Couples were asked to tell their race for a Virginia marriage license. Now they're suing.
The state's requirement to label race is "scientifically baseless" and "reflective of a racist past," says the federal lawsuit filed by three couples.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
The suit was filed Thursday in the Eastern District of Virginia and slams the state statute as "offensive," "unconstitutional" and "reflective of a racist past."
One of the couples, Sophie Rogers and her fiancé, Brandyn Churchill, went to the Rockbridge Circuit Court clerk's office to obtain a marriage license ahead of their Oct. 19 wedding and was informed that if they do not tell their race, they will not receive their license.
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disgusting.
I remember back in the early 70's when my wife and I got married in SE Arizona, I was asked that same question. I refused to answer other than human being. The county clerk looked at it, smiled, and said "Looks good to me. Dumb ass question anyway.". We got our license.
Isn't octoroon 1/8th black, quadroon 1/4th black, and mulatto 1/2 black?
before this seed, I never even knew or heard the words octoroon or or quadroon before. neither has my spell check. I guess I missed the cut on being a racist goober that thinks the civil war was all about northern aggression. >whew!!!<
I believe that's correct.
I wasn't aware that it's still the 1850's.
Or even the 1950s.
I had no idea they still used such archaic and offensive names for those of mixed heritage.
This is Virginia after all.
I don't think I can think of anything where you are required to declare your race. Even on the census, I don't think it's required.
Nor should it be.
The census does require people to declare race.
Thanks, Dulay. I can understand it for the census. But not for a marriage license.
I'm aware that they ask it, but respondents are free to answer in any way they choose and there is zero accountability for the choices they make. Technically, you can be fined for not filling out the form completely or at all, but prosecutions are rare and convictions difficult. In any event, you aren't going to be denied a license for anything if you decline to state your race.
that's why it's so important for sane people to change their voter registration to republican or independent after voting in the primaries. then get one of those DNA tests done before the census forms are mailed, since you can legally self identify as any ethnicity that shows up on it. both changes are crucial to thwart further gerrymandering attempts in the future.
I think that’s ridiculous considering they do not ask party affiliation on the census.
Can these estimates tell me who an individual voted for or with which party they are affiliated?
No, the CPS Voting and Registration Supplement does not ask any questions of a partisan nature.
If you’d like to educate yourself on what data is collected regarding voting and registration see the tables in the link.
What evidence do you have that it's any different for the marriage license question?
Well since just about every single conservative on here and elsewhere thinks that Latino immigrants will vote Democratic, it sure looks like they believe that party affiliation is simple to estimate.
Different in what way? I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't think I was trying to make any claims, so I don't know why you're asking for evidence.
Let me see if I can state it in a way that even you can understand.
You state that for the census 'respondents are free to answer in any way they choose and there is zero accountability for the choices they make.'
Do you have any evidence that respondents to the marriage license race question are held accountable in any way for the choices they make?
Perhaps an example would help.
For example, would there be any accountability for a Caucasian man checking the African American box?
I was referring to the central point of the story, which is that they were going to be denied a marriage license if they did not disclose their race.
On the census, you can identify as any race or combination of races you like. As far as I know, no one is following up on the answers. I couldn't say how much Virginia scrutinizes the answers people give and I wasn't making any claims about their enforcement beyond what the story gives us.
The main difference that is obvious is that the census is not going to deny anyone a license for anything.
I never said they did. however, that info is available on voter registration rolls. that way major league asshats don't waste postage on mailing their paranoid propaganda to people with an IQ over 60 prior to election day. voter registration rolls can be purchased for mass mailings and telemarketing.
I don't. I know too many.
Though you've avoided directly answering my question, I'll take that as a no.
I'm not avoiding anything and I answered the best I could. Please refrain from trying to troll me.
Replying to your comment with my own isn't trolling Tacos!.
Please refrain from accusing me of shit that you didn't see fit to flag.
Anytime someone is asked their race, there is only one answer....human.
Exactly. And it is a question that should not need to be asked.
Naaaah. C'mon now. We can be much more creative than that.
The best defense is a good offense, and that's especially true against nosiness and stupidity.
If somebody asks your race in a situation where it is none of their damn business and you don't want to give it to them, tell them you're Martian.
Alternatively, give them any one of a myriad of cool fictional races. You could be Amazonian (Wonder Woman), you could be Gallifreyan (Doctor Who), or you could be Kryptonian (Superman). You could be Viking. You could be Rohirrim or Gondorian. You could be Hufflepuffian.
You could say your race was "Aggie", "Sooner", "Longhorn", "Buckeye", "Gator" or "Wolverine". Or....if you wanted to condemn yourself and your family to eternal shame, you could list your race as a filthy disgusting utterly reprehensible "Liverpool Supporter".
Seriously, the possibilities are endless.
I'm a Westerosi ,then
Now we're cookin' with gas.......
I challenge anybody to prove you're not.
There is only reason to ask this question and I don't think I need to say what that reason is.
Only one race.
The human one.
Not hard, Virginia Government , not difficult at all.
P&AB to All in Our Human Race.
Enoch.
I'm so shocked that there are parts of Virgina that are so backwards. I don't know what I would have done is someone has asked me for my race on a marriage licence. Maybe crossed it out and write MYOB.
They were told they wouldn't get their license without the information. If they've already reserved a venue, hired caterers, and so forth, not having a valid marriage license could throw a wrench in the whole works.
I'd have thought Virginia would have learned from Loving vs. Virginia.
It's not just Virginia. Seems to be most if not all of the Southern states that are backwards in some way or another.
What will they ask for next: What's your sexual orientation? Religious preference?
To be fair, there are some northern states that ask about race, too.
Really? I wasn't aware. Which ones?
Interesting.
Wow, kind of speechless. And really shocked about New Hampshire whose state motto is "Live free or die". Apparently only if you the right color.
Is it just me, or does the guy in the picture look a little like Wayne Brady?
They should have just wrote: Human (race), as its the only race of people on the planet!
Since the question has been deemed "unconstitutional" on the federal level, yet still exist on many a document - wtcl🐔ck!
Ethnicity is another biological/genealogical matter, yet that's not the reason for the question or the violation Constitutionally 😉 speaking
either!
Why is it so terrible to document information about a couple? I imagine the state wants to verify on as many different levels as possible they have the right couple in their system. Are they ashamed to say they are black? Also if race doesn't exist, make sure to let your local police investigators and attorneys and judges know this so they stop using that as a method to solve crimes and convict criminals.
There might be some social use to knowing the crime rate of different races, people can then choose if they like to avoid areas heavily populated by a higher crime group.
I dont see any social purpose to knowing the races of people who are getting married. And telling them they cant get married if the race reporting requirement is not met.
Race has also been very helpful in identifying communties suffering from academic under achievement.
I dont think you need marriage records for that.
The number of things you could record about someone is probably infinite, but there should be a reason for it. I can't think of a reason the state needs to know what race someone is before they license their marriage.
Maybe they want the information for databases they use for record keeping and statistics. I dont see why something as obvious as race shouldn't be recorded. Were they refused service based upon their reply?
The government will definitely have to say why they want the information in court. But your point just invites the questions: Record keeping for what? Statistics of what? Again, like I said before, you can keep records on an infinite number of things, but why is that important for marriage licenses?
That's not how these things work. You could just as easily ask why shouldn't they also record their pant sizes or favorite sports teams? When challenged, government needs to supply a reason. Even a bad reason will often suffice, but "we just want to know" isn't going to be good enough. It's not up to citizens to first establish a reason why they don't want to disclose it unless the government can first establish a rational basis for the question. The burden at this point is on the government.
They were told they couldn't have a marriage license if they didn't answer. I see no reason to prevent someone from marrying over that.
To be fair, this is probably not some nefarious racist oppressive situation. This has probably just been on the form since 1950 and nobody's ever thought about it, so it never changed. Government employees are not paid to be strategic visionaries.
Also to be fair, it should be changed, and well done these couples for pressing the issue in a meaningful, powerful and adult manner.
To all of my leftist friends....(not liberals, who are reasonable, but leftists, who are not)....are you watching?? This is how you affect positive change. No protest, no destruction of other people's stuff, no taking a knee pouting and demanding somebody else fix a problem you can and should handle yourself.
You take an issue that most people agree on anyway, and get things fixed without making it a ridiculously divisive mound of bullshit that everybody fights about.
We need more of this kind of thing.