Via:  krishna  •  8 months ago  •  35 comments

Retired US Marine general John Allen spared no words of outrage: “There is blood on Trump’s hands for abandoning our Kurdish allies.”

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


Occupied Kurdistan (Graphic: Wikipedia)

The withdrawal comes after years of American  involvement in helping the mostly Kurdish fighters defeat ISIS, and years in which the Kurds had fended for themselves amid the Syrian civil war, a Turkish invasion, brutal atrocities by Turkish-backed Syrian rebel groups, and a deal with Moscow and Damascus sealed the fate of eastern Syria. Some 200,000 people have fled their homes, a well-known Kurdish female politician, Hevrin Khalaf, her driver and several others were killed by fighters supposedly allied with Ankara on a road outside Tel Abyad in northern Syria, and uncertainty remains as thousands of ISIS supporters appear ready to flee their detention facilities.

The cynical decision by the US to leave parts of eastern Syria left many questions about what US President Donald Trump had decided in his conversation with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. 

The US military, which was left out of the loop of White House decision-making, tried to deal with Turkey’s threats and concerns, by establishing a “security mechanism” and getting the SDF to destroy forts and obstacles to Turkey’s upcoming attack. The US thought it was building trust, but Turkey was merely getting the US to do its work for it. The US military had been training 110,000 SDF fighters and had no idea that in Washington they were about to be thrown into chaos, watching those they trained be killed and ordered to leave.

The SDF was told it was all alone, the skies would be opened to Turkish airstrikes, and the SDF was told to keep holding ISIS detainees while Turkey, a NATO member, attacked it. The US had trained the SDF, only to then allow it to be destroyed.

Retired US Marine general John Allen spared no words of outrage: “There is blood on Trump’s hands for abandoning our Kurdish allies.”


1.Turkey's Syria Invasion: Member Of US Special Forces Says, 'I Am Ashamed For The First Time In My Career'

2. Retired United States Marine Corps General, James Mattis Says ISIS 'Will Resurge' In Syria Following Trump's Move To Withdraw US Troops


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1  seeder  Krishna    8 months ago

As Turkish bombs began to fall, Kurds in Kobane, the city that had resisted ISIS in 2014, fled toward the US base, demanding support and protection. There would be no protection.

The SDF suffered withering attacks from October 9 to 12, in which Turkey said around 500 “terrorists” were killed in more than 200 airstrikes.

SDF Gen. Mazloum Kobani told the Americans that they had abandoned his fighters to be slaughtered. He was angry with William Roebuck, the deputy US envoy for the anti-ISIS campaign.

On October 12, he told the Americans that if they couldn’t protect his people, then the SDF would have to speak to Moscow and Damascus. “Either you stop this bombing or move aside,” he said. He would not allow another Afrin, where Kurds were ethnically cleansed from their peaceful villages in northwest Syria in 2018 by a similar Turkish operation.

2  seeder  Krishna    8 months ago

The Americans, who knew that Turkey had impunity to bomb eastern Syria, were coy, telling Mazloum to wait. Later, on the evening of October 12, videos emerged of Turkish-backed rebels executing Kurdish prisoners.

It was now clear to the SDF leadership that this is what awaited them: their families would be bombed and driven from their homes and they would be killed, either in battle or executed after. Civilian politicians would also be hunted down and murdered, like Khalaf. Their executions would be filmed, like ISIS had done, with jihadists chanting religious slogans and kicking and beheading Kurdish bodies.

Retired US Marine general John Allen spared no words of outrage: “There is blood on Trump’s hands for abandoning our Kurdish allies.”

Freedom Warrior
2.1  Freedom Warrior  replied to  Krishna @2    8 months ago

 Well that sounds like a perfectly good reason not to be there

2.1.1  seeder  Krishna  replied to  Freedom Warrior @2.1    8 months ago

While he might not be nearly as wise as you, here's what  Retired United States Marine Corps General,   James Mattis Says:

ISIS 'Will Resurge' In Syria Following Trump's Move To Withdraw US Troops

Freedom Warrior
2.1.2  Freedom Warrior  replied to  Krishna @2.1.1    7 months ago

Like that's not going to  happen till the end of time anyway.   Clearly Maddog aligns himself with the military establishment.  Let me know when they have killed all the kooks in the ME and maybe I'll be impressed.

3  dave-2693993    8 months ago

Another President who is "smarter" than his military and needs no international allies.

3.1  Ronin2  replied to  dave-2693993 @3    8 months ago

I will ask you the same question as everyone else. Show me the UN Security Council Resolution that allowed the US to operate in Syria. Show me where the Syrian government ever gave us permission.  Obama never even received permission for Congress. He used the war on terror to illegally expand fighting back into Iraq, enter Syria, and bomb Yemen. In fact take his entire extra judicial drone killings across the middle east, Africa, and elsewhere were illegal.

Seems our military, like Obama, isn't smart enough to understand international law.

3.1.1  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1    8 months ago

Obama..... Hillary..... Bengahzi….. Deflect, deflect, deflect!

TRUMP gave the order to pull back our troops which changed the status quo which gave the green light to Turkey.

This isn't about legal this, or judicial that.  This is about immorality of not standing with an ally that bled and died to get a nasty job done that had to get done.  The Kurds trusted us, and Trump is feeding them, their wives and children to the wolves.  

3.1.2  dave-2693993  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1    7 months ago
I will ask you the same question as everyone else. Show me the UN Security Council Resolution that allowed the US to operate in Syria. Show me where the Syrian government ever gave al

No need to.

I think our previous discussion covered this, but maybe not recognizable in this specific context.

This set of questions reminds me of a first assignment I was sent on with a particular resource to help some people.

This fella was obviously dissatisfied with the assignment. Eventually, right in front of the folks we were there to help, he goes off on a similar line of question. 

"If this that and the other thing, blah, blah, blah, we wouldn't even be here...blah, blah, blah..."

I had to dress him down right then and there in front of everyone.

I think I remember the exact words. "The fact of the matter is, we are here right now. We have a job to do". His attitude came around remarkably well.

In the case of the Kurds, we have stabbed a very loyal ally in the back. At this point in time, it doesn't matter how they became our allies. The fact of the matter is, right then and there, they WERE our allies. This ally gave the blood of over 10K of their own to do our dirty work.

After a phone call "we" stabbed that ally in the back.

That is less than immoral. That is evil.

Some times you just have to put your foot down, take over the situation and get out in a controlled manner.

3.1.3  Ronin2  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @3.1.1    7 months ago

Illegal is illegal period. But please continue to espouse nonsense. They knew for two damn years Trump wanted out. Our "allies" did, the military did, and so did the Kurds. 

Now the time to leave is here and everyone is saying "This is so damn unexpected!" Only to those that weren't listening.

Oh, and try not to cry too hard for the Kurds. They got over the US damn fast and joined forces with the Syrian government. Something that should have happened a long time ago if it hadn't been been for Obama holding out false hope we would get Assad removed.

Syria’s military has arrived at the frontline of the flashpoint town of Manbij, after Kurdish fighters appealed to Damascus for help against the threat of attack by Turkey in the face of the withdrawal of US troops from the area.

It was not immediately clear whether US personnel, who are based in the town and have been patrolling Manbij and the tense frontline between it and adjacent towns where Turkey-backed fighters are based , were still present. The US-led coalition against Isis did not respond to a request for comment.

“We invite the Syrian government forces … to assert control over the areas our forces have withdrawn from, in particularly Manbij, and to protect these areas against a Turkish invasion,” a statement from the People’s Protection Units (YPG) said.

The Syrian army had already mobilised before the public Kurdish invitation. It said on Friday morning that units had entered the town on the western bank of the Euphrates.

A monitor and several local sources said Syrian troops had only massed on the edges of the town rather than the city centre, and that the Syrian flag had been raised above official buildings for the first time in years.

Syrian rebel groups backed by Turkey said in response that they had also begun moving towards Manbij in full readiness for a military operation.

The conflicting reports from Manbij are a harbinger of the chaos that is likely to ensue at the end of the 60-100 day timetable for the withdrawal of US troops, with the remaining fighting forces in Syria scrambling to replace them.

Notice the date on the article? The troops were supposed to be out months ago. Trump has been fighting the military and his own administration to get the hell out. The Kurds were already talking to the Syrian government and turning some of the border towns over to them.

In a major victory for U.S. President Donald Trump’s national security team, the United Kingdom and France have agreed to send additional forces to Syria to pick up the slack as U.S. troops withdraw, sources familiar with the discussions told Foreign Policy .

Britain and France, the only other U.S. partners that still have ground forces in Syria, will commit to a marginal 10 to 15 percent troop increase, a U.S. administration official confirmed. Other countries may send small numbers of troops as well, but in exchange the United States would have to pay, the official said.

Neither the timeframe for the deployment nor the exact number of additional troops is clear, the official said, adding that “overall we have been disappointed” in efforts to persuade U.S. allies to commit additional resources to the ongoing fight against the Islamic State terrorist group in Syria.

In addition to Britain and France, Italy is close to a decision on whether or not to send additional forces, and a number of Balkan and Baltic states are “almost certain to send handfuls of soldiers each,” according to a separate source with knowledge of the discussions.

Trump announced the United States would completely withdraw from Syria in December 2018, a move that prompted the resignation of then-Defense Secretary James Mattis and other top officials. However, he has since partially reversed course , agreeing to leave a small U.S. footprint in the country.

While it is a success for the administration, the marginal increase of U.K. and French troops likely won’t completely fill the gap left when U.S. forces leave. The U.S. footprint in Syria is expected to drop from an estimated 2,000 troops to just 400; the exact number of British and French forces in the country is unknown, but the second source estimated each country currently has just 200 to 300 troops there.

The news comes a day after Germany rejected a similar U.S. request to send ground troops to Syria, where war has been ongoing since 2011. The German military currently provides reconnaissance jets, a refueling aircraft, and other noncombat military assistance to the fight against the Islamic State, according to German media.

So where are the damn French and British forces? Where are their air forces to provide cover for the Kurds and "moderate" Sunni rebel forces?  How about Italy and the Baltic nations. Seems our "allies" have feet of clay; and can betray the US with no problem. Their ground forces pulled back when we did; in fact before we did and much further. Notice that neither the French, nor British, are complaining about their forces coming under Turkish fire. Their air forces were never deployed. No US to do the heavy lifting and our allies wimp out.  They would have dragged their feet forever if Trump would have let them.

So please, can the Trump betrayed our ally BS. We could have stayed there forever just waiting for Syrian government forces, Iranians, or Russians to work of the nerve to attack our troops directly. Once they did we would have been at war with all of them. We are in the country illegally. Backing and protecting rebels at war with the legitimate government we don't like. Which doesn't seem to matter to the bleeding hearts.

My biggest issue with Trump is he didn't call our allies in secret, an hour or so before the pullout, and say, "You have had 10 months to prepare. We are gone." Now our troops are trapped between the Kurds, Syrian government, and Turkish & their rebel forces. That you can blame on him.

3.1.4  Ronin2  replied to  dave-2693993 @3.1.2    7 months ago
After a phone call "we" stabbed that ally in the back.

See post 3.1.1 

Can't stab an "ally" in back when they get two years advanced notice; and a timeline set in December of 2018. Which was extended so our good NATO "allies" could deploy their troops and air force to take over.

That is less than immoral. That is evil.

No, evil is entering a country illegally, and fighting a proxy civil war to remove a government simply because they are not pro Western. Evil is bombing a country into oblivion to remove a government for French and British oil contracts. Evil is invading a country and removing a strong government, and then failing (yet again) in nation building- flipping the nation over to an enemy in the process. Evil is deploying US forces around the world without any achievable goals or exit strategies, and expecting them to serve in never improving dangerous situations forever. Evil is extra judicial drone killings all across the world, including two US citizens.   

Some times you just have to put your foot down, take over the situation and get out in a controlled manner.

Tell me, how did that work in Vietnam? How is it working out in Afghanistan? Iraq (twice now)? Kosovo? South Korea? Japan? Germany? Or a host of other countries that the US put their foot down in, and can't seem to get out of.

3.1.5  dave-2693993  replied to  Ronin2 @3.1.4    7 months ago
After a phone call "we" stabbed that ally in the back. (my statement from 3.1.2, not sure about the reference to 3.1.1)

See post 3.1.1 

Can't stab an "ally" in back when they get two years advanced notice; and a timeline set in December of 2018. Which was extended so our good NATO "allies" could deploy their troops and air force to take over.

Here is my understanding about the phone call:

  • PublishedOct. 7, 2019UpdatedOct. 15, 2019
WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria , the White House said on Sunday that  President Trump  had given his endorsement for a  Turkish military  operation that would sweep away American-backed  Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.
Turkey  considers the  Kurdish  forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group. But the  Kurdish  fighters, which are part of the Syrian Democratic Forces, or S.D.F., have been the United States’ most reliable partner in fighting the Islamic State in a strategic corner of northern Syria.

[Related: Why Turkey is figthing the Kurds in Syria , explained.]

Now, Mr. Trump’s decision goes against the recommendations of top officials in the Pentagon and the State Department who have sought to keep a small troop presence in northeast Syria to continue operations against the Islamic State, or ISIS , and to act as a critical counterweight to Iran and Russia .

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Administration officials said that Mr. Trump spoke directly with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey on the issue on Sunday. And the officials indicated that the 100 to 150 United States military personnel deployed to that area would be pulled back in advance of any Turkish operation but that they would not be completely withdrawn from Syria.


Last December, Mr. Trump called for a complete United States withdrawal from Syria, but ultimately reversed himself after a backlash from Pentagon, diplomatic and intelligence officials, as well as important allies in Europe and the Middle East.... ... In late December 2018, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis resigned over Mr. Trump’s surprise order of a full withdrawal of 2,000 American troops from Syria. Two days later, Brett McGurk, the special presidential envoy for the coalition to defeat ISIS, also resigned . In the months afterward, American officials quietly worked behind the scenes to ensure that some level of troops would remain in northeast Syria.

If the Kurds were not our allies, I do not know what constitutes an ally.

As for the timeline set in December, can you point it out? A real timeline, not some declaration. They are two different things. A declaration is just a statement. 

A timeline has established goals/milestones with activities to achieve each.

Does something like that exist?

As for ever other international failures, etc, mentioned in your post are good examples of NOT taking control. Nonetheless they are beside the point relative to this discussion and do not reduce this backstabbing of the Kurds we just witnessed.

Identifying past failures does not justify our recent backstabbing of the Kurds. Right here and now.

4  Kavika     8 months ago

Top special ops Marine who fought with Kurds blasts Trump move in Syria as betrayal

"As a guy who has fought alongside the Kurds," said former Marine Col. Andrew Milburn, "on an emotional level this is gut-wrenching."
4.1  Ronin2  replied to  Kavika @4    8 months ago

Bet he can't sight a single legal reason we were in Syria either.

6 years of illegally occupying territory in Syria, and over 6 year of illegally violating their air space and bombing. All for what? So in a few days the Kurds could join the Syrian government- a move that could have happened long ago had we not interfered, and Obama given them false hope of removing Assad.

What a damn waste of money, resources, and lives.

4.1.1  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    8 months ago

What a damn waste of money, resources, and lives.

Why and how to Kurds show more respect to US as we fck them over, than your comment does ?

4.1.2  Ronin2  replied to  igknorantzrulz @4.1.1    8 months ago

Screw the Kurds.

We are not at war with Syria. Obama never sought a UN Security Council Resolution to authorize our presence. He never asked the Syrian government for damn sure; as he was more concerned about removing Assad.

The Kurds in Syria and Iraq were using us to try and carve their Kurdistan out. Dumbest idea ever; but we gave them false hope.

You like supporting bloody proxy civil wars? Like keeping our troops in dangerous third world shit holes illegally? Likes wasting billions to achieve absolutely fucking nothing?

That is what I love, the chicken hawks coming out of the wood work because another one of Obama's mistakes is being erased.

The Kurds in Syria our now aligned the way they should have been from the beginning, with government forces to fight ISIS/ISIL and those "moderate" Sunnis that we were supporting that were attacking them. 

The civil war will get bloodier before peace is achieved. Turkey needs to be forced back out of Syria (that will be up to the Russians and the rest of the world, if they ever find their backbones.)  Then ISIS/ISIL and the other rebel factions will need to be dealt with. Expect those "moderate" Sunnis to make an exodus back in to Iraq; not sure the Kurds, Iranian militias, and Iraqi government forces will be welcoming. ISIS/ISIL will complete their transition into Lebanon, and branch out from there. Nothing that they are no already doing.

Not every situation in the world needs the US special military touch, and presence. It is well past time we learned that.

4.1.3  igknorantzrulz  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.2    8 months ago
Screw the Kurds.

Trumps' been doing that, while they are being KILLED after being our 'boots on the ground'. Are you proud of Trump being the architect for enabling genocidal persecution of a peoples, who have proven to be our best and only other  ally in the ME, besides Israel ?

This extremely small contingent of our Military, had so many checks in place, and Trump just chooses to toss our entire Syrian Policy out the door, enables and encourages an autocratic scum bag, benefits Assad and Syria, Putin and Russia, Iran and what exactly do we get.... ISIS unguarded...WTF, you don't need to be an authority on world affairs, open your fckn eyes and see how Trumps' words are causing DEATH ! 

4.1.4  Kavika   replied to  Ronin2 @4.1    8 months ago
Bet he can't sight a single legal reason we were in Syria either.

I'm quite sure that he could since he would have a great deal more intelligence on the subject than armchair quarterbacks. 

You do realize that Trump authorized numerous airstrikes in Syria, don't you?  

4.1.5  FLYNAVY1  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.2    8 months ago

Screw the Kurds......

So that is the sum total of your legal recommendations?

This isn't a legal question, it's one of morality, and character.  Things that America has always stood for.

4.1.6  Ronin2  replied to  Kavika @4.1.4    7 months ago

Really? Trump also increased the amount of US ground forces in Syria as well.

Show me a single post I put up supporting him doing either.

4.1.7  Ronin2  replied to  Kavika @4.1.4    7 months ago


Show me the declaration of war, or authorization of use of military force, in Syria by Congress. Show me the UN Security Council Resolution authorizing US forces to be in Syria and US fighters to invade Syrian air space. Show me the NATO vote on Syria. 

You can't; because they don't exist.

Legality is more than just a word.

4.1.9  seeder  Krishna  replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.2    7 months ago
Screw the Kurds.

Its already been done:

In fact I just seeded an article about that:

When Saddam Hussein Used WMDs

4.1.11  Kavika   replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.7    7 months ago

I never said it was legal or illegal. 

But it's nice to know that Trump violated the law as well...

4.1.12  Kavika   replied to  Ronin2 @4.1.6    7 months ago
Show me a single post I put up supporting him doing either.

I never said you did. Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

4.1.13  bbl-1  replied to  Krishna @4.1.9    7 months ago

Yeah.  The 'screw the Kurds' comment.  Sure am thankful I wasn't depending on folk such as that in Vietnam.  B Troop-7/17 Air Cavalry-3rd 506th-101st Airborne.  68-69.

4.1.14  Kavika   replied to  bbl-1 @4.1.13    7 months ago


5  Nerm_L    8 months ago

ISIS has been defeated as an organized military threat.  There isn't an ISIS army any longer.  And there isn't an ISIS caliphate.  That was the military mission in Syria; the mission was not to partition Syria (as Joe Biden proposed in the past).

There is not a Kurdistan.  And the military mission was not to establish a Kurdistan.  At some point it was going to be necessary for a reunification of Syria.  The only other military alternative would be to engage in a different war mission to remove the Assad government.  

Where's Europe?  Where's NATO?  Where's the United Nations?  Have those bodies endorsed partitioning Syria to establish a separate Kurdish state (as Joe Biden proposed)?  And what are those bodies going to contribute toward establishing and protecting civil government for a Kurdistan?  The US Marines can't become the Dept. of Defense for a Kurdistan.  And the US Marines are not capable of establishing civil government in a partitioned Syria; the US Marines could only establish a military government of occupation.  And without partners in that effort, Syria would turn into another Korea or Vietnam.

A continued US military presence in Syria prolongs the civil war.  A stalemate of endless civil war is not viable.  The United States cannot partition Syria alone; the rest of the world must be involved.  The lack of cooperation by Europe, NATO, and the United Nations prevents the United States from doing more than destroying the organized army of ISIS.  The war hawks and supporters of separatists are trying to force the United States into another Korea or Vietnam.  We know how that story would end.  

The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"
6  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen"    7 months ago

The nonstop neocon propaganda is impressive.


6.1  dave-2693993  replied to  The People's Fish, Still "Hand Of The Queen" @6    7 months ago
The nonstop neocon propaganda is impressive. Waaaaaar!

Hell yeah. It's working really well. We re-kindled one just in the last week.

Perrie Halpern R.A.
6.1.1  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  dave-2693993 @6.1    7 months ago

There you go!

6.1.2  FLYNAVY1  replied to  dave-2693993 @6.1    7 months ago

All while putting another 3000 American personnel in harms way in SA to guard the profits coming out of the refineries there.

7  bbl-1    7 months ago

Little more to say.  The Trump did 'the done'.  The Kurds didn't help us at Normandy or something like that.

What ever.  The 'Six Days' in the title sounds biblical.  Are the christian taliban wetting themselves yet?

Raven Wing
7.1  Raven Wing  replied to  bbl-1 @7    7 months ago

We will reap what we sow....and history will not be kind to Trump, or those who support him. 

There will come a day when America, and its people, will bear the Karma of the worst President America has ever had, bar none. 

Yet, it will be the innocent children of America who will bear the brunt of the unmatched hate Trump has generated worldwide in less than a single term. 


8  FLYNAVY1    7 months ago

Most knew Trump is and has always been a POS.  The real criminal aspect of this is those that continue to support and empower him. 

That being said, now more than ever I suspect that some here that continue to carry Trump's water are actually paid trolls deliberately stirring the pot of hatred, and division.

Raven Wing
8.1  Raven Wing  replied to  FLYNAVY1 @8    7 months ago
are actually paid trolls deliberately stirring the pot of hatred, and division.

Based on some of their comments that is a great possibility. Some think they are clever to hide their intentions, but, their comments are a sure giveaway. 


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