How gullibility and cynicism explain Trump voters: The sycophants of a leader who fulfills their narcissistic fantasies will do anything to support him

  
Via:  don-overton  •  one week ago  •  94 comments

How gullibility and cynicism explain Trump voters: The sycophants of a leader who fulfills their narcissistic fantasies will do anything to support him
In Part 1, we looked at Trump’s lies through the lens of the Washington Post’s own “bottomless Pinocchio” lists as well as three academic studies based on their data, before turning…

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


In Part 1, we looked at Trump’s lies through the lens of the Washington Post’s own “bottomless Pinocchio” lists as well as three academic studies based on their data, before turning to a broader perspective. That involves seeing Trump’s lies as part of a larger rhetorical strategy, as described by Jennifer Mercieca, a historian of rhetoric, whose book, “Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump,” [table of contents here] will be published next year.

The bottom line of Part 1 is that Trump’s lies can be understood as expressing his view of the world — how he would like things to be, for whatever purposes he may have, some quite enduring (as seen in his “bottomless Pinocchios”), others perhaps spur-of-the-moment. As Mercieca argued here, the Mueller report can be read as further confirmation of Trump’s authoritarian orientation in word and deed, in sharp contrast to the “total exoneration” he falsely claims it to be. This is entirely typical.  Demagogues and tyrants have always used lies this way. But they cannot and do not act in a vacuum. The broader context in which they operate is the focus of Part 2.

Trump’s team and Trump’s voters

Trump doesn’t act alone. “Trump’s lies are supported by an expert propaganda team,” Mercieca said. “Propaganda seeks to shape understanding by subverting rational thinking. Trump’s propaganda team amplifies his lies (see also [James] Comey’s op-ed about how Trump makes everyone accomplices in his lies), but they also provide him with strategically useful talking points and arguments.”

With his signature attacks on “political correctness,” Trump tries to claim the mantle of a truth-teller — though perhaps without being taken literally. But that’s a problematic claim, to put it mildly.

“In ancient Greece a ‘truth teller’ was known as a parrhesiastes; such a person was a ‘fearless’ speaker, they spoke truth to power, endangering themselves,” Mercieca explained. “What they said was believed to be true because of the risk that they took when they said their unpopular truths. Trump doesn’t speak truth to power, he doesn’t risk his life with his unpopular truths. Trump isn’t a truth teller in the classical sense.”

Nonetheless, “Trump’s lies are popular with his base,” Mercieca acknowledged. She suggests this passage from Hannah Arendt’s “Origins of Totalitarianism” can help:

A mixture of gullibility and cynicism had been an outstanding characteristic of mob mentality before it became an everyday phenomenon of the masses. In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true … Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow.

“I think gullibility and cynicism are a good explanation for Trump voters,” Mercieca said. “They think everything is a lie anyway, so why not cheer for their guy who lies better than the rest of them?”

Three legs of tyranny and how they shape lies

But there’s another way of viewing the pathologies of tyranny, described by Elizabeth Mika, a contributor to “The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump,” which I reviewed here in October 2017. Her contribution, “Who Goes Trump? Tyranny as a Triumph of Narcissism,” was focused on how the threat of this demagogic malignant narcissist interacts with related narcissistic tendencies found among his supporters and society at large. Lies are omnipresent in the world she describes, but the tyrant’s lies — expressing the world-as-he-wants-it and imposing it on everyone around him — can only succeed as part of a broader dynamic of mendacity.

“Tyrannies are three-legged beasts,” Mika explained: There’s the tyrant, his supporters and the society as a whole, and they are bound together in different ways, always with some profound need for deception. The nature of lies that a tyrant or would-be tyrant tells are reflections of all three, not just the tyrant alone. But the idea that Trump would become “normal” was never in the cards, as she reiterated when I reached out to her.

“The dismantling of American democracy under the leadership (if one can call it that) of Donald Trump is proceeding as predicted, so much so that there is not much to add beyond the somewhat bitter ‘We told you so,’” Mika said. “It is just that the punditocracy is perhaps finally catching up.”

The explosive increase in Trump’s lying noted by the Washington Post was no surprise to Mika. She pointed back to something she wrote just after Trump’s inauguration


What we know about malignant narcissists is that they psychologically decompensate once they achieve the ultimate position of power. They worsen in every possible way: become more grandiose and paranoid, more aggressive and demanding, and progressively less in touch with reality (and Trump has never been fully in touch with it).

We can expect his narcissistic rage to intensify in proportion to his growing grandiosity and paranoia ….

There has never been a case of a malignant narcissist in power whose pathology improved, or even remained stable: they always deteriorate, and often rapidly, as they become drunk on (what they see as) now unlimited power and adulation.

“I wrote that in early 2017, and other pieces in a similar vein all throughout 2016. So none of it is surprising,” Mika told me. “What’s fascinating, in a grim way — though also not surprising — is the blindness of our press, et al., to these developments,” which brings us back to the media’s inability to report what’s right in front of their eyes: an avalanche of  lies.


This isn’t on Trump. It’s rooted in our own elitist narcissism, Mika argues:

I came up with the term “narcissistic blindness” to capture this phenomenon rooted in a seeming conviction that It can’t happen here because we are the beacon of democracy, we have our esteemed institutions, and other self-serving fairy tales reasserting American superiority and invincibility to Americans — as if we were exempt from the universal laws governing humanity since time immemorial. This narcissistic delusion of our exceptionalism is our downfall.

That describes the third leg of tyranny. The one so deep in denial that it thinks it’s not even there. The one that afflicts the media itself directly, and that plays such a big role in rendering it incapable of dealing with Trump’s lies.

As for the other two legs, Mika said:

Another term applicable here is “narcissistic collusion,” which describes the bond between a leader with Trump’s character defect and his sycophants and followers. They mirror their imagined greatness to each other, and this mutually reinforced delusion of grandeur becomes an unshakable bond, superseding any other considerations, like respect for truth and decency, or even a concern for one’s reputation; Comey’s recent New York Times piece touches upon it, but does not go into the narcissism and its spectacular bonding properties.


Both Trump’s close followers and his mass base get swept up in such delusions. The latter are driven by a need for revenge, Mika argued in “Who Goes Trump?”:

… for the tyrant is always chosen to perform this psychically restorative function: to avenge the humiliations (narcissistic wounds) of his followers and punish those who inflicted them.

But the followers are profoundly confused about the actual sources of their wounds. Their misperception “is based on the displacement and projection characteristic of the scapegoating process that becomes an inextricable part of the narcissistic collusion between the tyrant and his followers.”

n turn the displacement, projection and scapegoating are reflected in some of Trump’s lies listed above: those around immigration, most obviously, but also those that overstate the impact of trade deficits, those that exaggerate military spending, and — to the extent the followers fuse their identities with Trump’s — his lies about he himself being persecuted. The revenge-driven power of narcissistic collusion makes such lies especially impervious to rational refutation. Conventional ways to try to understand such lies will inevitably fall short.

The sycophants and followers of a leader who fulfills their narcissistic fantasies will do anything to support him, up to and including self-destruction,” Mika said. “No lie is too big or outlandish when this deeply irrational, even psychotic process is engaged. So we can expect 10,000 more lies from Trump, served more brazenly now that he feels emboldened by putting Mueller’s investigation behind him.”

Of course, it may not be that easy. But Democrats’ refusal to let Mueller’s investigation vanish will only enrage Trump further, leading to even more lies.

There are no simple solutions in Mika’s book. Defeating a tyrant really does depend on draining the swamp he lives in — the larger set of social ills she described in “Who Goes Trump?”:

Tyrants do not arise in a vacuum just as tyranny does not spring on the world unannounced. It takes years of cultivation of special conditions in a society for a tyranny to take over. Those conditions invariably include a growing and unbearably oppressive economic and social inequality ignored by the elites who benefit from it, at least for a time; fear, moral confusion, and chaos that come from that deepening inequality and a breakdown of social norms, and growing disregard for the humanity of a large portion of the population, as well as for higher values.


The positive vision that Democratic presidential candidates are striving to articulate needs to deal effectively with this reality. If it doesn’t, even defeating Trump in 2020 won’t be enough. If the conditions that raised him to power continue, there will be another much like him to come — perhaps a more intelligent, more effective one. Trump’s lies will continue — whether from his lips, or from those of others — as long as we fail to confront the truth about ourselves as a society.

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Don Overton
1  seeder  Don Overton    one week ago

512

 
 
 
bbl-1
2  bbl-1    one week ago

"Gullibility, cynicism?

Or, the effectiveness of well executed propaganda on a population that ceases to believe in itself?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3  Nerm_L    one week ago

So, impeach Trump already.  As the seed explains, Trump is nothing more than a narcissistic tyrant who has blinded his followers to his true nature.  Defeating Trump in an election will not change the belief system of his followers; those followers aren't going away.

Why are Democrats refusing to speak truth to power?  Is it because Democrat's might suffer political harm for speaking truth?  Doesn't that make Democrats something less than truth tellers, too? 

Why is the Democrat's wild-eyed, spittle spewing, lie infested outrage any different than what Trump is doing?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Nerm_L @3    one week ago
Defeating Trump in an election will not change the belief system of his followers; those followers aren't going away.

Only education can help, but sadly it won't have much effect on a large portion of Trump supporters. As they say, you can fix ignorance with education but you just can't fix stupid.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.1.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1    one week ago
Only education can help, but sadly it won't have much effect on a large portion of Trump supporters. As they say, you can fix ignorance with education but you just can't fix stupid.

Democrats claim to be educated and definitely not stupid.

Democrats have the results of numerous investigations by the FBI, intelligence agencies, several Congressional committees, state investigations (especially New York), and an extensive investigation by an independent special counsel.  Congressional Democrats have access to information that the public will never see.  So, what else do Democrats need to impeach Trump?

Why are Democrats any different than Trump followers?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.1    one week ago
Why are Democrats any different than Trump followers?

"In short, it appears as though educational levels are the critical factor in predicting shifts in the vote between 2012 and 2016. You can come to that conclusion with a relatively simple analysis, like the one I’ve conducted above, or by using fancier methods. In a regression analysis at the county level, for instance, lower-income counties were no more likely to shift to Trump once you control for education levels.

In fact, in some regression specifications — such as if you weight by a county’s population — lower incomes were actually associated with a slight shift toward Clinton, when education levels were held constant.

And although there’s more work to be done, these conclusions also appear to hold if you examine the data at a more granular level, like by precinct or among individual voters in panel surveys.

But although this finding is clear in a statistical sense, that doesn’t mean the interpretation of it is straightforward. It seems to me that there a number of competing hypotheses that are compatible with this evidence, some of which will be favored by conservatives and some by liberals:

  • Education levels may be a proxy for cultural hegemony. Academia, the news media and the arts and entertainment sectors are increasingly dominated by people with a liberal, multicultural worldview, and jobs in these sectors also almost always require college degrees. Trump’s campaign may have represented a backlash against these cultural elites.
  • Educational attainment may be a better indicator of long-term economic well-being than household incomes. Unionized jobs in the auto industry often pay reasonably well even if they don’t require college degrees, for instance, but they’re also potentially at risk of being shipped overseas or automated.
  • Education levels probably have some relationship with racial resentment, although the causality isn’t clear. The act of having attended college itself may be important, insofar as colleges and universities are often more diverse places than students’ hometowns. There’s more research to be done on how exposure to racial minorities affected white voters. For instance, did white voters who live in counties with large Hispanic populations shift toward Clinton or toward Trump?
  • Education levels have strong relationships with media-consumption habits, which may have been instrumental in deciding people’s votes, especially given the overall decline in trust in the news media.
  • Trump’s approach to the campaignrelying on emotional appeals while glossing over policy details — may have resonated more among people with lower education levels as compared with Clinton’s wonkier and more cerebral approach.

So data like this is really just a starting point for further research into the campaign. Nonetheless, the education gap is carving up the American electorate and toppling political coalitions that had been in place for many years."

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.1.3  Nerm_L  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.2    one week ago
So data like this is really just a starting point for further research into the campaign. Nonetheless, the education gap is carving up the American electorate and toppling political coalitions that had been in place for many years."

The 2016 campaigns are over, the votes have been counted, and Donald Trump is the 45th President.  Analysis of the last campaign doesn't change the facts that Trump followers elected Donald Trump and Congressional Democrats are allowing Trump to remain in office.

No amount of data manipulation avoids the necessity of Democrats impeaching Trump to remove a lying, narcissistic tyrant who has blinded his followers to his true nature.  Either the data manipulation shows that there are more stupid uneducated Trump followers than Democrats (not good for Democrats) or the data manipulation shows that the educated smart Democrats aren't any different than Trump followers because Trump remains in office.

Trump followers are not going to remove him from office.  Since Trump followers are so blindly stupid, they are content with Trump in office.  Is it better to be stupid and happy or smart and miserable?  Do Democrats really think they can remove Trump by making happy Trump followers as miserable as Democrats?  That doesn't seem like a smart way to lessen Democrat's misery.

What more will Democrats need to use their educated smarts to impeach Trump?

 
 
 
Greg Jones
3.1.4  Greg Jones  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1    one week ago
As they say, you can fix ignorance with education but you just can't fix stupid.

Millions of people were educated enough to know that the lying bitch Hillary was bad news for the country.

Many people can go to university and get some paper credentials, but then they come onto sites like this and regularly display they are not very bright or intelligent. A list of those will be sent upon request.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.5  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Greg Jones @3.1.4    one week ago
Millions of people were educated enough to know that the lying bitch Hillary was bad news for the country.

Hillary got millions more votes and had the highest percentage of college graduate voters, those who likely have a fuller knowledge of civics, US government and the constitution. Trump cornered the market on high school drop outs who were easily misled due to not having a solid education that would be able to dismiss the conspiracy theories for what they were, complete nonsense. Instead you have a Trump supporter showing up with a rifle at the pizza parlor they think Hillary is running a child sex ring out of. I'm not saying all Trump supporters are gullible idiots, I'm just saying that most gullible idiots who voted, voted for Trump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/27/upshot/trump-losing-college-educated-whites-he-never-won-them-in-the-first-place.html

"We won with poorly educated. I love the poorly educated," - Donald Trump Feb 24, 2016

And now we know why...

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.6  gooseisgone  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.5    one week ago
Hillary got millions more votes and had the highest percentage of college graduate voters, those who likely have a fuller knowledge of civics, US government and the constitution. 

Oh spare me, who gives a shit about "more votes" our country doesn't elect presidents by poplar vote,  Oh wait ....you all have a higher percentage of college graduates, have fuller knowledge of civics, US government and the constitution you should know that. Apparently hillary voters aren't as smart as you claim they are.  

I'm not saying all Trump supporters are gullible idiots,

Funny...reminds me of the gullible idiot Hillary supporters who believed there was collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.7  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.6    one week ago
who gives a shit about "more votes" our country doesn't elect presidents by poplar vote

We weren't talking about the electoral college, Greg said "Millions of people were educated enough to know that the lying bitch Hillary was bad news for the country", I was simply pointing out that millions more didn't fall for the nonsensical rhetoric about her being "a lying bitch" because they were apparently better educated than those who bought into the lies and Russian bots.

"you should know that"

Please do find any quote from me at any time that says I don't believe Donald Trump is President. I have said he isn't qualified to be President, he isn't a President that represents me or my ideals or what I believe America stands for, but I've never said he wasn't President. I have been fully aware of how the electoral college works and always found it to be a useless vestige of a time where our founders had to compromise with bigots to secure our nations future. But I accept that it is still in place and did give Donald Trump the Presidency in 2016.

"Of the more than 120 million votes cast in the 2016 election, 107,000 votes in three states effectively decided the election."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/swing-state-margins/?noredirect=on

107,000 of loaded extra weight votes overturned the will of more than 3 million other Americans. But that's the law and I accept it regardless of how stupid such a system is.

"reminds me of the gullible idiot Hillary supporters who believed there was collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign"

Russia did aid Trump and his campaign and wanted him to win the election, that's a fact. Russian did illegally hack a US political party and steal documents with the intent to help their preferred political party, the one they believe they will be better able to manipulate and bend to their will, why else dedicate the resources to such a campaign. Trump campaign staff had numerous contacts with Russian operatives. Several of Trumps campaign staff then lied about those contacts. They even sent Russian operatives campaign polling data that is used to target specific voting groups. The only reason Trump and his staff haven't been convicted of criminal conspiracy is because there wasn't enough evidence to prove Trumps campaign staff knew they were dealing with Russian foreign agents. So they did conspire, it just can't be proved they knowingly conspired with foreign agents that would take it from unethical to illegal. But the ethical standards seem to have all been discarded by most Republicans and their legislators a while ago now, the bar they apparently have now for President is just laying on the floor.

 
 
 
Drakkonis
3.1.8  Drakkonis  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.1    one week ago
Why are Democrats any different than Trump followers?

They aren't. Both sides have their extremists. Both sides spew lies the farther left or right that you go. The only hope this country has is in the middle, but neither side will go there because they fear that if they do, they will be drug farther to the other side than they want to go. They fear that if they give an inch, the other will take a mile. So, as time goes by, each side just keeps moving farther into their own side and the middle shrinks. I don't hold out much hope. 

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.9  gooseisgone  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.7    one week ago
"you should know that" Please do find any quote from me at any time that says I don't believe Donald Trump is President.

Well for starters I never accused you of that, the point was "you should know, popular vote means nothing"

I have been fully aware of how the electoral college works and always found it to be a useless vestige of a time where our founders had to compromise with bigots to secure our nations future. But I accept that it is still in place and did give Donald Trump the Presidency in 2016.

Have the liberal failing masses decide the President every 4 years, that's a wonderful idea

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.10  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.9    one week ago
Have the liberal failing masses decide the President every 4 years, that's a wonderful idea

It's about having the American people decide who is their President every four years. There is no difference in how 'American' a liberal is versus a conservative, they both should be equal. Right now, there is an inherently unequal aspect to the electoral college. It gives added weight to rural, often more conservative voters. This is stupid, wrong headed, ignorant, pointless and exceedingly unfair and gives rural conservatives a privileged platform, it makes them a 'superior status American' completely contrary to our founders intent.

The liberal masses aren't failing, even if they lose a battle or two they inevitably always win the war against conservatives and conservative ideology. Conservatives fought to conserve slavery, segregation, bans on women voting, bans on blacks voting, bans on interracial marriage and bans on gay marriage. They often won small battles along the way, but eventually liberals and progressives won the wars. What did those who fought desperately against the civil rights act, the voting rights act, and the overturning of the defense of marriage act all have in common? They all considered themselves 'conservatives' and raged against the supposed 'liberal masses' pushing them inexorably towards equality and diversity.

 
 
 
Ozzwald
3.1.11  Ozzwald  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.3    one week ago
The 2016 campaigns are over, the votes have been counted, and Donald Trump is the 45th President.  

Little correction:

The 2016 campaigns are over, the ELECTORAL COLLEGE votes have been counted, and Donald Trump is the 45th President.

Analysis of the last campaign doesn't change the facts that Trump followers elected Donald Trump and Congressional Democrats are allowing Trump to remain in office.

No, the Republicans are"allowing him" despite his actions which would have caused immediate impeachment proceedings against Obama.  The Democrats may be dragging their feet, but Trump's continuing obstruction of House investigations may finally push them over the edge.

No amount of data manipulation avoids the necessity of Democrats impeaching Trump to remove a lying, narcissistic tyrant who has blinded his followers to his true nature.  Either the data manipulation shows that there are more stupid uneducated Trump followers than Democrats (not good for Democrats) or the data manipulation shows that the educated smart Democrats aren't any different than Trump followers because Trump remains in office.

Or maybe hesitant to do something that will effectively tear the country apart?  I may disagree with their speed in this, but it is at least moving in a direction now.

Trump followers are not going to remove him from office.

This includes all Republican members of Congress, which is what is causing the hesitancy.  No matter the evidence, Republicans will block all impeachment attempts.

Do Democrats really think they can remove Trump by making happy Trump followers as miserable as Democrats?  That doesn't seem like a smart way to lessen Democrat's misery.

No, but day to day, happy Trump followers are becoming less and less happy.  Just ask the soy bean farmers.

What more will Democrats need to use their educated smarts to impeach Trump?

Maybe they're playing the long game, since impeachment will fail due to the corrupt Republicans.

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.12  bbl-1  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.1    one week ago

At least the dems won't take away the birth control.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.1.13  Nerm_L  replied to  Ozzwald @3.1.11    one week ago
The 2016 campaigns are over, the ELECTORAL COLLEGE votes have been counted, and Donald Trump is the 45th President.

Whatever eases the angst.  There aren't any arguments about the 2016 election that will alter the fact that Donald Trump is the 45th President and sits in the Oval Office.  Trump is behaving the same way today as he did during the Republican primaries and debates; Trump has not changed.  All of Trump's followers know now what they knew then.  Democrats have changed nothing.

No, the Republicans are"allowing him" despite his actions which would have caused immediate impeachment proceedings against Obama.  The Democrats may be dragging their feet, but Trump's continuing obstruction of House investigations may finally push them over the edge.

Well, duh.  Republicans elected Donald Trump, big surprise.  Democrats are still defending President Obama and its impossible to impeach Obama now (or impeach Clinton) because the election is over and Trump won.

Pointing fingers at Republicans for engaging in the same politics as Democrats is a laughable argument.  That only admits that politics has become far more important than policy.  Confirming that neither Republicans or Democrats can govern isn't an endorsement of the political system.

Democrat's brand of stupid isn't any better than Republican's brand of stupid.  And apparently Democrats are educated enough or smart enough to understand that.  Democrats seem to know they are acting stupidly.  Why should anyone be surprised that electing clowns would turn the government into a circus?

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.1.14  Nerm_L  replied to  bbl-1 @3.1.12    one week ago
At least the dems won't take away the birth control.

Democrats have dedicated themselves to screwing each other for no purpose.  And Republicans oppose birth control simply because Democrats support it.

The debate over birth control isn't between humanity's brightest people.  It's an argument for the sake of argument.  

 
 
 
Texan1211
3.1.15  Texan1211  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.1    one week ago
So, what else do Democrats need to impeach Trump?

Guts and integrity?

LOL!

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.1.16  dennis smith  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1    one week ago

Fixing the Dems would be fixing stupid, but as you said it is not possible. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.1.17  dennis smith  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.10    one week ago

The American people via the electoral college do elect the POTUS every 4 years. The Americans people have spoken and you just won't accept the result. The system is not going to change because of wishful thinking of  the few.

 
 
 
gooseisgone
3.1.18  gooseisgone  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.10    one week ago
It's about having the American people decide who is their President every four years.

Which is exactly what takes place except its 50 individual elections rather than a few big cities/states deciding who is President.

There is no difference in how 'American' a liberal is versus a conservative, they both should be equal.

Why would you think there is a difference.

Right now, there is an inherently unequal aspect to the electoral college

No there isn't, the electoral college is doing exactly what is was set up to do, everyone gets represented. 

It gives added weight to rural, often more conservative voters.

The same could be said that it gives to much wait to urban voters.

This is stupid, wrong headed, ignorant, pointless and exceedingly unfair and gives rural conservatives a privileged platform, it makes them a 'superior status American' completely contrary to our founders intent.

The Democrat party gives priority status to all types of groups and is proud of it.  Why are some groups privileged and some not.  I believe it is working EXACTLY as the founders wanted.

The liberal masses aren't failing

I guess if you want to be controlled by the government they aren't, so you enjoy your children being told what to eat, how much of something you can drink, who they compete against in sports, who enters their locker rooms, having homeless sleeping, do drugs and defecating on the sidewalks, releasing criminals from jail so they won't get deported, welcoming open boarders, spending money they don't have.  I guess that's success in a liberals mind. 

Conservatives fought to conserve slavery, segregation, bans on women voting, bans on blacks voting,

You mean democrats, I please don't give me the bullshit that they became Republicans.  

bans on gay marriage

I would suggest you search who has been "against" gay marriage before you post.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.19  Dulay  replied to  gooseisgone @3.1.18    one week ago
No there isn't, the electoral college is doing exactly what is was set up to do, everyone gets represented. 

Though not represented equally. Some electors represent hundreds of thousands more voters that others. Some quadruple others...

 
 
 
livefreeordie
3.1.20  livefreeordie  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.14    one week ago

Total nonsense. Name the members of Congress who have put forth any legislation banning the sale of birth control.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
3.1.21  livefreeordie  replied to  Dulay @3.1.19    one week ago

[deleted]

the Electoral College is properly our method of choosing presidents because we are a Republic of Sovereign States, not a national government of democracy

there is no right to vote for president. States are responsible for electing presidents and our Constitutional system ensures that smaller states have an equal voice as dictated by the Constitution 

i also support repeal of the 17th Amendment and return of state legislators selecting Senators. It would truly improve the Senate

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.1.22  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  livefreeordie @3.1.21    one week ago

Time, progress, liberals, progressives and the inevitable shrinking in number of science denying evangelicals, rural conservatives and religious bigots who believe they should have more say in the direction of our country than other Americans, will eventually win out, no matter how much the religious bigots struggle and scream. This is not 'their' nation, this is not 'their' promised land, this constitution and government is by ALL the citizens, for ALL the citizens, not just a handful of religious bigots who think they are superior and should have a special pedestal on which to stand and rule.

Progressives, liberals, logic and reason, all will slowly, inexorably wipe out the ignorant prejudices, the stupid bickering over unproven faiths, the moronic divisions, the misogyny, the homophobia, the dripping filthy hypocritical hate coming from those who claim to be so righteous. All will end regardless of how much these idiots gnash their teeth. There's nothing they can do about it and that's what really makes them so bitterly angry and why they would wish such a destructive clown like Trump on all of us. Trump will be just a minor setback on the road to progress, so buckle up bible belt, you're in for one hell of a ride. Whether the EC remains allowing the Republicans their only chance at choosing a President or not won't make any difference in just a few election cycles as the slim margins in the battle ground States continues to narrow. I recommend getting used to a diverse America and ditching any idea of "white culture" or "white nationalism" as being important or desirable to real Americans who embrace our diversity.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.1.23  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @3.1.21    one week ago
Why are leftists so ignorant of the Constitution?

[Removed

The number of people represented by each elector has NOTHING to do with the Constitution. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.1.24  dennis smith  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.1.22    one week ago

deleted for context [ph]

 
 
 
bbl-1
3.1.25  bbl-1  replied to  Nerm_L @3.1.14    one week ago

I will politely disagree with your assertion.  The argument is about the power to control, to subjugate.

 
 
 
Ronin2
3.2  Ronin2  replied to  Nerm_L @3    one week ago

delete

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.2.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Ronin2 @3.2    one week ago
deleted for context

 
 
 
It Is ME
3.2.2  It Is ME  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.1    one week ago
deleted for context

?

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
3.2.3  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  It Is ME @3.2.2    one week ago
deleted for context.

 
 
 
It Is ME
3.2.4  It Is ME  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.3    one week ago

[deleted]

 
 
 
lib50
3.2.5  lib50  replied to  Ronin2 @3.2    one week ago
deleted for context
 
 
 
Greg Jones
3.2.6  Greg Jones  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @3.2.3    one week ago

deleted for context

 
 
 
Don Overton
3.2.7  seeder  Don Overton  replied to  It Is ME @3.2.2    one week ago

deleted for context

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3    one week ago
As the seed explains, Trump is nothing more than a narcissistic tyrant who has blinded his followers to his true nature.

The more I read, the more I doubt that most Trump voters were blinded by his 'true nature'. In fact, it seems that many of them relish it. They don't seem to care that he's a 'narcissistic tyrant' as long as he gives them uber conservative judges, deregulation and tax breaks. Any and all other sins are forgiven and/or ignored.

In many cases, they actually encourage his narcissism. They insist that he's the BEST ever and even that he was anointed by god. 

His tyranny doesn't phase them either.

To his utter disregard for the rule of law they say "So what?"

To his proud ignorance of history and the importance of America's position in the world they say "Murica First!"

To his disregard for America's Intel agencies they say "Deep State". 

The cognitive dissonance required to hold these positions while pretending at the same time to herald American exceptionalism is galactic. 

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.3.1  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @3.3    one week ago
The more I read, the more I doubt that most Trump voters were blinded by his 'true nature'. In fact, it seems that many of them relish it. They don't seem to care that he's a 'narcissistic tyrant' as long as he gives them uber conservative judges, deregulation and tax breaks. Any and all other sins are forgiven and/or ignored.

Well, that's pretty much the point.  Everyone knew who and what Donald Trump was before the election.  It's easy to ignore the Republican primaries and debates but they really did happen.  The Donald Trump that ran in the primaries is the same Donald Trump that sits in the oval office; Trump hasn't changed.

The case to impeach Trump was made long before the election.  How many marches and protests did Democrats stage following the election?  How many news stories have litigated the election?  What more do Democrats need?  Why are Democrats dragging their feet?  

Democrat's smarts and education appear to be a political hindrance.  Donald Trump would have pulled the trigger already.  Trump (and a large part of the public) understand that Democrats are wild eyed, spittle spewing do-nothing screechers and Trump is rubbing Democrat's noses in it.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3.2  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.1    one week ago
Everyone knew who and what Donald Trump was before the election.

Then his followers weren't 'blind to his true nature', were they? 

What more do Democrats need? Why are Democrats dragging their feet?

Well gee Nerm, the Democrats JUST took over the House. Since you insist that the case was made long before the inauguration, WTF was the GOP doing for the last 2 years? Why are so many of his followers insisting that the Dems have to RUSH to get the job done now? 

Democrat's smarts and education appear to be a political hindrance.

How so? 

Donald Trump would have pulled the trigger already.

Exactly, that's why Clinton is behind bars.../s 

Trump (and a large part of the public) understand that Democrats are wild eyed, spittle spewing do-nothing screechers and Trump is rubbing Democrat's noses in it.

Ya because ignoring subpoenas and ordering the DOJ to investigate your opponents is the way to MAGA. 

Talk about being blind to Trump's true nature...

 
 
 
Tessylo
3.3.3  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.1    one week ago
'Trump (and a large part of the public) understand that Democrats are wild eyed, spittle spewing do-nothing screechers and Trump is rubbing Democrat's noses in it.'

[Removed

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.3.4  Nerm_L  replied to  Dulay @3.3.2    one week ago
Then his followers weren't 'blind to his true nature', were they? 

That's the claim made by the seeded article; not my claim.  Democrats are claiming that Republicans voted for Trump because Republicans are ignorant and stupid.  Democrats are claiming Republicans were blind to Trump's true nature.

The reality is that Republicans knew who and what Trump was before the election.  A lying, narcissistic tyrant (actually an egotistical TV clown) beat the most qualified candidate to come along in decades and voters knew who they were voting for (or voting against).

The 2016 wasn't a referendum on the intelligence and education of voters; that wasn't on the ballot.  The reality is that the Democratic candidate lost the election because  she is a Democrat.  (And partly because Trump is not a Republican.)  Trump had to beat the Republican Party before he could beat the Democratic Party.  The 2016 election really was a referendum on party politics.

Well gee Nerm, the Democrats JUST took over the House. Since you insist that the case was made long before the inauguration, WTF was the GOP doing for the last 2 years? Why are so many of his followers insisting that the Dems have to RUSH to get the job done now? 

And are not doing anything other than wild-eyed spittle spewing.  I mean, Democrats have turned the House of Representative into a promotional sponsor for KFC.  Democrats are in the poultry business; Democrats are chickens at heart.

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3.5  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago
That's the claim made by the seeded article; not my claim. 

It IS? You seem to be the only one using that phrase. How about you block quote that text in your next reply. I'll wait.

And are not doing anything other than wild-eyed spittle spewing.

So all those hearings, document requests and subpoenas are just a figment of my imagination?

Are the court cases a fantasy too? 

Judge Amit Mehta would refute that claim...

BTW, I note that you didn't address the GOP enabling the narcissistic tyrant for 2 years. 

Democrats! Democrats! Democrats! 

Laughable. 

 
 
 
Tessylo
3.3.6  Tessylo  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago

jrSmiley_44_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_90_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_88_smiley_image.gifjrSmiley_25_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.3.7  r.t..b...  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago
The 2016 election really was a referendum on party politics.

Agreed. Both parties were taken aback and both have pivoted further from the center as a reaction. So now 2020 will be a referendum on which candidate best panders to the fringe elements of their base. Advantage incumbent. The campaigns promise to be the ugliest ever and the eventual winner will face four years of antipathy, congressional hearings, and court cases in a specious effort to undermine their administration. Welcome to 21st century politics, where elections are meaningless as policy takes a back seat to retribution. It will only get worse until a viable third party emerges from the ashes the current system has set ablaze. 

 
 
 
Ozzwald
3.3.8  Ozzwald  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago
The reality is that Republicans knew who and what Trump was before the election.

No, the reality is that they believed Trump when HE told them what he was.

  • Trump said he was a billionaire.  Is he?  Evidence is pointing more and more to NOT EVEN CLOSE.
  • Trump said he is a very stable genius.  Is he?  Evidence is saying no.  Unless you believe in windmill cancer.
  • Trump said he was in better physical shape than any previous President.  No comment necessary.
  • Trump said that he only hires the best.  Trump's turnover rate says otherwise.  Trump confirms it himself when her talks about his former employees.

Most Republicans that vote for Trump do it because he allows them to feel like victims, and then they can blame someone else for their shortcomings. 

The remaining are the wealthy, and they voted for him because they knew that everything he does is designed to help the wealthy get wealthier on the backs of the others.

 
 
 
Nerm_L
3.3.9  Nerm_L  replied to  r.t..b... @3.3.7    one week ago
Agreed. Both parties were taken aback and both have pivoted further from the center as a reaction. So now 2020 will be a referendum on which candidate best panders to the fringe elements of their base. Advantage incumbent. The campaigns promise to be the ugliest ever and the eventual winner will face four years of antipathy, congressional hearings, and court cases in a specious effort to undermine their administration. Welcome to 21st century politics, where elections are meaningless as policy takes a back seat to retribution. It will only get worse until a viable third party emerges from the ashes the current system has set ablaze.

One of the fascinating aspects of what is going on is that Trump is actually moving Republicans closer to the center (yes, there is a long way to go yet).  The TEA Party moved Republicans to the far right and ceded the center to Democrats.  That allowed Democrats to appear centrist by default.  But Trump isn't a tax hawk, doesn't seem concerned by deficits and debt, and certainly hasn't been pushing an agenda of fiscal austerity.  Trump challenged the far right to legislate and they didn't.  Trump called the far right's bluff.  Instead the far right have been leaving.  Paul Ryan, as an example, wasn't forced out of office by a Democratic challenge, he just quit because Trump wouldn't listen.  IMO the Republican Party isn't moving farther right, the party is moving closer to the center. 

Prominent Republicans aren't talking about the Reagan legacy any longer.  Reagan Republicans lost early in the 2016 primaries; the Republican primaries was a battle between the TEA Party and Trump.  Ted Cruz lost.  The only candidate that tried to protect the Reagan legacy and had a chance at winning the White House was Hillary Clinton.  Trump has created a political vacuum within the Republican Party; Reagan is politically dead and the TEA Party has left.  A lot of Republicans are sounding more like Eisenhower Republicans than Goldwater Republicans.  There is a glimmer of hope that Republicans might actually start governing again.  

Since politics (and fundraising) has become more important than policy, Trump has forced Democrats farther left to maintain a competitive separation from Republicans.  That gives Republicans an opportunity to move closer to the center.  The political roles of the two parties are slowly and gradually being reversed.

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.3.10  r.t..b...  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.9    one week ago
There is a glimmer of hope that Republicans might actually start governing again.  

It will be interesting to see who picks up the GOP mantle and if they will continue the trump doctrine of divisiveness and chaos. I believe (and at least hope) that that approach is untenable. As ever, the economy is the lynch-pin. If any one else was overseeing this period of relative stability, they would be nearly unbeatable. He is his own worst enemy and I cannot wait for his tenure to come to an end. What fills the vacuum, and he will leave a huge one, will define our course for the foreseeable future.

 
 
 
livefreeordie
3.3.11  livefreeordie  replied to  r.t..b... @3.3.10    one week ago

Name a single politician who has any convictions that isn’t divisive 

there isn’t a single Democrat running for president that isn’t equally divisive to Trump.  Their divisiveness is more to the issues rather than personality, but that makes no difference in the end

 
 
 
r.t..b...
3.3.12  r.t..b...  replied to  livefreeordie @3.3.11    one week ago
Their divisiveness is more to the issues rather than personality,

It is only divisive in that the democratic policies being put forward are in direct opposition to what you believe. Trump is divisive by nature with a slash and burn mentality that is arguably not in our best interests as a country. Vote against the former as you have every right to do, but to equate it with the latter excuses his erratic and potentially dangerous behavior. And sadly, you may be correct in stating it 'makes no difference in the end.'

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3.13  Dulay  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago

[Removed

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.3.14  dennis smith  replied to  Dulay @3.3    one week ago

The more I read, the more I doubt that most Trump voters were blinded by his 'true nature'. In fact, it seems that many of them relish it. They don't seem to care that he's a 'narcissistic tyrant' as long as he gives them uber conservative judges, deregulation and tax breaks. Any and all other sins are forgiven and/or ignored.

Potus's typically nominate judges who lean in the direction of the President. You have Trump confused with Obama 

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3.15  Dulay  replied to  dennis smith @3.3.14    one week ago
Potus's typically nominate judges who lean in the direction of the President. You have Trump confused with Obama 

Hilarious. Trump doesn't HAVE a direction. 

[Removed

 
 
 
MrFrost
3.3.16  MrFrost  replied to  Nerm_L @3.3.4    one week ago
Democrats are claiming that Republicans voted for Trump because Republicans are ignorant and stupid.

Well, trump did say he loves the poorly educated... Look, he called his supporters stupid and instead of taking offense, they just cheered louder and voted for him anyway. Sorry, but that doesn't exactly come off as, "brilliant". 

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.3.17  dennis smith  replied to  Dulay @3.3.15    one week ago

You are the one who stated he prefers conservative judges. That IS the direction he has taken regarding juges. No different past POTUS. 

 
 
 
dennis smith
3.3.18  dennis smith  replied to  MrFrost @3.3.16    one week ago

When did Trump call his supporters stupid?

In the 2016 election, one candidate called Trump supporters deplorables which helped the electoral college huge victory for Trump.  

 
 
 
Dulay
3.3.19  Dulay  replied to  dennis smith @3.3.17    one week ago
You are the one who stated he prefers conservative judges.

No I didn't dennis. READ MORE CAREFULLY. 

 
 
 
cms5
4  cms5    one week ago

To quote Ronald Reagan - "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."

Trump voters aren't blindly following him, nor do they 'strongly' approve of his performance. They aren't gullible, nor are they cynical. There is no 'mob mentality'. To oppose Trump simply means supporting Democrats...and that is something many will never do...so they remain in Trump's camp.

Trump supporters are blasted with negative news, comments and articles such as this. It doesn't do anything other than harden attitudes when minor issues are blown into major disasters.

Trump voters strongly disapproved of Clinton...and it wasn't just Republicans. The dislike for Clinton was the largest factor behind most votes for Trump. When presenting a 2020 candidate...keep that in mind. A candidate that is standing on a 'free' for all platform...a platform that gives the government all of the power over the People...still leaves voters with an unacceptable alternative. That unacceptable alternative will end up giving Trump another four years.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  cms5 @4    one week ago
To quote Ronald Reagan

"In spite of the wildly speculative and false stories of arms for hostages and alleged ransom payments, we did not—repeat, did not—trade weapons or anything else for hostages, nor will we." - Ronald Reagan November, 1986

"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan March, 1987

The trouble with some of our conservative friends is that they're far too gullible and believe whatever their representatives tell them, just like when Reagan lied with a straight face to the American people.

"Trump voters strongly disapproved of Clinton...and it wasn't just Republicans"

Indeed, Vladimir Putin strongly disapproved of her as well which is why he worked so hard at convincing independents in the swing States that she was running a pizza parlor sex ring or must be responsible for Benghazi even when eight partisan investigations proved otherwise. She was a flawed candidate to be sure, she was the 7 Eleven hot dog of politicians, bland, greasy, gristly dog on chewy two day old bun, but edible. Russia and right wing media simply topped the Clinton dog with all sorts of disgusting things, lies about Benghazi, lies about Uranium One, lies about sex rings, lies about the Clinton foundation, lies about her emails, lies about assassinating staffers, lies about Clinton acquaintances supposedly "mysteriously" dying, all of it was garbage that made a pretty run of the mill politician into "Hildabeast!".

"a platform that gives the government all of the power over the People...still leaves voters with an unacceptable alternative."

The only ones attempting to give the government even greater powers is this wannabe fascist administration led by a monumentally ignorant commander-in-competent. He wants the American people to treat him like Kim Jon Un's people treat him. "(Kim Jong Un) speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same," - Donald Trump

Trump calls the media the "enemy of the people". He believes Putin over hard working American men and women in our intelligence services. He believes Saudi royalty over our intelligence officials and dismisses when they assassinate a journalist. He claims the investigation is a 'hoax' that has turned up dozens of criminals in his campaign who have either plead guilty, been convicted or are under indictment, dozens of Russian operatives indicted. And now he's demanding his AG investigate the investigators who dared find all that dirt on his campaign and documented at least 10 clear counts of obstruction. Sounds a lot like something a frightened dictator would do.

 
 
 
cms5
4.1.1  cms5  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1    one week ago
Indeed, Vladimir Putin strongly disapproved of her as well which is why he worked so hard at convincing independents in the swing States that she was running a pizza parlor sex ring or must be responsible for Benghazi even when eight partisan investigations proved otherwise. She was a flawed candidate to be sure, she was the 7 Eleven hot dog of politicians, bland, greasy, gristly dog on chewy two day old bun, but edible. Russia and right wing media simply topped the Clinton dog with all sorts of disgusting things, lies about Benghazi, lies about Uranium One, lies about sex rings, lies about the Clinton foundation, lies about her emails, lies about assassinating staffers, lies about Clinton acquaintances supposedly "mysteriously" dying, all of it was garbage that made a pretty run of the mill politician into "Hildabeast!".

Contrary to what you might believe, many of us don't really give a rats ass about what Putin thinks.

As for your 'lies'...there really isn't any need to drag all of that back on the 'hot dog'...Hillary's story isn't quite finished yet. She was disliked by many...enough so that voters turned to Trump.

The only ones attempting to give the government even greater powers is this wannabe fascist administration led by a monumentally ignorant commander-in-competent. He wants the American people to treat him like Kim Jon Un's people treat him. "(Kim Jong Un) speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same," - Donald Trump
Trump calls the media the "enemy of the people". He believes Putin over hard working American men and women in our intelligence services. He believes Saudi royalty over our intelligence officials and dismisses when they assassinate a journalist. He claims the investigation is a 'hoax' that has turned up dozens of criminals in his campaign who have either plead guilty, been convicted or are under indictment, dozens of Russian operatives indicted. And now he's demanding his AG investigate the investigators who dared find all that dirt on his campaign and documented at least 10 clear counts of obstruction. Sounds a lot like something a frightened dictator would do.

That is simply your opinion. Unfortunately, so many of us have heard all of this so much we are becoming immune to such rantings.

The 2020 option for the Democrats is to offer a candidate with an acceptable platform...or not. Pretty simple. Choosing the latter may result in Trump winning the election in 2020.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.1.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  cms5 @4.1.1    one week ago
That is simply your opinion

"(Kim Jong Un) speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same," - Donald Trump

That's not an opinion, it's a quote right out of the big idiots mouth.

“The press is doing everything within their power to fight the magnificence of the phrase, MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! They can’t stand the fact that this Administration has done more than virtually any other Administration in its first 2yrs, They are truly the ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!” - Trump tweet 4/5/2019

Again, not opinion.

“I don’t care. I believe Putin.”

"I have President Putin, he just said it’s not Russia, I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.” Donald Trump

Again, not opinion.

"(Khashoggi) told me that he had nothing to do with it, Will anybody really know? All right, will anybody really know?" Donald Trump

Again, not opinion.

"Mueller's investigation is done. Here are the 34 people he indicted along the way"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/25/muellers-russia-report-special-counsel-indictments-charges/3266050002/

Again, not opinion.

"Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team found 10 instances where President Donald Trump’s conduct raised issues of possible obstruction of justice."

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/18/mueller-report-transcript-trump-obstruction-justice-1281245

Again, not opinion.

"Sounds a lot like something a frightened dictator would do."

Okay, you got me, that part was opinion.

 
 
 
Greg Jones
4.1.3  Greg Jones  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1    one week ago
And now he's demanding his AG investigate the investigators who dared find all that dirt on his campaign and documented at least 10 clear counts of obstruction. Sounds a lot like something a frightened dictator would do.

They didn't find any dirt, and he never obstructed the investigation, although I am sure he wanted to. In the process it appears the investigators might have broken the law and bent the rules for political gain. It's obvious that Barr came to the conclusion on his own that the Mueller investigation was highly flawed and corrupt, and needs to be looked into.

Trump might be highly pissed, but he's certainly not afraid of the democrat lynch mob's pathetic behavior.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.1.4  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.3    one week ago
he never obstructed the investigation

And that is your opinion. I disagree. After having read the report I can't see how anyone wouldn't see those 10 cases of obstruction as anything else. There was even an eleventh but it didn't have enough solid evidence to call it a "clear" case of obstruction, but was good enough for Judge Napolitano to point it out when he gave his opinion that the President did, in fact, obstruct justice.

 
 
 
cms5
4.1.5  cms5  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @4.1.4    one week ago

I read the report and can clearly see that the report was designed and written to show an impression of obstruction...not actual obstruction. Had there clearly been obstruction of justice, there is absolutely no doubt that Mueller would have suggested prosecution...along with actual prosecution of anyone who aided and abetted in that act.

Napolitano's opinion is just that...an opinion. We can file that with all of the other opinions of the Steele Dossier, conspiracy and collusion.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
4.1.6  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  cms5 @4.1.5    one week ago
Had there clearly been obstruction of justice, there is absolutely no doubt that Mueller would have suggested prosecution...along with actual prosecution of anyone who aided and abetted in that act.

If you have an investigator who is told that the prime suspect can't be indicted for a crime and they are tasked with just laying out the facts for someone else to decide how to proceed, you would get a report identical to the Mueller report. It would lay out all the details of the case. If it were a murder, the report would simply detail where the gun was found, what the blood spatter seemed to indicate, what prints were found if any, and a timeline of events as indicated by the evidence found. It wouldn't come to a conclusion of guilt or determine motive, it's just laying out the facts.

In the case of the Mueller report it's not just one or two obstructions accounts, it's at least 10. Maybe if it were just two it would be easier to start impeachment. But here we have 10 counts that almost get muddied just by their abundance. But each one has more evidence of obstruction than any of the claims of obstruction against President Clinton. 

Here are Clinton's which did lead to his impeachment in Congress:

  1. encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
  2. encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
  3. concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
  4. attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
  5. permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
  6. attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Curie
  7. making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses

Here's Trumps:

1. The President's Conduct Concerning the Investigation of Michael Flynn

  • Incoming National Security Adviser Flynn Discusses Sanctions on Russia with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak
  • President-Elect Trump is Briefed on the Intelligence Community's Assessment of Russian Interference in the Election and Congress Opens Election-Interference Investigations
  • Flynn Makes False Statements About his Communications with Kislyak to Incoming Administration Officials, the Media, and the FBI
  • DOJ Officials Notify the White House About Their Concerns About Flynn
  • McGahn has a Follow-Up Meeting About Flynn with Yates; President Trump has Dinner with FBI Director Comey
  • The Media Raises Questions About the President's Delay in Terminating Flynn
  • The President Attempts to Have K.T. McFarland Create a Witness Statement Denying that he Directed Flynn's Discussions with Kislyak

2. The President's Reaction to Public Confirmation of the FBI's Russia Investigation

  • Attorney General Sessions Recuses From the Russia Investigation
  • FBI Director Comey Publicly Confirms the Existence of the Russia Investigation in Testimony Before HPSCI
  • The President Asks Intelligence Community Leaders to Make Public Statements that he had No Connection to Russia
  • The President Asks Comey to "Lift the Cloud" Created by the Russia Investigation

3. Events Leading Up To and Surrounding the Termination of FBI Director Comey

  • Comey Testifies Before the Senate Judiciary Committee and Declines to Answer Questions About Whether the President is Under Investigation
  • The President decides to terminate Comey

4. The President's Efforts to Remove the Special Counsel

  • The Appointment of the Special Counsel and the President's Reaction
  • The President Asserts that the Special Counsel has Conflicts of Interest
  • The Press Reports that the President is Being Investigated for Obstruction of Justice and the President Directs the White House Counsel to Have the Special Counsel Removed

5. The President's Efforts to Curtail the Special Counsel's Investigation

  • The President Asks Corey Lewandowski to Deliver a Message to Sessions to Curtail the Special Counsel Investigation
  • The President Follows Up with Lewandowski
  • The President Publicly Criticizes Sessions in a New York Times Interview
  • The President Orders Priebus to Demand Sessions's Resignation

6. The President's Efforts to Prevent Disclosure of Emails About the June 9, 2016 Meeting Between Russians and Senior Campaign Officials

  • The President Learns About the Existence of Emails Concerning the June 9, 2016 Trump Tower Meeting
  • The President Directs Communications Staff Not to Publicly Disclose Information About the June 9 Meeting
  • The President Directs Trump Jr.'s Response to Press Inquiries About the June 9 Meeting
  • The Media Reports on the June 9, 2016 Meeting

7. The President's Further Efforts to Have the Attorney General Take Over the Investigation

  • The President Again Seeks to Have Sessions Reverse his Recusal
  • Additional Efforts to Have Sessions Unrecuse or Direct Investigations Covered by his Recusal

8. The President Orders McGahn to Deny that the President Tried to Fire the Special Counsel

  • The Press Reports that the President Tried to Fire the Special Counsel
  • The President Seeks to Have McGahn Dispute the Press Reports

9. The President's Conduct Towards Flynn, Manafort, [REDACTED DUE TO ONGOING MATTER]

  • Conduct Directed at Michael Flynn
  • Conduct Directed at Paul Manafort
  • Conduct Directed at [REDACTED]

10. The President's Conduct Involving Michael Cohen

  • Candidate Trump's Awareness of and Involvement in the Trump Tower Moscow Project
  • Cohen Determines to Adhere to a "Party Line" Distancing Candidate Trump from Russia
  • Cohen Submits False Statements to Congress Minimizing the Trump Tower Moscow Project in Accordance with the Party Line
  • The President Sends Messages of Support to Cohen
  • The President's Conduct After Cohen Began Cooperating with the Government

https://www.axios.com/mueller-report-trump-obstruction-of-justice-8280ecc0-6af6-4414-966b-1a3c5c0c38c8.html

 
 
 
Dulay
4.1.7  Dulay  replied to  cms5 @4.1.5    one week ago
We can file that with all of the other opinions of the Steele Dossier, conspiracy and collusion.

Including the unfounded one expressed in your comment. 

 
 
 
MrFrost
4.1.8  MrFrost  replied to  Greg Jones @4.1.3    one week ago
Trump might be highly pissed, but he's certainly not afraid of the democrat lynch mob's pathetic behavior.

Then why did he refuse to testify under oath? Oh yea, that "lynch" mob? Was run by republicans. 

 
 
 
Don Overton
4.2  seeder  Don Overton  replied to  cms5 @4    one week ago

To each his/her own little dream world

 
 
 
Dulay
4.3  Dulay  replied to  cms5 @4    one week ago
A candidate that is standing on a 'free' for all platform...a platform that gives the government all of the power over the People...still leaves voters with an unacceptable alternative.

So was it Clinton or the misunderstanding of the Democratic platform that elected Trump? 

I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of voters ever read the 2016 platform of either party. In fact, much of Trump's blathering before the election was contrary to the GOP platform. That's why many in the GOP labeled him as unqualified and a kook. 

 
 
 
cms5
4.3.1  cms5  replied to  Dulay @4.3    one week ago

Yes, we know the labels for Trump...and they continue on the left with great glee...the labels that is. Many read both platforms, lived 8 years under a Democratic Administration and really needed CHANGE.

 
 
 
Dulay
4.3.2  Dulay  replied to  cms5 @4.3.1    one week ago
Yes, we know the labels for Trump...and they continue on the left with great glee...the labels that is.

They continue on the right too...

Many read both platforms, lived 8 years under a Democratic Administration and really needed CHANGE.

'Many' isn't a majority.

The platforms of both parties changed in 2016. Turning their back on Ukrainians was one of the changes the GOP made. 

 
 
 
Jack_TX
5  Jack_TX    one week ago

Dear Alternet,

It's not that they love Trump.

It's that they hate you.

Trump just gives voice to that hatred.

 
 
 
Don Overton
5.1  seeder  Don Overton  replied to  Jack_TX @5    one week ago

512

 
 
 
Jack_TX
5.1.1  Jack_TX  replied to  Don Overton @5.1    one week ago

Aw Don.  (deleted)

Keep working on it.  You'll get there.

 
 
 
Ed-NavDoc
6  Ed-NavDoc    one week ago

Seems like people who routinely use vary large bold colored text and extra large emojis to try to get a point across are overcompensating...jrSmiley_86_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Don Overton
6.1  seeder  Don Overton  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @6    one week ago

Not really, some republicans  don't seem to be able to understand the written word without it being largely pointed out to them.

And you  can always use your rights and ignore those things you don't like, like some republicans always do

 
 
 
dennis smith
6.2  dennis smith  replied to  Ed-NavDoc @6    one week ago

Spot on comment Ed-NavyDoc

 
 
 
livefreeordie
7  livefreeordie    one week ago

While Trump has not gone nearly as far as I would like, his actions have far surpassed my expectations 

taxcuts

deregulation

originalist Justices and judges

pulling out of Paris accords

pipelines and expanding oil and gas

standing up to China

standing up to terrorist Iran

demolishing ISIS

US Embassy to Jerusalem

hardline stance against abortion

no love affair with homosexuals like Obama

bible studies and prayer in the White House

standing up to the deep state fbi, dea, atf, DOJ which are anti American totalitarian enforcers

those of us who support the president are thrilled by his actions compared to previous Democrat and Republican Presidents

lastly we look at what would likely occur if any of the Dems running should actually be president and have a Democrat Congress and it makes one shudder

 
 
 
Don Overton
7.1  seeder  Don Overton  replied to  livefreeordie @7    one week ago

tax cuts--https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/mar/05/sherrod-brown/do-70-benefits-trumps-tax-law-benefit-wealthiest-1/

deregulation--https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/us/trump-environment-regulation-rollbacks.html

originalist Justices and judges--https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/09/11/kavanaugh-scotus-confirmation-rich-barlow

pulling out of Paris accords-https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/promise/1379/cancel-paris-climate-agreement/

pipelines and expanding oil and gas-https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-04-10/trump-signs-executive-orders-to-quicken-pipeline-construction

standing up to China--https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/05/15/china-trade-war-trump-tariffs-give-him-2020-edge-column/3665148002/

standing up to terrorist Iran-https://www.axios.com/trump-china-trade-war-iran-tensions-30ac12c6-b370-412d-baed-d32e415c6c2f.html

demolishing ISIS-https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/27773/isis-isn-t-defeated-and-trump-doesn-t-have-a-plan-for-what-s-to-come

US Embassy to Jerusalem-https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44120428

l stance against abortion-https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/29/opinion/trump-wisconsin-abortion.html

no love affair with homosexuals like Obama--https://www.them.us/story/trump-administration-decriminalize-homosexuality

bible studies and prayer in the White House--https://www.newsweek.com/white-house-bible-group-led-pastor-anti-gay-anti-women-anti-catholic-881860

standing up to the deep state fbi, dea, atf, DOJ which are anti American totalitarian enforcers--

those of us who support the president are thrilled by his actions compared to previous Democrat and Republican Presidents--So?

 
 
 
lib50
7.2  lib50  replied to  livefreeordie @7    one week ago

The most offensive part of your reasons are the ones that pretend to be biblical values.  The current Trump Values are going to follow the evangelical/christian right forever.  The values being played out by the Trump presidency are the furthest from the true values as they could be, including the denial of free will and autonomy for women (which I know those people smugly (and wrongly)  think they hold the high ground on).  Not a care for humanity, for truth, for accountability, for love and forgiveness.  Nope, a lying, cheating, racist, amoral, narcissist is the one they choose.  And defend to the point they want him to be above the law. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
7.2.1  livefreeordie  replied to  lib50 @7.2    one week ago

Not one of those issues I posted violates the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. Forced collectivism and statism stand contrary to the teachings of Jesus who calls us to liberty and acting voluntarily in demonstrations of His love.

You leftists were accurately described over 165 years ago.

Frederic Bastiat correctly refuted this false accusation by you Socialists in his famous Treatise, The Law in 1850

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain"

 
 
 
lib50
7.2.2  lib50  replied to  livefreeordie @7.2.1    one week ago

You make Jesus sound like a politician.   So weird.  But not surprising. 

 
 
 
livefreeordie
7.2.3  livefreeordie  replied to  lib50 @7.2.2    one week ago

Nothing I stated implies a political view to Jesus. In fact Jesus our King and His Kingdom are not of this world.

Jesus is about liberty and my point is that the left is about enslavement to the State

 
 
 
Tessylo
7.3  Tessylo  replied to  livefreeordie @7    one week ago

Love affair with homosexuals?

jrSmiley_44_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
livefreeordie
7.3.1  livefreeordie  replied to  Tessylo @7.3    one week ago

Biden’s promotion of homosexual behavior as something to be celebrated and his support of homosexual marriage.

he’s clearly a reprobate to the teachings of Jesus

 
 
 
Dulay
7.3.2  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @7.3.1    one week ago
Biden’s promotion of homosexual behavior as something to be celebrated and his support of homosexual marriage.

Did he take out ads or something? 

he’s clearly a reprobate to the teachings of Jesus

How so. Isn't he just loving his neighbor and treating them as he wishes to be treated? 

 
 
 
Tessylo
7.3.3  Tessylo  replied to  livefreeordie @7.3.1    one week ago

You were talking about President Obama's love affair with homosexuals now you're talking about Biden?

'no love affair with homosexuals like Obama'

jrSmiley_44_smiley_image.gif

You're clearly a reprobate to the teachings of Jesus

 
 
 
Tessylo
7.3.4  Tessylo  replied to  Dulay @7.3.2    one week ago

I thought those were the teaching of Jesus - you know the Golden Rule, [deleted]

 
 
 
livefreeordie
7.3.5  livefreeordie  replied to  Dulay @7.3.2    one week ago

True followers of Jesus keep His words

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,  and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and  the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 14:23-24

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’  Matthew 7:21-23

Lawlessness in Greek text anomia = wickedness or unrighteousness 

“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are  dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.  I am the Root and the Offspring of David,  the Bright and Morning Star.”  Revelation 22:14-16 

The Greek word here for sexually immoral is porneia which for Jews and the Christian Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 includes ALL sex outside of the marriage of a man and a woman

“For it pleases the Holy Spirit and us that we not place any unnecessary burden on you, except for the following restrictions: Stay away from anything sacrificed to a pagan idol, from eating what is strangled or with any blood, and from any form of sexual immorality. You will be beautiful believers if you keep your souls from these things, and you will be true and faithful to our Lord Jesus. May God bless you!”

Acts 15:28-29 

The Bible says that sexual and all immorality is willful rebellion against God and not only will He punish eternally those who continue those lifestyles, He will equally punish those who condone or encourage such behavior 

“For this reason God allowed their shameful passions to control them. Their women have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion. And because they thought it was worthless to acknowledge God, God allowed their own immoral minds to control them. So they do these indecent things. Although they know God’s judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.”

Romans 1:26-28,32 

 
 
 
Dulay
7.3.6  Dulay  replied to  livefreeordie @7.3.5    one week ago

Very few actual words from Jesus in your post LFOD. 

NONE of them about homosexuals. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8  Dismayed Patriot    one week ago

Gullihillbility: noun - a tendency of folk who ridicule education to be easily persuaded that something is real or true; credulity, especially in things like the "deep state", the "gay mafia" or that Obama was gay or born in Kenya.

 
 
 
MUVA
8.1  MUVA  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8    one week ago

That definition also covers people that believe they are smart because CNN told them so. 

 
 
 
1stwarrior
8.2  1stwarrior  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @8    one week ago

320

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
8.2.1  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  1stwarrior @8.2    one week ago

Most Americans are a bit shocked when Trump seems to cluelessly walk through the impossible, like the road runner running through the newly painted tunnel, but when Wile E. tried to follow only slams his face against the rock. We all see the multiple counts of obstruction, the Russians hacking and helping Trump, Trumps obvious infatuation with Putin, more than 32 indictments, guilty pleas and convictions of those in Trumps campaign, and yet Trump walks right through it nose in the air, eyes closed stating "No collusion, no obstruction, and if you want any documents to verify it you can go suck my Acme anvil."

It certainly would be hilarious if this was happening in a country I couldn't care less about. Sadly, this is happening to the country I love so it's rather disconcerting to realize there are other citizens who apparently don't give a crap about the law, congressional oversight, ethics or morality and have decided to stab our nation in the back simply because they felt they weren't getting their way. What a bunch of ungrateful pieces of trash, who can do nothing but laugh at those of us who actually cared about this nation and its future.

 
 
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