    2 months ago

I couldn't get the image to come up.  

 
 
Bob Nelson
5.1.8  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Tessylo @5.1.7    2 months ago

devoshousebeforejpgdd594a6a306a9327_large.jpg

 
 
Tessylo
5.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Bob Nelson @5.1.8    2 months ago

Thanks, a bit more understanted than the McMansion or I think episette called it a starter castle?  laughing dude

 
 
epistte
5.2  epistte  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @5    3 months ago

The DeVos family also owns the automotive supplier Johnson Controls.  They have the controlling interest in both Hope and Calvin college. 

 
 
JohnRussell
6  JohnRussell    3 months ago

I looked up the town of Holland, expecting it to be on Lake Michigan, but it is not, it is a little inland on a much smaller lake. I also noticed that while the town is otherwise almost all white, befitting the elite status of some of the residents perhaps, the hispanic population is 22 %,  indicating that maybe there is a lot of gardening and landscaping associated with all the big houses. 

Just staying in line with the critique of her mansion, it is too visually busy. 

betsy_1[1].png

It looks like there are 5 or 6 architectural styles on the third floor alone. 

 
 
Bob Nelson
6.1  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  JohnRussell @6    3 months ago
... indicating that maybe there is a lot of gardening and landscaping associated with all the big houses.

Oh!

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
6.1.1  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  Bob Nelson @6.1    3 months ago

She's a job creator. She likely employs full time gardeners.

 
 
Bob Nelson
6.1.2  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @6.1.1    3 months ago

A sneak-peak at America's future: a zillionaire and lots of groundskeepers...

 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Bob Nelson @6.1.2    3 months ago

She has 1000 million dollars. 

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
6.1.4  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    3 months ago

I billion

 
 
It Is ME
6.1.5  It Is ME  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.3    3 months ago

So !

It's bad because the Congress and the Senate are ONLY Millionaires now ?

Funny....most didn't know what "Million" was until they were elected....according to them anyway.

 
 
JohnRussell
6.1.6  JohnRussell  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @6.1.4    3 months ago

Is that what that is? 

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
6.1.7  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  JohnRussell @6.1.6    3 months ago

Yes, I just did the conversion on my abacus! 

 
 
Skrekk
6.1.8  Skrekk  replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @6.1.1    3 months ago
She's a job creator. She likely employs full time gardeners.

I wonder if she refuses to pay her workers like Trump tends to do?

 
 
Tessylo
6.1.9  Tessylo  replied to  Skrekk @6.1.8    2 months ago

She probably employs illegals at less than minimum wage.  

 
 
Texan1211
6.1.10  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @6.1.8    2 months ago

Why don't you ask her workers?

 
 
It Is ME
6.2  It Is ME  replied to  JohnRussell @6    3 months ago
It looks like there are 5 or 6 architectural styles on the third floor alone.

Architectural Diversity. winking

 
 
XDm9mm
6.2.1  XDm9mm  replied to  It Is ME @6.2    3 months ago

Or is that architectural appropriation?

 
 
It Is ME
6.2.2  It Is ME  replied to  XDm9mm @6.2.1    2 months ago

peace

 
 
Paula Bartholomew
7  Paula Bartholomew    3 months ago

I can't stand her, but I do like the exterior stone work of the house.

 
 
JBB
8  JBB    3 months ago

There is Poor, Middle Class, Well Off, Rich and then there is Go To Hell Rich. DeVos is one of the latter few...

 
 
Texan1211
8.1  Texan1211  replied to  JBB @8    2 months ago

"Go to hell rich"

Is that when the jealous people get together and tell someone to go to hell because that person has more than they do?

 
 
devangelical
9  devangelical    3 months ago

From a contractor's perspective, this house is probably unrecognizable from the original blueprint with a pile of costly change orders added along the way. I'm also surprised all the trim work isn't painted metallic gold on this thumper palace.

 
 
Trout Giggles
9.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @9    3 months ago
this house is probably unrecognizable from the original blueprint with a pile of costly change orders added along the way

That's what I think. She kept adding stuff to the house while it was being built. "OO! I want a widow's walk!" For what reason, only she knows.

I don't begrudge people and their wealth. At least people were employed while the house was built. I'm sure she has an army of maids, cooks, and gardeners to tend to the house. But only 3 bedrooms? 22,000 feet and only 3 bedrooms. I wonder if any of the living rooms have pull out couches?

 
 
Tessylo
9.1.1  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @9.1    2 months ago
'I wonder if any of the living rooms have pull out couches?'

Hush yo mouth!  A pull out couch in a Devos mansion?

I agree though.  I don't begrudge anyone their wealth.  

 
 
Trout Giggles
9.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.1    2 months ago

Air mattresses?

 
 
devangelical
9.1.3  devangelical  replied to  Trout Giggles @9.1    2 months ago

Lots of beds in those bedrooms for thumper family reunions.

 
 
Texan1211
9.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @9.1.3    2 months ago

You have a problem with people having family reunions now?

What's next, or does it really matter, just as long as you can complain about it?

 
 
Trout Giggles
9.1.5  Trout Giggles  replied to  devangelical @9.1.3    2 months ago

Do you think they have to share?

 
 
Tessylo
9.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  Trout Giggles @9.1.2    2 months ago

'Air mattresses?'

Heavens to Betsy!  No way!

 
 
Trout Giggles
9.1.7  Trout Giggles  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.6    2 months ago

Giggle

 
 
It Is ME
9.1.8  It Is ME  replied to  Tessylo @9.1.1    2 months ago
I don't begrudge anyone their wealth. 

chuckle

 
 
epistte
9.2  epistte  replied to  devangelical @9    3 months ago

I refer to these hideous structures as starter castles and McMansions.

The roof is a nightmare of ice dams and potential leaks in a area of lake effect snow as western Michigan. 

 
 
Texan1211
9.3  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @9    3 months ago

And?

 
 
devangelical
9.3.1  devangelical  replied to  Texan1211 @9.3    3 months ago

derp?

 
 
Texan1211
9.3.2  Texan1211  replied to  devangelical @9.3.1    3 months ago

Not your house, not any of your concern or business.

 
 
epistte
9.3.3  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @9.3.2    3 months ago
Not your house, not any of your concern or business.

Why do you feel the need to come to her defense because someone noticed their questionable architectural taste?

 
 
Texan1211
9.3.4  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @9.3.3    3 months ago

Not defending anything. 

Your personal opinion on her house isn't noteworthy.

it is her house, her choices in architecture.

 
 
MUVA
9.3.5  MUVA  replied to  epistte @9.3.3    3 months ago

Can you imagine the flashing this house would take? 

 
 
epistte
9.3.6  epistte  replied to  MUVA @9.3.5    3 months ago

I don't even want to think about it. Give those many roofline changes I'd cover about 1/3 of it in ice dam membrane just to be safe in that environment.  I can't tell for sure but it looks like a cedar shake roof. That would be hellish to lay down.

Those eyebrow windows and the turret are a GC's nightmare.

 
 
Spikegary
9.3.7  Spikegary  replied to  epistte @9.3.3    2 months ago

Why do you think it's okay for others to verbally attack her because she has money?  Looking at many of the comments here, they smack of jealousy.

 
 
epistte
9.3.8  epistte  replied to  Spikegary @9.3.7    2 months ago
Why do you think it's okay for others to verbally attack her because she has money?  Looking at many of the comments here, they smack of jealousy.

It's not her money people are attacking. It is her bad architectural taste that is the subject of criticism. The DeVos family money just amplifies her bad taste.

I have my name on a few starter castles but I just drew what the client wanted.  

 
 
XDm9mm
10  XDm9mm    3 months ago

What?

No comments about this tiny house owned by a darling of the left, none other than Bill Gates?

Image result for gates mansion

 
 
epistte
10.1  epistte  replied to  XDm9mm @10    3 months ago

Since when is Gates the darling of the left? Microsoft hasn't had a good idea since XP2. 

 
 
XDm9mm
10.1.1  XDm9mm  replied to  epistte @10.1    3 months ago

What does his software have to do with it?

 
 
epistte
10.1.2  epistte  replied to  XDm9mm @10.1.1    3 months ago
What does his software have to do with it?

That is where Microsoft made his money. He has a virtual monopoly on people who don't want to be Apple drones or who don't want to bother with Linux.  

 
 
Dean Moriarty
10.2  Dean Moriarty  replied to  XDm9mm @10    3 months ago

I like it. That's not too shabby. 

 
 
XDm9mm
10.2.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.2    3 months ago

Waaayyyy back when Gates only had about 30 billion, he fought the tax assessment on their home claiming it was grossly over valued.

It probably cost them as much fighting the taxes as it would have to fight the county.

 
 
Split Personality
10.2.2  Split Personality  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.2    3 months ago

Much more attractive than the subject of the article.

Architecturally it is consistent throughout and much more appealing the the DeVoss "summer house", which seems to be advertising how much could be spent on every possible

style crammed into one building.

 
 
Trout Giggles
10.2.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @10.2.2    2 months ago

I like the landscaping

 
 
Tessylo
10.3  Tessylo  replied to  XDm9mm @10    3 months ago

Not everyone feels the need to rub everyones' face in it that they're rich like this rich bitch DeVos.  And what does Bill Gates have to do with this anyway.  The Gates are philanthropists. How about DeVos?  How has she helped anyone with her vast wealth?

 
 
XDm9mm
10.3.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Tessylo @10.3    3 months ago

Google is your friend.   If you want to know how many millions they donate....   go look.

 
 
Dean Moriarty
10.3.2  Dean Moriarty  replied to  Tessylo @10.3    3 months ago

They are listed as one of the worlds most philanthropic families. 

https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2015/10/13b_in_donations_puts_devos_fa.html

 
 
XDm9mm
10.3.3  XDm9mm  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.3.2    3 months ago

Damn.....   you should have let her struggle for a little while.

 
 
Texan1211
10.3.4  Texan1211  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.3.2    3 months ago

Got real quiet real quick, didn't it?

 
 
Tessylo
10.3.5  Tessylo  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.3.2    3 months ago

In that citation it also mentions that they've given a lot of money to 'consevative' causes including school vouchers and anti-gay causes.  

So you proved me wrong.  No big whoop.  

 
 
Texan1211
10.3.6  Texan1211  replied to  Dean Moriarty @10.3.2    3 months ago

Now the bitch will be that it isn't enough or to the "wrong" causes!

predictable and useless!

 
 
Skrekk
10.3.7  Skrekk  replied to  Texan1211 @10.3.6    3 months ago
Now the bitch will be that it isn't enough or to the "wrong" causes!

Opposing civil rights would indeed be the wrong cause, much like the millions which Dan Cathy has donated to hate groups.    Very typical of rich Christian extremists too.

 
 
Tessylo
10.3.8  Tessylo  replied to  Skrekk @10.3.7    2 months ago

So predictable and useless 'those' conservatives aren't they, such as rich bitch DeVos and Cathy?

 
 
Spikegary
10.3.9  Spikegary  replied to  Skrekk @10.3.7    2 months ago

So, now you also feel you have the right to dictate how people should donate their own money also.

Gotcha. 

 
 
Texan1211
10.3.10  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @10.3.7    2 months ago

Gee, then you better donate all your money to those worthy causes!

What she donates to is none of your business!

 
 
Texan1211
10.3.11  Texan1211  replied to  Spikegary @10.3.9    2 months ago

Well, of course they think they have the right to tell anyone with real money what they are supposed to do with it. Don't you know by now they think they know best for EVERYONE, no matter the topic?

 
 
Texan1211
10.3.12  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @10.3.7    2 months ago

You donate all the money you want to whoever you want, and they have the same right as you.

Deal with it.

 
 
Ender
11  Ender    3 months ago

Yikes. To me it is a monstrosity. In a way it reminds me of the Winchester house. Just kept adding on.

Then again some would not like my style. I would rather have something like this.

ModernMansiononSunsetPlazaDrive07.jpg

 
 
XDm9mm
11.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Ender @11    3 months ago

If it wasn't for the palm trees, it would look like some of the houses in "The Dominion" here in the San Antonio area....

Then again, it might be a cartel drug lords home in Mexico.

 
 
Ender
11.1.1  Ender  replied to  XDm9mm @11.1    3 months ago

I think it is in LA.

 
 
epistte
11.1.2  epistte  replied to  Ender @11.1.1    3 months ago

It's in LA.

I've seen it before in an architecture magazine. 

 
 
Trout Giggles
11.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Ender @11    2 months ago

I like the lines of this house

 
 
Tacos!
12  Tacos!    3 months ago

Envy can be an ugly emotion, especially when taken to extremes as we see here.

 
 
epistte
12.1  epistte  replied to  Tacos! @12    3 months ago
Envy can be an ugly emotion, especially when taken to extremes as we see here.

I'm not envious of ugly houses or people with no sense of morality. 

If bad taste was flammable you couldn't smoke in that house.

 
 
Texan1211
12.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @12.1    3 months ago

Wow.

There are millions of homes in America I wouldn't want to live in or even step foot in.

This one only appears to be special because some don't like the owner.

 
 
epistte
12.1.2  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.1    3 months ago
Wow.

There are millions of homes in America I wouldn't want to live in or even step foot in.

This one only appears to be special because some don't like the owner.

This house is the architectural equivalent of dogs playing poker on black velvet, but it's in a solid gold frame. 

 
 
Texan1211
12.1.3  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @12.1.2    3 months ago

Your opinion, her house.

It doesn't matter if YOU like it or not.

 
 
epistte
12.1.4  epistte  replied to  Texan1211 @12.1.3    3 months ago
Your opinion, her house. It doesn't matter if YOU like it or not.

Did you forget that this is a discussion forum? That means we give our opinions on various topics, even when you don't agree. 

 
 
Texan1211
12.1.5  Texan1211  replied to  epistte @12.1.4    3 months ago

Gee, really?

 
 
Tessylo
12.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  epistte @12.1.2    2 months ago
This house is the architectural equivalent of dogs playing poker on black velvet, but it's in a solid gold frame. 

laughing dude

 
 
Tessylo
13  Tessylo    3 months ago

Sure I would love to be rich also but the filthy rich bitch didn't earn a penny of it.  Her husband did.  

 
 
Eagle Averro
13.1  Eagle Averro  replied to  Tessylo @13    3 months ago
Her husband did

E.A  So Misogynism POPS out!!

 
 
Texan1211
13.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Eagle Averro @13.1    2 months ago

Rich conservative women seem to scare the bejabbers out of some!

 
 
Eagle Averro
13.1.2  Eagle Averro  replied to  Texan1211 @13.1.1    2 months ago
women seem to scare the bejabbers out of some

Its is only a logical Scientific fact that some, indeed are terrified with the Natural Gender!!

Font Added by E.A 

 
 
Tessylo
13.1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Eagle Averro @13.1.2    2 months ago

What's to be frightened of about freaky fundamentalist rich bitches like DeVos other than her wanting to advance god's kingdom in the school system?

I have no idea though what the fuck you're talking about otherwise EA

 
 
Texan1211
13.1.4  Texan1211  replied to  Eagle Averro @13.1.2    2 months ago

Now you are simply confusing some.

 
 
epistte
13.1.5  epistte  replied to  Eagle Averro @13.1.2    2 months ago
Its is only a logical Scientific fact that some, indeed are terrified with the Natural Gender!!

What natural gender are people terrified of?

 
 
Tessylo
13.1.6  Tessylo  replied to  epistte @13.1.5    2 months ago

Yeah, what's the 'natural' gender and what is there to be terrified with?????  Does anyone have a clue what EA is babbling about?

 
 
epistte
13.1.7  epistte  replied to  Tessylo @13.1.6    2 months ago
Yeah, what's the 'natural' gender and what is there to be terrified with?????  Does anyone have a clue what EA is babbling about?

( Comment withheld because almost anything that I would say would be purple inked. )

 
 
Eagle Averro
13.1.8  Eagle Averro  replied to  Texan1211 @13.1.4    2 months ago
Now you are simply confusing some.

E.A  LOLParty

 I need you to explain how the " some " can be anything else if they can not figure out their own Arse, they want to tell others about …..

 
 
epistte
13.1.9  epistte  replied to  Eagle Averro @13.1.8    2 months ago
I need you to explain how the " some " can be anything else if they can not figure out their own Arse, they want to tell others about …..

Can someone please translate this to a standard form of the English language? Thanks. 

 
 
MUVA
13.2  MUVA  replied to  Tessylo @13    3 months ago

You can become rich it's really not that hard.

 
 
Skrekk
13.2.1  Skrekk  replied to  MUVA @13.2    3 months ago
You can become rich it's really not that hard.

The DeVos family earned their wealth the old fashioned way by arms dealing and by cheating everyone further down the pyramid in their various scams.

 
 
MUVA
13.2.2  MUVA  replied to  Skrekk @13.2.1    3 months ago

See I told you so I wasted time working 80 hour a week saving every penny  going with out vacations  now 40 years later I can basically retier when ever I want or at least when my wife says it is okay. 

 
 
Tessylo
13.2.3  Tessylo  replied to  Skrekk @13.2.1    2 months ago

And her brother, Prince, is a killer for hire. 

 
 
Texan1211
13.2.4  Texan1211  replied to  Skrekk @13.2.1    2 months ago

You sound jealous.

 
 
epistte
13.2.5  epistte  replied to  MUVA @13.2.2    2 months ago
See I told you so I wasted time working 80 hour a week saving every penny  going with out vacations  now 40 years later I can basically retier when ever I want or at least when my wife says it is okay. 

Buy a 72' Oyster or a 67' Fontaine Pajot and sail around the world if you want to. I doubt that you have the money for a 200' Feadship, IMVHO.

 
 
MUVA
13.3  MUVA  replied to  Tessylo @13    3 months ago

Like John Kerry got his money from his wife wait she got it for a republican like Arianna Huffington none of them earned a penny of it.

 
 
Tessylo
13.3.1  Tessylo  replied to  MUVA @13.3    2 months ago

What's John Kerry got to do with this?  He isn't President or the Head of Education like the rich bitch Devos is he?

 
 
Tessylo
13.3.2  Tessylo  replied to  MUVA @13.3    2 months ago

I thought he got such a raw deal I will only buy Heinz catsup now and now they have mayonnaise too, I  will be buying some tonight when I go to Giant to do my grocery shopping.  

 
 
pat wilson
13.3.3  pat wilson  replied to  Tessylo @13.3.2    2 months ago

Make your own. Easy and much better.

 
 
Texan1211
14  Texan1211    3 months ago

Some whining people can't stand the fact that she has money and they don't.

Simple, easy-to-see jealousy.

 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
14.1  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Texan1211 @14    3 months ago
Some whining people can't stand the fact that she has money and they don't.

Sugar, I believe you are placing way too much importance on the meaning behind the article and the comments here.  But never fear; your cause isn't a lost one.  I'm certain that Ms. DeVos will be eternally grateful for your gallant defense of her opulent lifestyle.    

As for myself, I'm going to spend the next week kicking my own ass for not marrying that Amway executive years ago.

By the way, from one Texan to another:  Bless your heart.

 
 
Texan1211
14.1.1  Texan1211  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @14.1    3 months ago

Aw, honey, you're too sweet.

I don't feel I am defending her because I don't think she needs defending for having a nice home. Or two. Or six.

And you should have snagged that husband when you had the chance!

 
 
Spikegary
14.1.2  Spikegary  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @14.1    2 months ago
  I'm certain that Ms. DeVos will be eternally grateful for your gallant defense of her opulent lifestyle.

Much as she will give a crap about the envious little minds here that spend their time whining about her wealth.

 
 
Jasper2529
14.2  Jasper2529  replied to  Texan1211 @14    2 months ago
Some whining people can't stand the fact that she has money and they don't. Simple, easy-to-see jealousy.

The financial and class envy some people hold against others is very palpable. 

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
14.3  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Texan1211 @14    2 months ago
Some whining people can't stand the fact that she has money and they don't.

I really don't give a flying fuck if she has money or, not. She isn't the right person for the job she was given by Trump. I just never understood why someone needed a home with more than the number of bedrooms needed or, space needed for one family. To live in a home that requires servants to keep it up is way more home than anyone needs and, then to own more than one of them that size? Really?

 
 
Texan1211
14.3.1  Texan1211  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @14.3    2 months ago
None of your business if she has one, two, or 16 homes, or what they look like, how much they cost, and what or who she employs.

It's every member's right to comment on the subject.

If you do not feel that is fair or appropriate, perhaps you can contact management to set up something more in line with your own opinions.............(SP)

 
 
Tessylo
14.3.2  Tessylo  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @14.3    2 months ago

applauseapplauseapplause

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15  Buzz of the Orient    3 months ago

If it didn't make we want to pee all the time, I'd rather live here:

Fallingwater-dr-2.jpg

 
 
MUVA
15.1  MUVA  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15    3 months ago

Falling waters Frank Loyd Wright?

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  MUVA @15.1    3 months ago

Yes, one of the most iconic homes in America.

 
 
MUVA
15.1.2  MUVA  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15.1.1    3 months ago

We have one of his homes in VA beach it sold for around 2 million dollars.About a month ago I took my son and a friend on a boat ride saw the house but did realize it was one of his till my wife told me he had designed it.

 
 
Trout Giggles
15.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15.1.1    2 months ago

I've always wanted to visit that house. I understand that the creek runs thru the house

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.1.3    2 months ago

I don't know, but I would think that the creek runs UNDER it, with supports built on each side of the creek.

I was thinking that if there were no environmental rules, you would not need a flushing toilet, just a hole in the lower level floor.  LOL

 
 
epistte
15.2  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15    3 months ago

I took my daughter to see this house when she was considering an architecture major. It's a small house that is not much more than a cabin, despite the dramatic site.

Wright was an architectural genius but his civil engineering skills were questionable.   They had to restructure the concrete decks or the entire house would have collapsed into the stream about 10 years ago.   They were supported by steel cribbing when we visited and we were told not to walk more than a few feet from the house because of the danger of cracks and even collapse.

 
 
Split Personality
15.2.1  Split Personality  replied to  epistte @15.2    3 months ago

It is and has been restricted due to the water damage.

There is a similar one near to where I used to live in PA.

Very similar, no stream running through it.

Restricted historic deed, asking 4 times the average price for square footage, no garage, can't add one.

What's the point?

 
 
epistte
15.2.2  epistte  replied to  Split Personality @15.2.1    3 months ago

Fallingwater has now been fixed because the civil engineer who oversaw the project died recently.  You can see the new reinforcements under the main patio. 

https://failures.wikispaces.com/Fallingwater

Wright was told that there was a structural problem during construction, but he told the construction crews to Shut up and just follow the prints! The decks started sagging soon after construction.

 
 
epistte
15.2.3  epistte  replied to  Split Personality @15.2.1    3 months ago
Restricted historic deed, asking 4 times the average price for square footage, no garage, can't add one. What's the point?

I guess its about the view and the because it's unique.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15.2.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @15.2.3    3 months ago

I would be happy renovating this old grist mill into a viable home - if it's iconic it's only because the great wildlife photographer Thomas Mangelsen took the photo of it.

3250wm_1.jpg

 
 
epistte
15.2.5  epistte  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15.2.4    3 months ago

I love the vistas of these sites but the pragmatist in me reminds me that streams occasionally flood, and that house would be SOL in that situation.

 
 
pat wilson
15.2.6  pat wilson  replied to  Split Personality @15.2.1    3 months ago

It's art on a large scale.

 
 
Split Personality
15.2.7  Split Personality  replied to  pat wilson @15.2.6    3 months ago

I can understand that

but having been a guest, I would never buy it even for fair market value,

just not my cup of tea, i suppose.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15.2.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  epistte @15.2.5    2 months ago

If you mean the old grist mill, it's probably been there for a century and hasn't floated down the stream yet.  However, it's just a dream anyway.

 
 
Trout Giggles
15.2.9  Trout Giggles  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15.2.8    2 months ago

Where is this grist mill?

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
15.2.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Trout Giggles @15.2.9    2 months ago

West Virginia

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
15.2.11  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15.2.4    2 months ago

That's a nice one.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
15.3  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @15    2 months ago
If it didn't make we want to pee all the time,

Isn't that what the balcony is for, to pee over?

 
 
epistte
16  epistte    3 months ago
Restricted historic deed, asking 4 times the average price for square footage, no garage, can't add one. What's the point?

I guess it is about the view and the because it's unique.

 
 
epistte
16.1  epistte  replied to  epistte @16    3 months ago

Please delete the bubblegum. 

 
 
Kavika
17  Kavika     3 months ago

Frank Lloyd Wright home, Taliesin West, Scottsdale AZ.

members-only-travel-program-scottsdale-0

 
 
Kavika
17.1  Kavika   replied to  Kavika @17    3 months ago

The Biltmore Hotel in Phoenix AZ...One of the great hotels of the world. 

Frank Lloyd Wright is usually given credit as the architect but was actually only a consultant for four months on the project. The actual architect was Albert Chase McArthur. 

I love Wright designs.

  Biltmore-Hotel-Phoenix-Arizona.jpg

 
 
epistte
17.2  epistte  replied to  Kavika @17    3 months ago

I've always liked that. I want to see Taliesin in Wisconsin, and the Johnson Wax building with the mushroom room.

https://www.taliesinpreservation.org/
 
 
Kavika
17.2.1  Kavika   replied to  epistte @17.2    3 months ago

I haven't seen Taliesin in WI but it looks stunning....Great how the preservation of the building is an on going project...Well worth preserving. 

I looked up the Johnson Wax Building with the mushroom room. Now that is an interesting looking room.

 
 
Skrekk
17.2.2  Skrekk  replied to  Kavika @17.2.1    3 months ago

Taliesin is essentially my back yard.

 
 
Bob Nelson
18  seeder  Bob Nelson    2 months ago

Taliesin West:

DSC04528.jpg

DSC04522.jpg

DSC04523.jpg

DSC04527.jpg

DSC04525.jpgDSC04524.jpg

DSC04530.jpg

DSC04531.jpg

DSC04529.jpg

DSC04532.jpg

 
 
Trout Giggles
18.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Bob Nelson @18    2 months ago

I'm not sure how I feel about this house. The stonework (if you want to call it that) looks more like concrete with some rocks thrown in for texture. We have a retaining wall like that and it's coming out as soon as we can do it.

The parabalas (?) are interesting, but I never cared for them unless they are supporting a vine.

The pool looks inviting....

 
 
Bob Nelson
18.1.1  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1    2 months ago

FLW wanted to be close to Nature, so he put big rocks in the concrete walls. The rocks weren't just tossed in, though. They were arranged with a flat surface tangent to the wall surface, to maximize rock appearance, while having a wall that was in fact mostly concrete.

In the second photo from the top, the walls illustrate another of his rules: no right angles! The house and grounds consist almost exclusively of straight lines... but they never meet in right angles.

 
 
Trout Giggles
18.1.2  Trout Giggles  replied to  Bob Nelson @18.1.1    2 months ago

Ok, I get the rocks in the concrete concept. But there are right angles....look at the rock/concrete walls. However, I am not an artist nor an architect so maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there

 
 
Bob Nelson
18.1.3  seeder  Bob Nelson  replied to  Trout Giggles @18.1.2    2 months ago
But there are right angles....look at the rock/concrete walls.

Nope!

Look again. The walls' edges meet - the edge of the low wall on the left continues on, as a groove, into the higher wall ahead. None of the junctions are right angles.

As you stroll through the house, the only right angles you find are mechanical necessities like doors.

The stainless steel bathroom that we glimpse in the seventh photo violates all the rules. Since stainless steel is quintessentially "unnatural", a sort of "anti-rock", FLW went all-out, with right angles everywhere. After an hour wandering about without any right angles, the bathroom is a shock!

 
 
Trout Giggles
18.1.4  Trout Giggles  replied to  Bob Nelson @18.1.3    2 months ago

Ok....got it

 
 
JohnRussell
19  JohnRussell    2 months ago

Tax-dodging Trump flunky won’t fly the US flag on her $40 million yacht

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is dodging more than $2 million worth of taxes by registering her yacht in the Cayman Islands rather than the United States.

Trump often roars about the need to respect the flag in his racist rants against NFL players who kneel during the national anthem. Yet as it turns out, embattled Education Secretary Betsy DeVos refuses to fly the American flag on at least one of her family’s ten yachts.

Devos’ 164-foot yacht — the one that was recently untied and set adrift — flies the flag of the Cayman Islands, not the stars and stripes.

And this foreign flag isn’t just a unpatriotic decorating choice. It’s also a scheme that helps DeVos “avoid taxes, regulations, transparency requirements and domestic employment laws,” Newsweekreports.

Newsweek estimates that the DeVos empire would owe the state of Michigan roughly $2.4 million if it registered the $40 million yacht there, rather than in the Cayman Islands.

The yacht is technically owned by RDV International Marine, an affiliate of the company tied to the DeVos fortune. RDV is located in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and the boat is typically docked in the Great Lakes.

DeVos is estimated to be worth $1.3 billion. To put that into perspective, a $2.4 million tax bill for DeVos would be like $92 for a family making $50,000.

State taxes for yachts help pay for services like a police force to help owners if their yachts are ever set adrift.

The good people of Ohio, where DeVos’ yacht was set adrift, were forced to cover those expenses for her, since the billionaire refuses to pay her fair share to the ports she routinely visits in the United States.

In addition to stiffing the people of Michigan and Ohio, DeVos can also skirt a number of U.S. laws and regulations by turning her back on Old Glory.

By choosing the Cayman Islands over the country she serves, DeVos can hire a crew from outside the United States, skip out on paying for workers compensation insurance, and avoid mandatory inspections and certifications by the U.S. Coast Guard, one Miami maritime lawyer told Grand Cayman Magazine in an article titled, “The super-rich and their super-yachts.”

Many professional athletes respectfully take a knee during the national anthem in order to draw attention to systematic racism in the United States.

Meanwhile DeVos, whose boss constantly bellows about putting “America first,” flies the Cayman flag on her $40 million yacht so she can save a few bucks.

 
 
Kavika
19.1  Kavika   replied to  JohnRussell @19    2 months ago

Well being a patriotic American I register my boat in the great state of Missouri. And there is a decal of the American flag on her as well. 

My income is a lot closer to the $50,000 then it is to $1.3 billion. 

 SAM_0035a1.jpg

 
 
Trout Giggles
19.1.1  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @19.1    2 months ago

I like your boat, Kav. How fast does it go?

 
 
Kavika
19.1.2  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @19.1.1    2 months ago

Top speed around 50 MPH, Trout

 
 
Trout Giggles
19.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Kavika @19.1.2    2 months ago

Fast enough to pull my fat ass on a tube.

I haven't been tubing or skiing in forever. I mentioned something about to Mr Giggles the other day and he laughed at me. Said I had no business getting on skis ever again

 
 
badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη
19.1.4  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη  replied to  Kavika @19.1    2 months ago

Catch and release on the fishing I hope!

 
 
Kavika
19.1.5  Kavika   replied to  Trout Giggles @19.1.3    2 months ago

LOL, well do we have to listen to Mr. Giggles.Happy

 
 
Kavika
19.1.6  Kavika   replied to  badfish hαηd ⊕ƒ †hε Ωuεεη @19.1.4    2 months ago

Indeed BF, except in cases where I pull up a really BAD FISH...laughing dude

 
 
MUVA
19.1.7  MUVA  replied to  Kavika @19.1.2    2 months ago

That is stretching it a little 50 mph maybe in salt waterThumbs Up 2

 
 
Texan1211
19.2  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @19    2 months ago

Congratulations.

You and your friends have turned this seed into a hate DeVos thread.

 
 
Tessylo
19.3  Tessylo  replied to  JohnRussell @19    2 months ago

Someone untied her yacht causing her 40 million dollar yacht 10,000 dollars worth of damage.  What a shame.  

 
 
It Is ME
19.3.1  It Is ME  replied to  Tessylo @19.3    2 months ago

Removed

 
 
Texan1211
19.3.2  Texan1211  replied to  It Is ME @19.3.1    2 months ago

It is hilarious they consider her having to pay anything because of stupid actions by even stupider people.

What they fail to realize is that this was an ANNOYANCE to De Vos, not some earth-shattering tragic event!

And 10k to her is probably like a buck to me!

Let the haters hate--what else do they have?

 
 
JohnRussell
19.3.3  JohnRussell  replied to  Texan1211 @19.3.2    2 months ago

If Trump didnt name this unqualified woman to his cabinet I never would have heard of her. It's his fault. 

 
 
Texan1211
19.3.4  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @19.3.3    2 months ago

Removed

 
 
It Is ME
19.3.5  It Is ME  replied to  Texan1211 @19.3.2    2 months ago
Let the haters hate--what else do they have?

Public Bathroom "Choice" ? laughing dude

 
 
XDm9mm
19.3.6  XDm9mm  replied to  Tessylo @19.3    2 months ago

The ignorance of some is amazing....

I must surmise that the morons that accomplished that task have nothing of value that they own and insure as the damages were simply paid by that dastardly insurance company, who due to the loss will simply recover the expended monies from other policy holders by raising premiums.

What will their mommies and daddies say when they see their next insurance bill for the car that the morons they spawned drive?

 
 
XDm9mm
19.3.7  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @19.3.3    2 months ago

Is that like the appointment of Van Jones as "green jobs czar" (please notice the RUSSIAN title)?

 
 
It Is ME
19.3.8  It Is ME  replied to  It Is ME @19.3.1    2 months ago

But sooooo true !

 
 
Texan1211
19.3.9  Texan1211  replied to  JohnRussell @19.3.3    2 months ago

So it is Trump's fault you didn't know something or someone?

Wow.

 
 
epistte
19.3.10  epistte  replied to  XDm9mm @19.3.7    2 months ago
Is that like the appointment of Van Jones as "green jobs czar" (please notice the RUSSIAN title)?

Reagan was the first POTUS to use the title Czar for public positions.

In 1988, Reagan created the Office of National Drug Control Policy to coordinate drug-related legislative, security, diplomatic, research and health policy throughout the government. Successive agency directors were dubbed “drug czars” by the media. In 1993, President Bill Clinton raised the post to Cabinet-level status.

 
 
Kavika
19.3.11  Kavika   replied to  epistte @19.3.10    2 months ago

OMG, Reagan was the Manchurian Candidate.... 

 
 
XDm9mm
19.4  XDm9mm  replied to  JohnRussell @19    2 months ago

What's your point?   Why didn't you post this....

POLITICS 
07/23/2010 10:09 am ET Updated Jul 05, 2013

John Kerry Saves $500,000 By Docking 76-Foot Luxury Yacht Out Of State

BOSTON (AP) — Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry is docking his family’s new $7 million yacht in neighboring Rhode Island, allowing him to avoid paying roughly $500,000 in taxes to the cash-strapped Bay State. If the “Isabel” were kept at the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee’s summer vacation home on Nantucket, or in Boston Harbor near his city residence, he would be liable for $437,500 in one-time sales tax. He would also have to pay $70,000 in annual excise taxes.

Source: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/john-kerry-saves-500000-b_n_656985.html

Oh, that's right....   he's a Democrat that supported Clinton...  oh and HE married into the money a capitalist EARNED since he was too damn idiotic to earn any himself.  

And didn't he also fight against building an offshore windfarm since it would ruin his view of the bay?   Poor, poor, rich shit.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
20  Galen Marvin Ross    2 months ago

I don't know how true it is but, my sisters first husband is said to come from the family that owns this place,

vanderbilt mansion.png

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
21  Buzz of the Orient    2 months ago

It must be nice to live like an Earl or Count. The first year of my life was spent in my grandmother's apartment above her store, and the next 17 years were spent in this home that my father bought for about $3000.  My brother and I shared a bedroom because the third bedroom was rented out to help carry the costs. 

Glen Road.jpg

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
21.1  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @21    2 months ago

I don't have any pictures of any childhood homes but, I did happen to find a picture of the type of home I remember from my days in the first grade, after we lived there for about two years, we lived in duplex's until we moved to North Carolina.

florida home.jpg

 
 
321steve
21.1.1  321steve  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @21.1    2 months ago
I don't have any pictures of any childhood homes

I dont either, BUT I can still see them on Google maps. It's weird ~!

LOL

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
21.1.2  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  321steve @21.1.1    2 months ago
I dont either, BUT I can still see them on Google maps. It's weird ~! LOL

Except for the one in Carol City, Florida, which I've found a picture of the type of home it was and, that one is in Carol City, I really don't want to remember any of them but, memory is a funny thing, I can picture them all in my head, even the ones from when we first moved to Florida from Kansas and, I was 6 months old then. I think my brother has all the old pictures of places we lived but, he hasn't put all of them on his computer yet or, at least shared them with the rest of us.

 
 
Buzz of the Orient
21.1.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Galen Marvin Ross @21.1    2 months ago

I was lucky to get that photo - I searched the address on the internet, and the photo came up from a real estate agency that had listed the house for sale.

 
 
Galen Marvin Ross
21.1.4  Galen Marvin Ross  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @21.1.3    2 months ago

It's funny, I don't remember any of the address's, just city's we lived in, of course that's easy for my early childhood, we lived in Dade County Florida till I was in the seventh grade.

 
 
Split Personality
21.2  Split Personality  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @21    2 months ago

I remember my Mother's face when she realized that she had finallly paid off the family home.

Joy followed by dumbfounded disbelief? 

The home was originally $3,000 in 1952

They paid a total of just over 108K in principle and interest over 30 years

by the time the home was "paid off" the insurance and taxes exceeded the original monthly payments by several hundred $$$

The home appreciated briefly to $200,000 before 2008 and now fluctuates around $60,000 - $70,000

 
 
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