Much to Liberals' Horror, Trump Declares Nat'l Day of Prayer as We Look 'to God for Protection & Strength'
It’s great that America is turning to God in prayer. It’s a great American tradition in times of crisis.
S E E D E D C O N T E N T
On the same day that President Donald Trump declared coronavirus a national emergency, the commander in chief also declared a national day of prayer for this weekend.
The day of supplication will be this Sunday.
“It is my great honor to declare Sunday, March 15th as a National Day of Prayer,” Trump tweeted Friday.
“We are a Country that, throughout our history, has looked to God for protection and strength in times like these.” “No matter where you may be, I encourage you to turn towards prayer in an act of faith. Together, we will easily PREVAIL!”
Do you plan on commemorating the national day of prayer?
The move came after his declaration of coronavirus as a national emergency.
“The action I am taking will open up access to up to $50 billion of very important and a large amount of money for states and territories and localities,” Trump said .
He added that he’d partnered with private companies in order to “vastly increase and accelerate our capacity to test for the coronavirus.”
This was the big news of the day , as it rightly should have been.
However, the national day of prayer didn’t get nearly as much coverage as it should have.
As Fox News reported, the annual National Day of Prayer is scheduled for May 7. That’s quite a ways away, particularly when you consider the fact that we’re facing a generational health crisis.
And, as Trump noted in his State of the Union speech, there’s nothing more American than humbling ourselves before the Lord.
“In America we celebrate faith. We cherish religion,” Trump said.
“We lift our voices in prayer and we raise our sights to the glory of God.”
WARNING : One of the following tweets contains vulgar language that some readers may find offensive. Viewer discretion is advised.
This sort of thing annoys some people, which is why you got more than a few responses like these which showed liberals’ horror at the idea of prayer — particularly from Trump. At difficult moments like these for the nation, this is the meliorative power of prayer .
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God,” Philippians 4:6 says.
In trying times like these, it helps to remember that things aren’t in our hands and that we have a heavenly father to call upon for protection.
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At difficult moments like these for the nation, this is the meliorative power of prayer.
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God,” Philippians 4:6 says.
In trying times like these, it helps to remember that things aren’t in our hands and that we have a heavenly father to call upon for protection.
A prime example of the problem with religious belief. Those who truly believe that God has things covered are not going to be as likely to take actions necessary to contain its spread.
I suspect that the vast majority of people who have religious beliefs have no problems with it whatsoever.
Ridiculous assumption.
You have never heard of anti-vaxers or JWs who refuse necessary blood transplants?
Naive assumption. Those who truly believe sometimes have and do act in harmful ways.
I have.
So do people who don't believe.
So what?
What problem? There's no problem here at all.
That's horseshit. That certainly isn't what has been happening. It's not like Trump started with prayer and then stuck with it to the exclusion of all other options. He has been taking lots of actions to contain or limit the spread of disease for several days. Only now after it has been going on for some time, has he finally suggested that people pray as a country. It will give a lot of people strength and comfort. What do you care?
There is a lot of anxiety in the country. This is a good idea.
Do you imagine that you are adding something positive to what we are all going through when you march in here and crap on the idea of praying? It's not smart. It's mean.
You have never heard of anti-vaxers or JWs who refuse necessary blood transplants?
Denying that religious beliefs do not lead to people making stupid choices is ridiculous.
I sure hope leaders (like Pence) presume that it is totally up to us to deal with this pandemic and not have in the back of his mind that God has our back.
Do you see the logic in presuming that prayer will do precisely nothing to shut down the spread of this disease?
And that is the intent....
There are several reasons people oppose vaccines. The most notorious reason in recent is because people are afraid the vaccines will cause autism in their children, not because of religion.
[deleted] Literally billions of people in the world are religious and get vaccines and other proper medical care.
And you of course go personal.
As for your logic, I mentioned anti-vaxers as an example and you return arguing that they are a minority and pretend that religious anti-vaxers do not exist.
I made no claim that they were the majority.
[deleted]
Bullshit. Your initial claim was that people who pray are "unlikely" (I take that to mean more than 50% - a majority) to take proper actions to combat disease. Now you want to try to equivocate instead of admit your error.
You also assumed that anti-vaxxing is based on religion. While it is for some people, that has not been the overriding reason. Some people are simply afraid of vaccines because they fear the shot itself will have negative side effects.
And, as I have pointed out elsewhere, billions of religious people are happy to receive appropriate medical care.
Flat out lie. Complete misrepresentation of my position and my comment history.
Man, all you have to do is read what I wrote. Here, I will show you:
If someone truly believes God has things covered, what logically do you think that will mean? Read what I actually write. Think about it. The level of presumption here is staggering.
Those were my opening comments. I have approached this topic thoughtfully. Note how the tone turned into aggressive, belligerent, personal snark with the responses.
Oh how awful! You're making it personal. Wahhh! /s
Like I care about your explanations and spin at this point.
I quoted my opening comments to read. You do not want to truly read what I write. I am not surprised based on your comments here. Much easier just to make false allegations and misrepresentations.
Good grief, chill. Try to make reasoned, factual arguments instead of going personal with allegations. And at least read what I write before you comment.
I am going to close this thread as I can see no good coming from it at this point. No more comments.
I closed this thread yet I come back to three more comments. I have deleted them. But if I see any more comments in this thread, I will be handing out points.
Come morning, I can almost guarantee that this seed will be overrun with people who don't believe in prayer or God, telling us that do that we are simply wasting our time.
I recommend you do quite a bit more than prayer. Wash your hands with soap and water and avoid public places where possible. The virus can live on a surface for days. Prayer might make one feel better but it is not going to contain this virus.
I didn't claim prayer would stop the virus.
But I know for sure it can't hurt!
I reject the notion that people who pray about the virus are likely to do less to protect themselves.
Certainly in my case that is merely ridiculous.
Indeed. I’m Ill now and don’t know what I have. I’m using precautions and prayer. I went to the doctor yesterday when I first started feeling under the weather. Got an ok verdict though not tested for wuhan. Today has been rougher and the urgent care I use is now closed because of the virus. So I’ll have to go to the local ER tomorrow if my fever goes higher.
I am one of those people who believes that God helps those who also help themselves.
Of course we use precautions. It is simply ridiculous to think otherwise.
Agreed. A total straw man argument.
I hope you feel better and it does not get worse
I hope all is well. It might be best to call the ER before going, to ask about any precautions. I think some have procedures in place to isolate those suspected of having coronavirus. They may not want you sitting in the waiting room, for example.
The fever broke though I still feel weak from the effects.
We clash I know, but I hope you fair well.
Thanks, I’m feeling better. Seems to be a bacterial infection that anti biotics are dealing with. Taking vitamins as well to build up depleted immune system along with the other precautions. And prayer.
The secularists didn’t take that long to dump all over the fact we are having a national day of prayer 🙏 today.
Yeah, you kind of are wasting your time when there are far more effective means to handle this pandemic.
Like an emotional placebo.
If one is able to help themselves, then who needs a god?
Your opinion is duly noted. And summarily dismissed.
And that has what effect on you personally? (Besides feelings, of course.)
Just literally billions throughout history. Why does it matter to you?
Get back to me when prayer actually does something to alleviate this current crisis.
I didn't say it had any effect on me. I simply said it was a placebo.
If one is able to help themselves, then god is clearly not necessary. But like I said, people sure are irrational.
No, you get back when prayer hurts anyone or anything regarding this crisis. Just make sure you can prove it.
You don't know if it is a placebo or not, and you definitely can't prove it.
Even if it IS a placebo, why are you concerned enough about it to bother to comment on it?
Once again, merely an opinion--coming from someone who doesn't believe in God, so not much to it.
Some certainly are!
They sure are. Especially when they care so much about what others believe or don’t believe.
Glad you agree.
Certain theists sure seem to care, declaring differing beliefs or religions (or non-religion) as wrong or "satanic." Irrational to be sure.
Look up Christian Scientists. A perfect example of how a prayer-only approach causes harm.
Outside of emotional or mental comfort, what effect does it have? Right, none!
Not concerned. Just pointing out the absurdity of it.
What does belief in god have to do with it. If one is able to do something on their own, why would they need help, especially from god?
Indeed. One can tell by all the praying.
Which has diddly-squat to do with the President declaring a National Day of Prayer.
of course, it is an opening for some to condemn any religion.
yawn, SOSDD
Lol ..... certain people ..... yeah you can find “certain people” who will say or believe pretty much anything.
The reality is, most believers could care less what others believe. Why you seem so concerned about what others believe is a rather curious thing.
I didn't say it did. I was addressing the point that some people seem to care what others believe or not. The Prez declaring a NDOP is just political lip service.
Who's condemning religion?
This is true.
I said there are certain believers who do. I never said most, or all, ect..
I'm not. I simply point out the BS
No one here who is a believer or the President who declared today a national day of prayer suggested a prayer alone approach. As noted before above many Christian denominations who pray a lot also run k- Prost graduate 🎓 education systems and state of the Art hospitals here and around the world.
Once again, I never said anyone did.
What's your point?
That the opposition to the national day of prayer today was and is baseless.
Because Gordy isn't satisfied with being an atheist, he wants everyone to be one.
Sure you aren’t
Clearly, one persons BS is another persons bread and butter.
Personally i find folks who have no faith in anything beyond the absolutely provable tend to be very shallow and narrow-minded. The difference is I’m not on here chirping about it non-stop.
Why make it personal? Look, here is a detailed comment that is entirely impersonal:
If one is not grounded with a factual foundation one can believe anything. The scientific method seems to work quite well and Gordy certainly expresses a thought process which correlates well with this method. Follow the good evidence to where it leads. If there is no evidence then the speculation is (as of yet) unsubstantiated. Claiming truth without even a basic foundation of evidence is absurd. Speculation is not truth.
I for one would not trust a bridge built by someone who did not design it based on proven engineering disciplines and solid evidence (fact). One can believe the bridge will be sustained by some speculative power, but I would not advise it.
I agree with Gordy that there is insufficient evidence to believe that a god exists, much less the Christian God. The evidence for such a grand claim does not exist (unless you can deliver some for us) and the evidence that argues against the claim is abundant. For example, the contradiction in definition where an omniscient God can change His mind or be surprised.
It's not personal, its how i feel about it through nearly 60 years of lifes observation.
Sorry you are taking it personal. Must be something more behind why you are taking it that way than just how i feel about it.
And you are talking to a practicing engineer. Since i've been doing it successfully for nearly 40 years i don't need a lecture on how it's properly done. That said, i can separate the two. That is to say I don't usually use good engineering practice in my personal faith nor do i EVER use faith when solving engineering problems.
Doing so could be catastrophic in either case so i really don't understand why one would feel the need to do so in the first place.
All except for the godless atheists who think that they know it all.
Your post wasn’t even addressed to the one who took your words personally.
It's okay. Tig still loves me ..... i know he/she does .....
No, Sparty, there is nothing mysterious. It is all about context. In REPLY to Gordy you wrote:
Writing that in direct REPLY to an individual:
So what I was saying is that there was no need for that.
On this, I offered an example to make a point. I did not put forth a lecture on how to properly build a bridge. I used building a bridge as an example (knowing I was talking to an engineer) to emphasize the importance of facts based on evidence rather than mere speculation.
So why the snarky response pretending that I was lecturing instead of obviously making an example of the point I made in my comment? Why pretend that I, for some unknown reason, decided to lecture an engineer on how to build a bridge? Seems to me you purposely seek to be negative rather than engage in a discussion.
Oddly, this proves you understood the point I was making with my example. Which shows you realize there was no 'lecture'. Let's go with that. So, yes, I would not expect you to follow the scientific method in your personal religious beliefs. That is the very nature of faith. Belief based on faith is the opposite of following good evidence to where it leads. And that is the point. I posited that if one is not grounded with a factual foundation one can believe anything. That is a key problem with belief based on faith. The thousands of religious belief systems in the world are evidence of this phenomenon. The many cults add to this evidence. Religious belief is not belief in a consistent set of factors; the belief systems contradict each other — sometimes famously. Right? A key reason is because religious belief is NOT based on good evidence but rather on the imagination of human beings. What we see worldwide is exactly what one would expect if religious beliefs where the result of human imagination.
Now if religious beliefs were derived from good evidence and followed a disciplined approach like the scientific method, the religions would be few, far more consistent and would contain substantially fewer details (because, as you probably recognize, there is very little evidence to conclude much beyond sentient creator).
Closing example. Even within Christianity in the USA there are profound differences in belief because the beliefs are not grounded on a foundation of evidence. Some Christians, believe that Hell is eternal damnation where souls are burned and tortured for all of time. Others believe it is simply separation from God. Others hold that there is no Hell. The grounded position on Hell would be: 'none of us even know if Hell exists much less have details on its protocols'.
You are not aware of my gender? Male.
Yeah, blah, blah, blah .... . its always nice to be told what you are thinking by someone who thinks they know you but doesn't. Looks like you want to debate again, make more baseless comments and accusations. I really don't have an interest in any of that.
It's pretty simple really ..... I took your comments the way i did .... nothing you've written above changes my opinion in that regard ..... so like usual my comment stands as written.
No debate to be had but i'm sure you'll find a way try like hell as usual.
Not that it really matters but why would i be?
Regardless, good to know. Now i won't need to type he/she .....
Look in the mirror Sparty. Yet again, I gave you a clear, thoughtful response and you ignore all the points and continue with snark. This is one-sided and obvious.
I'm sure you really do believe all of that. I don't agree but that shouldn't come as a surprise. You only think its snark because i have the temerity to disagree that your comment is thoughtful, fair and well thought out. I don't.
Not in the least.
No, I do not consider mere disagreement as snark. Try disagreeing with me on what I actually write and include thoughtful reasoning. You will not find me calling that snark.
If you do not see the venom in your comments then consider asking an objective third party.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not needed. I'm totally fine with what i wrote and i've already told you i'm not interested in the usual endless debate about it you seem to like. Word games, thinly veiled insults and contrarianism are not my thing. It's really not that hard.
We disagree. I'm fine with that. You should be as well but ...... i'm sure you won't be .............
Who said they "know it all?" Your reply certainly doesn't address my post. So what's your point, other than an obvious attempt to take a jab at atheists?
Feel free to show us precisely where I ever said that! Or admit that statement is a flat out lie!
That's right, I'm not. Glad you agree.
Why anyone would like BS is beyond me.
I prefer evidence and proof. How is that narrow minded exactly? Why have wishful thinking when one can have evidence?
You're just here chirping about those who "chirp about it non-stop."
And your "Master" on Everything evidentiary is …..whom ?
Modern Scientists Are Wrong Far More Than You Think
"Every day we rely on the careful work of scientists in ways both big and small. From the ability to send an emoji halfway across the world to the countless miracles of modern medicine, the mechanics of our everyday lives constantly involve the fruits of scientific labor. But those innovations are just a small slice of scientific inquiry happening daily, and proof that some science works for us shouldn't blind us to the field's shortcomings."
The scientific method is the best standard. I'm sure you think you're making some kind of point with citing an online magazine that isn't even scientific in nature. But no one ever said scientists were infallible. But the SM is still better for establishing fact than mere belief.
You fall on that "Sword" of "Science" as the only perfect way" …. all the time.
"Social SCIENCE " finds people like you to be fallible !
I didn't say the "perfect" way. Only the best way.
"Faults" and All.
Hmmmmmmm……
Still better than mere wishful thinking and "hoping" things turn out the way one wants.
The "Science of Phycology" says that that works too.
For emotional/mental comfort, as I already stated before. Outside of that, not so much.
Both ….. IMPORTANT !
Never said it wasn't. But that doesn't mean prayer itself produces tangible effects outside of that. Believing it does otherwise is just self delusion, which the "science of psychology" says is bad.
How sophomoric .... how old are you again?
Cool ..... can you give me scientific proof of something like love? This should be fun to watch ......
Ah yes, the old Pee Wee Herman “I know you are but what am I” debate tactic. Classic
There is no such thing as a scientific proof. Mathematical proof, logical proof sure. Science provides theories which are formal explanations that are falsifiable and offer predictions.
So instead of scientific proof, how about scientific evidence ?:
Of course, as with anything, we need to be clear on how one defines 'love'. Further, there is no claim that the phenomenon of love is even close to being fully understood. But there certainly is scientific evidence correlating brain activity and bio-chemistry with the emotion we call 'love'.
Backing President Donald Trump’s decision to make Sunday a National Day of Prayer to address the coronavirus outbreak, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Dr. Ben Carson on Saturday underlined the importance of prayer and faith in maintaining America’s greatness.
Talking about the coronavirus, or COVID-19, during President Trump’s press briefing at the White House Saturday, Carson said he hoped that Americans “can use this as an opportunity to pull together for good.”
“President Trump is going to be recommending a national day of prayer. And you know, we’ve gotten away from prayer and faith a lot in this country,” he said.
“There’s nothing wrong with godly principles, no matter what your faith is — loving your neighbor — caring about the people around you,” he continued. “Developing your God-given talents to the utmost, so you become valuable to the people around you. Having values and principles that guide your life. Those are things that made America zoom to the top of the world in record time — and those are the things that will keep us there too.”
On Friday evening, the president declared Sunday as a National Day of Prayer.
“It is my great honor to declare Sunday, March 15th as a National Day of Prayer. We are a Country that, throughout our history, has looked to God for protection and strength in times like these,” the president wrote on Twitter. “No matter where you may be, I encourage you to turn towards prayer in an act of faith. Together, we will easily PREVAIL!”
Since 1988, the first Sunday of March has been designated as a National Day of Prayer each year. Trump urged that the event be used this year to pray for protection from the coronavirus pandemic.
Responding to Trump’s call to pray for America’s safety, pastor Allen Jackson of World Outreach Church in Tennessee, the Christian nonprofit group My Faith Votes and pastor Rob Morgan of Donelson Fellowship, also in Tennessee, have announced that they will hold a joint service called “America, Its Time to Pray,” which will be live-streamed.
Congregations across the nation are invited, they said in a statement, to join them “in praying for faith over fear and God’s intervention in the spread of COVID-19.”
Speaking at the same press briefing on Saturday, U.S. Surgeon General Jerome Adams encouraged the media to focus on dealing with the disease and not on criticizing the Trump administration’s efforts to combat the coronavirus.
“I want you all to understand — straight talk from the nation’s doctor — we really need you all to lean into and prioritize the health and safety of the American people,” he said. “No more bickering, no more partisanship, no more criticism or finger-pointing; they’ll be plenty of time for that. But we all need to hit the reset button and lean forward, the health and safety of the American people are top priority.”
Adams said the spread of the novel coronavirus “will get worse before it gets better but we are making progress to flatten the curve. We are making progress.” He also assured that almost all who get infected will recover, “98, 99 percent of the people will recover.”
Also on Saturday, the Trump administration extended the existing ban on travel from Europe to include the U.K. and Ireland. The travel restrictions will come into force midnight on Monday, the administration said.
Excluded from the ban are American citizens, legal permanent residents, and their immediate families, among others.
During Saturday’s press briefing, Trump said he’s also considering domestic travel restrictions. “If you don’t have to travel, I wouldn’t do it. We want this thing to end. We don’t want a lot of people getting infected,” he said.
Says the one employing sophomoric snarkiness like that, or like this: "Ah yes, the old Pee Wee Herman “I know you are but what am I” debate tactic. Classic"
I can give you objective scientific evidence: Love is an emotion which, like all emotions, is a function of the brain, particularly (but not limited to) the amygdala. MRI scans have also identified and recorded images of parts of the brain which show increased level of activity and related neurotransmitter and hormone release associated with feelings of love. TiG provided much more detail than I. Here is one article from Harvard Medical School which elaborates on the neurological function associated with love. Here is another article focusing more on the hormonal aspect. Love essentially boils down to biology.
That post has absolutely nothing to do with TiG's post. It seems you just want to repeat yourself wherever possible.
TiG, here is another piece from Harvard regarding love.
Hopefully our posts have been 'fun to watch'.
At the very least, they are logical and have addressed the challenges made.
That post actually is the topic of the seeded article, not all the rationalizations of the secularists
Not hardly...It’s so tempting to put both of you on ignore when it comes to seeds that have anything to do with religion as long as the seed is active. Not doing it but it’s nice to think about.
How did an article stating that a national day of prayer which occurred that weekend every year since 1988 was dedicated to the current crisis and was but one of many different actions and precautions taken that day it was announced a challenge to anything?
Not that I was talking to you but yeah, that’s more or less the canned Atheist answer I was expecting. I’m sure team atheist will be on agreeing with you shortly if they haven’t already.
No proof of a concept like love so it doesn’t exist except possibly as a basic chemical reaction in the brain.
Classic!
Much like faith, love is not specifically quantifiable. Not like a derivable rule or mathematical equation and most people don’t need it to be as few would argue that it’s not a real thing. And yet we still can’t specifically “prove” it.
Must be a very vexing problem for atheists to solve ..... people of faith not so much.
calling out snark is not snark
I didn't say it wasn't the topic. Only that it doesn't address TiG's reply in any way.
I wasn't referring to the article itself.
It's a scientific answer. What were you expecting exactly? Do you disagree with the scientific basis of the answer? If so, why?
"Love" is just a chemical reaction in the brain. The science points to that. Again, what are you expecting or where is the disagreement?
Who is arguing love isn't real? Of course it is. But we understand it's a neurological and biochemical process.
How is it a problem exactly? The neuro and biological components are quite complex. But they are not unknown. It comes down to biology. What else do you think it is?
What does faith have to do with anything?
Says the one who was initially snarky to begin with.
Nope.
Science has not proven what love is beyond any reasonable doubt. Studies regarding the same are nowhere near 100% conclusive. Like faith it’s largely an unprovable concept and yet even you agree it exists.
Can you prove someone loves you beyond a reasonable doubt? No you can’t. It takes faith to do so much of the time.
Thats what faith has to do with it ......
sez the one who can’t stop
The "Science of Phycology" says otherwise.
By all means, demonstrate where prayer has tangible effects beyond psychological.
"Science" IS "Science" !
Just a deflection. Cite the science that supports your position and/or refutes mine!
Nope !
"Cite the science that supports your position and/or refutes mine!"
How soon you conveniently forget (Been there, Done that) !
Here's a New One for ya. Maybe you'll remember this one ?
That doesn't refute what I said. It only shows that physical well being is also tied to one's mental state. If people take comfort in prayer, that can reduce stress, which promoted physical healing and well-being. But if one is ill, injured, ect., prayer certainly won't treat such conditions or magically cure them.
YES it does !
SUCKS....doesn't it ?
I didn't say proved. I said evidence, which TiG already explained above.
Wrong! There is clearly a biological and neurological component to love, as well as other emotions. THat is scientifically supported with empirical evidence.
I don't go by faith. Why would I? If someone says they love me, the veracity of that declaration is based on how well I know the person, the level of established trust, the person's display of affection and emotion, ect.. So I can analyze the circumstances of the "love." I don't need to believe someone does or wish someone does.
In other words, you only think or believe, or wish you're loved. Whatever works for you. Fortunately, I have a better understanding of the biological processes involved in love and other emotions, which is backed by actual scientific study. No faith necessary or required.
Right back at you.
Only in your mind. And your citation is for an online degree? Really? You offer no actual scientific study, which doesn't surprise me.
You should change your "Personnel Pic" . It doesn't fit your Rhetoric !
"The needs of the many " …… outweigh . . .“The needs of the few ” ...…. “Or the one .”
I stand corrected--it didn't have to wait until morning.
Surprise, surprise, surprise!
You are surprised that a seed promoting prayer in the face of a pandemic is challenged?
This is a fine example of what I was explaining to you earlier. Here we have an illustration of where religious belief can be directly counter-productive. Every person who thinks this will be handled by God is unlikely to take the precautions that we all should take.
Not about harmless belief, but about the problems of suspending critical thinking.
"Surprise, surprise, surprise" was meant sarcastically.
And now I am also surprised you had trouble recognizing it as such.
Or am I?
Why on earth would anyone "challenge" a seed promoting prayer in the face of a pandemic?
That makes no sense at all.
Looks like a failed equivocation to me.
Anything thoughtful to offer or is this to be the beginning of another snark stream?
That's nice.
How would I know if you are going to keep posting?
If we were around and there was an internet in 1944 would you have challenged FDR for leading the nation in prayer during D-Day?
Well said!
I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but your "challenge" is a stupid and sad thing.
You haven't illustrated anything beyond the anti-religious bias in your own mind. I too, am a person who has been praying and doing the things necessary to take care of myself and prevent the spread of disease. I check the CDC website for the most reliable updates. That's at least three people so far have debunked your absurd and prejudiced claim that those who believe are not likely to take proper action.
I sincerely believe so.
To what point, I have no idea.
Good for you on the second part. On the praying part, do you have the expectation that God (who clearly should be quite aware of this virus and has always had the power to prevent its spread) is going to do anything different based on your prayers? Do you think you change God's mind and cause him to stop the virus?
Actually that is a good use of belief. Religious belief brings comfort. Given nobody could do anything about D-day, providing comfort was net positive.
I pray for my own reasons that are none of your business.
You don't think people at home or soldiers not actually at Normandy were doing things that contributed to the effort there? You need to study history a little more.
Probative questions are as usual ignored.
Imagine the irony of this based on the content your post.
You don't realize that I was speaking of the USA as a whole? Or is it that you think the majority of the USA were able to do things to affect D-day while it was taking place?
As if we don’t need comfort now and it’s any less positive now. How many churches out there that believe in prayer and operate hospitals that use current medical practices as well as prayer and health alternatives? Let’s see. Southern Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Seventh Day Adventist’s, Roman Catholics among others operate hospitals and education institutions in America and around the world to improve the worldly condition in addition to regular prayer.
Yes, the comfort part of prayer is positive. But clearly if one is praying one is thinking that in some way God is going to change His mind and make the virus go away. Why would God do anything different from His grand plan just because you pray?
I favor Trump taking actions to stop the spread of this virus. Prayer is not going to accomplish that. We are on our own and best realize that.
Your questions are not [probative deleted]
People pray for a wide range of reasons. You seem to think religion is all about magic tricks or bartering with God. You really don't know anything about this topic. It's very clear. [deleted]
You avoid my questions and deliver snark.
Your entire approach has been snark.
Just cannot stop with the personal crap can you?
Some people will pray to God asking for strength and guidance. Some will pray for protection, etc. Asking God to act in a certain way logically is pointless since this is all part of God's plan. An omniscient God is not going to change His mind because His creations have prayed.
Fascinating.
[deleted]
Are you kidding? You are jumping all over this with attacks and you have a problem with me responding to your aggression? LOL.
Oh no. I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out how low and disgusting your comments have been.
My comments have been thoughtful and topical. Your misrepresentations, however, are disgusting. Stick with what I write. Read more carefully. You have been in attack mode since comment number one. Calm down.
No, your comments are trollish and filled with prejudice. Congratulations! You managed to crap all over a perfectly nice story. Have a nice freakin' night. What a waste!
Apparently you have not noticed that I am strictly defending myself against your attacks. Look in the mirror if you are concerned that the comments have gone south.
Indeed. Well said throughout this seed.
Exactly.
Therein lies the difference and demonstrates why prayer is useless outside of emotional comfort.
To make this clearer, I even mentioned examples of people thinking that God will take care of situations and then failing to act in a responsible matter. Parents have let their children die by refusing medical treatment. JWs, for example, do not allow blood transfusions. Some here refuse to acknowledge the examples as evidence that some people do indeed put far too much faith in prayer. Instead they twist my argument by claiming my examples are a generalization of ALL people who pray. I spend most of my time correcting these wild distortions only to have them stubbornly repeated and new ones added. Amazing.
Gives me the impression that the intent in not really to communicate but simply to misrepresent and attack.
Excellent examples. I mentioned Christian Scientists in another post too. Also, anti-vaccers due to religious reasons. All examples of how prayer/religion-only can actually directly or indirectly cause harm.
Some people get so defensive that they fail to actually listen.
I tend to agree. That only reinforces what I say about people being irrational.
I’ve never seen anyone here EVER claim that there aren’t people that are that are extreme and if some did, they are by far the minority. There is ZERO doubt of that.
Most readily accept and follow reasonable precautions outside of prayer that help avoid getting infected by such viruses.
Its disingenuous as hell of you to even allude this isn’t the norm in the Christian world.
Well you should have read here where my examples of putting too much faith in prayer were translated into a false allegation that I was claiming that this is how most people of faith operate.
And, right on cue, here you do the same thing. I have never suggested or implied that the norm of the Christian world is to put all hope in prayer thinking that God will just take care of things. Does anyone actually read what people write or is presumption the norm? This is really amazing.
Here comes the ego stroking again. You two should take this act on the road. I suggest starting on college campuses.
You will be readily accepted on most of those.
Quick now .... report it!
We read what you write and we take those words at face value and then you play the word games, trying to spin the whole thing in such a way that illicits argument, to support your preferred anti faith narrative.
Oh and let’s not forget the requisite thinly veiled insult. Gotta get one or two of those in to scratch that itch as well .....
Nothing to see here. SOSDD
And here is another no-value comment.
TiG never even suggested such a thing.
Then your comprehension needs work.
Just think of how the secularists among us would have responded to Lincoln’s day of fasting and repentance or Washington’s days of prayer and Thanksgiving
I completely agree with you.
The bottom line here. Well said.
If only you did, I would not spend the majority of my time dealing with strawman arguments. I laid this out @2.1.15. I broke down a single sentence to mitigate the presumption. If you call that spin then it is obvious that you are purposely pushing a false narrative.
In short, when an author notes that his/her words are misrepresented one should take pause and try then to understand what the author meant. If the author has taken the extra steps to break down his literal words and explain each phrase and one still sticks with the misrepresentation, then that is intellectual dishonesty. It is also amazingly arrogant since it presumes to know what the author meant better than the author.
I would have skipped the prayers and enjoyed the feasts. Knock back an ale and live it up.
[Deleted]
It is strawmen all the way down. So often nowadays, debate is dealing with intentionally mangled interpretations rather than thoughtful arguments.
Feel free to elaborate on your otherwise sweeping generalization.
Indeed. I wouldn't limit it to just mangled. I'd go so far to say there are flat out lies thrown in. At the very least, misrepresenting what you say or making something up and attributing it to you is as good as lying.
careful what you ask for. [Deleted]
It is easy to make an argument if one invents their own facts or (as in this case) puts words in other's mouths rather than spend a minute actually reading what was written. Unfortunately this practice is far too common lately.
I know, right? But that only proves what I said before: people become emotional and irrational. And in their defensiveness, they either make things up or do not comprehend what is actually said.
[Deleted]
Sadly all you have to offer is another low value personal attack but don’t you worry yourself about my reading comprehension.
Its doing just fine .....
What personal attack?
You go right ahead believing that.
[Deleted]
As I sit here after nearly six decades, healthy family, business and a very healthy retirement waiting for me. I’m a lucky guy but I still won’t lose any sleep over any internet experts opinions of my bona fides.
[Deleted]
I am pretty sure comprehension is not the problem. I say this because I almost always give the person the benefit of the doubt. If someone reads my words in an odd way I will explain (or paraphrase) what I meant. Sometimes I have to break it down like I did here.
Now. After all that. If the individual continues to misrepresent, I know it is not comprehension; it is intentional.
You got that exactly right!
So, the seed was about a national day of prayer a president called for in addition to many other measures and precautions. And yet all you can say is look at the 1/2 of 1% of Christians who may rely on prayer only as your reason to attack that the day happened.
It sure didn't help the Chinese under Mao or the Russians under Stalin as their governments murdered 78 Million and 20 Million people respectively.
Where did you get your 0.5% statistic?
Not once did I attack anything. I made points about prayer in context of a pandemic. My subsequent comments were largely in response to a barrage of misrepresentations and snark that followed.
My opening points:
This is simply common sense. If one holds that God (or any powerful force really) has this pandemic covered the individual will not be as likely to take precautions as one who holds that we are on our own to stop this thing. Misrepresenting the above into (the equivalent or variant of): Christians who pray are not going to take precautions is intellectually dishonest.
Here I note that prayer can have therapeutic effects but the critical message is to wash your hands with soap and avoid public contact because the virus can last for days on surfaces.
I do not find the above to be poorly written or confusing yet virtually every comment misrepresented what I actually wrote. Where do you see an attack?
And yet, so many people were inflamed and offended by what you wrote. How do you resolve that conflict? Do you bear any responsibility for how your thoughts are communicated and the response they inspire? Or are we all just evil people out to get you? Or too stupid? Or dishonest?
(I have stayed away from this for a couple of days, but this comment seemed like an opportunity to step back and reflect on the course of this discussion.)
Simple. I have asked people to read what I wrote. And I even broke it down so that the parsing of the sentence is crystal clear. The fact that none (of this group of ' offended ' conservatives) gives even a nod that maybe , possibly they might just have failed to carefully read what I wrote tells me all I need to know.
I will not take responsibility for a false interpretation of my words. Would you?
Further, when I take the time to break down a single sentence with this level of specificity and show that the English words that I used connote something very different from the presumed interpretation, the refusal to even acknowledge a misread speaks volumes. I have pasted this in several comments, here it is yet again:
Breaking it down:
True belief, absence of doubt, complete faith.
This is the belief in question: that God has things covered ; that God will take care of this virus Himself . My statement does not talk about ' belief in God ' but rather ' belief God has things covered '. Big difference. Did you notice?
' As likely ' does not mean ' will not '. It means the sense of urgency is not as high as those who believe it is up to us to stop the virus and there will be no divine help .
My sentence was common sense and obvious. That is, if one were to actually read what I wrote instead of translating this into something akin to or variant of: ' believers are not going to take precautions '. That is not what I wrote nor even close to my meaning. It is a strawman.
Resolve the conflict by reading what I wrote. Your misinterpretation is wrong. I have stated that repeatedly throughout, and have broken it down repeatedly. Ignoring my correction of your misreading of my words is not my problem.
That's about what I figured you would say.
I would think it would be helpful to say something along the lines of "it was not my intention to offend" or "perhaps I could have phrased it better, what I mean to say is . . . "
You know, just for the sake of getting along with people.
Well it is the truth. And, to me, it is glaringly obvious.
That is what I would say to an individual who innocently misunderstood my words. Especially if my words were confusing. In general, my protocol is that if someone misunderstands my words I will explain my intent to them. Now, if I have done that, and the individual insists that their interpretation is correct (implying they know my intent better than me), then I will naturally assume they really are not trying to understand and are willfully pushing a false narrative. Further, and this is at play here, if I go to the trouble of breaking down a single sentence to demonstrate that a clear reading of my words yields exactly what I have explained, and still get the stubborn misrepresentation of my words then there is no doubt that hostility is at play. And even worse, if I have repeatedly pasted this breakdown and not a single budge (except, now, by your @4.1.62) there is no doubt of willful hostility.
To wit, there is a point where one no longer can accept the idea of an innocent misunderstanding. We are long past that point here.
Here is the deal Tacos!. When you and I have interacted in the past in thoughtful discourse (remember our debate on Sanders — we were in vehement disagreement but were mostly civil and mostly focused on the content) my comments remained thoughtful and purely focused on the debate. Neither of us got personal. That is how I prefer to engage people. However, if someone seeks to engage in dishonest tactics with me, I am not going to back down. That is how you operate so you should understand my position.
So, no, I am not going to dishonestly pretend that I think this is an honest misunderstanding. It is not, that is beyond obvious. If someone wants to get along with me, I will easily get along with them. All one need do is focus on the content and not engage in dishonest games.
I gave you my advice. Do as you will.
And I gave you a detailed explanation of my position and supporting rationale. So we should be done.
The time may come where on the religion issues whether stand alone or attached to a political or social issue that we simply talk past them to each other the points we feel need be made to a general audience as if they are not even here. The differences between believers and some secularists here are so great that positive communication is no longer possible. The sheer and utter contempt some have for our beliefs and values is clear for all to see.
Yeah, I suppose that might be for the best. Sometimes folks are more interested in "winning" an argument rather than simply discussing a story.
[Deleted]
Apparently not.
It clearly was and still is.
[Deleted]
[Gordy and XX - enough meta.]
It's a good idea. I have added this issue into my prayers as I am sure many others have.
Why, exactly, is it a good thing? (see @4.1.8)
See 2.1.4
Okay, we will go with Tacos! making your point for you.
Prayer for comfort is a good thing. If praying can keep people from panicking then that is good. But when people think that praying is going to take care of the problem then that is bad. My point.
Denying that there are plenty of people who think that God will fix this issue if they pray is beyond naive; those people who hold that belief are engaging in counter-productive activities just like anti-vaxers.
Whether you understood it when I made the point or when Tacos did doesn't matter to me at all. Why would it? That isn't a reflection on me.
I see nowhere here where anyone has even suggested praying would take care of the problem. In fact, people have gone out of their way to explicitly make the exact opposite point to you. Precaution with prayer. Not prayer instead of precaution. You know that but are simply being combative.
Aren't you the one who often mentions strawmen arguments?
Who here has denied that plenty of people who pray may think God will fix the issue? because someone may think that doesn't mean that they won't take precautions. The point was made by Tacos earlier.
Second time you have mentioned anti-vaxers. Do you think anti-vaxers are all basing their decision on their belief in God? Where do the stats come from to support that?
And I have not stated that anyone here has made that suggestion. And I have acknowledge when people spoke of precaution with prayer. So maybe read what I write rather than simply proclaim.
Again, not once have I stated anything about people here in this article. Read what I write rather than invent.
Because the example holds. You insert the word ALL in your question where I made no such claim.
You talk about strawman arguments, accuse me of making them and do so in a post where that is all you have done.
The example is stupid. It's the very epitome of prejudice and stereotyping. Sure, some small number of people in the world forego vaccines or other medical care for religious reasons. The vast majority of religious people do not.
So, it would be stupid to hold it up as supportive of the idea that praying is a problem. It's like saying black people are criminals or video games turn people into murderers.
You seem to have come here for the sole purpose of arguing.
Why does Trump declaring a National Day of Prayer bother you so much?
What's the real problem?
I did not even imply that it was the majority. It was an example of religious belief leading to extremely poor choices. Strawman!
I never argued that praying is a problem. Pay attention to what I actually write Tacos!. The example I used was of people who will pray (e.g. for their sick child) to get better while denying the vaccination for religious reasons. The other example I used was the JWs who would deny a blood transfusion even to save the life of their child and instead pray for the child's recovery.
Citing these examples does not mean they are the majority of cases. They are examples. See?
Now that is funny. I open with thoughtful topical points and then deal with rebutting allegations and misrepresentations from you and Tacos! and you think I am the one who is here to argue.
It does not. Why do you ask?
You tell me. Why stop making ugly allegations now?
You have a nice noght.
Maybe I'll pray for you, too, tonight.
My questions too difficult to answer?
Then why are you here?
We who are believers stand by everything that Tacos has said through out all of this seeded discussion.
I don’t expect you to stop doing exactly that regarding prayer and religious belief.
Good idea. We believers should pay for the militant and angry secularists among us.
Nope. Too boring, repetitive, circular and inane, though.
Oh, the irony of that statement.
Because it's not actually handling the problem. It's just pandering. Just talk and no action.
The problem is we are dealing with a pandemic for which we are ill prepared for and one's solution is to pray?
Yawn. Typical tripe.
You ALMOST had a valid point there, but that isn't all that has been done, nor WILL it be all that is done.
Still ignoring the verifiable, easy to find, FACT that it simply is NOT the only thing being done, and suggesting that it is is reprehensible and shady.
Once again, prayer WITH precautions---not prayer alone with no precautions.
It seems you don't know the definition of irony.
It is a valid point and I never said that it was all that was or is going to be done. Stop making things up!
See previous statement.
I never said no precautions. Attributing something to me for which I never said is as good as lying. But it's precautions that will help, not prayer.
Inquiring minds want to know!
no action ? Really? It would seem that the day of prayer was all that Trump did Friday in declaring a national emergency according to militant secularists. Like the offense of declaring a national day of prayer negated all the other actions taken.
What you think about what I know or don't know is of no concern of mine. That's your problem.
I didn't say you did. YOU Stop making shit up!
I didn't attribute shit to you. Prayers will not hurt anything except some misguided souls feelings. Too bad!
We believers are definitely under siege here by the secularists embittered by Trump calling for a national day of prayer.
There's that persecution complex showing again.
How long did that take? What about preparing for a possible pandemic in the first place? Especially since we've known about Corona for months now? A national Emergency is just a reaction which may not have even been necessary or required had this issue been dealt with from the get go. This is like calling a fire department after the house has burned down.
Not at all. It's just a meaningless action which won't solve the current problem. It's little more than pretending to do something without actually doing something.
You've already demonstrated what you don't know. Sure isn't my problem.
Your statement implies that I said it was all that was or is going to be done.
Then saying "prayer WITH precautions---not prayer alone with no precautions" was unneccesary.
No, prayers won't do anything at all.
Then it was an unecessary comment, without merit, and shouldn't have been made. I don't give a FUCK what the hell you "think" I know.
If you don't have a problem with it, why bother braying about it? That is ILLOGICAL.
How you interpret stuff is all on you. Take it however you want. Doesn;t matter to me.
That's nice. Prove it!
So you are upset that prayer was included with all the other precautions. You realize that that weekend in March has been an annual national day of prayer since 1988? That the already existing day of prayer was simply modified to pray about this particular situation.
Where did I say I was upset. Prayer as a precaution is useless. It won't protect anyone, much less help with corona. It's nothing more than a personal feel good exercise. But it won't do anything to deal with the current crisis.
President Donald Trump announced Friday on Twitter a National Day of Prayer on Sunday as the country combats the spread of the coronavirus.
The National Day of Prayer will take place on Sunday, March 15.
“We are a country that, throughout our history, has looked to God for protection and strength in times like these,” Trump wrote on Twitter, after making the declaration.
He encouraged all Americans to take time on Sunday to pray for the country.
“No matter where you may be, I encourage you to turn towards prayer in an act of faith,” he wrote. “Together, we will easily PREVAIL!”
The president’s declaration immediately sparked anger from anti-religious critics but drew praise from people of faith.
The president on Friday declared a State of Emergency to help mobilize the country to fight the virus.
“The next eight weeks are critical. We can learn and we will turn a corner on this virus,” Trump said.
Haters reaction to a National day of prayer:
Why do they care? Why do they have such a rancor towards a suggested something, which might bring so many of their fellow citizens some peace? It is a vexing question for many but not for me.
Imo it’s simply a self centered hatred of that which is NOK to them, driven by a deep seeded inferiority complex. But hey, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
You are not wrong.
For President* Trump , asking people to pray is a political exercise.
On his personal level, we can assume he has never prayed. He never mentions praying himself, has never mentioned it in the past, and is almost never seen going to church. His religious connections are limited to photo ops like the one where leading evangelicals "laid hands on" him in the oval office.
Thus, we can see this National Prayer Day as cynical on Trump's part.
But that doesn't necessarily mean it is a futile effort. Fundamentalist Christians will appreciate it.
I don't see much harm in it.
The good of this, as I have noted, is the comforting effect this has on some people. Anything that can reduce panic is good because panic is what causes most of the problems. The ideal situation is to remain calm but be vigil in precautions under the assumption that we are on our own to deal with this.
Isn't it odd that some folks get all worked up over a National Day of Prayer that has absolutely zero effect on them personally?
Don't they have any real problems to worry about?
What exactly is their agenda?
Yes it is a fascinating mentality to be sure. My take:
My town paper has a long list of churches which will not be holding services today. Many are doing on-line services for their parishioners.
I guess that kind of blows the idiotic theory that people who believe in God and pray won't do anything more to combat the virus.
As sane people already knew and acknowledged.
And, of course, you fundamentally misrepresented what I wrote. Strawman. My comment @2.1.15 breaks this down so you have no excuse for continued misrepresentation.
The hell I did. You wrote this: A prime example of the problem with religious belief. Those who truly believe that God has things covered are not going to be as likely to take actions necessary to contain its spread.
And that is unsubstantiated, pure BULLSHIT.
Ah! The old standby argument whenever one is challenged. Old as time and completely stupid.
I din't misrepresent anything you have written, so can that crap.
You just quoted me and still do not understand what I wrote. Instead you continue to misrepresent and argue against the misrepresentation. That is a strawman argument. If you do not want to be called out then do not employ the tactic.
You did and continue to do so. You clearly did not even read @ 2.1.15 . (No surprise there.) You are pretending that I wrote something like: people who believe in God and pray won't do anything . That is a fundamental misrepresentation. Attempt to understand what I wrote:
Breaking it down:
True belief, absence of doubt, complete faith.
This is the belief in question: that God has things covered ; that God will take care of this virus Himself. My statement does not talk about ' belief in God ' but rather ' belief God has things covered '. Big difference. Did you notice?
' As likely ' does not mean ' will not '. It means the sense of urgency is not as high as those who believe it is up to us to stop the virus and there will be no divine help.
I have noticed this tactic happens quite a bit. Blatant misrepresentation of what people write. What is fascinating though is when, after those words are carefully broken down to illustrate the obvious meaning, individuals stubbornly continue with the blatant misrepresentation.
Strawman arguments are easier that direct arguments. But they are dishonest.
I didn't direct post 10 to you.
Sounds like you may have recognized yourself, though, hence the tirade.
SOSDD.
Especially the pet go-to --''STRAWMAN!!!!!!"
LMMFAO!
You state your misrepresentation of my words but that of course has nothing to do with my comment.
[deleted]
No one has misunderstood or mis stated a single thing that he has written here.
I posted facts.
That is all.
Of course not.
golly, I thought god created all living things. isn't covid-19 a living thing? POS/POTUS has bungled this health crisis from day 1. not too hard to guess what I'll be praying for today.
To whom or what do you pray to?
Gray area
cool. that's the area most affected. with religious tithing and offerings now fully documented, due to churches closing, it looks like a lot of right wing political dark money will be drying up very soon. bwah ha ha ha
kind of like the wild-ass claim made by someone earlier that political contributions to the RNC were going to dry up because the checks would bounce because of the stock market tumble.
No validity.
I’ve done all my tithing and offerings via the internet for years.
good for you. think of covid-19 as god dumping some bleach into the gene pool.
More like Satan doing so since all evil and everything bad that has happened is on him due to his rebellion.
That's nice. Prove it!
Of course, if Satan is doing evil, your God just sits back and does nothing. Talk about being useless as a deity.
This is true.
Maybe Trump should follow Obama's example./S
Didn't hear a damn peep out of the left about how Obama handled things. The lame stream media glossed it over as well.
Sounds like both Presidents didn't do enough. So what's your point? When did Obama become the topic?
When hypocrisy reared it's ugly head.
No matter what Trump did it wouldn't be good enough for some.
What could have Trump done that wouldn't have the left screaming bloody murder? What have the Democrats proposed? What are their fixes? Easy to criticize while offer no solutions. If this was so serious why didn't the Democrats in the House get bills rolling when this was supposedly contained to just one Chinese city? Why wait for WHO and the CDC to state the obvious to anyone that was paying attention- that this was an epidemic than would very easily go global.
This is only proving the US still isn't prepared for a pan epidemic; it doesn't matter who is in the White House- or what party holds Congress. The only thing we are learning is that national emergencies are fair game for political sniping. How does something as innocent as a national day of prayer get construed as something evil?
Before you play the atheist card, I am one. I take no offense to a national day of prayer. There are those that are religious- and it is a way to draw people together. Atheists can say those affected by the virus are in our thoughts. Might be worthless sentiment; but sometimes that is all that is needed to bring people together. Instead of the BS reaction we are getting.
With some governors starting to talk about martial law, and calling out the National Guard- we are going to need to come together before this turns into some sick Hollywood movie plot.
Trump needs to stop saying he's done a great job with the virus. Even if he had, which is obviously not true, he shouldn't be saying such things while tens of thousands of people are getting very sick , and some dying.
But Trump cant help himself. Is he is utterly ill equipped to be a real leader. He is a self-promoter.
He is our national leader. It’s his job to fight this virus and try to keep himself and us in as positive an outlook as possible given the situation. We are in this crisis and he is our national leader working our way out of this. We can either rally our country behind him or we can be mouth pieces for the Chinese propaganda ministry or hope for the worst for partisan gain. There are no other alternatives.
It's not so much what he did, but rather what he hasn't done.
Not disband the pandemic response team, appoint an actual doctor or scientist to head the Covid task force, coordinate with all relevant agencies ahead of time to deal with the possibility and/or reduce the risk of Covid spread to the US, get an actual infectious disease expert to address the public on Covid, including safety precautions, cooperate with the Chinese (if feasible) to work together to reduce the spread or develop a treatment to Covid. Those are just what comes off the top of my head.
That's why I hold all politicians in contempt.
Good question. See previous statement.
But we knew there was an outbreak long before it reached our shores. We had advanced warning but the government did nothing. So instead of being proactive in dealing with a then possible pandemic, now we can only be reactive after the fact.
Not evil. Just useless.
Why would I do that?
I never said otherwise. Of course religion can be comforting to some.
Some probably do I'd wager.
What's the old saying? "It's the thought that counts."
Indeed. People are irrational, panicky, hysterical, ect..
That only highlights the necessity of leadership to calm the public and call all hands on deck, so to speak, to deal with this issue.
Bottom line here is that a national Day of Prayer simply offends some folks, and they can't accept it without raising a fuss.
A gigantic fuss over nothing that will affect them in any way.
But, we simply can't have anyone praying, now can we?
i wish the members of the Church of the Perpetually Offended By Something will get something new to talk about, but I realize that is nothing more than wishful thinking.
SOSDD--day after day after day.
Who's offended specifically?
Prayer won't have an effect in any way, other than making some people feel better about themselves.
Who says? No one is stopping anyone from praying.
probably the people bitching about it. Why else bitch about something that has no effect on them personally unless they are offended? Nothing else makes sense.
See #13.
Is that opinion piece supposed to mean anything?
It's something that has no effect, period. It doesn't address, much less contribute to solving the current problem. Perhaps some people want action that can produce more tangible results. Wishful thinking and lip service will accomplish nothing.
Much like prayer.
That's nice. Prove it.
Other steps are being taken to address the problem. Praying won't have any effect on you personally, so I wonder why you keep complaining about it. You seem fixated on something that doesn't concern you and is none of your business.
Oh, are you merely going to pretend that nothing but prayer is being done?
Watch the fucking news, dude! BTW--prove that prayer will accomplish nothing.
I understand you don;t understand what exactly prayer is, how it is utilized, or the personal benefits of prayer. I pity you.
Apparently you think prayer will accomplish something.
If prayers are asking God to address the virus, do you think that this will influence God? (Using the definition of the Christian God.)
God obviously has the power to address this virus. Given He is ostensibly omniscient, God certainly would not need the opinions of mere mortals to guide His decisions; He already knows far more than all of us combined. So it makes no sense, under the Christian definition of God, to think that one can encourage God to do anything. God will execute 'his plan' because He is omniscient and omnipotent. Praying to encourage God to act in a certain way is not logical.
The virus is proceeding per God's will.
Praying for therapeutic reasons — to comfort the person praying — does make sense. No doubt praying makes some people feel better, calms them, etc. Akin to a placebo, this use of prayer is helpful. As long as people continue to take precautions, assuming that we are on our own in this, there is no downside.
Do you think that praying would ever, in any way, cause an omniscient, omnipotent God to act differently?
Apparently you think it doesn't.
In which case the majority of the world clearly disagrees with you and agrees with Tex
Except for a few remotely applicable fallacies you can foist against that fact, you got all that and a bag of chips going against you.
Other than psychological benefits for the praying person, I have yet to see credible evidence that prayer accomplishes any external effects.
Do you have some to offer?
You offer argumentum ad populum? The majority of the world used to think the Earth was flat. You do not recognize the faulty logic you are using?
Which fallacy do you think I have committed? I am convinced by reason and evidence. Thus, as of now, I remain unconvinced that prayer effects reality (e.g. that prayer will in someway cause things to happen such as the quicker elimination of a virus). In what way is that fallacious thinking?
Yes.
I do not think it possible for humans to influence God.
He does? So now you are not only admitting that there IS a God, but you are attributing awesome powers to Him? That's wonderful!
I certainly haven't claimed otherwise. Strawman. Your fave!!
I haven't claimed that humans "encouraging" God is even possible. Strawman.
In my 61 years, I have never met anyone who thinks they "encourage" God by praying. Perhaps you should read more on what prayer actually is.
Interesting claim coming from one who doesn't believe in God's existence.
So all the talk about prayer is pointless.
No. I also don't think that most people who pray think that God will act in any certain way.
God isn't a wishing well.
Yes, happens every day for millions of the faithful. Just ask them. Its clearly not happening to you so its understandable that you wouldn't have any clear evidence. They do and that's what matters.
There it is, called it .... c'mon man ..... you can come up with a few more logic fallacies to support your argument that no person of faith gives a shit about.
You have no faith in the topic at hand so how could you be convinced by anything else?
SOSDD and no one of faith cares about your opinion on the matter so why do you keep trying to sell it?
You did not read where I stated that I am basing my comment on the definition of the Christian God?:
I wrote that explicitly to circumvent the tactic you just used. But, you go there anyway.
Do you not understand the mechanics of a strawman argument? I made a comment. I did not in any way state that you have claimed otherwise. You come back and claim that you have never claimed otherwise and deem my comment a strawman? Read up on strawman arguments because you do not understand them.
See? That is not how strawman arguments work.
LOL you do it again. I make a point and you claim it is a strawman argument.
Again, Texan, a strawman argument has a necessary condition. One must first associate a false argument to one's interlocutor and then argue against that false argument. Nowhere have I even hinted that you have stated it is possible to influence God through prayer. In fact, the point of my comment was to directly ask you to weigh in on that very question. Did you not read this?:
You claim strawman as I present my position yet my comment concludes by asking you to weigh in with your position. It is as if you are simply arguing for the sake of argument with no real intent to communicate.
You have never encountered a person praying for God to do something? So never has a person asked God to help them not strike out at bat? Pray to God to get the job they are trying to get? Pray to God to help a loved one recover from an ailment? Really? Not a single encounter like this in 61 years? Amazing! Well, Texan, it most definitely occurs ... it is commonplace.
Apparently I know more about it than you do.
Again, you fail to recognize that I am operating per the Christian definition of God. My entire comment, to avoid awkward language, presumes the existence of the Christian God.
Well then we have the same opinion on this point. Both of us are not convinced that praying would ever, in any way, cause an omniscient, omnipotent God to act differently.
Sigh. Read and understood every word.
I go where I want, based on your reply.
Sigh. Yes.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
The FIRST clue that I actually read it should have been my ANSWER. How can I answer something I didn't know was asked? Illogical!
Oh, the sheer irony!
Yes, for understanding of what His will for us is.
Maybe you do, but that is a pretty bold statement for someone who doesn't pray and doesn't believe in God. Who cares?
is that what you understand from what I wrote?
Was THIS exchange a clue for you?
You claim evidence exists that prayer has actual effects on reality (other than psychological) but do not deliver it.
You do not realize that you appealed to popularity? You do not realize that your point was fallacious? If the entire planet believes something to be true, does that make it true? When the majority of persons believed the Earth was flat, was the Earth flat?
LOL What? I am not convinced that prayer effect reality so how could I be convinced of anything? Try to do better than that.
I am not trying to sell anything. I am engaging in debate. Well, as best as one can with these 'rebuttals'.
Nothing here to comment on.
Hallelujah!
Hmmm...I wonder if that's proof that prayer does work?
LMAO!
Official Proclamation on the National Day of Prayer for all Americans Affected by the Coronavirus Pandemic and for our National Response Efforts
In our times of greatest need, Americans have always turned to prayer to help guide us through trials and periods of uncertainty. As we continue to face the unique challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic, millions of Americans are unable to gather in their churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, and other houses of worship. But in this time we must not cease asking God for added wisdom, comfort, and strength, and we must especially pray for those who have suffered harm or who have lost loved ones. I ask you to join me in a day of prayer for all people who have been affected by the coronavirus pandemic and to pray for God’s healing hand to be placed on the people of our Nation.
As your President, I ask you to pray for the health and well-being of your fellow Americans and to remember that no problem is too big for God to handle. We should all take to heart the holy words found in 1 Peter 5:7: “Casting all your care upon him, for he careth for you.” Let us pray that all those affected by the virus will feel the presence of our Lord’s protection and love during this time. With God’s help, we will overcome this threat.
On Friday, I declared a national emergency and took other bold actions to help deploy the full power of the Federal Government to assist with efforts to combat the coronavirus pandemic. I now encourage all Americans to pray for those on the front lines of the response, especially our Nation’s outstanding medical professionals and public health officials who are working tirelessly to protect all of us from the coronavirus and treat patients who are infected; all of our courageous first responders, National Guard, and dedicated individuals who are working to ensure the health and safety of our communities; and our Federal, State, and local leaders. We are confident that He will provide them with the wisdom they need to make difficult decisions and take decisive actions to protect Americans all across the country. As we come to our Father in prayer, we remember the words found in Psalm 91: “He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.”
As we unite in prayer, we are reminded that there is no burden too heavy for God to lift or for this country to bear with His help. Luke 1:37 promises that “For with God nothing shall be impossible,” and those words are just as true today as they have ever been. As one Nation under God, we are greater than the hardships we face, and through prayer and acts of compassion and love, we will rise to this challenge and emerge stronger and more united than ever before. May God bless each of you, and may God bless the United States of America.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim March 15, 2020, as a National Day of Prayer for All Americans Affected by the Coronavirus Pandemic and for our National Response Efforts. I urge Americans of all faiths and religious traditions and backgrounds to offer prayers for all those affected, including people who have suffered harm or lost loved ones.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this fourteenth day of March, in the year of our Lord two thousand twenty, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and forty-fourth.
DONALD J. TRUMP
AS THE LORD LEADS, PRAY WITH US…
Sources: White House
Nah, you are just being contrarian like usual.
Like usual my point is made.
That you don't accept that point is your problem not mine.
Amen!
You are right on! Well said.
Lol! 😁👍👏
Wishful thinking indeed. That we pray and that there is a national day of prayer cuts to their very core and deeply offends them. They hate that their “logic” is powerless to dissuade us from our beliefs.
How laughable. No one is trying to dissuade you from believing. Believe whatever nonsense you wish. It just doesn't accomplish anything.
That's nice. Prove it!
There is no empirical evidence supporting any notion that prayer has ever had any tangible effect on anything, outside of one's emotional or mental comfort. Billions of people throughout history and today should be a good study size. And yet, nothing to demonstrate prayer actually ever did anything.
Spectacular way to dodge the challenge.
I asked you to prove that prayer never accomplishes anything.
I did. There is no evidence or proof prayer has ever done anything, despite all the praying that has ever been done. Therefore, my statement stands. What's lacking is evidence that prayer actually does anything, beyond mental or emotional masturbation.
Epic fail in this case then. I asked you to prove that prayer never works. Citing a handful of "studies" doesn't cut it.
Prove prayer doesn't and has never worked--as you claimed.
I didn't ask you to prove that you don't think prayer works.
Prove prayer doesn't work for me.
Who's trying to dissuade anyone from believing exactly?
Studies is part of how the scientific process works. They either affirm or refute a notion or claim. Despite all the praying, there are no studies or any other evidence for that matter which shows prayers produce any tangible effect beyond the psychological. But there are studies which contradict the notion of prayer having such effects. Your automatic dismissal of scientific studies only demonstrates a bias on your part. As for prayer "working" for you, that's merely your claim and nothing more. It's subjective and anecdotal. I'm sure you believe it works.
Texan @12.1.10 has oddly agreed that he thinks praying would not, in any way, cause an omniscient, omnipotent God to act differently. He also thinks that is true for most people.
Remember my comment about panning for gold? On social forums, the amount of crap one must sift through to get a direct answer is massive, but eventually a tiny bit of actual discourse comes through. Maybe by accident, but at least sometimes.
Whaaattt? People really study things to see how they work? They must all be liberals! /s
You can no more prove prayer works than I can that it does.
I'm sure you don't believe it works.
But yet we know that believers who pray and attend services regularly and live their lives according to their beliefs live healthier and longer lives than those who don’t.
✝️🙏👏👍
I never claimed prayer works. Neither is there any evidence whatsoever to suggest that it does, outside of psychological effects.
No, I don't. I think I've made my position on that clear. But then, I don't go by belief either. I prefer facts and evidence.
Those who meditate are generally healthier too. Prayer and meditation share similar psychological effects. Of course, those things alone will not determine who lives longer/healthier or not, as there are many other factors to consider, like nutrition, exercise habits, family history, ect.. But prayer producing a tangible effect outside of one's own mental state or emotional comfort will not have any effect on anything. Neither is there any evidence or study to demonstrate otherwise.
When you have nothing, you make things personal. Got it.
He’s not the one who has got nothing here...
He didn't address my post. Instead, he went personal. Yeah, so nothing.
It seems you are wrong. And you never did answer my question. You just went personal as I said.
I thought I’d see how the president’s call for a day of prayer was playing on Twitter. The response there, judging by a few hundred tweets containing “prayer,” is overwhelmingly negative. I suspect the real numbers are better than this, because some of us are actually praying instead of complaining about it. There are some, though, who slander what they do not understand (Jude 10).
They Mock What They Do Not Understand
Some think the message is prayer in place of science. (I’ve copied all these tweets in below.) What gives them the strange idea that it’s an either-or? Don’t they realize that praying people founded science as we know it, and praying people founded medicine as we know it, too? If even a world-class physicist can make that obviously ignorant mistake, though, I guess it’s no wonder others can, too.
Praying isn’t only about medical answers, anyway. There’s much more to pray for than that in these days.
Others complain that the president is violating the Constitution somehow. One said, “this is a clear violation of the Constitution & our founding fathers who DEMANDED separation of church & state!!!” The anger is palpable. So is the lack of historical awareness. The Founding Fathers called frequently for national days of prayer, so this could hardly be any violation of their intent. There is absolutely no doubt that they would have done the same thing. Even Benjamin Franklin the unbeliever urged leaders to pray:
These Twitter Users Need Our Prayers, Too
Other tweets speak hatred toward the president and toward Christianity. One Twitter user posted, “when will trump announce that he’s got corona so i can start another prayer circle for his death.” Another wrote, “Say I want to rid the country of the disease of Christianity. Would prayer work for that?”
Prayer works, but not for evil purposes, and not like a coin in a vending machine, either. It’s an act of humility before our supreme and holy God, who will answer when and how He wills. I don’t expect them to understand that, and this isn’t the place to explain it in any depth. Those who know prayer, though, know that God hears. That’s all we need to know as we enter into it.
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They won’t like me saying this (they don’t have to like it), but these Twitter users suffer from an infection beyond the reach of all science. It’s not a physical problem like coronavirus, but a spiritual one. Unless they themselves submit to a cure, this infection will lead to spiritual death, far more surely than any virus leads to physical death. But the finality of physical death, which is inevitable for all — by this virus or by other means — reminds us that spiritual death is just as final. It’s far more devastating, though.
So as we pray for the country’s and the world’s physical health, let’s pray for spiritual health, too.
Some sample scoffing tweets. View them with both discernment and Christlike concern.
Prayer in Place of Science?
That which is described in the article above is taking place now here.