The history of Jews, Chinese food, and Christmas, explained by a rabbi

  

Category:  News & Politics

Via:  john-russell  •  2 months ago  •  172 comments

By:   Jamie Lauren Keiles (Vox)

The history of Jews, Chinese food, and Christmas, explained by a rabbi
In the US, Jews have been eating American Chinese food on Christmas for over 100 years.

S E E D E D   C O N T E N T


In the US, Jews have been eating American Chinese food on Christmas for over 100 years.

By Jamie Lauren Keiles@jamiekeiles Updated Dec 25, 2020, 11:38am EST GettyImages_514694012.0.jpg  

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For over a century, American Jews have eaten American Chinese food on Christmas. The annual feast is a holiday tradition that is likely to go on as usual this year, even in the midst of COVID-19 — albeit in the form of delivery or takeout.This pastime has evolved to a near-holy tradition, parodied on Saturday Night Live , analyzed in academic papers, and reaffirmed by Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan.

Perhaps the foremost expert on the practice is Rabbi Joshua Eli Plaut, PhD, executive director of American Friends of Rabin Medical Center, rabbi of Metropolitan Synagogue in New York, and author of A Kosher Christmas , the premier (and only?) comprehensive study of what Jews do at Christmastime.

I spoke to Plaut about Chinese food on Christmas, and why he used to sit on Santa Claus's lap.

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Both Jews and Christmas have existed for a while. When did Jews first ask, "What should we do on Christmas?"
It has been a question for as long as Christmas has existed, because Jews have always felt like outsiders. But how they felt specifically was really a function of their status in society. In Eastern Europe, for instance, Jews were not very assimilated. Christmas was a night of possible pogroms and violence, with so many celebrants, often drunk, going from house to house. Jews did not go to the synagogue to study. They stayed at home for physical safety reasons. If they did anything, they might play cards or chess.

In Western Europe, after the French Revolution, Jews were more assimilated. There, they had more freedom to wonder, "Do I bring a Christmas tree into my home? Do I have a holiday meal? Do I give out gifts?" The early Zionist Theodor Herzl was a secular Jew, and he had a Christmas tree in his salon. After the Chief Rabbi of Vienna came to visit, he wrote something in his diary like, "I hope the Rabbi doesn't think less of me because of this. Then again, what do I care what he thinks?"

Okay, so tell me when eating Chinese food on Christmas first comes into the picture. Is that a Jewish-American tradition?
Yes. It begins at the end of the 19th century, on the Lower East Side, where Jewish and Chinese immigrants lived in close proximity. The very first mention of American Jews eating in a Chinese restaurant dates to 1899, when the American Hebrewjournal criticized Jews for eating at non-kosher restaurants. By 1936, a publication called the East Side Chamber News reported at least 18 Chinese tea gardens and chop suey eateries in heavily-populated Jewish neighborhoods. All of these were within close walking distance of Ratner's, which was then the most famous Jewish dairy restaurant in Manhattan.

Jews would go out for Chinese food on Sundays, when they felt left out of church lunch. It was a gradual transition from the traditional diet of Eastern Europe, to eating American Chinese food, to eating other pan-Asian cuisines, like Indian food. I like to say that, within a hundred years of arriving in New York, the average Jew was more familiar with sushi than gefilte fish.

In the last 35 years, Chinese restaurants on Christmas have really become this sort of temporary community where Jews in the United States can gather to be with friends and family. It's a secular way to celebrate Christmas, but it's also a time to shut out Christmas and announce your Jewish identity in a safe environment.

Was there any reason, beyond proximity, that Jews wound up eating Chinese food, as opposed to some other immigrant cuisine?
In terms of kosher law, a Chinese restaurant is a lot safer than an Italian restaurant. In Italian food, there is mixing of meat and dairy. A Chinese restaurant doesn't mix meat and dairy, because Chinese cooking is virtually dairy-free.

In Chinese-American cooking, if there is any pork [which is not a kosher food], it is usually concealed inside something, like a wonton. A lot of Jews back then — and even now — kept strict kosher inside the home but were more flexible with foods they ate at restaurants. Sociologist Gaye Tuchman wrote about this practice. She described [the plausible deniability of non-kosher ingredients] as safe treyf. [ Treyf is the Yiddish word for non-kosher.] A lot of Jews considered the pork in Chinese food to be safe treyf , because they couldn't see it. That made it easier to eat.

In your research for this book, did you come across anything about Chinese food and Christmas written from a Chinese-American perspective?
I actually found a citation from 1935, in the New York Times, about a restaurant owner named Eng Shee Chuck who brought chow mein to the Jewish Children's Home on Christmas Day. If you were to interview Chinese restaurant owners, they'd tell you that Christmas is their biggest day of the year, outside of probably the Chinese New Year. If you want a more thorough understanding, though, you should probably go talk to some restaurant owners in Chinatown.

Sometimes my family eats Chinese food on Christmas, but we always go to the movies. When did that become an established Jewish Christmas tradition?
When Jews began to settle on the Lower East Side of Manhattan between the 1880s and the 1920s, they were poor immigrants. They worked in sweatshops and lived in tenement housing. In their time off, they would go to the newly opened nickelodeons. For between one cent and five cents, they could see a very early form of a movie. By 1909, there were 42 nickelodeons adjacent to the Lower East Side and 10 uptown in Jewish Harlem. Christmas was just another day off, so these early movies attracted big crowds.

We know from the Yiddish press that Christmas became a popular day for the opening of new Yiddish theater productions. It was a day off from work, so what do you do? You can stay home, or you can go to the nickelodeons, or the Yiddish theater. Eventually, decades later, you could go have a meal in a Chinese restaurant.

What do you usually do on Christmas?
For many years I was researching this book. This year, I'll be with my family in a small town, where there are no real restaurants open. We will probably play a board game or watch Netflix.

What did you do on Christmas growing up?
I never went to Chinese restaurants. We'd go skating in front of the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree, and then we'd have hot chocolate with marshmallows. I have great memories of Christmas. My mother would take me to sit on Santa Claus's lap. When I was writing this book, I asked her, "Why did you take me — the son of a rabbi! — to sit on Santa Claus's lap?" She said, "Everybody in America does it, so why shouldn't we?" She knew I was secure in my Jewish identity.


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JohnRussell
Professor Principal
1  seeder  JohnRussell    2 months ago

About 30 years ago my sister married a Jewish guy. I can recall asking him at some point early on what Jewish people do Christmas, if anything. And he told me the same things that are in this article. 

 
 
 
devangelical
Masters Expert
1.1  devangelical  replied to  JohnRussell @1    2 months ago

simple explanation. what other restaurants were/are open on xmas day. a couple decades of that and poof, it becomes a tradition.

when I was a kid growing up in suburbia, our religious beliefs had no bearing on my friends and I. all of the jewish kids I knew celebrated hanukah and xmas, and all the other kids were jealous. our childish thinking was strictly commercial, 12 days of xmas mornings. what kid wouldn't want that? one of my fondest 60's memory as a child was one whole side of my family meeting at the lotus room on xmas eve, 20 of us and my aunt ordering for everyone, because "only she knew how to order from the chinamen". her dad was a traveling revival preacher across bfe texas and they always had chinese xmas day.

 
 
 
charger 383
PhD Quiet
2  charger 383    2 months ago

Christmas has become such a big holiday everybody should be able to enjoy the day.  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
2.1  Krishna  replied to  charger 383 @2    2 months ago
Christmas has become such a big holiday everybody should be able to enjoy the day.  

But is everybody actually. able to enjoy it? After all, "many people are saying" that there's a "War on Christmas"!

Heck, strange as it may seem, I've known people to claim that "White Christians" are actually the most discriminated against of all groups!

(I don't mean to say that there's actually even a person like that on this site, but....)

 
 
 
Drakkonis
Junior Guide
2.1.1  Drakkonis  replied to  Krishna @2.1    2 months ago
Heck, strange as it may seem, I've known people to claim that "White Christians" are actually the most discriminated against of all groups!

I'm not sure that discrimination would be the best word for what's going  on. I would say that white Christians, especially if they are straight male, are being scapegoated as the country's biggest problem by a number of groups out there. Perhaps it may turn to actual persecution if such groups attain significant power. 

 
 
 
SteevieGee
Junior Silent
3  SteevieGee    2 months ago

Mrs. Gee and I, being good citizens and not celebrating xmas with anybody else this year, embraced the Jewish tradition this year.  We ordered Chinese takeaway and it was really a nice evening.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
3.1  Krishna  replied to  SteevieGee @3    2 months ago
Mrs. Gee and I, being good citizens and not celebrating xmas with anybody else this year, embraced the Jewish tradition this year.  We ordered Chinese takeaway and it was really a nice evening.

This country is very diverse. And while the media likes to play up conflict between groups (or even individuals) the fact is that many people of different backrounds do get along.

And with Jews and Christians specifically, they do often like each other, many even appreciating the others cultural values

I meant to post this earlier-- in time for Christmas! (But I got involved in other things).

In any event-- its a nice Christmas Video--- and certainly related to the topic!

ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS...JEWS!

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
4  Bob Nelson    2 months ago

Good seed, John.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
4.1  Split Personality  replied to  Bob Nelson @4    2 months ago

I agree.  I have Jewish relatives and have sometimes joined them for Chinese when I was much younger.  Not a bad tradition.

Nowadays, at our age, with all of the people who have passed before us, we don't care if it's pizza or sub sandwiches

as we are still alive to enjoy each others company and reminisce

without a lot of BS.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5  Tacos!    2 months ago

I don't mean to sound hostile, but this may come off that way. I'm not hostile - just not sympathetic. This story implies there is some kind of problem to be overcome.

I guess I don't understand why Jews would need or want a "Christmas tradition." It doesn't make sense. It's not a holiday for them. Nobody cares what Christians do on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Why should anyone (especially Jews) care what Jews, as an ethnic group, do on Christmas?

It has been a question for as long as Christmas has existed, because Jews have always felt like outsiders.

Too bad. Be a Christian then, if you don't want to feel left out. Does Christianity owe it to other faiths to go out of its way to include them? Why would they even want that? Wouldn't that be forcing your religion on others? This article makes it sound like Christianity uniquely excludes other groups. That's ridiculous.

It begins at the end of the 19th century, on the Lower East Side

OK, so then can we acknowledge that it has nothing to do with the oppression or bigotry characteristic of European society from centuries ago? 

a Chinese restaurant is a lot safer than an Italian restaurant.

I don't understand why these are the only two choices. Are jewish restaurants closed on Christmas? Why would they need to seek out other types of cuisine?

It was a day off from work, so what do you do?

First of all, it's not a day off for everyone, but even if it is a day off, just treat it like you treat any other day off - Memorial Day, Veterans Day, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, whatever. Not everybody participates in those holidays in the same way either.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.1  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago

This story implies there is some kind of problem to be overcome.

I don't mean to say you're totally wrong, but....

Is the story implying it..or are you inferring it?

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.1.1  Tacos!  replied to  Krishna @5.1    2 months ago

Either way. I have a take. I wrote it down. People have the opportunity to address it, but it looks like they are just going to be irritated by it instead. Oh well.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago
I don't mean to sound hostile, but this may come off that way. I'm not hostile - just not sympathetic. This story implies there is some kind of problem to be overcome.

After reading your entire comment I would say that you seem to be the one wanting to create a problem. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.2.1  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @5.2    2 months ago

Then you're mistaken, and apparently choosing to ignore the very words you quoted.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.3  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago
Why should anyone (especially Jews) care what Jews, as an ethnic group, do on Christmas?

I don't mean to dispute what you said. 

But.

I have known people (even Jews) who do care what Jews do on Christmas!!!

OTOH, I have also known other people (also even some Jews) who do not care what Jews do on Christmas.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.3.1  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Krishna @5.3    2 months ago

Why would it be a matter of "caring" what Jews do on Christmas Day?  Why wouldn't it just be a matter of it being interesting? The rabbi in the article thought the topic was interesting enough to write a book about it. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.3.2  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @5.3.1    2 months ago
Why would it be a matter of "caring" what Jews do on Christmas Day? 

Well, if I interpret correctly what Tacos! said, he cares...(or at least cares enough to post a comment about it...and a long comment at that!

Personally, I don't really care what Jews...or for that matter any racial, religious or ethnic group, does on Christmas. (At long as its not" immoral, illegal, or fattening!").

(/bad joke)

From time to time i am interested in what people, both individually as well as as groups, think ... and  how they act. And why. Also in various "belief systems"-- be they religious, "scientific", "superstitious" or other.

I generally don't like to reveal much personal information on social media sites, but I will say that one of my major interests (as well as training and experience) is in the field of Psychology. Psychology of both indviduals as well as groups. And especdially unconventional theories and "alternative" approches,and also in the "sub-field" of Psychology and Creativity. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.3.3  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @5.3.2    2 months ago
immoral, illegal, or fattening

I knew that was a (somewhat) famous quote, but couldn't place the surce. SoI googled it-- FWIW its from Alexander Woolcott (PBUH):

Alexander Woollcott (January 19, 1887 – January 23, 1943) was an American critic and journalist known for his involvement in the Algonquin Round Table and his writings in The New Yorker magazine. All the things I really like to do are either illegalimmoral, or fattening.

(Get Smarter Here... or not...your choice!)

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.3.4  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @5.3.1    2 months ago
Why would it be a matter of "caring" what Jews do on Christmas Day?  Why wouldn't it just be a matter of it being interesting?

That's a semantic difference I won't bother with. The point is there is significance attached to the inquiry. "What do Jews do on Christmas?" is, to me, about as significant as asking "What do Jews do on Tuesday?" From a Jewish perspective, it's just another day, isn't it? As I said, no one asks "What do Christians do on Yom Kippur?" and with good reason.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.4  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago
I guess I don't understand why Jews would need or want a "Christmas tradition." It doesn't make sense. It's not a holiday for them.

Well, for starters...do you want to understand why Jews would  need or want "a Christmas tradition"? Or would you'd prefer to just sit back and make assumptions...and over-generalizations?

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.4.1  Tacos!  replied to  Krishna @5.4    2 months ago
Well, for starters...do you want to understand why Jews would  need or want "a Christmas tradition"? Or would you'd prefer to just sit back and make assumptions...and over-generalizations?

Well, let's see . . . do you know what a question mark is? It doesn't usually follow assumptions or over-generalizations. It's an inquiry. It invites a thoughtful and informative response. It is a sign requesting knowledge. There are at least 7 question marks in my comment. There are also statements of my personal opinion that are placed to invite similarly thoughtful responses.

Speaking of over-generalizations, isn't an article or book that basically says "Jews do [X] on Christmas" already making an over-generalization? Perhaps you could see my comment as an attempt to possibly poke holes in that over-generalization.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.5  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago

"I don't mean to sound hostile," but what was your motive in joining the Light Unto The Nations group?

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.5.1  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.5    2 months ago

Apparently your personal inquiry is considered to be on-topic, although why that is so is a mystery to me.

I asked questions and expressed thoughts directly about the topic. You don't seem to be interested in that. Maybe you should be asking yourself why you're here.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.6  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago
It has been a question for as long as Christmas has existed, because Jews have always felt like outsiders.
Too bad. Be a Christian then, if you don't want to feel left out.

Isn't that what Christian leaders said (or words to that effect) to Jews (well, to Muslims as well) during the Inquisition in Spain?

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.6.1  Tacos!  replied to  Krishna @5.6    2 months ago
Isn't that what Christian leaders said (or words to that effect) to Jews (well, to Muslims as well) during the Inquisition in Spain?

No, I think it was more along the lines of convert, die, or get out. This is America, and you can chose to be whatever you want. That has always been our way.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
5.6.2  Krishna  replied to  Tacos! @5.6.1    2 months ago
No, I think it was more along the lines of convert, die, or get out

Well, you think wrong.

It was convert-- or endure hours and days of the most gruesome, barbaric tortures.

If you can stomach it, you might want to read up on the Inquisition and learn what really went on.

[Deleted]

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.6.3  Tacos!  replied to  Krishna @5.6.2    2 months ago

Your personal attacks notwithstanding, why are you trying to argue with me about the Inquisition?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago

Let me take a stab at this:

I guess I don't understand why Jews would need or want a "Christmas tradition." It doesn't make sense. It's not a holiday for them. Nobody cares what Christians do on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Why should anyone (especially Jews) care what Jews, as an ethnic group, do on Christmas?

And you just knocked it out of the park with that answer. How many Christians are there in this world? I'll help you. 2.4 billion. That's a lot. Do you know how many Jews there are? I'll help you. 14.7 million. Do you see how Jews could feel lost in a crowd. Yeah, you have no reason to celebrate Rosh Hashana. The 20 some odd Jews you knew in your lifetime probably left little impression on you. Btw... for US stats it's 205 million Christians to 6 million Jews... A Jew could get lost in a crowd like that, you thinK? A Christian, not so much. 

It has been a question for as long as Christmas has existed, because Jews have always felt like outsiders. Too bad. Be a Christian then, if you don't want to feel left out.

OK, so you said you didn't want to come across as hostile and then you make a comment like that. No Jews don't want to be Christian, but that doesn't mean they don't enjoy the beauty of Christmas (which for the most part was stolen from pagan faiths, but that is a whole other story). So instead of longing for the bells and whistles of Christmas, they developed their own traditions to do, which evolved naturally, if you read the article. No harm in that is there?

OK, so then can we acknowledge that it has nothing to do with the oppression or bigotry characteristic of European society from centuries ago? 

Who said it was? This is strictly an American Jewish Tradition. 

I don't understand why these are the only two choices. Are jewish restaurants closed on Christmas? Why would they need to seek out other types of cuisine?

This I can answer, being a New Yorker. Most other restaurants are closed for Christmas, but not Chinese. That coupled with the proximity to the two immigrant neighborhoods brought about the tradition.

First of all, it's not a day off for everyone, but even if itisa day off, just treat it like you treat any other day off - Memorial Day, Veterans Day, 4th of July, Thanksgiving, whatever. Not everybody participates in those holidays in the same way either.

All those other holidays are not religious ones. Christmas is. It is unique to the holidays that we observe a religious holiday as a nation since we are a nation without a national faith. The only other exception is Easter, which falls on a Sunday and usually coincides with Passover, so it is hardly noticed by those not observing. 

I hope that helped. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.1  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7    2 months ago
Do you see how Jews could feel lost in a crowd.

So is Christmas or the proliferation of Christians supposed to be inherently anti-Jew?

The 20 some odd Jews you knew in your lifetime probably left little impression on you.

What is that supposed to mean? A personal attack? You have no idea how many Jews I have known and are in no position to speak about what kind of impression they might have made on me.

Who said it was?

It was mentioned directly before getting to the part about America. Why mention it if no connection is intended?

OK, so you said you didn't want to come across as hostile and then you make a comment like that. 

What offends you is more about you than it is about me. I told you it was not my intent to be hostile and you chose to ignore that. You chose to be angry over an offense that was never inflicted.

So instead of longing for the bells and whistles of Christmas, they developed their own traditions to do, which evolved naturally, if you read the article. No harm in that is there?

I don't see harm in it at all. I'm just puzzled at the alleged necessity. There are many traditions in the world that I do not take part in. Some of them very popular. I do not feel it necessary to make some gesture or invent some tradition just become some other group is doing something that doesn't interest me on a given day.

Most other restaurants are closed for Christmas, but not Chinese. That coupled with the proximity to the two immigrant neighborhoods brought about the tradition

I understand that, but it doesn't explain why they can't eat at a Jewish restaurant.

It is unique to the holidays that we observe a religious holiday as a nation

I certainly understand that it is unique and obviously very popular. I just don't see how that translates into a need to do something special yet different, much less eating Chinese.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.7.2  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.1    2 months ago
I understand that, but it doesn't explain why they can't eat at a Jewish restaurant.

Ridiculous. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.3  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @5.7.2    2 months ago

Why is it ridiculous? Is there no such thing a Jewish restaurant?

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.7.4  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.3    2 months ago

Why does the prospect of Jews eating Chinese food on Christmas offend you? It is ridiculous that it offends you. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.5  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @5.7.4    2 months ago
Why does the prospect of Jews eating Chinese food on Christmas offend you? It is ridiculous that it offends you.

Where did you get the idea that I was offended by it? I most certainly am not offended. I am puzzled and curious. I can't imagine why I would be offended.

Are you going to answer my previous question?

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.6  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.1    2 months ago
So is Christmas or the proliferation of Christians supposed to be inherently anti-Jew?

Where did I say that? In fact, that statement is a total contortion of what I was saying.

What is that supposed to mean? A personal attack? You have no idea how many Jews I have known and are in no position to speak about what kind of impression they might have made on me.

How is that a personal attack? I am only connecting the dots. If you actually knew as many Jews as you claim, then you would be able to answer all of the above questions.  All Christians I know, know this. This fact is nothing new. There are even jokes about it.

"If the Jews are 6,000 years old and the Chinese culture 2,000, what did the Jews eat for 4,000 years?"

I told you it was not my intent to be hostile and you chose to ignore that.

And then you make a comment like this:

Too bad. Be a Christian then, if you don't want to feel left out

Too bad? You mean Jews are not allowed to enjoy Christmas without being Christian? And what does that have to do with eating Chinese food on Christmas?

I don't see harm in it at all. I'm just puzzled at the alleged necessity. There are many traditions in the world that I do not take part in. Some of them very popular. I do not feel it necessary to make some gesture or invent some tradition just become some other group is doing something that doesn't interest me on a given day.

It's not a necessity and it happened quite by accident, which the article explained so plainly. But also being such a minority here, Jews felt the need to have their own traditions on a day that everyone is doing something. Of course, you feel no need. You are part of the majority here enjoying the day here.

I understand that, but it doesn't explain why they can't eat at a Jewish restaurant. I certainly understand that it is unique and obviously very popular. I just don't see how that translates into a need to do something special yet different, much less eating Chinese.

It's in the article why.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.7  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.6    2 months ago
Where did I say that? In fact, that statement is a total contortion of what I was saying.

I didn't say you said it. I asked you if that was the implication of what you had said. All you had to do was answer yes or no. Many times if a minority group feels marginalized in some way, they hold the majority responsible for that marginalization. It's not an unreasonable inquiry here.

How is that a personal attack? I am only connecting the dots.

Covering up your personal attacks by calling it "connecting the dots" does not make your comment any less about me personally.

If you actually knew as many Jews as you claim

I never made any claim about how many Jews I know. Talk about a contortion!

You mean Jews are not allowed to enjoy Christmas without being Christian?

Not at all. If they enjoy Christmas, that is perfectly fine with me. In truth, I don't much care what they think of Christmas.

(See how that works? You ask a simple question about the possible impact of what I have said, and you get a simple answer in clarification. Nothing from me about you contorting my words.)

And what does that have to do with eating Chinese food on Christmas?

I wouldn't know. It was your question. You're the one asking the question about Jews enjoying Christmas.

Of course, you feel no need. You are part of the majority here enjoying the day here.

It's not as obvious as you make it out to be. In recent years, many schools and businesses have taken to closing on the Jewish holidays. The holiday doesn't involve them, but many Christians suddenly get a day off. So far, I haven't heard anything about them doing anything special for the day (like having an unusual meal) beyond treating it like a regular day off.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.8  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.7    2 months ago

My computer ate my whole response... so I will make this brief. 

  1. I don't insult people. 
  2. Jews don't feel marginalized and eat Chinese food to stop that feeling. I suggest reading the article.
  3. Having days off from school is not a national holiday. It is done because of many reasons, one being that many teachers and students would be missing school otherwise. It is often regional. 
 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.9  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.8    2 months ago
I don't insult people.

Yeah, well I declared that I wasn't intending to be hostile or insulting and you and these other people don't seem to care, so I don't see why you think your simple declaration should carry any more weight with me than my word did with you.

And then you went on to say,

I suggest reading the article

which I obviously did since I quoted parts of it and replied to them directly. But I guess that's not insulting either, because you say so.

Having days off from school is not a national holiday.

It still requires that you do something different with your day than the usual routine. Depending on where you live, there might be a little of people actually talking about it.

There are also other national holidays that might be ethnic or cultural that a lot of people celebrate, but maybe others don't feel included. MLK day, for one. Anyone who says anything negative about that day is generally called a racist. A person might actually feel socially pressured to make a show of celebrating the day. Columbus Day is another. Although in contrast, many people are offended by Columbus Day. However, Italians insist it's a holiday for their heritage and they want to keep it, but those claims are dismissed. There is, apparently, some angst around a few holidays.

My position is that in America you can take part in these things or not. You shouldn't feel marginalized or insulted if someone else chooses to celebrate something that is not a priority for you personally.

My question about Jews at Christmas is: where you can, why not go about your ordinary day? Eat Kosher. Who's stopping you?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.7.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.6    2 months ago
"If the Jews are 6,000 years old and the Chinese culture 2,000, what did the Jews eat for 4,000 years?"

Well, that needs to be amended. The Chinese culture is 5.000 years old, so the Jews didn't have the pleasure of eating Chinese food for only 1,000 years.  LOL

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.7.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.9    2 months ago
"My position is that in America you can take part in these things or not. You shouldn't feel marginalized or insulted if someone else chooses to celebrate something that is not a priority for you personally."

Then why are you so concerned that Jews eat Chnese food on Christmas?

"My question about Jews at Christmas is: where you can, why not go about your ordinary day? Eat Kosher. Who's stopping you?"

Ah, but YOUR words were:

"Are jewish restaurants closed on Christmas? Why would they need to seek out other types of cuisine?"

You are questioning why Jews don't eat in a Jewish restaurant on Christmas day.  Maybe Jews actually have minds of their own and make their own choices about where they eat on ANY day, and whose business is it to even suggest that they think Jews should only eat in a Jewish restaurant on Christmas Day. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
5.7.12  Bob Nelson  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.7.10    2 months ago

... and I kinda doubt that kosher rules were the same 6000 years ago!

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.13  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.9    2 months ago
which I obviously did since I quoted parts of it and replied to them directly. But I guess that's not insulting either, because you say so.

I'm sorry Tacos, but I didn't see you quote anything from the article. What I did notice that seemed to miss the entire point of the article which was quite benign about how a new tradition got started. It was just a fun read. 

There are also other national holidays that might be ethnic or cultural that a lot of people celebrate, but maybe others don't feel included. MLK day, for one. Anyone who says anything negative about that day is generally called a racist. A person might actually feel socially pressured to make a show of celebrating the day. Columbus Day is another. Although in contrast, many people are offended by Columbus Day. However, Italians insist it's a holiday for their heritage and they want to keep it, but those claims are dismissed. There is, apparently, some angst around a few holidays.

We have two types of national holidays. One that the whole country closes down and the other it doesn't. The MLK holiday the whole country doesn't close down. It is a day given in honor of a person, much like Presidents day, which the whole country doesn't close down. They are different from Thanksgiving, Independence Day, and Christmas.

As for Columbus Day, there is a pull and push about it since he is a controversial person in history with two opposing sides. That is not the case with Jews eating Chinese food.

My position is that in America you can take part in these things or not. You shouldn't feel My position is that in America you can take part in these things or not. You shouldn't feel marginalized or insulted if someone else chooses to celebrate something that is not a priority for you personally.if someone else chooses to celebrate something that is not a priority for you personally.

Jews don't feel marginalized or insulted. They were just trying to fill the void with something to do on a national holiday where everyone else was doing something. 

My question about Jews at Christmas is: where you can, why not go about your ordinary day? Eat Kosher. Who's stopping you?

Jews can eat Kosher any time. This whole article was about how a new tradition that happened by accident. Btw, most Jews, with the exception of the orthodox don't eat kosher most of the time. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.14  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.7.11    2 months ago
Then why are you so concerned that Jews eat Chnese food on Christmas?

I don't know where you get that I am concerned. I have asked questions on the topic, but all you want to do is talk about me or the motivations you imagine I have. Why can't you stay on topic?

You are questioning why Jews don't eat in a Jewish restaurant on Christmas day.

Yeah, that's literally the topic of the seed.

whose business is it to even suggest that they think Jews should only eat in a Jewish restaurant on Christmas Day

Well, Jews for starters. According to the seed,

The very first mention of American Jews eating in a Chinese restaurant dates to 1899, when the American Hebrew journal criticized Jews for eating at non-kosher restaurants.

And I'm not criticizing. I'm just asking why.

Maybe Jews actually have minds of their own and make their own choices about where they eat on ANY day

I would hope so. Although the suggestion that they developed a tradition in response to the social pressures of other groups suggests otherwise.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.15  Tacos!  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.13    2 months ago
I'm sorry Tacos, but I didn't see you quote anything from the article.

Then you didn't read the comment @5 you replied to very carefully. I quoted the seed four times. I even used the Blockquote function.

Jews don't feel marginalized or insulted.

From the article:

Jews have always felt like outsiders
 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.13    2 months ago
the entire point of the article which was quite benign about how a new tradition got started. It was just a fun read. 

This.  I'm not even sure how this turned into a debate.  I don't have many Jewish friends, because there is not a very large Jewish population anywhere I've lived.  But I am interested in learning about their customs, beliefs, and traditions (even new, unwritten ones that are more Jewish "pop culture") that might be different from those I've grown up with, because, well, just because.  They can just be fun facts, without being bones of contention.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.17  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.7.16    2 months ago
I am interested in learning about their customs, beliefs, and traditions (even new, unwritten ones that are more Jewish "pop culture") that might be different from those I've grown up with, because, well, just because. 

Exactly Sandy! It was meant to be informative and fun. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.18  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.9    2 months ago
where you can, why not go about your ordinary day? Eat Kosher. Who's stopping you?

Tuesday is an ordinary day for me, but I sometimes get takeout (Taco Tuesday, amirite?).  What's stopping me from eating at home?  I get sick of cooking at home sometimes.  Probably the same for many Jewish people.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.19  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.15    2 months ago
Jews have always felt like outsiders.....

You can not cherry-pick one line without context that follows:

But how they felt specifically was really a function of their status in society. In Eastern Europe, for instance, Jews were not very assimilated. Christmas was a night of possible pogroms and violence, with so many celebrants, often drunk, going from house to house. Jews did not go to the synagogue to study. They stayed at home for physical safety reasons. If they did anything, they might play cards or chess.

That is not about being marginalized. That is being treated as something other than the society at large and abused by some of them. But that is what is unique about America. That didn't happen here and so, this is about how a new tradition arose for Christmas. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.20  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.9    2 months ago
Eat Kosher.

I think this might be where some confusion is originating.  Some Jews are strict about keeping kosher.  Most aren't.  So, while YOU may think non-kosher food is something out of the ordinary for them, it may not actually be so.  If THEY don't forbid themselves non-kosher food, then why wouldn't they eat Chinese food?  Why should they only eat at home or at kosher restaurants?  Variety is the spice of life.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.21  Tacos!  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.7.20    2 months ago
Why should they only eat at home or at kosher restaurants?

I would never - and have not - suggested otherwise.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.22  Tacos!  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.7.20    2 months ago
So, while YOU may think non-kosher food is something out of the ordinary for them, it may not actually be so.

I don't care if they keep kosher or not. However, the story explicitly states that this was not only a newly created tradition (compared to the long march of Jewish history), but a controversial one at that. Common sense should tell us that it was out of the ordinary when it started.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.23  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.21    2 months ago
I would never - and have not - suggested otherwise.

These were your words.

My question about Jews at Christmas is: where you can, why not go about your ordinary day? Eat Kosher. Who's stopping you?

Reads like a suggestion to me.

The author, who is Jewish, is explaining why eating Chinese food on Christmas (and Sundays) is ordinary for many Jews.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.24  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.22    2 months ago
but a controversial one at that

It seems, from the article, that it was controversial a century or more ago, but is no longer considered to be controversial.  As with many religious groups, the rules have loosened over the last century.  Jews can now have a cheeseburger, or some orange chicken.  Christian women can now show their ankles.  Neither is, at this point in time, considered to be controversial.  But some people might be interested in learning when the American Jewish tradition of eating Chinese food on Christmas started, the same as some people are interested in when hemlines rose to mid-calf.  It's just an interesting tidbit of information.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.25  Tacos!  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.7.23    2 months ago
Reads like a suggestion to me.

Do suggestions usually end in question marks? At most, I am encouraging people to live their own lives as they normally would. Somehow that is being construed as offensive. Talk about looking for a problem!

This article says Jews have always felt like outsiders. I would hope that is not true. I would never want them to feel like outsiders. If they would like it, I would be happy to have Jewish friends over for Christmas dinner.

For reasons unexplained, the article goes on to say that on Christmas, Jews were faced with a choice of eating either Chinese or Italian. It has never been explained (and I have asked multiple times) why simply eating Kosher at a Jewish restaurant was/is not an option on that day. Apparently asking such a fundamental question is also offensive.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.26  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.25    2 months ago

"Eat Kosher" was not followed by a question mark, Tacos.  They're telling you that they're voluntarily choosing not to eat kosher, and you're the one who has consistently questioned that.

It has never been explained (and I have asked multiple times) why simply eating Kosher at a Jewish restaurant was/is not an option on that day.

Maybe it is an option.  Maybe they'd rather have fried rice and orange chicken.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.7.27  Tacos!  replied to  sandy-2021492 @5.7.26    2 months ago
"Eat Kosher" was not followed by a question mark, Tacos.

Yeah, but it was surrounded by two questions that aren't being answered. I also just got through explaining that my words were meant to encourage, not order or demand or coerce.

They're telling you that they're voluntarily choosing not to eat kosher, and you're the one who has consistently questioned that.

What is wrong with questioning it? Are we not allowed to ask questions around here?

Maybe it is an option.  Maybe they'd rather have fried rice and orange chicken.  

Yeah maybe. But maybe isn't a definitive answer. And it still doesn't tie in to all the other context in the article.

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
5.7.28  sandy-2021492  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.27    2 months ago
What is wrong with questioning it?

Of course you're allowed to question it.  But if somebody goes around asking people why they're eating what they're eating, and not eating what some assume they should be eating, and not listening to the explanations repeatedly given, then that comes across as unnecessarily belligerent. 

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
5.7.29  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  Tacos! @5.7.22    2 months ago
Common sense should tell us that it was out of the ordinary when it started.

It has always been. There have always been Jews who followed the biblical law, those that followed Talmudic law, and those that question both and that is why there are so many different denominations of Jews. 

 
 
 
Ender
PhD Principal
5.7.30  Ender  replied to  Perrie Halpern R.A. @5.7.29    2 months ago
so many different denominations of Jews

Sounds just like the other two religions in the triad.

 
 
 
Split Personality
PhD Principal
5.8  Split Personality  replied to  Tacos! @5    2 months ago
This story implies there is some kind of problem to be overcome.

No, I don't see that.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.8.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Split Personality @5.8    2 months ago

Nor do I.  It can only be a problem to someone who wants to MAKE it a problem, perhaps for some nefarious reason, such as to troll the comments to the article. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.8.2  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.8.1    2 months ago
It can only be a problem to someone who wants to MAKE it a problem, perhaps for some nefarious reason, such as to troll the comments to the article

If you think your divisive words apply to me, you are wrong. I never said it was a problem. I said it seemed like it appeared to be a problem for others. Some people here should probably read my comments more carefully and not assume I have said something they need to be offended by.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.8.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.8.2    2 months ago

I seems to me that it has been noted by a few members here, as indicated by their and my comments, that YOUR comments have not been merely inquisitive, but appear to have been delivered with somewhat of a chip on your shoulder, whether or not YOU think that is so is not even relevant.  If such were not your intention, then my comment should be considered a learning experience, but I expect otherwise.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.8.4  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.8.3    2 months ago
I seems to me that it has been noted by a few members here, as indicated by their and my comments, that YOUR comments have not been merely inquisitive, but appear to have been delivered with somewhat of a chip on your shoulder, whether or not YOU think that is so is not even relevant.

That is fascinating.

First of all, you continue to try to make this discussion about me, and not about the topic.

Second, you declare that if I state my own feelings, such a declaration is irrelevant and you know better than I what is in my heart.

That is just. Amazing.

I can't even fathom the depth and breadth of ego required to imagine that you can tell other people what they think over and above their own statements to the contrary.

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
5.8.5  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Tacos! @5.8.4    2 months ago

Why do you think you need to have "feelings" about what Jews do on Christmas ? 

Your expression of your feelings about what should be a non-judgmental topic is what seems to have gotten you into trouble on this seed.  

The article is purely a vehicle for information addressing a curiosity people may have had about the topic. It wasn't intended for commentary on the propriety of Jews eating in Chinese restaurants. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.8.6  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @5.8.5    2 months ago
Why do you think you need to have "feelings" about what Jews do on Christmas ? 

I have curiosity. Nothing more. I have said this several times. Why are you pestering me about being inquisitive?

Your expression of your feelings about what should be a non-judgmental topic is what seems to have gotten you into trouble on this seed. 

I'd bet real money you can't even articulate a sensible objection to anything I have actually said.

It wasn't intended for commentary on the propriety of Jews eating in Chinese restaurants.

Are you suggesting I have said Jews shouldn't eat Chinese food? Because I haven't.

Instead of just attacking me, why don't you try discussing the topic like I have? And if you want to attack something I have written, why don't you try using the blockquote function instead of pretending I said something offensive when I haven't?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.8.7  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.8.4    2 months ago
"...but I expect otherwise."

And I was right.   Point - Buzz     524-5246739_check-mark-emoji-symbol-royalty-free-clip-art.pngjrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

Oh, and by the way, perhaps you should read my comment again.  My point about relevance was not at all about your right to comment, it was in reference to the tone of your delivery, and whether or not you agreed with me made no difference to me.

 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.8.8  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.8.7    2 months ago

You're consistent at least. Every single comment you have made to me has been an attack at me and not about the topic or in reference to any specific thing I have said on the topic. The sad thing is that you're proud of it.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.8.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.8.8    2 months ago

LOL.  Well, a number of members seem to have the same feelings I do, so is there anyone here who agrees with you?  There is no attack on you, that would be flaggable, but it is a criticism of the fact that your comments seem to be delivered with a sort of unfriendly attitude, which really isn't necessary.  

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
5.8.10  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @5.8.9    2 months ago
Well, a number of members seem to have the same feelings I do

Who cares? "Being wrong" doesn't become "being right" just become somebody else behaves like you do.

There is no attack on you, that would be flaggable

I never said you broke a rule, but it's kind of pathetic that you seek to support yourself that way. My comments were about logic and discourse. i.e, Discuss the topic, not me. You shouldn't need the rules to tell you that your comments haven't been doing that. You can be accountable for the things you say and do even if I haven't chosen to flag it.

it is a criticism of the fact that your comments seem to be delivered with a sort of unfriendly attitude

I came here to comment on the seed and I have done that. I began my first comment with the acknowledgement and caution that it could be perceived as hostile, but should not be because that was never my intent. So, I was sensitive to the possible emotions involved in questioning the article's contents.

You have chosen to ignore that caution with every fiber of your being. So I have had no choice but to conclude that you are the one going out of his way to be unfriendly.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
5.8.11  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @5.8.10    2 months ago

IMPASSE

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
6  Krishna    2 months ago

I don't mean to sound hostile, but

Over the years I've come to recognize that form of construction to be a "red flag".

Whenever some makes a statement, and then follows it by a "But".

More often than not: what follows the comma and the "but"...actually contradicts the original statement.

A few examples might make this clearer-- what are the speakers inthe following examples actually trying to say?

What are they actually saying (or implying)?

-I'm not a racist, but....

-I'm a Vegetarian who never, ever eats meat, but...

-I don't have anything against you, but...

You're a really nice person, but...

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7  seeder  JohnRussell    2 months ago
I don't mean to sound hostile, but this may come off that way. I'm not hostile - just not sympathetic. This story implies there is some kind of problem to be overcome.

The article was written by a rabbi. I don't think he believes there is a problem to be overcome. 

Christmas is a religious holiday. I would imagine that most people of other religions dont think it is appropriate for them to take part in Christmas celebrations, yet they still have to live and do something on that day. This just answers something that some people may have been curious about from time to time. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1  Krishna  replied to  JohnRussell @7    2 months ago
Christmas is a religious holiday.

For many people. And-- its supposed to be. 

But there are some Christians  who have lost touch with the original meaning of Christmas.  And also some non-Christians who do celebrate Christmas as a non-religious holiday-- mainly, I believe, because they like the Christmas "vibe". 

The Christmas spirit. In many ways they are in touch with the true messages of Christmas, even though they are of another religion so don't necessarily "accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour" etc. 

Personally I don't like to sit around endlessly judging & criticizing other peoples' belief systems. 

I guess I don't understand why Jews would need or want a "Christmas tradition." It doesn't make sense.

Sure-- it doesn't make sense to the person who said that. But it probably makes sense to those Jews who do choose to "have a Christmas tradition". (otherwise they wouldn't do it).

Walk. . . Mile. . . Another's Mocassins!!!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.1    2 months ago
"Walk. . . Mile. . . Another's Mocassins!!!"

Tame, Krishna, I would be more explicit, as Bob Dylan was....

Positively 4th Street

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you.

Click this link to listen....

.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.1    2 months ago
Walk. . . Mile. . . Another's Mocassins!!!

And another "wise olde saying":

People who live in glass houses

Shouldn't undress in front of the window!

(Of course that's not the original. Had to google to find the author...it was actually an oldie but goodie...by Chaucer!)

And since its the Christmas season:

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

--John 8:7

Note: Its John 8:7-- of the famous 8:7 family of Galilee.  Not to be confused with John Russell of NT fame.

(or so I assume...???)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1.1    2 months ago

I've always loved Dylan. (Well, mainly his early stuff...)

Actually I have one of his albums with that on it. Don't remember which album, it was one his very early ones. IIRC used to have it on vinyl, now only have it on some CD somewhere around the house...

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.1.4  Bob Nelson  replied to  Krishna @7.1.3    2 months ago

Every time he changed his style, I was one of the curmudgeons who grumbled.

It took many years for me to accept that Bob knew I better.

Duh...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1.5  Krishna  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.1.4    2 months ago
Every time he changed his style, I was one of the curmudgeons who grumbled.

It took many years for me to accept that Bob knew I better.

Duh...

The man was brilliant!

I also didn't like it at least at first when he changed styles. I guess partly due to the fact that whatever his current style was was so incredible....I thought any change to such incredible art would be a let down. Of course it wasn't.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1.6  Krishna  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.1.4    2 months ago

Bob Dylan - Subterranean Homesick Blues

I believe I've read that some people say that this was the first music video? 

Brilliant in so many ways...even the fact that occasionally the words don't exactly match up with the cards...lends a sort of interesting "dissonance..."

I thought the alley might have been in Greenwich Village, but i googled it, it's actually is in London.

The Man in the background who looks a lot like Allen Ginsberg is...Allen Ginsburg!

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.1.7  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.1.6    2 months ago
I believe I've read that some people say that this was the first music video? 

Rumour has it that its a Christmas tradition amongst Jewish people to do "Chinese Take-out" on Christmas, sit under the Chanukah Tree in their homes, remove their masks, and watch Bob Dylan videos!

("Twitter Style Disclaimer": The rumour in this Tweet has not been proven to be factual)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.1.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.1.4    2 months ago

One of the iconic moments of my life as a folkie - I was witness to the moment of his public change from acoustic to electric.  I was in the audience at the 1965 Newport Folk Festival - what an unforgettable experience. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.1.9  Bob Nelson  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1.8    2 months ago

What was the public's reaction? I'm pretty sure I would not have liked it.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.1.10  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.1.9    2 months ago

The "booos" outshouted the "cheers".  But at the end, after both Pete Seeger and Peter Yarrow tried to calm down the audience, he came out to accoustically play "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue" - a very prophetic choice to close with.  

.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.1.11  Bob Nelson  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.1.10    2 months ago

He's good... very good!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  JohnRussell @7    2 months ago

I don't think eating Chinese food on Christmas is a particularly universal Jewish trend, but perhaps more localized, and appears to have become a kind of tradition among NYC Jews and perhaps in pcckets elsewhere.  It certainly wasn't the custom in Toronto, where there is a fairly substantial Jewish population.   

Sometimes, as in my case when I was growing up, my family went for a Chinese dinner every Sunday, because in those days wives usually stayed home and did all the housewife things like cooking all the meals all week long, and my mother was given a respite for one special meal a week, and in our case that was going to the Pagoda Restaurant in the city where I was born and grew up, every Sunday for dinner.  As it happens I continued that and went out for Chinese food at least once a week all the time in Canada, because I had developed a love for Chinese food, it's having been a special treat, and now I live in Chinese food paradise, and eat western food once in a while. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.1  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2    2 months ago
I had developed a love for Chinese food, it's having been a special treat,

Interesting.

What do the Chinese (those living in China) think of American food? Treat-- or torture? jrSmiley_7_smiley_image.png

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.1    2 months ago

Well, the success of McDonald's, KFC, Burger King here, and the fact that when I first came to China more than 14 years ago almost everyone was skinny, but now many (but thankfully not most) are looking to be on the verge of obesity, I would have to say that the Chinese people here have not wanted to pull off a Trumpism and ban what they feel is beneficial. 

 
 
 
JohnRussell
Professor Principal
7.2.3  seeder  JohnRussell  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2    2 months ago
I don't think eating Chinese food on Christmas is a particularly universal Jewish trend, but perhaps more localized, and appears to have become a kind of tradition among NYC Jews and perhaps in pcckets elsewhere. 

25 or 30 years ago my Jewish brother in law told me that his family always ate chinese food and went to a movie on christmas, and he is from san antonio texas. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.2.4  Bob Nelson  replied to  JohnRussell @7.2.3    2 months ago

My (Jewish) sister told me about Chinese food for Christmas decades ago. She lives near Boston.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.5  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.2    2 months ago
Well, the success of McDonald's, KFC, Burger King here

Actually I should've remembered that. As I may have mentioned, I trade in the Stock Market, and remember reading of the success of American food-- perhaps even other American things in general-- in China. 

Years ago IIRC I read that Amercian fast food chicken places were popular, but burgers not so much. And while the Chinese were not orignally big Coffee drinkers, Starbucks has become very popular.

And Apple products.

A while back I used to spend some time watching TikTok videos. One thing that struck me was was the interest in things American-- at least among the younger people..

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.2.4    2 months ago

@ JR and Bob

Okay, okay, maybe it's an American-Jewish thing, or even more broad-based.  I guess I just never paid any attention to it.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.7  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.5    2 months ago
A while back I used to spend some time watching TikTok videos. One thing that struck me was was the interest in things American-- at least among the younger people.

The Koreans really have a thing about American culture-- you can see it in K-Pop videos.


 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.8  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.5    2 months ago

You're quite right about Starbucks.  There's even one in the mall attached to my apartment building and it's fairly busy. I've never been in it because for about a tenth of the cost (if even that much) I brew my own coffee.  As for chicken burgers such as KFC sells, I have to laugh at the people who pay as much as they do to buy them because from the Chinese store that prepares the same deep-fried chicken burgers (a bit spicy, but that's okay) and sell 3 big ones (LOTS of big solid chicken chunks in each one) for 10 yuan (the equivalent of US$1.43, or less than 50 cents each) and they deliver them to my apartment door still hot FREE.  And they are delicious.  I eat one for dinner, then put the other two in the fridge and eat them after microwaving them the next two days. That might give you an idea of the difference in the cost of living between China and America. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.9  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.6    2 months ago
Okay, okay, maybe it's an American-Jewish thing, or even more broad-based.  I guess I just never paid any attention to it.

Well, apparently it is "a thing".. at least among some Jews.  But I wonder-- why would Jews specifically eat Chinese food on Christmas? Why not Mexican food? Or Indian (Desi) food? Or some other "exotic"cuisine?

It would appear that it may be due to the inner city areas where Jewish immigrants originally settled being next to the areas where Chinese immigrants settled? 

IIRC, both the San Francisco Chinatowns as well as NY City Chinatowns are adjacent to those cities' "Little Italy"? Would either or both be next to the original Jewish areas? Why wouldn't Jews eat italian food on Christmas?

(Plus, if they wanted to be eucumenical about it, they could eat a late dinner in Little Italy, go shopping there in Italian markets (yum!) or go home and nap-- and then attend one of those incredible Midnight Masses in one of those wonderful old Italian churches?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.10  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.8    2 months ago

A lot of smart American stock market people recommend Starbucks' stock. But interestingly, not because of its growth potential in the U.S. Rather, because of potential growth in China.

Most American CEOs want to  enter, and expand their business in China. Why? Mainly because of the huge population-- China represents a YUGE opportunity for new business. 

(It also used to be a good place for American companies to manufacture things-- even skilled labour was relatively inexpensive. But as China has become better off financially, wages have gone up-- so IIRC there are good workers in othercountries who skill offer low wages (particular SE Asia, maybe Inda, parts of S America).

I believe Apple has large manufacturing plants in China.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.11  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.10    2 months ago

I wonder how coffee got to be so popular in China--as the people were traditionally such big tea drinkers?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.12  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.9    2 months ago

Spadina Avenue in downtown Toronto was years ago where both Chinatown and the Jewish community lived side-by-side.  Eventually Jews moved farther north in the city while Chinatown remained and expanded and the street signs are now in Chinese and English.

1200px-Chinatown_toronto_spadina_avenue.JPG

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.13  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.8    2 months ago
You're quite right about Starbucks.  There's even one in the mall attached to my apartment building and it's fairly busy. I've never been in it because for about a tenth of the cost (if even that much) I brew my own coffee.

I do the same.

I think I've been in Starbucks here maybe 2 or 3 times in my life. mainly just to see what their coffees were like. Ok-- but much too sweet and or creamy for my taste. And way too expensive-- you could buy a simple meal in an inexpensive restaurant for the cost of some of their drinks!

Anyway I'm a "health Nut"-- never sue sugar or artificial sweetners-- ever! Everything I eat or drink always 100% organic.

I make my own coffee-- only Organic beans, drip (Chemex).  

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.14  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.12    2 months ago
Spadina Avenue in downtown Toronto was years ago where both Chinatown and the Jewish community lived side-by-side.

No "Little Italy" adjacent to Chinatown like in SFranscisco and NY?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.15  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.10    2 months ago

Of course the American corporations want to be in China - the government has just eradicated abject poverty, and its next step is poverty while there is a quickly growing middle class who are big consumers. Yes, wages are increasing (slave labour? LOL) but there are also lots of skilled labourers that are needed by the manufacturers.  With a population of 1.4 billion, there are a lot of consumers and they are buying American products, including lots of American brand vehicles.  There is NO WAY that Trump would have succeeded in pulling many American industries and retailers out of China unless he put their CEOs in jail. 

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
7.2.16  sandy-2021492  replied to  Krishna @7.2.9    2 months ago
Why wouldn't Jews eat italian food on Christmas?

That's covered in the article.  Italian food is less likely to be kosher - think veal Parmesan, which mixes meat and dairy.  Chinese cuisine doesn't usually contain dairy, so there's less risk of mixing meat and dairy.  I would assume Indian food is the same regarding dairy, but it seems that Chinese restaurants are more plentiful than Indian ones.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.17  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.11    2 months ago

Maybe coffee got popular in China BECAUSE of Starbucks, but I think only the middle and higher income groups drink it, but certainly not all of them - nobody in my wife's extended family or my wife are coffee drinkers. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.18  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.14    2 months ago

LOL.  I can't keep up with you.  Of course there's a "Little Italy" in Toronto that isn't too far away from Chinatown. I can recall that many years ago when Italy won the World Cup, the city closed the streets to through traffic and the celebrations were out in the street for hours. We used to go there for the best gelato and Italian meals.

 
 
 
Perrie Halpern R.A.
Professor Principal
7.2.19  Perrie Halpern R.A.  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.16    2 months ago

You got it, Sandy.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.20  Krishna  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.16    2 months ago
Why wouldn't Jews eat italian food on Christmas?
That's covered in the article.  Italian food is less likely to be kosher - think veal Parmesan, which mixes meat and dairy.  Chinese cuisine doesn't usually contain dairy, so there's less risk of mixing meat and dairy.  I would assume Indian food is the same regarding dairy, but it seems that Chinese restaurants are more plentiful than Indian ones.

I wonder...

If someone wanted to follow the Kosher rules, not mixing Meat and Dairy is only one part of it. The other part is when eating meat (even without Dairy) it must be Kosher meat. The meat in Chinese Restaurants is not Kosher meat. (Unless its a Chinese Kosher restaurnant...which might exist, probably aren't many).

And while many Italian dishes use Cheese, some don't. (For example Pasta in Garlic and Oil...or even many Tomato Sauces. 

But again, the problem would be that Meat in Italian restaurants isn't Kosher anyway.(If it was a Kosher italian restaurant there would be many non-Dairy dishes...possible to eat only Kosher Italian food).

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
7.2.21  sandy-2021492  replied to  Krishna @7.2.20    2 months ago
Was there any reason, beyond proximity, that Jews wound up eating Chinese food, as opposed to some other immigrant cuisine?
In terms of kosher law, a Chinese restaurant is a lot safer than an Italian restaurant. In Italian food, there is mixing of meat and dairy. A Chinese restaurant doesn't mix meat and dairy, because Chinese cooking is virtually dairy-free.
In Chinese-American cooking, if there is any pork [which is not a kosher food], it is usually concealed inside something, like a wonton. A lot of Jews back then — and even now — kept strict kosher inside the home but were more flexible with foods they ate at restaurants. Sociologist Gaye Tuchman wrote about this practice. She described [the plausible deniability of non-kosher ingredients] as safe treyf. [ Treyf is the Yiddish word for non-kosher.] A lot of Jews considered the pork in Chinese food to be safe treyf , because they couldn't see it. That made it easier to eat.
 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.22  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.20    2 months ago

I used to have several Vegan friends. (Vegan is like Vegetarian but stricter-- Vegans don't eat any Dairy at all! No animal products.). We had trouble finding suitable Indian restaurants. Indians like dairy-- some (all?) Hindus feel Cows are holy but eating dairy is OK-- even popular. (Ex: Raita, a popular yogurt dish).

Interestingly, while we tend to think of India as a Hindu country-- India has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world. Hindus eat Pork-- but never Beef! (Although they generally don't eat Pork, it isn't forbidden). Muslims eat beef-- but never Pork! (And then there are many Hindus who are Vegetarian).

There are also Jains and Buddhists in India-- Buddhists are Vegetarians (don't eat animals) , but Jains are vegans whichis even stricter (don't eat animals or even animal products).

Some Vegans, IMO, go a bit overboard-- they won't even eat Honey. (I used to be strictly 100% vegan for about a year. felt great, lost over 60 pounds without even trying). I also used to live on an Ashram for a little over 3 months-- they are strictly vegetarian but of course use dairy. Also many years ago spent about a week in an Ashram in the Bahamas...

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.23  Krishna  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.21    2 months ago
if there is any pork [which is not a kosher food], it is usually concealed inside something, like a wonton.

Doesn't count!

If its concealed but you eat it anyway-- its still Haram!

(Ooops-- I mean "Trafe"--that's the Jewish non-Kosher. "Haram" is the Muslem version of "not Kosher").

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.24  Krishna  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.21    2 months ago
A lot of Jews back then — and even now — kept strict kosher inside the home but were more flexible with foods they ate at restaurants.

Well, isn't that the same in all religions? Adherents go from those who are basically "not observant"--to those who mainly follow religious teachings -- to those who may only go to Church a few times a year, never open a Bible, but may occasionally try to follow their teachings of their religion? 

A lot of Jews back then — and even now — kept strict kosher inside the home but were more flexible with foods they ate at restaurants.

True-- Some but not all. Which means that those "flexible" ones  could easily find appropriate foods in an Italian restaurant. (If they weren't strict).

By the way, Google all you want. If the Jews in question actually followed the Kosher rules, they probably wouldn't eat any food in those places because they wouldn't use the plates or the Utensils! 

Degree of observance-- especially with religions that have been around a long time-- various from almost none at all-- to those who follow every nuance fanatically!

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
7.2.25  sandy-2021492  replied to  Krishna @7.2.24    2 months ago

Krish, I'm just trying to answer your question, which was "why Chinese food?"  Not really looking for an argument, and I didn't have to Google anything.  I just copied and pasted from the article.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.26  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.24    2 months ago
Degree of observance-- especially with religions that have been around a long time-- various from almost none at all-- to those who follow every nuance fanatically!

Incidentally, I've known several jews who aren't religious at all. Some are even Atheists!. Yet they have an extremely strong Jewish identity. They refer to themselves being "Culturally Jewish".

(Some delight in wolfing down Lobster...or eating delicious Meat and Cheese dishes! And many haven't seen the inside of a Temple in years, and can't remember the last time they even saw a Bible..or a prayer book! Yet the insist that they are strongly jewish..."Culturally Jewish")

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.27  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.21    2 months ago

There is more to it, Sandy,  Pork was banned (cloven hoofs) because pigs were deemed to be unclean, even diseased, perhaps because of the foods that they ate, or pigs' lifestyle, but pigs are raised quite differently in more modern societies, differing from the Middle East, so normally there isn't anything more "unclean" or diseased than there is of any other animal.  However, the requirement of not boiling the lamb in its mother's milk (as per that religious tenet) has remained more persuasive, so the mixing of dairy with meat is less acceptable.

Think of the adage about being as happy as a pig in shit.  That should tell you something about why pork was deemed unclean.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.28  Krishna  replied to  sandy-2021492 @7.2.25    2 months ago
Krish, I'm just trying to answer your question, which was "why Chinese food?"  Not really looking for an argument, and I didn't have to Google anything.  I just copied and pasted from the article.

Oh,sorry.

I sometimes fall into the trap of being a typical ENTP-- sometimes we like to debate things vigorously on a strictly  intellectual level...and sometimes slip into being insensitive to others feelings. Of all the 16 MBTI Types , We are perhaps most different from the 4 "S" types-- sometimes I find myself on a different wavelength than, say, an ISTJ. 

(FWIW, Buzz is also an ISTJ).

(If you want to know what an ENTP type is like, there are probably only 3 here on NT--  myself and Bob Nelson (although that's just a guess-- he never confirmed it). We can tend to be a bit feisty at times-- but we're basically "good at heart". 

(Sometimes we give in to our proclivity to do a little gentle trolling, LOL). Also, i know its no excuse, but I've been over worked lately, need to rest up more.

The third ENTP on NT, is Kavika-- but he's learned to tone it down a bit! And to be more considerate of others feelings.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.29  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.27    2 months ago

I've read that not too long ago, some people have been having a pig as a pet!

I'm not too familar with this,but i believe the preferred breed was called something like a "Viet-Namese Pot Bellied Pig". Haven't heard much about it lately-- now I believe some people-- especially in cities-- are taking Chickens as pets (?)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.30  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.29    2 months ago

In the movie Doc Hollywood, released almost 3 decades ago, Michael J. Fox gets a pig for a pet.  He is seen walking it in the trailer on this IMBd web site.

So maybe it isn't THAT unusual.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.31  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.2.22    2 months ago

Before I found my first wife I had a live-in hippie girl living with me for a while.  It was at a time when hippies got into brown rice diets, so she inssted we go on one, and I mean brown rice - three times a day.  I don't recall how much weight I lost or how lousy I started to feel, but it didn't seem to affect her at all. Then one day I walked around the corner, looked in the window of the restaurant that was there, and there she was, eating a hamburger.  I moved her out the next day. 

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.2.32  Bob Nelson  replied to  Krishna @7.2.26    2 months ago

As I understand it, a Jew is anyone whose mother is Jewish.

Alternatively, anyone who converts to Judaism - a fairly serious undertaking.

For many, Judaism is a religion in the same way Buddhism is a religion. YHVH is quite different from the Christians' God.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.2.33  Bob Nelson  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.27    2 months ago

Sanitation is undoubtedly at the origin of most religious dietary rules. In Islam as well as in Judaism.

... and then, of course, the rule-makers forgot the"why"...

Eating pork was effectively dangerous... then! It is not, now. So why does the rule subsist?

Thousands of years ago, people didn't make distinctions among their rules as we do. We have the law... and religious rules... and social strictures... Back in the day, it was just one big ball of yarn...

Some rules were miscategorized, as we gradually sorted them. "No pork" should have slid into "health", where it would have evolved with treatment of trichinosis... but for some reason "no pork" became a religious rule, so no justification is required.

Homo sapiens is just a name. 

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
7.2.34  Kathleen  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.27    2 months ago

Chickens are filthy. They will pick corn kernels out of other animals waste.  Pigs are very intelligent, who would think to roll in the mud to keep off the bugs!  It also keeps them cool. : )

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
7.2.35  sandy-2021492  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.30    2 months ago
So maybe it isn't THAT unusual.

I've had several neighbors who kept pot-bellied pigs as pets.  Not my thing, as I'm more of a cat person, but I hear they're very intelligent and good companions.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.36  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.2.31    2 months ago
It was at a time when hippies got into brown rice diets,

I remember that well! 

Actually, I've known a few people back then who did it-- it was quite a popular fad for a while. And people on the diet did eat a lot of Brown Rice!

But there were other things they ate a well.

IIRC, supposedly it was based on ancient Chinese Medicine, Bhuddism, etc. A major part of which has to do with balancing Yin and Yang.

There's a lot of validity to ancient Chinese medical principles (AKA "TCM" or "Traditional Chinese medicine"), Buddhism, and the principles of Yin and Yang. But unfortunately however, Michio Kushi, distorted many of those principles in forming his theories (these views led him to formulate this approach which he called "Microbiotics")

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.37  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.36    2 months ago

A few more points about this:

1. Brown Rice is actually much healthier than White Rice as its a "whole food". Its the the natural form of Rice-- the whole grain. White Rice is the same plant-- its merely natural Rice ("Brown Rice") with most of the healthy nutrients removed.

Personally, I don't eat White Rice but rather choose the healthier form. (Lately I've been even eating less of Brown Rice and more of so-called "Wild Rice").

2. Your Hippie gf was definitely a hypocrite! But nature is amazing-- her body was "speaking to her" and telling her than by eating only Brown Rice she was missing key nutrients.(Among other things: complete Protein, probably Zinc, and IIRC probably also Iron and some B Vitamins-- some that is present in significant quantities in Beef)

3. A person can be extremely healthy on a 100% Vegetarian diet (if they do it properly). How some people look at  fad diets as a type of religion. Some Vegetarians feed their pet cat a vegetarian diet. But cats are not meant to be Vegetarians -- they are carnivores! A 100% vegetarian diet for cats will have disastrous results!!! jrSmiley_5_smiley_image.png )

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.2.38  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kathleen @7.2.34    2 months ago

Is your real name "Charlotte"?

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.2.39  Bob Nelson  replied to  Krishna @7.2.37    2 months ago

A strict vegan will lack essential nutrients. Period.

The lack won't show up as quickly as for a cat - we're omnivorous rather than carnivorous - but we need some animal proteins.

Sooner or later, "fabricated food" will be available that has everything the body requires. Personally, I see no moral difference between animals and plants - they're all living things - so I'll wait. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.40  Krishna  replied to  Bob Nelson @7.2.39    2 months ago
A strict vegan will lack essential nutrients. Period.

Which ones?

I was strictly Vegan for over a year and was in excellent health.

The main reason people who are Carnivores (well, OK-- Omnivores) mention the need for animal protein is that they are thinking of the need for "Complete Protein". A Complete Protein is one that has all the essential Amino Acids.

And they tend to obsess about the alleged lack Calcium in a dairy free diet.

1. PROTEIN: IIRC, few Plants have Complete Protein except Soy. Also Quinoa, and I believe Buckwheat (AKA "Kasha").. perhaps a few others. And certain Algae but that's not significant.

However there are many people that live long healthy lives  as total Vegans. One thing they do is "Food Combining". Basically that means eating some foods that lack a single Essential Amino Acid with another that also lacks a single Essential Amino Acid-- but a different one.

Many indigenous peoples somehow know this.

This is a bit over-simplified, but perhaps the most common example is eating no animal protein but eating Rice (low in Lysine but high in Methionine)+ Beans (Low in Methionine but it is high in Lysine).

Actually,Rice & Beans is a specific example-- doesn't have to be specifically Rice + Beans. What it really is is combing a Grain with a Legume. (Oats + Lentils also works. Etc.).

The only other missing nutrient that could also be missing from a Vegan diet is B-12. To be certain to avoid that, most Vegans take a B-12 supplement. 

(Many Vegans aren't too strict about it, and will take a any common one-- even though most B-12 supplements are of Animal origin. If they are strict about Vegan , there are vegan B-12 supplements but I believe they are expensive. (IIRC vegan b-12 supplements come entirely or in part from Algae).

Iron? No problem ns a good vegan diet.

Calcium? Well, a head of Kale has as much or more Calcium than a glass of milk! And-- Calcium from plant sources is much easier for the body to assimilate than Calcium from Animal sources.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.2.41  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @7.2.40    2 months ago

A strict vegan will lack essential nutrients. Period.

Which ones?

I was strictly Vegan for over a year and was in excellent health

BTW, I know  there have been some very muscular-- and very healthy-- body-builders who Vegetarian...and probably some who are Vegan. 

Now all of this raises an interesting question. Since most people are sure that a Vegan diet is unhealthy and doesn't have all essential nutrients..why do they believe this?

(Actually the whole topic of "beleifs", how they work and how and why people have them, has always fascinated me. But that a bit off topic now).

Well, when I told people (those who were a variant of "Muggle") I was going Vegan, the two most common responses were-- Veganism isn' thealthy you are would be missing certain nutrients. Wahen pressed (I asked which ones) the repsonses were almost always the same: Protein and Calcium.

Now to leave the field of Nutrition for a bit and switch over to Politics.

I have learned a lot about both. And one interesting tidbit is about powerful Washington lobbies. Two of which are The Dairy Lobby and the NCBA (National Cattlemen's Beef Association) Lobby.

Think about that a bit before we continue this discussion... jrSmiley_9_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
sandy-2021492
PhD Principal
7.2.42  sandy-2021492  replied to  Krishna @7.2.41    2 months ago

A strict vegan will lack vitamin B12.  They must supplement. There are no good plant-based sources of B12.

 
 
 
Bob Nelson
Professor Principal
7.2.43  Bob Nelson  replied to  Krishna @7.2.40    2 months ago

I'm not a dietician, but Google is my friend: "nutrients missing in vegan diet".

It looks to me like dietary complements can easily cover the gap, but without complements, there would eventually be trouble.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
7.3  Tacos!  replied to  JohnRussell @7    2 months ago
yet they still have to live and do something on that day

Of course. But do they have to do something special? Something unusual? Something that pushes at the very boundaries of their fundamental beliefs like eating kosher?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.3.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Tacos! @7.3    2 months ago

Funny, I thought America was the home of the brave and LAND OF THE FREE.  So YES, they DO HAVE to do whatever they want that is not contrary to the law of the land and NOBODY has the right to even QUESTION it. 

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
7.3.2  Tacos!  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.3.1    2 months ago

I never said they didn't have the right. 

NOBODY has the right to even QUESTION it

America is also the land of free speech, so I have the right to question anything I like. Questioning and discussing things is also supposed to be the purpose of this site.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
7.3.3  Gsquared  replied to  Tacos! @7.3    2 months ago

Do you think that most Jews follow Kosher dietary rules?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.3.4  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.3.1    2 months ago

YES, they DO HAVE to do . . . 

Its true-- they do have to do something special! Its the law-- and in fact Jews that don't do something special (like not eating Kosher) are rounded up by the police-- immediately imprisoned (without a tria, natch l) and immediately tortured to death.

Or worse!

So yes-- they DO HAVE TO do it...

( Everybody knows that)

jrSmiley_10_smiley_image.gif

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.3.5  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.3.1    2 months ago
Funny, I thought America was the home of the brave and LAND OF THE FREE.  So YES, they DO HAVE to do whatever they want that is not contrary to the law of the land and NOBODY has the right to even QUESTION it. 

Raises an interesting question:  What to do with a Troll, a really nasty one?

Who's only goal is to create discord & anger. Clever manipulators, real psychopathic sickos with an obsessive need for attention!

What to do? If violating the rules, report them, but eventually they figure out how to "tote' the line". Other people fall for their manipulations, and engage them in discussion. (I've done it myself..).

I'm thinking we should totally ignore them. 

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

(Of course this is all hypothetical. Fortunately we don't have Trolls here on NT. But if we did the best thing would be to totally ignore these trouble-,makers!!!

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
7.3.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @7.3.4    2 months ago

Why I wrote "they DO HAVE to do" was to throw back at him his... 

"do they have to do" 

to show how ridiculous that comment was.  Your original comment about the trolling made me feel you didn't catch that, but your second one corrected my concern. All of his comments on this article have actually provided an excellent display of "skirting" the technique of trolling. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.3.8  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @7.3.6    2 months ago
an excellent display of "skirting" the technique of trolling. 

Well, as I may have mentioned, on occasion I can be more than a bit "anti-Semantic", but the fact is I have always been fascinated by words, meanings, what emotions a particular word evokes, etc. I don't know if I mentioned this,but when I first went for Vocational Counseling" (in Junior High School) one of the top careers recommended for me was..lawyer! 

I have noticed that NT uses the word "skirting". Interestingly, toward the end that other site (the one several of us were on, the site "whose name shall not be mentioned")...toward they end they hired a new moderator. 

"Skirting the CoC is somewhat similar to the expression "Toeing the line").One aspect of that might be getting away with as much as you can, but being careful "not to cross the line" Well, their new moderator somehow got it confused, and keep using the expression "Toting the line"! (When she obviously meant to say "Toeing the Line").

Needless to say, some NV users mocked her mercilessly for that (Behind her back:, of course)....LOL!

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
7.3.9  Tacos!  replied to  Gsquared @7.3.3    2 months ago

I have no idea. Why do you ask?

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
7.3.10  Krishna  replied to  Gsquared @7.3.3    2 months ago
Do you think that most Jews follow Kosher dietary rules?

I have some Jewish friends...and have known many over the years.

My experience is that the majority of them don't.

(Of the ones that do,there are some sects that are very strict about it. And then there are some that do somewhat-- but aren't too rigid about it).

Currently, of those I currently know--at least those who I am in frequent contact with I don't know a single person who follows those rules at all.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
7.3.11  Gsquared  replied to  Tacos! @7.3.9    2 months ago

It seemed from your comment that you might be under that misapprehension.  No other reason.

 
 
 
Tacos!
PhD Guide
7.3.12  Tacos!  replied to  Gsquared @7.3.11    2 months ago

I'm only exploring the depths of the story offered. Nothing more. People who imagine they are defending something have chosen to attack me without actually paying attention to the words I have written. Because I didn't just say "wow that's awesome!" they have decided I must be anti-semitic or something. Frankly, it's one of the more profound failures of reading comprehension I have seen in a while. Even for this site.

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
9  Kathleen    2 months ago

I have two Jewish friends and they both eat at home for Christmas. They have no problem with Christians celebrating the Christmas season. I guess the best thing is for everyone to be considerate to all celebrating their holiday's. There just happens to be a lot of people in the United States that celebrate Christmas, so it will be everywhere. That is just the way it is. I have no problem with holidays I do not celebrate, so I would think that someone else should have no problem with the ones I celebrate. 

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1  Krishna  replied to  Kathleen @9    2 months ago
I have no problem with holidays I do not celebrate, so I would think that someone else should have no problem with the ones I celebrate. 

You strike me as one of the more tolerant people here on NT.  And one thing I've noticed about tolerant people-- many of them don't understand how some people can be so intolerant! (At least early on in life)

Long ago it used to surprise me how bigoted many people are. But eventually I grew to understand more about it. (I also learned more about it, and how a society can promote that kind of hatred when I was an activist in The Civil Rights Movement in the South in the 60's)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.1    2 months ago

You're lucky and we're all happy you weren't working with Shwerner, Goodman and Chaney.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.2  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.1    2 months ago
You're lucky and we're all happy you weren't working with Shwerner, Goodman and Chaney.

Believe me. that thought crossed my mind ...several times. Although I was in North Carolina at the time, and when there were daily marches and sit-ins down Franklin St (the main street of town) it should be pointed outthat the town was Chapel Hill, N.C. the home of the University of N.C. Still much racism there,but by no means as crazy as it was in states like Mississippi (probably the single most racist state in the country at the time).

And the governor was Terry Sanford. Not totally anti-racist, but one of the best Southern governors in that regard..at the time. Since then, at times...N.C. has regressed. (Back then, neighbouring Va was one of the worst-- since then over time its really made a lot of positive progress...)

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.3  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.1    2 months ago
You're lucky and we're all happy you weren't working with Shwerner, Goodman and Chaney.

I imagine many people now-a-days aren't familiar with that. Here's a link to the Wikipedia coverage:

Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @9.1.3    2 months ago

Or they can watch the movie "Mississippi Burning".

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
9.1.5  Kathleen  replied to  Krishna @9.1    2 months ago

I have always looked at people for what is in their hearts Krishna. I don’t care what race or religion you are. Although some people have gone too far on here and I want nothing to do with them. I don’t like being that way... but I have no choice.

We are all connected somehow. It’s a shame that people judge others the way they do. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
9.1.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kathleen @9.1.5    2 months ago
"We are all connected"

That is a Native American expression - and so very very true.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.7  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @9.1.6    2 months ago
We are all connected"
That is a Native American expression - and so very very true.

And not only in that tradition-- its found in many others.

People in many indigenous cultures were aware of that. But as society began, and became, there arose the need for "specialists". And one type of specialist was the spiritual consultant, some sort of "priest". 

And they formed organizations-- the job of which was (at first) to guide individuals toward their spirituality-- and the "Higher Power".

But as their religious organizations grew their de-facto purpose gradually changed from helping  people get in touch with their spirituality-- to instead-- preserving and increasing their own power!

The world went from being truly "Spiritual" to being "Religious".

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
9.1.8  Krishna  replied to  Krishna @9.1.7    2 months ago
The world went from being truly "Spiritual" to being "Religious".

The original, true, spirituality is still present, even  IIRC in many religions of indigenous peoples. But in more "modern" religions there are sects, or groups who are still really in touch with the Divine.

I'm not too knowledgable re: western religions, but there are Christian denominations (often called "Mystical"), the Sufis in Islam, and of course the Kabbalah in Judaism. In the east, various branches of Hinduism, and Buddhism. (I am not a big fan of religion in general, but the Spiritual path that comes closes to my views is perhaps Taoism...as well as some parts of Buddhism, and probably all of Taoism, and of course The Kabbalah..

(Interestingly, some of the teachings of ancient Hinduism are very similar to the latest discoveries in Quantum Physics!)

BTW, the reason I posted this (somewhat meandering) comment is mention that is Kathleen's comment that:

We are all connected

The latest discoveries in the most advanced Physics have come to that very conclusion!!! 

 
 
 
charger 383
PhD Quiet
10  charger 383    2 months ago

Now I am hungry for Chinese food 

 
 
 
Kathleen
PhD Principal
10.1  Kathleen  replied to  charger 383 @10    2 months ago

Me too! 

I think I might order some tonight..

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.1.1  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Kathleen @10.1    2 months ago

I don't just THINK it, I KNOW it.  LOL

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  charger 383 @10    2 months ago

No longer a problem for me.  LOL

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
10.2.1  Gsquared  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2    2 months ago

You almost don't have any choice.  Unless you want KFC...

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.3  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gsquared @10.2.1    2 months ago

KFC?  LOL  Did you read my comment above?

In any event, there are no Kosher butchers anywhere here that I know of, although I suppose there are Hallal ones, which would be an alternative.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.4  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gsquared @10.2.1    2 months ago

I think that if a very religious Jew wanted to live in China  they would be best off in Beijing or Shanghai where there might be Kosher butchers, and if so, possibly Kosher restaurants, and by the way, not only meat but also fowl requires to be obtained from a Kosher butcher. Otherwise religious Jews would have to get their protein from fish, and the only food from the sea/lake/river that is permissable is that which has scales. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
10.2.5  Gsquared  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2.3    2 months ago
Did you read my comment above?

Yes, I did.  And we had KFC at the train station in a couple of cities in China waiting for our train.

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.6  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gsquared @10.2.5    2 months ago

It makes sense that Americans would come to China to eat American food.  Unfortunately I've never seen poutine here, but Tim Horton's is starting to open up in China and I wish one would open near where I live - it will be like a connection to my home town to spend a meal there.  The very first Tim Horton's opened in my home town, where I was born and grew up.  And Tim was one of the champion Maple Leafs during their golden years. 

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
10.2.7  Gsquared  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2.6    2 months ago

We didn't go to China to eat American food.  It happened that my wife's nephew, who had been living in China for 15 years, grabbed KFC for us at the train station while we were waiting.  It was convenient.  They did take us to a German restaurant in Shanghai one night, but we had hamburgers there.  I think it was a German restaurant.  Other than that, as far as I remember, for the rest of our 3 week trip, we only ate Chinese food.

 
 
 
Krishna
Professor Principal
10.2.8  Krishna  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2.3    2 months ago

In any event, there are no Kosher butchers anywhere here that I know of, although I suppose there are Hallal ones, which would be an alternative.

Just be sure to avoid those butchers that are Trefe (or, as an alternative, those that are Haram!)

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.9  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gsquared @10.2.7    2 months ago

LOL  Don't fret.  I make myself American breakfasts most of the time, and when I make breakfast for others besides myself I make pancakes or French toast.  As well, although most of the time I eat Chinese food, I have also eaten in McDonalds, Pizza parlours, Indian food,  made my own hamburgers, and I do eat hot dogs now and then.  However, it has been much too long since I was able to enjoy a filet mignon.  As for Jewish food, actually my wife makes a delicious chicken soup after I told her what veggies to put in it. 

 
 
 
shona1
Freshman Participates
10.2.10  shona1  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2.9    2 months ago

Morning buzz. How do you do your french toast...my grand mother use to use dripping in the pan. Soak bread in egg and milk fry it and when golden one side flip it over. Then blackberry jam and a touch of salt. I still do it that way now...has to be white bread as well.

 
 
 
Gsquared
Freshman Principal
10.2.11  Gsquared  replied to  Buzz of the Orient @10.2.9    2 months ago

One of my favorite things on our trips to England as been having the "Full English Breakfast", or "Full Irish Breakfast", when we visited Ireland.  It seems like a Chinese breakfast is congee.  My question for you, is there such a thing as a "Full Canadian Breakfast"?

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.12  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  shona1 @10.2.10    2 months ago

Yes, I use white bread as well, soaked in a mix of egg and milk, but then I sprinkle cinnamon on one sde before putting it in the pan which I had already coated with butter, fry both sides for about a minute each, and then to eat it when still hot we spread honey on one side. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.13  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Gsquared @10.2.11    2 months ago

Not specifically.  Some restaurants in Toronto (Frans, for example) serve what they call a "Big Breakfast" which consists of orange juice and coffee, three scrambled eggs, buttered toast with jam, tomato slices, bacon and sausages.  I ate that many times while a student. 

 
 
 
Buzz of the Orient
Professor Principal
10.2.14  Buzz of the Orient  replied to  Krishna @10.2.8    2 months ago

My wife does the grocery shopping.  She buys the meats and everything else and we don't at all seek out Hallal or Kosher.  She grew up on a farm and really knows her veggies and fruits, buys direct from farmers whenever she can.  There are small farms within walking distance.  She has gone into a wild field and come back in a while with enough edible greens from the field and the trees and bushes for us to have a delicious green lunch. 

 
 
 
Kavika
Professor Principal
12  Kavika     2 months ago

Being part of a family that is American Indian, Jewish, and Hawaiian every Christmas we have Chinese, Frybread, and Pineapple upside-down cake. 

The dinner of true All Americans. 

 
 
 
Raven Wing
Professor Principal
12.1  Raven Wing  replied to  Kavika @12    2 months ago

Same in this Native American household. Although, there are no Hawaiian or Jewish members in my family. But, that does not mean we can't eat like them. Lol!!

And there is no meal served in this house without Frybread. 

 
 
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