Amber Guyger Guilty of Murder!

  
By:  sister-mary-agnes-ample-bottom  •  3 weeks ago  •  86 comments

Amber Guyger Guilty of Murder!

Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger was just convicted of Murder.  More details coming.

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Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    3 weeks ago

The judge gave the jury 3 choices:  Murder, manslaughter, not guilty.  The jury chose guilty.

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
1.1  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    3 weeks ago

This was really a strange case. I would have probably put her away for 15 years on a manslaughter charge. I don't think it was premeditated murder.

Then again I'm not sure i know all the details of the case like the jury probably now does. We will learn more about this case in the coming weeks.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
1.1.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @1.1    3 weeks ago
I would have probably put her away for 15 years on a manslaughter charge. I don't think it was premeditated murder.

I agree with you.  There are jaws dropping all over DFW right now.

When this first happened, I thought she was full of baloney about entering the wrong apartment.  Trust me, my fat ass knows when I'm on the second landing or the third landing.  I'm thinking boyfriend problems, neighbor problems, etc.  Then I learned last week that she parked on the wrong floor of the parking garage.  That made more sense.  When the lead investigator admitted on the stand that he did the exact same thing when arriving on-scene, I thought 'manslaughter'.

This is pretty big, at least around here.

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
1.1.2  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.1    3 weeks ago

I suspect politics had a bit to do with the sentence.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
1.1.3  XDm9mm  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.1    3 weeks ago
Trust me, my fat ass knows when I'm on the second landing or the third landing.

Before saying that, you need to remember that she was coming off her reportedly 4th 12+ hour shift.  Having worked those types of tours myself, I can attest to the fact that you're not functioning on all cylinders.   Hell, after coming home from one of those shifts I actually pulled into the wrong driveway and was pissed that my damn garage door wasn't opening!!   Then I noticed it was.....   two houses further down the street!!  Doooooohhhhhhhh.

 
 
 
Kathleen
1.1.4  Kathleen  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @1.1    3 weeks ago

I totally agree with your statement.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
1.1.5  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @1.1.2    3 weeks ago
I suspect politics had a bit to do with the sentence.

How so?

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
1.1.6  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  XDm9mm @1.1.3    3 weeks ago
Before saying that, you need to remember that she was coming off her reportedly 4th 12+ hour shift.

That was only my initial thought.  I knew little about the case due to a gag order imposed by the judge.  When I learned the details last week, especially the parts about the parking garage and the number of hours she worked, I was certain she would never be convicted of murder.

Didn't know you were a police officer.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
1.1.7  XDm9mm  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.6    3 weeks ago
Didn't know you were a police officer.

My LEO days were short.  I was an MP while active duty '69-'71.  Berlin Brigade.

My ridiculous 12 hour shifts were when I was a staff officer with the government.  Four days of 12 hours, four days off,  then four nights of 12 hours.  The 'day' tours were pretty good.  First, I was against traffic both ways.  I was headed out while everyone else was headed into the DC metro area.  And it allowed a normal circadian cycle. The nights were brutal.  With traffic both ways which made the 45 minute drive into an hour and a half or two hour ordeal each way.  Then trying to sleep during the day was essentially impossible.

Besides the abysmal money as a fed employee, the hours were another factor in my quitting and going contractor.  Then what do I do?  Go OCONUS and work 10, 12, 16 hour days seven days a week for two or three months then come home and kick back for two or three months getting paid 'comp time'.  But where I went there wasn't much to do other than work or sleep.   T-walls and HESCO barriers were the usual perimeter fencing and smart people didn't venture outside alone.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
1.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.1    3 weeks ago
I thought she was full of baloney about entering the wrong apartment

<raises hand>

I've tried to open the door of the wrong hotel room because I thought I was on my floor. I've also tried to get into other people's cars.

My question is...what was her motive for killing him?

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
1.1.9  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.1.8    3 weeks ago
My question is...what was her motive for killing him?

She thought she was opening her own door.  His door was slightly ajar, which she noticed when she put her keys in the lock.  She was immediately alarmed, pushed the door open, saw Mr. Jean, and ordered him to show his hands.  It was dark with just the light from his television illuminating the room.  When he moved toward her, she shot him twice in the chest.  When she rushed into the apartment she realized it wasn't hers, and she began CPR immediately.  

I can't even begin to imagine what was going through both of their minds at the instant she pulled the trigger. 

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
1.1.10  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1.1.9    3 weeks ago

I think murder was too harsh, but then we aren't privy to all the evidence the jury heard

 
 
 
XDm9mm
1.1.11  XDm9mm  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.1.8    3 weeks ago
My question is...what was her motive for killing him?

Apparently that's why the talking heads on the tube believe the "murder" conviction will either be reduced or overturned entirely.  No "motive" was developed nor presented for her killing the man.  

However, her actions after the shoot are what those same talking heads feel will be the basis for a manslaughter conviction.

 
 
 
Split Personality
1.1.12  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.1.10    3 weeks ago

There will be appeals and most likely a retrial

 
 
 
†hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh
1.1.13  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @1.1.5    3 weeks ago

Because I said so.....

 
 
 
MrFrost
1.1.14  MrFrost  replied to  †hε pε⊕pレε'š ƒïšh @1.1.2    3 weeks ago

I suspect politics had a bit to do with the sentence.

Looks to me like it has more to do with the law. Do you think she is innocent? 

 
 
 
Split Personality
1.1.15  Split Personality  replied to  Trout Giggles @1.1.10    3 weeks ago

How about text messages from her phone to other white officers?

I suspect this is why they fired her so quickly.

 

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-cop-murdered-black-man-143208798.html

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
1.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    3 weeks ago

*of murder*

oops.

 
 
 
Tessylo
1.3  Tessylo  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @1    3 weeks ago

U.S.

Texas Cop Who Murdered Black Man in His Home Admitted She's Racist in Text Messages

5f46f080-ca05-11e5-8ddc-41e33962f2e4_d4d   Chris Harris, People   4 hours ago  
 
After convicting Amber Guyger of the murder of Botham Jean , Texas jurors were presented with racist and violent text and social media messages composed by the former Dallas police officer before the fatal shooting.

Guyger, 31, who is white, faces 99 years behind bars as the conviction phase of her trial resumes on Wednesday.

She was found guilty on Wednesday of   killing her 26-year-old neighbor   on another floor, who is black, inside his own apartment, claiming she mistook him for someone burglarizing her own home.

According to WFAA , jurors heard prosecutors present text messages from Jan. 15, 2018, as Dallas officers were assigned to the Martin Luther King Jr. parade.

“When does this end lol,” read a text to Guyger, to which she responded, “When MLK is dead… oh wait…”

As the texted conversation turned to the parade attendees, WFAA reports Guyger texted, “Just push them… or spray your pepper spray in that general area.”

The Washington Post   reports  that, in another text exchange dated Sept. 4, 2018, someone reached out to Guyger about adopting a German Shepherd.

RELATED:   Murder Trial Begins for Off-Duty Cop Who Shot, Killed Man Inside His Apartment

“Although she may be racist,” the dog’s owner messaged Guyger.

“It’s okay,” Guyger replied. “I’m the same.”

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In the same group text thread, she wrote, “I hate everything and everyone but y’all,” according to   the Post .

The state also shared text messages sent between Guyger and her ex-lover and police partner, Officer Martin Rivera, from March 9, 2018, in which they seem to disparage black officers.

“Damn I was at this area with 5 different black officers!!!,” she wrote to him,   according to   the Dallas Morning News . “Not racist but damn,” he responded.

RELATED:   Cop Who Killed Neighbor in His Home Was Allegedly Distracted by Sexually Explicit Calls, Texts

“Not racist but just have a different way of working and it shows,” she replied.

Social media posts made by Guyger, which prosecutors presented to jurors Wednesday, were violent in nature.

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One image she shared shows a military sniper, along with text that reads: “Stay low, go fast; kill first, die last; one shot, one kill; no luck, all skill.”

In another post, Guyger wrote: “I wear all black to remind you not to mess with me, because I’m already dressed for your funeral.”

She further commented she had a gun, shovel and gloves ready to go, according to the reports.

Additionally, Guyger commented, “People are so ungrateful,” on a post featuring a cartoon character with the text: “No one ever thanks me for having the patience not to kill them.”

RELATED:   Tx. Cop Convicted of Murder for Shooting Neighbor in His Home, Claiming She Thought He Was Burglar

Also on Wednesday, Jean’s mother, Allison Jean, shared the pain she’s endured since her businessman son’s killing.

“My life has not been the same,” his mother told jurors. “It’s been a roller coaster. I can’t sleep. I can’t eat.”

Guyger told jurors during her testimony at trial she mistakenly walked into Jean’s apartment on Sept. 6, 2018, and believed it was her own apartment.

• Want to keep up with the latest crime coverage?   Click here   to get breaking crime news, ongoing trial coverage and details of intriguing unsolved cases in the True Crime Newsletter.

“I was scared whoever was inside of my apartment was going to kill me, and I’m sorry,” Guyger testified last Friday while sobbing. “I have to live with that every single day.”

Jurors were given the option of finding Guyger guilty of manslaughter, a lesser conviction.

It was not immediately clear Wednesday if Guyger intends to appeal her conviction.

 
 
 
cjfrommn
1.3.1  cjfrommn  replied to  Tessylo @1.3    3 weeks ago

as  i noted below, the real amber has been exposed! 

 
 
 
lady in black
2  lady in black    3 weeks ago

Good!

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
2.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  lady in black @2    3 weeks ago

I was hoping for a conviction, but not in a million years would I have expected a murder conviction.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
2.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.1    3 weeks ago

I totally agree, sister.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
2.1.2  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @2.1    3 weeks ago

Same.  I expected manslaughter.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
3  Trout Giggles    3 weeks ago

I'm surprised

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4  XDm9mm    3 weeks ago

While I'm usually the first to give a LEO the benefit of the doubt, I have to admit that after hearing some of the prosecution 'evidence', I believe a finding of "not guilty" was an impossibility.

However, having said that, I also believe the guilty of murder is overcharged and will very likely be reduced on appeal to manslaughter.  Per a couple of talking heads on the tube, there was no finding of intent or premeditation.

Given time, it will continue to play out in the court, she will spend X number of years in prison and not life as the murder charge would likely have produced.  

Amber, you have joined the ranks of the lowlife scumbag thugs of America.  Your problem is they will not welcome you kindly given your career history.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
4.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  XDm9mm @4    3 weeks ago
I also believe the guilty of murder is overcharged and will very likely be reduced on appeal to manslaughter.

I agree.  There is some wiggle room.  In the interim, I hope correction officers keep an eye on her, if you catch my meaning.  She just might take the easy way out.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
4.1.1  XDm9mm  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @4.1    3 weeks ago
In the interim, I hope correction officers keep an eye on her, if you catch my meaning. 

I'm sure they will.  And it's not for the reason you anticipate below.  People that wore the blue of a cop generally don't fare well with those that they and others put behind bars.

She just might take the easy way out.

Cowards do that.   Her problem is going to be the ubiquitous prison shank between the ribs.  If the cut doesn't do you in, the sepsis from the blade being coated in shit will.

 
 
 
devangelical
4.1.2  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @4.1    3 weeks ago

for being a cop she'll get the minimum sentence and be put in protective custody where she can entertain the prison staff for special privileges. 

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
4.1.3  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  XDm9mm @4.1.1    3 weeks ago
Her problem is going to be the ubiquitous prison shank between the ribs.  If the cut doesn't do you in, the sepsis from the blade being coated in shit will.

I've heard that.  I'm a multi-year Lockup addict.  I guess I'm thinking along the lines of her knowing what might be coming and chosing to have control over her own future, especially if future appeals are denied.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
5  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

I would assume there have been many people convicted of murder who didnt mean for the person they shot to die. 

She will probably get the low end of sentencing guidelines for that level of the crime. 

 
 
 
cjfrommn
6  cjfrommn    3 weeks ago

Well if the officer up here in Mpls was convicted of it, then surely this officer would be found guilty of murder. I would anticipate and would not object to her being sentenced on the low end of the guidelines. 

I also agree that the FOG of on duty work can set you up for some very "keep to yourself" moments. But i also believe that officers also must be more diligent in remembering they do have the ability to do things that can have dangerous results. Thus realizing the fog and fighting it does matter.

Hopefully the administrative component of this police dept will address this over worked officers issue. And maybe the police union has or will provide suggestions based on getting input from the rank and file. 

sadly alot of people are still hurting from this incident. 

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
7  Dismayed Patriot    3 weeks ago

"Guyger’s lawyers have said the 31-year-old, who was fired from the police force shortly after she killed Jean, was exhausted and scared when she heard someone inside the unit she thought was her own that night. She opened the door, saw a “silhouette figure” in the dark apartment and feared for her life, they said. She said she asked to see his hands, but he just walked toward her. She fired two shots."

Prosecutors "said a reasonable person would have noticed the illuminated apartment numbers that read 1478, rather than 1378, and would have seen Jean’s red doormat. She wasn’t paying attention, prosecutors said, because too caught up in a sexually explicit conversation she was having with her partner on the police force.

“I mean, my God,” said Jason Fine, the Dallas County Assistant District Attorney. “This is crazy.”

Prosecutors also questioned why Guyger even opened the door when she suspected someone was inside, arguing that police training teaches officers confronting a burglar to take cover and call for backup.

“For Amber Guyger, Mr. Jean was dead before that door ever opened,” said Jason Hermus, the lead prosecutor."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/01/amber-guyger-police-officer-who-shot-man-death-his-apartment-found-guilty-murder/

I think the reason they didn't rule manslaughter was the fact that as an officer she should have know how to handle that situation properly, even after a 12 hr shift, which was not to burst in and confront the supposed intruder and then fire on a "silhouette figure" in the dark without seeing any weapon or anything that could have been viewed as putting her life in immediate danger, even if she truly thought it was her apartment. The defense tried to use the "castle doctrine" to claim she had the right to shoot first and ask questions later. But the jury didn't see it as her being intruded upon and standing her ground, it was she who was the intruder after admitting she thought she heard someone in the apartment before opening the door and entering which means she had plenty of time to call for backup without any threat to her person while standing in the hallway. She jumped to conclusions, jumped into action and shot at a silhouette without identifying any actual threat. She can claim she was just tired, but the fact is she did not follow the procedure and training she had received and escalated an unnecessary confrontation that led to the death of a man simply walking through his own apartment.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
7.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @7    3 weeks ago
She can claim she was just tired, but the fact is she did not follow the procedure and training she had received and escalated an unnecessary confrontation that led to the death of a man simply walking through his own apartment.

And what's worse is that by all accounts, Mr. Jean was a really great guy.  I don't know how one can live with themselves after something like this.

 
 
 
Freefaller
7.1.1  Freefaller  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @7.1    3 weeks ago
I don't know how one can live with themselves after something like this.

Simple, just don't accept responsibility for your actions then nothing can be your fault

 
 
 
bbl-1
8  bbl-1    3 weeks ago

Still can't grasp why and how Amber Guyger did't immediately realize she was NOT in her own apartment.  Just seems odd to me.

 
 
 
Tessylo
8.1  Tessylo  replied to  bbl-1 @8    3 weeks ago

The whole thing stinks to high heaven to me.  

An unarmed man killed in his own apartment.

 
 
 
bbl-1
8.1.1  bbl-1  replied to  Tessylo @8.1    3 weeks ago

Yeah.  Well, it is done.  Time for the appeals and the Sovereign Nation folk to...……...do what ever it is they do.

Guyger took one life, destroyed her own and caused heartache and misery to the victim's family, her own family and the friends of all those involved.  This is sad and is becoming too typical of life in America.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9  Tacos!    3 weeks ago

It's a hard case because it seems like she made an honest mistake. However, is it the kind of mistake that we can tolerate as a society? Does the victim's family care that it was a mistake? Should they have to accept this?

As to the charge, is it murder or manslaughter?

Very broadly, Murder is an unlawful killing with malice aforethought. That simply means "did she intend to kill someone?" The answer is pretty straightforward. Yes, she did. I'm not saying she she set out that day planning to murder someone. But at that moment, she did mean to pull her gun and shoot the person in front of her.

If it were done in the heat of passion, that would be voluntary manslaughter. If it were some kind of an accident, that would be involuntary manslaughter. That leaves us with murder.

So then the question is, does she have some excuse, like she was shooting in self-defense or defense of others or her home. She says she was, and I suspect the jury even believed that she believed that.

The big question is was it reasonable for her to believe she was defending herself or her home? Is it reasonable that she was walking on floors that she should have noticed were different than the usual floors she walks on to reach her apartment? Is it reasonable that she never noticed she wasn't in her own home? 

At some point we have to draw a line between an honest and reasonable mistake and insisting that people with guns use their heads and take in the situation around them. She wasn't beamed - Star Trek style - into someone else's apartment. She had to walk there. She had ample opportunity to take in her surroundings. Therefore, she has no excuse.

It's a horrible tragedy.

 
 
 
bbl-1
9.1  bbl-1  replied to  Tacos! @9    3 weeks ago

"Honest mistake?"  How covering that is, or would cowering be a better fit?  Ah well, "Stormy who" is an honest mistake too, right?

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  bbl-1 @9.1    3 weeks ago

You clearly didn't read the whole comment. Try again.

 
 
 
Ronin2
9.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  bbl-1 @9.1    3 weeks ago

When in doubt, and can't make a valid argument- Trump it.

 
 
 
bbl-1
9.1.3  bbl-1  replied to  Ronin2 @9.1.2    3 weeks ago

Exactly.  "Trump it" and the Trump will deliver.

 
 
 
Dismayed Patriot
9.2  Dismayed Patriot  replied to  Tacos! @9    3 weeks ago
It's a hard case because it seems like she made an honest mistake. However, is it the kind of mistake that we can tolerate as a society?

If she had simply followed protocol this "honest mistake" would have resulted in units responding to her call as she waited for back up in the hallway, and perhaps, as she noticed the very different front door mat and different glowing apartment number, a good laugh for those responding as they realized she was on the wrong floor. Instead, she took it upon herself to open the door, charge in gun drawn, and fire at a silhouetted figure, admitting she was shooting to kill.

It's a sad outcome that should never have happened. If she had chosen to follow the rules this poor man would be alive and may have even laughed along with her when backup arrived and confirmed he was in his own apartment doing nothing wrong.

 
 
 
Tessylo
9.2.1  Tessylo  replied to  Dismayed Patriot @9.2    3 weeks ago

Honest mistake my ass.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
9.3  XDm9mm  replied to  Tacos! @9    3 weeks ago
The answer is pretty straightforward. Yes, she did. I'm not saying she she set out that day planning to murder someone. But at that moment, she did mean to pull her gun and shoot the person in front of her.

I have to disagree with that sentiment.  People are taught to shoot to stop the threat.  NOT to kill the person/people that are the target.  If police were taught to shoot to kill, every police shooting would result in a murder conviction as that would be the basis for a conviction....  their training.

About the only people that shoot to kill are gang bangers and lowlife scumbag thugs.

 
 
 
Tacos!
9.3.1  Tacos!  replied to  XDm9mm @9.3    3 weeks ago
People are taught to shoot to stop the threat.  NOT to kill the person/people that are the target.

I don't think that's a reasonable characterization of what goes on when a person shoots at another person. That's how people start thinking that life is like "Lethal Weapon" and cops can choose to shoot a guy in the leg so they can question him. Shooting someone is trying to kill them.

every police shooting would result in a murder conviction as that would be the basis for a conviction....  their training.

If police are doing their job and following procedure, their use of deadly force is excused under the law. That's why every shooting doesn't result in a murder conviction.

Take an on-duty cop and have him enter a home he has no right to be in and shoot the occupant. I think he absolutely would be charged and convicted of murder.

About the only people that shoot to kill are gang bangers and lowlife scumbag thugs.

Everyone who is shooting has an excellent chance of killing their target. Any other expectation is not reasonable.

 
 
 
XDm9mm
9.3.2  XDm9mm  replied to  Tacos! @9.3.1    3 weeks ago
People are taught to shoot to stop the threat.  NOT to kill the person/people that are the target.
I don't think that's a reasonable characterization of what goes on when a person shoots at another person. That's how people start thinking that life is like "Lethal Weapon" and cops can choose to shoot a guy in the leg so they can question him. Shooting someone is trying to kill them.

Quite the contrary.   Everyone that is taught shooting skills is taught to shoot to stop the threat.  Teaching otherwise would actually make any and all instructors essentially co-defendants in any and all cases where the shooter was taught those skills.   Everyone is simply taught to shoot 'center mass' (the torso area from the neck down to the waist) as that provides the largest possible target area and the largest possibility of hitting the target to stop the threat.  In fact, I've had 'students' that indicated they wanted to "kill the scumbags" when I canvassed LTC classes why they wanted to get a license.  Those "students" were refunded their money and told to leave the course room.

every police shooting would result in a murder conviction as that would be the basis for a conviction....  their training.
If police are doing their job and following procedure, their use of deadly force is excused under the law. That's why every shooting doesn't result in a murder conviction.

That's due to the fact that 1- they were following procedure and 2- were NOT trained that all shootings were to result in killing the target.  Had those police been "trained" to shoot to kill, even following procedures would not protect them.  They ARE instructed that shooting someone MIGHT result in that persons death, but that is NOT//NOT why nor their intention of shooting.

Take an on-duty cop and have him enter a home he has no right to be in and shoot the occupant. I think he absolutely would be charged and convicted of murder.

Think again.   It's happened before and the police walked.  Of course, those times were due to abject stupidity on the part of the LEO going to the wrong address, or the homes occupant being the victim of some lowlife scumbag thug "swatting" them.

About the only people that shoot to kill are gang bangers and lowlife scumbag thugs.
Everyone who is shooting has an excellent chance of killing their target. Any other expectation is not reasonable.

A 'chance' of killing someone is quite the difference of being trained to shoot to kill.   Personally, I always shoot center mass when at the range.  I'm not looking to hit the center "X" of the target for a score....  I leave that to competitive shooters.  So anywhere within that center mass (the torso area noted above) is a good shot.  Most places within that center mass area are in fact not kill shots, and more often than not are sufficient to stop the threat.  Of course without medical treatment it is possible to bleed out, or die from shock, but the shot itself, unless very well placed in the heart will not kill the target.

Now, having said all of that, my personal belief is that while I do not shoot to intentionally kill the threat to my loved ones or myself, if the antagonist dies as a result of my defensive use of a gun, that is simply the end result of their threatening actions towards my loved ones or me.  Nothing more.

 
 
 
MrFrost
9.4  MrFrost  replied to  Tacos! @9    3 weeks ago
It's a hard case because it seems like she made an honest mistake. However, is it the kind of mistake that we can tolerate as a society? Does the victim's family care that it was a mistake? Should they have to accept this?

I disagree. I have been pretty drunk in my time, but if I had to climb a set of stairs, when my apartment is on the first floor, I think I would have noticed..... I just don't buy it... 

Also, she was a cop. All she had to do was retreat to her car, call for backup and there would have been swarms of cops there in under two minutes. But she didn't. Why not? 

She had a first aid kit, but it wasn't even opened? After she shot the guy, she offered no first aid? Why not? 

Sorry, but nothing in her story makes any sense and at the end of the day? We have a dead guy that was guilty of nothing more than sitting on his couch watching tv. Murder? Damn right it was. 

 
 
 
It Is ME
10  It Is ME    3 weeks ago

Sometimes....you're just not safe in your own home.

I don't care how tired she may say she was, this just wasn't right at all.

Sentence was a bit much, but not by much.

Makes me wonder about her "Street Smarts" though ! 

 
 
 
Tacos!
10.1  Tacos!  replied to  It Is ME @10    3 weeks ago
Sentence was a bit much, but not by much.

I don't think she's actually been sentenced yet. That's usually a separate proceeding. Minimum in Texas is 20 years, I think.

 
 
 
It Is ME
10.1.1  It Is ME  replied to  Tacos! @10.1    3 weeks ago

aaaahhhhh !

I thought they were going for the max. !

 
 
 
Split Personality
10.1.2  Split Personality  replied to  Tacos! @10.1    3 weeks ago

The sentencing phase is live on TV right now, at least in Dallas.

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
10.1.3  Trout Giggles  replied to  Split Personality @10.1.2    3 weeks ago

They're already in the sentencing phase??? Wow...that was fast

 
 
 
Split Personality
10.1.4  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @10.1.2    3 weeks ago

This appears to be the live feed.

Botham's mother is testifying and going through family photos at the moment.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/watch-live-amber-guyger-sentenced-after-being-found-guilty-of-murdering-neighbor-70350405637

A reporter earlier said the range of sentencing was from 5 to 99 years.

 
 
 
Split Personality
10.1.5  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @10.1.4    3 weeks ago

The feed is about 30 seconds behind the "live" TV feed on channel 5

 
 
 
Tacos!
10.1.6  Tacos!  replied to  Split Personality @10.1.4    3 weeks ago
A reporter earlier said the range of sentencing was from 5 to 99 years.

That's correct. I don't know where I got 20. Per the Texas Penal Code:

Sec. 12.32. FIRST DEGREE FELONY PUNISHMENT. (a) An individual adjudged guilty of a felony of the first degree shall be punished by imprisonment in the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for life or for any term of not more than 99 years or less than 5 years.
 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
10.1.7  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Split Personality @10.1.2    3 weeks ago

Sentencing was supposed to be tomorrow.

And let me just say right now that seeing Benjamin freaking Crump flapping his yap makes me sick.  

 
 
 
Trout Giggles
10.1.8  Trout Giggles  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @10.1.7    3 weeks ago

Me, too. This is not the same thing as Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin at all.

 
 
 
MrFrost
10.2  MrFrost  replied to  It Is ME @10    3 weeks ago

Damnit... Now I have to vote you up because I agree..

 
 
 
It Is ME
10.2.1  It Is ME  replied to  MrFrost @10.2    3 weeks ago
Damnit... Now I have to vote you up because I agree..

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

Sorry....didn't mean to put you in that kind of predicament ! jrSmiley_89_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Ender
11  Ender    3 weeks ago

Quick story, Took my Aunt to the post office so she could empty out her PO box. Hadn't checked it in a while. Waiting in the car, watched her walk out with a big stack of mail in her hands. She walked up to the car next to us, opened the passenger door, dropped the mail on the floor, got in and shut the door. Talking the whole time. We just looked at the guy laughing and he looked at us like, what the hell?

She finally looked at the driver and was shocked to see a stranger there. She then looked over and saw us laughing our asses off. He took it well and had a little laugh. Definitely a story to tell his family when he got home, some crazy woman getting into his car, throwing mail on the floor and talking nonstop to him.

Anyway, I can easily see a mistake being made. My problem is, being off duty, she should not have barged in and started shooting. Ridiculous. It was like all her training went out the window.

Should have slapped her with manslaughter 5 to 10.

 
 
 
Kathleen
12  Kathleen    3 weeks ago

I was not in the courtroom to hear all the facts. From only what I have heard on the outside, I was thinking more of manslaughter with 10 to 15 years.

We have to remember an innocent life has been taken away, but I didn’t think she planned for this terrible thing to happen.

Thats what I think so far not knowing all the facts.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
13  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    3 weeks ago

More details:

A Texas jury rejected former Dallas police officer Amber Guyger's self-defense claims and convicted her of murder on Tuesday in the fatal 2018 shooting of an innocent man eating ice cream in his own home after mistaking his apartment for her own

The 12-member jury reached its verdict after deliberating for less than two days. Guyger stood as Dallas County District Court Judge Tammy Kemp read the decision. 

"We the jury unanimously find the defendant Amber Guyger guilty of murder as charged in the indictment," Kemp read. 

The family members of Botham Jean, the neighbor Guyger shot to death on Sept. 6, 2018, burst into tears as the jury granted them a measure of justice. Jean's mother, Allison Jean, held her head back and stared at the ceiling, raising her hands, thankful that justice for her son had been served.

The 31-year-old Guyger, who was fired from the Dallas Police Department days after the shooting, faces a prison sentence of five to 99 years. The sentencing phase of the trial is scheduled to begin later Tuesday and the jury is expected to hear from Jean's family members before rendering punishment. 

"We believe that Botham's life mattered and we want a sentence that reflects that," Lee Merritt, an attorney for Jean family, said at a post-verdict news conference. 

Upon hearing the verdict, Guyger appeared to wipe tears from her eyes with a tissue as she sat back down at the defense table. 

"Nothing will bring Botham back, but today his family has found some measure of justice," Ben Crump, a lawyer for Jean's family, said in a statement. "What happened on September 6, 2018, is clear to everyone: This officer saw a black man and shot, without reason and without justification. The jury’s thoughtful verdict sets a powerful precedent for future cases, telling law enforcement officers that they cannot hide behind the badge but instead will face justice for their wrongful actions." 

The verdict followed a trial that lasted a little over a week. The jury was sequestered throughout the proceedings. 

The jury began deliberations Monday afternoon after prosecutors told them in their closing argument that Guyger made a series of "unreasonable decisions" that cost an innocent man his life. Defense attorneys countered that she made "reasonable" mistakes that led her to resort to lethal force because she believed her life was in jeopardy.

Crump later said at a news conference that the jury made "history today in America." He then cited other African Americans killed by police who were cleared of wrongdoing, including 12-year-old Tamir Rice who was killed by a white Cleveland police officer. 

Crump said the verdict was "for so many unarmed black and brown people all over America" killed by police.

The jury came to its decision after asking for clarification on the definition of manslaughter and a clearer explanation of the Castle Doctrine, a legal protection for a homeowner who uses deadly force inside their home against an intruder. 

Guyger's defense team attempted to use the Castle Doctrine, which is similar to Florida's "stand your ground" law, as a defense, arguing that while she was in the wrong apartment, in her mind she believed she was in her own unit, which was a floor below Jean's. The prosecution countered that the Castle Doctrine did not apply in the case. 

Before the jurors began deliberations, Judge Kemp gave them a series of instructions, including offering the panel the option of weighing whether Guyger committed murder or manslaughter when she mistakenly entered Jean's apartment and fatally shot him believing he was an intruder.

In his closing argument on Monday, Dallas County Assistant District Attorney Jason Fine stood before jurors and asked them to reject Guyer's "crazy" contention that she shot the 26-year-old Jean in self-defense because she believed she was in her own apartment and that the victim, who was sitting on his couch eating ice cream, was going to kill her.

Fine began by reading from a piece of paper an excerpt from Guyger's testimony last week, in which she said, "I never want anybody to have to go through or even imagine going through what I felt that night." 

"Are you kidding me? That is garbage," Fine said, crumpling up the paper and throwing it in the trash. "Most of what she said was garbage. Ninety-nine percent of this trial has been about the defendant." 

Fine asked the jury to put themselves in the shoes of both Jean and Guyger when they entered the deliberation room. 

"He's eating ice cream on his couch. So, if you're sitting and eating ice cream you get shot in the heart? Is that what we're saying?" Fine said.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
13.1  sandy-2021492  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @13    3 weeks ago

TBH, I think it was pretty slimy to claim self-defense.  She should have pled guilty.

 
 
 
Ender
13.1.1  Ender  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1    3 weeks ago

I think she should have worked out some sort of plea deal to begin with.

Though sometimes I think I have seen too many crime shows.

 
 
 
Freefaller
13.1.2  Freefaller  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1    3 weeks ago
She should have pled guilty.

Criminals are not well known for their social conscience

 
 
 
MrFrost
13.1.3  MrFrost  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1    3 weeks ago

TBH, I think it was pretty slimy to claim self-defense.  She should have pled guilty.

Exactly. Self defense of what? An apartment that she didn't even live in? WTF? 

 
 
 
Tacos!
13.1.4  Tacos!  replied to  sandy-2021492 @13.1    3 weeks ago
She should have pled guilty.

Of course we don't know what - if any - deals were floated. Murder is a first degree felony in Texas and manslaughter is a second degree felony. They carry minimum terms of 5 and 2 years respectively, but they have maximums of 99 and 20 years. No lawyer is going to let his client plead to a potential 99 year sentence and few would plead to anything approaching 20 years, especially for a first offense. But again, we don't know the offer.

Maybe any prison time was unacceptable to her. Or maybe she just really felt like she hadn't done anything wrong.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
13.1.5  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  Ender @13.1.1    3 weeks ago
Though sometimes I think I have seen too many crime shows.

Yeah, me too sometimes.

 
 
 
Steve Ott
14  Steve Ott    3 weeks ago

A police officer, just like a soldier, should always be aware of their surroundings. I've worked 12 hour days for months on end (and I'm 30 years older than this gal) and never walked into the wrong house. If you do that kind of stuff, you are one stupid human being.

She lived one floor BELOW. the apartment she was in. If you are that disoriented how did you even make it that far? There is nothing about her story that holds up to scrutiny.

About time a cop got their due.

 
 
 
cjfrommn
15  cjfrommn    3 weeks ago

Well this poor lady /s/ had her texts read out loud in court-- humm i am not buying the fear defense now,

In the texts, Guyger jokes about Martin Luther King Jr.’s death, mocks her black colleagues and discusses a dog that her friend warns “may be racist.” “It’s okay.. I’m the same,” Guyger wrote back about the dog, just days before she fatally shot 26-year-old Botham Jean   in his Dallas apartment on Sept. 6, 2018 . One minute later, she texted again: “I hate everything and everyone but y’all.”

well this stuff just is sometimes is as you see it. exposed her self with her fingers-- so here is the real amber!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/02/amber-guyger-offensive-texts-botham-jean-murder/

I wonder if she will be concerned about how many inmates may take a wrong turn in to her jail cell. And blame it on a dysfunctional sleep number bed, humm

 
 
 
Tessylo
15.1  Tessylo  replied to  cjfrommn @15    3 weeks ago

I don't think this all came out until after the verdict was handed down.  

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
15.2  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  cjfrommn @15    3 weeks ago
I wonder if she will be concerned about how many inmates may take a wrong turn in to her jail cell.

I'm certain that will be a concern as she serves her ten-year sentence.  She will be in segregation and protected, but if someone really wanted to get to her, they could. 

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
16  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    3 weeks ago

Ten Years.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
16.1  JohnRussell  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @16    3 weeks ago

Sounds about right. 

 
 
 
devangelical
16.2  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @16    3 weeks ago

10 months if she puts her mind, er... hind to it

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
16.2.1  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom  replied to  devangelical @16.2    3 weeks ago

I thought that was just a guy prisoner thing...

 
 
 
devangelical
16.2.2  devangelical  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @16.2.1    3 weeks ago

well I, er, uh... never mind.

 
 
 
Cerenkov
16.3  Cerenkov  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @16    3 weeks ago

A little harsh but she should be out in 5.

 
 
 
Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom
17  author  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom    3 weeks ago

If you haven't seen the hug, I highly recommend it.  Still sobbing, I am.

 
 
 
cjfrommn
17.1  cjfrommn  replied to  Sister Mary Agnes Ample Bottom @17    2 weeks ago

well this young man should be first in line when he gets upstairs. wow i hope he was motivated more for himself to allow to heal vs her. But thats why this is such a tragedy because we know this man was more afraid of her then she of him! sad for all involved!!

 
 
 
JohnRussell
18  JohnRussell    3 weeks ago

Moral of the story - always be aware of where you are and never text while walking. 

This lady is most likely not evil, but she is guilty of causing an accident that took someones life.  She caused it, she is responsible to the tune of 10 years in prison. 

 
 
 
Cerenkov
18.1  Cerenkov  replied to  JohnRussell @18    3 weeks ago

5 at most.

 
 
 
Split Personality
18.2  Split Personality  replied to  JohnRussell @18    3 weeks ago

She claimed she was deep into a sexual conversation with her officer boyfriend when she parked the car and approached her apartment.

So naturally the police took and searched the cell phone.

It bothered me that the city fired her quickly, no push back from the union or the ACLU, no one.

Turns out her text messages to other white officers were a trove of racist comments.

The jury picked murder because Guyger saw a black person and instinctively shot twice not once.

10 years minimum is my best guess...

 
 
 
Split Personality
18.2.1  Split Personality  replied to  Split Personality @18.2    2 weeks ago

and 10 years it is...

 
 
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